EILEEN GU: “The Ground Was Cracking Beneath Me.”

0:00Honestly, my feed earlier this year was full of your interviews. I was like, who's this sharp, smart, eloquent, incredible athlete? And then we saw each other at the Dior show in LA. And I had on my heart, I've never done this to anyone else in the world. I came right to you and I was like, I'm a fan. I want you on the show. And thankfully you wanted to come on too. I'm, first of all, so flattered to hear you say that. Secondly, the feeling is absolutely mutual. I think what you do is so incredible. And you bring this very enlightened, but also highly accessible, high touch, very applicable to real life kind of approach to so many people. And I genuinely believe you've made so many people's lives better. Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I wish you're thinking about you for a minute. And I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Hi, Linggu.

1:06Welcome to On Purpose. Thank you for having me, Jay. I'm so happy to be here. I wanted to start by asking you today, you're doing everything. I mean, you've graduated from one of the best schools in the world. You are one of the highest regarded athletes in the world in your field, fashion, business. We know all of this from your resume. But something you wish people knew about you that you couldn't read on your resume. I think for a long time, there was this sense of wanting to justify my academics as independent from sport. And so initially it was in the sporting community, I would be the biggest nerd. I was always helping people with homework. I was kind of known as this academic person. And then over time as I became more well known, I think the general assumption or presumption that maybe we hold socially as a society is that athletes maybe go to school, but they don't really go to school. That kind of just like implication. And I think undercutting that was harder for me. And at the same time, really important, just because at my core, I think of myself more

2:08as an intellectual person who chose to do sports and to apply that kind of cerebral take in like an athletic context. It could have been something else versus an athlete who thinks they are smart. I think that's like an important distinction to make. And so I think one thing for me was getting into Stanford when I was 16 and doing that before the Olympics so that I had my, what would have been my senior year and then a gap year. So those two years to be like full time. That was my first time being pro as in like full time as an athlete. Before that, I was Monday through Friday in school, just totally normal. I was the first person in our high school's history to graduate early to kind of make that situation work, but it was not because it was an Olympic accommodation. It was because I had done the credits and found a way to graduate early and that was really special as well. So I think what's misunderstood is maybe that how much to the extent that I value education and seeing that as like the fundamental layer and building on top of that.

3:12As a young girl, were you always athletically and academically inclined at the same time were they two paths that always existed? I think yes. My mom did an incredible job just putting me into everything. Like literally everything, very obscure things if you think about it and like have no interaction with one another, right? Like I did archery, I did like horseback riding, I did rock climbing and at one point I tried swimming and tennis, but then I, you know, longer term I did soccer and basketball in cross country. I did ballet, I did piano, I did singing lessons like everything. My mom would say that I was athletic. There were a couple sports that I thought were pretty impactful running, being one of them and I hold that to this day. And then obviously skiing when I started on my ski team at seven or eight years old. But again, I would say that I was much more known as like the nerd in my class than the athlete in my class. And what would you net out on? What were the things that you were fascinated by or drawn towards? In elementary and middle school I went through a K to eight all-girl school.

4:16And so every year we would have like the school slash, like math wouldn't be a kind of thing. And so like I won that in our grade every year and our science. You know, I did that both years that it was available and like won that in our school. So I think it was like math and science were definitely my big things. And then interestingly when I got into high school, it kind of moved more into like literature and philosophy. And so over time it's been like I would say I have an analytical lens to everything. And I take more of like a philosophical like overview on top of that. Yeah, when I watch you do an interview, I'm like this is a philosopher speaking with the academic, with a scholar. Oh my gosh, I'm like take me to church, I leave. I'm like I want to come to this motivational lecture by Eileen Goo. Like that's a way for watching you. I'm like God, I'm inspired. This is incredible. And I mean, I mean, I'm being silly but I'm also being extremely genuine when I say that. Like it's everything that you share is pointing and powerful. I want to get into that. But before we do, can you take me back to a childhood memory that you have that you feel

5:18defines who you are today? Firstly, thank you so much for saying that. I'm like deeply flattered and humbled. And I do want to say that like nothing that I said during the Olympics was calculated. Like I had no idea what any of the questions were going to be. So if it had been something else, I would have answered something else. It's more to my heart. And I think a big part of that was like having an academic foundation to be able to think to begin with. And so there's that. So like I've never done PR training. Like I don't really know what that is. I don't really know what that would entail. I just sit and think man, like I just a lot of thinking and I'm sure that you're like so on board with that. Absolutely. This is going to sound really crazy. I started journaling very early. I was probably around four and I think I was given a journal maybe as like a gift or something I don't remember particularly. But I remember very distinctly. It was one of those journals that had like a little lock on it. And I really liked it because it was my first thing that I felt like was really mine. And contextualizing privacy and like having this thing where it's like my brain outside of my brain and it's like only mine and I can protect it with this little like lock

6:19and key mechanism. So I thought that was really special. And in the first page of the journal, I wrote along these lines, dear journal, my name is Eileen. I'm four years old. I'm writing this now so that when you are reading this, when it is published, like you will believe that I actually was four and wrote this, which I think about now. And there's just like let's unpack this, right? A, the hubris that I had as a four year old to think that I would do something substantive and then B, to like write a book about it and C, that there would be anyone in the world that would possibly care to consume this like writing of a four year old, right? Like what was the assumption that I had not started like freesking? I had no idea what freesking was. I had no idea what I was going to do in life. I didn't even know what I was going to be journaling about. But in my head, I was like, one day I'm going to publish this and I'm going to do something important enough that people are going to care to read it and that this is going to be meaningful and impactful enough to be worth writing about. Obviously, you know, it wasn't in that.

