Historic weekend leaves three nations in the running

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Now, let's get into the show.

Hello, this is The Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and the Sunday

Times.

We are back in studio on a Monday and what a weekend of action.

We have to look back on.

I'm Alfie Reynolds and alongside me is Charlie Morgan, right, Charlie?

Hi, mate.

How was your trip back from Rome?

I feel like I saw you just a matter of hours ago in Rome airport.

I was just 14 hours ago that we parted ways after I'd stuffed my face with pizza in Rome

airport.

It was fine, mate.

Thank you very much for asking Brighton.

Not too jaded this morning.

No, no, no.

Good to go for one last week.

Why not?

Good, man.

And also with us fresh from a trip to Murrayfield where he saw an absolute classic Elgin Oldman.

Good morning.

Morning.

It was, I spoke with all the six nations about my favorite six nations Saturday, another

cloud in the sky.

And that was this weekend.

Edinburgh, my favorite city in the world, 15,000 Frenchmen in town, brilliant bonkers game

of rugby.

It was just what weekends are supposed to be.

Absolutely.

So, the last pod we had was from Rome, Stadio Olympico Saturday night, myself and Will,

looking back on England's first ever defeat to Italy.

As expected, we have had loads of reaction.

Loads of emails from our listeners.

We will come on to a few of those and chat about the England performance and where they

are later on in the pod.

We've got so many emails that we're actually also going to have to use some on Thursday

because we won't be able to get through all of them.

So, for those of you that have emailed in, thank you very much.

We will try and get to as many of them across this week as we possibly can.

As I say, we'll get onto England.

I want to start off at Murrayfield with an incredible result, incredible performance from Scotland.

But maybe before that, I've seen people say it, I feel like this is something that crops

up pretty much every six nations have we just seen one of the great weekends?

Have we seen the greatest weekend of six nations, rugby ever?

What do we reckon?

I've been through them all.

I think it's probably in the top 10.

I'm not going to go into all of them just yet because we'll talk about something about

the game itself first, maybe later on.

If you'll permit me, you can go and go and make a coffee and I'll have read more later

to myself.

But I certainly think with just, yeah, the history of that Italy win and I'm pretty sure

first time in Sixation's history that both teams have scored 40 or more points in the

game, which says it all just how bonkers that result was, but also just Wales.

We were talking at the start of this tournament about if Wales might end up as the worst six

nations team in history based off those 41 and 42 point defeats in the first two ends.

But the way that they went to Ireland again on Friday night, after the way that they

battled against Scotland, they've still haven't won, but they've turned the narrative

around significantly.

So it really was, yeah, a great weekend of six nations, right?

I always think it's a really good point because I always think the, and you guys mentioned

it on the pod are in Rome, when the floor comes up, that's what makes a great six nations

weekend, right?

When there's a really good underdog performance and you can say, we can say what we like

about whether Italy are underdogs or not, but the fact that it was their first win over

England made that historic and they thoroughly deserved it.

And also to Algonne's point, that performance from Wales, a real defiant performance felt

important too.

As I say, I feel like that is a question that gets asked every single six nations of was

this the best weekend ever, but I think it probably underlined how consistently good the

championship is every single year.

You get great games, you get the unexpected, and that's absolutely been the case this

year.

Anyone who has tried to make any predictions for how the results would go in this six nations

has been made to look pretty foolish, including, I think, Algonne, Scotland 50, France 40, even

people that predicted Scotland to win, we're not predicting that sort of score line.

Can you just, what was it like being inside Murrayfield with all of that was happening

and how significant a result this is for Scotland?

Well, the strangely about the game was France scored for absolutely cracking tries at

the end of the game, and they were just sort of immediately forgotten because people were

just giddy because of what had been going on.

We were looking at what would have been, if it had finished 15 minutes ago, Scotland's record

ever win against France, the previous one was back in 1912, so it was going to be, we

were just shouting around, I think it's in the leaf 1912 to each other, basically, during

that game.

If you'd said after the first round of the six nations that that would happen, when

I mean, Scotland were getting pilloried for losing to Italy, a result which now doesn't

look dreadful, because 1815 in Rome, with the way that France were favourites for the

Grand Sam, and the thing is France are still in the box seat to win the championship, they

still are the best team in the championship, in my opinion, but just the manner in which

it started to unravel, it's, it's like when you predict the six nations at the start,

it can start off okay, but you just need one result to go wrong in the middle in that

third round, and suddenly it, alter the complexion of it all, you had France deprived of their

traditional fast start that they've done in the first three rounds, but then they came

into it towards the middle part of that first half, then even early on in the second half,

you know, they were still in it, and then suddenly I think that, that du-point interception

to Carl Stain just changed it, and it was just a 10-15 minute tidal wave of Scottish

trousers, France somewhat lost the plot of it, but then they came back at the end brilliantly

to alter the score line, but yeah, I mean, to think, if you'd said beforehand, I think

France will score 40 points and lose the game, that would have been quite a prediction

to make.

