Have you heard the claim that our Founders were not Christians?

0:00You have probably heard it said that the founders of this Constitution were public these United States of America are were deists and they were not Christians and this is a much touted idea taught in many universities and just about all the public I call them the Dr. Nation Centers they call them schools and anyway all over our culture there are people who believe that the founders of these United States were not Christians were not true followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and the accusation usually leveled against them is that they were deists I know that there's some who are so foolish to actually say they were atheists that is an absolute non-starter because there's no evidence for that whatsoever and so we want to address that question this is don't in by the Kool-Aid on your host

1:05pastor David Whitney I serve as the senior instructor at institute on the Constitution and with him is my wonderful co-host Dr. Brian Shelley welcome doctor yes sir it's good to be here well this question is one that should be considered by every American because it makes a world of difference whether our founders were actually Christians or not some people say wow it doesn't really matter you know they believe something or other what they believe no it does matter and it matters deeply because what they believed and what they put on paper tell us that they believed that there is a creator God declaration of independence opening paragraphs and they believe that that was the god of the bible not some moon idol worship by a billion people who follow Muhammad in his writings or the you know hundreds of millions or billions that follow the 300 million Hindu gods it's the god of the bible they were referring to there is a creator God secondly our rights come from him and from him alone they do not come from government and they

2:11do not come from any human being or any human institution they come from him alone and thirdly that the only purpose of human civil government is to secure protect those god given rights so it makes a huge difference if we say that our founders did not believe that the god of the bible and his word the bible was the source of where we know not only where rights come from but what our our rights do we have a right to murder recent trial here of a woman who murdered and she had committed she murdered all three children with her own hands on purpose not by mistake and their people say she's innocent eleven of the jurors say she's innocent well it makes a huge difference if you deny that murder is wrong which I guess the eleven jurors all deny that murder is wrong and that you don't have therefore a god given right to life this makes an enormous difference so it is critically important that we determine what it was that our founders actually

3:16believed Brian what is your your research and take on this yeah well the constitution and Christianity are under attack from leftists because they are based on biblical principles anti-Christian pro-Marxist historians like to rewrite history to make it seem like our nation was not found in our biblical principles and that's not what the historical records say it's one of the easiest straw man fallacies to knock down which are we've done previously on this broadcast many times but forty-nine of the fifty-six members of the constitutional convention were affiliated with the major Christian churches of the day the largest number were Anglican then followed by Presbyterian congregationalists but and of the fifty-six individuals who signed the Declaration of Independence twenty-seven of those guys had what would be a seminary degree today that's true Thomas Jefferson then Franklin would be us however Jefferson didn't help craft the constitution

4:22and Franklin motion to sign the document in his last public speech in September 17 1787 and above his signature were the words in the year of our Lord so in 1813 John Adams were the letter to Jefferson and said the general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity the U.S. Supreme Court said in 1892 our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon an embodied the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind and that's Jesus it is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian so Christianity and the Bible weren't obscure concepts there were seen as the moral cultural foundation that made the whole American experiment work and the founders understood that freedom can't survive without

5:28truth and devout Christians in the country and so the Constitution was based on these principles you get the three branches of government limited government checks and balances all of this constantly Bible and Brian agree with everything you said but I question two statements there that Jefferson and Franklin were deists now there was a time in Jefferson's life well and also in Franklin's life when they were deists but by the time of the Constitutional Convention clearly Benjamin Franklin was not a deist let me explain because we hear the term deism but we don't necessarily understand what that means first of all it means there is a creator God the deists agreed with Christians there is a creator God the major difference for the deists was well that creator God stepped away from his universe after he got it started you know he kind of wound up the clock and got it running but then he steps away from his universe he has nothing to do with his universe from that point of creation onward by the way the deists believe that the creator God

6:33established all the physical laws of the universe and all the moral laws of the universe so the creator God established the law of outshelved not murder and so on so they would agree with Christians in a great deal but they would disagree with Christians that God is involved at all in the affairs of mankind and what happens here on earth they would disagree with Christians therefore that God answers prayer they would argue forget pray to God because God doesn't answer any prayer because God never intervenes in the affairs of men well that's the exact opposite of what Ben Franklin said in the Constitutional Convention he said I've lived sir a long time in the longer I live the more convincing proof I see that God governs in the affairs of men and then he goes on in that speech to call for prayer again a deist would never call for prayer because God doesn't listen to prayers according to the deists so Franklin not a deist Thomas Jefferson another very interesting case I don't know that he was orthodox and a lot of his beliefs but he also called for prayer for himself he appealed to the American people and this is in his second and

