ELIGIBILITY WHIPLASH: UNC Faces Unfair Uncertainty with Cameron Fens; What's the HUMAN TOLL?

0:00This is the Lockdown Podcast Network celebrating 10 years of your team every day. This message is brought to you by Applecard. Shave diced by the beach, a trip to the state fair, and a throwback flick at the local drive-in, there's more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. There's also opportunities to earn 2% daily cashback when you use your Applecard with Apple Pay. Apply for Applecard now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Create a credit approval, Applecard is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at Applecard.com. Hi, this is Isaac Shade, host of Lockdown College basketball and Lockdown Tar Heels. Today's episode is brought to you by ADT. Imagine you're watching the game at a buddy's house when you get a call that someone tried to break into yours. In a second, everything can change. That's why there's ADT. ADT's security systems help keep your home safe 24-7 with the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. The ADT Plus app keeps you in control the whole time. Don't leave your home wide open during an emergency.

1:01When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP. All this eligibility whiplash has me needing to go to a chiropractor. But how do you handle it if your Cameron Fens? Oh boy. This is Tyler Hancebro. You're listening to Lockdown Tar Heels. You are locked on Tar Heels. You're daily podcast on the UNC Tar Heels. Part of the Lockdown Podcast Network, your team every day. Hey there, what's up? Welcome into the Lockdown Tar Heels Podcast. I'm your host, Isaac Shade. It's great to be together this episode is brought to you by Fandool. College football Saturdays are already packed with reasons to get excited in this season. Fandool is giving fans even more ways to get in on every matchup. Join the action right now at Fandool.com. Me on the show today is my good friend and your buddy that's with us all the time. Coach Bill Robinson, the head coach of the Milligan University Buffaloes, and a two-decade

2:03veteran of Carolina Basketball School, which is Carolina basketball camp in the summer. In fact, the man's written a book all about it. You can check it out. Carolina Basketball School, history stories and drills. Get your copy at Amazon or directly from Coach Rob. He'll even sign it for you if you're very kind and speak to him like a gentleman. No, I don't know. That can be mean to him. He'll probably still do it. Coach, great to be together here. Here's where Coach and I are headed today. There is so much eligibility whiplash. That's what I'm calling it, Coach, with Cameron Fens and others. You're in, you're out. Who knows what's going on. We got Seth Trimble news right before we started recording. We've talked about the roster told that it takes, but we haven't looked at the human element. What does this mean for Cameron Fens? We'll talk about that. I mean for his teammates, we'll look at that. What does it mean for a coach? So coach, we can get directly his thoughts and opinions on it. So coach, I want to start with the player himself.

3:04We'll talk Cameron Fens. I want to bring some Seth Trimble into it. With all of the conversations we have, like transactional for UNC roster for Cameron Fens coach, this is his life. I know that we can't tell the people what he is specifically feeling, but we can tell you what he's been asked to navigate and coach, what is that toll on a young man? It's funny you use the word transactional because I do teach a class on coaching for character and the transformational coach versus the transactional coach. And I remember being on a road trip as a freshman and we were going up to New England for a tournament. I didn't have a dime in my pocket, but I knew my coach was going to take care of me. I knew I was going to eat. I know I was going to have a place to stay because my coach is going to take care of me. That was the more transformational part of the whole process. I can't imagine a kid now saying, do they want me? Do they not want me? I know it's the NACA, but do they care about me? Do they not care about me?

4:05Where do I fit with this whole thing? It's not like he's been there before. He just got to town and now all of a sudden he can't. I can't imagine what is going through that kid's mind and the parent's mind because you send your kid off to college to be taken care of by your coach. Now it's business. It's not even personal anymore. It's not about the academics. It's just pure business. The guys are getting treated more like foms and pieces on a chest board than they are as people. That's not the way this was intended to be. No, that's a good, so true. Never intended to be this way. That's the thing. I love that you bring in the families too. Which I mentioned Seth Trimble. There was obviously graduated, not intending to be back, although he wisely entered the transfer portal. He ultimately decided to commit to Louisville was going to be eligible with the Colorado case, then was not because of that. And literally right before we start recording news, Seth Trimble has successfully been added

