Episode 145 - Power to the Plebs

We've all been waiting for YEARS for this… more power to the plebs! Yes, you heard us correctly. For once, the patricians will not get exactly what they want.

Episode 145 – Power to the Plebs

Icilii, Icilii, Icilii

It is 409 BCE and another exciting year in the conflict of the orders (allegedly). The plebeians were enraged when elections were held for consuls instead of military tribunes with consular power.

The plebeians decided to channel the advice of the First Wives Club. Don't get mad, get everything! Denied the chance to elect their hero from the previous year, the plebeians rallied together and secured THREE plebeian quaestorship.

The quaestorship had technically been open to plebeians since 420 BCE. However, it took a decade for the plebeians to finally take the plunge. They were assisted by several tribunes of the plebs from the Icilii family. The Icilii often appear when something important happens for plebeian rights. Don't you just love the grand narrative of Roman history?

Hungry for more, the plebeians decided to push for elections of military tribunes with consular elections. They were determined to elect a plebeian candidate in 408 BCE.

The patricians were already aghast at the prospect of plebeian quaestors, so they were hardly going to let that happen.

Once again, we find ourselves in a stalemate, with neither the patricians or the plebeians willing to back down.

Join us for another action-packed episode!

Things to Look Out For:

• Tribune of the plebs in trench coats and sunglasses
• Way too many Icilii running around Rome
• Dr Rad’s phone alarm going off and her not hearing it because, you know, she’s deaf. Really sorry about that, guys!
• Patricians fantasising about world apocalypse
• More military action at the mysterious Carventum

Need to catch up on 411 and 410 BCE? Check out Episode 144 – Where in the World is Carventum?

Our Players 409 BCE

Consuls

Tribune of the Plebs

• (L.?) Icilius
• ? Icilius
• ? Icilius

Quaestors

• P. Aelius
• K. Fabius Ambustus (Pat.)
• P. Papius
• Q. Silius

Our Sources

Dr G reads the Fasti Capitolini and Diodorus Siculus 13.80.1.

Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.54-55.

Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)

Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)

Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 

Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN 978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID 239349186.

Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman. Sound effects courtesy of BBC, Pixabay and Fesliyan Studios.

Automated Transcript.

Courtesy of Otter AI.

Dr Rad  00:12

Welcome to the partial historians. We explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad. And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the Hello, and welcome to another episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad,.

Dr G  01:04

and I am your other host, Dr. G.  Hey,

Dr Rad  01:08

Hey, Dr. G. Welcome to a history of Rome that's being told in excruciatingly painful detail,

Dr G  01:17

Just as the Romans would have liked it, I think.

Dr Rad  01:19

Exactly. I mean, we're just fulfilling their wishes.

Dr G  01:22

Yeah. Their fame lives on as long as we talk about them.

Dr Rad  01:26

That is correct. So Dr G, last episode we were dealing with 410 BC. Today we're going to be dealing with 409, it all makes chronological sense.

Dr G  01:40

Yeah, it looks so far. So good. I do not quibble at all with that logic. And 410 was an interesting year because we got introduced to a new location that we hadn't heard of before. Called Carventum. Ah, yes, we still aren't entirely sure where it is, the mystery remains. But we do think it might be part of a important strategic location that sort of forms the edge of Roman territory and Hernitian territory. And obviously, the Volscians and the Aequians want to get their little dirty paws all over it.

Dr Rad  02:19

Like they do everything.  Indeed,

Dr G  02:22

Indeed, that's just the way those guys

Dr Rad  02:24

Oh, I know, don't they knew that Rome is destined to be the superpower in this corner of the world.

Dr G  02:29

Not yet. Not yet.

02:33

So what we had last time was some classic conflict of the order stuff, I think, hmm, yeah. So we had our command commander called Valerius, who ended up being quite an unpopular, man.

02:51

Wow, how so? Is it even possible for Roman to become unpopular?

Dr Rad  02:56

Well, he was so harsh, I think after the conflict that had happened between the patricians like himself and the representative of the people, the tribune of the plebs, Menenius, that he kind of alienated them just just that much. They didn't like him at all. And they really liked Menenius. Yes, well, that's the kind of the way it goes at the moment, isn't it? There's a lot of backwards and forwards with this kind of class political struggle, which is really evidence as far as we're concerned, I think the nature of our annalistic sources, Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, whenever if ever he put us back into the scene, really trying to figure out what it meant to be a Roman in this very early period of history, where they don't have a lot of good written accent evidence from the time in question. Exactly. So basically, we ended up with this situation where because Valerius had made himself so unpopular, and Menenius, the tribune of the plebs looked even better by comparison, that the patricians were incredibly nervous because they were sure that if they went with elections for military tributes with consular power, that Menenius would end up being the first plebeian to actually get elected to this office, which is technically open to anyone.

Dr G  04:26

Quelle horreur, we cannot possibly have a plebeian and charged around here. I

Dr Rad  04:33

 It simply cannot be tolerated, it will not be tolerated, and therefore we're going to have concealer elections and concealer elections alone.  Well,

Dr G  04:41

Well, this all makes sense for what comes up in 409 BCE.

Dr Rad  04:46

It does I think it might be time to dive in

Dr G  05:06

It is 409 BC A exciting time in Romans history as is every year I have to say. And I have some excellent news for you, Dr. Rad. Oh my god. Am I about to fall off my chair? Have you rediscovered Dionysius of Halicarnassus  Oh sadly no. But the Fasti Capitolini is back, baby.

Dr Rad  05:30

Well, I'm glad you have something.

Dr G  05:33

Literally two names

Dr Rad  05:37

it's better than a big fat nothing you bring into these episodes. Oh,

Dr G  05:42

yeah, like a historian is only as good as their material. You

Dr Rad  05:46

always do your research.

Dr G  05:48

I try but it's hard to cobble together things for me at the moment.  Yeah, Yeah, to be honest, I think I have the easier deal, actually having something to read. Oh, Look, you bring the narrative and I give you a whole bunch of names. And I don't know what happens to any of them. And that I think is fine. That is how we're sharing the load right now. Well, there

Dr Rad  06:06

certainly are a whole bunch of names for the year for now. So why don't you tell us who they are.