7:39augural address he appeals that the people of America would pray for him that they would pray to God that God would give him wisdom that the decisions he and his administration would make as his second term as president would be guided by God such that they would make things that were best for the American republic and would actually exalt the American republic across the world that other nations would respect our nation as a result of the wise decisions that we make so I think both men dabbled in deism at some point in time but later in their life Franklin at the Constitution Convention Thomas Jefferson the second and augural address both call for prayer which shows that they did not believe deism as a whole and that deists the system actually was very rare in the period of the founding of our nation in our country there was a good deal of it happening over in Europe and I would argue and there have been others who have studied this

8:43agree with me that not one of our founders were deists unless you include Thomas pain in that list now Thomas pain when he wrote his famous pamphlet read by just about everybody on the beginning of the war for independence common sense all the people who read that applauded everything in his arguments all and he references God there but then he didn't stay here in our our Constitutional republic he wasn't here for most of the fight he was in Europe spending a great deal of time in France and England and so forth and it was there he appears to me at least to have become infected with deism and so he's the one exception that proves the rule the rest were followers of the bible believers in the Lord Jesus Christ except Thomas pain in fact pain wrote a age of reason and he actually set a copy of it before publication he said it's a Benjou in Franklin and encouraged him to read it and you know give him his feedback and that sort of thing and that Franklin was it was not at all reserved with his words back to Thomas pain he said don't publish

9:49this burn this book this book is horrible because actually the book denies the creator God the book really embraces the French enlightenment view that is what led up to the French Revolution which total blood bath very different from the American Revolution because the American Revolution was based upon the bible based upon Jesus Christ our founder slogan was no king but king Jesus the French Revolution rejected Christianity rejected the bible and turned away from all of the truth that our founders were following and they believed reason and man would establish a glorious form of government and so forth and instead there was the terrible reign of terror the blood bath in which not only were any nobles or anybody that had money or most often the intellectuals in the society were all beheaded all you know execute you with a guilty but the the revolution got so out of control that the people who found that the red revolution robe spear so they were also guilty

10:53and the thing began to turn on itself and finally the chaos and the anarchy the people could no longer stand it and so they chose a dictator Napoleon to come in and and and bring order and peace to their country yeah yeah dictators do that but that's not a constitution republic so you can look at the French thing and say that was a failure because they rejected Jesus Christ rejected the bible our founders did not they followed so I would say Thomas pain yes I agree he became a deus and was a deus to seems at the end of his life but he is the exception the rest of our founders were Christians in their own mind I'm not saying they were all orthodox Christians believed all that we believe the bible teaches but they themselves believe they were following the Lord Jesus Christ yeah and not all the people in 18th century America didn't use a 21st century definition of a deus not all deus bought the idea of this absent clock maker god sometimes they would use the

11:57word deus to refer to a person who was critical of reform theology and its emphasis on humankind's lack of free will or someone who didn't believe that the whole bible was the word of god sometimes it meant monotheism sometimes it meant someone who didn't belong to any particular church most deus valued reason without abandoning god of the bible which would be of course the case with Benjamin Franklin and Jefferson in their views definitely evolved over time and from what they did right we can summarize that appeal Franklin and Jefferson's religious belief was they allowed for the belief of the god of Christianity and they believed that he deserved worship but Christianity wasn't necessarily dependent upon biblical revelation prophecy miracles for that for faith and neither of these men completely abandoned the religious light lessons upon which they were raised they were

13:01critical of organized religion because in their view these man-made institutions had corrupted the simple message of Jesus obscured the best way to follow his teachings and you were correct about the Thomas Payne he really went off the deep end but he did say he wasn't an atheist he said I believe in god so he would he saw Christianity as the last great obstacle to the coming secular what he called the millennial reign of the age of reason and only when Christianity was vanquished could human happiness and perfect ability be achieved it sounds an awful lot like what's going to happen with utopia talk but pain said the bible should be called the word of a demon not the word of god he said I sincerely detest it and then Abraham Lincoln abandoned his Christian and he became a disciple of Thomas Payne which is not often talked about interesting very interesting

14:06well another one that many people accused of being a deist is George Washington which is rather strange because Peter Lillbeck has written an excellent book George Washington sacred fire which he's done extensive research in all the writings and speeches and letters and everything that you can get your hands on Peter Lillbeck research that and he said Washington shows that he knew the bible from Genesis to Revelation he quotes it over 200 times in different ways through reference through quotes through illusions and biblical languages so his research shows that whatever you think about Washington is clear that he was a biblically literate man furthermore Washington and the research that Peter Lillbeck has done Washington's faith he demonstrates influence both his private life and his public life for example we know that Washington's life was spared at the battle of mananga heela and in a letter Washington describing