5:09to the Wells versus NCAA lawsuit in Kentucky and is now eligible to play for Louisville. It's just like, what is the toll on Seth? What is the toll on his family? It's like, we're a couple weeks into the semester at this point. It's just, how do you keep up with it? Yeah. One of my favorite Dean Smith stories was with James Worthy when he was recruiting James Worthy. He sat down with mom and dad and said, hey, we don't want you for four years. We're not here to talk about basketball necessarily. But if you come to Carolina, we're going to take care of you for life. We're going to make sure you get your degree. We're going to make sure we take care of you. And obviously, James had a wonderful career and he's a great business guy now. But it was more about just the personal aspect and we're going to treat you like family. You are family. You come here, we are family. And we're going to treat you like family. And that's, again, it's just, you're a piece of meat right now. It's just part of the equation and it just doesn't seem fair to anybody.

6:12So now that Sess in, if if Cam doesn't get in, you know, how does this make, again, fairness through this whole process too? How do you explain to a parent that, yes, Sess is going to be eligible for them, but you can't play for us. It just seems absurd at this point. It just seems like there's no real, again, rules to the game. And you can't win a game if you don't know what the rules are. Yes, that's so well said. It's like, it seems right now like it's, did you get in the right lawsuit or not? Because then you might be eligible if you didn't, you might not. And I think the thing for me with the humanity side of this coach is, again, the humanity side has gotten completely lost. And I know that different people feel different ways about whether this class of 2022 should be eligible or not, whether they should get, you know, an opportunity to play. But regardless of how you feel about it, coach, I feel like everyone should be able to agree that the way this has played out is unfair to them.

7:14And they just, they just deserve answers. Exactly. And if you're, can you work out today? Do you go to the weight room? Do you get shots in today? Is it, you know, it could be tomorrow and then all of a sudden you're back in practice. You've got to be ready, but yet you may not get a year at all. So I can't, again, you get up in the morning and looking for some motivation and you just know direction. And I just can't imagine putting a college age kid in that scenario where you really just don't, don't know what tomorrow brings. It's just absurd to me. And if that like, at what point do you say, you know what? This is, this was a dream of mine. It came from Zon record is saying that. But at what point does he say it like, it's, it's just not worth it. I don't care. I've already graduated from South Dakota. I don't need this while it would be great. I'm just moving on. And obviously, again, we cannot speak for Cameron Fence. We cannot speak for what's going on in his brain. But at what point for you is it was like, yeah, it's just not worth it.

8:15It would have been great. But I don't know. I think it is a big enough dream to continue to fight it to the very end. Yeah. In fact, that he already has a degree, I think, gives him a little bit, same with Seth. He gives him a little bit different perspective because if things didn't work out, they still have a degree to go back on. They still have a test case opportunity. Obviously, I think, I think, Pam could take both could go overseas and play and get make good money and, and continue their career. But I love the fact that Cam wants to be a Carolina. I think he'll fight it to the very end. And it's just going to be interesting to see how it all plays out. I hope he does. Here's another thing for me, coach, is I think we're so worried about them hearing no. We want to keep fighting for it. The cruelest part for me of the eligibility limbo isn't hearing no. It's never being allowed to know whether the answer is yes or no. My wife often says clarity is kindness. And that's become a thing that's really helpful to me. And if I'm these guys, whether I'm Seth or Cam, it's like, I need a definitive final answer.

9:16If it's no, so be it. But I will, that will allow me to move on with my life at least. Yeah. Same thing with recruiting. And coach Williams has said that for you. Yes and no are great answers. Then we know where we stand. It's the waiting that just puts you, you just don't know where you stand. So we're in a very similar situation with that right now. We've got guys that we really, I mean, we got a kid that we just die for to get him right now. He's just that top recruit. And we're just, but it's one of those things where we need to know an answer pretty early so we can focus on whatever plan B might be. Yeah. Well, and that's exactly where we're going to get later in the show in segment three is the coaching side is how do you think about plan A, B, C and D? So I'm excited to hear your thoughts as a coach more on that angle of it. And so again, we empathize, we sympathize with Cameron fence and all these other players who are looking for answers. Again, had the NCAA just been more definitive and more proactive in what was going to happen. We might not even be in this mess. Now, it's not just Cameron fence.