Dr G  06:12

I show we have two consuls, which is very much in keeping with that fear in 410. About anybody coming into position as military tribune with consular power. You can solve that by just having consuls. So we have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. We have had him in our mix before he was a military tribune with consular power in 414 BCE. And we also have Lucius Furius. Medullinus. I know ,a Furius back in the mix. One of our favourite genses right now. Now he was previously consul in 413. And he is in the middle of an upwards career trajectory. He doesn't know it. But foreshadowing we

Dr Rad  07:01

do think

Dr G  07:05

we certainly do. Thanks a lot.

Dr Rad  07:09

It looks like yes, we

Dr G  07:11

are. And we've also got in addition to the consuls, we've got three possible tribune of the plebs. And to make things even more interesting on this front, every single name that I have attached to the role of tribune of the plebs is an Icilius. At least three named possibly different. Icilii in the tribune of the plebs mix.

Dr Rad  07:37

Okay, hilarious. But it does make sense because if we're ramping up the conflict of the oddest narrative, this duel between the patricians and the plebeians, who better to have in office than an Icilii?

Dr G  07:53

it does present us with some problem so. So the tribune of the plebs position it's been talked about in previous years, we've definitely talked about it where it seems like our sources are written sources are assuming that there's already 10 of these characters. Yeah. We don't have any good evidence to establish that the body of the tribune of the plebs was that large this early inroads history.

Dr Rad  08:21

How are you? He's just had a very large dinner.

Dr G  08:25

What do you mean this 10 of him? Just one man, where are you very large coat. So we've got three possible Icilii as tribune of the plebs, no other group is named, but that would be a substantial faction within the tribune of the plebs, if they were a group of 10.

Dr Rad  08:43

It is. But as we've highlighted, this is a family that has a very strong association with the office of the tribune of the plebs, they often pop up just when things get dramatic,

Dr G  08:53

They do. And this gives you a sense that maybe something dramatic might be on the horizon this year as well. So I guess we'll see motion. If you times your Icilius by three, do you get three amounts of drama three times, I don't know, I guess we'll find out together. The other group that I have names for quaestors.

Dr Rad  09:15

you might say this.

Dr G  09:18

And in lieu of the fact that I have very little actual evidence to provide you. What I've done is I've gone through the names of the quaestors to try and sort of place them in the broader scheme of like, what might be going on in Rome, with Roman families.

Dr Rad  09:34

I always love when you do this, because as you know, anything to do with Latin, including names is not my strong point.

Dr G  09:42

And Look, I don't think it's really mine either. But I do enjoy sort of building a picture for myself, like where do all these characters fit? Yeah, because the names often end up sounding a little bit samey because the names all have the same kind of endings. And then, after a while, you're like I'm sure I've heard this name before. But is it a different guy? So for just for like the sake of like trying to keep everybody straight in my head, I enjoy sort of delving into the family side of things. Absolutely. So our first quaestor is Publius Aelius. Now I Aelius is known as a plebeian gens

Dr Rad  10:24

I'm not going to give too much away, I'm just gonna react calmly.

Dr G  10:28

Calmly, calmly. And they do have a recorded history from around about this period. So the fourth century BCE, so jumping head just a few years into the next century, and all the way through into the late imperial period. So this is a family that has real longevity in terms of their history and legacy across generations. Now, we might be getting this name now, because of the associations the family takes on in the late Republic, okay. Now, I don't know, I like I'm just, I'm talking really slowly because I'm waiting for you to be like, I'll jump in and tell you what's going on.

Dr Rad  11:13

I'm not gonna jump in at any point. I'm just gonna let you talk through all of these names and shock you.

Dr G  11:19

Okay, okay. I'll prepare myself for the shock. Okay. So we have some figures, like Quintus Aelius Tubero, and this is heading into the this late Republican period who's the nephew of Scipio Aemilianus. And he's infamous or famous depending on which side of politics you're on  as an anti Gracchan figure. So somebody who's like on the conservative side of politics, yeah, the Gracchi a very progressive and not everybody's into that. And then there's also a Quintus Aelius Tubero, same night name different guy. Yeah, who is a jurist and historian. And he wrote a 14 book Roman history from the foundation of Rome to the Punic Wars

Dr Rad  12:12

Suspicous.

Dr G  12:15

Well, this is really interesting, because we think that this Aelius Tubero is a common source for Livy and Dionysius of Halicarnassus. Aelius Tubero himself. Those books are no longer extant. Yeah, so anybody if you find a manuscript hiding in a monastery, you get in touch, yeah, get in touch. We'd be very excited historians everywhere would be very excited to find ideas to grow, but we think he's utilised by both. So there's a sense in which living and Dionysius are being influenced by an Aelius in their own writing. And so they probably have particular ideas about what Aelius' are like in terms of their character and disposition. Okay, we move on our second quaestor is Kaeso Fabius Ambustus. Definitely a patrician, a fabulous Fabii. Yeah. And likely related to Quintus Fabius Ambustus, Vibulanus who was the consul of 412,

Dr Rad  13:19

I was gonna say this, this name feels like more familiar territory.

Dr G  13:24

Yeah, yeah. And I think the expectation is that you would assume that the quaestor was would be patrician at this point. So it is quite interesting that we do get a mix of names that seem to suggest that both patricians and plebeians were in the quaestorship this early on.

Dr Rad  13:42

I'm not gonna give in I'm gonna say

Dr G  13:46

just keep putting a little hoping that your bite. Okay, all right. Now third quaestor is Publius Papius. Now, this gens, the Papius gens is an italic gens. And you might think to yourself, yeah, but surely all genses are Italic genses us we're talking about the Romans here. But when we're talking about italic peoples, we're generally talking about people beyond the Romans. Because we tend we tend to classify the Romans as their own thing, even though they're clearly part of the broader italic community. But the Papius gens has connections to the Samnites and Oscan speakers. So this is thinking about the sort of the hilly region to the east of Rome, but also South heading towards compania in the same sort of mountainous region. This is really the Oscan speaker kind of territory, they'ee plebeian, considered to be plebeian. And then we also see the Papii family go on to hold positions of tribune of the plebs. So there's some spoilers for you, dear listeners, coming up in a podcast near you, but the Samnites I think we We've mentioned them maybe just an episode or so ago, well, they

Dr Rad  15:04

are going to become a regular feature this time. Now

Dr G  15:08

that they've sort of entered in to being mentioned, they're going to continue to be mentioned, they are going to grow to be quite important to the way the Romans understand themselves. And

Dr Rad  15:20

they must be crushed up to G. Let me make that clear, they must be crushed,

Dr G  15:25

we may have a series of conflicts known as the Samnite wars coming your way soon, in the next century.

