Grace in Prison

0:00Thank you for listening to UPAI's Dartmouth podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPAI's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation but on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at thermapodcast.org. This is episode number 2660. It was recorded on September 9th, 2026, and it is titled Grace in Prison. The speaker for this episode is Rendi Lau.

1:07Good evening. I see some new faces who's their first time here. Ah, wonderful. Good to see you. So this weekend we have the Grace Compassion Training coming up, which is wonderful. Thank you, Rochi. Thank you for creating this amazing place where these kind of trainings can happen, bringing more compassion into the world. And it's an honor this weekend to teach with Rochi, with Sinda, and with Tony. They have been my teachers for many years, so it's wonderful to be able to be part of the team. And Grace is our foundational teaching from Rochi. It is a compassion training that Rochi developed. Initially it was created for clinicians, because Rochi saw a deficit of compassion in the medical system.

2:16It's a way for us to cultivate all the elements within ourselves in order for compassion to arise. It's now been taught to not just clinicians, but also caregivers, scientists, lawyers, teachers. And we also teach a lot in Japan as well. But most recently, we were contacted by the Cabinet Secretary of Corrections, Secretary Tafoya, to bring the Grace teachings to the penitentiary of New Mexico. To first teach corrections officers there. And so we decided in our meeting a few months ago that we would start with the cadets, the people who are starting to become corrections officers, before they go into the system, and teach them this system, this Grace training, in their core training, before they enter the system.

3:21Which is wonderful. And this relationship with the penitentiary of New Mexico started when Rochi volunteered there many years ago in maximum security on death row for six years. And then that relationship continued. And again, Sun Sen se, if you are listening to this, Secretary Tafoya said that he was one of his favorite volunteers in the prison. So that relationship continued and she asked us back because Jane Steinberg has been working hard as our prison director of the prison project. And she we've been bringing yoga and meditation to people, you know, to men in prison for many years. But this teaching corrections officers is a new thing. We've never done that before. And we were very excited to be able to do this. And we've done this now four times. So we've taught four cohorts of corrections officers cadets who, you know, hundreds, maybe like a hundred people.

4:40And we've been working for three hours each time during their core training. It's a Butzumon Tuck and Jane Steinberg and me. And we hope to just, you know, give them this tool so that they can think about compassion before they even enter the system. And then earlier this year, Butzumon had an idea to teach grace also to the men in prison. And, you know, we were trying to figure it out. And all of a sudden they called us and said, we're ready for you. We're like, oh, what? So just like two weeks ago, or three weeks ago. And we started a pilot system of pilot workshop to teach a group of men in prison and level three prison for a grace workshop that spans two and a half weeks twice a week for an hour each time. So five hours. And we went through the whole grace training in a condensed way. It was a group of about eight to fifteen men.

5:49There's a core group who comes every time and then there are a few people who are sometimes able to come, sometimes not. But they were a delight to teach. I didn't really know what to expect. You know, I actually have never volunteered in the prison before. So I just am starting. I just got my badge. And this training just started happening. So I was like, perfect. I would love to join this. And they were so earnest. They were so eager to learn. And just were honest in their process. And so we're looking forward to doing more there. So corrections officers and men inside. And there are two groups who are put in a system as opposites. Diomatically opposed.

6:51Set up by the system to see the other group as other. There are, you know, real and also perceived threats to each other's safety. So the threat combined with the power dynamics inherent in that system really heightens that other ring that happens between the two groups. So dehumanization becomes the default way of seeing in both directions. And this really fraught set up of the system. How do we bring more compassion? You know, compassion is really about rehumanizing the other and then acting from this place of non-separation. So in this system that set up a separation, how do we do that?

7:54You know, I'm using the prison system as an example because that's fresh for me. But the nature of, you know, a relative world is really dualistic. Our society, our world is so polarized, right? And, you know, this is not just the prison system. Is any human system in medicine and politics and medicine, we spend a lot of time in the grace training and other clinician trainings talking about how we can rehumanize ourselves and also the people that we serve. You know, this, these systems of separation is really just the human condition just multiplied, right? The condition of the unawakened mind in a large scale. But of course, you know, in the prison system is a channel ground that is, you really exemplifies this separation.

