Dr. Shannon Ritchey: Why You’re Not Seeing Results in The Gym (Do THIS 4-Part Strength Framework to Completely Transform your Body

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Hey everyone, welcome back to on purpose the place you come to become the happier, healthier

and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I've wanted to talk to for quite some time now

because she's going to help us do exactly that. Dr Shannon Richie is a physical therapist and the

founder of Evalo Fitness, a rapidly growing science-backed fitness platform helping thousands of

people rethink everything they've been taught about exercise. If you feel like you're doing

everything right in the gym, but still not seeing results, this conversation will change the way

you think about fitness. Please welcome to on purpose, Shannon Richie. Shannon, it's great to have

you here. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. A lot of us are trying to apply all this advice we

hear on social media and on the internet and everywhere else, but we're not seeing the change in our

body. Yes. And you've spent years now helping people do exactly this. So the first thing I want to

do with you is actually start by busting some myths. I want to dive right in. Yeah. Okay. I

feel like we should just get right in there. Let's do it. Yes. The first one is you'll only lose weight

if you're doing tons of cardio. This is such a pervasive one. And I think that the reason it's so

damaging is because A, it doesn't really work and I'll explain why in a moment. And B, it makes us

believe that our workouts need to smash us in order to be effective. And what people do is they add

endless amounts of exercise. And they don't see results. So they either give up and burn out and

they become less active overall, which we know is not good. Or they double down and they work even

harder. And this burns them out more. And as a physical therapist, I saw this all the time.

Then you're in my office with joint pain and disrupted hormones. And you feel horrible. You have a

horrible mindset around exercise. So I think that when you learn the science, it really helps you

focus on the right things. And more than that, it helps you redefine what an effective workout

looks like and your mindset around exercise improves. So all that to say, here's why exercise is

just not a very efficient tool for fat loss. So studies consistently find that adding cardio without

nutritional changes results in really underwhelming weight loss, maybe just a few pounds over a year.

And that's a long time to be working out really hard and only have like a few pounds of a difference.

And the reason for this is because our body compensates. So our body doesn't like large energy

deficits. So as we add more exercise, your body adapts to burn fewer calories in other places

throughout your body so that you stay within this narrow window of calorie expenditure. So

overall, we're burning far fewer calories than we think when we add exercise. And at the same

time, people typically can easily eat to replace those calories or sometimes even overeat because

they've overestimated how much they've burned. And this can make them either not see very great

results or sometimes even gain weight when they're adding exercise, feeling like they're working

really hard and not seeing results. So that's why I just like to recommend separating exercise and

fat loss. If fat loss is your goal, you're so much better off focusing on nutrition and strength

training, which hopefully we can get into a lot, but strength training so that you are at least

maintaining or maybe even building muscle so that any weight loss is coming from fat, not muscle.

The next one is no pain, no gain, which I think kind of speaks to what you just spoke about.

Like this idea of just destroying yourself in the gym. But what's your take on no pain, no gain?

I think that this comes from decades of marketing and messaging that especially in American culture,

that we need to hustle and we need to work harder. And then if it doesn't hurt and it's not brutal,

it's not going to change your body. And like I just discussed, we see that that type of workout

doesn't necessarily result in a lot of weight loss or body composition changes, which is typically

why people do those types of workouts. So you feel like you're working out really, really hard,

but you're not actually seeing results. So I like to teach people, okay, what is this stimulus that

does change your body composition? And you'll find that when you apply the right things,

you no longer feel like you have to smash yourself. You no longer feel like no pain, no gain is the

only way. And when you start to do this, not only will you see better results, but you'll feel more

consistent with exercise because it doesn't physically drain you as much and it doesn't mentally

drain you as much. It's easier to show up for. It's what we call gentle consistency. So yeah,

I'm not a believer in no pain. Okay. Okay. Very, very clear again. This one running ruins your

knees. Running does not ruin your knees if it's in the right amounts. If you overdo any forms of

exercise, your joints will pay for it. And again, we saw that I saw this as a physical therapist all

the time. You get tendonitis from overuse or joint wear and tear. So adding running doesn't

inherently rack your knees. It's that it has to be in the right amounts. And you have to progress

up to it appropriately. The problem is many people start running again to lose weight and they

overdo it. And they don't see the weight loss. So they either add more of her themselves out

and their body hurts because it's just too much for their body to handle. Their body hasn't

adapted to that stress yet. Got it. Wow. I feel like I'm learning so much already. And I feel like

these are these are things that we hear everywhere, right? Like these are things that your parents

said to you, your friends are saying to you and they kind of get stuck in our minds. And then we

never even question them. Right. And so, okay, got a couple more of these before we dive into some

deeper subjects here. You must work out every day. I do not believe that you should work out every day.

At least not intense exercise every day. Your body needs recovery. If we look at, I like to think

about exercise as this stimulus recovery adaptation loop. And you need all three of those things.

So the stimulus is the workout. And what you do in your workout matters. There is high quality

stimulus and low quality stimulus. We can get into all of this. But you need a high quality

stimulus. And then you need to give your body time to adapt and repair. And that repair process

is the magic. And that's what people want to skip right past and just go right up to that

adaptation of the results because they they're impatient. And they just want to see results faster.

But your body does not adapt when it is overstressed. It adapts when it gets the appropriate stress.

It has time to recover. And then that's when you build muscle and prove endurance,

improve whatever you're you're setting out to do. So recovery is a big piece of that. And so I do

believe that taking days off active recovery days. It's not like you're just sitting on the couch

all day long. We still want to be active overall. But taking days off structured exercise is very

important. Thank you for allowing me to have my two days off. You're welcome. You take two,

which is exactly what I would recommend. Like take those days. You still want to do things,

but not smashing your body because your body needs time to repair. Otherwise, you'll just spend

in chronic low grade inflammation. So yes, I that's perfect. You're doing the right thing.

Yeah. Okay. A couple more of these women shouldn't lift heavyweights because they'll make them bulky.

This is not true. If we look at this bulky appearance that typically involves a lot of muscle mass.

And muscle mass takes at least three months to build substantial amounts of it. And beyond that,

it takes years to develop these physics that most women would consider bulky.

So lifting heavy does not inherently create that bulky appearance. What creates that bulky

appearance is usually years of training, usually training at high volumes. And potentially also having

fat on top of your body so that you just have more mass in general. So yes, that is a myth that

lifting heavyweights immediately makes you bulky. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that that one's

lasted far too long. Too long. Okay. This one. Let's do abs are made in the kitchen.

This is kind of true. Kind of not. So you can build your abdominal muscles through focused

abdominal work. But in order to see the muscle underneath. And this goes for any muscle not just

your abdominals, you have to have less body fat on top to see the muscle. And this goes for your

shoulder muscles, your leg muscles, all of the muscles. But we think of the abs different

than the rest of our body for some reason. But yes. So in order to see the muscle underneath,

you have to have a low enough body fat percentage. So diet is important for that. But also you can

build your abdominal muscles through exercise. So it's a little bit of both. Okay, brilliant. Great,

great start. This is very useful already to kind of get us out of these kind of limiting beliefs

that we have. These structures that have kind of been set up over time. And I feel like so much

of working out and so much of getting fit and healthy. If someone listened to all your advice today

and they practically applied it, they followed your program. What would change in their life?

The first thing is just seeing better physical results. I think that that is important for people

not only aesthetically, but your health. Having more muscle and having a more fit body is important

for our health. But beyond that, smashing your body less and having a better relationship with

your body and exercise and not feeling guilty for taking days off, not feeling guilty when you take

a week off for vacation, knowing that not everything is going to fall apart with you back off

a little bit or if you're sick. So helping people understand the science of how our body adapts

and changes really is this holistic approach. You see better results. You have a better mindset

around your body and exercise and your body feels better physically. You don't feel so worn down

and depleted and exhausted because you're not smashing yourself every single day.