Dr Rad  15:32

It does make sense we have talked about the fact that they are possibly on the move a bit in this time period, that there's a bit bit more of them coming into rooms or bet in this time period, which is I think, the kind of stuff that's been coming up so far more complex. Yeah.

Dr G  15:50

And I think this gives us a sense that Rome and its influence is not just constrained to Latin speakers, this idea of the foundation of the city, which although we might think of it as being quite mythic, this idea of Rome as a place of asylum, it does seem to be the case that people are moving around, bringing their family history with them retaining their identity, and then also becoming integrated into a Roman social mindset and then gaining political currency within Rome. Yeah. So Rome itself has this history of cosmopolitanism that stems back really quite early into its history. Yes, it's not. So it might help explain some of the things that happen with Roman citizenship later on. Absolutely. Our last quaestor Quintus Silius. Though the temptation to pronounce it as Silius is quite high,

Dr Rad  16:48

I was gonna say, I'm disappointed in you, you're not the co host I thought you were.

Dr G  16:54

really missing all my opportunities. Quintus Silius, as we shall call him. Silius is a plebeian gens  Well, of course, he's Silius.  This is how the patricians keep you down.

Dr Rad  17:12

What's in a name? I'll tell you what's in it.

Dr G  17:15

It's ridiculous. I tell you, he's very silly. And I refuse to call him anything else. We're not really sure about this guy. I put it to you that Livy seems to be our key source here. And

Dr Rad  17:29

I think I've been proving that fairly emphatically.

Dr G  17:35

I'm agreeing with your Dr Rad. That was me agreeing with you. I think I think maybe we're misleading each other. So the trouble with this is that the Silius gens seems to only really come into prominence in the first century BCE, which is a good 300 400 years away from where we are now. And the question might be asked, What the hell is a Silius doing this early?

Dr Rad  18:11

I'll tell you, he's got late Republican ancestors, and I'm like, quick, put my family like way back as an ancestor somewhere,

Dr G  18:21

please. I mean, the phrase insert an ancestor does, it leads me down dark paths, but I'm not gonna mention what I'm visualising.

Dr Rad  18:30

Romans are always open for that Kind of foreplay.

Dr G  18:37

Well, that is all that I have on the names. I've got other things to talk about. But I think I should defer to you and what is actually going on in this year with any of these people. Can you help me now? I

Dr Rad  18:48

think I set this up really well. And I'm loving the family details here confirms a lot, I think. Excellent. All right. So here we are. We've got consuls being elected. Now Livy tells me that never before have the plebeians been so upset that they were not allowed to elect military tribunes, which implies that the patricians were correct to suspect that this was going to be the year when they were finally angry enough to go for a plebeian candidate over a patrician candidate. If that kind of thing were allowed. So the audience therefore, act out that they have to share their frustration in some way. And the way that they do this strategy is that for the first time, they elect plebeians to the quaestorship we been talking about the conflict of the orders for so long. Finally, finally, allegedly, and probably mistakenly we have plebeians in the quaestorship. Oh,

Dr G  20:03

wow. Okay. I mean, I was just so confused. I was like, What are these plebeians during it here? Everybody knows this is not for them.

Dr Rad  20:11

Yeah, you are correct. You are correct that there was one token patrician was elected alongside little bands. That must have been a comfortable election for him.

Dr G  20:23

Every time he goes into the room to sit down with the other quaestors, he's like, Man, this is a travesty.

Dr Rad  20:29

Exactly, exactly. And Livy does note that it is simply crazy that these three Plebeians Silius, I will adhere to your superior Latin. Aelius and Pupius, Papius is whatever his name is.

Dr G  20:48

Papius, I'm going with

Dr Rad  20:49

it. It does sound wrong to say Pupius. A lot of fun. It was crazy that they were selected over the years from and I quote, distinguished families, which is code of course for patrician family. Yes.

Dr G  21:08

How cruel. Yeah, well, when you put in some names in here, I can see that.

Dr Rad  21:16

Now Livy, therefore had to investigate how it was that the three men finally came to be elected. And he has uncovered that it was indeed the Icilii who were behind the whole plan. They were the men who motivated the plebeians to vote in this insane fashion. Wow.

Dr G  21:39

Okay, so this might help explain. We don't have a complete list of tribune of the plebs. But the idea that there are many Icilii swaying the situation. It's like a political coup is

Dr Rad  21:52

going on. I know. Well, as as we know, a couple of years ago, we were talking about an Icilius, who got elected to be tribune of the plebs, and he was pushing what may have been a very ambitious agenda. But It got cut short, because there was an outbreak of illness, and therefore he couldn't really do anything. He was stymied, Dr. G. Hmm. And now however, when everyone's Well, bouncing around being angry with the patricians, now is the time for them to revisit their radical programme on equal rights for all.

Dr G  22:33

Look, I wish them all the best. I don't think I don't think the patricians are gonna enjoy this at all, or let them get away with it for very long,

Dr Rad  22:43

man not enjoying this. So the Icilius as we know, as a family, one of their character traits, hatred of patricians

Dr G  22:53

classic

Dr Rad  22:55

Passed down in mother's milk. Now the reason the reason why there is confusion, as you say is that Livy's Does explicitly say that there were three men from this particular gens who are elected so that's why I guess we have the question marks and Broughton where it's like is it Icilius, Icilius, Icilius?

Dr G  23:15

that's what I've got one of them is potentially Lucius, question mark, Icilius. And the others are just question mark, Icilius.

Dr Rad  23:22

No one who is rich should Look into a mirror and say, Icilius, Icilius, Icilius three times because it could get dangerous in there.