8:59Tuck and I really wanted to know how to serve in this system, the dynamics on how it works in there, in this particular channel ground. You know, given this precious opportunity to serve in there with both groups, we wanted to know if we're on the right track. So, we phoned a friend. We were having dinner with Rebecca, Rebecca Solnet, who was here for a few months as writer and residents. And she is good friends with Jarvis Masters. Does anybody know who that is? A few people. And she was able to set up a call for us. If you don't know who he is, he's a remarkable, remarkable human being. He's a Buddhist practitioner. This is his bio. I'll give you a, you know, so you know who he is. He's a Buddhist practitioner, a writer on death row.

10:06And he was at San Quentin, state prison in California. He had been there since 1990, convicted of a crime that he did not commit. A conviction that has been contested by legal scholars, Buddhist teachers and human rights advocates for many, many years, for decades. While incarcerated, he took vows, began writing, has become one of the most clear-eyed witnesses to what happens to human beings inside the American prison system. His books are that bird has my wings and finding freedom. So, look him up. He was a 43-year-old in San Quentin. He was transferred to the California men's colony in San Luis Obispo as part of the program that's clearing San Quentin's death row. So, we were able to get a call with him through Rebecca.

11:12In our conversation on the phone, of course, this phone call was interrupted frequently by, you know, the recording of like this call and your phone number will be monitored and recorded. And then every 15 minutes the call gets cut off and he has to call back. This has, has been all his phone calls since his adult life for 43 years. So, we asked him, how can we serve? He told us that the most important thing, the most fundamental thing is for both groups to hold onto seeing humanity in the other group. He recognizes that this is not an easy task. It's hard. Because in this system, people will act badly or are acting badly.

12:17But it's important to bridge and in his words, those two negative opinions. So, in other words, the most important element of bringing compassion to this system is rehumanization. In the grace training also, Rosy teaches us that compassion is itself not directly trainable because it's in these are rised spontaneously and within the context. Not a script, not a set way to be, but compassion is made of trainable elements that can be trained embodied and then it can allow for compassion to arise as appropriate action. So, actually much of the training is about first cultivating our attention, our attention balance, then recognizing where we're at, what we're holding, recognizing our conditioning, what we're bringing into the present moment and to this situation where we really want to serve and bring compassion.

13:43And also to recognize the causes and conditions that let us up to this point, that might be coloring our vision, our perception, and then let in go of these preconceived notions, our conditioning. Then we can, after we've emptied our opinions as much as we can, our wrong views, then rehumanization and compassion can happen. So, in grace, which we will go through in depth this weekend, so please join us online if you're interested, grace is an acronym. And G stands for gathering attention, cultivating that attention balance, also the first step whenever you learn meditation of learning how to bring our attention to this present moment and not be distracted.

14:46So, that we can be here because compassion can't arise if we're distracted and thinking about something else. Then the r of grace is recalling our attention, arousing bodhicitta, reminding ourselves of who we really are as aspiring bodhisattvas, and reminding ourselves that we're here to serve the situation and the person in front of us. And not just here for personal comfort or gain or self improvement. And then the a of grace is attuning to self and then the other, recognizing that what we're bringing into this moment, you know, all the causes and conditions, you know, are we hungry?

15:46The basic things, are we angry from something that happened before? Maybe we're not feeling safe? Or recognizing all of this before we try to attune to the situation and the other? Are we suddenly dehumanizing the other person by not seeing all of who they are? And however difficult the situation, they are also a Buddha, maybe a wounded one, but so am I. Then the sea of grace is considering what will serve from this place of rehumanization of inclusivity and openness. And asking that question that Sinda always asks, you'll hear this when you come to the training. What else might be true here?

16:50And then he is for engaging in that compassionate action, which might be stepping away, not engaging, because we're in this space of reactivity or the other person is, or whatever it needs to arise in that moment. And then the other is for ending. So that's what we will be talking about this weekend. So you can see inherent in the grace structure is this emptying and preparation process of recognizing our own responsibility in the situation and recognizing the biases we might be bringing in, you know, or the overt or subtle dehumanization that we might be engaging in of ourselves and the other person. And as I was thinking about this, I was thinking about Anguli Malah, anybody who know who that is, a teaching a story from the Poly Canyon.

18:01He I'm not going to go into his whole backstory. There's a lot to it. But his name means it's kind of gruesome. Garlands of fingers. I'm not going to go into the whole thing, but he supposedly he killed 999 people. And he wore their fingers around his neck like a garland or a necklace. And but through this amazing meeting, an exchange with the Buddha, where he actually at first was trying to kill the Buddha, he was able to lay down his weapons. And he asked to be ordained. The Buddha ordained him the next the same day. And then later on, he became one of the Buddhists and lightened students and recognized as a our hot and enlightened being quite remarkable change in, you know, flip in the story.