7:19But like that was kind of like the implication, right? Which is kind of interesting to think about as a four year old. So yeah, I don't really know what that means. I'm going to come from, like I have no idea, but yeah. And one day you will have to publish that. And we'll get to read it. You are. That's incredible. You'll have to come back on to talk about the book. Where you can? This episode of on purpose is presented by Ultra Running. We all benefit from having a little more space so do our feet. That's why ultra running shoes feature ultra fit design, giving toes more room for comfort, balance and strength. They're perfect for running, walking or hiking, any pace, any level. They feel right from the first step. Go to ultra running.com forward slash on purpose and use code purpose 10 for 10% off. That's AL, TRA running.com forward slash on purpose. Stay out there. That's incredible though. I love hearing about how people start so young and those habits start so young. Have you journaled pretty much every day since that time or did you fall in and out of

8:22love with it? Yeah. I definitely not every day. Also, I would say my journaling habit is actually less like dear diary. This is what I did today. I would describe it more as like an anthology of essays. What is one thematic principle that keeps recurring, maybe today or this week or within a month? Give me a minute, please. I just keep returning. A recurring theme I have is on womanhood. It's my continual grasping with my sense of femininity, growing into that. How do I balance my masculine, feminine sides? How do I inhabit my power without feeling shameful about it? I will also without feeling performative about it. That has been so complex because I was the only girl in my ski team, but also I mentioned I went to an all-girl school. Monday to Friday, I would be only around girls and then weekends, I would be only around boys. I was like acutely aware of gender and gender dynamics and also the power that holds when you're the only one. If you're the only girl in a ski team, you feel like you're carrying all of womanhood

9:23on your shoulders because you're the only one who's representing. If you're good, then you're dispelling all of these myths. If you're bad, then you're corroborating them. Suddenly I'm the end of one sample that is upholding all of these stereotypes. I was super aware of that when I was seven or eight. Over time, with introducing fashion with all of these other elements into my life, I've grown a lot, but I would say I'm still working on it. That's fascinating. That you have a space that is beyond the public eye that's private to you with that lock and key that allows you to have these exchanges with yourself around your philosophy on life and how you approach it. Even what you were just saying now in knowing how you're masculine, feminine fits, what have been your latest reflections on your masculinity and femininity and where they fit into your life and where you see them being expressed? So I started working with you. Congratulations. We love Jonathan Anderson. Thank you. He's amazing. I think he plays with it so interestingly because if you think about a do-or-face, it's

10:27fresh, it's young, but the outfit is not reductive in that sense. It's not something that's one dimensional of here as a caricature of a teenage girl and we're going to slap it on a grown woman. It doesn't feel like that at all. There's this modern strength slash. The silhouette is a lot more inclusive and there's almost like a tomboyish style within like a very flowy feminine fabric or print. That kind of comparison between cut and style when you're shooting an editorial, for example, how do you pose to bring that out? How do you work with shapes and lighting and expression and different hair and makeup and a different look to embody a very multi-dimensional sense of femininity? It's not like femininity is the color pink. We all smile and we all wear this haircut and we all do XYZ and that's what being a woman is. It's like understanding it in all its multi-dimensional nuance. That was something that I did maybe two days ago and I was thinking about recently. You're in all the oil today.

11:28Of course. We love it. On brand. You started training when you were seven or eight you said. What does training for being a freesky look like at seven to eight? Talk to me about the regime, the discipline, the diet. What are you having to do at that age to build this phenomenal skillset you have to do today? I think you're giving me a little too much credit. What do you mean? I mean, it was a ski team that occurred on weekends in our start, Tahoe. I think there was maybe like a couple of weekday options for people who were local but since I went to school in San Francisco, what would usually happen would be Monday to Friday in school normally. Then on Friday after school, my mom would pick me up, drive the four hours to get to Tahoe during which I would, you know, when I was younger, sleep. Then as I got older, you know, do homework, eat prep, do whatever I need to do. Saturday morning, I would wake up and this is actually an important distinction. A lot of people think my mom is a tiger mom. She's totally not. Her number one thing was always sleep. So I was always the last person to get to ski team. Like I was always the last person because we would get there so late after school and I'd

12:30be the only one driving from San Francisco. And so she would let me sleep until I woke up naturally. You know, usually I would not wake up before eight. I would go skiing maybe from like nine, nine, 30 until ski team would end at two 30. And then my mom and I would probably ski another hour just to take advantage. You know, we're already in Tahoe. But when I was training, it was so much fun. It was so fun. And I think that was the most important factor and still is to this day. I mentioned I was the only girl in my ski team, but beyond that, skiing was the great equalizer, right? Anybody who's a human knows what it feels like when you're terrified, right? And that is not a gender divided thing. And you know how elated you feel when you're asking your body to do something it's never done before. And like that kind of very like human and very saturated kind of like emotion just makes you bond with the people that you're experiencing with that much more. And so of course, it would be little challenges. You know, I remember my coach would be like, whoever can slide this rail the longest gets

13:34a dollar or a sticker or a gummy bear. And it just encouraged this really healthy sportsmanship and really healthy competition. And you know, this was pretty puberty. So I was definitely one of the best. It's not the best on the team. And there were several others and you know, we would be jostling for that position. And like maybe one day someone learns a new trick. And I remember so distinctly, my first time sliding a rail. So there's like boxes in the train park and then rails are like the, you know, like a hand rail. And so this one, I remember so vividly, it was my entire team. I was going to be sitting next to the rail and I was the first person on our team to slide the rail. And I remember I, you know, everyone's lined up. They're watching, you know, I was like, keyed up. I do it. And it's just like this chorus of, you know, seven and eight year old boys like, wow, I mean, and of course, you know, by the end of the day, every single person slid the rail. But that was just the sense of like pure joy. And you're really sharing it with people that you form lifelong bonds with and who I'm still very close with to this day. And though the others didn't go on to become professional skiers, we still just will

14:34always share that bond. And that's really special. That's incredible. You speak about your mom so beautifully. Of course, I met her at the Dior show. She's with us here today. Yeah. Talk to me about how much you learned from your mom and your grandma that was beyond just this incredible dedication she had to you, this ability to want you to sleep, but then driving you four hours like that level of devotion to you and wanting you to have this full rich life. What were the lessons that we may not see through that that you've experienced and feel from your mother and grandma? If I were to distill it, I would say my grandma was the dreamer. She is the most jauntless, just go get her optimist that I've ever met in my entire life. When she was my age, she was an electrical engineer at one of the largest copper mines in China at 21, which is crazy. I'm 22 now. And that was in her generation in China. Wow. As a woman. I talk about being a woman of male dominated sport. She was in the mines.