10:17It is the rest of the team that is kind of being held hostage as well because they're all wondering what's my role going to be. We want to look at the teammate aspect of what I'm calling eligibility whiplash. We'll do that coming up in just a second. Right after I tell you about five hour energy, if you got a sweet tooth like me, you know how tough it is to find that perfect treat that doesn't have all that sugar. I need it. I'm 42 years old. I don't want the extra pounds. That's why cotton candy five hour energy shot brings that nostalgic flavor back in a whole new way. It's that classic cotton candy taste like I can see it being at the fair and that steel drum. Yes, but this time it's got that nice little capping boost and zero sugar quick easy way to take care of that and being simple and on the go for me. I'm traveling a little bit more now each Tuesday. I have to travel to Dallas and back and I sometimes I need that little pick me up and I love to low five hour energy bottle. It's so perfect. So bite size. It's perfect. So it's really become a go to for me when I need something sweet without going overboard

11:18on it. So I'm going to be sweetness with cotton candy five hour energy shots available online right now at five hour energy dot com or right on over at Amazon. Check it out today's episode is brought to you by the Dell XPS. I'm Wes Goldberg from Lockdown NBA Daily and locked on heat. So what does it feel like to have a better laptop like the Dell XPS powered by Intel Core with a premium design that's thin and light. It feels smooth with a responsive touch screen. It feels fast and precise and with long lasting battery life. It feels like non stop energy with a laptop that can keep up built for those who want better. The Dell XPS built for you. Coach, we're talking about the human toll right now of the eligibility whiplash and we looked in the first segment there at Cameron Fens specifically and what he might be experiencing. We talked about Seth Trimble as well with news that dropped on Wednesday. You know, we all know about all the stuff going on with LSU football right now with the NFL guys coming back in fact today Thursday.

12:20There is a court hearing in baton rouge about that and how it's all going to play out. And coach, I think another aspect of the humanity of this is we don't think too much about the teammate aspect of it. So for example, with LSU football, if these two guys are deemed eligible to play for LSU against Clemson this weekend, is Lane Kiffin giving the heave ho to two other players on that roster? What does that look like? Obviously, right now Cameron Fens is officially part of Carolina's roster. And so that doesn't like if he's made eligible, it doesn't mean that suddenly John Holbrooke has shown the door or something like that. So that's good news. Carolina specifically, but it's not just about roster spots coach. It's about playing time and role definition and things like that. And again, I want to save the coaching conversation for the next segment right now inside the psyche of other players who might have their role changed or not because of the Cameron Fens or not.

13:21How are what are they maybe processing right now? I think it's a culture thing as much as anything else where you really have to get in that locker room and get everybody on the same page nearly impossible today with NIL with everything else that's going on to get everybody kind of pointed in the same direction. But now you've got a situation where how does this play out in the locker room? Has this play out in the dorm or in the apartments where the guys are living and stuff like that? I just can't understand how hard this must be for those guys that are in the waiting. The LSU guys is probably worse than ever because those guys have been training all summer. They've been working and they're ready to and here it is when they play Saturday. And they don't even know whether they're going to think they might start. They might not play at all. How do you mentally prepare physically prepare? How are you going to feel if you physically prepare and go through all that stuff and then this guy comes in and takes your minutes and you don't even get a chance to play? Because he's an NFL guy. No, so how is that fair and how do I feel about the coach for making those decisions?

14:22Those are impossible situations to be able to get everybody to unify and play on the same page. Don't know how you can do that. I don't because in this portal era, it's like, if I could have gone somewhere else, I could have been somewhere else where I could have played. Right? And it's just, it's got to be infuriating. And thankfully in the college basketball realm, as we record this on Wednesday, the regular season tips off two months to the day from today. That's Monday, November 2nd. But like you said, with football, like it's here in Carolina, specific case, Reese Verhoff, who's a kicker that graduated last year was going to come back because of fifth year eligibility. He, because of the Colorado case getting back overturned. He didn't get to kick on Saturday against TCU. And so there, I mean, there's ramifications for Carolina as well. But coach back to the basketball side of it. Even though we're two months away, there are three preseason games that are coming. There are scrimmages. There's all sorts of other stuff.