15:08that battle says four bullet holes in my coat two horses shot out from under me and he was the only officer not wounded or killed in that battle and he wrote home and said buy a miracle of providence by which he's referring to the god of the bible by a miracle of providence I have been spared and so providence because of that experience became his favorite word for the god of the bible and a lot of people criticize him for using that phrase providence or they think while he's talking about some vague deity that's remote and not involved no no for Washington providence meant that very personal care of the lord jesus christ who protected his life at that battle of manga heela in fact a years later there was a chief an indian chief who was part of the attack against the british there because Washington was part of a british movement of a braddock general braddock but anyway that that indian chief had told his chiefs after they had shot down just about all

16:12the officers there to aim their fire specifically at george washington they needed to take down the last officer because they understood that if you eliminate all the officers in the army there it's because it's going to be chaos it'll be very easy to go in and scout the rest of the the british soldiers there and he said his his men repeatedly fired directly at george washington again and again and again holds in his coat horses shot out from under him and they could not kill him and so at last the chief said to his men don't fire at him anymore in a sense you're wasting your bullets there must be a spirit that is protecting him not that this in the in chief was a christian in any way shape or form but he believed in a power a divine power a spirit that seemed to be protecting george washington so this many many years later after not only that war but the war for independence was concluded that he met with washington and and he told him this he told her about that scene of his

17:15warriors attempting to kill him and being unable to do so and that was god's hand on him well we got to go to a break here don't imply the cool eight stay with him are you struggling with thinning hair or excessive shedding i know i am discover roots from the wellness company it's a doctor formulated hydrogell with seven powerful peptides that help repair and restore visibly thicker fuller hair it also contains methanine blue which boosts mitochondrial function and nourishes your scalp without any oily residue whether it's stress hormones or aging this formula targets the root cause literally visit twc.health4thslashoutlog and use code out loud for 20% of your first order that is twc.health4thslashoutlog experience the science of hair or growth with roots i'm dug heavens author of the sprout book and i'm also a father with a three year old daughter and that's why we grow sprouts did you know that you could take seeds add water and get fresh organic vegetables

18:19in three to five days without soil sunshine or fertilizer for under a dollar serving that's the miracle of spouting and i want to share that with you go to the spouting company dot com slash out loud and use the code out loud for a special offer i'll never before has our american cultural economic spiritual and political fabric been more threat here but the american most of us have drawn up with and love is under a relentless and pernicious siege from those carrying the banners of socialism congress and marxism america out loud dot news is the antidote to these boys and his america out loud dot news is that place to awaken your heart soul and mind to the out loud truth all right coming back from break here on don't invite the kool a the show where we use to

19:23witness test to determine whether something that claims to be true is actually true or not the first of course is the word of god absolute truth unchangeable truth from gods uh mind to our eyeballs that's the truth that we can measure every truth claim by if it disagrees with what word god says sorry it is not true the second litmus test of courses are founding documents the declaration the constitution bill of rights subsequent amendments by which we measure everything said by the politicians everything done by them if they hold office as to whether what they're doing is actually legal it's actually lawful are they violating the constitution and it's not lawful and sadly we see much too much of that going on today well before the break we were talking about george washington's uh the salvation of his life there at maha the battle of mahangi heela and uh the indian chief who told him that he detected that there was a spirit protecting george washington

20:24from being killed and the chief said that he concluded that that spirit that who you know the indian chief identified as god that spirit must have a special purpose for this man in the future well what a what a kind of prophetic vision this this chief had who i would not say is a true believer but uh had a had a idea that god was preserving george washington's life as a young man in that battle because he had a purpose and a plan for him and indeed that purpose and plan is very clear that uh he was going to lead the the continental armies to victory over great Britain and the war for independence and then uh while he retired for just a short period of time he was then called again to be president of the constitutional convention that debated and met in that hot summer of 1787 and concluded and signed the constitution and then brought it to the states to be ratified and once the constitution was ratified george washington was elected to be the first president of the united