15:36Overseas men in the mines. At 20, that's obscene. I can't even imagine. Not once has she ever had a victim mentality. Not once has she ever thought, oh, it was so difficult. Oh, I was the only woman. She was like, of course. You think they could keep up? Of course, I was the only one who could do it. What about us? Why would they be able to do that? I need to. She had older brothers and she would always say how she was keeping them in line. So there was never a sense of oppression for her. Even if objectively the circumstances she grew up in were very difficult. She lost her mother at a very young age. And so losing that kind of female force in her life, I just can't even imagine. And yet she just went on to become this fierce, fierce woman. And for that, I will always, always admire her. That's beautiful. She definitely passed that on to my mom. My mom, I would say, is the efficiency queen. So she gets things done. In modern speak, in like Silicon Valley, she's an operator.

16:36She is the one who will ask, okay, how? And so she will not do unnecessary suffering. She will not work for the sake of working. She will do the shortest path and the most efficient to do something with high quality and uncompromising results and attention to detail. So anything she produces is the highest quality. But she is not the one who's going to stay up late all night to do it. She's not the one who's going to suffer unnecessarily. And so between the two of them, I think my grandma will set the stage and set the direction. And my mom gave me kind of the toolkit, if you will, to then it go on and achieve it. So in that way, I would feel like the two of them almost like co-parented, slash formed the basis for these two really complementary parts of me. Yeah, you've got the vision and the tools. Yes. And the dreams and the practices. Exactly. That's pretty spectacular. Yes. It's incredible. I mean, when I'm hearing about your grandma, I'm like, wow, the fact that she was doing that 21 in her generation in China is unbelievable. I know a lot of people look at you today and they're like, I've failed at life.

17:39I'm really behind. Eileen Goo has achieved everything in the world by taking the age 22. I feel like I can hear that now. Totally. If someone was listening to us right now and they're thinking, Jay Eileen, I feel behind. I feel stuck. I'm 22 years old. I'm 25. I haven't achieved anything yet. I don't know who I am. What would you say to them? Oh my gosh. I feel the same way. Absolutely. And I think the reason for that is a, pedonic treadmill theory, generally speaking, right? And so the idea being you acclimate so quickly to your circumstances that it's no longer objective. It's not like, oh, I reach a certain benchmark and I will be happy. It's the faster you run, the faster it moves and you just keep going and going and going. And so relatively, you can feel exactly the same as anybody in your peer group, irrespective of these kind of like objective goals and achievements. And so I would say, I think this is a hallmark of our age. Like I think being in your early 20s, mid 20s, late 20s, this is like a point in your life where it's really important to feel that way.

18:41And I almost think of that as like activation energy. I mean, generally in chemistry, it's like you can't perform a reaction without catalyzed, like a catalyst. You need some kind of energy either within the system or externally introduced to create it. And so that dynamism and maybe we kind of create that and like feel it's like discomfort. But the fact of the matter is it's energy that doesn't know where to go. And so that's a neutral thing. It's more about redirecting it instead of like sitting with this golf ball or butterfly or whatever you want to kind of think about it as like bouncing inside of you feeling really uncomfortable. It's more about doing the self work to know where that energy goes. But the fact that you have it as a hallmark of being young is so beautiful. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying that we fight that limerence and we almost want it to go away. Uh-huh. Rather than what I'm hearing you say is actually if you channel it, if you redirect it, if you put it forward, then actually that's going to propel you. Yes. That's going to make the difference. I think so. But knowing what direction to take is so much harder than people think.

19:41And my mom and I talk about this all the time where I think hard work is super important. But over praised direction underrated. And so we think about this as like who's working the hardest, who's doing the most. But if you're punching a wall, who's punching the wall the hardest? That's not helpful. Like who's getting to the destination? If you can walk around a column, maybe it's easier than punching the wall. So it's not necessarily about doing the most. What's more important is the direction. And so I think having that activation energy is super important. What's more important though at our age is taking the time to figure out the direction. And that's worth the time that it takes to explore. And I'm saying this as if I'm some kind of like sage entity. I'm like, wow, I've been through it. I crash out about this like every night. Every night. I'm like, oh my god, what am I going to do? Like I'm so behind. I feel like I'm not living up to my potential. I have so many ideas and so many things to do. And I'm not materializing any of them. I feel like I'm losing time by the day and totally paralyzed. And I think that's just like a really relatable feeling.

20:44A lot of my friends are graduating, my entire class with me. And I think that's a pretty shared sentiment for everybody. Yeah, you're so right. It is a generational thing and it's an age thing where you're in that space where it's almost like up until 22, most of your life is mapped out for you. You know you go from seventh grade to eighth grade, you go to college, you get a degree and then all of a sudden now you actually have to make choices that don't have a timeline. I think you're so right about that. And in school, success is the heuristics are so clearly defined for you. Like the metrics of success are there. You have a rubric. You want to get to 100, you know, getting an A plus is good and everybody wants to get there. Life is so much more complex. So wonderful. You don't know what your success is. And success looks so different for so many different people. And there are a lot of people who are really wealthy and really unhappy. And there are a lot of people who in that position would feel super unsuccessful. And there are others who would feel extremely successful. And so it is so personal. And so doing the self work to discover what success is is a totally new thing once you leave school.

21:47You're spot on the grading system is already decided when you're at school. And as soon as you leave, there is no grading system. Because now it's all up to you. Who's your athletic sponsor when you compete? Anter. Anter, okay, yeah, because I was just thinking what you just said, hard work over praised. Direction. Direction underrated. Right, that's world class. I love that. That's an ad right there. Thank you. That's brilliant. And it's so true. It's so true because we get momentum from direction, not hard work. Yes. Momentum comes because you know the direction you're moving in and then it snowballs. Exactly. Yes. You can push a rock up a hill as hard as you want. And you won't gather momentum because the direction's wrong. But maybe you can imagine him happy. Yes. Sisypha's reference. There you go. Yeah. Talk to me about how you look for direction at your age. With the success you've had, with the multiple opportunities. Now you're in a position where opportunities are flying towards you.

