FBI Veterans Coffindaffer and Dreeke on Guthrie, Duggar, and Gilgo Beach

0:00Well, reporting has now confirmed what many of us have suspected in the Nancy Guthrie investigation. The initial team assigned to work the case by really no fault of their own, the ones that they were assigned to, they lacked homicide experience. The sergeant supervising the response is reportedly never worked to homicide. Season detectives were allegedly moved off the squad before the case even started and sources inside the department say it was about loyalty, not merit. That's where the problem lies. A critical or the critical first hours of the abduction belong to whoever in the room and the people in that room may not have been ready for what walked through the door. That's where we're going to be starting today. There are questions in the comments section on Substack YouTube, Facebook, X, wherever you're watching us. Be sure to leave them. We'll try to get to them.

1:00Joining us as always, Rob and Rick, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, I co-host and it's a fun day. It's Friday, fun day. Jennifer Coffett is with us, so we have both perspectives in here today. Let's start, Jen, sources saying that the sergeant supervise the initial homicide response to Nancy Guthrie's home had never personally worked a homicide case and it had only been a sergeant for about six months. Okay, I mean, everybody's got to start somewhere, I guess, but you see there's no one to be your case. You're like, I don't want the rookie on this one. But when you hear that, Jen, I mean, what is the first thing that comes to your mind of concern of like, okay, rookie and like rookie mistake? Here's likely what could have been missed. What came to your mind when you heard that? Well, as you said, this was something that seemed evident by what we saw in other words, the crime scene being abandoned early and the mistakes made in regards to search parties

2:02being called off literally on day two. We saw the rookie mistakes come to light and now we're hearing, of course, the source reporting that that's because he was a rookie. So as you said, as you own through open with, I don't think any of us are surprised. And for me, I'm not surprised that Nannos made these calls because we've been hearing about how he chooses people not based on their abilities, but based on his relationship with them. Whenever you run a department like that, you're going to run into problems like this. Yeah, my gosh, Jen, I mean, I mean, in every organization, because we had to one of the comments, why aren't all departments trained in this type of investigation? You are. What happens typically, like where Jen and I worked with a bureau is you always had a lead investigator that had all the experience. And even if the junior person came in and initially found it, got the tips, got the call, whatever it is, once it gets back to the squad area, it gets transferred to a senior

3:02guy. You become a support role until you are mentored, taught and trained by those senior agents. And it does is typically, it makes you very hungry at a young age with a lot less experience because you want to be that guy, you want to be the person out in front, you want to be in charge because you now have all these reps of following in the footsteps of these great masters and Jedi's in front of you, but Nannos destroyed that entire, it's so disappointing. I mean, like I said, I mean, everybody, I'm trying to play devil's advocate here for a moment. And everyone knows I'm not a fan of Nannos, but everybody does have to start somewhere. I'm assuming, you know, the, the sergeant here that got, was in charge only six months. You know, before that, they had worked their way up, probably under somebody, probably saw a lot of things and then finally got the title and you hope by the time you get the title, you got enough reps underneath you that, you know, yes, you're new to the position, but you're not new to that sort of, of work. Is that what's, what's going on here?

4:03I don't know that we truly know the answer to that. But is, is this something where, obviously, they haven't found Nannos yet, but where this, this looks worse on paper and it makes for a great headline more than it operationally is super deficient in the case. I don't know your thoughts, Jen. Money, I love this side of you. You're kind and gentle today. No. No. We'll find out and you believe this is an abduction. Your first call has to be to the FBI period end of story. There's not even a check mark in the Pima County statistics that shows they've ever had an abduction because they haven't, not in this vein. The second of all, even if you look at their homicides, remember, homicide is way different than murders. You know, murders. Now you're even, you're also down on reps as we're talking about 12 and 20, 25, I think

5:07it was or 2024. See, this, this is simple call the FBI, not three days later, not after you've processed the crime scene that, by the way, has only one time to ever be processed. After that, it's, it's really much. Got one chance. Yeah. They just had no one out in front and tell them what to do, you know, saying, hey, and so even if you have the junior guy in charge, there's always someone like right here saying, you know, kind of give them nudges, you know, because that's, you're, you're right. You know, Tony, you know, good job on giving the grace and the positive aspect of this. But and granted, it could be going on because again, we're, we're kind of, I'll do the same thing. I'll be kind, you know, because it's, it's the lower levels that you want to support because everyone's doing the hard work. But it doesn't sound like they're doing what they should be doing in the sense of there's no senior experience with reps with the junior guy that's leading this investigation. And what happens is you get the deer in the headlights and you hit fight or fight or

6:08freeze. They froze. It looks like, because there's a lot of things I should have done quicker. What, I guess my, my, what, what makes no sense to me about this whole damn thing, Nanos, in my opinion, seems kind of like an ego maniac. He likes the attention. He likes the spotlight on him. He like, you know, and typically that's for good things. You want to be looked at as, okay, you're a hero, you're solving cases. You're doing this. You're doing that. His department actually has a fairly decent track record of, of solving homicides, although there's not many of them, but it's still there. It is what it is. Why? I mean, like at the end of the day, the people below you are going to be a reflection of your leadership. He should know that. I'm, he's been doing this 40 some years. I mean, why, why would you, in something that is truly, you know, you know, this is going to be a high profile case because of who it is. Why would you, why would you allow for that, putting somebody on this case that doesn't have the experience?