Yeah, it feels like there's such a mindset piece there as well. Yes. Because what you're saying is

we're trying to accelerate those results. We want to see the mace app. And because of that,

we'll push ourselves to our limits. Those limits mean we give up sooner. We can't stick to a

schedule. And then all of a sudden in two months of your lucky, you're giving up if not in two weeks

because you're just so exhausted and depleted. Yes. And I see that cycle over and over and over and

over. And it's one of the reasons why people are not saying results because we have the rest of

our lives to work out, which means we need to be smart about how we're treating our bodies. We

can't put our bodies through the ringer and expect that to be sustainable. And so the sooner you

can learn the stimulus that changes your body, because I'm not saying that your work out should be

easy. I'm not saying that. But I am saying having the correct effort and placing your body

under correct load in the right amounts, adding in cardio, having your rest days, having this

balanced approach will get you so much further than this kind of start, stop, yo, yo mentality that

so many of us kind of end up doing. And I even have my own experience with this because I've been in

the fitness and treat for like 15 years. And so I've taken all of the certifications, done all the

things. And five, 10 years ago, I was smashing my body with exercise. I was doing all of the things

that women are taught to do to get fit. Light weights, high rep, no recovery days, trying to burn

as many calories as possible, trying to get really sweaty. And all this did for my body was,

leave me with so, so fitness results. Like it kind of got me a little bit of the way there. But I

was like, I'm just not working hard enough. I need to go work harder. And my body had chronic pain

all over. So at the age of 24, I felt like I was 90. My body was completely falling apart. My

wrists were always hurting. I had chronic back pain, hip pain. But this is what so many of us are

taught in this as a physical therapist. When I was practicing, I saw so many of my patients dealing

with the same things. They thought that they weren't seeing results because they just weren't working

hard enough. But their body hurt all over because of their workout. So I do think that when you can

shift to what works because when I shifted, I got in the best shape of my life. I built eight pounds

of muscle and lost five pounds of fat over one year. And over that time, I worked out for far

less than I ever had. I used to work out for like 60 minutes and then started working out for

like 35 minutes. Rarely did I burn very many calories or break a sweat. My body didn't hurt. I had

a better mindset around exercise. And yes, I also saw the best physical results that I had ever seen.

So yeah, it comes from first understanding and learning the science and then applying it over

and over and over and giving your body long enough. What's something that scientists taught you

about our bodies that you think we're unaware of or ignore? I think one of the biggest mistakes I see

like we talked about is using exercise as a tool to burn fat or lose fat or using it as your primary

tool. But then what people do is they're like, okay, I'm going to use my workouts to build muscle.

Great. Love that. But they still end up doing the wrong workouts that don't build muscle. And one

kind of really helpful reframe that helped me is differentiating between muscle fatigue and

muscle failure. So the science shows that to build muscle, you need to train close to failure

in every single exercise, every single set. You don't have to train all the way to failure,

you can, or you can stop one to three reps shy. So failure means that you are physically

unable to do another rep. So let's say you're doing bicep curls. You cannot physically do another rep

despite your best efforts. You can do anywhere from four-ish reps all the way up to 30 reps or

anywhere in between. You can just choose what you prefer. But your last rep needs to be really

challenging. But I think often what people do is they confuse fatigue with failure. Let's,

I used to do this all the time. I would go to a group fitness class and be holding like a lunge

position for like three, five minutes straight. And that feels really hard and really fatiguing and

lots of burn, lots of shake. But it's not fatigue does not reliably build muscle failure does.

So one really helpful tool that I like to give people that's changed the game for me and for

our membership. And many people that I talked to is called the rest test. So this will help you

differentiate between fatigue and muscle failure. I don't know this, yeah.

Yes. So you'll have to try this too in your next workout. So what you do is do your final rep.

And if you think you are at failure or near failure, set the way down, break for like five

seconds, shake out, take a tiny little break just a few seconds, pick up the weights and try to do

more reps. If you could do three or more reps, you were just fatigued, you were not close to true

muscular failure. And so that just means go up and wait next time or do more reps so that you get

closer to that true muscular failure point because that will be the potent stimulus that changes

your body so much more than fatigue. Well, that's huge. I mean, that's such a big one. I feel like

and it's something that my body naturally makes me want to do. Like I know it's like if I've done

10 reps of something and we're trying to get to 15 at 10, my body's like, all right, I need to take

a little three second break. I need to put the white weights down, shake it off, pick them back up

and then I'm like, oh, I could do another 10 now. And you're saying I have to. That's what you're

saying is that I should do another 10 if I can. But rather than just hit the 15. Well,

what I'm saying is when it starts to get hard around that 10 rep range, those are the most

stimulating reps. So the reps where you are closest to failure are the most important ones.

Right. So let's say you're trying to go to 15 and at 10, that's when you're starting to struggle.

That is the time to push through and continue trying to get to 15. Even if you don't get to 15,

it's not about the number. It's about proximity to failure. So on that 10th rep, you're really,

really struggling. Try to do a couple more reps, try not to break, because that means you're

reaching a big percentage of the muscle overall. You're reaching what's called your type two muscle

fibers. They're the ones that kick in when you have a powerful stimulus when there's a lot of

mechanical tension. So those last few reps are the most important.

Got it. So actually I shouldn't pause at 10. I should push myself to maybe 12 or whatever is

realistic. Then shake it off. And then what should I do after that?

Then shake it off. If you find you could pick your weights up and do three or more reps,

that means the weight wasn't heavy enough. So that means go heavier and try to get to whatever

rep range you can do. And I like to not count reps. And this is like kind of controversial.

Okay. Going because I think when you put 15 in your head, you grab a weight that you feel like

you could do for 15. But really you could probably do 20, 30 with that with that weight.

Whereas if you just grab a weight that feels challenging and you're like, I don't know how many

reps I could do. Maybe somewhere between like eight and 15 anywhere in there is great because all

of that will work for muscle growth. And you just do as many as you possibly can use often

surprise yourself at how strong you are and how many reps you can do. And like I said,

getting close to that muscular failure point is the most important part. But it's that piece that

so many people are missing because they're stopping when they're tired. I fully agree with you.

I know for a fact that when I'm telling my brain, I've only got to do 10 of these. Yes.

I've just programmed my upper limit. And there are times when I'll do 10 and I know I could have done

13. Yes. But I'm only trying to hit 10. I did 10. I did. I did what I was supposed to do.

I did the thing. Totally. But you're not, you might that set might not be very stimulating.

If you apply this one tool, it can change your results. I couldn't agree more. I feel like I've been,

I've been sometimes doing it right, but I can tell I'm doing it wrong too. Like what's the,

what is the cost of stopping at 10 and then just doing another set? Like what is the cost of

not listening to your advice? Growing muscle. We see that if you want to build muscle, those are

the most important reps. This isn't to say that doing 10 reps is and you could do 15. That's not

to say that those 10 reps are useless. You're still building strength. You're building neuromuscular

connection. You are improving your stability. All of those things are important adaptations that

come along with strength training. But when it comes to building muscle, yeah, those last few reps

just can't be treated. Let's stick on this building muscle. Things are already, I assume that

that's one of the top three things people come to you with. Yes. So we're talking about this

rep range. We're talking about the ability to push past, know the difference between fatigue and

failure. What else are we getting wrong about building muscle? Because that's something that I

think you've clarified that for me in a way that I haven't heard before and that's huge for me.

Okay. And I know I can take that into my next workout, which is tomorrow. Thankfully,

no way. Tomorrow's Wednesday. Yes, tomorrow. Yes. Tomorrow's not Thursday. So yes, tomorrow I

can take that into my workout. Let me know how that goes. Because it's, I'm going to be thinking about

that the whole time. Good. So when I start a set and my trainer who I have, my PT is going to

say to me, we're going to do four rounds of this. And we're usually doing four rounds of roughly

three activities. Great. Love it. Right. And then we're doing another four rounds of another

three activities. Great. And then maybe doing another three rounds of another two or three activities

in one workout. I think structure is very important. So which muscle groups you're working on

which day? Yes. We talked about the importance of recovery. I recommend working each muscle group

two-ish times on non consecutive days in one week. You can split your strength training workouts

into three to five strength training workouts, taking those two recovery days. And making sure that

you have about 48 hours of recovery in between your muscle groups. So let's say you work glutes

on Monday. You probably don't want to work your glutes again until Wednesday at the earliest. Your

body needs that recovery time. It's so crucial. But I think what a lot of people do is they want to

change their glutes or change their abs or change their arms. And so they'll work that muscle

group every single day. But the problem is when you do that, you're not giving your body enough

recovery. And the recovery is when you repair and adapt. So that's really crucial. So that's one

mistake that I think people make. It sounds like you are already doing this in your training routine

which is great. Yeah. So that's good. So for muscle building, we've got knowing the difference between

failure and fatigue. Yes. It's huge. And then the second one is making sure that the repair time

is at least 48 hours. Yes. Before hitting that muscle group again. Yes. Because just overworking

that muscle isn't going to win. I think I do have that right. I think I did find for a long time

that I was underworking a muscle group too. So like you just said, I should try five workouts.

