Retired FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program Chief Robin Dreeke has spent decades analyzing how dangerous individuals operate within family and community structures — and how those structures enable, conceal, and perpetuate harm. Today he's sitting with me to examine the Duggar cases through that lens, using the documented record and your listener questions as the frame.
Josh Duggar is in federal prison. Joseph Duggar has been arrested and faces felony charges in Florida, accused of molesting a then-9-year-old girl during a 2020 family trip — acts he allegedly admitted to first to the victim's father and then to law enforcement. He and Kendra have both been separately charged in Arkansas with child endangerment and false imprisonment counts — charges that reportedly followed discovery of exterior locks on their children's bedroom doors. Jim Bob Duggar knew about Josh's conduct years before any law enforcement contact and managed it internally.
From Robin's vantage point — someone who has studied how ideological and family systems enable harmful behavior — this case offers a detailed look at how institutional protection works, how a community enforces silence, and what it takes for patterns like this to eventually break through into the legal system.
We're asking Robin about the psychology of Joseph's alleged admission — what someone tells themselves when they've confessed to the victim's father and then face law enforcement the same day. About what Jim Bob's documented choices reveal about this family's operating framework. About the IBLP context that one listener, who grew up in a similar community, described as a system doing exactly what it was designed to do. About whether the victims — across years and multiple incidents — received anything approaching a genuine private accounting from the people who owed them one.
And about those four children. Both parents facing charges. Nobody asked them if they were ready for this.
Your questions. Robin's expertise. The behavioral framework that makes all of this make a terrible kind of sense.
This publication contains commentary and opinion based on publicly available information. All individuals are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Nothing published here should be taken as a statement of fact, health or legal advice.
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This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree.
One more case, we're gonna cover here today, the Duggers, counting the charges.
We put a new podcast out today, too, by the way. If you wanna just follow the Duggers saga,
the Duggers counting the charges, that's the graphic you'll find it wherever you get podcasts.
The Duggers name was built on a very specific promise, that a family rooted in faith, structure,
and absolute moral authority was worth putting on television, and holding up as a model.
For years, it worked, and the things started happening behind the scenes, and that image started to change.
Children who were victims, parents who knew a system designed to keep all of it quiet.
Now another Duggers facing criminal charges, his wife has been arrested in the family's response.
From some quarters, is that this is persecution.
The one question nobody seems to answer, the one thing at the center of all of this,
is whether anyone in that family ever actually chose the children first.
That's a question I wanna pose to you guys out there in the comments section,
and you guys please give us your questions as we work through this on Substac YouTuber wherever you're watching us.
Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis program is with us.
Josh is in federal prison, Joseph is facing charges, Jim Bob knew what Josh did and handled it himself.
Josh, no police, no real consequences until there was.
Is there any world where he ever actually answers for that?
Don is asking that via Facebook, and if people are already confused because everybody's name starts with a J,
Josh is the one from a couple years ago.
He's the one who admitted to doing things with his sisters, his sisters have come out and said, yes, he did that to us.
And then he got busted for material on his computer as used car dealership.
CSAM material that some local investigators here have said is some of the worst stuff they've ever seen involving a very young child.
I mean, just disturbing as hell, and he cordoned off his hard drive.
So nobody could find it because he already had a tracker on it because people are already watching him.
He's also had the Ashley Madison account.
I mean, he's in prison now until like 2032.
That's Josh.
Joseph now charged with doing inappropriate things with what would have been at the time a nine year old and has since admitted to that allegedly with local police on the line.
He's not being extradited back to Florida.
So is there a world in which we go back in time to which Jim Bob ever faces any sort of consequences for not reporting Josh to police?
Now that we've kind of defined the roles here.
I don't know.
It's going to come down to, as the great Bob modest says, the prosecution.
Do they have a prosecutor involved here, kind of like in the Adelson case where we're just going to go down one domino at a time?
I think I think there's a, I'm glad you started a whole podcast series on this.
It's going to be more.
How could there not be more?
You have two in one family all brought about because of a sect of a religion.
What was it?
IDLP.
IDLP.
Which is really extreme.
The curious charge.
I'm curious whether this comes up in this with what Jim Bob may or may not get involved with with others is trafficking.
Because again, I'm just looking at the limited data we see.
So Josh gets accused by his sisters or sisters reported to the dad that they were abused by him when they were younger.
The dad solution, Jim Bob solution was not to inform law enforcement, but to handle it internally.
This is what the church did.
This is their IDLP preaches.
We handle it.
We don't, we don't rustle up the brethren or whatever the hell he calls it.
And so their solution is sent them to a work camp, handle that IDLP headquarters.
Yeah.
