Giving it all up for food

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Imagine you've got a great job well-paid, prestigious, your family are proud.

And you walk away from it to chase a dream.

I thought if I don't do this, I will have lived a half-life and that is where the thought

came.

And then reality hits.

It was very, very dreadful.

The thought of going bankrupt was very vivid.

In today's episode of The Food Chain from the BBC World Service with me, Ruth Alexander,

I'm talking to three people who gave it all up for food.

I put on a hard hat and have high vision.

I physically built my first restaurants.

The professional kitchen, you started the bottom because I had a whole other career

before I was older than everybody else.

It has been for me with all of its ups and downs and unrelenting blessing and joy.

So let's meet our guests.

Nisha Katona owns Mogli Street Food, an Indian restaurant chain in the UK.

Before that, she was a barrister, specialising in child protection.

Don't know who set up a sandwich shop and later a bistro.

The Ali and Helsinki Finland left behind a career in engineering.

And Judy-Jew, the founder of Soulbird, a Korean fast food chain with outlets in the UK and

the US, started out as a financier on Wall Street.

So why give it up, Judy?

I was working ridiculously long hours and although I was paid quite handsomely in finance

and I was learning a lot, I just didn't have a passion for it.

I didn't really feel like I was creating anything.

I was just moving money around.

I think Nisha's previous job sounds very rewarding in terms of doing good for the world.

But I was really just leaving money from here to there and just scraping off fees everywhere.

And I didn't feel like I was building anything or helping anybody or doing anything that fulfilling.

So I always loved to cook.

I always loved food.

And much to the sugar in my parents, I quit and I enrolled in cooking school in New York City

at the French culinary institute and sort of doing jobs at magazines and restaurants

that I moved across upon to London.

And that's where I started working in restaurants.

And I started in Michelin-Stard restaurants and three Michelin-Stard restaurants doing fine dining.

And then I decided that I wanted to open my own place.

And it's been a very hard journey, I would say.

It's full of grit and blood, sweat and tears.

So you gave a lot of, Duke, what made you turn your back on civil engineering?

Actually, my backstory sounds a lot like duties as well.

I used to work for two of the biggest consulting company in Nordics.

And up to a certain point, I feel like I'm really, really fed up with my corporate life.

Because it's also a very long hours and also very stressful as well.

And food has always been there.

My parents used to own a really big restaurant in Hanoi in Vietnam.

So that is kind of like the environment that I grew up in.

And then I spent all of my free time trying restaurants,

traveling, enjoying the food culture.

So it has always been a big part of my life.

So at the end of my engineering career, I was asking myself,

okay, I want to make a change.

So should I do it 10 years later to now?

Or should I do it now when I'm still young and I got nothing to lose?

And Nisha, how about you?

I mean, child protection barrister,

a lot of people would think, wow, what a job you must have,

you know, really worked hard to get there.

So why give that up?

I did and I absolutely loved every minute of that job.

I feel I haven't worked a day in my life.

I have to say, you know, if you've got jobs that you enjoy,

you are really blessed.

What I realized is having been born in the UK,

once the first generation engines that came over,

once they leave us, they take with them a lot of these recipes,

a lot of these tried and tested spice formulas.

So while I was a barrister, I became very evangelical

about capturing those recipes and teaching them

to the brits around me.

And, you know, I didn't come from a business background,

to Indian doctors as parents had nothing but disdain for business.

And yet there was this thought that, look,

this food that people want to learn how to cook.

Maybe they would want to buy it.

You know, what, what Moglias is,

it's the way the Indians eat at home represented on the high street

and it wasn't represented in the UK.

And so this thought came to my head and it kept me awake.

I thought, if I don't do this, I will have lived a half life

and that is where the thought came.

And I wonder what the early days were like, Judy.

What was the reality having left the glamour, the glitz

and the long hours of all three?

What was the reality of a professional kitchen?

The professional kitchens, you started the bottom, you know.

And I was actually, because I had a whole other career

before I was older than everybody else.

And probably, you know, closer to age to the head chef

than I was to a comedy chef, you know,

this is in my late 20s, I was doing this.

And especially in the three mission star restaurants,

it's a little bit of a hazing, particularly back then.