I've seen plenty of people say that this is, might be Scotland's greatest ever performance

in the history of the six nations, which is quite revealing in itself, Charlie, what

stands out to you, we were having a chat in Rome airport yesterday as we were waiting

for our separate flights, and you said that they're just really smart, they do a lot of

stuff kind of really well in their very smart team.

Yeah, so from the very start, the way they sort of set up for what looked like a box

kick went across the face of their own post, and Thin Russell went high across to Louis

Bielbury with a low sun, with Francis back through looking into that low sun, that set

the tone for a really sort of varied performance, where they complemented a varied kicking

game with an ambition to move the ball from deep, and I think that just, they did the same

against England, potentially an underrated aspect of how Scotland's really good performance

is, a lot of them coming against England in recent years, has been the variety of intelligence

of their kicking game.

I think also of how they held backs under Faguson because they knew that their scrum in

the second half had to be really strong.

They were smart with strike moves.

There was just a lot of smart content in this performance from Scotland, and I thought

they got maybe slightly fortunate in some aspects of the kicking game with those ricochets

because we know that that is your, it's a random, it's a randomizer, that sort of tactic,

they got a couple of soft breakdown penalties, but a lot of it was just fantastic, and they

to be 47-14 against a French side that has a lot of special talents in it.

I thought that France could have potentially been vulnerable at some point in this championship

because of, there are some relatively new combinations, but I didn't expect that.

What struck me really early on was, as soon as Tom Ramos dropped that kick in the fourth

minute of the game, and that was the first stoppage in the match.

They had just been going on for more than three minutes until that stage.

As soon as that happened, I thought, this feels a bit like, Twickenham 2025 again, where

again, that was the one game they lost last year, when they won all four other games.

When you saw Peno, Dupont, dropping balls, they normally wouldn't.

To see Ramos drop that kick, and then a few minutes later, Louis B. L. B. A. dropping

what would have been, not a tricep on an opportunity, it was certainly an attacking

opportunity.

That really reminded me of Twickenham.

It did really make me think immediately, and as I mentioned, France's first starts in

the first three rounds.

It's got two tries inside five minutes, and they almost did the same against Ireland,

but shall I leave on, knocked on that.

That grubber threw from B. L. B. A. early on.

Ramos drops that kick.

It's a scrum to Scotland.

They get a free kick.

They go into the 22, they score almost immediately.

The entire complexion of the opening five minutes of the game has altered.

That was the first time France were behind in the entire championship.

Just that one mistake, that very Twickenham-like mistake, perhaps set the course for the rest

of the match from there on in.

I want to get more on France in just a moment, because I am intrigued of what this means,

and what this means for the feeling about this team and Fabian Galtierne, no slam, and

all of that stuff, but just to stay on Scotland for just a second.

We've got to give them their credit, don't we?

After the opening weekend, they were getting absolutely hammered, particularly off the

back of the November they had, then coming into here, losing to Italy and Rome, which,

as you say, doesn't look like the worst result now in what were really tricky conditions.

Lots of questions about Gregor Townsend, and whether he was the right man, and they've

answered so many of them, haven't they?

In the last three rounds, and now they go into Super Saftey Charlie.

In the title hunt, I think we probably all expect France to still be the eventual winners,

but that has been the thing that Scotland, you've always been able to level at this Scotland

team, haven't you?

For all the great wins, for all of the good performances, a lot of them coming against

England, they were never really in with a title shot where they are this weekend.

Those two home performances against England and then France feel not quite championship

defining, because this island cloud hangs over them, and it's that they've been so flaky

and in that fixture under Gregor Townsend, but the performance against France to back up

the performance against England is the important thing for them.

And I go back to Cione Tupelottu's press conference, the captain's run before England,

where he was still smarting from that Italy loss.

And if you now look back at that Italy loss, I think the importance of those two early

Italy tries and just the calamitous nature of Scotland's line out and their scrum.

They've fixed those two things through clearly smart coaching, smart selection over the

rest of this tournament, and they've also stayed true to their identity as a backline that,

as I say, moved the ball with ambition and invention, and they just work, they work

really, really hard for each other.

Ben White's performance, just to sort of single him out, which is difficult because there's

so many big performances in that, in that side, but he was phenomenal, I thought opposite

and so on and so on.

