The Measure of Our Humanity: POSSIBILITY

0:00Thank you for listening to UPAI's Dartmouth Podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPAI's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation but on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at thermapodcast.org. This is episode number 2659. It was recorded on August 30th, 2026. And it is titled The Measure of Our Humanity, Possibility. The speaker for this episode is Rebecca Solnet.

1:11Good morning everybody. So wonderful that we're able to do this particular session online and also here in the Zendo. And this will be the case for Frank Ostescki. And I believe also for Terry Tempest's films, but maybe we'll figure things out all the time as you know. And it just brings me a lot of joy. Kodosan, don't run away. It brings me a lot of joy to introduce the director of UPAI, Kodos Roan Sensei. And you have some announcements I think. Hi everyone. Welcome to UPAI. We weren't sure how many people were going to be coming. So we set up 120 chairs and people will still probably be coming in.

2:14And we're joined by hundreds of people online. So welcome to all of you in person and online. This is generally an online only program. But Rebecca Solnet is here as a writer and residence for a few more hours before she drives back to California. And we're so grateful for her joining in person and making it possible for you all to come. So welcome. And I wish you will say more about Rebecca, I think. But I just wanted to thank you all for being here. And for the generosity of so many that have made this program, the measure of our humanity, and so many of our online programs possible. Because we offer all of it freely for whoever wants to join. And we just ask that just whatever you can give from the generosity of your heart to continue to offer these programs freely. And so that we can give our teachers something to to help continue their work in the world. Also, I forgot to mention that our program today will be interpreted simultaneously by a wonderful Marcus Tellus

3:16and our Portuguese team, Portuguese speaking team. So thank you, Marcus and Jeannie and all of you there. So if you want to watch it in Portuguese in person, that's a little bit harder. But online, you just click the interpretation button on the screen and select Portuguese. So thank you all so much for being here. And, uh, where she and Dynan. Thank you. Thank you, Kodo. I think many of you know that, um, when the pandemic closed our lives, something else opened for us, particularly here at UPAIA. And again, I want to credit Kodo and also Petra for introducing us and initializing this capacity to invite a Mahasanga, a really wide community of people from all over the world, into connection with practice and with learning.

4:18And also with the sense of social responsibility and how we meet a world which is so complicated. And that year is 220. We started this socially engaged Buddhist series. So this is our sixth year of doing it. And, uh, I mean, we're, we were all in lockdown. And, um, our good friends, the Mahasanga who are, you know, hundreds of people are online right now. Hundreds of people began to join us literally from all over the world, from, you know, maybe as many as 150 different countries. And accessing, since we made everything free online, accessing these extraordinary teachings and events. So that, um, you know, people could in perpetuity, um, bring themselves into this kind of learning process with us.

5:23But also it is a call. I'm a social activist and I have been since the mid 60s. A rattle rowser. And, um, I have never hesitated in my 84 years, but, you know, it was like I started, um, in, in my youth around, when I was around 10 and kind of lots of things happened when I was young, which were pretty devastating. And I just began to realize that, you know, as a woman body person, but a person who had been cared for by someone who, um, was not in the same color skin that I was. With such unconditionality whose mother had been a slave and I just didn't get the injustice. Why? And so that fired me, you know, for the next almost 80 years. And I still carry those questions. Why this injustice?

6:28And that's why the series for now six years has been really about the measure of our humanity. Who are we in the world? How are we being called to live in a world that is so complicated? Where capitalism, sexism, racism, hatred, but greed, hatred, and delusion, the kind of fundamentals are operating so visibly in sanction now, as we can see, and tolerated. That's the thing that really gets me. This kind of moral apathy that, um, has arisen more and more visibly in our society and other societies at this time, as our attention has been colonized by the corporate world. In many different ways. You know, I have a whole thing about this and you guys can listen to me anytime. I'm sorry. I can get into this for a long time.

7:33Because I'm in my ninth decade and excuse me, I'm concerned. But I'm also further excuse me. Sorry. I'm pissed off. So this series has been a very important series this year in 2026. And actually, Rebecca and I had a short exchange and I'm with Molly Crockett and some other of us. You know, we're looking at the series next year around sentience, around artificial intelligence. And, uh, anyway, we're building next year, but we're in this year. And I tend to kind of build into the future because honestly, my own health has been very much at risk and it continues to be. And I feel like there's no time but here and now. And it's really important for us to not think of later, honestly.

8:39And I've been working on this book and the later problem, like later racism will be over later Trump will be gone. And you know, later I can make my bed. We're in another. We're in another thing, totally. So, you know, before Rebecca, we heard from Beeku Bodhi and boy, talk about a month laying down, you know, the ethics and the word in a way that is completely uncompromising. And the essential we not compromise our values in the world today. And that is one of the things the middle path doesn't mean compromising our values. It is a way for us to actually find the way our values can express themselves in the spirit of non-harming, but of realization of people waking up.

9:43And then my good friend, Frank Ostesseski, later will be here with us October, sorry September 20th, I believe it is. And our work in the truth of our mortality is right in our midst. And earlier in the series Tara Brock talked about imagination. And something both Rebecca and I have spoken about extensively. I tell you, it takes imagination to see a world that is healable. And we, you know, I'm saying use it, cultivate it. Don't let the lack of imagination paralyze you. Let your imagination open to what Rebecca is going to be speaking about today. Each of the themes that we articulate, we just gave one word and it is possibility. And that is the point. We really curtail our possibilities. But through a lack of imagination, a lack of initiative and a lack of moral energy falling into the grip of moral apathy.

10:58And we can do this. Get out of it and move. And it is important. And I've talked, you know, many, many, you know, hours about the importance of solidarity of doing things together to benefit the greater good. So I'm not giving the lecture today. So I'm going to get off my soapbox. But I just want you to know how deeply I feel about what we're being called to wake up to and do. And also get over the petty stuff. Really. I just think about what happened in Nepal. Really, we have friends who so far we don't think we have lost direct people in our circle. But our direct people in Nepal have lost people. You might be one or two people away since there were many non-Napales who were met by what is considered to be a climate disaster.

12:07This wasn't just the breach of the dam. It was a breach of our values, a breach of how we live. And the effects are just nightmare-ish to consider. So as we enter into this exploration together, again, thank the hundreds who are online for being here and the hundred of you who kindly register. Thank you for doing that. Just because we're a little place and can only hold so many people. The fire marshal's respect us so far. So we really thank you for doing that. And I'm going to invite Dynand to first invite some of our online people. We'd love to kind of see where people join us from around the world. So if you put in your watershed, your bio region, the traditional name, or the city, the town, the piece of land that you're on, and we'll just call out some of them. And then I'm going to ask you all some questions. We can thank you all.

