Duggar Survivors and the Long Road Out — A Psychotherapist on What Recovery From This System Really Takes

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Jill Dugger spent years in therapy before she could talk openly about her childhood.

This last week, she made a statement condemning Joseph's alleged abuse and supporting the victim.

Jill is just one of hundreds of thousands who grew up in IBLP, most of whom have never been on TV

or had a public voice. This conversation is going to be looking at what people need to recover

from such a system and what those involved right now need most. We were kind of talking about

this a little bit in our last segment. Jill is one who was able to see the lights, if you will,

and get out. Something struck her that this is off. This is wrong. This is not the way I want to

live. This is not the way I want to raise my family or continue existing in the world.

And we talked about ways that people can get in there, can inspire the existing ones

to see the light and to see that there's a world outside of this cult-like system that they're

growing up in. When you have something like this, a family that is so dug in, they're the

doggers, is it in a situation like this? And to anybody else out there who may be in a similar type

situation who has a family member that still stuck in one of these cult-like things,

is it incumbent upon that person to try and help get the other family members out to help them

see the light? Because it is such a brick wall because there is not a lot of other influences or

voices going in there that can help inspire these people to see reality, to educate them.

If you are one of the few people who may be able to infiltrate that,

somewhat covertly not going in there going, mom and dad are crazy, but slowly get in there and show

them. What sort of responsibility exists if Annie, to those who have escaped it, to help their siblings,

maybe I'm being extreme, maybe I'm not survive and move into a life that isn't prone to this sort of chaos.

I think it's a wonderful thing to do, but some of the, let's say you have a family with a lot of

siblings and you're the person that is broken free from it, there are going to be some of your

siblings who may be ready to hear a dose of reality and they may be questioning. Often this

is the person or the people who are really suffering because what happens particularly to women in

these kind of systems, they struggle with depression, but they never admit it because it's not safe

to talk about it, it's not safe to have any other emotional expression other than joy, you're

supposed to be joyful all the time and so often people are struggling and suffering and sometimes

those are the people that you can connect with. There's a bit of an open door there, but there are

people who are so rigid and so indoctrinated, they're not going to listen and they're going to get

angry if you even try. So you sort of have to feel your way through that, but I think it's a

wonderful thing to do to try and get in there bond with someone and have a very heart-to-heart

connection that may help the door crack open so that they can start to see a way out and start

to develop a sense of what this really is making me unhappy. It's like the matrix. Some people are

ready to be rescued from the matrix and other people just want to stay in the matrix because it's

warm and comfortable and cozy. That's interesting. Because when you talk about it, the safety and

security, those are two very important things to every single human being out there, regardless of

how you were brought up or you were religion, but safety and security, how you define that,

is going to be an individual thing to everybody and the way that it's been defined and bred

basically into these people is the umbrella system. Is dad is end-all-be-all? What he says

is it? He is the safety and security. And when dad's telling you that, no, the outside people

here telling you this, this is bad. Don't listen to them. But when you actually do get out of it,

let's say, you know, like Jill, I don't know Jill. I'm not trying to speak for her in any way,

but I would imagine that would have been a struggle for a while for anyone that's escaping that

sort of a system of where your default is safety and security means dad. It means this overpowering

overwhelming system that is going to tell you, yes, no, right, wrong, and that's it. And there's

no gray area. When that's then eliminated from your life and dad's not there to do that,

that is a scary prospect. That threatens your safety and security because what had actually

been your safety and security all that time was truly the biggest threat to your well-being,

but you called it your safety and security. You didn't know. It's you have to redefine a lot of

these terms that has got to be a very complicated thing to do. A lot of adults are grew up in IBLP

describe having no idea what normal looks like. They never made an autonomous decision,

never owned their own body, never developed an independent identity. What is the actual clinical

work of building a self that was never allowed to form when you're an adult? It's really, that's a

perfect word, you know, because that group has become their identity. They don't have a very strong

sense of self. And again, that will vary from person to person. But I think when I work with clients

like that and going back to my own experience, it's number one helping them recognize their own

emotions, their own internal emotional experience because you're taught to deny it. I remember being

14 years old and I had a sticky note on the mirror in my bathroom. The only reason I'm alive today

is to serve God in all I do. And so that was don't have a self. Don't feel your feelings. Feelings

were dangerous. Thinking was dangerous, right? You just repeat Bible verses in your head all the time.