This is pre-woke world also and pre-me too, you know.

So there was a lot of abuse in kitchens.

There was a lot of abuse and finance, you know.

You talk to people in ways that you would literally be sued now.

So in some ways, your career and finance,

my prepad you gave you a thickened skin,

ready for the kitchen.

Completely.

And I would say it, because I was working on the trading floor,

my bar for stress was so high,

because I was literally one of these people

that was screaming all day.

I had a time, my bathroom breaks,

because when the market is open, like you are running around,

like a maniac, I had, you know, 45 phone lines

in front of me, two handsets.

I had sat like nine screens, everything.

So when I got to the kitchens,

and everybody talks about like the high stress life

of working in Michelin-Saris kitchens,

I'm like, guys, we're making cake, we're making food.

If somebody gets their meal five minutes late, it's not great,

but the repercussions end in the dining room, you know what I mean?

Like, you're not going to implode an entire account, you know.

So my bar for stress was so high that I actually didn't feel

that stressed out when I was working in kitchens.

I just kind of kept my head down,

but literally I would be handed crates and crates of pineapples

or lemons or something, and a knife and be like,

okay, juice all these lemons, peel all these pineapples.

And like, so the really bottom of the wrong type of jobs.

It was hard to take, definitely, definitely.

But you know what?

I was like, if this is what I wanted to do,

you have to start at the bottom.

And I think it was a very useful experience

because if you don't learn what it's like to be

from on the bottom and work your way up,

you don't have that knowledge to understand

what it takes to make a dish.

Nisha, what were your first forays

into the professional kitchen like?

Well, I used to, while I was still a barista,

it was almost like doing a little exam

in how to build a business.

So one of the barista during the lunch breaks,

and after court, I would go and I would stand outside

restaurants and cafes and see what people were ordering.

How much were they paying?

Were people eating spicy things at lunchtime in the UK?

I would go and stand in professional kitchens,

belonging to people that I knew

and just watch what kind of kit they were using.

The pans are this tall and I was five thoughts

of how on earth, I have to have stools in my kitchens

for female chefs to look into the pans

and things like that.

So no, it has been a joy really in that way.

Duke, you were documenting your early experiences

on social media and in the first videos,

you seem full of excitement.

What was it like at the very beginning?

Well, of course, it's very thrilling

but also very excited at the beginning.

And it's kind of funny because I always start

that okay, now when I quit my engineering job,

I open my own business and maybe I can work less hours

but it turns out all the way around.

So before I got like a nine to five job

and now it's just turned into a 24-7 job

when I become a business owner.

So it was an absolute shock.

If your employee got some issue, it's my problem.

If the supplier doesn't deliver, it's my problem.

If the toilet's broken, it's also my problem as well.

So in that kind of sense, it was very different

from my previous life.

And did that take you by surprise?

Very much.

I know it was tough because I saw my parents

how they worked day and night

when they were running the restaurant.

And it was a massive one.

It was like almost 400 seats restaurant.

And I saw how chaotic and how busy it can be.

So I kind of have an idea, but still,

when you actually get your hands on and do all of those stuff,

it's a very different story.

Duke, I didn't have any restriatures in my family

but you saw how hard it was for your parents.

So what made you want to do it?

Well, to be honest, I just come very straight up

and say it's my passion

because even when I was working as an engineer

and let's say, for example, I go to a new country,

I go to Spain, I am not very much into the inside seeing

or seeing going to museum and stuff.

I go straight to their restaurants.

I just try all of the food there.

I spend basically 80% of my time trying food

and even my girlfriend, she's like,

but you should do something else as well.

We are very full, but I can be very full

and I can still go for a choice after my dinner.

And that's my kind of obsession.

So what did your parents think of this decision of yours

given that they knew the realities

of restaurant life, how hard it can be?

My mom was very mad at me to be honest,

like you know Asian parents, I think,

probably you didn't know this as well.

And engineering was, or engineers being like a prestigious

job in their eyes and working for big corporates

also another big thing as well.

So then when I quit, my mom was very mad.

She was like, no, you need to stop this,

you need to go back to your job

because this is not what we want you to do.

You're listening to the food chain

from the BBC World Service.