22:47You can go anywhere, do anything, be on any red carpet, interviewed anywhere. How do you choose? How do you find your direction when you have unlimited opportunities, unlimited ideas. But at the same time, you're this thoughtful, pensive, introspective human. A lot of people don't know this, but I'm very introverted. And so the older I've gotten, the more I've realized that it's actually really important for me to have a little bit of personal space and time. Because there's kind of two categories here. One is my career, which is already somewhat developed. And so when I'm doing that, a lot of it's outward facing, which means I've already kind of like done the work to get here. And now it's like I am creating something out of it. Whereas the other thing is me being a 22 year old and I need to build. So what's important is I cannot stagnate in the energy kind of like dissipation phase. Because otherwise I feel like I'm just going to freeze at the age that I became successful. And that's just going to stagnate forever. Whereas I also need to realize that I'm this like independent entity

23:48who is 22, which means I need to take the time to learn. I need to take the time to fail. And I need to have these experiences that maybe you don't, you can't really justify with like opportunity cost. But like it's important to travel. It's important to try a new hobby. It's important to make a new friend. It's important to say yes to something that you didn't think you would have fun doing. I really do try to value that. So as far as like knowing what's important within work, that's very easy for me to decide. I have very clear boundaries. I only do things that I feel align with me, my values. What's great about my brand is that it's actually just my values and what I like to do and who I am. So there's no kind of like asymmetry there. But it's like I care about women in sports. I care about encouraging young people to do balanced sports and academics as well. I care about uplifting free skiing globally. And I care about cultural exchange. So like those are generally things that thematically will speak to me. I also think that I care a lot about masculine feminine balance.

24:49And I care about artistry. I care about creativity. So that's kind of where the fashion side comes in. And generally that's how I will choose events. Those values guide me. And I feel they have not really led me astray. Within the personal side, it's so nebulous. That's why I don't know. Like when you're asking me what advice would I give? Pretty much all I can say is like, yeah, I'm also in the cloud. I have no idea what I'm doing. My only thing is like if you flip coin 100 times, it'll land on heads more than if you flip it five times just by virtue of how many times you flip the coin. And so the idea being just expose myself to as many things as possible and hopefully like trust the model on its training data. Not to be like super silicon valley on this. Every experience you have is just informing you. And like it's like training your gut feeling. And I really do believe in that. I love how your life really mirrors a belief that I have, which is that life is more about collecting and connecting things

25:50than it is about doing or being anything. I love that. And I feel like when I hear you speak, you're collecting things from Silicon Valley, you're collecting things from fashion, you've collected experiences from academia, you've collected things from sport, and then you've just connected all of these things. And that's who you are. Is your collection and connection of all these ideas, philosophies, beliefs, interests, values, as opposed to like, oh, I'm an athlete or I may, you know, whatever this box is. I just, I love that your generation has you to look up to to go, oh, that's what I have to do. I can actually be all these different things at the same time. And I don't have to choose. And I don't have to have the tension of fighting between them. Yeah. You talk about your thoughts creating your reality. When I first saw one of your clips that really resonated with me, and I was like, who is this person? A 22 talking about the power of thought. Talked to me about how that became a practice and developing that mindset became powerful for you. At such a young age and how it's been, what has allowed you to unlock everything that's come your way.

26:52Wow, you're really good. The way you talked about the pattern recognition is like really sitting with you. I feel like I'm going to marinate on that further in my own time. And you're going to have to do that and then tell me what you can do. Yeah, what was that? Well, I will preface this by saying I'm an only child. And I actually think that was pretty important because it meant that I, my mom was an immigrant. And so she talks about this all the time where she didn't go to high school in the US. So when I came home, you know, being bullied in high school, she didn't really know what to do because she didn't really have this like American high school situation. And that's totally new. She didn't go to undergrad in the US. And so when I was taking the SAT, she didn't really know what to do in that situation. And what's really amazing about my mom and I's relationship is that we're so honest with each other and we're so collaborative. And when one of us doesn't know, we don't pretend that we do. And there's this kind of like humble and it was like student mentality where it's like, I don't know, but I'll learn.

27:52And so I think I picked that up where I was like, okay, not everyone has all the answers. And I think as a young person, the sooner you learn that the better. Where like nobody really knows what they're doing. And the sooner you take your fate and agency of learning into your own hands, the better. And it's not about becoming an expert. It's about knowing that you have the power to learn. And that is your greatest superpower. There's a reason why kids learning languages at a young age is so different from adults learning the same language. Kids just learn so well. And so because I came to the understanding that learning was my superpower very early, I feel like I employed that with kind of like high agency over time. And that's where I was like, wait, I can just not like self-parent, but I did read like parenting manuals. You did at what age? It's like 12, 13. For yourself. Yeah. Just to see what was going on. Like I was just curious because my mom had mentioned, because obviously I'm her only child. So she was like, oh, I raised you by the book. Like when you were born, I read all the like nutrition and like feeding everything and I did everything to a T.

28:52And you turned out pretty well like health-wise, right? And she also has another saying where she said, up until 13, it's me as like the parent. Contributing genetics was like the big thing. But then beyond that, just like, you know, health, safety, general like values, all of that until you're 13. But after you're 13, so much of it is like the people who you surround yourself with and yourself learning. And so for me, I was like, wow, you know, I'm 12, 13. So she'll probably get on that, you know? Also, maybe I'll also read the parenting video. She said it was pretty good. So like I'll just take a look. They were like an easy read. What did you do? What did you do? What did you learn? Tell us. Tell us how to parent yourself. I was like, here's how to like parent your protein. Like when they're being, you know, combative and like, when to leave them to have space and when to initiate a conversation, when to let them fail, these kinds of things. How to have the puberty talk? I was reading that. I was super locked in. And then I feel like what was great about that is my mom and I's communication style that involved. Because I could sit down and be like, hey, I think we should discuss this thing about my upbringing.

29:57That's amazing. It's kind of like a formalized setting. And for that reason, it's just been like the most amazing teamwork and collaboration. And I admire her. I idolize who she's totally my hero. In a lot of ways, we are both the same person and different sides of the same coin. We are inextricably connected. And we're both really invested in me. And there's something so special about that just like unbreakable trust to have. And I totally understand that not everybody has that relationship with their family. And I think my truly my greatest blessing is that I do. I love hearing that because I think there's such a power in allowing a 13 year old to have the opportunity to even do that. So it's one thing that you even opened yourself up to that. Second of all, your mom was gained to actually collaborate with you. Are you just like what? Yeah, I mean, it's from China. She's like, we don't, this is not something we've ever done. But it's cool because it also makes you realize your parent is a person. Yeah. And like as a kid, you don't really think that you're like,