And I'm doing say back and buys or chest and tries. I need to get two days of each. If you can't

ideally in a week. Yes. Because I think for a long time, I was doing one of each and I wasn't seeing

the benefit either because I was doing the muscle group too little now. Yes. And we see there was

a recent metanalysis about this that found that twice a week is the sweet spot for muscle growth.

And that frequency matters hitting that muscle group again. And this is just yet another reason why

you can't smash yourself in your workout because you know you have to turn around and work

that muscle group again in a few days in order to keep compounding those results.

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How sore should you feel if I'm working a muscle group, so like you give the example,

you work to a glute, so on a Monday you can work them again on a Wednesday,

like how sore do you want to feel on a Monday and the Tuesday before you get back to on Wednesday?

Such a good question. I think this is something that holds a lot of people back,

light to no muscle soreness is ideal. I think that we over index on soreness because it's

proof that we work that muscle, it feels satisfying, it feels good, but studies consistently show

that it's a poor indication of muscle growth. Soreness typically happens when you do a new

movement pattern or if you add significant load or challenge to the muscle that you're not used to.

And soreness typically happens when there is damage to the muscle or connective tissue like

fascia, and that causes an inflammation cycle, which causes the tissues to be sensitive. So

that's what soreness is. But we just consistently see that it's not a very good way to measure

if your workout worked. And so again, because we want to hit those muscle groups again in a few days,

we want light to no muscle soreness so that you can show up to your next workout and put in

really high quality stimulus for those muscles. And that's what again, keeps compounding those

results. And are people, do you think a big part of that is also bad sleep? Yes.

In terms of the soreness piece, or is it really to do it just pushing yourself so hard?

That's so interesting. I wonder if there is literature that says you get more sore if you are

under-sliped. I'm not sure, but just based on what I understand about the body, it does make sense.

It means that you are under-recovered. So if you are chronically sore,

yeah, you're under-recovering, which is not beneficial. People think like, oh, I'm so sore all

the time. That means I'm seeing results. But the results again are happening when you are

allowing your body time to recover. So yeah, I think that if you're so sore all the time and

you're still applying all these principles that we're talking about, maybe it means that you need

to dial back volume or frequency slightly so that you can work within your own recovery capacity.

It's easy to say sleep more. Everyone knows sleep is so important, but if you're like me,

I have a baby. I'm like, well, that's just, it is what it is. I can't get as much sleep as I would

like to. In a perfect world, I would love to get 9 hours, but that's just not practical for me

right now. So I might kind of dial back my intensity or my volume a little bit so that I'm staying

within my own recovery window. And what you're saying is that even in the case that you have two

beautiful babies under two, that hasn't necessarily negatively affected muscle building

for your sleep recovery is not as strong. Well, have you felt the difference?

You know, I don't think I have. I think I have continued to see results even with two under two.

And I think that I knew the power of all of this like before having this, but now I'm in the

most chaotic season of my life ever like running a business with two under two is just wild.

And yet I'm still getting stronger than I've ever been. And it just goes to show the power of all

of this. Like if you are giving your body the right signals over and over and over and over,

you're not going to feel under recovered. You just won't. If we're going to the extremes of this

and you're only getting like four hours of sleep and all of those things like yes, you do need to

back things off from what we're recommending. But for the most part, most average Americans can

do exactly what we're saying and see great results and recover from it.

This is such helpful advice. Everything you're saying feels practical and doable. And it's also

reassuring to me because I feel that light to moderate soreness. Good. And I've been questioning

whether I'm not pushing hard enough because I'm like, oh, maybe I'm not working out hard enough and

maybe I need to increase the intensity of my workout and hearing that from you is so helpful

because I actually walk into my morning workout feeling pretty refreshed. Yes.

And really excited to work out because my body feels like it can take on more,

rather than walking into it going, oh my gosh, I'm still really sure from yesterday.

The only time I ever feel that is after leg day, there's something about legs that only feel worse

24 hours and 48 hours and is that normal? Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, there's just bigger

muscle groups and quads specifically. I don't know if you find quads anecdotally. And again,

I've looked this up and I'm not sure what the reason is, but quads and glutes tend to get more

sore. And that could be because, and again, this is like up for debate, but there's an interesting

theory that soreness actually is from more fascia damage, fascia damage rather than muscle tissue damage.

fascia is richly integrated, which means that it's very sensitive. So when you're working bigger

muscles that just have more fascia surrounding the muscles, there's more, there's a higher

ceiling for more damage in the fascia. So that's what creates more soreness. So I just like to say,

like, just don't worry too much about soreness. If you're constantly sore, it probably means you're

doing too much or you could afford to take an extra recovery day or something like that, but

I just don't recommend chasing soreness because it's just not a very reliable indicator.

Don't chase soreness, okay, get it. And in terms of, as we're still focusing on building muscle,

the way we're currently talking about is we're splitting up groups. So I was saying back and

by is triceps, you were talking chestnut tries, you were talking, is that the way you think about

building muscle or is there another way to think about it? Am I getting it wrong?

Yes, absolutely. There are so many different ways you could split up your muscle work.

I will say exercise selection is very important. So you want to bias one muscle group at a time.

Don't choose an exercise that works your upper body and lower body at the same time because,

as we talked about, training to failure is really important. And when you're working upper body and

lower body in the same exercise, it's difficult to know, are my arms limiting factor? Are my legs

limiting factor? Or am I just stopping because I hit 10 reps and that's what the trainer told me to do?

So separating, doing arm workout, separate from your leg workout, core workout, separate from your

leg workout, and keeping each muscle group separate tends to be more effective and productive.

But you can split that work into whatever makes sense for you in your life. I like to do,

I do five strength training workouts that are 35 minutes. So they're not very long. It's just

the Evo five time per week track. Monday's upper body. So we're working for three to four muscle

groups in the upper body, two days lower body, and then Wednesday, Thursday, Friday are a mix

of full body. So we are making sure to separate each muscle group so that you're not working the

same muscle group on consecutive days. But that's not necessarily the only way you can split it up.

You can do it as you were talking about. You can do back and back in one day or test and try and

then legs or however makes sense for you. There's so many different ways to kind of slice and

dice it. Okay, good to know. I'm not making sure that my workout makes sense. I got you.

Yeah, this is checking all the boxes. Yeah, I'm checking it out. That makes sense.

Is there something I could be doing to build muscle faster? Yes. You can build muscle faster

when you increase what's called volume. So sets taken close to failure. So studies show,

I like to kind of back this up and talk about the minimum effective dose because I think this

is really important for people to understand what's the minimum that I need to be doing to see

results. And then we can play and work work on that and build upon that and talk about kind of

the maximum as well. So the minimum effective dose for muscle growth is around four sets per muscle

group per week. So four sets of glutes, four sets of quads, four sets of chest, four sets of

shoulders spread across your week. That's kind of the minimum amount that we see will reliably build

muscle. Some studies find even one hard set per muscle group per week, but I like to recommend for

there, you can build upon that. So we do moderate volume and evlo just because it's really easy to

recover from. It is effective and your workouts don't take a long time. So it's really easy to show

up for, but it's very effective. So our volume tends to be around six to eight sets per muscle

group per week, but you can do more than that and continue to see gains. You're just seeing

diminished returns as you add more than like 10 sets per muscle group per week. But yes, you can

do higher volume work and see faster muscle growth. Just make sure that you're recovering. Because

if you're not recovering, then you're not growing. Yeah. Is there anything that I missed about

building muscle? We didn't talk about protein, did we? No. Yes. So protein is, and I am not formally

trained in nutrition. So I like to keep this really high level and leave that to the RDS like your

wife. But protein is essential and how you're fueling to rebuild your muscle tissue is essential.

So the RDS that we work with typically recommend 0.75 to 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight

per day. anecdotally, I have found that when I stay on the higher end of that, I do see better

results. Yeah. So I used to not track my food and I didn't, I wasn't building muscle. And when I

started tracking, I noticed that I was eating about half the amount that I should to build muscle.

And I was like, okay, no wonder I'm not seeing muscle growth. So I upped my protein and that really

did help me. So that's I guess another way to to make sure that you're building muscle faster.