So clinically, you have to, you have to get beyond all that. What do you really feel? What do you

really think when you step back from this? And that can be really earth shaking, but really

wonderful at the same time. It can feel like a weight off as people start to to get a sense,

you know, I do have my own thoughts. I do have my own feelings. And sometimes it can happen

pretty rapidly. Although the echoes linger, you know, they can linger for a lifetime. That old

programming can pop back up every now and then. But I think overall, it's a wonderful process

for people when they have some support and some help. And the right therapist to understand these

kind of systems can really make a big difference for them. Yeah, how do you build back? And

I can't imagine the challenge. And as a therapist, Shivon, of building back from being crushed. So,

you know, in all these situations, in Jill situation, and when you had this aha moment,

they were taught from the moment of birth, all the way up, that it's all about service,

it's all about relationships, our relationship, God, and it's all about being about others,

especially from the father figure taking care of the daughter. So, always think, you know,

they trust a dad, they always do good by the family. And then you have literally a bone-crushing

moment when that critical thinking comes in and that critical thinking, what it really is doing,

it's exposed in a fact that they're not actually acting in my best interest. They're treating me

as an object for their own gain. How do you help someone come back from that and have them feel

valued again? Because really, all of a sudden, they were devalued by that group organization,

individual that said their entire lives that you're valued as an individual, you're valued as a

daughter, you're valued as a child, a God, and all of a sudden, I was just a means to the end.

Yeah. I think that's the point that a lot of people cut off their families. They at least cut

them off for a period of time and some people cut them off permanently because they want to

individuate, they want to separate from the families. And it's really helpful to have a new

peer group. There are a lot of support groups for people who are ex-fundamentalists, you know,

who can support each other through that. And that's, I think, I think it's surprising sometimes

to see how quickly people grow and develop that self that they never did before. And it's possible.

I always encourage people to, you know, to embrace life, to embrace new things, embrace new people,

read all the books that you weren't allowed to read before. And it's like the world opens up.

And it's just wonderful to feel like you really are recreating yourself.

And I think that you make such a good point of understanding why these support groups are so

important because you're literally cut off from feeling like you're valued by anyone to actually

zero. You're going from 100 to zero. And so actually kind of being reabsorbed back into a healthy

group where you're seen and valued and you can start moving forward again is so critical.

And I would imagine a lot of them feel like they're the only one doing this. I mean, they've

already been told, you know, it's equivalent to witchcraft and crack cocaine and everything horrible

in the world for having different opinions or thinking slightly differently or questioning.

Just asking the damn question. Is this really, does this make sense? So feeling alone and isolated,

you know, that's if you break apart, that's what they want because that'll bring you back.

That's part of how the system is designed. So having that support is invaluable to someone who

finds themselves in that sort of a situation. Joel has said that she needs strict boundaries

with her parents for her own mental health. I think, you know, almost anyone whether they had a

fundamentalist family like this or or just a religious family. And let's say they're they're just

not super down with that anymore as they go back for the holidays. There's always going to be

some level of conflict and differences from parent to child or family member to family member.

But this is quite an extreme one. Once once you've left a system like this and you're able to

look back at the damage, when you walked away, you might have gone, oh, yeah, that looks, you know,

it was a bit of a flood, you know, there's they picked up the pieces and things are good. And then

you spend a few years, you look back at the damage you walked away from and you're like, oh,

God, that was hurricane Andrew. It was it was horrific. What I walked away from it's it's it's not

even something you'd be like, Oh, you know, how you doing? It's got to be difficult to have any

sort of relationship with people like this and have boundaries because that sort of a system

doesn't know boundaries right from from the parental aspect down because again, the dad the mom

can kind of do anything they want according to the system and and and so they're the bounds are

not there and they don't need to necessarily respect the wishes of the child because they're

below them. It's all hierarchal is in a situation like this. Is there ever truly a way to to

maintain or have any semblance of a relationship when you are no longer practicing the bullshit and

the family is still 1000% seeped in it as a way of life? I I think most people in those extreme cases

do the cutoff with the family. Maybe they will correspond with an occasional email how you doing

but they really do not spend time together. They don't go home for holidays. That's just most of

the time. I never try to mandate to people you know the right way to do it. I think everybody has

to sort of feel that through themselves but occasionally I'm thinking of one friend who she says I

just let it all roll off you know she sees her parents maybe once a year for a couple hours and

they try to preach it or and she knows it's coming and she just ignores it and lets it roll off but

they're never going to listen to her. They're they don't care about her point of view and but I think

probably the majority of people just say I can't take this and if the parents are rigid and won't

respect boundaries like let's not talk about religion you know and the parents do it anyway.

