Ep 480: Growing To $660M Of AUM By Leveraging SEO (And Now AEO) To Build A Durable Pipeline Of Good-Fit Prospects with Helen Stephens

Welcome to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast, where you go behind the scenes with

financial planner, speaker, and consultant Michael Kitzis to hear stories of how leading

financial advisors navigated the inevitable challenges that arise on the path to success

and get insight from leading industry consultants about how to break through to the next level

in your advisory business.

And now here's your host, Michael Kitzis.

Welcome everyone. Welcome to the 480th episode of the Financial Advisor Success Podcast.

My guest on today's podcast is Helen Stevens. Helen is the founder of Aspen Wealth Management

and RIA based in Fort Worth, Texas, that oversees $670 million in assets under management

for 342 client households. What's unique about Helen, though, is how she has grown her

firm thanks in large part to early investments in search engine optimization, which have

paid off over time, not only through prospects finding her through Google searches, but

also now by getting leads from chat GPT and other artificial intelligence tools.

In this episode, we talk in depth about how Helen's SEO strategy has evolved over time,

as Google has changed how it evaluates sites, moving from creating backend pages that mentioned

her location and services to high quality content that demonstrated her expertise in serving

her ideal fit clients, how creating high quality content and serving a local geographic

area has now paid off through referrals from chat GPT, which often occur when a consumer

goes deep enough into planning questions that chat GPT suggests that they seek out an

advisor, and how that while Helen's commitment to SEO and content creation took time to

pay off in terms of a steady pipeline of prospects, it is contributed to her approximately 30%

annual growth rate over the past five years. We also talk about how Helen made the decision

to move away from internal content creation to work with an all-in-one marketing service

that handles the full scope of her marketing needs, how Helen's firm uses an intake form

to divide leads into those who are likely to be a good fit, who then receive a call from

one of the firm's advisors, those who are edge cases, who get a call from the firm's

client services professional, and those who aren't good fits, who receive referrals to

more appropriate sources of financial advice, and how Helen has found success establishing

a program to serve high earning young professionals who are likely to transition into her ideal target

client profile over time, and be certain to listen to the end, where Helen shares how

she started transferring equity stakes early on in her firm's history, first as gifts then

as owner finance purchases, in part to reward loyal team members who helped the firm grow,

how Helen is executing a succession plan in which she will eventually sell her entire

stake in her firm to internal buyers, allowing the firm to remain independent for the long

haul, and how Helen sees success for herself not only as transitioning ownership of her

firm to second generation successors, but also to see a third generation obtain equity

stakes and ultimately lead the firm into the future.

And so with that introduction, I hope you enjoy this episode of the Financial Advisor

Success Podcast with Helen Stevens.

Welcome Helen Stevens to the Financial Advisor Success Podcast.

It's a joy to be with you today, Michael.

I'm really excited to have you on today, and to get to talk about, this is I like to

joke, like marketing that actually makes the phone ring, or at least like the email

inbox jingle, with all things search engine optimization, because I feel like the historical

industry view has been, if you want to drive growth, you have to get out there and find

it through all the various ways that we've done prospecting and networking over the

years, sitting around and waiting for the clients to call you, the prospects to call you

is waiting for the fish to jump in the boat, so when you go fishing, it's not really

how it works.

But it's always struck me, and the reality is consumers, there are consumers out there

who are actively looking for us.

I mean, that's why there's been so much growth in the lead generation services from the,

like the custodial referral programs, so smart asset, Zoe and DataLine and all those players,

like consumers are looking.

I mean, if you actually look up on Google, the number one advisor related Google search

is Financial Advisor in your B, which also I think in part helps to highlight how lost

consumers are not trying to pick an advisor that they don't search for like best advisor

for me.

They just search for the one that's most geographically convenient to their home or office.

And I know you have spent time trying to figure out how do you drive results from this

reality?

Like there are consumers looking if you can do the things with your website to make sure

your website is the one that comes up in the search, or now like your firm comes up

as the answer when they, you know, check GPT it with AI, that there are tools and techniques

you do to make that the outcome that your firm is the one that comes up.

And so I'm excited to talk to you about just what it really takes to make your firm come

up as the answer when consumers are searching for an advisor and what you've been, what

you've been doing to be successful with this approach over the years.

They're glad to share.

Well, you know, our firm was founded toward the end of 2011 and I realized we're turning

15 this year, which is unbelievable and it's gone fast.

But early on I met a gentleman through the Chamber of Commerce here in Fort Worth named

Mike Davis and he had a company called Go Higher Marketing and I tell me more about that

and he was telling me about search engine optimization.

Now this was before search engine optimization was cool.

Yeah, 2011, not not really a big thing was like a super nitchy place that some strange

hyper specialized marketers played.

Sure.

Well, come 2012.

I mean, at the time I had no money to put into this and anyone who's looked into this

knows it's not a cheap endeavor.

So Mike was patient with me by the end of 2012.

I finally had two nickels to try to scrape together and I said, okay, Mike, I'm ready

to retain you and let's go.

Okay.

And at that time, I had a pretty rudimentary website can't remember who put it together

for me.

But back in that point in time, keyword stuffing and doing back end articles on your website,

were very effective techniques.

Now Google has gotten harder things have evolved.

But I was with for those who aren't familiar like what were those techniques then that

it sounds like you were you were experimenting with when that was in Vogue.

Well, it was an article that would have Fort Worth financial planner, wealth management,

whatever that whatever terms you think somebody is going to go look on Google back then.

That's what you wanted to have in your articles that you were putting on the back side of

your website.

They weren't the things that people were necessarily going to see from the front.

Okay.

So there's articles on the website of how to find a great advisor in Fort Worth, Texas,

because you're in Fort Worth, Texas and you want them to find your website when they

type great advisor in Texas.

But you're not actually sending these articles out to clients.

This isn't like a blog marketing newsletter.

This is, oh, the search engine found it and not a single client found it darn.

They were actually pretty ugly articles.

I mean, they were not the kind of thing you'd want to turn into your English teacher.

And frankly, you would stuff whatever community you wanted.

So if you wanted, you know, here in Fort Worth, we have Arlington, we have South Lake.

We have a lot of different communities surrounding Fort Worth.

So we would target those neighborhoods.

We would target those communities and and target just means like writing articles.

Yes.

So the fact that like being an advisor in Fort Worth or Arlington or South Lake.

So that literally when they type like financial advisor, South Lake, Texas, because so many

people do location search, you come up because you coincidentally have an article about

advisors in South Lake, Texas.

That's right.

And it wasn't just geographic.

It was also a state planning.

It was tax planning.

It was all the various things that we do as planners.

We would write that and, you know, put that on the back side too.

And I mean, just when we say article, I mean, what do we, how much article was was an article?

I mean, what, what kind of things were you writing?

It wasn't long, it wasn't long at all.