15:22And these are the moments where as these players, even though games are two months away, there's a piece of mind at starting, you can start to tell. If I'm, say on Kaita, for example, if the roster is intact, I can start to get a sense of what my role is going to be. Am I, am I typically rolling with the first team or the second team? How, you know, you get an idea of where you stand in the hierarchy. But with the lack of knowledge of the Cameron Fens of it all, that's another way in which it's hard to know just where do I stand with this team? Yeah. We're three open gyms into our season. We obviously don't get to summer. I have a meeting today with one of my guys. He's already asking, well, what are my expectations? Where do you see me? We're three open gyms into the season. And it's already happening. So you know, if you've been here all summer, you've been working out all year and then all of a sudden this happens. It changes your mentality.

16:23Oh, he's coming. So now I've got to switch it. Oh, no, he's not eligible. Now I got to switch it again. And I can't imagine how the mentality of that young man, especially a freshman who's coming into a new situation in Newtown, new classes, new teammates, new coaching staff, new everything. And now all of a sudden, you just feel like you're getting pulled back and forth. I mean, we can be patient with you. No, no, we're going to need you. It's just, again, it's just, I keep using the word absurd. It just makes zero sense. And I don't understand how these kids mentally can get ready to play. And you can't blame them for struggling a little bit just beginning of the year, just not knowing what's going on. Like we go back last year and I know it's a different conversation, but it's similar and you'll understand this. Like with this specific thing, we're talking about this eligibility for the class of 22. Last year, it was for Carolina specifically, it was a case of getting an international player eligible with Luca Bocavats, who was not made eligible until the first day of the regular season. And obviously, I think there are other things we now know for why Luca, like the athleticism,

17:25just wasn't there and some other things. But I truly think that the fact that he had to sit there trying to figure it out all the way up until that day hurt him and hurt the team not knowing tonight is Luca Bocavats going to be playing for us or not. And like that's part of it too. Like if I'm Jiren Stevenson, am I starting at the three tonight or is Luca? I don't know. And that's where it comes into play as well. Just unfair. It's just unfair to what happened with Luca last year was just wrong. There's no other way to look at it. Just the way it all happened was just wrong. And it does. It makes coaching impossible. It makes knowing your roles impossible because you're constantly trying to figure out on a daily basis instead of being able to set a plan ahead of time. And coach, I love that because it's now an opportunity to say the players. Aren't the only ones trying to figure out that plan ahead of time. You and your coaching staff are doing the same and it's got to be an impossible task

18:26to figure it out because you want to sit down and put plans in place. We'll talk about the coaching headache that is all of this coming up in just a second. Right after I tell you about Fandall college football fans, time to put your knowledge to the test right now with college football pick them from Fandall. Each week, you can make 10 free against the spread picks, finish with one of that weeks top pick totals. And you can win a share of up to $500,000 in bonus bets. There's no entry fee. There's no way you're required. You just make your picks required based on the college football knowledge you have. And then you see how you stack up against everybody else. Great news is that the competition doesn't stop there. Make your picks before kick off, follow the live leaderboard throughout Saturday and see if you can outpick names like Will Compton, Josh Payt and others. And if you beat any of them, you're going to unlock a profit boost to use on Fandall. You can go look at all sorts of lines right now. For example, they've already got national championship odds for basketball. Carolina, it's not not great. But maybe you feel great about the Tar Heels and where they're at.

19:28You can go get some great odds on Fandall. So download the app, play college football, pick them for free. Only on Fandall is at fandall.com today to go ahead and get started. This episode is also brought to you by indeed. When workplace chaos hits and you need the right hire, indeed, sponsor jobs helps connect employers with candidates who match specific needs like skills, certifications and location. So there's less time spent searching and more time spent finding the right fit. People are finding quality higher right now on indeed. In the minute that I'm talking to you, companies just like yours are making 27 hires on indeed according to their worldwide data, whether that's deadlines piling up too much on one person's plate or whatever it is. So I getting in front of the qualified candidates matters. So spend less time searching, more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your needed boxes, less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the cast, that's a job for indeed sponsor jobs. And listeners of our show are going to get a $75 sponsor job credit to help your job get that premium status.