7:08When you do have other people that could handle it more efficiently, more professionally, with more experience, I know we go to the, maybe this is the answer. The ego thing of, well, some of these people didn't support him. So this is all he has left. But at the end of the day, the reflection of the performance is going to come back at him. He knows it. Why would you be going out there with your weakest link, knowing eventually this will reflect back on you? It's very simple control. He wanted to maintain control, which means he's going to put the people in charge that he can easily control and that they side with him. I can't wait to hear what Robbins take is on this. We really just didn't see that that much in the bureau, at least that I saw personally working for matters. You know, you picture the best, the best, and sometimes those guys and gals didn't necessarily jive with the supervisor, but the supervisor knew, let them run. Let them run.

8:09We'll, we'll them back in if we need to, but let the, let the forces run. I don't remember shopping anything like this really. No, and I'm with you, Jen, and I'm not the, you know, raw, raw bureau guy. You know, I'm very pragmatic about rights, wrongs and everything else, but when it came to this kind of stuff, whether it's a criminal side or my side national security, yeah. I mean, actually, as a junior agent, it made you really, really frustrated because you felt like you had the reps after five, six, seven years that you could take lead on this. But again, if the big one came in, it went to the senior person on that squad with all the experience and the experience in that particular area. And then if you're lucky and you were a good support person, supporting the, supporting the lead, they'd allow you to be part of it. And then they would test you, well, we'll give you this to do. And if you can keep your mouth shut, knock and plane and do this a good job, we'll give you a little bit more responsibility. So they're constantly doing a really good job and that's not just bureau. That's everywhere. Typically does that. And Jen, great point on that is, it's about control, right?

9:09And also, Tony, I didn't know the timeline you mentioned. You might have gotten rid of all the good people before this happened, thinking that, hey, I've devoted many of them. Yeah. So think about it. If he's got his mind, nothing ever big happens here. I'll just maintain control and then boom. And then what happens? Something big. So he didn't have anyone left. I mean, is this, you know, the word that I overuse all the time narcissistic, but I mean, is this just a narcissistic move where, I mean, did he, pure conjecture and speculation, but is this something where he did see an opportunity, there's going to be a lot of spotlights on this. I can't believe that he didn't think that there's going to be a lot of spotlights on this, although who knows? He doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb. But let's say he did see it coming. Was this a play of, let's put somebody out there who may not be the best? And then as we know, a lot of narcissists, they like to knock the blocks down and build them back up and go, look at me, I'm saving the day. I wonder if someone's with a calculation quietly in the back of his mind of, we're going

10:13to let this person fail and then I'm going to step in. You're going to see me in the spotlight and I'm going to answer the questions much better than they ever could all for the ego play. Maybe that's a bit too deep, but I don't know. It might be deep for nanos. I think it was, he's not a deep thinker, right? I think it was a little simpler than that. I really think it just came down to, listen, I'm going to put you in charge because you're a yes man. You're new. I'm going to have total control. I'm not going to have to worry about argument back and forth about decisions that are being made because they're going to be my decision. And you know, that's the last thing you want, by the way. You want people on your team that are going to push back some on the things that they feel about that you can cut up. That's what we call it. We cut it up and we look at it and we're the person that might be the case agent and they might have two, three up to 10 was the largest amount of agents I had assigned to a case. You cut it up and you work through it and oftentimes I know as a case agent, I'm like,

11:15you know what? You're right. Let's switch direction on this or let's try this. That's how it should work. You did it all the time on the behavior team too, exactly like that. Whether your team leader or fell in a role with us on your squad, I mean, it was literally a team effort to do that. I think it's overconfidence played in it too because we keep talking about is narcissistic tendencies control. Part of that, I think, because of his all his time there, he's overconfident. He probably thought this thing is an easy case to solve maybe. What damage has been done by these decisions and is there any rectifying it? Is there any way of correcting any of this at this point, Jen? What's your thoughts? Well, first of all, you can never get a crime scene back. Second of all, you can never get the first 48 back or it of all Nancy's gone. Still no idea where she went, what happened to her. And number four, we have no pointer on a subject.

12:16So that's your answers to all of that, I think. And then, although one step further, which nobody's really talking about, and this is why I hate to see this, I cringe when I see this, not because of the reporters again, but because of the message. This is such a botter for a defense team. I fear, I mean, really good point. But well, there ever be justice in this case because you think the social media hounds are on this and the creators. Oh my gosh. Wait till we see a defense team, but now they've got a hundred reasons why the guy that probably is the guy that they're going to end up arresting isn't the guy. Well, just just the debacle of the gloves, you know, well, who is one of the glove of a perpetrator glove or is a glove of an ERT agent? I mean, just the glove debacle for one thing, you're right. I mean, just a hand in the crime scene because of how it's handled the onset. Now, that's going to be a lot of fodder. Oh my gosh. This whole thing is like ripping the rug of hope out, isn't it?

13:20Yeah. It didn't, it didn't the glove turned out to be like somebody that worked at a restaurant down the road or something. Yep. It's like, you're seeking gloves, though. And I saw an interview and I can't remember what date it was because he's done a lot even after he dropped his pressors. He still was, you know, interviewing with NBC and the local affiliate where he said that wasn't even the glove. You got to watch it where he's like, that's not even gloves. Something like that. In other words, not the glove everybody's been talking about. There were 16 gloves, everyone. Does he even know what glove? I mean, at the end of the day, does he even know what one I was? Here's a thought I had on the glove, whether being the guy from the restaurant, I'm going to guess this guy has his reps in throwing gloves out his window every day. I'm guessing after he leaves the restaurant as a line cooker, whatever he's doing, gets in his car, rolls down the window, takes him off, boom, it's probably a pattern. That might be why there's 16 gloves from 16 or eight different dinner surfaces. I don't know.