I'm Ruth Alexander.

This week giving it all up for food.

I'm talking to three people who walked away

from well-paid established careers

to pursue their dream of having a food business.

Korean restaurant chain owner, JudyJoo,

started out in finance on Wall Street.

Nisha Katona is a barista turned Indian restaurant chain owner

in the UK and Duke Nort made the leap

from engineering to sandwich shop ownership,

which did not go to plan.

Basically the business model is just really hard to work.

So one thing is that labor costs in Finland is very, very high.

So that push up the cost of the sandwich quite a lot.

Also the ingredient cost is also very high as well.

I have to sell a sandwich for 15 or 16 US dollars

to kind of break even and I have to sell 70 to 100 sandwich per day

to keep the business going, which medically doesn't work.

People were not queuing up in those sorts of numbers to buy a $15 sandwich.

Yeah, and if we try to find a location

that have a lot of food traffic,

then the rent is going to be extremely high

that we are not able to afford it anyhow.

So your location didn't work?

It wasn't the right location for a sandwich.

Exactly.

Is there a moment that will probably forever stick in your mind

where you looked at the numbers

and you could see that things were going badly wrong?

Yeah, there was a time at the end

that I was stressing out very much

because at the very end of the sandwich shop

I had around $2,500 US dollars left in the business bank account.

And I'm in like $20,000 US dollars debt.

You know, they're still bills to pay

and I have basically a tend of what I have to pay

left in my bank account.

That must have been, was that scary?

It was very dreadful.

You know, the thought of going bankrupt was very vivid back then.

And I gave up because I really want to make the sandwich shop work

but it just didn't.

And then that was the point when I said, okay,

we really have to do something different

because this concept is not working.

You didn't give up, you pivoted.

Yeah, big time, big time actually.

We pivoted to a bistro concept

because again, I've always loved wines.

You know, I'm in love with this European wine bar culture.

So that was like, okay,

if the sandwich shop is not working now

what should be the next thing that I want to try to do.

So I get that to try.

It works very, very well.

And then right after that,

I was doing my familiar training

and I'm also working as a full time familiar as well.

So it's actually turned out really, really nice.

So you have your own business that's doing well

and you are continuing your own education

within the restaurant industry?

Yeah, very much like Judy

because like when I quit engineering,

I have nothing on my CV.

I got an engineering CV and trying to make

my name in the food world

and people look at me, you know,

would have an eye and say,

what do you know about food to kind of do this?

So, you know, that is kind of like one way for me

to kind of prove myself that I will do it.

And if I put my mind and my heart to it

and I will do it.

But did you not take some comfort

and some confidence from your very heritage

because that is your pedigree, isn't it?

In terms of food, it's very interesting

because you're almost unassailable.

You come from a Vietnamese background

with parents who had a restaurant with 400 covers.

I mean, you're like a Vietnamese food guard

in my eyes just listening as a layperson.

Did you not get comfort from that?

I'm a kind of guy who actually like to put myself

out of the comfort zone

because for some reason,

I've always distant myself with Vietnamese cuisine.

Of course, it's my heritage

and I absolutely love Vietnamese food.

And I think it's always a very strong selling point.

If I do that, but because also one,

another thing is that Vietnamese food

is actually a very popular cuisine in Finland.

So, as like, you know, Indian food in the UK,

there are actually a lot of quite big Vietnamese community here

and many, many people try to do Vietnamese food.

So, I was just thinking to myself that if I cannot bring

an interesting enough concept about Vietnamese food

to Helsinki, then I would not do it.

I would challenge myself doing something different

because when you learn about modern cuisine

and the fine dining world, it's actually very intriguing.

When you have to put yourself in learning something new,

I find that very rewarding.

Duke, do you not find that you're engineering background?

Because I've been engineering background also.

Helps you tremendously in the way of thinking

of problem solving and coming through these challenges

and the way that you've opened up your restaurants, et cetera.

I do not find that you're leaning

on your engineering problem solving skills all the time

because I do.

100% actually, like, a lot.

And it's not just about problem solving,

but also I kind of start with nothing.

I really have, you know, I think like 5,000 euros saved off.

So, 5,000, it's like 5,500 US dollars or something like that.