I mean, like I said, this was nothing that you wanted to turn into your English teacher.

They were terribly written, but the whole purpose was when Google was serving the, the

landscape, you wanted them to land on your page.

And in over time, the more content that you have that is original, even if it's bad

original, Google starts finding you to be an authority.

And so the more pages you have that are unique and differentiating, the more Google at

that point in time would see you as being an authority.

And so did this work for you as you were like getting going into, I guess, 2013, 2014?

You can't believe it.

My whole business, I mean, now we get a lot of referrals from great clients, but at the

time, I had no clients with which to give me a referral.

So it was incredibly effective.

We could target companies in our area.

We could target, you know, anything you wanted to kind of go for, we went for.

Now all of this comes at a cost and, you know, I was just starting.

I did not have the cash flow with which to, to go at this literally into the deep end,

but I did it as much as I could because it was effective.

And if you land one client from that, it pretty much pays for itself.

So I mean, so how much client activity were you getting?

I mean, like, well, what was good, what was good for you at the time?

Well, honestly, Michael, I don't remember that far back, but it just picked up steam over time.

And I was putting regularly 10 to 15% of my budget into marketing mainly through Google.

And Google, then Google ads, Google ads came along.

And so we were doing some of that.

I learned all about Google Analytics and I would track what are people reading on our website?

What are the things that people are interested in?

And then we would write more about that.

Of course, when the fiduciary movement became a thing, we started writing articles about

fiduciary.

And what does that mean to be a fiduciary?

Staying on top of all of the trends and what people were wanting in their content.

But I guess the key for all of this is you're talking about all these articles you're writing.

These aren't necessarily for clients.

They're not even necessarily seeing it.

This is for, I mean, like, is the goal the prospect lands on your website and sees it?

Or is the goal just Google thinks your site is an authority so they go to your site even

if they weren't even going to read that article because Google just sees you're like a content

machine?

Well, Google would put us up on the first page and actually we rank number one on Google

for a number of different search terms and have for years.

And that drives people to our site, which then hopefully they like the stuff that is written

better.

And they put an inquiry in either through the website or they pick up the phone and call

us.

Are there things you were trying to do to get them from these articles to the actual

point that they reach out and connect with you?

Or was it enough that your page is a contact section and some people reach out and contact

all by themselves?

They would be driven to a landing page that then had a call to action on it.

So they would get on there and at that point in time our website was very different than

it is today.

But the same thing applies, I mean, on your website, you want to call to action.

If you like what you're reading, then give us a call, fill out our, you know, request

a free consultation from our website and we get the email and we're off to the races.

And were those the kinds of call to actions that you were creating even then they find

one of these articles and you have a, you know, if you like what you're reading and you

want to help here in South Lake, Arlington, in search city here, please reach out and

give us a call.

Yes.

Yes.

Or put in a request through our website for a consultation.

And of course, over time, a lot of that has evolved as Google has evolved.

You know, Google, Google's gotten a whole lot more sophisticated and so must the strategies.

I mean, now we have geofencing, we have all kinds of things.

I think the biggest misnomer that everyone thinks by doing search engine optimization is

that I'm going to employ this strategy and I'm going to get overnight success.

And that's not quite how that works.

It takes time and constant investment to make an SEO strategy work.

I've been investing in this essentially now for about 14 years, still do it today.

And it's, you know, I think that's why our growth rate has been just shy of 30% since 2020.

So, so share with us more how this, I guess, it evolved.

I mean, it started with, so it's like a high volume of articles really just targeted to

like common financial planning or geography related keywords that were in the area.

So if they're just, if they're literally searching for tax planning in Arlington, Texas

or wealth management, Arlington, Texas, like here, here they come over the transom to you.

What, what shifted or changed from, from the early, what, what came next as you were executing

on SEO strategies?

Because Google likes original content, they don't like canned content.

So if it's a marketing firm that is selling articles to 25 different RIAs, let's say,

Google's kind of know that that's not original to those firms.

And Google wants original rich content that that it feels has expertise.

And so over time, we've really worked hard to have original articles.

Of course, if social media has evolved, you know,

it's one article that can be used many ways.

It's your blog post, but then it becomes maybe your snippet on a podcast or maybe you use

that same thing on social media or on LinkedIn or so it's, it's create once and use many.

And that's evolved over time.

About three years ago, our firm needed help, we just, we have been very fast growing.

And we just felt like we could not keep up with creating these blog posts and all this

content that is necessary to prop up your search engine optimization.

And so we were lucky in that we found beyond AUM.

And we consolidated all of our marketing and content creation to beyond AUM.

And they've been a fabulous partner.

And they've just sharpened the saw on certain engine optimization and actually really helped

us make the leap over to answer engine optimization.

We get a good many inquiries now from chat GPT.

And the people that land on our page from chat GPT, they effectively always reach out to

contact us.

It's crazy.

And now all of this is trackable, of course.

So it makes it a whole lot easier to see where people are going on your website and to

see what they're looking for.

So so in this context beyond beyond AUM is like a marketing firm, a marketing agency that's

helping.

Yes.

Okay.

They only work with RIA firms and I think maybe even as narrow as V only RIAs.

Okay.

So Helen, I want to get further into beyond AUM in a moment.

But I still want to take one step back and understand, I guess this kind of this window

between when go higher marketing got you started with doing all the content before you got

to beyond AUM where it sounds like you're feeding this content beast as it were to to keep

things going on on SEO.

So how is this work getting done along the way?

I mean, are you the writer, is someone in the firm the writer?

Are you doing that externally to come up with this ongoing flow of original content?

Like how did you actually sustain the strategy through the early years?

Yes.

Yes and yes.

Okay.

I was writing content.

People in the firm were writing content.

Go higher marketing was doing their thing for the back end pages.

We were writing blogs to put on our website.

We were finding content that we could get our hands on and then changing it up to make

it original to us.

It was everything that you can imagine that we did not have time to do.

So that's just what you do in the early days.

You just wear a lot of hats and do a lot of things.

And at that time, Candace Sholes, who's been with me for a long time, she's a great partner.

She was writing content and we were rocked paper, scissors, and going, who has to write

this week?

I mean, it was a little painful to be honest.

And was that the cadence like every week you wanted to put something new out?

We wanted to.

We couldn't keep up with it.

So we had to go to about every two weeks, three weeks.

We were not perfect in our calendar.

That is for sure because we were dealing with inbound inquiries.

We were also trying to market externally.

We were doing everything to try to get the firm to go.

Although it sounds like ultimately was, it was enough that activity was still flowing.

Yes.

How did you figure out what to write about?

I mean, I'm going to imagine initially there's like, let's do one for South Lake, that's

the one for Arlington, let's do one for tax playing, let's do one for state planning.

I'm like, okay, so that's like the weekly articles for the first year.

That comes for like the next five years.