14:20But I don't know. I mean, it's just, it's maddening. The fact that there's really no, there's no levers to pull for repercussion on poor decision-making by leadership in these sort of positions. Is that a flaw in our system? Do we have a system that relies too much on people doing the right thing? Being professional, being good, doing the right thing, and we also then rely on our citizens to pick the right person as well. Is this something that maybe should be re-examined because we end up with a lot of folks like this in these sort of positions and it was like, how did this happen? You chose them. That's how. You didn't pay enough attention and you picked the person. You know, Tony, at the end of the day, you said it. He was chosen. He was elected and the amount of power in these sheriff's offices, it's very different than the Bureau.

15:21Yeah. A lot of checks and balances. This is, you are all powerful, really. You're kind of like the SAC, I guess, in a field office. So the head of that field office is pretty much all powerful. Mm-hmm. But it's all countable. You can still be removed. We've seen it. I'm with you, Jen. He's got too much power as an elected official in charge of this and you can't remove. I mean, if this happened inside the Bureau, and I'm so sorry, Jen, I totally jumped on you on that one, but it's so accurate, he can't be removed. So if this was inside the Bureau and you had a couple of case agents, two young assigned to a case, I can guarantee you, I don't care what program it is, they won't be doing that again anytime soon. The supervisors are going to be having a good talk to, it might be shifted squads between what they do. I mean, there is always repercussions, especially if it's an outward focus case and it's going to not just impact the case, but the reputation of organization which goes to that

16:23feeling of, you can trust the organization to do right. All those things matter with it comes to optics as well as execution. So there would be major shakeups inside of the Bureau if that happened. Let me give you one example, really quick, Tony, and Robin, is if you look at the New Orleans case, yes, I know exactly, that's always thinking of, go ahead, yep, yep, go ahead. And ASAC, she got on there and she said, I mean, despite all the information that was out there, the banners waving, ISIS, everything that was known, she said, well, this isn't necessarily a characteristic event, when basically you just needed a pulse to sort of see that, she could have just said it a little bit differently and maybe gotten away with it. She was plucked out of there so fast it made your head spin because you said when it comes to a public reflection of the Bureau and not looking like you know what you're talking about, you're gone. Yeah, and they sent the DAD down, a deputy assistant director, I think, from headquarters to handle that until they got someone new in there.

17:24I remember that very specifically because we're all watching like this. Oh my God. I didn't say that and they fixed it, I wanted to help her, I was like, that's what happens when you get called in over, because that was New Year's Eve, right? Yeah. Well, that's what happens when you put somebody who is new and a novice and doesn't have experience in that role, brain away, sec, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's one of those things that the general public is shocked by, but it's, it's how the system is working as designed right now. The system needs fixing and that's ultimately I think what, what the solution is to something like that. We can complain about it all day and how this is, but at the end of the day, that's why people vote and that's why people need to pay attention. And that's a good question for both you. Why are there sheriffs that are elected? I don't understand why some organizations, they're appointed, but like the town council and then others, they're elected.

18:26I mean, why? I mean, just because every time there's an elected official, this seems to really go sideways sometimes. Have we seen a good one? Well, I think one issue isn't, you know, I'll use the bureau. You have to, in my opinion, and thank goodness the number two at the bureau came up this way because I'm affiliated with him from time back in Houston, but you have to have somebody that came up through the ranks, earned their way, made their mistakes, made their bombs, and then comes up. And typically the best people are people that never want to get into management. And they decide to, for whatever reason, either they're coaxed into it by upper management or they're just like, oh, my God, I cannot work for this idiot who has three years in and now he's my supervisor. So I got to make a move here, something like that. Yeah, you know, my point is, is it happens.

19:26And that's why Louis Free was such a good director for us too, because he spent time as an agent. First, when he's like 10 or 12 years before he went to private sector. So I mean, he was a great director, he's in, I think with you too, right on Jen, when you came in. Yeah. Oh, yeah. No, Louis, yes. He was. I love it. And this is the type of guy he was. I got a quick, quick personal story. So he was coming through the DFW airport at that time I had responsibility, I was there sorry there. And when he came through, normally all the directors have this huge SWAT contingent. He didn't want that. Like he was carrying his, might have even been a revolver back then. No, it wasn't. It wasn't. We worked 10 millimeter. So anyway, they assigned me to be his bodyguard. Just me. He didn't want anybody else. He didn't even really want me talk about an agent's agent. This was an agent's agent. And that's what you got to have. Although Sheriff Nanos, he came through the ranks. I will say that. Yeah. And something happened.

20:27I fell in love with, fell in love with his own story. Look at the doggers. There's a lot of 19 kids that came out of the house, you know, some are good, some are not. You know, someone goes sideways. Yeah. Pretty bad. Your thoughts on the comments section on this on Substack and YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in. We're going to go now over to that exact topic. The doggers. Two sons in the same family. Well, one that was facing a criminal charge is the other ones locked away. One's already serving federal time. The other just posted $600,000 bond in Florida. Actually, you should correct that Jim Bob posted that bond in Florida. You know, teaching a son's accountability, like a good Christian father does. And he entered a not guilty plea after allegedly already admitting to this on the phone call with the father of the victim. But not guilty. And Jim Bob comes down with the check, you know, like Jesus would do, barred from unsupervised

21:31contact with anyone under 18, you know, like Jesus would do. The investigation that started with Joseph Duggers arrest didn't stop at Joseph. It went into the home. It found conditions that produced their own separate charges. And the townie town police department who said this investigation remains active and ongoing. The question isn't just what Joseph Dugger allegedly did. It's who knew who stayed silent and whether investigators are now looking at the family system itself, which pro tip investigators, you need to do that. There's one into the Dugger home because of the Florida allegations against Joseph and allegedly came out with evidence of locks on the outside of the children's bedroom doors. It doesn't sound horrific, but it does. It's a fire code violation at the very least. But when you put it into the bigger picture perspective of everything we know now about the Dugger family and the facade that was pitched to the public for more than a decade and still continues to be by those who still follow their teachings, which led to a separate