30:58oh, this is mom. It's like the entity is mom. But no, she's a person and she's a woman and she has friends and she has feelings and she's stressed because it's her first time raising a kid. And so the sooner you realize that she's a person with her own thoughts and needs and imperfections and flaws and also points that are so admirable and worthy of copying, the better. What are your thoughts now before you start skiing, before you're competing? Like what are the thoughts that you program into your mind? Contest mode? Oh my gosh. I'm extremely psychological. I want to know everything. I have a saying where I say I train like I've never won and I compete like I've never lost. Save that again. That is so good. I train like I've never won and I compete like I've never lost. And that's important because A, I find it's difficult to win but it's way harder to stay there. And for me, you know, now through two Olympic cycles and also so much happens between 18 and 22,

32:00like staying in peak form during that period of your life, specifically as a woman is very, very difficult. From my last Olympics to now, I went through all of college. Like I was a high school grad and now I'm a college grad and that's just two different people. So that's one. The second thing is it keeps you hungry and that's what allows you to perform over time. The third thing is in order to be a winner, you have to have this like insatiable, almost like obsessive, religious, just like all in mentality when you compete. But because it is so intense, you cannot sustain it always. Because that's what creates really dangerous egos. It's what creates the like hubris and overconfidence and complacency that undermines good training because you have to be very critical of your own training. For me, I see only my mistakes when I'm training. I can never do anything right. Like every single thing, I'm like, oh, you know, I'm two degrees off on that. Oh, I was like a second early. Oh, look at my upper body. I was like three degrees, you know, whatever.

33:01That's all I think. But when I'm competing, you need to make the switch. And I'm like, I am the best person who has ever stepped foot here. Nobody's even going to touch me. Everyone's competing for a second. Doesn't matter. That's it. But what's so important is to separate that. It, I would say it's like 95% the former and 5% the latter. And creating that really conscious distinction is what protects me from going absolutely insane. I'm also not that competitive in my daily life. I'm like a normal amount of competitive, right? But like, you can imagine like, oh, you're so competitive when you ski. Are you not like insufferable with lawn games or whatever, you know, like, no, I'm not. That would make me super annoying to be around. And I'm not. It's only when I compete. And I'm like, okay, all there you go. Go time. How did you discover that balance? What you just spoke about feels like something an athlete figures out after 25 years of competing. But they realize they've carried this aggressive competitive mentality and critical mentality far too much into every area of their life where their family feels it,

34:02their partner feels if they're married or dating or whatever. Whereas you've realized this early in your career, how did you discover that you need to train like you've never won and compete like you've never lost? Like, where, how did you discover that? Well, for one, my mom just works. So like the way she instilled work ethic in me is just unparalleled. So I will never be afraid to work harder than other people if I know my direction is correct. And so much of the direction is then cerebral. Maybe because I've gone to school, I have a different perspective on psychology or I'm seeing the physics of a trick in a different way. So I think A, the underpinning is very academic. And I think that's definitely a differentiating factor for me. I agree. B, I think then applying the work ethic layer on top of that totally supercharges the whole thing. That's like the direction, you know, momentum thing we were talking about. And then C, I think I just am so introspective. I just, man, I just sit and think. Like, I just think about my brain all the time.

35:04And I think about who I am and the direction I'm moving in, and I'm self-assessing, and I'm, you know, error correcting, and I'm criticizing all the time. I am my own greatest project. There is no project in my life that I will ever build that is as time consuming as living in my body every single day. And so why am I not treating, why am I not like the founder of my own self, right? Like creating that obsessive mentality around it. You know, the only way other people can be you is if they are really good at doing themself. And so for me, I just have to be the very best version of myself. So I picked all of the best qualities or things that I think make me unique, and then just put them together in this like unique pattern matching type style. I believe you. And at the same time, I feel you hold yourself gracefully too. Like talk to me about that. Is it you are hypercritical, you are error correcting, you are fixing yourself, but I don't feel like it sounds like you beat yourself up. You know what I mean? Like and talk to me about that because I think that

36:06athletes, but even all of us, like non-athletes, I think we don't know the balance. I think a lot of people who are listening and watching right now struggle between trying to push themselves to be better and then pushing themselves so hard they break. Yeah. Talk to me about how you hold those two things together in order to incrementally improve and become better every day. And at the same time, not burn yourself out or beat yourself up. You are not your craft. And I think that distinction is so important because I can beat my craft to death and I will never die. And so the point that I'm trying to make there is like real resilience is being able to take constructive criticism without the emotions. And so it's the sense of like how quickly can I actually implement usable material instead of spending that energy to metabolize something that made my ego bruise? We'll laugh at this. I have a practice that I do with my friends called the CCC. It's called the constructive criticism circle. And I think the greatest act of love that you can give anybody is to give them constructive criticism. If you love them and you know them well enough

37:07to give meaningful advice because anybody in the world can be like, Jay, I love your jacket. Like I love your so smart. You're so interesting. That's not that difficult, right? Anybody can say that. What's more difficult is for me to know you well enough to know what your goals are, what your shortcomings are, and to then help guide you and kind of like match those points in a way that you yourself didn't even see or know or are not ready to hear. Like that is so much more meaningful and so much more powerful. It is like the deepest act of service I could possibly imagine. And so like you can imagine this was probably like not the most popular idea when I was like, Hey guys, it's like Friday night. Let's all sit in a circle and like criticize each other. What? This sounds like a terrible idea. And I was like, no, no. Like obviously the goal is not to insult another person. It's just like, hey, I know your goal is music. You're really passionate about this. You're really interested in it. But you will keep saying you're going to like put stuff out on TikTok.

38:08You're going to do like whatever to like reach people. But you're not very consistent with it. And you're not holding yourself to that standard. I know that you could, you know, something like that. Or hey, the other week when you said this thing to this other person, it wasn't even to me, I think the other person kind of like bristle a little. And you maybe you could have had a nicer tone of voice. You're like, oh, I didn't even know. There's so many things big and small that you genuinely don't even know. And that just cuts the work. It cuts the work if people can just tell you. And you can be like, wow, okay, I'm just going to change it. And it's not about you. It's not like, oh, my ego's going to be hard. What I'm talking about like correcting a trick. I'm not like, oh, no, my double cork is bad. I'm stupid. Right? I'm like, oh, no, my double cork is bad. It's really bad. Like that's it. That's the end of the sentence. There's no more extrapolation. There's no more like, and this is what it says about me as a human. It's like, I'm rushing the trick. This is what I'm doing wrong. I'm not committing at this point. I'm not truly believing. Maybe like, it's not penetrating my subconscious layer. Whatever. That is not who I am. And so again, this is another thing that I see in like really successful people