21:24states that he first served a four-year term and then served another four-year term being reelected and that when he retired it was not long after he retired back to his farm that he loved so much amount of earn and that he died he fulfilled the purpose that god had him here on earth for and he had done it and done it very well so george washington's faith and the reason he refers to god as providence is because of that great miracle the miracle he says of providence that i have been spared he knew that god's hand was on his life and george washington said to his troops at valley forge in 1778 to the distinguished character of patriot it should be our highest glory to lord the more distinguished character of being christian uh after the revolution uh washington wrote to reverend samuel langdon and said the man must be bad indeed who can look upon the events of the american revolution without feeling the warmest gratitude toward the great author of the

22:27universe whose divine interposition was so frequently manifested in our behalf divine interposition god actively intervened in human history according to washington that's not 21st century dayism to say the least in 1779 three Delaware tribal leaders showed up at george washington's camp the one in advice on how to nurture their youth in the american way of life and washington said you do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life and above all the religion of jesus christ these will make you a greater and happier people than you are and at his inauguration in 1789 when they when they were giving him uh his uh oath of office he concluded it with saying so helped me god which was not in the constitution he added that and he was saying god is going to

23:34intervene to help me be a president of this united states and indeed when he was swearing that oath of office he didn't just have his hand on the bible the illustrations we see you can see it there at the museum in mountain vernan he had his hand on the open bible and there's a couple of different debates about what passage of scripture that he chose some say it's in the Psalms other i've heard say that it was uh deuteronomy 27 and 28 very interesting passage of scripture because it lists a series of blessings of god upon a nation that obeys god's commandments you know the ten commandments and so on and the nation that obeys god's commandments could receive enormous blessings that's uh uh 20 deuteronomy 27 and 28 but then contrary the nation that violates god's commandments the nation that say murders babies in the womb by the tune of 96 million babies murdered at this point and that's probably even bigger than that at this point in time and the passage of deuteronomy 28 says god's curses god's curses are going to fall upon such nation

24:39and that nation will be destroyed uh that violates the commandments of god so we're not sure there's debates about which passage it was but i know George Washington was familiar with the scriptures his pattern of life that those who knew him closely saw is that he would spend an hour and devotions in the morning and hour and devotions in the evening before retiring to bed and that hour and devotions would be spent reading the word of god that time praying actually he wrote out some prayers uh uh in his own handwriting we have the prayers that he wrote for each day he had a morning prayer and an evening prayer and the end of the book that he wrote these in was missing so we only have Thursday I think it's Thursday morning prayer we don't have the evening prayer so we're missing the Friday and and Saturday prayers that he wrote but he wrote out a whole prayer liturgy for himself just for his own private personal devotions that he pray and he reads to these prayers they're beautiful prayers prayers that confess his sinfulness prayers that express his

25:41humility before god his need uh for Jesus Christ his savior those are all the terms there so when we look at we want something personal from George Washington as to what he believed those prayers are very powerful evidence of his faith his biblical faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in addition to that many people don't know that he had a role in his local episcopal church he was an episcopal and in that episcopal church their structure is a vestryman is someone who takes care the physical aspects of the ministry and the property kind of in the Baptist tradition this would be somebody that is a deacon or you know does kind of the physical ministry the church so finances and other things like that caring for the upkeep of the pohic church it was the pohic church that he was a vestryman of but in the anglican system to become a vestryman of the of the church meant that you had to swear an oath before witnesses that you indeed believed all the 39 articles of the

26:44anglican church and by the way at that point in time and that point in the anglican church history those 39 articles were all very orthodox there was none of these lgbtq or any other garbage that the liberal uh... episcopal churches are into today none of that at all you read those 39 and yours washington swore an oath and he signed the document witnesses signed the document that he had sworn an oath that he believed all 39 articles of the anglican church which shows that he confessed publicly in writing swearing an oath with his signature under the oath that he indeed believed every one of these orthodox uh... tenants of the christian faith so there is no way that yours washington was a deist uh... that he believed you know off on the fringes where Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin might have been he was a sincere christian by the way he's just put one of many who as members of their church whether dutch reformed church or whether presbyterian church

27:45what have you with of the other denominations those denominations likewise had a very uh... clear statement of faith that anyone who became a member of that church had to swear that they believed all of those statements of faith unlike you know a lot of membership in churches today you just show up and all your member because you showed up and the there's no real gate guarding membership in many churches in america today but in that day there was and so all of those as you cited all those who were members known members of the churches in the colonies these were sincere christians in their belief odd knows their heart god knows perfectly better than we can ever discern whether they were in the kingdom of the lord jesus christ or not but the evidence we have the historical evidence we have uh... rejects all the revisionist history that would say they were not christians uh... that they were deists in jorge washington the evidence is very very solid solid all that yeah and it's and it's interesting to because he really does go through an evolution in his thought