13:15We have so many people from all over the world right now. We have 800 joining us online. We have John from Finland, Katie from Ireland, Deborah from Boulder, Scotland, Vivian from Scotland. We have Michigan, Albuquerque, Kitty is in Albuquerque, Socaro, close by, Bade, Hi. She was just here last week. We have Susan in Ecuador. We have Maitri Sara in the UK and Birmingham. We have Stephanie in Sweden. So many friends from all over the world. Betsy in France, Tara in Portland, let's see Liz in Mirbige, Anton in Brighton, UK. Wow, we have some Canadian friends, Kuyah is in BC, High Kuyah, and Daphne is also in Canada. Let's see what else. We have a lot of Canadians.

14:25We have a lot of Canadians. You know why they're online. Yeah, they don't want to come here. Yeah. We have a lot of friends from the UK. Pip is also in the UK. That's like the tenth one. And Wales. Yeah. And in Belgium. Wow, so wonderful to have so many people from all over. Now we have 812. They're actually in that camera right there. But we look down here because we see all your squares down here. So if you see us looking down, we're looking at all your faces from all over the world. So beautiful. Wow. Switzerland everywhere. Yeah. I'm just sort of curious, who in the room is from Santa Fe? Almost everyone. Who in the room is not from Santa Fe? Oh, wow. Who hears from Texas? One person. Wow, only one person. You're from me, they're in the Plaza. Or they're online. We have lots of friends online.

15:36Just from just a minute. Who is from farthest away? For this away. Okay. All right, Paris. Wonderful. Susie is from. And Susie from Australia. Yeah. And where else? Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. But they kind of know. No, Ecuador. Yeah, who else? Who is back there? That's your from here. You're from here. Some of our residents are Germany. Yeah, Germany. Wonderful. Yeah. You know, this is one of the beautiful things. We were, we're, you know, we came global during the pandemic. And also I just want to thank the people who are not from this country who came to this country. We're in, we're in a state. So what I'd like to do is just kind of state shift, if you will, invite Dynand to bring us into a little field of practice. And yeah.

16:52And then I'm going to introduce my beloved friend and occasional next door neighbor, Rebecca, but Dynand. Let's put our stuff down if you have things that you're holding. And you can uncross your legs if you have them crossed. Feel your feet on the ground. You can close your eyes if you'd like. Hands on your lap, if you'd like. And for the first few moments, just feel into how the earth is holding us. All the places in your body that's connected to the ground through your chair, your feet on the ground. And then your spine rising up from that steadiness of your lower body.

17:56Feeling that strong back of your spine holding you up, feeling of dignity, of strength, repursive feelings. And then the openness and softness of your front, strong back, soft front. And then for a moment, recalling why you're here. Why you're here to hear our dear Rebecca, talk about possibility in this complicated world. And then embodying this possibility, possibility of goodness, possibility of alleviating suffering, possibility of bringing healing to this world.

19:14What does that feel like in your body right now, this possibility? And you embody this possibility of goodness in your spine, your upright spine, the strength in there. And your openness to imagination. And then your breath deep in the body. And then without opening your eyes, feeling this community here, both here in this room, and also the 800 plus all over the world.

20:25All here to learn and be together, to feel the possibility of goodness. Knowing that you're not alone in this, that there's a whole network of aspiring bodhisattvas all over the world. And you feel that in your body, in your breath. That solidarity of goodness. And for the last moment of this practice, we give all that is coming out of this practice.

21:36And for the last moment of this practice, we give all that is coming out of this practice. And especially those who are affected in the Paul and Tibet. We have one more breath together, thinking about all those around the world who's also taking this breath together. Thank you. I'm filled with tenderness and joy introducing Rebecca.

22:46I met Rebecca many years ago when she joined our nomads clinic. And I realized I was meeting many people in one. One is a woman of immense courage, who has no hesitation about speaking truth to power. Two is a woman whose mind is structured like I've never met a mind structured like hers. How many you know Rebecca? Right. She's different. Her difference is of great benefit to us. Because she thinks in the most important dynamic that is in our world of Buddhism. And that is she thinks in pattern, in relationship, in connection.

23:51She has written more than two dozen books and she threw another one together here and encouraged me to write another book that I didn't want to write. Just by having her proximate, she has influenced the lives of so many people. And I just have to say that having someone of her magnitude of heart and mind, but also her reach into the world. Thousands upon thousands of people read her carefully, listened to her deeply, because her voice is a voice of sanity and also a prophecy. So Rebecca. Okay, aren't you? I also want to say she has been at Zahsad every morning. She's been a writer and resident here for almost three months.

24:52And last year for another month or so. Her faithfulness in the Zendo is beautiful to us see. And it's just thank you. Thank you, Rosy. Thank you, Wendy. Thank you, everyone. Hello, residents. Oh my God. I'm too loaded up to do things properly. But it is wonderful to see you all here in person and in Zoom. Hello, Portugal and Brazil. Hello, dear friends. Zen family. I'm, you know, this place is beloved community like Martin Luther King talked about. I have these wonderful days here where, you know, I wander across the place maybe from this building over to where to Rosy's house. And it's like a neighborhood running to different people for different conversations. And I want to particularly thank the residents whose dedication, discipline, warmheartedness, practice has just been such a beautiful and kind of reinforcing part of being here.

26:04And so hello, everybody. I wanted to start by talking about where we are because I'm struck. Are you coming to adjust me Noah? Yes. Okay. He's allowed to do this because he's actually my nephew. A floppy necklines are hard on microphones. Necklace is, however. No, it's not done. All right. We're going to go. Okay. Let's see. Further up. How's that? Sounds like everyone can hear me. So I'm always struck when I come into this building or the zendo where we sit every morning and afternoon that we're inside a wooden box with wood in all directions.

27:11We're inside the bodies of trees here with the planks of the floor and ceiling visible in a way they aren't even in the wooden houses that I live in in San Francisco. So my own home is redwood structure, dug for floors, lathe and plaster, Victorian walls, but not quite as visible. So I want to start by saying a word about trees and our relationship to them and maybe also express gratitude to the plant kingdom that counterbalances are doings on earth, shelters us, feeds us. Most of what we eat delights us, gives us the paper for every book and I know with our publishers and writers among us. And trees are carbon storage. They take carbon out of the air and when you make something like this, I'll building that my live for hundreds of years as an architect to build or you've engaged in carbon storage. When you're a writer or a publisher, your books become carbon storage in the library on the shelves.