Well, Mike was doing the things that go on the back of the website that we've talked

about that are not pretty and they're not great, but Candace and I were fully focused

on doing the things for the front of the website, for the blog page.

And we would we would track that through Google Analytics to say, okay, what are people

reading?

What are they looking at?

And of course, as we had clients, we would share those articles with the clients and

those were more of the planning technical type of articles, like what to think about

before the year ends that you need to do for taxes or here are the things that you need

to ask yourself about your estate plan or here's how you should save for your child or

grandchild's education, all of that kind of general planning advice kind of thing.

That's what we were creating to put on the blog page of the website and at that time,

people by the way, we really weren't doing much with our socials.

And so the driver was, we've put all this content out, let's see which things, either

our clients are engaging with or consumers are searching and we'll just we'll do more

of whatever the things are turning out to be popular.

Exactly.

It's like come up, come up with a new spin to do that topic again, that kind of thing.

Johnson repeat.

Okay.

And, and a guy just want to make sure, and you weren't, you weren't necessarily trying

to drive all this content out in newsletters and the like.

The whole point was this is just to optimize for more keywords so that people searching

in the area or searching these topics, we'll find their way to you.

Yes.

And, and I guess just have to ask, and like the, the, it, it, it wasn't overshadowed by

all the personal finance sites that also do similar kind of content, or is that part

of how it's evolved.

I feel like, you know, how to say for my grandchildren's college would be a pretty crowded space now.

Then, I think the opportunity set was much larger.

Okay.

And again, this is a, this is a system that it just takes so much time.

I've, I've talked to other advisor friends who say, well, we've been investing in search

and den optimization and we're not getting any leads.

And I'm like, well, it's, it's not a 90 day turnaround.

It takes time to get this thing built and to have it finally start working.

We're not going to be seen as an authority overnight by Google.

And of course, now it's more crowded than it was back then.

We're just lucky that we started it when we did.

Do you recall even back then how, how long did it take before the, the, the, the seeds

started to flower?

I would say at that point in time, it was really about nine months.

And I was getting a little frustrated because here I'm pouring this money that I really

didn't have to pour into this hope that I was going to have this holy grail of, of referrals

or people coming in to the firm because they found us on the internet.

And it took a little time for that to happen.

But when it did, when it turned, it really turned.

And we have had a, just a constant stream of inbound inquiries ever since.

So Helen, as you were doing all of this, were there particular, like, keywords, paths

that were more, more or less successful?

Like did the, did the location based things like Arlington and South like do better than

the, the topic based ones, like a state planning and tax planning was, you know, company specific

ones better than location ones, like which, which keywords actually, like drove results

that got, got client outcomes for you.

In the beginning, it was more geographic.

So if people were looking to your point, financial plan are near me, wealth management near

me, then those resonated really high.

A lot of times people were going on to research a question that they might have, like, how

much life insurance do I need, you know, they would ask these questions of Google and luckily

they would see our result pop up in the first few results on Google.

And then there we would be, of course, that's evolved a lot over the years and it's different.

But certainly after the fiduciary movement, you know, anyone looking up fee-only planning

or financial planning for a fee, those really started resonating with Google as well and

got us really high results.

So Helen, then where did it evolve next?

Like I kind of feel like there's phases.

Phase one was geographic based and that drove for the early years, then Department of Labor

did their fiduciary thing, like fiduciary fee-only was a big driver for a while.

So where did it evolve next in the keywords and SEO that were driving outcomes for you?

I think the evolution was just like with anything else on the internet, people started

asking, as opposed to going in and putting in a term, people started asking questions.

And it's those content-related questions that I think started driving people even more

toward our content.

They were looking for information on how much insurance should I have.

How do I do this?

How do I do that?

Anything that is technical plan information and that started landing.

So all the content-related pages over the last several years are what really ranks

on our website.

So how much insurance I have, how to do a backdoor Roth conversion, things like that,

where we're driving more outcomes?

Yes, but in particular, we find that anything tax-related is very popular.

People don't like paying taxes, Michael.

Yeah, most of us really enjoy producing that tax bill.

So then where did beyond AUM come into the picture?

Like why the shift from what you were doing to a new provider?

That was a very painful transition for us.

We just needed more help.

We could not continue.

We went through a period of time with a content provider doing articles and things for us,

but they just were not sophisticated enough for the types of clients that we were trying

to attract.

They were probably great for a young professional target market, but not for hours.

And so we just needed a better fit.

And we felt like it would be great to be able to only have one provider to do all of this

for us and beyond AUM can do everything from public relations to social media management,

to article creation, to invitation creation for our events.

I mean, they're really a one-stop shop for us.

And so at that time, we decided to consolidate everything to beyond AUM and quit trying to

piece me a lot.

It was just getting to be too much and too difficult.

And to have that one-stop shop and to have their brain power, they know this stuff.

I'm a financial planner.

I'm not a marketing genius.

And so I really need their expertise and they provide that.

And they know more about how to do all of this answer, advice, engine optimization than

I do.

It's kind of gone beyond my understanding, to be honest with you.

So just curious from a firm perspective, was there a point where you thought about hiring

this and bringing it in-house?

Like to say, we're going to have an SEO marketing manager on the team.

Or was it always a path of we do the content internally, but we want to outsource externally

all the rest?

You know, that's a great question.

And I really considered for a short period of time hiring somebody to come in who could

do things for us.

However, I think to have somebody who can be an expert in all of these different areas

is difficult to find.

And I could hire beyond AUM for about the same cost as a human.

And oh, by the way, I get access to a lot of different team members on their team, all

who are experts at the one thing they do, whether that's writing, whether that's social

media, whatever that is.

So I just felt like we were going to get more bang for our buck by going with beyond AUM.

And it sounds like from what you said, I mean, that wasn't a cost savings per say in that

beyond AUM still costs you the same as a human.

So however many thousands of dollars per month, but you get more than what one human likely

knows when you work with a larger agency that's got multiple folks on board.

So if I'm understanding where like that was the driver, like it's not an in-source versus

outsource cost savings decision for you, it's a who's just got the breadth of capabilities

and services and ability to keep up with it, well, I'd rather just have it be all their

problem than have to hire and manage the like right person that knows all the things and

retain them.

Yes, exactly.

I haven't found, I have two daughters who study communications in college and, you know,

I spoke with them about it.

And it's really rare to find somebody who knows how to do search engine optimization,

who knows how to do all the social media stuff, plus the PR, I mean, they can dabble in

each of these areas, but they're not experts.

And so are they also creating the content now or do you and the team keep that?

No, they create the content for us now.

We put together a content calendar with them, we meet with them every month and we approve

everything, obviously, compliance has to approve, but they're doing all the writing now.

And the only thing we still create in-house are monthly webinars, but they really do

everything else for us.

All that writing, all that content, our blog, our socials, it's all them.

Interesting.