So when I was doing that, what I found is that I was just getting bigger overall. So I was building

more muscle for sure. But my body was just getting bigger. And so I've literally got like end of last

year. No, it was the end of the year before last. Sorry. So it was like two years ago where I really

started following that protein goal. Yeah. And if I showed you a picture of me now versus a picture

of me then, I couldn't fit into my suits. I couldn't like my pants were all growing in size.

And that was me not it wasn't like it was protein. It wasn't sugars and fats or cotton. You know,

it was right. I was eating higher. I was eating that dose of protein. I didn't like what was

happening. And I don't know if it's I wasn't doing enough cardio. I never really figured it out.

I just realized I didn't like that much bulk. And so I cut down on my protein. But that's also

slow down my muscle build. So talk to me about what was happening then two years ago.

When I was eating the recommended dose of protein, but I just looked felt and was bigger. Yes.

And like I said, I couldn't fit into my clothes. Everything was tighter. I definitely, you know,

I just felt like I was putting on weight more than building muscle. I'm so glad you're bringing

this up because I think this is a very common goal for people. They want what's called body

recomposition. So they want more muscle, but they don't want more fat or they want less fat.

And this is a process that involves proper nutrition. So like we said, enough protein,

but also potentially a slight calorie deficit or even in your eating and your calorie maintenance,

and then proper strength training. So and you do need to do cardio. Cardio is important for keeping

your overall energy expenditure high, but you don't need to overdo the cardio or rely on cardio

to lose fat because then you're just going to overdo it. So when you have those principles,

you're eating in a slight calorie deficit or at your maintenance and that might involve

tracking. And I know tracking isn't for everyone, but if you do have that goal, it might be

illuminating to take a week and just kind of track your food and see where you're landing on your

overall calories. See where you're landing on your overall protein because my guess is maybe

you were unintentionally trying to get more protein and eating in a calorie surplus. I didn't realize

that. Yes. You might have been gaining fat and muscle at the same time. And that's typically

going back to that bulky conversation that can happen to women when they're gaining lean

mass, they're gaining muscle mass, but they're also gaining fat mass at the same time because they're

unintentionally eating in a calorie surplus. So the reason I like body recomposition is kind of

that quote unquote toned look that a lot of people are searching for. But the reason I like body

recomposition is because it makes you focus on your muscle mass, which is crucial for women as we

all people. We are under muscleed as a society. And so when we focus on our muscle, everything else

kind of falls into place. You can't under fuel or you won't build muscle. You can't over train or

you won't build muscle. So applying all of the nutrition and strength training things together

will maybe be a slower process, but so much more sustainable and you'll end up being a lot

happier with the aesthetic outcome of that. I think you're spot on. I was I think without

knowing I was eating around 3000 calories a day and like my you know, I need to be at 2500 or

if I'm in a deficit like at a 2000 or 2200 or whatever it is. And so for me, it was I was definitely

doing that and not only was I not happy about just like not being able to fit into my normal clothes

or whatever it was. It was also not leading to the results that I was looking for. And so what I've

had to do and I wanted to get your sense on this. So now I do about 80 to 100 grams of protein,

which is significantly less than what I was doing. So before I was doing like 150 or something

like that. Now I'm at like 80 to 100 grams of protein a day. Is that just slowing down how long

it takes to build muscle for me? Even but that is also more aligned with my goals because I'm able

to do that with a calorie deficit. Whereas if I was to 150 grams, I'd probably been a calorie

surplus. Obviously I'm plant based so that applies to it. But also because honestly, I was struggling

with like my God was not enjoying eating 150 grams of protein. My God just couldn't take that.

Do you hear that at 12 from people where they just can't digest that amount of protein? Yes,

especially if they're using lots of like powders and stuff. I hear that a lot. Training stimulus

is the most important for muscle growth. You do need protein and protein. Eating at a higher

amount of protein might make your workout more effective. So but it doesn't mean that you won't

build muscle at all. The training stimulus is the most important part. So I love what you're saying

because I think there is kind of guardrails around these things. Like these are the recommendations

of what you can do. But you can tinker within this and find what works best in your own lifestyle

and what you can stay consistent with because the truth is you're probably building muscle. It just

might be slower than if you were eating 150 grams per day. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Yeah, I need to find a way

to I'm testing different protein sources as well. Well, being plant based is like really feeling

like the powders and the bars and stuff are just not great. And trying to find them naturally,

but without adding the calorie surplus. It's so hard, which is like a really interesting

dynamic. Yes, it's so hard because like if you're eating tofu and beans and things to get that

amount of protein without being in as overall calories or plus is difficult. Yeah, it is hard.

What does your wife think about all that? No, she agrees. We're both tinkering with this stuff

all the time. Yeah. And I think the reason why I wanted to have this very open and honest conversation

with you here on the show is because I think this is the kind of stuff people have really

dealing with and struggling to. Totally. Where they're just like, well, what about this? What about

this? And you know, it's it's good to hear from you that, hey, you can be personalized about it.

And it is going to look different for everyone. Totally. But being real about what that means and

what your results look like and then not having these, you know, crazy expectations.

Totally. And it's just going to take time for you to learn what you can fit into your life.

I talk about this all the time with like exercise selection. We've been taught that we have to do

squats and overhead presses and deadlifts. But what we see from the literature is there is a wide

variety of exercises that will be effective to build muscle. So you just choose the ones that

feel good in your body that you enjoy that you can take close to true muscular failure.

I think a lot of people can relate to this. Like let's say you're doing an exercise that you hate.

I used to hate Bulgarian split squats. Oh, I still hate Bulgarian split squats.

Something switched to me and now I love them. I don't know what happened. But we can't be friends

anymore. Yeah, right. I know. I know a lot of people hate them a lot and it's understandable. They're

very hard. But if you hate Bulgarian split squats, you're more likely to stop that exercise because

of overall discomfort or boredom or you're just ready for it to be over. Yeah.

Rather than taking that exercise close to true muscular failure. So instead of doing the Bulgarian

split squat, which you know you don't like, let's choose a different exercise that targets the same

muscle group. Maybe you're targeting glutes. Maybe you love hip thrusts and you find I can reliably

get close to failure every single time in hip thrusts. I don't feel distracted. I feel locked in.

Like it feels very satisfying. Just do the hip thrusts and you're more likely to see better results

because you're training closer to true muscular failure. You're not stopping because of discomfort

or boredom or any of those things. I'm telling my train to that. Yeah. Does he make you do the hard

things? Yeah, of course. You know, old hard things. I'm going to tell him. I look like I heard from

Shannon that I don't need to do these Bulgarian split squats anymore. Well, it's like and I know a

lot of people will fight me about that. But it's no, the point makes sense. The point is and it

makes you more consistent because if you know your workout will be filled with exercises that

feel really good for your body. And this isn't to say that anything goes. I'm not saying that. I'm

also not saying that your workout should be easy. But when you choose exercises that really work

with your body because exercise is physics, a lot of the reason why we don't like an exercise

could be because of the physical length of our bones. For example, in squats, you might have

longer legs, longer femurs. And so you have to bend forward more in a squat just to keep yourself

from falling over. So squats might feel really low back heat for you. And therefore you might feel

like I don't feel comfortable in a squat. I feel like it's going to hurt my back. I don't like

them. I don't feel like I can push close to failure. So a barbell squat might not be the best exercise

for you. But that's your body proportions. There's nothing wrong with you. You can just choose a

different exercise and carry on. If you're pushing to failure, is there a difference between heavy weight,

low reps or lightweight high reps? You can see the same strength and muscle growth, whether you

are lifting four reps all the way up to 30 reps. As long as your final rep is too failure or

near muscular failure, you can use anywhere in between. That might evolve based on your training

status, based on the day, based on the exercise. Some exercises I love to go really heavy and do

like four or six reps. And some exercises I prefer to go a little lighter and do like eight to 12 reps.

You can do all the way up to 30. 30 is kind of that's kind of brutal.

You can do up to 30 reps in one go. And one go. If you train close to failure,

the problem with doing that high of rep is people typically stop because of fatigue. Like we

talked about earlier, they don't stop because of true muscular failure. But knowing that you have

the option of I could do four, I could do 30, I could do anywhere in between, then you can choose

a weight that feels comfortable for you. Because I think that's a barrier for a lot of women,

especially as they're like, I don't want to lift heavy muscle building isn't for me because I

don't want to go lift heavy. Well, you can lift relatively light and go for 20 reps. And see the

same muscle growth is if you were to lift a heavy barbell for four reps as long as you're training

close to failure. There's such a myth around just wanting to lift heavier and lift more and then

feeling the pressure of I can't or whatever it may be. And again, going back to the failure point

is far better of a marker than how heavy you're lifting. Yes. Yes. Because some body weight exercises

too can get you close to failure. You literally just read my mind. I was about to ask that question

next. I was going to ask you, if someone goes, I don't have a gym, I don't have a gym membership,

kind of forward it, don't have access to one. I have very little time to work out right now.