39:11or athletes where it's like really hard to distinguish those two things. So it's like, if your career is going really well, you feel like you're really great. If your career is not going well, you feel like a failure. And for me, those are pretty separate things. Like, I am me and my career is me. And also, that means when people say, oh, I mean, you're so good at skiing. I don't translate that to like, oh, I mean, you are so good. And so I don't really feel like I am all that, even if I think that my skiing is all that. I love that answer. And what's going to blow your mind is, I didn't have a cool name like CCC for it. But I made my friends do exactly the same thing a few years back. But you know, you didn't hear me. Here is my version. So what I said to them was, we've got to say to everyone in the room, this is my closest group of friends. Yeah, of course, you can only do it. Yeah, totally. So it's my closest group of friends from London that I grew up with. I said, we have to say to each other's face, the thing we all say behind each other's back. So if me and you are together and we're talking about our other friend, we'd be like, oh, he's really ambitious, but you know, we know he's not putting in enough work.

40:11Yeah. We actually have to say that to him right now. Wow. And so that was what I made me and my friends do on a Friday night. Wow. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And I could see who was scared by it, who was nervous about it, who really owned it, who opened up and had the humility and put their ego aside on both ends because you also have to have vulnerability to tell someone the truth. And you've got to be humble enough to take it yourself. And then you start seeing the exchange make sense when everyone has permission. It was, so it's, when you started to say that I was like, I need to steal your name, it's better, but I didn't have that for it. That is unbelievable. But I just felt it. I was like, we actually can't go to the next level in our relationship if we don't do this. Right. We all think we're close. We all pretend like we're close. But this is the test of actually intimacy, vulnerability, and friendship after 20 years that I've been friends with some of these guys. So I'm totally aligned with it. That is incredible. I mean, you came up with it. But I've just never like, that's insane. I'm like, wow. But I agree with you. It's the only way of showing group care and depth in a relationship.

41:13I love the way you framed it too. Because also then there's like a group aspect to it. I think it's harder if it's like one person, like put them on the spot. And then there's like kind of responsibility there. This is just like truly fostering like group connections and growth. That's so special. It's a much more sensitive way of doing that. I'm gonna steal it. Yours is, yours is better named. It's small. I like to do it. I want to ask you, you've said before, evidence over affirmation. Explain that to me. I'm very realist. And I think I definitely get that from my mom. But it was the sense of like, you want to shoot for the moon? Okay, how do you get there? Who's going to build the rocket ship? How are you going to design it? Who's going to power it? Like, how are you going to get there? Right? And so the sense of like, I can't convince myself that I'm going to do a back flip. You have to really know how to do it. Even if it's just conceptually, because what's important is like, technically every time I learn a new trick, I'm doing something that I've never done before. So there is that kind of like, final leap. But most of the work, the basis, the bulk of it,

42:13needs to be ready so that you have that 5%. It's a lot of people talk about like, you make your own luck. And I think it's in the same vein. Where like, you can only succeed in so far as you are prepared. And you're kind of setting your own ceiling there with the base that you have accumulated. And so yeah, I would say I ask 5%, the last 5%, but I feel good in the 95. In skiing, because it's just so visceral and literal, where it's like, the difference between success and failure is like quite literally broken bones and like top of the podium, right? And so it is so clearly defined. And the difference in that is sometimes just this sense of like subconscious buy-in. Do I feel like I had the reps? Do I genuinely believe to my core? And so the top layer, I think, is the conscious thing. Anybody can convince themselves like, okay, I'm going to jump. That's easy. But like the subconscious thing of like buying in all the way down to actually commit the action. That is the true test of trust. And you can only build trust over repetition and over practice and true preparation.

43:15Yeah, you're saying that you can almost feel it. Yeah. That subconscious in your body, your mind, your heart, your soul. Yeah. Whether you've actually bought into it, rather than just repeating something that may make you feel better in the moment before you go out there. But everything about your body knows it's false and it's rejecting that idea. Exactly. And because it's so unnatural already and because it all happens so fast, like in skiing, the takeoff is like 0.1 seconds. But the angle of your body and the torque and the timing determines everything. And so if your timing is slightly off because you're nervous and you rush a trick, you can do the same thing, but you just rush it a little because literally just because you're nervous and it's game over. And so of course you're going to be nervous, but it's like controlling the degree. And so that's what I'm talking about with the buy-in. It literally happens so quickly that it's too fast for you to make the decision consciously. At the end of the day, the results will tell you what you really believe. This episode is brought to you by Mazda. Some of life's best moments happen

44:17because nothing went wrong. The drive home, the conversation that continues, the plans that stay exactly as planned. That's the feeling of safety. Every Mazda is designed with proactive safety features that help keep you more aware, more connected, and more engaged with your drive. So you can feel confident on the road. That's why Mazda has been named Consumer Reports safest new car brand. And as of July, 2026, Dave won more 2026, I.I.H.S. top safety pick plus awards than any other car brand. Visit www.iihs.org to learn more. A lot can happen when an accident doesn't. Visit Mazda USA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. Talk to me a bit more about the technicalities of free skiing because I feel I've been fortunate enough to sit down with Novak and talk about tennis and talk to Lewis Hamilton and Charles Leclerc about F1 and hearing about how much drivers lose weight and how much their weight impacts the movement of the car

45:17and how fast they can move. I've never interviewed someone who's a free skater before. Talk to me about that. As you started talking about the angle and the mechanics, I'm starting to think, wow, the room for error is tiny. Tiny. And like you just said, if you go too early or too late, talk to me a bit more about that of something as a complete novice to this world I'd be unaware of so that we can really appreciate what's happening out there because I think we watch you and I've watched tapes of you and I'm like, how does she just do that? It's incredible. But you almost undervalue because we're uneducated, the physics behind it and the amount of analytics behind pulling something like that off. Totally. Couple of things. One, the biggest saying you will hear in free skiing is patient on the takeoff. And it's like the most frustrating thing to hear because it's so obvious and it's like a just do it sort of thing. But the reason why it's so frustrating is that because it's not conscious and it happens so quickly, a lot of it is like you're at the top and you're like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it and have the very last thing and it's like,