Dr G  23:30

You will summon the quest for equal rights

Dr Rad  23:34

and a more equitable world. So the Icilii I, I presume all of them, apparently made a lot of big promises about what would happen if plebeians could be elected. And the plebeians being stupid, just ate all of this up, as they always do, according to Livy. Now, I questioned this account, because if the plebeians did just lap up whatever promises were sent their way by Tribunes of the plebs, and you know weren't at all critical of it and all that kind of stuff, then surely we would have actually had this happen in quite some time ago because they would have elected people a to be quaestors, but be to be military tribunes with consular power, that would just make sense. So I think Livy's Being a douchebag Dr. G.

Dr G  24:28

Well, I'm glad that that came from you this time. Because I yeah, this. This is tricky. I mean, why the quaestorship instead of the military tribune with consular power. Like I can see that ultimately, you would want people in all of the positions, those positions to be all available to people regardless of their family background if they can accrue the support for their election, which would include definitely rich plebeians. families who can spend the money to Canvas and put together a kind of election sort of promotion of themselves. But the quaestorship is at this stage very much we think attached to the Treasury. Yeah. And the idea that the politicians would let this out of their sort of hands, I think is a little bit questionable. Like are you going to let the plebeians get their hands on the money?

Dr Rad  25:30

Well, this is where I think you see Livy's or in time period, perhaps coming in and I think you'll see what I mean in a moment, certain, the way that the Icilii had persuaded the plebeians, I think to elect one is that they basically said, Look, there's three of us serving as tribunes. And we're not going to lift a god damn finger, unless you people finally vote plebeian into office now, I'm just going to highlight once more, that doesn't sound like a bunch of crazy promises. To me. It sounds like a hostage situation.

Dr G  26:04

Sounds a bit like a threat.

Dr Rad  26:08

Yeah, that's how they really, I think, got the plebeians over the line and got the plebeians to elect someone from their own class. I hate using that word to describe the bands. But

Dr G  26:21

I think this reflects a big deal of our issue with this whole period of Rome's history, which is we don't understand how the society is structured, necessarily, except that we know that some families are more prominent than other families. But the idea that there is a sort of a class unity doesn't seem to be borne out by our evidence, like Livy and Dionysius have been trying to promote this idea of the class struggle, because clearly the way that class works in the late Republic, it's pretty intense. Yeah. But the way that things are working here, we get the suggestion in most of our written sources that there is this struggle happening, which is failing to manifest as proper struggle, because the plebeians and I'm using my flesh rabbits, that plebeians fail consistently, to vote for their class. Exactly. So I think this leaves us with a situation where maybe class isn't the best way to read any of this. And what Livy and Dionysus are doing is trying to shoehorn these things into a narrative. And I think then the further trouble if we're looking even like more 1000s of years ahead, is that then we get a scholarship from the modern period that tries to read all of this within a Marxist lens as well, because Marxism is very much about class struggle. Sure. So that's a whole nother layer of sort of class confusion, if you like, because people seem to be interested in their families getting ahead. Absolutely. It's about it's about their gens. And what we might be seeing is the real struggle that some genses, gentes in the Latin but I always say genses, because I like it. Some genses is having one accruing the sort of leverage that they need in terms of popular support in order to get elected in the first place.

Dr Rad  28:30

Absolutely. Yeah. And it's been a while since we've talked about this, I think but there certainly has been times when we've been talking about consul, I think particularly so it really has been a while but I remember there being some names that we mentioned, for Consular positions. And there was definitely some question marks about whether they were actually patrician family names. Hmm, yes, yeah. And we talked about that. So go back and listen to it because I'm not gonna do it now. If obedience, I feeling pretty chuffed. They feel like they've really accomplished a lot, even though they haven't elected everybody in to the premier position in the state at this point in time. No military Tribune with consular power has been pulled in officially, they still feel like they've won Dr. G. They've won the larger battle here.

Dr G  29:26

They're chipping away at the seats of power. They'll get there just your weight yet

Dr Rad  29:31

and leave you kind of scuffs at this at this point in time because he says, pathetic. Were they really considering what a classic could do? They have a pretty limited office. Clearly, these fools were thinking that the quest to ship was some sort of stepping stone to having plebeians as consuls and getting their own triumphs.

Dr G  29:56

Oh, Livy's Yeah, we're gonna have a cursus honoroum emerge, It's just not that bad.

Dr Rad  30:01

I know I will do this is where I feel like maybe some of the light Republican vibes are kind of coming through in that, oh, maybe he generally does know more than we do. And he's just not told us very clearly exactly what a quest entails at this point in time. Like, I do understand that there are connections with money. But I do also understand that given the way that Livy's talked about it, it does seem to be kind of a bureaucrat. Yeah,

Dr G  30:28

yeah. And I guess my question is, as well, and I don't have a good answer to this right now. But the quaestorship, generally, if we're thinking about it in terms of like, funds, and managing sort of the Fiscus, and things like that, which it becomes known as, maybe that's not exactly what it's doing at this point in time. But even so, they are somebody who is likely attached, either in a military capacity going around with legions, or maybe attached to the consulship. And why is there four of them right now, when we only have two consuls? So there's, what do we not know there's a bunch of missing information here. As far as I'm concerned. I was like, Do we have some praetors that they're attached to, but when they're not being mentioned? What is it exactly that Christ was doing right now? I'll tell you, we really need four of them.

Dr Rad  31:26

They're saving patricians from a lot of red tape. I think we've established that family clearly. Yes,

Dr G  31:32

the paperwork side of things. Yeah. And how much paperwork could there be? The Romans, they love paperwork.

Dr Rad  31:39

So now we get to my favourite part of the story. The patricians are furious. I mean, it's bad enough that the plebeians were theoretically allowed to be elected. But now they actually have to share the office of quaestor in reality? disgusting

Dr G  32:00

horrifying. Yeah,

Dr Rad  32:02

so now the patricians are feeling like it would actually be immoral for them to even have children, because their children would have to witness the horror, the horror of seeing dirty little plebeians taking their rightful place in the world. I mean, how can a parent actually subject their child to seeing oh my god, like the office of quaestor being occupied by a plebeian, you know, my God

Dr G  32:35

I would rather bear witness to this like this is gonna take everything

Dr Rad  32:43

that you do they get to take everything they get to take a position before you know it like, what are patricians gonna have left? I mean, all they will have left are the sacrifices, Dr. G the sacrifices?!