22:32endangerment and false imprisonment charges against both Joseph and Kendra. Let's talk about that. It triggered the local charges in Arkansas and the investigation. I know they're all saying, oh, this is just too much. It's BS. When a home search tied to one of the cases produces evidence is something completely different. I'm going to ask you guys, how does that change the scope of what investigators are now authorized to pursue and how quickly can a single case become multiple cases? Given this, because of that, can they now dig into more of the ecosystem of those around the Duggers to see, hmm, what else might we find here? Absolutely. You are not confined just because you find out information on one type of violation. If another violation comes to light, when you run down the road, it just matters. Are they criminal violations? As far as that bond out, a judge made it too low. It's it's sickening that this person is out.

23:35You know, what can I say? All these molesters need to be behind all of them. What's sickening to me specifically, but it is you still have folks and look, I am not knocking anybody's religion or anything like that. I'm knocking them the IBLP 1000 percent because I'm not a religion, it's a cult. It's a cult. Yes. But that's the sad part of this. There's so many people who are in an organized religion that it's not a cult, that somehow conflate themselves as being, well, we're kind of like that. We both believe in this deity, so we must be kind of like, no, you're not. You're not. You're very different. And let's stop pretending you're the same thing before you become the same damn thing. And I'm wondering sometimes if that's what's going through the mind of some of these judges or this and that, where they don't fully see the scope of what the hell these people actually are because the word Jesus gets involved. And it's like, well, that's a word that's been bastardized and used a thousand times to Tuesday to coerce and control people, not that Jesus is bad in itself, but when you

24:38use it as a weapon, as a weapon of control, yeah, it kind of goes against the whole things he talked about. That is what's very concerning to me with this case and all of the cases with the doggers is that too many people get too wrapped up in that and they don't dig as deep as they should because at the end of the day, well, they're, they're God-fearing people. Yeah, no, I'd beg the differing, Jen. Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a facade, really. Yeah. I think oftentimes just used as a avenue and a conduit to gain control of people again. Yeah. So what they want, it's so sad, I mean, we've seen it over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Those are two of the big ones, obviously, different smaller groups that are more like the Dugger situational that start out with families and then they just get their weapon tentacles out. I agree, you know, somehow whenever law enforcement's involved in bad doing or when

25:39religion is involved in bad doing, it's just way worse. Yeah, and I'm curious to you what the criteria that he had for setting the bond price because like you said, Jen, no price is really too high for someone with this kind of accused background. But I'm really curious because, you know, we talked about the other day, the weaponized spirituality that they use in weaponized religion. And so if the judge or whoever is doing, you know, the bond stuff here is kind of allowing themselves their confirmation bias about their belief system of Christianity or their belief system of Jesus or whatever the belief system is, they superimpose it on them saying, oh, I can keep the bond here because they're all Christians, I can trust them. You know, I can trust they'll take care of their own, you know, so I'm really wondering if their own confirmation bias came in there and that they're consciously, the Duggers are consciously weaponizing or subconsciously weaponizing the whole trust that's ingratiated

26:39to them, that's given to them because of their religious beliefs because it obviously bamboozled the judge, I think, on the bond. You know, it's such an interesting point, but when you look at some of these judges and their decisions, I mean, you know, for me on the X platform, it's one of my strongest picadillos just posted about a new law that was implemented just a couple of days ago, signed off on in Florida because an individual accused of sexual assault of a minor was out and it was actually pre-sentence, post-conviction. Oh, my God. Now, and guess what they did, tortured, assaulted, mutilated, their five-year-old stepdaughter need to read about this case, it's horrible. And, you know, why would the judge let somebody out? That's even after adjudication. It's those crimes. And that is the worst time they've been, they're, they're awaiting, what do you think

27:41they're going to do with their last hours of freedom? Oh, my God. I'm not accusing the judge of anything, but it really does make you wonder what the hell's going behind the closed doors of people who make those sort of decisions. Especially with our confirmation bias, have we keep seeing corrupt people doing corrupt things? Well, what other reasoning would you have? I mean, there's no, I mean, other than you're not paying attention, I mean, that's the only thing I can think of, like the case after case after case comes through the door, and you just start phoning it in and you're not really paying attention to the details of the case. Like, here's what we're going to do next case. That's not acceptable, but like, I guess that's the only, morally acceptable reasoning I could think of as to why they would screw up so badly with a ruling like that, because the other is, is very dark. And I get, I don't know, but it would certainly make me wonder what the hell's going on here that you are being this kid glovey with a person who likes kids. Especially when there's, it's not like Joseph is an outlier anymore either.

28:42He's starting, he's now a stop. You got two out of 19. That's called a pattern. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be very concerned if the pattern continues and what the digital footprint may show. But locally, in Arkansas, the Tony Tom Police Department has said the investigation. And I want to be clear, so people understand this. There are two different things going on here. You have the charges in Florida for the little girl. And then over here in Arkansas, you have the charges where it was triggered to go and look into the home to see, is there any abuse going on in the home? What they found was the allegedly the door locks being reversed. They didn't. Arkansas charges against his wife and him are not not child predator type related. They are about the home and the locks and all of that. But they are. Because I'm sure that's not related. Yeah. Well, exactly. Well, exactly. That's it.