28:50he had written that when he was a young man that uh... some books against days and fell into my hands the arguments of the day has appeared to me much stronger than the reputation in short i soon became a thorough day of well franklin then published a book uh... with some strong atheistic overtones and he soon regretted doing this and he tried to suppress the distribution of his book uh... considering it one of the greatest errors of his youth uh... he then kept his religious convictions pretty much to himself but like the small handful of colonial days of franklin kept a real low theological profile uh... as a result deism had very little effect in early america up through the american revolution and then in his fouries franklin commanded quote the excellency of the christian religion above all others ancient and modern and later in life uh... he changed from defining himself as a deus

29:52to saying that deism had quote perverted his friends and we would talk about that the constitutional convention in seventeen eighty seven uh... eighty one year old then franklin was frustrated after five weeks of deliberation little results fact delegates were so frustrated they were preparing to abandon philadelphia and and go home and franklin writes to the convention president george washington he said in this situation of this assembly groping in the dark to find political truth and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us how has it happened so that we have not once thought of humbly applying to the father of rights to illuminate our understandings in the beginning of the contest with great written when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for divine protection our prayer serve were heard and they were graciously answered all of us who were engaged in the struggle observed frequent instances

30:57of a super intending provenance in our favor to that kind provenance we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future uh... national joy and have we now forgotten that powerful friend or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance he said if a sparrow cannot follow the ground without his notice is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid we have been assured sir in the sacred writings that accept the lord build the house those labor in vain that builds it he said we had great conquest in the lord in the war because of the assistance of heaven and it's blessings on our deliberation he said let's have prayer every day well someone that made a motion to have a sermon preached on july 4th with prayer to be offered every morning thereafter seconded by benjamin franklin however toward the end of his life

32:02this is really sad franklin wrote as to jesus of nasioreth i have some doubts as to his divinity i expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth and that is sad to me because you have to believe jesus is god to make it into heaven amen i think the same was true of thomas jeverson he believed the teachings of jesus in fact people criticize him for his jeverson bible which was really the new testament and basically he kind of took the red letter words of jesus so jesus teaching his parables and so on and and you know excluded miracles and so forth but his purpose he said was not in terms of expressing or rejecting the supernatural but his purpose was to reach american indians with the essential teaching of jesus and i disagree with him i don't think you can you know chop up the bible like that and make it a reader's digest version of it i don't agree with his project but his own witness was that he was trying to reach the american indians with the truth

33:08of jesus and jeverson styled himself a follower of jesus he believes so but i agree with you like franklin it appears that he did not believe in the deity of the lord jesus christ and sadly that means when he died and he died the same day interestingly enough as uh uh... john adam's did fifty th anniversary of our declaration of independence he died on that day and sadly both of them know the truth when it's to what is too late for them to save their souls well there's many others who had enormous impact john witherspoon is one of my favorites the scottish american press material minister uh... he was famous for founding or or being the the first lead in what was the college of new jersey that became ultimately Princeton university and as the instructor there at Princeton University of president of that institution he taught many in fact he was the major teacher of those who were uh... college graduates at the constitutional convention he taught james madison for example in james madison actually took an additional year after he

34:12finished the four years and received his bachelor's he spent an additional year studying and being tutored by john witherspoon in greek and he grew so that he could better understand uh... the scriptures and john witherspoon was one who signed a declaration of independence john witherspoon was involved as uh... uh... informing the constitution for the state of new jersey so here was a minister who was very actively involved in the founding of our our our nation influence the constitution of the united states in fact the three branches of government this is what you know james madison was taught by john witherspoon so witherspoon had an enormous impact and is it is greatly respected if you see his life as a pastor going far beyond just his own pulpit uh... to influence the entire country and we have our constitution republic in part because of the ministry of work of john witherspoon he preached a number of famous sermons that led people to support

35:13the war for independence we often forget that the war for independence was not something that was embraced by all of the colonial's there in the thirteen uh... states and many in new jersey included many were torres in fact that one estimate says about a third of the population were torres they did not support the war for independence and there was a third that were kind of you know finger in the wind let's see which way the winds blowing currently and whether we're for the continental army or against it and you know for the british and then there was a third that were solidly behind the war for independence and separating from uh... great britain but witherspoon had an enormous impact and and uh... affect upon many of those who were part of great drafting and uh... ultimately ratifying uh... the constitution that established our constitution republic uh... again we could go through a long list of many of these founders and there are some admittedly that we have very little evidence of in terms of their papers have been lost their letters and we don't