Dr G  32:55

Guys, guys, I'm gonna have to sell my Ferrari there's no point trying to impress the young patrician ladies anymore.

Dr Rad  33:02

I know I'm not gonna live in a big batch it I think I get very upset. But all they're gonna have is their roles as the salii and the flamens on behalf of the people, which as you would know better than most people. priesthood positions, they

Dr G  33:28

are very important because you must keep your relationship with the gods sound. But it's going to be a problem for the patricians if they do not reproduce.

Dr Rad  33:38

Well, I mean, I guess it's a bit like how some people feel about having children in a climate emergency such as we live in right now. That's how the patricians literally see it as being the end of the world whereas we actually are contemplating the end of the world.

Dr G  33:58

Yeah, it is tragic. Any action you can take the listeners to help preserve our beautiful home. We trust that you will take it Yeah.

Dr Rad  34:06

Well, the patricians are prepared to take action, Dr G.

Dr G  34:10

Let us take the patrician example as our model of excellence.

Dr Rad  34:14

Yep. So anyway, so both the plebeians and patricians are therefore in a state of complete emotional overload, the pavilions are on a super high, because they are just so frickin thrilled that they're plebeians in office. And they do they do indeed see this as we finally pop that cherry, take that step. This is just gonna be a sign of greater things to come that they are, yeah,

Dr G  34:38

I can just imagine the plebeian quaestors being like, Guys, I've seen money for the first time. It's incredible.

Dr Rad  34:45

Yeah, flying high. The patrician see this as complete and utter Doom, the beginning of the end. There's no other way of saying it. It

Dr G  34:55

is the end of times. It's been great while we've been here, but it's all Ever now 100 years is all we had? Yeah.

Dr Rad  35:03

So this leads to another classic conflicts, which is very similar to the one we had the year before. Where the patricians are therefore, absolutely 100% determined that there are going to be consular elections held  Fair enough. You gotta you gotta keep the main power in the patrician hands. This is dire times. Exactly. I mean, it's the only way that they're going to be able to continue to have sex and have children clearly. The Achillea on the other hand, are absolutely determined that it's going to be military tribute and whose conceal the power, because they do think that this is going to be the time that Kobe and is going to get elected into that office.

Dr G  35:42

We're so close guys, we've got them into the quaestorship. We're all over the tribune of the plebs. Next up the top job.

Dr Rad  35:50

Exactly. Yeah. However, as luck would have it, Dr G, the Aequians and the Volscians enter our story.

Dr G  36:02

So okay, the Aequians and the Volsci.

Dr Rad  36:05

All right. Yes. Yes.

Dr G  36:06

Can I pause us here just to give us a sense of like, where we are in the geography of

Dr Rad  36:12

things. Absolutely. Tell me San Diego, where are we?

Dr G  36:15

I will put up my little hat. Yeah, yeah. So the Aequians thought to be the, to the east of Rome. So this is classic near where this Carventum location is we're not really quite sure. The Volscians are to the south east. And the Hernicians are kind of wedged into the in between those two. Yeah. And that's Rome's ally. So that's great. Yeah the Herncians are one of these Oscan speaking peoples and so while the Volscians Yeah, the Aequians though, maybe a slightly different language group. We then have the Latin peoples in general, which includes the Romans, yeah. And they're kind of demarcated by the Tiber River, which cuts sort of East West, and the Arnio tributary, which is a bit of a north south tributary River. Now the Etruscans are the neighbours to the north, anything above the Tiber. We've also got the Faliscans who have come up a little bit so far there to the north and northeast, and thought to be connected to the Etruscans. We've also got likewise a little bit further out the sabae finds also to the northeast, but beyond the fullest skins. And everything sort of South East beyond the fall skins is also considered to be Oscan speaking. So Rome is kind of surrounded by a whole bunch of different people who could cause them problems. And the Aequians Oh, Volscians are definitely the closest in the east and the south east that are causing problems at the moment.

Dr Rad  37:53

Definitely. Yeah. So they cause problems specifically in this year by attacking the territory of the Latins and the Hernicians How dare they? I know. So Rome's allies, clearly, therefore, the council's had to raise an army and the Senate gives the order, go and conduct the levy. Now, I think you probably know where I'm going with this story. You'd be

Dr G  38:19

surprised that I might not.

Dr Rad  38:22

Well, the tribune of the plebs fight the levee, because, of course, that's their, that's their way of resisting and trying to, you know, get what they want, which is elections for military champions with consular power. So they are giving it everything they have, and they are thrilled, actually, that external conflict has arisen, and therefore, once again, that petitions need something from them, and they can withhold it until they get what they want. I think they would very much understand the tactic of like using sex as a weapon. It's well,

Dr G  38:59

you got to use what you got. And when you're the tribune of the plebs resistance is key resisting that levy is a powerful move. Yeah.

Dr Rad  39:08

So Livy's very specific that all three of the Icilii tribunes getting involved here. The plebeians see them as the most noble family that they have on their side. He's like, I mean, they may as well almost be patrician which is like saying a lot as far as the plebeians are concerned, because they're just that elite.

Dr G  39:30

Wow, that's almost offensive. How dare they?

Dr Rad  39:33

Yeah. Now again, this is my second favourite part strategy. Two of the Icilian tribune of the plebs take on the job of essentially tailing the consul around room. Cue the Pink Panther music. They get their sunglasses on. They've got their trench coats on, they've got their slouch hats.

Dr G  39:57

I love it. So because the contents will be going around presumably with some lictors and then trailing a little bit further behind.

Dr Rad  40:05

I guess that makes it makes it easier and you know, it's easier to hide in a crowd. It is. Now the third Icilii, I, you might be wondering, what is he up to? Why is he not in a trench coat? Well, his job is to stir up the plebeians. So making sure that he's, I suppose, keeping their emotions high over these sorts of issues, you know, pushing them to demand what is theirs, and to act in a way that's going to support what they're trying to enact here.