19:11The part of the story is quite well known. And it speaks of the power of repentance and vow and ordination. But there's a second part of the story that I love. So Anguli Malah the monk after he's been ordained, he's, you know, one of the the Buddhists, close students, you know, they go on arms, arms round, you know, begging for food every day. And while he was out one day, he came upon a pregnant woman who was an agonizing labor and was not able to deliver. We all know how dangerous that is, right, that, you know, both mother and child can die. So he returned to the Buddha and asked for help. He recognized the diurnist of the situation. The Buddha instructed him to go back and perform an act of truth. That's when you say a truth that is so truthful that the power in this truth has the power to heal.

20:17And the Buddha instructed him to say, sister to the pregnant woman, since I was born, I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth, may there be well-being for you, well-being for your fetus. It would have, you know, the Buddha set told him to do this, right? So he's, you know, it would have been easy for him to say, okay, sure. I'll go and do this and, you know, heal the pregnant woman and slide by this kind of partial and truth. But instead, he corrected the Buddha. He said, but Lord, wouldn't that be a lie for me? I have intentionally killed many living beings. So the Buddha said, oh, okay, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, you know, we'll make this right. So why don't you say, sister, since I was born in the noble birth, meaning ordination as a monk,

21:20I do not recall intentionally killing a living being. Through this truth, may there be well-being for you and your fetus. So Anguli Ma said, okay, I can, I can do that. That's the truth. I, you know, since my noble birth, an ordination I haven't killed anyone. So he went back and did this. And the woman was saved. She was able to deliver this new life into the world. So the whole story is, of course, remarkable and apocryphal, a serial killer becoming an enlightened being. But the part I really wanted to lift up is this part where Anguli Ma was taking responsibility so courageously that he corrected the Buddha himself. Not letting this partial untruths just slide by, you know, and but holding oneself fully accountable.

22:26In a way that it's not shaming or blaming, but just truthfully about one's truthfully accept one's actions. All the mistakes and harms that were, that we have caused. And that way in the story, allowing for a new life to come forth. Rochi said and I quote, transformation and accountability coexist. That the turning does not cancel the debt. That bearing the consequences without retaliation is itself the practice. These are not contradictory positions. But they accent the teaching differently. So I feel that many of these wonderful students in the Grace class in prison are actively working with this.

23:40The self-selected group of men were wonderful students. In our class with them, they were so open, so honest about where they're at. I know this wouldn't be true for everyone in that system and the wider prison population. But this group, the self-selected group, were really ready for the work. And wanted to learn. They shared openly about working with anger, working with regret, working with blame and remorse. And in this group, there was a young man, probably the youngest in the group. He told us that he was there because he shot and killed someone. Probably, you know, a common story in prison.

24:41He was there because of a complicated web of causes and conditions. You know, he grew up in the inner city. Hi there. Are you okay? What's going on? I'm not sure. Okay. Let's, let's flip you. Don't get up. Don't get up. Let's turn around. Yes. Thank you. You can cut her off. And now put it. So we just had somebody faint. So we're just dining. Who's our ear? Physician is handling it. Bless her heart. We're really having enough water. It's important. Somebody fainted this morning in Zazin, too. So it's like. Watch the. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

25:41Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's just take a moment and sit. You

26:52you you She's g'd I have no idea where I am, but...

27:52Shhh! Um... Something about, huh? Oh yeah, the young man. So we had a young man in the group who... was really honest about where he's at. I was saying that he, you know, was there because his shot, he shot and killed someone. And he told us that on that fateful night, he was, you know, out drinking and doing drugs, which, you know, was what was modeled for him. That's what he was doing in the inner city. And someone was... this guy who was just very aggravating and kept going up to him in saying disrespectful things, pushing him. And he had a gun on him. He, um, didn't want to shoot the guy.

28:52He remembered this. So he shot at the sky. But then the guy kept egging him on. And then in his drunken... drunken state, he just couldn't take it anymore. Turn around, shot the man, and that's why he was there. He's been there for four years and looking at a much longer sentence. And his questions and comments were kept coming back to how do I deal with this cycle of anger and regret? This intrusive thought keeps coming in that, you know, why did the man keep pushing me? I didn't actually want to shoot him. And then why did I let him get to me? And it just keeps happening. And these intrusive thoughts include thoughts that, you know, of himself defaluing his own life.