28:15So trees made this world. If you could imagine time travel, okay, we've all seen silly movies. We can imagine time travel to about 66 million years ago. You would run the risk of being crunched up by a time-and-a-source wrecks, but you'd be on an inhabitable earth with maybe little nocturnal mammals who are oldest mammalian descendants scurrying around. If you go back about 300 million years ago, you'd hit the carboniferous when plant life ran wild and flowering plants did not yet exist, but the kind of tree ferns and horse tails and things like that, we're all turning into peat, which would turn into coal, which we've been madly burning up for the last 200 years. So the plant pumped so much oxygen into the air that it wasn't like what we have now, which is about 21% oxygen. It was 36% oxygen. If you know what it's like to go up to the altitude, well, we're sort of at altitude at 7,000 feet here.

29:19With Rochy, Wendy, and Noah, I've been up to 17,600 feet and the air is very thin. 36% oxygen, you'd feel sort of drunk with power and everything kind of just grew riotiously. But if you go back to about half the lifetime of this planet, there's really nothing but one-sailed organisms, and you wouldn't last more than a few minutes because we don't have an oxygen atmosphere. Blue-green algae had just begun the photosynthesis. Blue-green algae had just begun existence, and would just begin the photosynthesis that splits water molecules off and puts that oxygen into the atmosphere to create our oxygen atmosphere that we live in. And ever since then, those blue-green algae, trees, plants, et cetera, have been doing this work of returning oxygen to the atmosphere, making the planet that we inhabit.

30:25They're, in terms of sort of terraforming, they're much more powerful than we are until maybe climate chaos, which I think of as the war against the trees. Plants made this world, they made us and all the oxygen breathers possible, and until very recently we lived in symbiosis with the trees. We added modest amounts of carbon dioxide by burning stuff, and we exhale carbon dioxide with every breath. Plants, on the other hand, exhale, so to say, oxygen, and every breath you take contains oxygen that's a gift of these other kingdoms of life, the plant and bacteria kingdoms. In his book Fire Weather, the climate journalist John Vallean notes that fire is an oxygen reaction, and we have it on the altar here, and that perhaps this is the only planet that has fire, that has this oxygen reaction, there would be no fires on Mars, because it is not an oxygen planet.

31:26And, you know, my friend Sam Green's forthcoming documentary I'm working with him on, he interviews this extraordinary black botanist, I think in Charleston, who says that trees and sequestering carbon dioxide must have sequestered our own exhales, and I think what she was hinting at is in the south where so many black people were written out of the record, don't have written histories, genealogies, etc., perhaps their breaths are in the trees, their histories in the trees themselves, their presences in the trees themselves. Trees hold memory, invite us into deep time, and I can say that a zone who stood in Nevada's Bristol Count Forests high altitude where the trees live for up to 5,000 years, and is someone who recently visited Utah's Panda Forest that is the world's largest and oldest organism, 106 acres with 40,000 trees that is really one underground being constantly renewing itself with new shoots that we call Aspen Trees.

32:35It's estimated to be between 9,000 and 16,000 years old. I'm going to talk about beginners' mind in a minute, and I think that's also about wonder as a kind of open-mindedness, and trees always bring me to wonder. So just as a tree sinks its roots into the darkness and reaches its branches into the light, so we benefit from them in countless ways. When you step into a wooden zindo to pay attention to your breath, remember where breathing started, and remember to be grateful to the trees. Forest grasslands and peat bogs still continue to sequester a lot of the carbon dioxide we produce by burning fossil fuel, along with the ocean which is also sucking up our carbon dioxide, which is acidifying it. So, and I think of climate change as a war against the trees, I think of the more than 15,000 acres of forest still burning just north of here this month, as in a climate chaos-fueled conflagrate.

33:43Oh my god, this is... why can't I say that word? Yeah, I know. Yeah, what they said. I sometimes get tongue tied up here. This is the place where I'm really good at language. My fingers are smarter than my mouth and more fluid. So I think of the smoke we tried not to breathe during those weeks of wearing masks, turning on air filters, closing windows, thinking of the way that the wildlife, the deer and the bears that are coming down from the hills, the rabbits and the meadows here, didn't have those options. I think of the particulates and myelons and yours from the years of climate-fueled wildfires we've had out west, and from all the fossil fuel we've burned all our lifetimes, and further back. I think our job is to make peace with the trees, and maybe this peace begins with the love and recognition and gratitude to the plant kingdom, to this living world that gives and sustains our lives.

34:44And with wonder that an atmosphere was made by life itself that made us possible. That was sort of a big prelude from your climate activist friend, and with all these disasters, the forest fires, the heat waves, what just happened in Nepal that's probably killed more than 2,000 people, the heat waves in Europe that killed more than 2,000, 20,000 much more subtly and quietly this summer. I think knowing how it all works is all of our responsibility, but onward to the actual kind of more zen, maybe that was in. A talk which begins as so many of the Dharma talks in this place and others in centers do with a coon. There's a very well-known coon, there's riddle-tail, so expressive of zen's embrace, of paradox and conundrum. It's the 20th entry in the Book of Serenity as translated by Thomas Cleary in the 1980s.

35:50It describes an encounter between the head of a temple in the mountains and a wandering scholar, come by some accounts in from a seeking refuge from a snowstorm, a tense century snowstorm in the mountains of China. Whether it's so often a secret force in history and everything else, unaccounted for variable and what happens and why, here's the exchange this snowstorm led to. And my Chinese friends in the audience forgive my pronunciation, like I said, my fingers are so much smarter than my mouth. Design asks, Fian, where are you going to? Fian answered, around on pilgrimage. Design then asked, what is the purpose of pilgrimage? Fian replied, I don't know. Design said, not knowing is most intimate. But if you go look up that last line, not knowing is most intimate, you find lots of zen quotes and reflections on it and the coon,

36:56because that not knowing gets at something at the heart of zen. The curious thing is when I went back to where I first ran into it in the book called Most Intimate by the Village Zendo, Abbott, Enkyo, Patohara, a friend of Roshis, she footnotes it to Thomas Cleary in the book of Serenity, but in the editions in the, you pie a library just through that door, the little carpens think we keep here of books. Design doesn't actually say most intimate. Cleary translated as nearest as in not knowing is nearest. In Jerry Shoshin Wix translation in the library, the whole book is called the Book of Equinamity, the names are Gizo and Hogan, and the phrase reads, not knowing is the most intimate. Some of these accounts say as a result of this exchange, Fian became enlightened. Can I pause a moment and say how completely wonderful and weird and unexpected it is that we're still contemplating a brief conversation between two sages in a snowstorm,