I wonder what he's learning there.
So again, it's just conjecture.
So they kept everything as an organization in house.
You got to promise in house.
And so if you start moving people from one state to another state, that's a federal thing that will take charge.
Yeah.
And so I'm really curious.
Were they shuttling people back and forth?
Because again, on the special, that was the shiny happy people.
You have a few of the girls talking about how they were then abused at that headquarters
once they're shuttled there by the head of the whole organization.
What was that?
Yeah, yeah.
Not the doggers, but yeah, there's acquisitions from other people who have victims.
And so it's part of IDLP.
Right.
So to me, we have a lot of potential for other cases, at least for investigation.
That's why we have potential for a lot of investigation.
That's a good way to put it.
And I think it's important to say,
I'm not accusing Jim Bob of abusing his children or doing anything like that.
What the crime here would be is being aware, being aware that there's abuse happening
and not reporting it and not doing anything about it until he's eventually kind of forced to
because someone else's buddy, who's in that dock, said, you know,
by your own teachings here, by your own belief system here,
that you're running for Congress on and being all prim and proper in Jesus' sea on,
your son will be going to jail.
In some cases, if you look at it even deeper, he'll be getting the death penalty.
Because that is also part of what he, you know, campaigned on and believing is that,
you know, people who do this to children should face death.
I happen to agree with Jim Bob on that.
And I've said before, well, looks like you got some problems with your kids.
You might be having a few less.
You might have to change that number back to 17 or something.
But the thing is, and that I think is a serious question.
Because even if he's not doing anything, and again, I'm not saying he had or did,
he's never been charged with anything.
So in no way am I saying that, I know you're not saying that either.
But what we're saying is, okay, if you have knowledge of the crime,
something this severe, and you are essentially by not reporting it and enabling it,
because it's happening repeatedly as a pattern, that's a crime.
Yeah, complicit.
That is a crime.
I don't care what your religion says about it.
I don't care what you feel about it.
I don't care what you think is better.
I can't just create my own, like, it's essentially like they create their own country,
if you will, with their own sets of laws and rules.
And it's all controlled by God third and God.
And then whoever else is in the umbrella that day.
And I'm sorry, that's not how it works here in the US.
You can't like kind of create your own judicial system.
Yeah, just because you're in a religion.
The law doesn't mean you're not exempt from it.
There's no world where it's like, well, you're supposed to go to court,
but today I'm going to go to Lutheran court, and the Lutherans are going to judge me,
because my religion says that their law is more important than the actual judicial law of the land.
No, that's not how that works.
In fact, actually, the Bible talks about the exact opposite.
The Bible talks about giving to Caesar what Caesar's,
it talks about obeying the law of your land.
So he's actually violating that too.
But it's so amazing how folks like this, like,
it's so wrapped up into their bullshit cult religion,
can kind of just pick and choose what they like when they like,
and then apply it to whatever bullshit they want to do.
You know, kind of going back to your earlier theme on this.
It was really kind of shocking to see how it all started,
and then how the shift from being kids as the number one thing in the focus,
I mean, that's the whole premise of IDLP is the quiver of arrows of children
being the blessings from God.
And all of a sudden, the biggest blessing in his life became what he's making off of TLC.
That took precedent over everything.
And to, as anyone has children that you have a great healthy relationship with your kids,
can you ever imagine in any life span ever having the conversations
and the vitriol he was having with his second oldest Jill,
the oldest daughter, about how he was withholding money from her,
about how he claimed the IRS he's paying her all these hundreds of thousands of dollars
that she never got, and then guilty never into signing shit to sign it all away.
So you could keep using her as much as he wanted to rationalize in his behavior
of this is just a ministry.
I mean, just it was so as a father of a daughter watching him listening to him
and to think again, it's all according to Jill and her memoir.
There's her yep, yep.
Copy that with that, about how he was treating his children with that kind of disrespect,
and just focus of self, I mean, just watching him focus so hard on himself
as he years went on was heart-wrenching and heartbreaking.
And then to the eventual, you know, you have one kid in prison
and the others might be on his way there now.
I think it's going to be extremely telling,
and I hope to God, the FBI's, because obviously we've got interstate things going on here with Joseph.
And I mean, we know.
I mean, they're looking at all the digital devices, at least from Joseph and Kendra.
And here's the thing, that shit spiders out.
So if we're going to start to see, I got to knew anybody, if there's text messages on there,
or anything, some sort of communication between Joseph and Jim Bop or anybody,
sort of anybody here, and there's knowledge of this that went on,
there's more people going down.
I would think so, because first of all, you learn how to do this somewhere.
So here's a great, well, it's a horrendous step,
but here's a good step to know, to understand how these things work.