46:18oh no, I bailed. Like I didn't do it. And there is this almost sense of betrayal that happens in that moment because you're like, I swear, like why is my body betraying me? And so so much of it is identifying the kinds of fear that you have. For me, I can like logic my way into things because I can understand what different kinds of fear feel like in my body. And so discerning that often is the difference between injury and success. As far as mechanics go, this is kind of interesting because if you think about gymnastics, the body type is very different than my body type. And so if you think about like the physics of rotation, when you're moving that quickly and your center of gravity is much longer and higher and your limbs are a lot more dispersed, it means that the timing is even more precise and it's even harder to kind of grasp. It's just like there's so much of you in the air. On top of that, it's an outdoor sport. So like wind impacts you more and like, weather and like just all of these little things. And so for me, I felt like because I'm so much taller

47:22than most of my competitors, I had to kind of be so hyper aware of these factors that were initially working against me. But then if you think about physics and you think about like a whip, the longer the whip is, the more force is generated at the very tip. So if I can get the timing right, technically I can generate more force. It's just harder to do it. So I just have to be so precise and I was very aware about that from the beginning. And how are you keeping time? Is it something you're counting in your mind? Is it a feeling in your body? Like, where's time? Because you can't see anything. I visualize a lot. And when I visualize, I visualize in four angles, or like dimensions. I will do follow cam. I will do deck angle. I will do my POV and then top angle. Then I will do fast motion and slow motion. And get this. I will do all black proprioception. So it's like, I will visualize what the G forces feel on my body, pulling apart at certain points in the air. And that will help with my timing and grounding.

48:22Because the first time you do a trick, you can't see anything just visually. So you really have to trust. That's another thing. You have to trust. When you can't see anything, you're totally blind. You have to trust in this. Your body's going to do something, but it hasn't even done it before also. So like, how can you trust that? So there's something kind of counterintuitive about that. And so the faster you can reconcile that, that's what makes a trick safe. So I do so much visualization. I just think. And that visualization is based on you watching footage of yourself. Watching footage of myself. To know what the different angles and cans look like those four that you experience. Yes. And what's interesting also is, sometimes I'm the first woman to ever do a trick. And so that adds complexity also. Because then I'm watching videos of men. And of course, there's going to be differences in those mechanics too. And so I have to be noticing what points I can kind of take in what I have to innovate almost on my own, just given my own, you know, phenotypes there. So there's kind of like intricacy there. I would say also we do have like foam pits,

49:22we have airbags. So like that helps a lot. But really doing something on snow for the first time, there's something, I mean, yeah, like when is the last time you felt like genuine fear? And I think a lot of people would struggle to think of the last time. But in skiing it's like every day, literally every day. I'm so glad to ask that question. And thank you for taking us into your mind. I want to take you back to the moment you won your gold medal at the Milan Olympics. And that was such an incredible moment. Walk me through the euphoria felt. You're just talking about the fear you feel, the trust you have to have, the looking at it from four angles, the surrender in that moment, talk to me about how that felt. I think it's really important to contextualize that moment actually. So in free skiing, there are three disciplines, a half-pipe self-silent bigger. I'm the only woman who competes in all three. What's particular about that is no other woman who competes in half-pipe at the Olympics competed in any other event. So it's like one event versus three events. And if each event is a week long, you're skiing every day,

50:23the accumulated fatigue, the just emotional adrenaline, you're literally having the highest highs and the lowest lows of your life every day for two weeks. And then sometimes it's at night, sometimes it's in the morning. You're in, it'll wait like everything is kind of just different in foreign and you're managing so much load. The last part is the Olympics actually scheduled my trainings overlapping because they thought that it wasn't possible essentially to do all three events. And so I tried to petition it, obviously it didn't work. So since I made finals and actually ended up meddling in Big Air, which is the event before, I actually missed out on a training in half-pipe. There's only three. And then very lastly, it supposedly never snows in this meddling. But of course, if you wanted to snow, it's scheduled the Olympics, right? So it was scheduled for night originally and so you can imagine your adrenaline super high all day. You're like, okay, this is like the culmination I'm gathering, all of my strength, all of my energy. I've competed five times already, qualities and finals for the other two events and the qualifiers. Last minute, like an hour before training starts for the contest, they say, okay,

51:26we're canceling it. Like it's moving to another day. And what's even crazier is they said, if we can't do it, we're just going to take qualify results. And I had fallen in qualifiers. I got fifth. I was calling in fifth place. I've never done that before. I almost always qualify in the top one or two. And so I was just losing my mic. Because I was already so tired that I was just make finals, just make finals, like land something and make finals. And I did, but I was in fifth. And so I was just, you can imagine crashing out all night. And then the next morning, like thank goodness it went ahead. So I'm going into this contest very frazzled. Like I am not in peak form. I am just really holding on by a thread. And this has never happened before in other contests. But for some reason at the Olympics, I fell on my first run in every single contest. I don't know what the reason was. I genuinely have this theory that like, I need to like wake up. And there's something so otherworldly and surreal about being at the Olympics that I needed something so harsh that my body to be like, you're actually here. Like wake up, lock in to be like, okay, I'm here.

52:28And like jolt me into reality. I have no idea what that situation was. That's what I've kind of decided was the case. So needless to say, I fall on my first run. And now I'm in last. And this is supposed to be like my, you know, best event. I haven't lost a final in this event in seven years. So there's four events. There's men's and women's skin snowboard. So four events total. The favorites for the other three. None of them won. And so of course, I'm going into the last event. I'm like, okay, great. This is not boating well for me. And so she was just so much doubt. And just even if I was so prepared, I've never felt dealt like that before. And I just remember at the top being like, please, please, like just get the feeling, get the feeling. Because I talked about like having that switch. And I just wasn't getting it. I was like, I don't know where I am. Like where she is. Like the competitor. Like I don't know where she went. Like it's maybe I'm too tired. Maybe like something's going on. I'm like burnt out from five other events. I don't know. I like couldn't find her. And before my first run, I actually knew I was going to fall. Like I knew I was not going to land it. Because I was just not in my competitive headspace.