Saved off from all of my years of engineering.

And it's not a lot.

So, I have to go through all the financial plans.

I have to talk to the banks.

And I think that my engineering degree

and my background as an engineer helps a lot on,

you know, getting this kind of papers

and this plan very own point to get the money,

to get it going.

If someone is out there listening thinking,

I might just take the leap, give it all up

to open a food business.

What advice would you each give them, Judy?

I would say that do it, but be fully aware

that you're going to work the hardest in your life

that you ever have.

And I completely agree with Duke just because, you know,

when you're working for yourself, the phone never turns off.

When you're working for these big companies, you know,

if you take vacation, there's somebody picking up your work

or whatever, you know,

if you are your own entrepreneur and your own business,

you are the only one, like the buck stops with you,

as they say, you know, so go in with your eyes wide, wide open.

You know, it is not super glamorous.

Like I, you know, I was literally my first restaurants,

like the potwash went down.

I was washing dishes, like you are in it, you know,

in a massive way.

And there is no job too low or too small for you to do.

And you have to lead by example, you know,

like when I would walk through my dining room, you know,

I would pick up the stuff the napkin on the floor.

I would, you know, get a screwdriver and scrape gum off

the bottom of underneath the tables, you know what I mean?

It's, like you have to do everything.

And then I have the sickness where I'm so detail oriented.

I see absolutely everything, like everything, like I see

a 0.5 font difference on a menu, you know what I mean?

I'm like, this is the wrong font size.

You know, it's, I would drive my staff crazy, you know,

but it's all in the detail.

And so do it, understand there's so much grit involved.

But also understand that every experience that you've had

before, if you're a career changer or, you know,

your education, you're going to be using it.

Misha, what advice would you give someone thinking of just

starting a fresh in food?

I came to the idea of starting a food business

at the age of 47.

And at that age, it's very interesting.

You've got a good perspective.

You know which battles to fight.

So your detail orientation is softened

and moderated by the life that you've led.

My view is if you can see that there is a gap in the market.

And if you're passion and your knowledge can uniquely fill it,

then you absolutely should go for it.

But make sure that second rope is strong enough

to take the weight of all your financial responsibilities

before you fully swing to it.

So I carried on being a barrister in the daytime

for the first four months of running my restaurant.

I would then go.

And as Judy said, you would put on, first of all,

I put on a hard hat and a high vision.

I physically built my first restaurants

because like Duke, like all of you out there

are thinking of starting a restaurant

for many of you, probably the best ones.

You've got very little money to do it with.

I was looking for coins down the back of my sofa

to build mobility.

But you go and you start at the very bottom.

You build it physically.

But do not give in that first job

and your mortgage payments and the way that you feed your family

until you know that second rope is strong enough to swing

to the world does not owe you a living.

And what's a great tale from Duke is the fact

that it might not work the first time.

And then you go again, the best entrepreneurs

and those successful ones have had five, six, seven

failed businesses and gone again

because that entrepreneurial disease will always adhere to you

and it will come good.

But you can't just open an ice cream shop

on a street full of ice cream shops.

Look for a gap.

It's got to fit your passion and your talent

and then go for it because the economy and the world need you.

We create jobs.

We create social capital.

It is really important that you listen to your dreams

and you know, really circumspect,

in a circumspect way, think about it and go for it

if you can uniquely fill that gap.

Duke, what would your advice be?

I think Nisha just said it so well.

I think that it's very true that I think it depends

on what's time and what stage of life that you're in.

I'm a bit younger than both.

So I think my risk tolerance in that matter is a bit higher.

You have to take your whole picture into account.

One of the biggest reasons why I stopped my job was because

I know that I have no liabilities.

I'm still young, I save my parents.

If I fail, I can still make it back.

But would it be the same if I am 40 years old

with two kids and a family that I would make the same decision?

And then like Nisha said, that you have to identify

your market, that is extremely important.

What you think interesting, it's not going to be enough.

You have to actually find, trying to find a market

that you can offer your product and people actually want it.

Not because you think, oh, this sandwich is cool

and I want to do it, that is going to work.

But you actually have to kind of find a product

that people are actually willing to buy.

And just a final question to all of you.