Dr G  40:38

Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah. Good to have somebody whipping up that crowd.

Dr Rad  40:42

Exactly. Yeah. So he's, he's like crowd control while the others are trying to

Dr G  40:46

blend in. Is he wearing a trench coat just to keep, like up with the brothers. You know,

Dr Rad  40:52

I know. I feel like he must have been in this cabinet just in case. Maybe they maybe they switch out. Alright, so the consuls are therefore prevented from raising the levy. And the tribunes are unable to get what they want, which is the election of the military Tribune, because nobody is going to give because that's just how the conflict of the orders works

Dr G  41:16

beginning to sound like a terrible stalemate while the enemy inches ever closer.

Dr Rad  41:21

Oh, tell me about it. It was looking like the plebeians were going to get what they wanted. But then dramatic news bulletin on the six o'clock news,

Dr G  41:36

breaking news, breaking news we have incoming from Rome. We've got somebody on the street, throwing to our local reporter now. The Aequians

Dr Rad  41:45

have attacked the Roman garrison left behind at the citadel of Carventum When the men there had left to raid even though it was proven before that that was a dumb idea, because that's how they got Carventum in the first place. Oh, no. That's few men who have been left behind on guard have been killed, I repeat have been killed. And it has been recaptured by the Aequians. That's right. Carventum has been lost. I repeat, Carventum has fallen. Carventum has fallen. We don't know where it is. But it's

Dr G  42:16

disappeared back behind. It's in its cloud of invisibility.

Dr Rad  42:20

Yeah. Now, some more Roman soldiers had died in this battle. Because of course, when they saw the Aequians taking it back, they'd be like, Hold it right there. Drop it, we drop that citadel. But unfortunately, there weren't enough of them. I guess they were pretty scattered. If they were, you know, at raiding, and they were maybe coming back in bits and pieces and that sort of thing. So they were killed trying to recapture the Citadel or keep a hold of it. There were others out in the field, who apparently were randomly killed and that sort of thing. This narrative is a little bit confusing, I suppose. But I think the bottom line is that the Romans had perhaps left this mostly unattended, and they were killed, because they were trying to get back in. It doesn't really make sense, I suppose.

Dr G  43:08

Yeah, it sounds like they maybe weren't on high military alert. So they were just doing the sorts of things that you do when you're a military that has to hold somewhere. But you don't have like a standing order to be in defence where you're like, well, we need to go out foraging and we need to do some field work. We've got to eat and, you know, you end up doing other jobs. And people like, oh, well, we could fix this place up if we just had a nicer log of wood. And we could prop it over here. Like let's do some renovations.

Dr Rad  43:37

You know? Yeah. And if you're in for the long haul, yeah, actually, yeah. And so people

Dr G  43:41

get distracted, and maybe they're they got caught unawares, and they weren't at all ready. And if you're not in the Citadel, when the Citadel gets attacked, that's a huge problem, because that's a massive defensive structure. And to get back into it, when it's being attacked already from the exterior, your chances of surviving aren't great.

Dr Rad  44:04

Yeah, absolutely. So the champions of the playoffs with this news backed bleeded stop opposing the levy. You've got to we're in a really bad situation right now. But they stand strong Dr G, they valiantly refuse and they say, You know what? We could like give two hoots about the danger that the state is in and we don't care if everybody hates us. This is our job. And we're not budging. This is exactly what you always do. And we always give in because it's so dangerous out there. But not this time.

Dr G  44:42

Oh, this is a brazen position. How is this gonna work out?

Dr Rad  44:46

Well, I'll tell you how it works out. It freakin works. They win. Yeah.

Dr G  44:51

That was unexpected. And

Dr Rad  44:54

quick, I know, but I couldn't really string out any fear that they win, because there's no other option here I guess. So it's to say added that the next year there's going to be military treatments with consular power being elected on condition. This is very important read the fine print. Okay, scroll down. Check it. No one is allowed to run for military tribune with consular power for 408, who had been tribune of the particular year. And no tribune of the plebs could be reelected the next year. So the patricians are like right, we want your one none of you Icilii, I are allowed to serve as tribune of the plebs in 408. And none of you are allowed to stand for this office. That's the compromise.

Dr G  45:45

That's a pretty big concession, I think from the patricians in it, which gives a sense of just how strong the support for the Icilii has been across the sort of years so far.

Dr Rad  46:00

Absolutely. The Senate 100% aiming to get this family out of play politically, they want them gone. And they want the people to hate them. They are 100% convinced that this family have the consulship in their sights, you know, they want to be like the first for the and family to hold the consulship like some kind of ridiculous reward for being giant pains in the ass.

Dr G  46:30

Well, that would make them very similar to the patricians would not

Dr Rad  46:34

write like anything. They should see the similarity. Yeah, because we're in this together. These are all kinds of people. Yeah. So as a result, this means that the levy can finally proceed, because everybody is happy with this. Yeah, the Icilii are like, check! Well, you will take that, and they are getting getting ready for war. Everyone is on board. Now, there's a little bit of doubt about exactly how the campaign plays out. Livy is unsure if both of the consuls are sent to Carventum, or whether one is sent out and one remains in Rome to run elections. Live. He notes that he has different accounts in his sources. Does he go into further detail? No, he does not.

Dr G  47:18

Livy's So tantalising.

Dr Rad  47:21

Yeah, levy can only be certain that the Romans did not win back the Citadel at Carventum, but instead had to hang out there in a very long siege, which went No. Oh, okay.

Dr G  47:34

So yeah, they they got the army out there. And it was a bit of a stalemate in the end. Yeah.

Dr Rad  47:40

Okay. Instead, the Romans decided that they're going to recapture Verrugo, which is a Volscian, in the Volscian. area, again, just to irritate their enemy.

Dr G  47:53

Yeah, if if we can't have convinced them back then read definitely taking Verrugo. Yeah.