29:43That's great. So let me jump on it. Let's see where that goes. And because I guess that's my kind of question. What they're saying about that case, they already went in. They did their checks. They did the charges for the door locks. And you know, both of them have been been charged and there's a court date coming up. But they are continuing to say that that investigation remains active and ongoing. If it were just the door locks, okay, we did this. We're done. Would that investigation still be active or ongoing or would it be wrapped up and done? Because okay, here's what we found we got nothing else. I'll tell you, my first investigative step, I've gotten a warrant based on the lock and the floor distribution. And I would have gotten crime scene group in there and taken DNA and see if there's seminal fluid or semen DNA on the kids's beds, bedding, anything in there. That would be my next step.

30:45And also, and so I'm going to give another reverse angle as to Jen. I would then do other areas of house as well. Because if they're locking the kids in, it might be because they don't want them coming out to be observing something else as well. So I think everything's on the playing field on that one because it's really weird behavior. So they're either keeping them in the rooms for the sake of having them locked in the room, but also keeping them in the rooms because they don't want them being able to pop out while something else is going on in another room. So again, when you have that kind of control, there's a lot of things that control can be used for. So, especially, so think about this. So he's accused of touching a young lady, a girl, what, nine, nine year old at the time. Nine years old in another state. Yeah. So the likelihood of that happening closer to home is pretty high. And so, so if you want to rule out, so he's comfortable doing this with someone not part of family, that means in order, if you're going to have someone not part of family in that house, you're going to want to keep people away from being able to observe it. I don't know, just pure kind of jumping conjecture on that.

31:47But I, it's a control issue to me. So there's a lot there. And I, I don't have any confirmation on this, but there is some inklings on the internets, the worldwide webs, if you will, that maybe a little closer to home than we are aware of. In terms of the individual, may not just be a family friend, maybe a little, the, the dynamic might be a little more than we're aware of. But again, I don't know, for sure, can confirm anything, but, but that would be an interesting turning point in all of this. Jen, have you heard the night or the phone calls between the two, between, no, nobody's hurting me yet? Okay. We're going to bring those out. One of these, maybe Monday we'll do it. But it's a very, very interesting situation. It seems like they're, they're in, especially Kendra, his wife. She seems genuinely confused. She's saying, we can't trust anyone. She still seems very much on his side, but very much confused, just hell.

32:49I mean, she's been brought up in this. She only knows this world. She was married off to him, you know, within the IBLP community. So she's, you know, full born and bred cult member, and I, I do have some grace for her, because that's the only world that she knows. But as we've seen in other situations, like FLDS and things, when Warren Jeffs gets busted or Bateman gets busted, some people finally go, okay, I'm seeing the light now. I have no idea, we had no idea this was horrible and bad. But that is the thing, that it's that impenetrable wall that so many of these religions put up. And then law enforcement can't seem to get into, I'm doing a piece on Bateman right now. There's a great Netflix stop coming out next week about it or this week about it, where the police did investigate Bateman, the FLDS offshoot after Jeffs got arrested. They did go and talk and every time it was like, well, looks like things. Things are okay here. And then they went off and did their own thing.

33:50It took a documentarian to really break that third wall or fourth wall. In this case here, I would, I would say to investigators out there, don't walk away. This needs to be looked into deeply and closely and you're comment there about looking for the fluids. That's an interesting one. That makes a lot of sense. Is that something that they would need? I mean, do they have enough right now to go and do that? Should some investigator get a wild hair or the light bulb goes above their heads or a certain podcaster sends them a video clip of Jennifer Kaufendaffer making this suggestion to them and saying, hey, here's a thought. Would that, could that maybe make a reason for another warrant in a return visit to the Dugger House? All you need is probable cause. Low. Low. And in a case like this, I think they get it, possibly I don't know what else they have,

34:50but I'm like in a case like this, yeah, digital trail, I want the physical trail. Secondarily on your first comments regarding her, sorry, Tony, it is fun Friday, blah, blah, blah. It's like valo, I don't buy it just because they're women. Does it mean they're stupid and doesn't, they're truly controlled? Did you not see the locks? Hello? Why? Are they running a kennel? I can't. Oh, kind of. It's absolutely so degrading and so wrong and I pulled her completely accountable for anything that took place in that house. Yeah, being indoctrinated into a cult is not part of your defense. It's not. But I mean, like, I don't know what is wrong with me today. I'm like being kind and I don't know, I don't know and I'm saying all these pure, because

35:52the Jen's conversation about what the Bureau would do, I'm like, wow, that's actually really good memory of me. You know, for the Bureau, like I'm saying positive bureau experiences, Tony's being kind, what the hell? Rain and cats and dogs. I don't know what's going on. I should just walk away right now. But like with the FLDS, specifically in the Bateman case, because I just did a piece on it this morning, they went lighter on some of the women that were Bateman's followers because they had been Warren's followers. They've been born into this and really Kendra was born into this too. Yes, she's in a grown-ass adult. She has her own autonomy. So does Joseph. So do all of these people. But in the FLDS type situation in Utah, they did go light. They did sentence some of the women that were putting their children out there for Bateman to go at. But they went lighter because they did try to understand these people know nothing more than their ecosystem. Are they running a kennel? I would say kind of. I mean, look, you're locking the people from the outside in their rooms.