36:15know where they stood but knowing the culture in general that they were living in uh... they were uh... probably sincere christians again we don't have exact details on every one of them because sometimes historical documents get destroyed and uh... and uh... when they're not preserved and we don't have the evidence we need well this is don't in by the kool-aid coming to you over the america out loud network you encourage we encourage you to go to america out loud dot news make it your news of source this new source for information we know that there's a whole lot of lies being told in the mainstream media and most americans are aware of that now but uh... uh... we know also the alternative media uh... there is uh... a question so go to america uh... uh... america out loud dot news and also like our show don't invite the kool-aid uh... give us your comments your feedback we'd love to answer your questions don't invite the kool-aid you wouldn't go a day without brushing your teeth or washing your hands what about washing your nose i mean your nose does filter the air you breathe

37:16air loaded with bacteria viruses and irritants make nasal hygiene part of your routine with clear no messy bottles to fill no drowning sensation clear as a natural drug free saline with the added benefit of zyletal which blocks bacterial and viral adhesion available in stores and online at clear dot com that is x l e a r dot com have you been looking for a healthy snack from the go well not all energy bars are soft and sugary bear bars are crunchy say we bar made from just six simple natural ingredients bear bars are plant-based organic gluten free contain six grams of protein and are low temperature dried for unique crunch most energy bars are based on chocolate or fruit and are held together with serps or sweeteners to learn more just visit bear bar dot com slash out loud are you tired of struggling with low energy we get it that's why we created organic energy juice

38:20in just one minute you'll have clean natural energy all day and never struggle with low energy again and it tastes amazing and there's no toxic chemicals or stimulants that make you crash you shouldn't have to struggle with low energy and with organic energy juice you won't if you're struggling with low energy then buying organic energy juice is the right decision with our double your money back guarantee there is zero risk to try it go to chemical free body dot com forward slash out loud for an exclusive discount that's chemical free body dot com forward slash out loud all right come back from the break here don't in by the coolant on your host pastor David Whitney senior instructor institute on the constitution by the way our website is the american view dot com at institute on the constitution we offer courses that teach our founders view of law and government you will find there are many courses that teach the constitution from perspectives that are two hundred years later than the founders view and we argue that if you're going to understand the founding documents properly you're going to need to

39:20know the world view of our founders a biblical world view and uh... even those like Franklin and Jefferson who were not orthodox in all of their beliefs about jesus and so forth nonetheless the amazing thing to me uh... brine is that they had a biblical world view of law and government far better than most Christians by me today most Christians I meet today they've never heard about law and government from their pulpit they don't know anything about it they don't know what the bible says about it at all so i look at our founders even the ones that find out there were orthodox Christians they had a better theology of law and government they had been well taught well trained in it and they crafted our constitution republic uh... based on that well uh... we're talking together dr. brine shelly myself about those founders and the accusation that they were deus that we find to be false although there was times when no franklin and jeferson dabbled in dism uh... but uh... at the end of their lives or later in their lives were clearly rejecting

40:21that full thing even if they were not orthodox Christians and and brine do you encounter as i know you've been a professor and a dean uh... college and uh... you counter students and you're teaching students right now to encounter students who hold to this view that our founders were not Christians yeah i had uh... several students that uh... would have uh... would be a side to make sure that i understood that and uh... so then those became lectures and class uh... the next day about why what they're saying is not true so you would say and this is you were teaching a christian colleges and settings of christian students that this kind of uh... propaganda these lies about our founders pre-wide spread yeah and i i also taught in our secular schools where i got that as well and so the question is uh... who's behind this and and and sense why would somebody want to undercut

41:23the christian foundation of our constitution republic that there is a creator god and that's the god of the bible our rights come from him and the purpose of government is to secure those god given rights what's your thoughts on why anyone would be the historic revisionist historians why would they want to undercut that that belief system yeah i think i'd answer is pretty simple they want to bring Marxism to america and they need to to show that uh... christians are lying and uh... we need to maybe even eliminate christianity and the bible and we need to implement Marxism and the best way to do that is to rewrite the history of the past and uh... that's why we need to keep studying history we need to keep promoting what the truth was from history so that people uh... we'll stand up and say no what you're saying is not right we are a christian uh... nation we were founded by christians and we were founded by people who said the only way this country is going to work if it's uh... if it's going to succeed if we're going to maintain the republic that franklin talked about