53:30And I remember going up to the front. I was like, okay, there it is. Like there's a moment. Hold on to it. Hold on to it. Like I found it. I found it. I get to the front. And they're like commercial break. Eight minutes. Oh my god. And I'm just like, are you kidding me? So there's video of me like fake punching a wall. I'm like running alone, like staring out of corner. Just doing absurd things. So try and just get myself into this like headspace. And it's very narrow and it's fleeting. And I was there. And now I'm not. And I'm just losing it. And then it just clicks. And I'm like, hold it for 30 seconds. And I do. And as soon as I land, I'm like, okay, I want. You knew. I knew it. And then I went back up and did a better run. And then got the two highest scores of the contest and ended up winning. But what was really important, I think about that contest, is it was not about my skill. It was totally me versus me. It was like, I could have just not landed a run. And it would have been me betraying myself. And so much of it came down to trust and willfulness. Of just like how consciously can you enter flow state, which is totally counterintuitive.

54:31And you just can't do that. And so this is like the next best thing. And all I can say is extremely difficult. And when I fell to the ground and started crying, it was because I was totally spent. It was just like nothing I've ever done before. Yeah, it was really difficult. That is unbelievable. Thank you for walking us through play by play. Because you just don't get that insight. I mean, then it's a documentary on this. I hope you're working on it. You need to be able to see that, just that kind of stop start, stop start, stop start, stop start, that what it does to an athlete's mind. Even when you're so clear, even when you're so focused and driven and trained and prepared, there's so much to it. Moments later from winning your whole day changes. Yes. You get some big news. I remember watching that press conference. We see you breaking the tears. Talk to me about that moment. And experiencing both that incredible high after so much sacrifice, training, prep, all the ups and downs you just walk through. And then experiencing such a low in pretty much in the next same day.

55:33This is like my first time really speaking about this publicly since. And it's just been so hard for me to metabolize after all this time. Because like you said, it's the highest high and the lowest low separated by a matter of minutes. My grandma had been sick for a long time. And we knew that there was a chance that it was our last time saying goodbye to her when I left for the Olympics. And so I said all the things that I wanted to say to her. I told her I would be brave for her and made her a bunch of promises essentially. But my mom and I had actually spoken about it. And we'd agreed that if something had happened to my grandma during the Olympics, I didn't want to know during the contest. Because it has happened and morning prematurely and just like ruining this experience that I've trained for four years, like it's not going to help. I just cannot believe that my mom knew the whole time during my other events and did not break a sweat or a tear or anything. And she was so strong in the entire time that is unbelievable to me. Like it's her mother.

56:34That has just absurd. Like I genuinely cannot wrap my head around that. I actually get her emails. And so I checked my phone right after I had won. We hadn't done the podium ceremony yet. And so I saw an email from the funeral home. And I just knew. And it was just like my ground was like fracking out from underneath me. And it's like you think your reality is what it is until something just comes along and makes you feel like you were living in like a little fish bowl. I thought the Olympics was the most important single event that I could possibly imagine. I couldn't think of something that would be more gripping and compelling than that. And all of a sudden I was like this doesn't matter. And all of a sudden the thing that I held to be like the epitome of all of life just like fell away underneath me. And so that was very disorienting and like extremely earth shattering. Also I had to do the press conference. I like couldn't skip this press conference. And so I like took a moment to mourn with my mom. And then we just went to this press conference. And so I actually think that those like viral interviews where I have the gold bow in my hair.

57:37Because that was I had that in my pocket. I was like a lucky thing. And like I was like oh, in case I win. I'm going to put it in my hair to like represent femininity on the world stage. And this you know like male dominated sport. All of those gold bow interviews I actually knew already. And so when I'm smiling and talking about neuroplasticity. And when I'm smiling and talking about like oh, I'm going to continue competing like this is what I love to do. That was all so compartmentalized. And then at the very end I wanted to like honor her and say hey, by the way, one of the most important people in my life just passed away. I promised to try to be super brave. I wanted to uphold the promises that I made to her. And it like this is my moment of closure. I broke down during that. But like I had to just turn something off in my brain to get through that press conference. And then you can imagine afterwards it was just devastating. And then it was just horrible. Like there were people online who were like why is she at you know this event when she's like skipping her grandma's funeral like horrible horrible things where I was like I will take just

58:39about any kind of hate. But like you are not going to put my grandmother's name in this situation. That is just like a line out across. So I did keep or for you're a little bit on that. But yeah, I planned my grandma's funeral. I found the choir for it. I selected the Bible versus for it. I picked the flowers. I did the ceremony. I did all the invites. It's my mom's mom. It's my grandma. It was really difficult. But I could not ask my mom to do that. And so I think my act of service to my family and like to the honor to like honor my grandma was in service of that. And so yeah, I had to do a bunch of things after the Olympics for like a week or two. But immediately after moving back to the funeral, I had planned everything and we'd metabolized it. And that was just so so challenging for the days after the Olympics. I would say that you showing both those sides of yourself when you're answering the questions about neuroplasticity in your mindset are you as your superhuman self. And then you being honest about the loss of one of the most important women in your life

59:41was the most human thing you could have done. And to me seeing those both on center stage as a gold Olympic winner, to me there's nothing more powerful that could set a better standard for young athletes and young people all over the world. To be superhuman and human in the same breath. That's my grandma just channeling her. Going to end on a final five. These questions I've answered in one sentence and maximum. Hit me. So Eileen Goody's your final five. Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever had to receive? It will never be embarrassing to try. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever had to receive? Waking up at four in the morning makes you more productive. Question number three, your advice for young women today? Define your own category. Meaning for women there's a lot of boxes that feel more rigid as far as career, what being a mother means, what being a girl. It can feel very rigid. And so I think it's like define your own categories.

1:00:43You can be end of one. Question four, when you have a crush out or a bad day, what is Eileen Goody? Cry. Oh my god, I cry. I cry so much and I think it's great. I think it's the most efficient way that you can release emotion and return to a logical state. The sooner you can get the irrational out, the better. Also, I run a lot. So both of those sometimes at the same time. Running and crying while. When it's really bad. Yeah. Fifth and final question, we asked every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? Maybe some kind of like independent study program early. Like at age seven or eight, you have to like pick a project and stick with it for a year. And it's not in like a career, you know, it's not like every seven-year-old needs an internship. But some kind of like self-guided high agency exploration that values curiosity. Eileen Goody. I know you're extremely busy. I'm so grateful for your time, your presence of energy. I hope this is a start of a great friendship and I wish you all the best and rooting for you

1:01:44in your corner and here whenever you need. So congrats on everything. Thank you so much. Thank you. I really, really am so grateful for our conversation today. I feel like I learned so much. I'm so excited. I feel invigorated. Amazing. Thank you.