It's it's pretty rough for people and they but I mean some some of the modality there is the

parents believe their their salvation depends on on spreading the word and forcing it down

someone else's throat and so they have they have a different motivation that motivation is not

the well-being of the child it just goes back to their own self-preservation at the end of the day

and that seems to be the problem with so many of of religions is it ends up being 100% about self-preservation

while being marketed as it's all about everybody else. Isn't it amazing that here it is that you're

in a in a group and organization that is saying it's about service and and and evangelizing and

spreading the word and yet your own children won't take that word and yet you're now making the

choice to allow your children to distance themselves from you because you're prioritizing that.

So in other words you're being selfish in not focusing on your children first it just again

it it's just it's so incongruous with what they're saying it's mental gymnastics. Yeah and it shows

that that this whole thing is really twisted and it's about narcissistic spirituality right.

It's a good term. Yeah it's true it's abusive spirituality and it's really about the individuals

at the top of the chain here it's not about love it's not about serving it's not about

you know helping your children develop it's all about them and the boosting of their own ego

and their own sense of righteousness. It's interesting every time we come across cases like this some

reminded of the movie I think it's called a heretic it's it's it's it's a creepy thriller horror

movie but it really comes down to that this guy in the movie just researching and researching

and researching the most ancient religion on the face of the planet in our species and it is a

religion of control yeah and the mental gymnastics that need to be done to to participate in it

with a straight face it certainly is the circus of the stars over there on the count.

You like that one I thought I got for I got for a deep one the circus of the stars

as a mental gymnastics with the the narcissist spiritual spiritually bankrupt folks that we're

talking about the let's talk about one more thing on this the 14-year-old girl who's a victim

that that really has brought this whole damn thing back to light she was nine when this took place

we don't know you know these are allegations against Joseph he's allegedly admitted to them on

the phone the hearings all that have yet to take place so it is what it is everything's innocent

proving guilty what are the odds this is the only one I mean statistically speaking here I don't

think it was one day he's like oh I wonder what what would be like if I took a blanket over here

and went to this nine-year-old and started touching her inappropriately I'm thinking this might

be a pattern because folks like that aren't necessarily created in a vacuum I'm going to guess

there's a lot of other victims out there again I don't know it I'm not saying there is but I'm

saying statistically odds wise there probably is is this just the tip of the iceberg of maybe

might we finally be seeing the the final destruction of the doggers with what may come out after this

this allegation because this is not that it's anything small but this is more extreme and even

more disturbing I would say I think to a lot of folks than the CSAM material that Josh had in

his computer this is actual action as an adult against a child predatory behavior human to human

yeah that was the first thing that came to my my mind is that usually when there's one victim who

comes forward you investigate and eventually other victims come forward to and it's also

possible that as I said some of them will be male victims it's yeah probably just the tip of the

iceberg is there anyway the doggers can say that like if you're if you're looking at it you know

right now and you're going okay hmm you're gonna PR is gonna be a big part of this uh for them

is they navigate they can either dig in deeper which they seem to have always done we love our

family we love our kids we're not gonna say much we're gonna go hide in our cold um that may be the

end of it I mean this could also be uh this if the doggers love their money and they and they

love the attention I don't know that they do I'm just speaking you know out loud here um but if

they really want to truly make a difference I mean you could you could totally use this as a

we were duped moment we we we were as a family we went into this this religion thinking this

way and that way and we were deceived my goodness let's let's call all of this I think it could

really be a total changing learning moment for the world and I'm sure that's not going to happen

but but how how how PR wise um you know do you think this should be handled on the part of

of those who didn't aren't charged with any crime here but are in proximity to this

and and clearly have a track record of covering up this sort of behavior in the past uh with family

members yeah we hope that more people speak out um we've got to do what you're doing keep shining

a light on it and my guess is that over time this kind of exposure will have a really positive

impact and and it's got to be shaking people in the organization up to realize that you know

the blinders are coming off and as I say it only takes a few people to start questioning

to to start seeing a shift in groups like this one can only hope one can only hope

your thoughts in the comments section on substack and youtube have you been uh a victim of the

iblp or uh coercively controlling religious organization we'd love to hear your story uh i'm sure

a lot of people are going to be sharing theirs in the comments as they find this and going oh

this seems familiar uh please do uh there's a great community here uh that that would love to hear

your story and can probably commiserate as well so in the comments uh we'll continue our conversation

there be sure to press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts as well shavon's book if you

want to check it out highly recommended night bird she shares her stories in it

doing growing up in that sort of an environment and uh roba's new book as well it's not all about

me available also wherever books are sold all right until next time for shavon robin and totem

toni bruski will talk again real soon want more on this case and others then press subscribe now

and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from toni bruski and the hidden killer's podcast

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