20:29It deserves it indeed.com slash podcast head there right now. Support our show by saying you heard about indeed on locked on tar heels. Indeed.com slash podcast terms and conditions apply need to hire. That's a job or indeed sponsor jobs. Let's look at the coaching ramifications of the eligibility whiplash that we're talking about. Obviously we're talking about the players and how they reckon with it and they're at the whims of this as well. But coach, I know because of like the proactive person you are. And I don't know that all coaches are this way, but you and your staff are making plans. You're trying to figure out rotations, even three open gyms into it. How does this make your job all the more infinitely impossible? Yeah, the older I got as a coach, the more I realized that there's no way we can make a plan ahead of time. So we would try to anticipate we've had that conversation last week. You know, where where the issue is going to arise because it never works out the way you think we've had players go in eligible during the season or we've had guys with injuries last year we lost our top leader with a six concussion

21:31before the season never started. So you're constantly waiting for something to drop so you can adjust. And the coaching perspective, it's hard to obviously sit situation like this is brand new to have somebody and then go in eligible before you even played one game. But you're constantly thinking and going through and scenarios is my favorite. Where you just scenario that scenario, what happens in, you know, the what if then all those type of things. So I think with with fence coming in, you thought, okay, we can be a little bit slower, bring those young guys along with the posts and just kind of give them time. I think that's the way I saw it. I saw camera coming in, maybe getting the opportunity to play right away because of his experience and his, his, we talked about the build and the strength and everything else that he had there. So now you're going back to the freshman and saying, hey, we might need to speed you up a little bit and get you ready because, you know, you're going to get your feet to the fire right away and maybe that's a good thing in the long run. Who knows?

22:32But you're constantly trying to figure out and we've talked big line up, small line up, all these different things. And those are the type of scenarios you've got to be able to talk about because you just don't know what's going to happen. And in this episode, coach, where we're talking about the humanity of it, you are now, it's like you're being asked to be a a psychiatrist or like a pastor or something, which I know you view your role as a lot anyway as a Christian, but like, yes, the rotations and the depth chart and all that. But then there's the, the, they come and sit down in your office like that young man you were talking about who's already asked you about expectations. And, and every athlete has to have this level of, for me, as a baseball player, when I step in the batter's box, I've got to have this level of, like, not hubris, but this confidence that I can hit anything anywhere you're going to throw it to me, right? So there is that level, but then this self-doubt creeps in because you don't know because of the lack of eligibility or not with this player.

23:35So how do you manage that like psychiatrist pastor sort of side of this? Yeah, one of the main things we want to do is make sure our guys know that we're happy they're here. I don't care if it's my 15th guy, my first guy, I don't care if it's my 10th guy on the JV team. I want to make sure that they know we're glad they're here. We're happy you're here. You're here for a reason. We do believe that Lord brings us the guys he wants us to play for us and doesn't bring us the guy he doesn't want to play for us. So we're happy with them anyway. So more than welcome, come in. Let's talk about your role. Let's talk about things. We're never going to say no. You know, you just do what you're supposed to do and we'll take it. It'll take care of itself. So I don't mind that at all. Let's let's talk. But let's talk about what you where you where we see you and then talk about where we need you to go. So those are the big conversations to be able to sit down and really figure out exactly. So the kid knows exactly where he stands today. It may change tomorrow. He may be able to elevate. He may be get past, but there's constant battles. And we talked about this last week, but the teams that are competitive and

24:37practice are going to be, you know, internally will be competitively externally against the teams at the play because there's always those constant battles and practice should be a war. It should be competitive every single day at every position, position, getting back to the LSU thing. That's, you know, those guys are butt heads every day at the same positions. And then all of a sudden you find out that the guy's going to take your place. That can be really hard. So in this situation with him, we're talking about what he needs to do personally to be able to get to the time or the goals that he wants to reach, whatever. But it opened the conversation early. And hopefully that's what the coaching staff has done at Carolina. Open those conversations early with Kaida with Samo with obviously fans himself and explain exactly how you this is where we are right now. But it could change overnight. We've got to be able to be flexible and ready to adjust coach. In those do you more commiserate with them or like in terms of like I get it. I hate it too. Or is it more like buckle up, buddy?