And I mean, are you, aside from approving topics, I mean, are you involved in the

content creation at all or they've just surely got the depth to be able to figure out the

content to put on the website and actually create it with CFP level knowledge appealing

to high-value prospects?

Right.

So now, when we get the article in and I'm removing myself from all of this at the current

time, succession planning is in my future.

So when we get the articles, there are times that we may suggest that they add a point

or two or, you know, edit in some small way, but by and large, they're doing all of the

writing and we're approving.

We are really not involved in the article creation at all.

Interesting.

And this transition was about, I think you said three years ago.

Yes.

And it's fabulous.

So what shifted over the past three years?

A refinement of everything that we do and how we do it.

They run on traction, we run on traction.

They're very focused on our target ideal client and it's not just how much money do they

have.

It's all the psychographic.

You know, where do they hang out?

What are their hobbies?

What are their interests?

What do they like to do?

All of these different things all go into this persona, right, or these personas, and

that's what they're writing to.

And it's just taken such a lift off of the team.

We just didn't have the bandwidth to keep up with it anymore.

So what happens with all the free time that you've created as you send it out?

Oh, you're hilarious, Michael.

There's no free time.

We have a lot of inquiries coming in the door.

We've got a lot of meetings going on.

We need to love up on our clients as much as we can and keep space for inquiries and

new clients and new planning clients.

And I think you said part of the work with Beyond AUM over the past few years has now been

trying to lean into answer engine optimization.

Like how do we come up in AI search tools?

So can you share more of what you're doing there or what they're doing with you in the

answer engine optimization domain?

That gets a little outside of my expertise, Michael.

I was very involved early on when we did SEO, but now everything about this has just gone

past me.

I'm 58 years old.

I'm a whole dog.

I'm really having a hard time learning the new tricks.

I do know, though, that every single month, the number of people coming to ask and wealth

management site from chat and GPT is increasing, we're watching it.

And it is unbelievable to me, the number of people that do land on the site that make an

inquiry.

It is not quite a hundred percent, but it's really close, nine out of ten.

Which is fascinating.

What that implies is they're not looking up financial planning tips and coming to your

website, because I think that the AI tools just give them an answer directly.

I mean, the, yes, they decided for the implication is, no, they're basically asking chat, GPT,

like, find a good financial advisor near me, I'm in South Lake, and it is saying, well,

you should contact ask and wealth management because they're a recognized advisor in

South Lake.

And so they get to your website already having the intent of why I came here to reach out

to someone.

I mean, chat, GPT, don't be with me.

It's actually that they're trying to do their own financial plan with chat GPT.

And eventually, yes, and eventually, they get themselves talked into a whole and chat

GPT says, we think you would be better served by finding a financial planner in your area.

Would you like for me to make a suggestion to which they say yes.

And that's when we get the referral from chat GPT.

Oh, because you've asked, like, I'm assuming just you've asked them, like, what led you

to us?

How, what was your job?

Yes.

And they show us their chat GPT file.

So they start with a, with kind of a generic financial planning question.

And then they kind of get into the whole of chat GPT keeps asking them question and question

and question.

And they to get nowhere.

And finally, chat GPT gets exhausted and says, can I make a referral?

You're using too many credits.

This is no longer a profitable chat GPT session, GPT.

It's fascinating, though, that, I mean, the, I feel like the joke in the financial advisor

world for a long time was, yeah, but how deep can the AI tools ever really get to know

to understand you and, you know, you, you got to watch out whether it's going to hallucinate

and how deep can it device really be?

It's fascinating to me that now it's gotten to the level that because chat GPT has put

its own guard rails in place, I think around a lot of domains, like finance and health

and a few others where, I mean, I'm guessing chat, chat GPT is just afraid it's going to

get sued if it gives too much medical or financial advice that people act on that turns

out to not go well, that the tool has figured out that when it needs to make a referral

out because it's in over its own liability or knowledge head and the thing it does is

it says, would you like me to help you find a financial advisor?

If tax planning was easy, we wouldn't need holistic plan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What was the, the great quote I heard the other day from Derek Sievers, if, if, if information

was alone was enough, we'd all be billionaires with great apps.

Absolutely.

I love that.

Yeah.

So, and I was going to ask, how do you know that they're finding you through chat GPT?

I guess you, you see the sessions coming from chat GPT and Google Analytics and, and you

just like ask them when they sign up, like, where, how did you find us?

Where did you, where did you hear about us?

We ask every inquiry, how did you come to find ask them off management or who may we

thank for the referral?

And they say, well, actually, I wasn't referred to you except by chat GPT.

We had our first Gemini referral the other day too.

I don't know where that's going, but up to now, it's all been chat GPT.

We track everything and, and I would say anyone who wants to bite off SEO, AEO, meaning

answer engine optimization, if you're not tracking your analytics, I mean, that's kind

of a basic one-on-one thing, right?

You've got to get on your, your analytics and know where people are finding you from and

what the content is that they're reading and engaging with.

And, and so what do you, like, what do you look at to figure that out?

Like, what's your, the dashboard on Google Analytics?

Okay.

And I always, I've tracked that from the very beginning because I wanted to know that

I was getting a return on investment early on.

And now, beyond AUM created this super cool dashboard for us that we can just go in and

see the results across time frames, which you can on Google Analytics too.

It is our Google Analytics dashboard.

They just made a big giant dashboard for us of our Google Analytics, our Facebook Analytics,

our LinkedIn Analytics.

So we can really track everything.

And I am fascinated by this.

I mean, not with saying all the other discussion of, I guess, like, you know, take action.

How do I do this articles and fiduciary articles?

I mean, if I, if I heard you right, I don't know if it was, it meant to be this literal,

but when you, when you get to the end of the rabbit hole, chat GPT, and it wants to

kick you out, it's saying things like, would you like me to just financial, find a financial

advisor near you, which, which goes like full circle back to 15 years ago, that it's now

when chat GPT decides to suggest you, it's because it's, it, we're back to South Lake,

Arlington, Fort Worth, like location based because it, it, it knows where you are because

it can read the internet and, and all the SEO that you already did shows up the same way

when it basically does its own location based search on behalf of the, the user of chat GPT.

Isn't it amazing?

Yeah, I really, it really is.

It's just like that, that came, that came fast sayingly full circle because I, I feel

like the fear for a lot of media folks these days is consumers don't seem to be going out

to the internet for informational content as much as they did in the past because I used

to type the question to Google and read the article and now I type the question to chat GPT

and it reads the article and tells me the answer.

So I don't necessarily go to articles to read answers the way that I did before, not, not

me personally, but the collective we of, of consumers and, and almost every media site

has seen traffic declines.

So it, it, it's striking to me that now we're back to where we were 15 years ago where

I got my information from other places I'm ready to take action and if I like geographic

convenience, which granted not all clients do, but many clients do, we're right back to

local geography search.

Well, and chat GPT gives you the links.