38:05more than a thousand years ago when the United States was inconceivable, when Buddhism in the West was inconceivable, because they didn't really know there was a Western hemisphere in the Eastern hemisphere, when maybe women holding forth as equals in a Buddhist monastery, or almost anywhere was inconceivable to a lot of societies, when live streaming would have seemed like supernatural monstrosity. And maybe it is. So here they are reaching out from their world into ours across the centuries, across the millennium. Remember that unimaginable, the inconceivable is not impossible. We all the exceeds assumptions all the time and sometimes shatters them. And we live in what was utterly unimaginable to our ancestors, even in many ways for those of us who was old, what was unimaginable in our childhood.

39:07You know, the past teaches us that we live in that unimaginable and even impossible future, which should help us to know that the world is forever changing and more futures that we have not imagined are coming. Often our own lives were unimaginable when we were kids. How many of you are living lives that nobody told you you were allowed to live, could be possible, were who you were supposed to be, etc. I know some people in this room were married to people, they weren't allowed to marry until 2015, and so forth. There's so much room for not knowing, and the past teaches us historical not knowing. But back to our co-on, the two different translations remind us that we who don't speak the same language as design and fire, don't know exactly what they said in the sense that something has always lost in translation. I don't know which English word intimate or nearest is more accurate to the original,

40:08what design thought not knowing made you most intimate with or nearest to, but I know that it fits with in a larger body of Zen teaching that encourages you to proceed with an open mind in order to perceive reality itself. Shun Riyosuzuki-Roshi, the founder of San Francisco Zen Center, where I first began to do these Zen things, listening, practicing, taking the precepts with my teachers and cable-anched heart men. Anyway, Shun Riyosuzuki-Roshi famously called this beginner's mind, declaring in the beginner's mind or many things, in the expert's mind but one. As a former emergency room doctor, my friend in Upaiya's vice-sabot who you just listen to, Wendy Lau or Dynan, has a vocation for bringing the Dharma to fellow medical practitioners. And one version of the workshop she leads with Clay, another doctor here, they participants are instructed to answer, I don't know, over and over to a series of questions.

41:12As someone who myself is supposed to have answers to everything and anything, including some of the really bizarre radio and on-stage things I've been obliged to do, I can understand how unsettling it must be, how counterintuitive, how it breaks your training to say you don't have an answer again and again. Doctors in particular are often expected to not just have a diagnosis but a prognosis. You have this disease, injury, condition, and it will be cured, he'll respond to this treatment on this timeline. Except that they don't exactly. Patients don't want that uncertainty about what's going to happen with their bodies. In the same way the broader public doesn't want uncertainty so often about what's going to happen in the country, in the government, in the world, in the election. But the future remains uncertain regardless of desire. When it comes to health, doctors are not prophets. When it comes to politics, historians are not prophets, and neither are journalists,

42:15neither are even TV punters contrary to their own confident delusion and pollsters. So like those of us who study the political moment, we address what seems possible and likely, possible and likely, not inevitable or impossible. And the possible, my assigned topic here, which I embrace wholeheartedly because it's another name for uncertainty, which is inseparable from hope, is about the right realm between the impossible and the inevitable. People who pretend they know the future, pretend that everything is either impossible or inevitable. And there's a wonderful thing that one of my favorite congressmen, Damie Graskin, said, he first ran for office, they said it was impossible for him to get elected, and then when he did get elected, they said it was inevitable, he would be elected. And he said it was never impossible and never inevitable politics is the art of the possible.

43:16So they're templates when it comes to medicine and everything else for which common and likely. But they're not what's inevitable, and one person will die of a cancer that another will recover from. One person with a broken neck will never walk again. And another, through luck and mystery and effort, will walk down the road towards you, to greet you two years later, as an astonishing woman from Dole Poe did to some of us in this room in 2017. And she might have been a one in 10,000 or more chance of recovering, or ability to walk. A story I need to write up as part of some of our adventures there. Diagnoses are in a sense assessments of how an individual case might fit into a category. But one of the refrain I go back to again and again is categories are leaky. A doctor friend taught me the same. And I have to say, people love categories. All Jews support Israel, all Muslims support.

44:21You know, Hamas, all black people are like this, all queer people are like that, all trans people are like this. And it's such a fucking heap of bullshit. Categories are fucking leaky. And there's sometimes help us understand reality. These sometimes help us deny and abuse reality and the people we stuff into categories they don't belong in. A doctor friend taught me this saying and taught me it this way. When you see hoof prints, you say horse, but sometimes it's a zebra. I looked it up long after I'd been using it and found out that the well-known originals from Dr. Theodore Woodward, an important infectious disease expert who said it differently, when you hear hoof beats, think of horses not zebras. It is usually a horse, but zebras do show up from time to time. So I'm something 99 percent, let me say something 99 percent fatal will leave 10,000 out of a million people alive.

45:26That's a pretty huge herd of zebras. Usually when people ask us a question, they're not hoping will answer, I don't know unless there's any teachers. Not knowing might mean among other things. Arriving at an understanding is quite different than arriving at an answer. And maybe that's a difference between probability and certainty or inevitability. To me, some answers close the doors that questions open. And what you see through that open door is very often complexity, uncertainty, possibility, unpredictability, ambiguity. No matter how much you know, your knowledge is always in island in a sea of unknown and unknowable. And the waves of that ocean are always lapping at your solid land. We should always recognize the fluid ever-changing ocean as well as the primators of the solid ground of our knowledge. Here's another one of those beloved Chinese Buddhist anecdotes with more of my terrible pronunciation.