25:39Is you know, like which way do you kind of lean with that? I want to commiserate with them. I want them to understand my my situations too. Yeah. The kid that we're talking about today, he fought like crazy just to get on varsity. And then he kind of seemed to relax a little bit when he got there. And I had three coaches in four years in high school. And every year that I kind of established myself, I got a new coach the next year. And I have to reestablish myself and fight again. And that's what we're missing from him right now. We need that fight on a daily basis. You can't get comfortable. So in this situation, even if fans can't play, I don't want to say I'm kind of to get comfortable. I want him to continue to fight as if he's still competing with fans for a position. I don't want him to relax and say, well, he's no longer eligible. So I can just kind of get my time regardless. It should be a daily thing. And I want to be on the same page with that guy. I want him to understand that I'm on his side.

26:42I care about him. We talked about that in our first meeting. I care about every one of them. I wish they all got full rise. I wish they played every minute. I wish we won every game. And that's not reality. And the reality is we can only put five guys on a floor at a time. And then we've got to go compete. And hopefully we can get rotation 8 to 10 guys that are going to play at a high level every single night. And that's the goal. So the problem is it takes 15 guys sometimes more than that to be able to figure out who those top 10 kids are going to be. And it seems like at least at some level part of this conversation that that's understood. I don't know that you've directly used this phrase with me today, but I'm hearing it is a control what you can control kind of narrative. Oh, definitely. And and and be motivated and bring it every day. And that's I think that's the problem we're having right now is we get guys that will bring it one day. And then the next day kind of seemed like, oh, I'm cool. Where I am. And it comes down to not just the leadership of the coaches, but comes down to leadership of the team. The difference between last year's team and this year's team for us as the leadership is way better this year.

27:44And we've got guys that will motivate teammates and we don't have to say anything. We did a long conditioning session last night and the there was no conversation at all from the coaches that all came from the players. And I love that. It just means that they're taking care of their business together without us having to get involved. That's what it's all about. OK, I think I hope you all are hearing from coach and I today that. Yes, it's continue. It's important to continue talking about the logistics of this and the construction of it and what it can mean for Carolina's roster. If Cameron Fenz is eligible or not, what it's going to mean for Louisville's roster if Seth is ultimately eligible or not. But we cannot we simply cannot miss the humanity and the toll that this takes on these players on these coaches like coach Rob and their teammates and their families like all of that has to be part of this. And this is why we just keep coming back to the holy cow. This is crazy of it all. We need to know if these young men and on the women's side, these young ladies are going to be eligible or not.

28:48That's the fair thing for them. Clarity is kindness. Yes, and no are both great answers. And that's what we're looking for. But because it's the job because it's what's here, we will continue to talk about it and unpack it as more news rolls down. Coach, so grateful for your time. As always, I know it's busy with the beginning of the school year and you said team pictures today for the bus, right? Oh, yeah, can't wait. Oh, man, I'm going to need to see that. We're going to have to post it on the show. That'll be a lot of fun. We would appreciate all you being here with us. If you haven't subscribed to the show on YouTube, you can go do that down in the bottom corner on YouTube. We are 200 subscribers away from 15,000 on YouTube. Won't you be the next one? Help us get there before the basketball season. Let's make that push. If you're not already downloading the audio version of the show, even if you're usually a YouTube viewer, getting those audio downloads truly helps us. Would you consider going and doing that, turning on automatic downloads and just let them download? Thank you so much. Come join us in the lockdown, Tar Heels Discord, where we're having a blast talking about the Tar Heels every day, in and out and everything.

29:49We're talking about movies in there the other day. We got a film and TV chat. It's a blast. Links in the show notes come hang out. It's always a great day to be a Tar Heels. We'll talk again tomorrow, but until then. Peace. The Locked On Podcast Network is brought to you by Fandall. Baseball fans, if you think you know who's hitting a home or today, Fandall is giving you a free chance to call your shot with daily dingers. It's easy to play. Just make your free pick for who you think will hit a home run in their game. If you're right, you'll receive a profit boost to use on your next bet for a chance at extra winnix. Best of all, you can make a free pick every day throughout the MLBCs. So are you ready to play your game today? Join all the action at fandall.com. That's fandall.com to play daily dingers and make your free pick on who's hitting a home. Play ball and swing for the fences on Fandall, an official partner of the MLB.

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