If it gives you an answer, it tells you where it found the answer.

So you can click on that and if they're pulling from an article that is on our website,

then people can click and get to our website and read the article.

So I don't know how much of that is going on, but certainly it's happening.

And, and who are, like, who are the ideal clients that you're going after?

I mean, what are, what are prospects for you?

Our target prospect is between two and seven million and is a pre-retire.

And that's the level of folks that are finding you in Google and chat GPT.

Yes.

I think, I don't know, I feel like that's, that's a surprise for some folks who are listening.

I suspect to just would not have assumed that's how higher net worth folks are finding

advisors.

25% of our Google leads are all the leads, whether they come from chat GPT,

all of the inquiries into Aspen, 25% of them are qualified between two and seven million.

Some of them have funds, they're invested or they're business owners, so they're not super

liquid.

I'm not including those in that 25%.

They certainly have the net worth.

They just don't have the liquidity, but we can still do a great financial plan for them

and love them and nurture them until the time they sell that business.

And, and I guess in the, in the theme that you highlighted earlier, I guess the irony,

if, if my dollar amounts are smaller and my situation, it may be is a little bit simpler,

I might really just actually get the answer from chat GPT and call it a day.

It's, it's the higher dollar clients with more complexity who start saying, well, but

give me a recommend, well, what about this, but what about this, but what about this?

And keep asking for more context because their situations are genuinely complex, that

those ironically probably are the prospects that chat GPT is most likely to say, you

know what, maybe I should just refer you to an advisor in your area, would you like

me to find one against, it's the, it's the complexity of the client that makes them

good for us, that also happens to be the complexity that makes them not finish their, and hold

journey on chat GPT, it has chat GPT sent them out.

Michael, we're needed, we're needed in the world.

So, so help us understand just, I guess, numbers and flow overall.

So, I mean, how, at the end of the day, like, how many leads come through in these various

SEO channels for you every year?

Well, and we track summer to summer, which throws some people off because we have our,

our, what we call our charge meeting, other people may retreat, but it has been we charge.

And our charge meeting every summer, we restart our data.

So in our 2024 to 2025 scoreboard, we had 137 of our inquiries come from Google.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, we had 65 come from referrals or COI referrals.

Oh, wow.

So, I mean, you're, like, your high slices of activity is basically two thirds Google

SEO, one third referrals.

Yes.

And, and you said about 25% of these ultimately proved to be qualified at your two million

plus level.

Yes.

And then, what is, I don't know if you keep this data, what, like, what is close rate

look like for you?

I mean, traditionally, I think the view is referrals close at very high rates and everything

else is much, much lower, but I, I don't know how that shows up for you.

Well, you're not wrong, the, the, what we call a plan conversion, meaning they go on

to sign up to do a full financial plan.

The plan conversion rate runs around, depending on the year, 15%, 20%, okay.

So, you do soft to deal with more people kicking tires and asking questions and, and being

challenging and, and all the one for ways the prospects are a little bit.

A little bit.

Yeah.

I will say we've, we've done some things on our website to try to help people self-select

out.

Okay.

And so, that's helped those statistics a little bit.

What do you do to help people select out?

Well, we have an FAQ page that says very plainly what a plan is going to cost and who

are the people that we want to work with, their delegators, their, you know, we, we tried,

we tried to make it to where people can say, oh, I could see myself there or no, they're,

they're not going to be a good fit for me.

So we're not getting people that are looking for things like debt consolidation.

We're not getting anything like that, but we do get people who are under the impression

that we work for free that will do a financial plan for free.

We don't do that.

So it's always fascinating to me that there's this shift that happens for a lot of us in

marketing where, you know, early on the opportunities are scarce, so we just want to, want to take

on anything that we can, we can get in that bat for and try to win and try to convert

any business.

But if the marketing funnel gets robust enough, there comes a point where a lot of lead

flow and activity is coming through.

And it's great to talk to lots of good fit prospects, but it is very time frustrating

to talk to bad fit prospects and it's worse to talk to a high volume of a bad fit prospects.

And so there comes the point where the switch flips and all of a sudden, I'm not trying

to draw in as many leads as I can, I'm actually starting to filter them because I don't want

to fill my calendar with bad fits that aren't going to do business anyways.

And then all of a sudden, I'm actually trying to window down leads that I would not have

necessarily done early on, but now it makes sense.

Right.

We don't let people just get on our calendar.

So when an inquiry is made generally, they're doing that through our website.

There's a phone call that's made.

And so we're still refining.

It's always difficult, but trying to keep those people off the calendar.

So if they're not great fits, then we'll refer them out to somebody else that we think

would be a better fit for them or send them to another resource that we think might

be able to help.

So who's doing the phone call?

We have both our very capable and long time client services, professional Michelle on the

front line of our firm.

She was my first hire many years ago.

And so she's talked to scores and scores of people and she does a great job of trying

to qualify people out.

If we have somebody who comes through our website, we generally ask them what their life stage

is and how much investible they have.

And if there is someone who is obviously a high dollar, sounds like it could be a really

good fit for the firm, then generally that will be sent to either our business development

person who's also a planner on our team to give them a phone call or even one of the other

senior planners.

It just depends on everybody's bandwidth and how much capacity we have.

Interesting.

So, I guess the filtering, if it's someone who clearly qualifies by assets and life stage,

then it might go to one of the advisors calendars to do business development.

If they're not, but they otherwise have made an inquiry and we just want to clarify, maybe

they're still an opportunity, they didn't express it well in the form.

That goes to Michelle and then Michelle has a conversation and decides either to refer

them out or to move them on to an advisor's calendar.

Yes.

And if they're a young professional, we have one of our senior associates is kind of the

head of our young professional program and that lead goes to him and he can call them

and qualify them and talk to them about our young professional program.

So, I'm just trying to visualize literally the form or the intake process.

How does the routing actually happen?

I mean, does the form change of who they're going to get to schedule with depending on

which investment assets box they check off does every form go to like some standard

inbox and then they get a follow-up that's either you click the schedule Michelle button

or the click the schedule with business development advisor button.

Like, how do you actually handle the flow to make sure the right prospects go on

to the right person's calendar?

Sure.

So, every single inquiry goes to a certain mailbox.

It's infoataskinalthangmt.com and Michelle is the gatekeeper.

So Michelle gets the infoat box.

She monitors that box and depending on what box they checked and what they look like,

either she'll call them directly and screen them through or she'll forward it on and she

knows she can see everybody in the firm's calendar.

She knows who's going to have the bandwidth of time to get back to that inquiry.

And so she can direct it accordingly.

If there are going to be somebody who wants the South Lake office, well then we need somebody

who is going to be up in the South Lake office.

If they are a fourth person, then it's going to be a fourth person and so forth and so

long.

Okay.

So, when prospects reach out, I mean, they're literally not even hitting like a calendar

only scheduler.