46:31Daiju visited the master, master basso in China. Baso asked, what do you seek? Enlightenment replied Daiju. You have your own treasure house. Why do you search outside Baso said? Daiju responded, where is my treasure house? Baso answered, what you are asking is your treasure house. Daiju was enlightened ever after he urged his friends. Open your own treasure house and use those treasures. This seems to say to me that the question itself is the treasure house, the desire to know, the question that lies at the heart of sincere questions, the quest that is a kind of pilgrimage, the pilgrimage in which in some sense the journey is the destination, the inquiry, the state of paying attention to reality, and knowing that you don't know is what matters. The great German poet Rainer Maria Rilke famously said the same thing more or less in a letter to a young poet writing,

47:39I want to ask you as clearly as I can to bear with patience all that is unresolved in your heart. And to try to love the questions themselves as if they were rooms yet to enter or books written in a foreign language, don't dig for answers that can't be given yet, you who cannot live them now, for everything must be lived. Live the questions now, perhaps then someday you will gradually without noticing live into the answer. Beginner's mind is open door mind, expert mind, in this sense is closed doored mind, but I don't want to disparage experts as such, since our doors it takes expertise even to recognize to journey to and perceive let alone open, and experts in so many books I've read, so many people I've listened to have opened so many doors for me. I think expert in this other sense means both you know more about something and you know how much more there is to know that no matter how large your island is,

48:47the ocean rolls beyond it to the horizon. Whereas I think expert mind in Suzuki Rochi sense is knowingness assumptions, habits of mind, answers at closed doors we need to keep open rather than a body of knowledge. You have to leave the door open to the possibility that it's a zebra, and I think of that custom on Passover, of leaving the doors open through which the prophet might come, and maybe the hungry will come, the door open into the unknown, and what it was like as a kid sitting at a house with all the doors open including the front door when people never just left it open, and you know so there's a lot of treatment of political possibilities as though there are inevitabilities, open doors as closed doors, as though nothing but horses will ever show up, as though the future will look like the present only more so,

49:47and we see constantly the pundits, the people who pretend to know the future assuming that something in the present is will only enlarge in power and impact, not that history zig-zags, backtracks take sudden turns, stumbles, moves like a river with oxbows and waterfalls and frozen passages rather than this kind of march forward. After the 2024 election there was this pretence at the sudden surge of right wing positioning in the vote was permanent, and now the US was just a right wing country. Trump is now falling below 30% of support, and a lot of the people who voted for him backtracked things. Suzuki Rochi was also once asked by a sort of shame-faced student, can you sum up Zen in one sentence and he said without missing a beat, everything changes. And what that means in the political world and the historical world is that things that are not visible at a given moment suddenly become tremendously important,

50:52movements, voices, visions, catastrophes, economic crashes, etc. There's probabilities, but there's no inevitabilities. My hopefulness was formed by these zebras, these unpredictabilities, by the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the Tatarian regimes of Eastern Europe in 1989, which was unforeseen by anybody, including those participants in how suddenly and totally it happened largely through non-violent organizing, which is constantly seen as powerless, even as it remains incredibly powerful, by the fact that in 1989 Nelsen Mandela, who's supposed to die in prison with his life sentence, was released, nobody foresaw that he would become president of a post-apartheid South Africa before that, and the timeline on which it would happen. You know, when I watched a few years later the transformation and the non-native consciousness and this continent hemisphere around the presence, the history of Native Americans,

52:02how we recognize them, how they've assumed presence and power and participation in public life, we claimed land language ceremony in ways that were unimaginable in say 1985, the land back happening in California is astounding. I've seen the change of the status of women from the incredibly profoundly misogynist world I was born into. I'm a San Francisco and I'm proud of that. I'm proud to be from the city of Harvey Milk and Cleve Jones and a transhistoric district. I'm proud to see how much understanding of gender, sexual orientation, and has changed also in my lifetime. So those are the zebras and that there were things that were seen, maybe they were horses, but we're seen as zebras in that they were not anticipated, not expected, and seen when they began as outrageous and possible unlikely, and then they became things that fell into law, became normal, and for one of the striking things about being old as meeting young people born after these changes, who don't know how profoundly we changed the world,

53:20what the world was like before feminism, before queer rights, before this indigenous resurgence, before a language to talk about the environment, before a kind of anti-authoritarianism in every social setting from the family and marriage to schools and education and employment and everything else. So I want to talk a little bit about one of these moments in which how we think about the world really mattered. I was a passionate anti-war activist with my affinity group, Badass, which stands for Bay Area Direct Action, Secret Society in 2003, 2004, 2002-2003 against the Bush War in Iraq, they were building up to, and then the war broke out in March of 2003, and the people around me fell into despair. They started with one truth thing, we did not stop the war, and then they proceeded from there in a kind of tail spin of sort of hypnotism, self-defeatism to go from the truth thing into a false thing, we didn't change anything, which was not true.

54:34I think the war was delayed, its nature was changed. Some countries, I believe Turkey didn't let us use airspace because of popular protests later, Spain with Drew because of popular protests in that country. I believe that delay may have given Iraqis time to prepare to survive, etc. So I went from the truth of we didn't stop the war until we didn't do anything, we have no power, we've never had power, we will never have power, we can never do anything. This kind of absolute collapse of belief in ourselves, belief in non-violence, belief in popular protests, belief in the powers that civil society has, and meanwhile the Bush administration marched into flu, into bombed into Iraq with confidence that violence is tremendously powerful, they were supposed to be welcomed with flowers, they were supposed to be a cakewalk, supposed to be over in weeks. I think the whole thing is to remember as the Sixth Month anniversary of the war in Iran, Reminds us how fucking stupid that was.

55:42Our lovely Simon who left early or this summer was a resident who loved it when I curse up here and I just have to say it is my nature. So they hadn't learned from the Vietnam War, how often violence is what you use when real power, the power of persuasion, alliance, etc. has failed. And of course the Vietnam War did not conquer the Vietnamese people, we lost that war with incredible amounts of weaponry, you know, lives lost, etc. And so I wrote my original essay that Spring that became the book Hope in the Dark trying to counter that. And so you know, I really tried to describe that change works in much more unlikely and unpredictable ways and that we have to know that we don't know what's going to happen.

56:43And often that what is happening is unfolding over longer periods of time involves indirect consequences that will matter tremendously. You know, you know, that is not simple. People often describe changes though it's just kind of 2 plus 2 equals 4 math formula when it's some kind of complex and mysterious algebraic equations that never end often. And so you know, but the funny thing is I think the people around me also did something that I see happen all the time. They change the real power we have, the power participating and changing the world, which requires us to live in a world of possibility of not knowing for a fake power that we don't really have the power of knowing the future of knowing what will happen. And the dangerous thing about that and I see it among the comfortable, the safe, all the time around climate, around politics, around human rights, everything else.