36:54Essentially, this is kind of the world that she grew up into and this is the atmosphere in which they raised their humans to be complicit, to be non-educated, to not really be able to see or understand anything on the outside world in terms of what is ethically sound, safe and well. They are told anything on the outside. Anybody questioning the bizarre shit that they do on the inside, it's witchcraft, they're evil. It's the enemy coming in to get you. And so they believe this shit. There is that element to it. And that's where I wonder if there's going to be any grace for her grant to the charge of she faces are very minimal. They're misdemeanor. She's not going to see tail time unless, of course, it gets deeper unless, of course, it gets to the point where what if, and this is pure conjecture, this is not fact, this is not really anything unless, of course, they do get into that house and they do start

37:56finding more stuff. They do start saying, oh, you just looked the other way, didn't you, while dad had to go do whatever, Bible study or whatever they always calling it with the kids. That seems to be, I guess, a little different if she had knowledge, but I mean, that's, I don't know, my question is here, but that's, I want you to rip off of that with your thoughts. I can frame it. Can I take that and frame it into a question for Jen? So based on all that, it looks like, from, again, outside appearances from what she's been presenting, is that Kendra is, you know, saying complacent, but she doesn't seem, the shock and awe and, and the grow and, and just react right of what her husband did didn't seem to be impacting. In other words, she wasn't projecting shame from what we've been seeing onto Joseph actions. And so if he doesn't feel that she is judging him in any way, his being more open with

38:58the things he's doing is going to be higher. Would you, I mean, like, from the case that you've seen, Jen, if someone's reaction was not being, you know, just totally grossed out by what your husband did, are they more or less likely to actually be complicit in that because of that, that comfort level they see, she seems to have with him and what he's done. Absolutely. We can take a microcosm of a case that everybody knows about, and that's, oh gosh, no, Madeline. Maddie Soto. Yep. Take a microcosm of that case. Yep. And that is the microcosm of a woman that well knows what's happening. Yeah, I'm simple. And it's just a microcosm of how women know they let them sleep with their kid. It's so gross. And, you know, they just blind themselves because of what they don't want to lose. Yeah. You've got a car in it right there. That's a great example of being, of rationalizing in a way that the most evil and people.

40:03Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's very true. And speaking of the shame, that's another interesting thing that I noticed on that phone call, or the multiple phone calls between Kendra and Joseph in the last handful of days. There's no shame. Now, I'm not expecting them to be on a phone call like, oh my God, they got me. I mean, I don't expect that some of these people like this react, but they're talking about this case as if they were, you know, ordering McDonald's like, well, you're going to quarter pound everyone. I mean, it was just, she wasn't shocked, was she? No, she, she wasn't, she was feeling like sad that, that he was behind bars, that, that he's getting accused of these things. And he's reading the Bible and he's, oh, I'm so glad you're doing that. And she's talking in the minute Michelle voice, it's, oh, it's so sad. I mean, it's, it's just so creepy because neither of them seem to feel, need to, neither

41:04they are expressing, you're not feeling any shame out of either of them on these phone calls. I don't know why one, I would expect that. I don't know because it's a human emotion that if somebody gets caught doing this shit, they should feel. But I guess if you're doing it to begin with, you're kind of absent to that from the get go, aren't you? You know, I always make this analogy. I think I know I've done it here too. Yeah. Watch whole fiction. Okay. I know it's Tarantino and his, but it's so true that in the criminal world, it all starts to become so normal. It's like, yeah, she's, oops, accidentally shot the guy behind me. You clean up the brain, so you clean it up or whatever it might be. This behavior is normal. It's you and why, like you said, go into McDonald's. Yeah. And will malacy becomes our day and our moment and how we feel. And that is why you see when you work these hideous cases over and over, there's, it looks

42:09like no empathy because that's just their wife. They think it's normal. So let's go to the arcs, you know, the life arcs behavior arcs we keep talking about. So to all these points, everything that during this conversation, there's not an emotional response spiking out of their normal, which means all the topics that they're talking about are falling within a pattern of what they're normally talking about, normally exposed to have seen before. Because when we see something new, there's a new stimulus comes in, we have a reaction. Our tempo is reacting, our body language is reacting, our voice and flexion. All these things is reacting to new information coming in. We've done, I mean, how many of us have done the analysis? Well, Jen is one of leading on this on porch man and Nancy in Nancy Guthrie's house. He has reps on that porch because he was fluid on that porch. There was nothing. Even the cam, the stupid stuff he's doing, he had reps and doing this on that porch. This conversation, there's reps, maybe not in specific conversation, but the topic doesn't

43:14seem to be shocking or appalling to anyone involved. They've seen it before somehow. Yeah, I mean, that, and then I'm wondering about that a little bit, I'm sorry, I'm talking over you, Jen. Go ahead. No, I just said great point. Okay. What comes to my mind here and the only way to explain it, and again, I have no evidence to this. I'm not accusing anybody of this, but the only way that anyone is speaking about this in such a normalized way, and then I don't understand how it will be normalized. Unless it's accepted as, well, that's just how life is. This is what people do to you when you're young, is if these people had all these adults who are victimizing children have also been victimized themselves and have somehow done the mental gymnastics to not find it to be unacceptable of what happened to them that then somehow they normalize it and then they, you know, repeat the pattern and perpetrate

44:15it on others. That's what comes to my name. When you have an ecosystem like this where this just kind of keeps happening over and over, you end up with people that, oh, that, well, that, no, big, I grew up just fine. And like, they don't realize how warped they are because that was normal to them. So it makes me really wonder, you know, is this, is this the cycle that's continuing and what happened to these people that make them act as if it is like ordering McDonald's? Yeah, it is, Tony, I mean, you hit it on the head. It's not only with sexual abuse, but you'll see it in physical abuse, it's persistent and persists throughout their children and it's that people break the pattern. I'm not saying they don't. I was not too long ago in Utah and I'll be careful with this doing some interviews with a writer on a case and it was specifically about the people in this town and how incest was pervasive and have a town where it's a very small town in Utah where people, most