Maybe I've 20 minutes, I only have space to do body weight in my on my bedroom floor or on my

living room floor. What is the difference between body weight and then barbell weights or any other

type of weight? If you're training close to failure, it doesn't matter. You can do, I like to use

pushups as an example. A lot of people can't do more than 30 pushups physically. They would fail

before they got to 30 pushups. And so that is an effective stimulus for building muscle. If you could

do more than 30 pushups, then your body weight is not challenging enough. Pull up same thing. You

could do maybe just a few pullups before getting close to failure. That's a body weight exercise.

However, there are some body weight exercises that are just difficult to load up enough.

So like a lunge, for example, you might feel like you could do 100 lunges or more. Just because

they're stronger muscles, they do require external load in the form of a machine, a cable, a barbell,

a kettlebell, whatever you have. But this is why I say yes, some body weight exercises can absolutely

be effective. But just go back to, can I do more than 30 reps? And if I can, it's not heavy enough,

and maybe it means involving or investing in a set of dumbbells or a kettlebell or two or whatever

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If someone wanted to just get started tomorrow and they've almost not thought about their

physical health for a long time, where should they start? What's really cool about beginners

is that they will see results with far less stimulus than those that are trained.

If you have already been working out, the bar is higher. You do need to apply some of these things

that we're talking about if you already have a consistent workout routine. If you don't,

you can do far less than that and see results pretty quickly. It's called newbie gains.

So this is really exciting for someone that's new and is really motivating to keep going,

because you're like, oh, I don't have to smash my body.

How many squats should the average person be able to do? I don't think that there's a number

that matters. I think what matters is overall muscle growth and strength and there are a variety

of exercises you can do to build muscle growth and strength. I will say I have not, again,

this is contentious, but I have not done squats in like over five years. I just don't do that.

Squats have never felt good on my back. I'm one of those people that has to lean far forward

and I don't enjoy them and so I don't do them. I think giving myself that freedom to not do

exercises that I just hated was so freeing for me and allowing me to stay so much more consistent

and my body didn't hurt. I just really struggled with so much chronic pain and that's because I was

forcing myself to do exercises that were making it worse. Not to say that squats are automatically

going to give you back pain. I'm not saying that. You're just saying for you.

For me and I think that everyone can kind of find those things for themselves. Some people hate

pushups. You don't have to do pushups. You can do chest presses. Works the exact same muscle group.

What I will say is you don't want to ignore any muscle group. So work all of the muscle groups

in your body, but just there's so many different exercises. We have so many different options

so you can choose what you like. You can work that muscle group in another way.

There's not just one way and yeah, I might not ideal. I just like there's it's the worst thing

like I'll be in pain. And like it's like I never get lower back pain. But if I do

ideals with a heavy enough weight, it's like that's what I'm going to have. And then it ruins my

workout for the next three days. And there's plenty of other ways to do that muscle group.

And ultimately the goal is to build strength and muscle in the hamstrings. And so maybe you can do

hamstring curls instead. And that achieves the same goal. Unless I will say like maybe you want

to compete in like high rocks or a CrossFit competition. You need to be doing those exercises

in order to train your body to be good when you perform those exercises in that competition.

But if you're just trying to get fit, trying to be strong, maybe you're trying to look more

muscular, more defined or quote unquote tone, whatever the word is, there's no one exercises required.

I wanted to shift over to losing weight because I'm assuming that's another top goal that

everyone comes to you with. Should I want to build muscle? I want to lose weight. What's the

biggest thing we're getting wrong about losing weight right now? We are over glorifying exercise

as a fat loss tool. It just doesn't move the needle as much as we think. When you do that,

when you're focusing on cardio to lose fat, not only do we see from many studies that it produces

underwhelming fat loss, but there's an opportunity cost. Maybe you're doing cardio. We're going

to these really hard workout classes or whatever. It may be to lose fat, but you're not intentionally

strength training. And the opportunity cost is that when you lose weight overall, let's say you're

in a calorie deficit and you're losing weight. That weight can come from both fat and muscle unless

you are intentionally strength training. We see that 25% of weight loss can come from muscle if

you're not properly strength training. There's an opportunity cost. I think that's the biggest

thing that people do wrong is they over-prioritize cardio and make strength training the cornerstone

of your routine. That way, any weight loss is coming from fat, not muscle. That's a shift we can

make. I think so. Yeah, I think that was the big one for me too. I think I was like playing

so much sport. Yes. And I was just not losing the fat that I had left to lose. I wasn't

because you're not building any muscle. Totally. Yeah, it didn't make any difference really.

And you're very active, which is great. There was actually a recent paper that came out that I

thought was really illuminating. They studied over 5,000 women aged. I think it was over 60, like

16 to 99 or something. And they followed them for eight years. And they found that the people that

lived the longest were the strongest. And this was even up against other women that were very active.

So being active is not enough. Having more muscle and strength gives you that extra layer of

protection. And I know that people think about like, oh, I'll worry about that when I'm older.

It's like, no, what you're doing now is so important because this is all compounding on itself.

You can't wait until you're older to build muscle because it does take years. Like you and I

are even talking about like, even if you're doing all the right things, you still have to tinker.

You still have to figure out like, how can this work within my lifestyle, within my goals,

within how I want to eat, with what activities I want to do as my cardio. So there is a learning

period. It's a skill that you have to develop. So I don't think we should wait until we get to that

age to develop our muscle and strength. What's the cutoff point from which you can't build muscle

as much as fast anymore? There is no cutoff point. You can build muscle at any age. I will say

as you get older, and I don't know the cutoff age of like when it gets harder, but as you get older,

recovery demand gets higher. So you just typically don't recover as well when you're older. And so

it does get harder to add a lot of volume of exercise because you're just not recovering from that.

So using your 20s and your 30s to build a bank of muscle, you will be so happy with yourself

that you did that when you get into your 40s, 50s beyond. But if you're listening and you're in your

40s, 50s beyond, it's never too late. What should we be doing for weight loss that we're not doing

right now? So I will say again, I'm not formally trained in nutrition, but nutrition is really

the primary piece for weight loss and fat loss. What I do, and I have body recompositioned

three times now. So I did it once before my first baby, and then I did it in between my pregnancies,

and then I'm doing it for the third time now after my second. Explain to me how you define body

recomposition. Body recomposition is losing fat while building muscle. And those two processes,

I like to think of as individual processes, but they can happen at the same time. They can happen

whether you are new to training or whether you're trained. Like someone like me can still

body recomposition someone like you that's already trained, you can still body recomposition

with the right ingredients. But I like to think about nutrition as your primary tool for fat loss.

And what I have on the most success in is being in a very slight calorie deficit, not in a huge

calorie deficit because that's really hard to sustain. And you kind of end up yo-yoing. So very slight.

Yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Same. I used to like eat nothing during the week, and then I would just

binge on the weekends. And it's just like. That is what we do right now. Making up for like the

binge is ruining the deficit of the entire five, six days. Yes. I heard a metabolic scientist say

hunger always wins. Like it's always going to win. So you have to work with your physiology. Our

body does not like aggressive energy deficits because our bodies always trying to keep us safe.

And if it senses an energy deficit, hunger increases, cravings increase. And so it's a

body kind of working against itself. But if the calorie is deficit is slight enough that your body

doesn't feel like it's in an energy scarcity, you can sustain that and see better results. But

it's not going to be an overnight thing. But it is something that you can sustain. And again,

compounds. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful to hear because I find that I can do that sometimes where I

can pretty much fast the whole day and then at night, you're just like totally just going crazy.

And then you're like, wait a minute. What was the point of that? Because sure, I made it till 6 p.m.

and you know, I've done an extreme fast. And now I'm just going crazy. Right. All once a week.