57:43If you pretend that you know what can and can't happen, if you pretend the future is made entirely out of impossibility or inevitability, you've excused yourself from acting. You've stepped off the stage of history. You've given away real power for fake power. And I've seen that. I've been an activist for a long time, largely thanks to my brother David in the early 80s. Been a climate activist for a long time. I've seen campaigns like to stop the KXL pipeline bringing fossil fuel from Canada to new findaries in the US. Unfold over a dozen years during which people on the sidelines told us it was the wrong issue. We'd never win, etc. Those people never show up after you win to admit they were wrong. They're too busy telling somebody else to give up to surrender. We have no power. We'll never win. And so much came out of the keystone pipeline activism. Not only did we shut down a pipeline, we educated people, including me, about the role of pipelines and the fossil fuel industry, its profitability and climate change.

58:50We inspired other people elsewhere to take on pipeline struggles. And when then we built incredible alliances that would become important later between rural agricultural indigenous and climate activist communities. And so these things matter. And so I want that open door questions for us all rather than the closed doors of bullshit answers, of fake certainty, false prophecy, etc. Sometimes when I'm particularly obnoxious, I say to people who tell me what can and can happen, it's like, wow, what an amazing gift. Do you bet on the horses? You know, so you know, Rochie gave me the word possibility. And which, you know, if you turn it over, is uncertainty, which if you turn it over is hope, which I think is nothing but a commitment to try and realize the best possibilities resist the worst possibilities.

1:00:00Because the only hope that matters is active hope and gauged hope. Optimism is not hope. Optimism is sitting back thinking everything will be fine. As though you know, just like pessimism, doom, or ism despair, assume they know what can happen. And you know, as part of what I'm trying to say is that astonishing things happen. And I want to go back to the rock war because I had the most astounding conversation a few months ago. I have yet to produce an article out of it. But I will probably as soon as I get home after this exciting 1,600, 1200 mile road trip. I'm going to start later today because these talks get me all revved up. And normally they're evening talks. And then it's like, what am I supposed to do at 10 o'clock at night? With luck, I'm driving to flags staff staff after this. So wish me luck. And but so I have this absolutely brilliant and amazing friend. We've been friends, I think throughout this millennium.

1:01:01My friend, Antonio Ujas, who's an oil policy analyst and climate journalist. And we're just talking on the phone. We're old school. Young people may not know just the beauty and joy of random long. Meandering conversations on the phone, the way that we used to have them, you know, phones are not just for texting. But and then the course of it, I don't know how it came up. She said, the Bush administration came in even before they came into office. They had a blueprint for invading Iran. They really wanted to invade Iran. They thought about invading Iran. The reason they didn't invade Iran or part of the reason they didn't invade Iran was that the anti-war movement and the unpopularity of the Iraq war partly due to the anti-war movement, which was huge and global. For those who weren't there, there was a February day in 2003 that was the single biggest day of protest and this planet's history.

1:02:06All seven continents, including scientists, holding up signs in Antarctica, people in the great majority of countries. The reason they didn't invade Iran was because of this belief, this commitment, this showing up, not knowing what we would do. There's a line by Foucault, the French philosopher, that more or less runs. It's very zebraish. You know what you do, but you don't know what you do, does. And so those friends of mine who gave up and despair, and me, myself, who was a lot more hopeful and but also a participant of this protest, we may have stopped a war we never knew about because so much of what we do in the world particularly with the movements I've been involved in is what doesn't happen. The immigrants that don't get deported, the immigrants and refugees, the trans kids who don't get terrorized, the women who have rights, they didn't have before.

1:03:14The forest that wasn't cut down, the river that wasn't damn, the kids that didn't get asthma from the inner city, the incinerator that wasn't built. And so here was a war that didn't happen in the bushera because of us and we never knew it. And I think you have to proceed with a sense of the profound mystery, the unknowability of what you do. And it's something I've lived as a writer because books, everything you write is a message in a bottle. You don't know where to wash up and who will read it. But I would guess I've heard from far less than 1% of people who went back I know because like the math we will not get into involves large numbers which I'm bad at. But I don't know, you know, I don't know what my work does except when people tell me and a tiny percentage of people have told me. I remember years ago with my bookmate explained things to me. One woman told me she got married because there's an essay in there about marriage equality that changed her mind about it.

1:04:23So she married her female partner, another woman divorced her male partner because the title essay made her realize she didn't have to put up with that stuff. But I might not have ever met them. You never know what your work does. You know who reads your books, who picks them up and I also love books because somebody might read them a month, a year, a decade, a century later. And here we are reading what got written down about a conversation between Chinese sages in a snowstorm in the 10th century. So you know. So I'm big and I'm big on possibility which is uncertainty which contains the possibility of hope. And when do Barry once said we don't have the right to ask whether we're going to succeed or not. The only question we have a right to ask is what's the right thing to do. Which I love because it's not about what I think Suzuki Rochi would call gaining mind which is about outcome. It's about kind of living on principle.

1:05:33And you know, here's another example of our glorious friend uncertainty. Where there's uncertainty, there can be informed guesses about the probabilities. One known risk before Trump decided to attack Iran was that Iran would shut down the state of Hormuz. And so they did when the current administration attacked them. And that was a sort of indirect but foreseeable and foreseen consequence. But that had a really amazing unforeseen consequence. The Trump administration is all about fossil fuel to the extent of spending billions of your tax dollars in mine to pay off contractor to stop them from building offshore and onshore wind power which is cheap clean, sustainable, localized power. So and while providing massive subsidies for their dirty stuff and even forcing some communities to reopen or keep open coal burning plants which is the dirtiest most climate destructive way there is to produce energy.

1:06:43Now that we have a true alternative in a way that was absolutely unforeseen at the beginning of the millennium to produce the electricity on which almost everything can run. Solar is now the cheapest form of electricity. We've ever of power we've ever had and it keeps getting cheaper and it keeps getting better. There's kind of no reason to build any other kind of power and the great majority of power we're building is now solar and wind. The future is coming the Trump administration in every possible way is trying to march into the past. But shutting down the straight of hormones to this absolutely amazing thing and made much of the rest of the world sit realize that not only is fossil fuel climate destructive, not only is 70% of the world net fossil fuel importing countries which means they're dependent on geopolitics. They realized this is a deeply unreliable thing. When I was you know like 10 years ago really annoying people would always try and tell us like it was a brilliant new idea that did you know that the sun doesn't shine at night and the wind doesn't always blow and like I'm proud to be a Californian because after China we have the biggest array of batteries to store that solar power which means that the sun now shines at night because we store our huge excess of energy.