For every one child that you've seen that was trafficked in some way,
or their images were traded, there's 400 others that are those network.
And so if he learned this being Joseph, he learned this somewhere,
maybe he learned it from Josh, but Josh learned it from somewhere.
These two don't strike me as the type of individuals that would shut up and not share.
These look like blabbers that will do anything they can to get off,
to throw someone else under the bus.
And who they're going to throw under the bus?
Other people that taught them how to do this.
Where to do this? And so, where do you think that's going to go back to?
I'm interested, and I'm not saying it's Jim Bob by any means,
but I don't think it's the father.
I don't think it is his organization.
I think it seems to be.
I think, yeah.
And what I'm wondering is if even they are going to be surprised by what they find out,
by where these boys got this, or where this comes from.
I don't know.
There is a window here where they could turn this around.
The ones who did not do this, but were so bamboozled and so drinking the coolate of their religion.
Two of the girls have already done, I think what, two or three of the girls have already done this.
They've already gotten out and they've already seen reality for realities terms.
The rest could do it.
They could be, they could, if they really wanted to do something good,
Jim Bob and Michelle and everybody, stand up and go,
we were bamboozled too.
We thought this was the way to raise children.
We thought this was great.
Turns out this is an abomination of the Bible.
This is an abomination of Christianity and religion.
And we fell for it.
And unfortunately a lot of people have to, and we're sorry we did.
This is horrible, but let's expose it now.
Let's bring the people to justice because look how much it's damaged our family.
Let's prevent this from happening to anybody else.
Because I think there is a world where Michelle and Jim Bob are genuinely shocked by these things
and they can't figure out why it's happening, why this keeps,
but there's pattern going on with their kids.
But they're so tampered down into the IBLP and their way of thinking.
And they've dug themselves so far deep in that it's so unseeable, unfathomable to even get out.
But I don't know if they're even capable of getting out mentally.
But there's a window to do it.
And I'd highly suggest doing it.
Otherwise, I think the wrath of the evidence of reality is going to come down and it's going to come down hard in a lot of people.
I don't know who or where, but I would venture to say it's going to be more folks in this ecosystem that have been part of this way of thinking
and this way of covering things up and handling everything.
Any time you have an organization that is set up for secrecy, for not sharing information,
and from limiting and controlling, controlling contact between people, controlling what people does,
and it's centered at the top with one individual.
I mean, it's a pyramid scheme.
Where else did we see this happening to before, which kind of shocks you?
It's Kevin Franky, Ruby Franky's husband.
He was sold into all this crap that she was spewing to.
When these things become your identity, like Jim Bond and Michelle,
when you are so entrenched and this is your entire identity is your IDLP faith and your religion,
it can do no wrong because these doctrine that they set up and work from are non-correcting institutions.
They don't learn from past mistakes, they double down and say,
well, it's the individual that made a mistake, the institution organization is fine.
So that's what's happened here.
They're saying, Josh was bad, Joseph's bad, but the institution didn't know wrong, it's them.
So they don't change the institution, they double down on it, and that's why there's going to be more.
Yeah, it's not the hamburger's fault for being overcooked.
No, it's whoever cooked it.
Because it's common to have two out of 19 turn like this.
Yeah, exactly.
Totally common.
Oh my God, your odds are that high.
Yeah, it's...
And it's not just, it's not just, you know, we're not talking something,
like, like, like, didn't go to college or decided to become a plumber or following the father's footsteps.
All the things that, you know, can become systemic inside families that follow in footsteps,
but this, this is a rough one.
This, I've never seen, again, I've researched it.
I don't think it's ever been another case where you had two sex abusers, children, sex abusers,
as siblings in a same family.
Yeah, I don't...
Look that up.
I mean, maybe that's somewhere I'm sure they're probably, but to this level here, you know,
that were marketed to the world as, you know, wholesome.
And can I ask a more question?
This is the most important.
Why the hell does Joseph look like an adult version of the Gerber, baby?
You know, with the hair, I mean, it's like, what's going on here?
Why?
Anyway.
It's an innocent look of the religion.
We're just, we're just, look, we're just children of God.
I think that's kind of, you know.
Yeah, your thoughts on the comments section on sub-stack in YouTube.
We'd love to hear them and give us your opinion.
Press subscribe wherever you get podcasts.
You don't miss any of our podcasts.
As we put them up, be sure to check out Robyn's book.
It's not all about me.
It's available wherever you get books right now.
Go and check that out.
All right.
Until next time for Robyn and Todd, I'm Tony.
We will talk again real soon.
Want more on this case and others?
Then press subscribe now.
And don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky
and the Hidden Killers podcast.
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