45:21of them, not most of them, many of them have club feet, cleft palettes, no, I'm not kidding you. Yeah, yeah. In interviewing them, you walk in and you're like, yep, I married you my first cousin. I'm not even kidding you. Well, I'm actually, they would be proud when they could say, I'm actually married to my third cousin. I didn't interview anybody that wasn't married to a cousin because that is what this area and society grew up. Yeah. It's fine. So it's just to your point that it persists. Yeah, it's insidious, it's pervasive and it's so damaging and it can basically create monsters from the ground up, people who didn't, who came into this world and didn't ask for any of it. They ended up being made into. It's not to excuse any of it, but when you call, you create a culture of cultivating monsters with this sort of behavior, this is what you get. I mean, even if you wrap it up in a bow and put it on television on TLC and make it to

46:26this colloquial, oh, these gosh darn cute folks aren't they naive. Yeah, little do you know back at home. It's another factory. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I was impressed. Another factor to creating whackadoodles. We'll get t-shirts soon with all that and don't miss McDonald's new 19 kids and counting happy meal. Collect all 19 figures today plus 150 bucks. I'm going to make that on AI. I'm going to make a commercial. That'll be fun. All right. Let's go over to another. Your thoughts in the comment section on Substack in YouTube. We love for you to weigh in. One more case, seven women allegedly killed across nearly two decades and for over a decade after that. Nothing. No arrest. No suspect name publicly. The Gilgo Beach case sat cold while families buried what they could recover and waited for a system that seemed to have forgotten them. Now with Rex here, I'm in reportedly preparing to change his plea to guilty on charges connected

47:31to all seven victims. This case enters a brand new phase. And where the questions don't get simpler, they get a little bit harder. Jennifer Kaufendaffer is with me and Robin today, retired FBI special agent. Jan Rex here, I'm in maintained his innocence for nearly three decades, his defense challenged the DNA, fought the split, the trials, filed motion after motion and lost every single one. Let's talk about this. So someone who's built cases against violent offenders, when a defendant who's been fighting that hard and has maintained this secrecy, this veil for all of these years, fooling his friends, fooling his family, fooling everybody, he decides, now I'm guilty. What does that tell you about what's really going on behind the scenes? Well, behind the scenes, he and his legal staff believe they've exhausted everything. They've exhausted what they can't exhaust and then that's coupled with the fact that Asa, he's got his daughter and basically, I don't think he wants to run all of this

48:35through the mud. Look, I mean, we already know because of his journals, the absolute salaciousness and nastiness of what he's going on. That's been made public, but can you imagine what that would mean in a trial? He doesn't want, so threefold. One, I think he thinks he's going to lose. Number two, he wants to save his family. And number three, he wants to save himself, and I should probably put that at the top, because he doesn't want all of this out here. That's my opinion, why he doesn't have a grip. Yeah, so Jen, we're talking about this yesterday too, totally agree, and I'm with you. I think he's putting himself above his family, because again, the human in us, people with empathy, think that he would be taking these actions for family. But no, he's incapable, I think, because of what he's done. I think he saw his family as a tool to help him do what he wanted to do to other women. I'm curious, with your experience, with people like this, can they use, because the only

49:37thing I had as a possibility, information that he can have and still withholds about other potential victims he has, might be used as currency, can he be using that maybe as currency, if he can hold that information and control it for himself, once he already knows and accepts all right, I'm going to be behind bars, the only currency I have is more information. Do you think that's a possibility? I do, and I like where you're going with this. Of course, we're talking about a non-beth-deaf penalty situation here, and usually what these chips are used for, but could it be used for a bargaining tool to get parole? Look, he's not going to get it, so I don't think it's much of a bargaining tool, but I can still see him using it again, like a BTK, to bring in their power and control over the narrative, you know, I absolutely think he could be using it. But let's talk about like that with BTK for a second, because he's always, from behind bars, left little breadcrumbs, that's what he likes to do, and when people have questioned

50:43him on certain cases, he's been either elusive or he's been flat out, saying creepy shit like, well, that wasn't my work, which just kind of gives you shivers when you think about it. I mean, obviously, BTK is not on parole, he's dying in prison right now. But did he get anything that, you know, for a little nuggets that he would drop here in there? I mean, was that ever fully pulled on his part, or is this something where maybe Hewerman could pull it more because the odds that there are several other from Hewerman that are connected to him are very high, maybe even more than BTK. So first of all, I'm going to call him Dennis Raider because, and I should have called him that. It was my fault I opened with that because he wanted to be called that. Right. Yeah. That was his call me. Stay too. Right. So Raider, first of all, with him, it was kind of interesting because when you look at the later cases that people tried to tie into him, he was almost pissed off.

51:47Yeah. And look at what he said in court, he wanted to, he was so proud of his work and he wanted it out there and he knew it was caught, unlike a, you know, what we saw from Brian Coburg or just talking about these cases that I know people are familiar with. When he did this, this was a proud moment. In fact, officers stopped wanting to go see him. They were like tired of hearing the stories over and over again. They didn't want to sit for fireside chats about these murders anymore. So that, that truly happened within his Raider. So with this case, though, he hasn't said anything. I will be very interested to see if he's quiet like Coburger or whether he does more of a Raider or whether he just, you know, what does, what does he do? Is he going to allocate? We're going to see. Yeah. It's interesting because I, I, I get the question Tony is like, what, what can he gain from has my knowledge and like, what did Raider gain from it?

52:50I think what Raider gained, again, I don't know what he gained actually materially in jail from it, maybe nothing, but in here, remember the whole, the whole reason why serial killers do what they do is the fantasization of what it is they've done. That's why they stage things. That's why they take trophies. And so his, his, every time he needs a hit of a, of a dopamine hit from, from that, that's when you leak something. That's because then you get the attention. So it's that grandioses what gets fed. And so I think that's where he's using that currency to get what matters to him. And so, but to Jen's point exactly, you, um, you or man comes across very differently. And so it would be really interesting. Maybe he is more of the material guy. Maybe if we were talking about this yesterday, maybe he's can, you know, try to leverage a, a better place to be incarcerated in or, or commissary something, I don't know. But, uh, he, he is a different cat at the, definitely looks like it. Yeah. A little circle real quick, Tony. Yeah. To in large part, why list by human was not caught earlier?