42:27it's gonna be because christians are getting involved in the government of the united states and fighting against uh... the forces of hell that are trying to take us to communism amen that's uh... i see that is the same aim they recognize unless they knock out the christian the christian underpinnings the christian pillars that support our constitution republic they cannot take the republic down and to me brine the sad thing is not just the revisionist historians and they've been operating and working for several generations so that they've got a number a large number of students that have come under their sway and their influence and and most students you know they don't go into the research of the original sources themselves they'll trust what their textbook says but the textbook is written by an author who has a certain bent and if that author wants to uh... you know persuade them that christian is not right and it's not the foundation of our country they tend to believe that rather than doing the research like you're saying on their own but to me the sadder thing is that

43:31either as a result of that propaganda going on for several generations that many pastors in the pulpits of america also believe that lie i can't tell you the number of pastors i've encountered or heard them speak and they refer to our founders as dearest and many of them uh... i've heard also referred to our entire system of government our constitution republic our declaration of independence as not christian they would say well this rebellion against king jordan third is a violation of romans thirteen and therefore it wasn't god's will in a whole myth about america being a christian and they preach sermons to their congregations that reject the truth of history and reject the founders view of law and government based upon the bible and this of course i know the congregations listening to them are trusting that they know more than the con the person the punos and and all there's research and so forth leads into that conclusion of the person of the puna ten is not the question that so well if my pastor says it it must be true i'll go along

44:35that so this attack against our constitution republic has also entered the church and the church become many not all but many churches have become an undermining factor now there's those who may not actually preach against our constitution republic in that way but in their thinking in their thoughts they've accepted the questioning of whether that foundation of our constitution republic is actually biblical so what they do is this they avoid the topical together they make no mention of it whatsoever which communicates also to the people in the pew that this subject is not important that this subject should not be addressed from the pulpit it's nothing to worry about and often these folks take a take a view that says of anybody that talks about these issues like we're talking about here on this podcast very christian nationalist and that's all horrible thing and uh... yeah this is the the left invading the church and brine i have been attacked by other pastors

45:35and accusing me of being a christian nationalist and i know what they mean by that and i reject their meaning of that term but i've explained to those pastors look if i was that an evangelist going to the nation of say japan leading people to faith in christ and discipling them and leading them to follow jesus every aspect of their life i would never want the japanese christians to hate their own country to revile their own country to want to see their own country destroyed and i know i'd want the japanese christians to love their country and love their country so much they want to lead their country fellow countrymen to faith in jesus christ and lead the entire system of their culture which includes politics to to adopt the biblical view of law and government and seek to make it a christian nation in the sense that not every person in the nation is a christian but the nation is following biblical principles so for me brine it's a tragedy uh... that this these lies from

46:37historians have now infected the church to a uh... a tragic degree in my view yeah and this whole charge of christian nationalism basically says you know what we want is to force everybody to become a christian well we're christians we don't believe that as uh... even as joshua said to you this day when you will serve if it's the gods of egypt follow them for me in my house we're going to follow the lord we do not force people to believe anything that's what the first amendment is all about we do not force people to do it jesus didn't force people to believe when the rishwara young world walked away from jesus when asking him how to get into heaven jesus doesn't track him down and and so well change my mind about this or make or say tell him he has to believe this or the putting the death he doesn't do any of that that christian nationalism thing is an absolute lie but what we do believe is that the country was based

47:40on the bible was based on christian principles and as a result of that uh... we have a nation that needs to uphold that now getting back to just a second here for the for the founding fathers they established a church in the u.s. capital five years before its construction was even complete and the capital continued to be used as a church until after the civil war uh... when jetherson was vice president and president he regularly attended church at the capital building which was led by the capitals in the house of representatives uh... he was also a significant financial uh... contributed to the virginia bible society in fact uh... him once said i am a christian and in the only sense in which jesus one and he wanted to be in any course denies the the fact that jesus is god which was typical of of deus of the day uh... but he he was a unitarian

48:43basically and uh... he was not against the god of the bible this whole thing is just an absolute lie uh... to try to undo the foundation of our country and the past is that uh... i would try to communicate with and help them understand this i would say they need to realize that they're freedom to preach the gospel of jesus christ in our land is based upon this biblical worldview secured by our constitution our declaration and bill of rights if we lose that in other words if the marx's win or we could add now if the mahamidins get their way yes the mahamidins in sharia law there's no freedom of religion whatsoever you're not going to be anything but a mahamidin or dead or slave of the mahamidins if they get their way so if the marxus win or the mahamidins win we lose the freedom of religion in our land and we see this in north people don't know that north korea was once heavily christian nation presbyterian churches