If someone is going to have a cheat meal, how does it have to work? Talk to me about is that even

worth it? Should it be or should it be a general balance throughout the week? What do you recommend

when it comes to that? That's interesting. I've never really seen meals as like cheat meals or

cheat days or anything like that. I just typically like to apply what we call gentle consistency

into my nutrition. So for the most part, 80% of what I eat is highly nutritious within my calorie

plan for based on my goals, within my protein goals. But 20% of the time I'm going out to

eat with my husband and we always get dessert. I typically have a cocktail or two and I plan that

in for my week. And I do that a couple times every week. But I don't necessarily see it. I think

it's a mindset shift. I don't see it as the cheat meal. I just see it as part of my lifestyle.

And I think that that's what's so hard for so many of us. We're so black and white when it comes

to nutrition. And I think, I know, why is it so hard? It really is. And I think it just does take time.

And this is also why tracking your food is takes a lot of time. It's annoying. Maybe there's an AI

tool now that makes it easier. I don't know. But it can be so helpful so that you can kind of

understand like, oh, I can have my favorite food and it not derail me. But or like, I am like,

I'm really under eating here. I know wonder I'm so starving and binging all the time.

So getting some clarity around where you're sitting on your calories can be really helpful.

I had a really good system where I'm pretty much in really extremely healthy, probably like

six and a half days a week. And then I'm allowing one meal for myself to eat something that,

like I'm talking about like burger fries or something like that, right? Yes.

But I'm not sure if some of that burger fries dessert that I'm having is so extreme

from a calorie point of view and from a nutrition point of view that it's actually selling me back.

And I need to kind of make a shift there. Probably not. I would say probably not.

Yeah. I just had a burger in my head. Yeah. I just had a burger in fries last night.

Like I truly think I love a burger in fries the best. Again, I would track it and see like,

you might find like, oh, this isn't really setting me back as much as I think it is.

But this is another reason to why I think one of the reasons why I've found so much more

balance with it over time is because A, I've like tinkered with it for a long time. I think

there is a learning phase. But B, I have more muscle mass and when you have more muscle mass,

your glucose metabolism improves. Muscle increases the storage sites for the sugars that we eat

to be stored. And so when you have more muscle mass, you store more sugar in muscle rather than being

stored as fat. And it can help you balance your cravings because insulin sensitivity also improves.

So having more muscle can kind of act as that buffer. I think that's what I'm feeling as well

that as I build more and as I get more consistent with that, I think that's going to offset this.

It does. I think you're in this critical like learning phase. And this is where a lot of people

give up and they're like, it's not working. Keep going because as soon as you get to the other

side of that, like I've experienced this, as soon as you get to the other side of that,

then it's a lifestyle. And you crave your workouts. And I never thought I would say that.

Even though I've been on the fitness industry, I've got to do that. Yeah, so good to have my workouts.

Yes. I'm trying to figure out the rest of it. The food is hard and the food is hard because,

and this is why I always say I defer to the experts because, man, there's so much with food,

because it's not just like calories and it's also so mental. We have so much emotion and

tradition and celebration wrapped up in food. So it's really, really difficult. It's such an

intertwined part of our life. So it's hard. It just is. Or just being a recovering sugar addict,

like me. Yes. So I have the biggest sweet tooth in the world. So I could actually avoid everything

else. But if it comes to like a good chocolate fried cake with like ice cream or that kind of

thing, I'm like, forget it. I get dessert every single time I go out to eat. And I'm just like,

that's just never going to change. I just love it. But I guess, yeah, you become so confident.

And that's what it is. It's a confidence in your workout and having been there before and

recognizing it where you don't over index or over amplify these things mentally and get caught

up in your head about, oh god, I did that. I shouldn't have been in that kind of guilt.

Yeah. How long did it take you to kind of get rid of some of those emotional things,

at least to your personal experience? I know it's, you're not a nutrition or a dietitian.

I'm not talking about that. But even for you personally, was there ever a period where you went

through where I was like, I still feel guilty or I shame myself? Because I know that's what I hear

from our audience and community too. Where it's like, you're doing well. And then you have one bad day

and then you guilt and shame yourself. And now it's ruined your week. And now for the rest of the

month, you don't work out or you've been good for 30 days and you had enough week. And now,

you're on vacation. Now you're mad at yourself. Like, talk to me a bit about that.

Oh, yeah. I've been through all of the different chapters of my relationship with my food.

And it started with kind of under-eating during the week eating as little as possible. And then

binging on the weekends. And then once I shifted to more of like a balanced nutrition,

so like eating enough protein, fueling enough, that helped a little bit. And this was only,

you know, several years ago. But I still kind of felt you do feel that guilt. Like that doesn't

always go away where you're like, I shouldn't have this cocktail or I shouldn't have this dessert or

I shouldn't have this pizza pizza. And that food noise, I just don't know that it ever fully goes away.

It's gotten so much better, I will say. Like again, last night I had a burger and fries at my hotel.

And I was like, it's so weird. I was just reflecting. I was like, I don't feel guilty about this at all.

Like I'm enjoying this because I know that 80% of the time, like I eat really well to fuel my body.

And I have seen time after time that having some meals that I really enjoy sprinkled into my life

just does not derail my progress. Now, if you're trying to like prepare for a bikini competition,

like all those things do matter. But most of us aren't trying to do that. We just want to

feel confident in our bodies and feel like we have less noise around that food.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I wanted to hand you a little friend here.

Oh my gosh, you had this hiding back there. I didn't even know that. That's so good.

And I wanted to ask you because I think one of the things you speak, you're like such a proponent

of this. And I've heard it today, which is like this, you don't have to crush yourself. You don't

have to just think that you have to sweat. What parts of our body on a daily basis are we

putting stress on that we don't even realize? Feet first. I like to think people neglect feet.

We shove our feet in socks and shoes that are too tight. Hi, I'm wearing pointy shoes right now.

They're wonderful. But you know, it's not good for our feet. And this compounds over decades

to the point where we lose neuromuscular connection to our feet. And you should be able to articulate

each of your toes. The listeners can try this right now. Can you leave all four toes down and

just lift up your big toe? Yes. Okay. And then do the opposite. Big toe down all four little toes

lift up. Yes. Okay. Great. You're already like 90% better than most people.

Can you bring your big toe towards midline? So towards the inside of your shoe like this with your

big toe? Yes. If your shoe is big enough. Yeah. If your shoe is big enough, like I'm not

I can't do any of that right now at these point of shoes. But most people cannot do that even though

we have those muscles there to be able to do that. But we've lost the wiring. We've lost the

connection because we've stuffed our feet in socks and shoes that are too tight. And so this is why

I'm a proponent of working out barefoot or in socks so that you can feel the floor. You can connect

to your feet. If you're doing cardio or high intensity stuff where you're jumping, you might

want to shoe on to help you absorb some of that force. But lifting weights, I like to lift weights

barefoot. I think it is one way for us to improve the neuromuscular connection to our feet. We're

also an envelope. We're always doing mobility warmups. So we're always doing foot and ankle mobility

warmups to rewire that connection from our brain to our feet because everything from the feet up

your your foot is your platform. It will dictate the forces that go through your knee, the forces

that go through your hip, the forces that go through your spine all the way up the chain. So if

this is rigid and isn't working how it should be, everything else up the chain isn't going to work

properly. Any others, that was great. I never thought you didn't think I was going to give you that.

Yeah, you don't even think about your feet like that. That's why I love that answer is because

your feet are you just said your feet are your platform. Yes. And the feet are how we feel

everything else. Yes. But we just don't think about them. We just kind of take them for granted

and just go, yeah, like thanks for being there. A hundred percent. And if yeah, we didn't want to

take our socks off and see if we could do the foot thing. Exactly. Don't want to see our feet,

but I hope everyone's doing that back at home and trying it out. I think that's such a great

little test. It is. How can people reconnect with that if they weren't able to do the three things

you mentioned? Yeah. What do we do about that? Practice it is that just. So I used to give this to

my patients all the time as physical therapists because a lot of things do come from the feet.

Like a lot of joint dysfunction can originate at the feet. So I would give them these exercises

and they would start by being like, I can't even do one single rep. Like I can't coordinate it.

And then it's funny because they get competitive with themselves and they try to do it like all day

long and they'll find they'll come back to me in like a few days and be like, I can do it now.

And it's again, because the muscles are there, you just have to rewire that connection from your

brain to your muscles. So just practice those even three exercises. You'll find that if you do it

enough, like you will be able to do them after maybe a couple weeks and also just warming up your

feet before you exercise. Angle circles, foot circles, spreading out your toes, feeling the

floor underneath you. That will lead to such a more productive workout. Your body will get that

cue of safety and stability from the ground up. So yeah, feet are so important. I don't get to

talk about this that much. So I'm so glad you're asking. I love to like nerd out about this topic.