53:55Because again, of malfeasance within a police department. Yeah. And I should say malfeasance. That's not the right word. Absolute, because that's more to do with money. Absolute corruptness actually in that department. Um, but basically you have these departments that are in charge that don't have oversight and everything that happened in that case before it was taken over. This case should have been solved so long ago. Yeah. So just bring a full circle, obviously. Mm-hmm. What's going on in the ass? Yeah. Leadership, leadership, leadership. Yeah. The, the other question, I think that that's going to linger out there. And I'm not accusing her of anything whatsoever, because I think in a lot of ways, she is a victim of this too. I mean, it almost kind of goes back to like what we were talking about with the cults, with, uh, with the doggers and, and such, where you have adults that have their autonomy, can make their own decisions and such. But, but sometimes they're bamboozled into stuff. And I do not know only, only she would know and he would know and whoever was in that

54:59house would know. Asa Elrup, his wife, obviously maintains her innocence, has never been charged with anything. Um, but again, if this now turns out to be true, Rex did all this, he's admitting to it. So we have that as an established fact, this shit was going on in your house, the house that you lived in. Did you really not know anything? And I think it's an interesting question because she may have known things, but not the context of them. Um, and I think that that, that's, that plays a key part in any of this. Do you, do you foresee anything, again, not accusing her of anything, but do you foresee anything of, of her possibly being charged with anything in this, or is that, would that have already have taken place now that were this many years in since after his arrest? I don't think she will be charged with anything. Do I think she knew, listen, I would just ask this to everybody. Yeah. Yeah.

56:00In your house, with your spouse, with your significant other, do you think, do you think you would not see the breadcrumbs that were more like instead of breadcrumbs that were boulders that were laying out for you in your house, the secret room, the, you know, leaving, the coming, you remember, there's, there are other witnesses that said they went to the house and one said, as I recall, that she saw a, so, yeah. I just do not buy, again, the whole ostrich, I just don't buy it to what degree. I don't know. Yeah. You saw what happened when, I mean, she didn't talk about pulp fixage, she didn't look surprised at all. Yeah. No, I mean, there's also a lot of shame that comes with accepting those sort of things as normal and then admitting to the fact that you saw these things, but didn't connect

57:01the dots for what they were. Now, it's one thing if she was, and I'm not saying she was, but there's been accusations out there of she was involved in some of the ass parties and things of that nature. None of that's been confirmed. That's just the accusations that have floated out there by, by other people. I mean, that's one thing if you're aware of, I mean, but I guess, I mean, let's just throw it out there. That's not illegal if someone, I mean, as long as you're not like involving illegal activity, if that's someone's lifestyle and that's what, what they're into, who knows, that's not illegal. And she could have been involved in some kind of dark shit that was not illegal, just, I guess, morally questionable to whoever is making the judgment on it. And if that would be true, that may just be the end of it. And she may think, well, this is as depraved as it gets, not really realizing it's dark and depraved as it really goes. Robin speaks though, they mean shame is a very powerful factor in what people will be accountable for and also what they will tell themselves and what they will accept themselves as they're moving through life to get through day by day.

58:05Yeah. And it goes to that self identity. So shame, self identity. If any of these things, any of his behavior has challenged that and challenged her decision-making process, especially she seems connected to her kids, you know, the thought of not being a good mother, not being able to protect her children from this, that is so hard for us to overcome and to face. So there's a lot of deniability going on inside and shame, again, shame is a powerful weapon. It is shame and fear. That is what drives the negative behaviors that we can sometimes inflict on ourselves and others. It's going to be interesting. With the fact that, you know, they got here a minute, you know, he was, you know, allegedly into this scene, if they catch others in this circle, would we ever know that it was connected to Rex? I'm wondering from an investigative standpoint in the background, do you think they were able to get more leads out of this whole scenario to hopefully take down others and would we

59:06know if any of that would be connected? You know, here men, I believe, was very private, yeah, I don't imagine he wanted to share and be in necessarily groups because he was smart enough and able to lure these individuals into victimize by targeting all by himself, and it was very, very good at his craft with all the different cell phones and how he crafts his trade. So when you look at that, I wouldn't expect any tentacles with somebody because he was so private and in what he did. Yeah. Now, I'm curious whether it got more hair. You know, he just, the fact that he appeared in later years to get sloppy because as time passes and you're not caught, I think you tend to get sloppy and also as law enforcement's techniques advanced, his techniques and didn't, I don't think as much as law enforcement

1:00:07was outpacing him. That's why he, one of the reasons why I think he got caught and so I'd be really curious is he got sloppy, you know, what other evidence do they have of other potential victims that they can start triangulating on? So I don't know. But I think, like I said, I think there's more, I'll be interesting whether they have any data that it'll help them try to locate them. Or is Rex the amazing one man show at the end of the day? I don't know. That's, that's the question. Your thoughts in the comments on Substack and YouTube, we'd love for you to weigh in and give us your thoughts and be sure to press subscribe wherever you're downloading podcast. If you've ever been to a new book, it's out, it's not all about me, get it wherever you get books, put it in an Easter basket for your loved ones. Give it to your children, say, kids, no eggs this year. You just get robins. Such a horrible gift, isn't it? Happy Easter. Get that in a lump of cold. Go make me an omelet. All right. And of course Jennifer Coffin-Daffer has always thank you for being here.

1:01:09Until next time for Todd Robin. And Jed, I'm Tony Brusky, we'll talk again real soon.