They're just submitting a form and Michelle's going back to them to schedule them herself

or to forward to an advisor who will schedule them or do they submit a phone number and you

just literally call them.

We call or email them whatever they prefer.

But no, we don't let anyone just get on our calendars.

So when she forwards that inquiry on to an advisor, they can make that phone call.

They can determine if it's a great fit and if it is a great fit, then they can get on

the calendar and we've got something set and we've got a whole workflow around that.

Okay.

And if you're still not sure if it's a fit, Michelle is comfortable to take that call.

Yes.

Yes.

She's been doing it for so long now that she knows, she knows who should make it through

the gate and who we should try to find another resource for.

And it sounds like, I mean, her role isn't to convince the client to come on board and

like get the client, it's to determine if they're financially qualified so you know whether

to commit an advisor's calendar time to continue the conversation.

Yes.

And what are they looking for?

And if they're coming in because they have a very specific modular need, well, that's

not what we do.

We don't do modular planning at Aspen.

So we want to get you with another firm locally that we know or in the Metroplex that we know

and could certainly handle that for you.

We've got, you know, we've tried to network with a lot of our peers here in the area to

where if they do that kind of planning, well, then we'll make an introduction, see if

it's a fit.

So, so then help us understand what this all adds up to as it were like, well, tell us

about Aspen Wealth Management as the advisory firm as a whole exists today.

Well, today we have 342 households.

We have 670 million under management.

We've grown.

We have an annual growth rate since 2020 that's just shy of 30% per year.

Well.

And in that 342 households, we have 60 households that we call our young professional program

and they are under 40.

They are prolific savers and they really want to do everything right early on.

And the target is that they will be over a million at the age of 40.

Okay.

So, how many people is it in the firm?

Well, today we have 10.

Yeah.

We have 10 team members and there's four seniors that are partners, including myself.

We have a planner who's a business development individual.

We have a senior associate.

We have an associate that is also a trader.

And in two weeks, we have a new lead planner coming on board.

We have a new associate coming on board in June and we have an intern coming on this summer.

And then what does it look like in terms of administrative operational or their support

team?

So we have a director of operations and we have two client service individuals.

So I think through so four seniors, a biz dev, two associates, director of operations

and two client service.

Yeah.

So it takes you through the team.

That's exactly it.

And you know, I think one of the things that I've been blessed throughout the journey at

Aspen is to be able to hire ahead of growth.

So we've never really been caught flat footed where our growth rate has been, you know,

where we can't find somebody to come to work for us.

I mean, I've been very lucky in that regard that we've always been able to hire ahead of

growth.

And then the growth comes and we grow into it.

So is there a trigger point for you where you hire?

Like how do you know when to do the next hire?

I read all these different metrics that come out as to when it's a right time to hire

somebody, but I never feel like it's that perfect.

I've just been so lucky that people have found me and have approached me and want to come

to work for Aspen.

And so I've never really had to go out looking for a planner to be honest with you.

I'm just spoiled.

But you can make the decision when they come to you and knock on your door whether now is

a reasonable enough time to say yes, as opposed to I'm I'm sorry, we need to grow a little bit

further before we can take you on.

Yes, I wish it was more scientific because it sure is heck on the margins when you hire ahead of

growth, but generally when these wonderful people who I'm lucky enough to work with have

three days when they've approached me, it's been the perfect time.

It's really you find that great person who fits with the culture.

That's a lucky find and they they still have the servant's heart and they really fit with

the team.

I'm going to grab them and I know we're going to grow into it.

I'd rather have it that way and have the perfect team member that fits with our company

and our culture and has the right, you know, servant's heart for our clients.

I would rather find that person, bring them on and suffer a little bit from a margin,

then get to the other position where you've had too much growth and you can't find that

great fit.

And then can I ask where does a revenue sit overall for the firm now?

Revenue is a little over four million.

So what's drove so much growth over the past five years?

I mean, I've just struck you know, 30% a year for five plus years is like three

ex almost four, exing the firm in total.

So you're like, you've grown more in the past like year or two than the first 10

combined, I think, by that math.

So where's it all, where's it all coming from?

Well, it's a combination.

I think it's, I always think about the book, Good to Great that we all read many moons

ago and the concept of the flywheel.

And it just feels like when you start out, you just push and push and push and the wheel

just won't move.

And then when it starts moving, it really moves.

So now we have the bandwidth of clients that we get a lot of referrals.

And you combine that with all the SEO that we've done over time.

And then you combine that with the fact that we've always been willing to do financial

planning for a fee without requiring assets.

And those people are now starting to have those life events that they're coming to us

going, what do I do with this money?

And so it's just kind of that three-pronged approach and it's just been the span of time.

Now that we've been in business for 15 years, our pipeline is really large.

And those planning-only clients have had a great experience and they're excited to come

back with a trusted team that they already know and are familiar with.

That combined with those client referrals and then still the answer engine optimization

that's going on is just a really great, I mean we're just having great success with it all.

So what comes next from here is you look out over the next three, five, ten years of the

business.

Well last summer, we had our annual charge meeting and we do that with the entire team.

And we set out to be 1.25 billion in five years.

In order to do that, we made our hiring plan and we're executing on our hiring plan

right now.

We are executing on some marketing initiatives that we've had.

So we feel like we're in a really good position to keep this going.

And what's your time horizon to all of this?

You said earlier you're 58 coming into this, having been going for 15 years in the firm

already.

So what's your time horizon?

What comes next for you?

Funny you should ask.

I am hoping to be part time in 2027.

2027, that's close, okay?

Yes.

And then I hope to work part time for several years with a key group of clients that I'll

keep.

But I am well underway in a succession plan.

In fact, we're executing on the documents for another sale of the company.

I've been moving equity since the firm hit 100 million.

And we've done it a little bit at a time.

So far, I'm down to 60% of the 40% that I've relinquished, 5% has been by gift and 35%

has been a sale.

And those gifts have been internal to my team.

So or now I have so many more questions.

So tell me.

All right.

So gifts first and sale.

So tell me about the gifts.

What was the gift?

How did that work?

Who received?

Well, the first gifts were to Michelle.

I already told you she was higher number one.

Yeah.

And then gift number two, gift number two was to Candace.

When Candace first came on board with me, it was in 2014.

And she had come out of the Texas textures.

The career changer, Texas tech master's degree in financial planning.

She came to me and said, I want to work for a fee-only firm in Fort Worth.

And you look incredible.

And I said, I have no money with which to pay you.

And she says, well, that's okay.

And I'm like, it's not okay.

You need a wage.

And so we made an agreement and that girl did not make very much money.

Let me tell you.

So when I started moving equity, obviously, I wanted to do something for her to say, this

is something we've built.

It's not about me.

It's about we.

And so I gifted her over December 31st, January the 1st, up to the IRS gift limit in stock

of the company.

I've tried to do that along the way with everyone who has worked at Aspen, who has helped

build it.