Is there any other area of the body that you want to pick on for the stress that we

don't think about? Yeah, so I'm going to give you maybe maybe another unexpected one. The eyes.

Interesting. So eyes are very important, obviously, for so many different reasons.

Our five senses give us information about what's going on in the environment around us and tell

our nervous system if there is a threat or if we're safe and that can dictate muscle tone. So

you're more relaxed if you don't feel like there's a threat. If your nervous system senses,

there's something around me that might not be safe. Your muscles tense up. That can lead to

joint dysfunction over time. It can lead to neck issues, headaches. But the eyes take in,

I think it's about 10 billion bits per second of information, a ton of information at one given

time. And so if you're giving your eyes good information, the rest of your body can follow suit.

But a lot of times what we're doing is we're staring at screens that are this far away from us.

We're not ever looking out into the distance. We put on glasses and we just get stronger and

stronger and stronger prescriptions. But when you start to train your eyes, you might feel like

your body moves better because you have better information. Your nervous system has better

information. Headaches can go away, neck pain can go away. So eye drills were something that I

gave my patients a lot to when they would come to me with neck and shoulder stuff. Well, would you

don't even think about again? You don't think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of like looking around,

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You brought a posture. What can we do for better posture? I believe the more I've been working out

and building muscle, my posture is improved drastically. Yes. And I can't believe before when I

used to pretend to have to stand like this. Yes. And now you're like, oh, your body's actually doing

that for you naturally. Talk to me about the connection between posture, muscle and just what we

can do to get better posture. Posture, I would say posture is a function of your environment.

So how you are posturing all day long will influence how your body holds itself. But strength

training is one of the best things you can do for your posture. And getting strong all over,

it's not just your back muscles. All of your muscles need to be strong in order for your skeleton

to be held in a good posture. So strength training is the number one thing. But I always say

posture is complicated. So if you are having issues, go see a provider. And I know that's not a very

like nobody wants to hear that. But it's so complex. Like we just talked about it could be

originating at your feet. It could be because of originating at your eyes. Could be originating in

a place that you don't even realize you're doing. And so just giving you shoulder blade squeezes

and telling you that's going to improve your posture. I just don't think that that's very effective

because it's so complex. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's been a game changer for me because I felt like

we're all on our phones. So my posture was getting weaker just by the fact that I'm constantly

holding my phone and looking down and I can start to feel neck pain and upper shoulder pain. And then

working out as definitely just made it easier to have better posture and at the same time

notice how easy it is to kind of to and fro. Yes. Between having good posture and not. Yes.

Because of our phones and our devices. And even for everyone who's just sedentary all day. Yes.

Like sitting even like this, even when we're doing the podcast, I'm always in my head thinking

gosh, I was sitting for so long. Yeah. Totally. And it's great to have the comment. And I love it.

But at the same time, I'm like, gosh, we need to move so much more throughout the day. We need to move.

We need to like and that's why I say like if you're sitting all day long, get up and try to move

at least once an hour because that will be far more beneficial than taking 20 minutes a day to like

squeeze your shoulder blades together. What you're doing throughout your day is so much more

important. Yeah. Getting up, moving around, circling your hips, moving your feet, moving your ankles,

maybe doing some eye drills, looking out into the distance. All of those things can make huge

impacts on your posture. I was going to ask that. Let's formulate that for people. What's a great

three minute workout you could do every hour or movement you could do every hour that people

could do at work at their desk, at home, wherever they are. That would help them stay active the whole

day. Some jumping jacks, simple, gets your body moving, gets your eyes up, makes your arms move

out to the side, your legs move out to the side. We're so forward and backwards. So doing some

jumping jacks would be great. Circling your feet, circling your hips, circling your shoulders.

Maybe you do that for about a minute. So a minute of jumping jacks, a minute of just like

overall mobility around your whole body, starting with the feet, moving all the way up, and then

maybe a minute of breath work. I think that a minute of breath work might be the most impactful

thing that you could do for your whole day. So what I recommend for breath work is hugging your

ribcage so that you can feel your ribs move because we want our ribcage to inflate so the diaphragm

moves downwards. And that allows the kind of canister of our abdominals to work properly and

our breath mechanics to work properly and lungs expand. So breathe in through your nose and

feel your ribs move out into your hands up towards your shoulders and then just breathe out and

don't contract anything. Just let it all go and feel how it just passively recoils back to

midline in your shoulders, relax in your jaw relaxes. And then maybe just take five deep breaths

like that, breathe in, feel the ribcage expand, not just side to side but forward backwards

and at the angles and then breathe out. And just doing that can immediately reset your nervous

system. We include that in the beginning and end of every single one of our classes and it

immediately centers you. Like even just doing that, I just felt like just this sense of calm.

I guess I'm giving yourself a hug too. Yeah, it is. I know it's nice. Oh, that's great. I'm

going to use that. I've never had that before. Good. What's that technique called?

diaphragmatic breathing. Oh, that is just diaphragmatic breathing. You're just holding yourself.

But the cue of your hands helps you know what should be moving. So the ribcage moving

and inflating. And because a lot of people breathe either with their shoulders or with their

belly, we've been taught to breathe with our belly. It's actually the ribcage that should be

expanding as you inhale. Oh, got it. That's neat. Yeah, I like that practice. Yeah, because I've

held my palm on my stomach before. Yeah. But really when you do my diaphragm, you're saying you're

going to feel that more through the ribcage. Yes. And you will find that one side might not move

the same way as the other side. And so really trying to breathe into all sides. Like I can't,

I start with the left side. So I really try to breathe into my left side. And I find when I focus

on that, like my nervous system completely calms. Like it is very, very powerful. Well,

going to try that out. Love it. What's the, is there a different recommendation that you have for

people in their 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s in terms of what their workouts should look like? No,

I really don't. And I think that the fitness industry loves to overcomplicate this.

And I think specifically the group of people that are being told that they need to do something

different is people impairing postmenopause. And we just see that these women can train

similarly. Again, you're training close to failure anywhere from four reps all the way up to

30 reps. You are targeting muscles one to two times per week, two ish times. If you can,

you're giving your body enough recovery. We see that even in peri and postmenopausal women,

that works so well. You can do that, whether you are 20, 30, 40 and beyond. And it will continue

to be effective, which is just so empowering because I just, I think when we overcomplicate things,

we just don't say consistent. Yeah. Yeah. And, and everything else that you've said as well,

which is like leading into activities that you enjoy doing that work for you. Yes.

Finding a schedule that works for you. I know you've answered this in different ways. I wanted

to kind of find one place to have the answer. If you could help design someone's ideal workout

schedule week, what would it look like? If you follow these four things, I can pretty much guarantee

you will see muscle growth. So reps are EPS each letter stands for a different principle of building

muscle. You can forget everything else you know about fitness and just focus on these four things.

The R stands for repetitions. Like we said, training two failure or one to three reps,

shy failure in every set of every exercise. Rep ranges can be anywhere from four reps,

all the way up to 30 reps or anywhere in between. You can change it up based on your preference,

based on the exercise, based on the day. Exercise selection is number two. That's the E.

Two important things with that exercise selection. I think about choosing one muscle group to work

at a time, not trying to combine upper and lower body like we talked about. Number two,

choosing exercises that feel good in your body and that you enjoy so that you can reliably take

that muscle group close to failure. There's no one required exercise that everyone has to do.

P is protein, eating .75 to 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight per day.

And S is structure. So working each muscle group two is times per week on non consecutive days,

splitting those workouts into three to five workouts per week. So if you follow those things,

you can kind of play within those guidelines to find what allows you to stay the most consistent,

but you can pretty reliably, I can pretty reliably tell you that you will see results. I will say,

it takes time. People think that if they've been working out for a month, they should miraculously

see their body change. Muscle growth takes about eight to 12 weeks. So make sure that you're not

giving up before you're seeing the results. So make sure that you're consistent for at least 12

weeks before you change things up. Yeah, I think that patient spot is so important. The

clarity of just knowing because I think you watch everyone on social media and I was like,

this is what I did in 30 days. And you're like, wait, why can't I do that in 30 days?