Dr Rad  47:59

And this is a huge blow apparently to the Volscians in the Aequians. Because when they take Verrugo, they get a lot of bootay. Oh,

Dr G  48:08

interesting. Okay, so that's where the Volscians had taken it all out of Carventum. And sounds like maybe they just stored it in Verrugo. Okay, well, okay, so it's not as clever as it previously seemed that there was no booty to be had with the original taking of Carventum. So Verrugo is the is the place that came up for us in 423. And the moment that Sempronius Atratinus lost a battle against the Volscians, and when the day was saved by the plebeian decurion, Sextus, Tempanius. Who could forget

Dr Rad  48:47

Yeah, I did but.

Dr G  48:51

But this has changed hands a number of times now because it was recon reconquered by the Volscii in 422. And now the Romans have just taken it back again. 409. So this particular location seems to be quite sought after now that people have started attacking it. And it's just sort of going either way, depending on what's going on.

Dr Rad  49:16

I think this is my hot tip. If you do time travel, dear listeners back to this time period, because clearly, why wouldn't you it's a delightful time to be alive. Do not choose Verrugo as your place of residence. I suspect it's probably pretty unpleasant. Well,

Dr G  49:31

and also like it doesn't sound like a great place like Verrugo rolls off the tongue badly, I think. I mean, it doesn't feel like it doesn't conjure great things for me. Yeah.

Dr Rad  49:42

And that's going to be people's main concern and this constant warfare. How it rolls off the tongue

Dr G  49:48

Exactly. Like it doesn't sound like a holiday town.

Dr Rad  49:51

Yeah, like when you were screaming, oh, my God. Take it again and my children have just been massacred in the streets. You're gonna be concerned that it doesn't roll off the tongue easily.

Dr G  50:01

Wow. You know, everybody has their preferences. That's all I can say.

Dr Rad  50:07

All right, well, at least it's not Crustumerium.

Dr G  50:10

Crustumerium also a classic. I love the

Dr Rad  50:13

disease of a town to live. And so that's all I have for this year, Dr. G. But I think you'll agree. What a year.

Dr G  50:22

is actually ended up being a far more significant year than I suspected it was going to be with this transition of the plebeians into the quaestorship, which was not expected at all. Now, before we get into the partial pick, I just want to give you a sense of the broader world politics right now. via a detour into Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad  50:48

Ooh, the man who sometimes gets the names of the consuls, correct?

Dr G  50:53

Yeah. So Carthage is having a bit of a situation with Sicily. And yes, we have talks about this. Yeah. So this has been going on for a few years now. Yeah. And ultimately, the Carthaginians want to take over Sicily. That's their dream. They want to run that whole island. Really strategic, it's going to be

Dr Rad  51:16

a mafia who doesn't want this?

Dr G  51:18

I know, it's a very popular spot and great in summer, so very much would recommend. Yeah, but they've elected a general Hannibal, not the Hannibal. And he has razed to the ground, a couple of cities in Sicily. So he's had some success, and we like this takeover one by one, we're going to raise the cities and just move across this island. But then he's getting on in age as well. It's Hannibal character. And he's like, Look, I think, you know, I've had a couple of good city raisings. But I feel like I'm getting to the end of my days. And he appoints another general called human icon to take over the campaign against Sicily. So, whatever is happening into the south, this is all sort of, like, background sort of contextualization for the kinds of conflicts that we're gonna see and maybe a couple of 100 years. I know right? That's all I got.

Dr Rad  52:24

Yeah, I appreciate that. The context of the wider world because sometimes I feel like I can never get out of this boot okay, that means Dr. G, that it is time for the Partial Pick. All right, thank you very much Igor for sharing your dulcet tones. Dr. G, tell us what the partial pick is all about. All

Dr G  52:53

right, we are going to evaluate Rome against some of its own standards. So there's going to be 10 Roman Golden Eagles up for grabs across five categories. So ultimately, it's going to be a mark out of 50 Roman golden eagles. Okay, so our first category is military clout.

Dr Rad  53:16

Hmm, well, it's gonna be a bit of a downer as until

Dr G  53:21

they it was a stalemate. I believe.

Dr Rad  53:25

That's true. They didn't exactly get defeated. They just gave up. They certainly didn't

Dr G  53:31

really win. Verrugo They took Verrugo. That's true.

Dr Rad  53:37

And they did get booty and the Volscians Aequians. were unhappy about it. So that's something that maybe I don't know, like a fine. Yeah. Because it's like when one lose one. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, it was not like they were really trying that hard to cover. And to me, it was a surprise attack. Clearly. They were clearly unprepared. Yeah, exactly. Okay, that's a five. All right.

Dr G  53:59

Diplomacy. Do you negotiate? Really with your army? I think you do.

Dr Rad  54:06

Do you use threats to get what you want? Sometimes? Yeah. Yeah, I think that says, oh, food.

Dr G  54:14

Yeah, expansion. Now,

Dr Rad  54:18

I guess for rigour. Yeah,

Dr G  54:19

but if you lose Carventum, and you gain Verrugo,

Dr Rad  54:24

you end up at a zero.

Dr G  54:25

Is that a zero?

Dr Rad  54:26

I don't know. I feel like do we start at 10? And it goes down to a five it's hard to say

Dr G  54:31

or is it win some you lose some? Oh, do we need to know exactly how much territory was taken versus how much territory was lost?

Dr Rad  54:38

God, how are we ever gonna figure that out? We didn't even know where Carventum is. It's a tough one. Yeah, like I think it's a fairly small scale at this point in time, so I don't know I feel like

Dr G  54:47

I think we can give them a one for getting Verrugo But I don't think we can give them heaps because they did lose Carventum, so they must have lost something as well. Yeah,

Dr Rad  54:57

I mean, very good. It was a spite capture.

Dr G  55:02

I caught Verrugo. It doesn't sound good. Okay, so why All right, our fourth category is virtus.

Dr Rad  55:13

No good

Dr G  55:15

old fashioned Roman masculinity. I mean, Look,are the Icilii demonstrating it?

Dr Rad  55:21

I was gonna say, I mean kind of.

Dr G  55:24

no lighting and trench coats. But

Dr Rad  55:28

to be honest, if I could give points for that, I would,

Dr G  55:31

you might need to update the categories as we get further on.