I think that's super important and to share in the success that we've all done together.

So gifted up to gift limits, but in shares of stock split over tax years.

I'm assuming, oh, I guess you said earlier, 5% in gift across people.

So these are not huge stakes, but it's meaningful dollars to the team and the opportunity as

they get a percent or a portion of a percent in shares that we'll appreciate for them.

I guess, and have massively appreciated for them.

Right.

I mean, those initial gifts are six times maybe even more valuable than they were when

they were received.

And that was really on purpose.

I mean, I really, I really believed in our firm and our team.

And I know that it's not the firm that Helen has built.

It's the firm that our whole crew has built.

And it meant a lot to me to be able to do that and to reward them in some way.

We don't have a fancy stock plan, phantom plan.

Any of these things, it's pretty straightforward.

I don't want to get too fancy with it, plus we're a sub-ass corporation.

So then when did the sales kick in?

So the sales kicked in.

My first sales were in 2020.

And I also think when you talk about our growth rate, people who are equity shareholders

view things a little differently than straight W2 employees.

And I also think our growth rate has an owner effect to it, that I have three partners.

And they act like owners.

They are entrepreneurial in their own mind.

And they are very driven for success of Aspen, now that they are owners, they're motivated.

So how did sales work, if I can ask me how much did you transition, how did you value

it, how do you finance it, the internal successions can be challenging for some firms.

I'm very curious how you actually went about the execution of this.

Sure.

So we get a valuation.

If I'm going to move shares, then we're going to get a valuation that's fair for both

sides, right?

Okay.

And who do you use for the valuation?

Advice dynamics partners, David Ceeleg.

And so we get the valuation and then I determine how much I'm willing to let go of in any particular

year.

And we have all the internal documents that have been legally done and we execute.

And up to now, it has been the Bank of Helen that has been financing this and I am about

to sell 9% and it will still be the Bank of Helen.

And then in 2027, at the time that I go part time, we're going to have what I call the

big sale.

And we are going to go from my 51% down to 19% and we'll expand the ownership.

So when you do the external valuation with Advice dynamics partners, do you sort of like sell

for the outright value, do you do any kind of internal discounting, minority discounting?

Some firms have ways that they try to adjust the price and others say, like, no, the price

of the firm is the price of the firm, which you like to buy.

Well, you discount it last if I'm the bank.

Okay.

At the time that I have the big sale, the team knows they're going to have to go find the

external financing and take me out.

And at that point in time, I fully expect to have to take probably a 25% discount.

Okay.

Why just just for sheer financing affordability?

Part of it, but it is closely held like any other business and I do recognize there

are people gasping out there that say, but my goodness, you could sell externally and

get so much more money.

And it's not about the money for me.

I mean, we want to stay ferociously independent.

Our clients have told us they want us to stay independent.

So if that's the goal, if that's what I think is in the best interest of our team and

our clients, which I do, then I have to be willing to give a little in that too.

And so what triggers the, you were comfortable to do, a bank of hell and I like to put that,

bank of hell and financing in the earlier stages, but are expecting them to do an external

financing here.

So I'm curious to hear more of your thought process through that.

Well, once I'm a 19% owner, I think it's just a better division of church.

I think it's going to be a better division for me to stay if they have their own financing.

And it achieves a couple of objectives.

One, I'm stepping back and I'm trying to go semi-retired.

We'll see if I manage to do that.

Stay tuned.

But I don't think it's a good practice over the long haul to be the banker for your partners.

We've done this because I could make it way more affordable for them by keeping the rate

at a very reasonable amount versus what they could get externally.

So it's gotten us pretty far down the road.

I mean, if you think about it, by the time that I have the big sale, I will have sold

off 49%, well, minus the gifts, but I will have relinquished 49% of the company and they've

done it at really great interest rates.

So I feel like it's been a great time for them to build equity in the company to where

now they should be able to take it over and service the financing just fine.

Cash flow solves a lot of problems.

Well, I guess practically they already collectively own 40%, so they've got some cash flow already

from the shares that they own and they get cash flow from the shares that they buy because

they'll own them at that point.

Right.

I assume that that bridges the gap a lot from them trying to buy 81% of the firm from scratch

all in one fell swoop.

Yes.

They will have a lot of equity already built up by the time we have the big sale, which

was kind of by design.

We hoped it was going to turn out that way and it has.

So who gets to participate on the other end of the buying process?

I mean, is this all team members, certain team members, certain roles, like how do you

decide who who participates?

So right now the sale I'm about to embark on is going to be the same three partners that

I have already.

Okay.

They can each buy 3%, which I think all three of them will buy their 3%.

And we have a broader sale like what we're talking about doing in another year.

There are great team members that we would love to be able to bring in as partners.

We want to continue to be employee-owned and we want people to have the opportunity to

participate in that if they want to.

And I've got to ask, how does management work on the other end of this?

Like do you step away from management?

Do all the owners and new owners get the proverbial seed at the table?

Are you coming up with new and different structures about how management works on the

other end of this?

We just finished redoing our operating agreement.

So we've changed it from being a founder-centric agreement to a member-managed agreement.

So it changes the rules.

It's not just what Helen says goes anymore and this is our year to work in a kinks out

of that system, but we do have a leadership team.

And I don't see that team changing going forward, but certainly if people are investing their

hard earned money into the company, they need to have a seed at the table.

But there are rules set out in our operating agreement that state what percent agreement

for something to happen if we were to try to go out and acquire somebody, for instance,

which I can't imagine we do, but you never know.

So the operating agreement lays out what percentage of ownership has to approve whatever the

action is.

And so you get things like a 51% has to approve an acquisition, 80% have to approve a sale

or something along those lines.

Something along those lines, yes.

But that operating agreement was a big hurdle in going from being Helen's the founder and

she's the boss and what she says goes to we're all in this together, we're a leadership

team.

And I will relinquish the leadership of the firm at that time.

So what are what kinds of things did you actually have to codify into the operating agreement?

I mean, it sounds like buying and selling would be a big one that's that's common.

What else did you put in or just like what else did you have to talk through and negotiate

through and navigate through to get an updated operating agreement?

Well, the managing member, how does somebody become a managing member?

How does a managing member get replaced if needed?

What if the managing member doesn't want to serve in the managing member role anymore?

How much money can somebody spend without getting the approval of other people?

How do we get people at a certain age when must they start relinquishing their shares?

And how many years do they have to do it?

So for me, once I'm down to 19%, I'm going to have five years to sell the rest of my shares

to zero.

Oh, wow.

Okay.

So there's no perpetual, there's no perpetual partners.

So the idea is that by the time that I'm 65 years old, I will have no ownership left

of Aspen.

Okay.

I guess in theory, you could, you could keep working there and serving clients if you

want and get some kind of salary compensation for the work.

It's the, it's the ownership that has to transition.