1:08:08We store our huge excess of solar during the day and then it goes back into the system from those batteries at night. If you're reading or you know doing something at midnight in California that requires electricity the sun shining at night on you. Nobody understood how profound how effective how great the renewable revolution would be because at the turn of this entry solar and wind were these very expensive utterly inadequate technologies and we had an invisible revolution because it was so wonky and technical and incremental. Like a lot of the biggest revolutions of our time kind of escaped the detection so that people don't understand quite how revolutionary it is. So countries like the Philippines many European countries many parts of the world are greatly accelerating as a result of a war between two fossil fuel powers their transition away from fossil fuel. That's a kind of irony history gives us that I think is so exciting and so wrapping this up in case you didn't think I would.

1:09:15Let me quote one of the great climate leaders of all time and one of the unlikely ones the 15 year old girl on the spectrum who rather than continue to despair about climate sat down alone one day and stalk home with a cardboard sign which of course everybody would have told her would amount to nothing because what is a 15 year old sitting on the sidewalk with a cardboard sign amount to in her case that I mounted to a global youth climate movement and her elevated to a status where she got to tell off the United Nations global climate conferences et cetera and became very upsetting to Peter teal and rotate and Elon Musk which is a kind of girl power I can get behind. I'm refraining from talking about the fifth most popular tweet in history which is Greta Tuneberg destroying Andrew Tate but you can look it up great moments and feminism but Greta Tuneberg said this incredibly beautiful thing some years back she said avoiding climate breakdown will require cathedral thinking we must lay the foundation while we may not know exactly how to build the ceiling.

1:10:26I love that metaphor so much and I was a teenage medievalist who used to know a lot about you know I was about the great cathedrals of Europe and they are often took centuries to build and often both the aesthetics and some of them transition from moment as to Gothic and Gothic was partly about the structural engineering of flying buttresses which allowed them to offload the weight which allowed them to have those great luminous stained glass windows. So they were building something that was changing as they built it kind of like everything else including your own life. So you know it's such a beautiful metaphor of everything and how we have to live because your life our society something we're building without knowing what all the factors are what the new resources will be what the renewables revolution will allow us to do about the climate crisis which is to leave the age of falsehood. So you know so cathedral you know cathedral thinking I think is also our own lives I mean how many of you I think I asked this before most of us are living lives that were inconceivable for us and people particularly if you're queer or female or non white you know or you know in some other way marginalized people told you you couldn't be all these things and you couldn't do all these things and you know what I mean.

1:11:52So you know all these things and people like you would never be presidents and leaders and have power and you know and do anything so. So and you know and it's interesting thinking about that metaphor as for the climate situation we you know this building a future we know is possible but the technologies change the politics change the understanding so we know what the technology is changing. Change the understandings change and so among the complexities of the climate situation is that we cannot save everything which is often because not only do people love their airtight categories but they love their absolute anything that is not entirely good must be entirely evil anything that's not inevitable is impossible if we can't save everything we can't save anything but we can't save. I was at the Paris climate treaty one of the great historic moments I've been lucky to live through with a press pass in the front row as our friend Christiana Fliiguerre who talks here sometimes led 196 countries to agree to this profound transformation of everything and I always say if you could get 196 countries to order pizza together that would be remarkable.

1:13:17But what people don't know because we're approaching 1.5 degrees of climate change and a lot of people think that's a cliff we fall off. Paris was supposed to set the threshold at two degrees of possibility but there's a group of people including my friend red constantino from the Philippines a climate activist and dear friend who essentially used a lot of incredibly creative non violent organizing including getting the Vatican on the Vatican on board by persuasion to change it from two degrees which they knew was a death sentence for a lot of the global south and the island nations in the south Pacific to 1.5 degrees. That's an arbitrary threshold. We will pass it it will be heartbreaking you can continue to be hopeful with a broken heart every tenth of a degree we shave off warming means more species more places more human beings don't go through that catastrophe we just saw in Nepal the fires we just saw in our own home country here in northern New Mexico so we can't save everything but we can save some things.

1:14:30Another great metaphor kind of like cathedral thinking I was very involved in trying to cover what really happened in Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath. And one of the beautiful things that happened is the day after the hurricane not the not not the natural disaster of the hurricane but the man made disaster of the levees breaking the opposite of cathedral thinking building shitty levees and not maintaining them not really caring about the poor mostly black people who couldn't afford to evacuate in a mandatory evacuation not addressing you know a lot of a lot of vulnerabilities. There was the day after Katrina put 80% of New Orleans underwater there was bumper to bumper traffic of people with boat trailers trying to get into the city even as they're being told that these people were dangerous were moroting hordes were were looting which was mostly trying to get stuff to survive after people had lost everything and that beautiful spirit nobody launches a parogue of fishing boat a canoe a plane.

1:15:40A canoe a pleasure vessel into a place where tens of thousands of people are stranded thinking they can save everyone but they know that they might possibly be able to save someone or maybe several someone's and I think that like cathedral thinking is a metaphor for who and where we always are we don't know you know if we don't launch the boats we can have the certainty of not saving anyone but if we do launch the boats who knows who will save the boat. Who knows who will save and what they'll do in the world you don't know what you do or you know what you do but you don't know what you do does we can build a cathedral even though we don't know how we're going to complete it or if it will be completed and in a sense the cathedral that is our species our civilization our planet is never finished we can build a cathedral a piece with the trees a cathedral of possibilities a cathedral in which everyone is welcome because as our Bodhisattvas from Dolly Parton to Zoran Mamdani to Bad Bunny show by example is what we're working for is what I heard an old woman at Occupy Wall Street say 15 years ago we are fighting for a world in which everyone matters

1:16:59in which everyone matters and nothing is separate from the greater Kestrel Hall because a cathedral of life is also the symphony of life because each of us is a musician in it playing a bit of the great song that never ends and I'll end with Angela Davis he said you have to act as if it is you have to act as if it were possible to radically transform the world and you have to do it all the time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:18:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:19:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:20:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:21:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:22:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:23:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:24:07Thank you. Thank you.

1:25:07Thank you. Thank you. I'm sorry. Dolly Parton gave us a last well her music will live for centuries but gave us this last gift which is well so many of us felt compelled to stare at the incredible ugliness and cruelty and violence and divisiveness of the Trump administration of the wars of the climate chaos of the tech companies in their greed and their will to destroy the climate to destroy everything She made us all spend a lot of time earlier this week looking at kindness, generosity,

1:26:13inclusivity, her anti-racism, her support for trans and queer communities, her feminism, her joy, and et cetera. And it felt like this reprieve from what we've been looking at to contemplate dollies. So I think that answers in some ways. And now I'm seeing a lot of people do kind of what would dolly do, which I think is a good Buddhist mantra to live by plus make up. And here, now we've met the real dolly lot more. Are there questions as our time marches towards the... Say, Rebecca, do you remember that great quote by Windelberry? Know the facts, but anybody would call that. That's it. Say again, play.