Dr Rad  55:35

I said it, I said, a monkey. Look, I feel like the Icilii are actually kind of demonstrating virtus. But it's not the kind of where to see patricians would particularly admire. But it is actually taking action. It is standing strong, but it's not involved in obviously, like any sort of armed conflict, per se.

Dr G  55:58

Yeah, it kind of sits in a slightly different category, like and I think the trouble for us at this point is that if we had say, a big like sort of set speech from Livy, for one of these characters, we'd get to see how they position the arguments. And we might be able to make a case for we're to us with those kinds of arguments that the two that were provided, but

Dr Rad  56:20

we really, we just did miss opportunity, isn't it? Yeah,

Dr G  56:23

I Look, I don't know why Livy doesn't go down that track a little bit more often. I'll tell

Dr Rad  56:27

you why. Because it took us forever. When

Dr G  56:31

we're, as part of Dionysius, his charm, he was always keen to show off his rhetorical skill. And that gave us a lot of leverage for thinking about where to us. But when we don't have those speeches, it does mean that we have to base it solely on the action that is recorded and passed on to us. And sometimes that's a little bit more ambiguous. And it's not necessarily clearly we're tours. Yeah,

Dr Rad  56:55

that's just in a long speech was made for which I have no evidence.

Dr G  57:00

I could do the old Thucydides on it. And it's like, I'm just gonna put the words into their mouth that I thought they should say,

Dr Rad  57:08

exactly. I mean, what do you expect? I? I live in an ancient time guys, this new recorder? Yeah, I wasn't doing my best. And I don't know anybody who was alright, so just back off. Just listening to my story, doing the best that I can, and it's going to be plenty accurate as you can get. Yeah,

Dr G  57:27

this is this is amazing journalism, given the circumstances. Our last category is the citizens score. Well, I

Dr Rad  57:36

think this is a category for us today. I mean, that plebeians are absolutely thrilled,

Dr G  57:43

they finally quaestors. Look at him go.

Dr Rad  57:46

I know, I mean, there's not much else that could be better apart from being a military Tribune or a consul. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. You

Dr G  57:55

know, one step closer is one step closer, and there's lots of them in the quaestorship. There's a really strong sense of the iqi. Looking after the little guy by delaying the levy. Now, there is a point – through threats and being incredibly stubborn. But there is also a point where delaying the levee can lead to the risk of the citizens if the enemy gets too close to Rome. So it's a fine line.

Dr Rad  58:22

It is, but I think that it's it doesn't seem like it's that.

Dr G  58:35

No, it seems fun. We don't know where these places are. So they can't be close to Rome.

Dr Rad  58:41

It's a fine line between pleasure and pain. But yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like the people would have been more freaked out if they actually thought they were in danger. Because if we've learned nothing from Livy's account, the Romans actually panic quite easily when they hear bad military news..

Dr G  59:00

And there is a tendency for the plebeians to capitulate on their demands as soon as they think there's a risk to their lives, which is fair enough.

Dr Rad  59:10

Yeah, absolutely. And that's what I mean. Like the minute we ever hear of like a military disaster being reported back in the city, they lose their freakin minds. They're running around all over the place. The person who's left in charge, it's like, holy crap, how am I gonna get this crowd under control? So the fact that they're not doing that

Dr G  59:28

as part human part chicken

Dr Rad  59:32

that's how that plebeians portrayed I think, and maybe

Dr G  59:36

there's just chickens running around everywhere in the city. Yeah,

Dr Rad  59:39

so Look, I feel like I'm gonna give this an EIGHT Yeah, all right.

Dr G  59:45

I'm not gonna quibble with that. I think the citizens need some bucking up so happy to have had a good run this year. Let's face it.

Dr Rad  59:55

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't really see much that is bad about this. Yeah, I'm I'm happy for them. And you know what? I'd also like to say Dr. G, once again, because I'm a broken record on these sorts of matters. But I took pictures as the events of 409 may, in fact, actually be, it is heartening to read about stories where people are willing to, you know, put it all on the line and their protest movement. And to see how when you actually put your mind to it, and you have unity, you can accomplish your goals, no matter how impossible it may seem, I

Dr G  1:00:35

sense that you're making a bigger claim about the world today through the power of what we can learn from history, and I applaud you, there is a huge people power and strengthen community and community action. That is how you make change.

Dr Rad  1:00:50

Absolutely. I mean, they have done studies on this, which obviously don't directly apply to a room, but looking at all sorts of people power moments, like civil rights movements, and people petitioning for political rights and that sort of thing. And it's shown that you actually only need a very small percentage of a population to be on board with something. But you just need like, you just need to get to like a certain level, a certain small level for people to be on board, to be supporting it to be campaigning it to stand unified to actually achieve change. And I think that we should wear this particular example into that basket, because, of course, the patricians aren't on board. In fact, I would wager that not even all the plebeians are on board, because as we've highlighted before, they are not like this unified class. Okay. There are people that have different interests. I mean, where the hell are the other Tribune's in their story who don't

Dr G  1:01:45

even get a mention, but they don't. It's amazing that would the ones that we have named, we're still talking about, presumably a small group of individuals with space. So yeah, pretty amazing stuff.

Dr Rad  1:02:00

Absolutely. Don't lose hope guys. Get involved with some groups show people that you care talk about it. In history of the early republic has shown us anything, talking about it endlessly. Eventually, we'll get into some way it went long as you combine it with stubbornness, be

Dr G  1:02:20

resilient, know your values and fight for what is good and right, indeed.

Dr Rad  1:02:25

All right. So that means Dr. G, that we have got the Romans finishing 409 on a grand total of 14 Golden Eagles. Actually, that's

Dr G  1:02:36

pretty impressive.

Dr Rad  1:02:37

It's not bad. It's been a lot worse. It has.

Dr G  1:02:42

Rome, you're going up in my estimation.

Dr Rad  1:02:45

Yeah. And we've obviously got potentially a very exciting year ahead of a strategy because with military Tribune with connsular power elections lying ahead, and a plebeian quaestor. In fact, sorry, I shouldn't say a several plebeian quaestors elected in 409. What does the future hold?

Dr G  1:03:08

Well, we will find out soon. Ciao.

Dr Rad  1:03:21

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