Yes.

So we laid out and defined all those rules, which feels really good.

And I mean, just inferring from the whole conversation, but it's, it's not a concern for you that

you don't get to continue on this ownership journey longer for a firm that's still growing

so well.

When you put it like that, Michael, you know, that's trying to make it negative.

I just, I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I recognize

that it would be ideal if I could hang on to a little bit for a long, long time, right?

But is that the healthiest thing for Aspen and Aspen's independence long term?

If that's the goal, then I need to be willing to, to give it up.

So what's surprised you the most on this journey of building an advisory business?

What surprised me the most, I think, is how lucky I've been with the people who have shown

up to work alongside me.

I can't say enough about our team.

And I just can't believe that such wonderful people would show up wanting to work with me.

That I met from conferences or whatever.

I mean, I've just gotten so lucky.

And I just, I believe in that team so much.

Like I never knew that I could have such faith and trust in a group of people

that frankly are going to take care of me and my family when I retire.

So it's just, it's a really comfortable place to be in.

And was this like something you did by design, like that you were trying to network

and put out feelers and always have people in your, in your pipeline?

Or these are just kind of moments of serendipity is life happened.

Serendipity is just, it is crazy.

But I feel very blessed and very lucky and humbled that they would want to come and work with me.

So what was the low point on this journey?

Well, the low point of the journey was how Aspen was founded.

I was working at a firm that I thought was my forever home.

And we were not feeling we had a broker-dealer relationship.

And our founder and owner decided to get us in bed with a pretty unscrupulous broker-dealer

whose idea of financial planning was selling private placements

and other really bad investment product to seniors.

And I just couldn't believe it.

And so I went and had a conversation.

It's one of the principles.

I mean, I was the head of planning.

I was doing the financial planning for clients.

And I love the clients and I love my co-workers.

But I went and I just said, I can't do this.

This is not ethical to me.

It doesn't feel good to me.

And frankly, it really doesn't fit in the parameters of a lot of these financial plans.

And I was basically told to get in line and do it.

And so I said, I quit.

I'm not going to do it.

And then I started looking to see, OK, who does financial planning and for it worth

that I could go to work for?

And there really wasn't any one leading with planning.

And so that's how I founded it.

As I thought, well, if nobody else is doing it, there's a need out there.

And I'm going to do it.

And so I did.

You know, that year, particularly Michael, was incredible.

Because it was the year that the SEC said, if you're under 100 million,

you have to go back to your state.

Right.

So I was trying to get my shingle hung.

And I'm in this long line of people in the state of Texas having to register.

So it took a hot minute for me to get started.

But I did.

And a way we went.

So I guess I'm just curious.

In retrospectly, what changed that this was a firm that you were at?

You were a principal at.

You were embedded in ostensibly.

You would think things were going well.

And then suddenly you're like in this new line of business offering these things

that you didn't that you didn't used to offer.

Like what happened or what changed that the firm took that kind of turn?

It's more profitable, Michael.

And that was the amore was the just the numbers to compare.

It could make a lot could make a lot of money if you sell really bad things to sweet people.

And I just wasn't going to participate in that at all.

And they hadn't been doing it.

But someone came along with a pitch that was too profitable to refuse.

So the firm changed tax like that that kind of flow.

Pretty much unbelievable.

I know, but I lived it and it wasn't very fun to live through.

But Aspen wouldn't be here today if I hadn't gone through that.

It wasn't very fun though.

So what else do you know now you wish you could like go back and tell you from 10 or 15 years ago

as you were you were just getting started with Aspen?

Well, I might flip that around and say I'm glad I didn't know then what I know now

because I may not have had the guts to do it.

But for anyone thinking that they're going to break away or leave their firm and start their own.

A couple of things I think they'll be surprised by who comes along with them

and who finds them and wants to still be with them.

And they'll be surprised by who doesn't because you think you have these relationships

that don't don't follow.

And so that's a tough thing.

But you just have to look forward.

You can't you can't ever hang on the nose.

You've got to just keep pushing to the yeses.

And every day figure out another way to connect with somebody new.

So I mean, what was it that I guess at least in retrospect was surprising about the launch

that if you'd known you might not have had the guts?

Like what was worse than expected?

That's how long it takes to get your first set of clients.

Okay.

I had a lot of coffees to talk about financial planning.

And in the end, it was like, thank you for having coffee with me.

Could you suggest maybe a couple of other people

that would be great connections for me?

And I made myself do that every stinking day for months on end.

You know, as a work and mom with three kids in school, it was not easy.

It was not easy, but you have to do it.

Get out there, network, you know, build your build your connections

and eventually you get enough traction to where people start knowing

that you're not going to go away, that you're really in it for the long haul.

And how long did that take for you?

Oh my gosh.

Um, I think finally getting traction, it took till the end of 14.

Third quarter of 2014, I think we finally started having a decent amount of activity.

The SEO was turning things at that point.

The networking was starting to pay off and we really were off to the races at that point.

But it took a hot minute.

I mean, you started, I think you said you launched in 2011.

So three years.

Yeah, at the end of 2011, yeah.

It was a long three years, Michael.

Yeah, I would say that that sounds like a long time to, you know, grind it out.

One coffee talking about financial planning and who else do you know that I should be talking to at a time.

Yeah, yeah, no, it was, it was a lot.

But it laid the path though for the success that we are enjoying today.

So what advice would you give younger, like newer advisors coming into the profession today

and trying to get started?

I would say stay positive and keep the faith and just do what you can every day to try to make a new connection

because you never know where those connections are going to lead.

And life is not a straight path.

It has lots of twists and turns and just enjoy it, just enjoy the ride.

I started in commercial banking and now, you know, I'm the leader of a great financial planning firm.

Life just is not a straight line.

So as we, as we come to the end here, this is a podcast about success and just one of the themes that comes up is that that word success means very different things to different people.

And so you, you've been on this wonderful path of building this very successful business.

You're, I think it's 670 million on path to cross a billion in the next few years so that the business seems to be in a wonderful place.

How do you define success for yourself at this point?

I'm going to know that I've been successful when I get asked and fully transitioned over to the next generation and see it even go to the third generation.

That's going to be success to me.

Seeing the business that continues to live, live on beyond your, your founding and your involvement.

Yes, I feel like I've been a fairly good mentor to our next gen and I'm excited for them. I think they are going to do great things and I can't wait to watch.

What comes as success to you is you free, free up all this time and go through your own transition.

Is there a personal success layer to this beyond the business?

Well, I think in that realm, being able to be more present for my family because I really, I've tried my best to be present, but it's really difficult when you're building a business and raising a family and being married.

So success to me is being able to have time with my husband and more time with my children, even though they're all grown now and have experiences with them.

I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Helen, for joining us on the Financial Advisor Success Podcast.

I've enjoyed our visit so much, Michael. Thank you. Likewise, thank you.

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