I know. And it's it's a shame because yes, you can lose fat in a short amount of time. But like,

are you going to be able to sustain that? So many people do these fitness challenges. And then

they just they burn out. And then they and back up at square one. And they maybe even lost some

muscle while they did it. If they were in an aggressive calorie deficit or doing a lot of cardio.

And not only are they back at square one, but they're worse than when they started. So,

um, yeah, being it for the long haul, we've got the rest of our lives to work out.

What's the biggest workout myth you've seen on social media?

You would think that this would die because we have so much information that it's not true,

but spot treating fat. So trying to do crunches or doing a workout with the intention that it will

make you toned up or, quote, unquote, snatch. That's the term that internet loves right now in

a certain area. So like for your bat wings, this exercise will help get rid of your bat wings. This

exercise will help flatten your lower belly pooch. Those are all things that I see. And we just

find that exercise cannot spot treat fat. You can't preferentially choose where you lose fat.

Fat loss happens systemically across your whole body and your body chooses where it mobilizes fat

first. You can't really control that unfortunately. Um, so I think that this causes people to overwork

certain muscle groups in their body and be frustrated when they're not seeing the results that

they were promised. Yeah. That's, that's good to know. I think that's, uh,

everyone knows that, but you're hoping someone's gonna totally, you know, it's like, yeah,

it's like a painful truth. I love it. Shannon, is there anything that I haven't asked you today that

you wish I did ask you? I don't think so. I, my hope is that I don't want anyone to listen to this

and feel like they're doing it wrong or defensive. I just hope that people listen to this episode

and take away that there's a way to get strong, get fit. Yes, see the asceticals that you're after,

but also be nicer to yourself along the way. I've been there. I know what it feels like to smash

your body and my hope is that this just gives people the empowerment and the education to do that.

So I hope it helps people. What was the hardest point in your personal health journey that youth

experienced? I think my chronic pain from overuse, thinking that it was my body that was the

problem. When really it was my workout, that was the problem. It was that I was doing at least an

hour of exercise every day, hard exercise, not taking recovery days, feeling guilty for taking

recovery days. Like my Saturday and Sunday, if I didn't work out, I'd be like, oh, I should have

done that. I feel so bad being glued to my fitness watch. I remember if I didn't burn enough

calories in my workout, I would literally do jumping jacks in my apartment at the end of the day

to try to hit that calorie goal. And now I don't even track any of that. And I see so much better

results. And I just want to scream this from the rooftops because it truly is such a mental

and physical transformation, but you just have to give it enough time and give your body the right

stimulus. And tell me about the platform Evo that you built because people can find these programs

and plans on there, right? Yes. Yes. So Evo is my fitness platform. It every class all follow

on classes. So if you like to follow a class, this is great because we are training with you. We are

doing the workout with you. We're showing you what it looks like and feels like to get close to

failure. We are giving you all the options you have for certain exercise. If you don't like an

exercise, you can see all the options right there. We structure the week for you. So you know,

you're getting enough volume and frequency. The workouts are only 35 minutes. And each class is

taught by a doctor of physical therapy. So we're really helping you understand your body because we

believe education is so important. So you can work out with us three, four or five times per week,

depending on your schedule. It's all effective. All works great. Evelafitness.com. Yeah.

That's awesome. It's great. There's a destination for people to actually find all of this. I think

you've given so much insight today and so much education and busted so many myths for us,

but I'm glad that people can actually go to the platform to find a plan and commit to a plan.

And I'd love to see so many people have been listening and watching today go and build a new

30 day habit and lock in and find a consistent schedule that they love there as well. I hope so too.

And could I give a code to your listeners? Okay. They can use on purpose for six weeks.

Free. I love that. So they can really really get it. And then if you do those six weeks,

you're halfway there to seeing visible muscle growth. So okay, use the code on purpose.

On purpose for six weeks free at Evelafitness.com. Six weeks free. That's awesome. Okay. Thank you so

much. Yay. That's so kind. That's that's incredible. Yeah. I hope everyone goes and use that. You

got six weeks of free workouts. Yes. That's unbelievable. That's so much health and support. Thank you.

Oh, good. Of course. Of course. That's huge. Shannon, we end every episode of on purpose with a final

five. These questions after we answered in one sentence maximum. Oh gosh. I'm going to struggle

with that. I'll do my best. I often break the rules because I'm so intrigued. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Dr. Shannon Richie, these are your final five. Okay. The first question is what is the

best advice you've ever heard or received? Take personal responsibility for any change that you

want to see in your life. That's a great answer. We haven't heard that before. I love that. Great

answer. I couldn't agree with you more. I think personal accountability, agency,

yes, it builds confidence, it builds self-esteem, like all of the self-love, self-belief stuff we

talk about. It only comes when you take accountability for each change you want to see in your life.

It's up to you. Nobody else is going to come save you. It's up to you. It's so empowering.

Great answer. Second question. What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

No pain, no gain. Yeah. Yeah. I think it comes back to fitness. I mean, that just,

yeah, no pain, no gain was really so not effective for me in so many ways. Question number three,

what's a fitness habit or workout that you wish you started earlier? I wish I would have

built muscle at the age of 19 or 20. Because it would have been easier to hold on to.

Yes. It compounds. Yeah. It gets easier the more you do it. And the beauty about muscle is that

if you were to ever lose it, it comes back quicker the second time you build it. So investing in it

that first time is the hardest, but it will pay you back over and over and over. Well,

incredible. Question number four, something that you used to value that you don't value anymore

when it comes to your health. My fitness watch. I used to obsess about burning calories.

And I just don't do that anymore because I just know it's not very effective and reliable.

And so I don't use that as a way to measure my workouts anymore.

Do you think it's important for a certain period of time? Is it valuable for people to do that or

and how should they use it if they are using data? What should we count? Actually,

it's probably a broader question you can ask in more than one sentence. Like, what should people count?

What should people measure when it comes to weight loss, fat loss, muscle gain? What should we be

tracking? I think food and strength training are obviously the number one things. We also want to

stay overall active. We see from data that around 7,500 steps per day is associated with positive

health outcomes. So I do have an aura ring and I will sometimes I just like to track like

different seasons of my life. I've had it for like three years and I just like to look back and see

like, oh, when I was in a super stressful time in my life, I wasn't very active. How can I maybe

change something about my day to day to stay more active or what lifestyle habits can I

adjust during a stressful period of my of my life? So I like to use trackers to just kind of

give you an overall activity, a picture of your activity rather than obsessing about hitting

a certain number because what we see is, you know, if you're active overall, like doing a ton more

isn't necessarily going to give you a ton more gain. That makes sense. Yeah, and that's just how we

think about everything. I know. I know. You do see diminishing returns with exercise and this is not

me saying don't be as active as possible. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying a lot of people

think that it has to be all or nothing and so they end up doing nothing. Amazing. Fifth and final

question, we ask this, every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law

that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Maybe this is me just being an optimist,

but giving people the benefit of the doubt, not fitness related at all, I just find that we're all

trying to do our best and you don't know what somebody is going through and so if you have a negative

interaction, trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, even if they had bad intentions,

it feels better for you to give them the benefit of the doubt. Well, maybe they're going through,

maybe they had a death in the family or maybe they're going through something that I don't,

I can't see or know. So that's what I really do try to do and it's hard. It's not that I'm

perfect at it, but I wish that I wish that more people did that too. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Dr. Shannon Ridgeham, so grateful that we got to spend this time together. I feel like I learned

so much of workouts. I'm never going to look the same. I know that everyone in my audience will

have gained such a wealth of insight, whether it's about building muscle, weight loss, losing fat,

or even learning about our precious feet and our precious eyes that we undervalue and underestimate.

I hope that our audience will go and connect with you on the Evlo platform and find

them all workouts and schedules that they can live by and follow and I hope we get to see you

again here on the show. I would love to be back anytime. Yeah, that was fantastic. Thank you so

much. Thank you for having me. Thank you. If you love this episode, you'll love my conversation with

four-time Grand Slam Champion, Arena Sabilecka, where she reflects on her latest victory and the

mental battles that almost broke her along the way. For me, success is the discipline that you put in,

be there every morning, every practice, doesn't matter how you feel, doesn't matter if you want it.

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Lately I've been trying to be more intentional, even with small decisions, like cooking at home instead

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That's why I love the state farm personal price plan. It lets you bundle home and auto insurance

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choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbour, state farm is there.

Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the

customer, availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

Success starts with your drive. An American public university is here to fuel it.

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