1:27:15I think it's your main joyful all know you. Yeah, remain joyful, although you know the facts. Yeah, I think we're in a time also where this regime wants us to feel powerless, defeated. You know, they actually, like the gospel songs said, don't let nobody steal your joy. They want to steal our joy. And so joy is resistance in a sense. And I think that one of the ways we win is by being more kind, more warm, more fun, more accepting than the other side. So, you know, be joyful though you know the facts. But you only know, you never know all the facts. And I don't disagree with Barry, but there are lots of unforeseeable things. I see people despairing about this moment in history, assuming that changes have, you know, like there's a lot of resistance, but it's slow and steady. But that doesn't mean it will always be slow and steady. That may break out in some completely different way, something else may happen.

1:28:17We don't know what's going to happen, so we only know some of the facts. But we know a few things about joy and we have a question over there. If there's, yeah, we should take at least one person online. Yes. And, uh, Dine, and if you would kind of choose that person, so. Yeah, and we have great. We could do one now and then there's one in the, the, the, in person. Yeah, let's hear from Karen over my Miller. Okay. I'm mute you. I'm mute you. Go ahead. Yeah, this is brief. Um, I've got to know some of the water protectors in Minnesota, because I live not too far from there, but a wonderful thing happened because of it. The old Carnegie Library in park rapids was the Enbridge office. And when they were done, the native community got it. And now it's a community center and the um, treaty museum. And I cannot pronounce the name. So I was, you know, that was a joyful thing that happened to our area that after all the,

1:29:20all the problems, something wonderful has happened with community. So, good. So. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Another person in the room. Yeah, we just. Going to essence were. Thank you. First of all, and um, there's a song called Joy's Resistance by the Resistance Revival Chorus. I actually recommend their whole listen to everything of them. They're really good. I, I two things. One, um, to your question about the body, I wrote a whole book about that. Um, called Kinship Medicine. And I bought a copy for, uh, to gift to you. Thank you. Rebecca. And, um, it part of it also that you didn't mention. And I wonder if you would speak to that is space for grieving because I think that's another thing that our administration doesn't want to give us. And specifically space for collective grieving.

1:30:24You know, I think when we eat our grief and we don't have space for doing it. And even like that example that you told of your badass group kind of devolving, um, you know, what people perceived as despair might be better labeled as grief. And collectively being able to grieve and then come back together despite that grief is also another way through, I think. So I wonder if you can speak to that. I think that there's a thing that happens all the time. I see an act, you know, which is a people mistake their feelings for facts. You can feel I have total respect for despair as an emotion. It should never be confused with a political analysis. And so, you know, we had this whole kind of movement of climate dooms. Who kind of blew me away because they would be like, I am full of angst and woe and grief

1:31:24because everything is hopeless. And they hadn't really done the work to know the climate facts. And one of the things that's been very weird is like, I know a lot of climate activists. I'm on the Board of Oil Change International and Third Act and, um, have been, you know, etc. The younger climate activists, real leaders nationally and internationally, have had a baby boom over the last 10 years. So hearing people who don't know a lot about climate saying, I can't have children because we're doomed while the people who are most intimate with the climate crisis have it. For me, those climate people are people who do not confuse feelings for facts. And I think mourning is, you know, if that's what people are doing, they can do it. You can feel heartbroken but hopeful. You can, you know, there's an old wobbly saying, don't mourn organized, which a lot of us have revised to say, you can mourn and organize.

1:32:24It's not an either or. And so I think those are, you know, some of how I think about it. And I know that's a bit ferocious, but it's me. An uprocious note, it's appropriate to end. We have, I just want to thank Rebecca. You make a wonderful neighbor I have to say. She likes my cooking. I like your conversation too. And, you know, again, all of this is not possible without you being present. I mean, it is so important that there are people who really care about what we have chosen to touch into. And then we, in Zen, we say, Mujo don't know a tiger, which means actualizing the way in your everyday life. How, you know, do we bring forward whatever we have learned from each other in this setting and the other settings that we have brought ourselves to to actually make a world

1:33:29that is sainter, a world that is more beautiful. And I think it would you coin, but I might be wrong revolutionary joy. Nope, not me. Well, I think it's just out there. So, you know, I want to also espouse revolutionary joy because it is an act, if you will, against the current administration. And it's important. And I also encourage you to give generously as possible on making it possible for us to, you know, gift Rebecca with your kindness, but also how we're able to actually do this at UPAI. There's so much under the hood that happens that people don't see. And I thank you so much for thanking the residents because really the heart of this place rests in the deep practice the residents actualize, literally not just day after day, but literally minute after minute. And it's so, it's so helpful your support. So thank you.

1:34:35Usually we chant the four vows. We can do that if you don't mind. Can you imagine the grace of winning the World War? Yeah. Well, yeah. Thank you. So, we have, you know, we have this amazing program happening in September. The grace training and also that is led by myself, Senator Russian, who's the top ethicist at UPAI, Tony back, another extraordinary clinicians and Dynand Lyle on compassion training. And then Frank Austin, Sasuke and I do this incredible thing, love and death, such a powerful weekend. And all of this is in this bigger program called the Corona Circle. We have just a few more openings where you can come in for the actual 10 days and be in the resident body and also have time to explore Santa Fe, be in the body of practice, and also be part of those two events. So thank you for your life. And we always really cherish

1:35:43yes, Kodosov. Just to emphasize that the next measure of our humanity is belonging with Frank Austin Sasuke in person. So like with this one, we'll put out if you'd like to join to come and just join us for that live. Yeah. Yeah, it's 20th of September 11 in the morning. Also, like this one, we actually have limited registration is to make the fire marshal happy. So these are the four body shotgun valves and many of you know them, some of you don't. It's a sing along.

1:37:49Thank you. Aspiring bodhisattvas, actualized bodhisattvas, and particularly for translating this into Portuguese for our friends in Brazil, Portugal, and other speakers of Portuguese. Have a strong and clear, beautiful rest of your day. And also maybe let Rebecca or Rebecca and I kind of escape, escape. Two introverts with personalities. Out we go. So here, but you can stand and Rebecca and I are going to go this way.