29:53And also the person that he shot and is dead. So the other men in the group, um, who had been inside for a long time tried to help him. Many, you know, have gone through the same face of anger and regret. And they talk about it. They say so. But they also talk about coming to a place of taking responsibility of their past actions and also coming to self acceptance. And also self love. Imagine talking to, you know, a group of men in prison about self love. I was blown away. And they all come to this and vow to do better. And that's why they're in the class. They wanted to learn to become better or be better. So learning from these men's sharing.

30:57I realized that atonement is about fully taking responsibility of our actions. It's really about rehumanizing ourselves. To ourselves owning our own humanists. So it's a precondition for rehumanizing our views of the other. In fact, you could say that rehumanizing other is rehumanizing ourselves or the other way around. And we do this through a continuous practice of atonement. Rochi says in her upcoming book, Ae-Hedogan placed extraordinary emphasis on atonement, and ethical responsibility. And the verse of atonement, all my ancient twisted karma,

31:58was fully about, was for him not a preliminary to practice, but practice itself. These words do not seek excuses. They do not deny harm. They begin with acknowledgement. Dogon understood atonement not as self-condemnation, but as awakening itself. The moment we stop defending ourselves, we become available to transformation. And then Dogon says this is from the Nishijima Cross translation in the Fasako Shouaku Makusa. As regards what you have already done, to have done what you should not have done will create remorse in you. Even so, do not ephate such feelings.

33:01Since facing them will, in turn, prove to be a strength for you, a strength that arises from your training and refraining. So this is why atonement is woven into our forms, in every prostration, in every bow, and the verse of atonement is in our liturgy. It's always chanted before we receive any of our precepts or take the house. We chant all my ancient twisted karma, from beginningless greed, hatred and delusion, born of body, speech and mind. I now fully atonement.

34:02And looking this up, this verse that we chant, I realize that it actually came from the avatamsaka sutra. I wanted to read you this part. This is Samanta Badra telling the young Sudhana about atonement. He says, Thus, when empty space is exhausted, when the realms of sentient beings are exhausted, the karma of sentient beings is exhausted. When the afflictions of sentient beings are exhausted, then my repentance is exhausted. But because empty space and even the afflictions of sentient beings are inexhaustible, my repentance has no complete end.

35:05Thought after thought, continuous and uninterrupted, body, speech and mind without weariness. From there you can see the relationship between atonement and vow. Both are inexhaustible, creations are numberless, right? Also delusions are inexhaustible. That's what we chant. So atonement and vow are a match pair, one without the other is meaningless. So Rebecca, Solnit, if you're listening, and if you talk to Jarvis, what an honor to speak to you Jarvis.

36:05And we wish that one day you'll be able to visit here as our honored guest. So I wanted to end by retelling a beautiful story that he told us about rehumanization in our phone call last week. So Jarvis was telling us that when he was over at San Quentin, there was this one guard. He used to, he said, he used to taught me. And he would open up the tray port, the port where you put the tray of food through into his cell. And he would stick the lunch tray into the port hole. And then when Jarvis goes for it, he would just pull it back. And he would do this over and over again to taunt him. And of course, in Jarvis' mind, you know, he was thinking, I can't repeat, but lots of expletives.

37:09You can imagine it's very frustrating and humiliating. And he would just do this over and over again. So one time when he did it, Jarvis says he looked up at him through the lunch, the port hole. And without any aggression, he said, I know what you're doing. You're not being nice. And the cart just broke out laughing. And the next thing you know, Jarvis said, he gave me the lunch tray and gave me 10 other ones. And he never taunted him again. Jarvis said, I don't know exactly what it was. But I just didn't bite into what he was doing. I think he wanted to be seen. And when I called him out on his behavior without aggression,

38:13he stopped. So Jarvis said, you've got to put your ego to the side. Not reacting and continuing that cycle of aggression. And seeing the other as human and allowing them to see you as human. And I'll end with one last thing that Jarvis said. We were just, you know, having a conversation and something about the word practice came up. And how, you know, Rebecca was saying how she loves this word because it's a continuous thing. It's not like we can just arrive, right? It's a continuous practice. Just like atonement and vow are inexhaustible so that it becomes an unending practice. We can't just arrive.

39:15And Jarvis, who has lived through so much more than most of us have. He said, if I've arrived, I'll just start all over again. If I've arrived, I'll just start all over again. That's our bodhisattva vow. So let's aton and rehumanize ourselves. Take full responsibility of our humanists, our thoughts and errors. And then vow to start all over again. So we'll chant the verse of atonement and then the four fows. So we'll chant the verse of atonement and then the four fows.