You gave it all up.

Any regrets?

Was it worth it?

For me, can I tell you, as a barrister,

I created no jobs and I paid very little tax.

I've now created a thousand jobs.

We've raised three million pounds for local charities

and charities across the world.

And I pay a lot of tax and I'm very proud of that.

I would not give it up for the world.

It has been for me with all of its ups and downs

and unrelenting blessing and joy.

So no, I'm absolutely passionate about it.

Three million pounds, that's four million US dollars.

Yeah, Judy.

I'm very glad that I made the career change.

I could have kept slogging away in finance

and I'd be much richer than I am today

in terms of monetary net worth.

But I'm richer in other ways.

And I think that there was many different ways

to measure success.

I have had this long-dying passion since I was born.

When I was born, nobody knew where Korea was.

Nobody knew anything about Korea

and I didn't grow up proud of my culture.

And so I very much had this goal of taking Korean flavors

to the world and educating people about it

and waving this Korean flag.

And I never thought in a million years

I'd be able to serve Korean food

at Madison Square Garden, you know, at City Field,

you know, baseball arenas, at Tottenham Hotspur.

There's nothing more mass market and mainstream

than arenas, you know, like baseball America's past time,

you know, like Premier League football.

The fact that we're able to serve Korean food

in these venues is mind-boggling, mind-boggling

where, you know, I was embarrassed to pack my lunch

when I was growing up, you know,

I didn't want people to smell the kimchi

or to smell the flavors of my culture.

And now I'm able to serve this

in some of the biggest arenas of the world

is a real pinch me moment, you know, yeah.

Duke.

Yeah, and I just, I have a big admiration

for what Judy just said.

I think that I'm working towards that goal

and I hope one day I can do what you do.

So it's very inspiring.

Sometimes I do question myself to be honest

because it's very, very hard, the amount of stress

and the amount of long hours.

And also, like Judy said, that, you know,

I actually got much less money now than before.

And in Finland, they are very cherished, you know,

this kind of work-life balance,

a big thing in Finland, but when you own your business,

you're absolutely gonna give this off, like 100%,

and there's no even question about it.

But what I cherish the most and what I really,

I'm really proud of is that now I get to build

a very good team.

I have really, really good people working with me.

I don't like to say it for me, but with me.

So it's the connection that I've built

outside of the engineering world

that have been the most valuable to me

and also all of the experience.

So yeah, absolutely no regret.

How is business now?

We're actually doing very, very good.

Are you profitable?

Yes, yes, I can, now is the point

where I can very comfortably say that,

yes, we are profitable.

So you can tackle the debt now that you still have?

Yeah, we have managed to go through all of the debt

we had, we didn't default any debts.

It took a lot of time.

And I have been working many months unpaid

to get to this point.

But fortunately, now we are financially in a good spot.

I'm really pleased to hear that.

And your mum was horrified initially.

How does she feel about what you're doing now?

She's quite proud of it.

Actually, she just visited me one month ago.

So she came to Finland with my brother.

And now I think she's very happy and she's very supportive.

So it was a big relief for me on that part.

You have your mother's blessing.

Yes.

And dolls.

Yes.

And Duke, I'm gonna add one more thing.

And Nisha, I'm gonna speak for you.

But you now have two new mentors in your life.

We are your big sisters.

So if you have any questions or need advice,

there is a word in Korean called Nuna's,

which means like older older sisters.

So please reach out to us.

Absolutely.

If you need to.

Well, amazing.

Thank you so much.

That's gonna mean more to me than anything.

I think that finding great mentors

is always one of the biggest part I love.

So thank you so much for saying this to me and Nisha.

That's meeting a bar in Helsinki very soon.

All three of us, I think.

Yeah.

And be strolling Helsinki.

That sounds amazing.

Oh, great.

I'm so pleased.

And we've brought you three together.

And best of luck to all of you.

Nisha, Katona, Duke Nul and Judy, Duke.

Do let us know what you think about the show.

And please send us your ideas by emailing

the foodchain at bbc.co.uk.

From me and the rest of the team,

producers Lexi O'Connor and Izzy Greenfield

and editor Sarah Wadson.

Thanks for listening and join us again next week.

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