49:43everywhere in fact it was it appeared to be a stronger christian nation than south korea and what happened when the war was fought at the end of world war two and then the result of a handing china over to the communist by the way that was a project of the state department of the united states that handed china to the communist russians and then the communist russians had determined that north korea belonged to them and that so on so christianity was attacked and destroyed in north korea and today not only does no one have any religious freedom they have no freedom whatsoever their slaves of whatever the current dictator is there in north korea so pastors don't realize that there are consequences to what is allowed to be the philosophy underlying law and government in any nation and the marxus philosophy being atheistic hates christianity and they go after an attack christianity and they kill pastors who are imprisoned them torture them

50:46the death all of this is very clear history the history of the ussr the history of cuba history of venus well everywhere history of china today christians are persecuted and so everywhere you allow marxism to take place and obviously everywhere mohamadism takes control christianity is attacked and persecuted even to death so if a pastor would like to continue being able to preach the gospel freely in these united states of america he needs to recognize that he needs to step up to the plate and be part of the defense of our founding of principles based upon the bible and be part of encouraging his people to be politically active in order to protect the protection that is necessary for the gospel to continue to go forth freely here in these united states and too many pastors are afraid of offending people by standing up and saying here here's what we need to do is christians but it's very clear you know you look at daniel you look at

51:52shadrach nishak and abendigo you look at aster uh joseph all these people god had placed in key positions in government so that when the time came for something to happen something where god would have to intervene in human history he had people in government positions that could make that work i mean you look at the fact that uh so many of these old testament saints were indies great positions and then they used a position as aster said for a time such as this we need to get christians involved in politics again and stop this nonsense that we can't talk about politics from the pulpit because we don't want to offend people well if they're going to be offended let them be offended what we need to do is speak the truth and how people respond is up to them you say it in love but you say it in truth amen and that's

52:53an important principle to remember that often what people say well you you've turned from preaching to politicking well that's if you were saying from the pulpit you ought to vote for joe schmoe and that may not be the proper role for the pulpit but if you're talking about the issues of the day say abortion is murdering babies and issues spoken of in the word of god oh yes indeed child sacrifice is throughout the old testament you have god condemning child sacrifice and destroying the nations that practice child sacrifice my friends we are in a nation that is endorsing child sacrifice that's what those eleven jurors there in Massachusetts the other week determined that the woman was innocent even though she murdered her three children with her own hands they declared her to be innocent in other words excuse me saying that child sacrifice is perfectly legitimate and we're not going to punish anybody who practices child sacrifice whether that's child sacrifice in the womb or now child sacrifice

53:53outside the womb we need to see that Satan's strategy is to take issues that are moral issues issues that are spoken of in scripture and make them political issues and now then tell the church you can't talk about abortion because it's now a political issue you can't talk about sodomy because it's a political issue now you wait a minute if the bible talks about it every honest preacher should be preaching about it we should do what the apostle Paul said he did and he this is an x 20 where speaking to the aphesian elders he said he preached to them the whole council of god he preached everything god says in his word he didn't leave anything out and i would pray that that would be what happens here in america in every single pulpit of our land i would agree and that needs to be a conversation you need to have with your pastor if he's not talking about these things when he going to stand up and and take a stand for what is right what is just what is righteous

54:57because that is what the pulpit needs to proclaim a week after week and that includes the fact that as Christians we need to be involved in maintaining a culture where our Christian values are going to be respected and we think about a lot of other countries too whether it's leaven and seria turkey arach aran and north africa one time they were all christian nations but the church didn't get involved as they should have and now their muslim and so that's a warning to us if we study christian history we see clearly there's a warning to us that we either fight for the god given right to proclaim the gospel of jesus christ or we will lose that and our founders warned us they said that the freedom is not automatic you've got to fight for that liberty to maintain that liberty so i'd say we can't just uh... show up every four years and click the right buttons in the voting booth and somehow expect our god given right to freedom of religion our

56:01god given right to freedom of speech our god given right to life liberty property they will not be protected if we are not involved in the fight to do those things and that's why we hear it uh don't invite the kool-aid are urging you to adopt our founders world view of law and government again i mentioned that you could take a course at institute on the constitution by going to our website the american view dot com that's the american view dot com learn what our founders thinking was behind what they crafted because the only way to properly preserve our republic is to go back to those founding principles and follow what our founders believed and why they structured this constitutional republican the way that they did well we're coming to you here don't invite the kool-aid over the america out loud network we encourage you to go to america out loud dot news and we zork you don't invite the kool-aid