For that Atasogway pass to BLBRE, he'd chased Mathej Alibair across the field from the

initial, initial first phase rap move that France ran.

He hit Jalibair, slightly late, got on his feet for the next phase and was chasing back

to just make that last pass a little bit more difficult.

And those are tiny things that never show up on snap sheets, but it just really epitomised

the sort of Ben White's such a fierce competitor, and he's really, really kind of accurate

with his nuts and bolts as well, he's excellent player.

And what they've got left now is probably what would be the biggest achievement of the

lot, because like we say, they haven't beaten Ireland since 2017, they haven't won in Dublin

since 2010, and that was at Croke Park, so I don't think they've won at Landsdown Road

or the Old Landsdown Road since 1998, so a lot of history awaits, even if they don't win

the championship, if they were to win that game, that would be a real statement to have won

four games to have ended that duck, to have done what they did to France.

I mean, it will be some breakthrough tournament for Scotland.

Yeah, the way in which they bounce back, I think, has been really impressive.

In terms of France, Elgin, how damaging is Saturday to Fabian Galtier?

Defaming Galtier, perhaps, I think a lot of the talk after the England defeat has been

about how Steve Borthwick doesn't have the hearts and minds of the England public.

I'm not sure if Fabian Galtier has the hearts and minds, but the France team definitely

has the hearts and minds, because they flooded into Cardiff for that game.

They flooded into Edinburgh again.

They were probably more than 15,000, 15,000 was the figure given by sort of tall groups.

Certainly, I saw thousands of French people at Edinburgh Airport leaving on Sunday night.

Even though France had just lost pretty stunningly, and like we say, it was 50-40, but they

were really hammered in the game.

They did a lap of honour afterwards, and the crowd stayed out to support them, so the team

certainly is still beloved by this public, and like we say, they are still the favourites

to win this championship, because they should be England this weekend.

They are still in the box seat to do that.

If anything, the question Mark and Fabian Galtier that were there before the six nations,

which were around, is he getting the best out of this France team, have they won as many

clean sweeps as they should have done?

It'll now be, well, next year, it'll now be five years since their most recent one.

Is he getting the best out of his team, I think, based off the fact that they lost this

week and the answer would have to be no, they're not quite at the level.

A lot of people think they should be at.

Grand Slam is hard.

That feels hard.

How does it manifest itself, that sort of discontent around Galtier, is there sort

of open criticism of his manner, I mean, that the change room thing was a bit weird,

wasn't it?

And didn't work out great.

Yeah, well, we were in the media room, which there were talks about how France maybe

wanted to portion off parts of the media room for their change room.

And the media room in Muriffield is very close to the changing rooms and the corridors.

And so we were just stood right amongst them, basically, a few of us hung around with

all the France fans that welcomed the France person.

It was a real French takeover at the stage, and at that stage, you thought there's no way

Scotland are winning this because this feels like we're in the middle of Paris right here.

But then they took sort of a dividing board out of the media room somewhere.

I don't know what they were doing that.

We saw some of the players doing their stretches and their warm-ups in the corridors.

So I don't know if they were laying it on thick after the comments, but clearly it

adored them for whatever reason, which I think outside France probably didn't.

People perhaps weren't enamored of them for that reason because they thought, you've

won three out of three, why are you moaning about the size of a corridor in there?

I was going to say to you, so people that missed it, it wasn't happy with the size of

the away-changing room at Muriffield.

From a long way out, from a long way, from maybe the Tuesday, it was quite a sort of

like a punchy thing to make me think of the non-Titanisari, and they thought, if you

made the point of bringing up the size of the corridors and the changes, I think Gregor

Tandon said, well, you've brought too many, too many backroom staff, doesn't it?

Anyway, it was one of the, one of the stranger debates you've had.

But, you know, Framing Elter is not universally popular in France.

We've seen players say some very, players that aren't necessarily in the France squad,

but just French rugby players say some pretty damning things about it.

So, he is quite a peculiar, viewed as quite a peculiar character in France.

You know, France are defending champions.

They might win a second six nations in a row, and yet still there are dates about whether

he's getting the best out of them.

And is that good enough for this team, which seems ridiculous in many ways, back to back

championships.

I mean, blind me, England fans would bite your hand off at the moment for a championship,

even if it wasn't a Grand Slam, but for this French team, and by the way, love how difficult

Grand Slam's are to win.

I think for people outside of rugby, you think you just got to win five games in a row.

I think surely someone does that virtually every year.

They are so difficult to win, which I think is brilliant.

Is a product also of the floor coming up, as we're saying?

Do you think that's what it...

Well, they've lost the reason Scotland aren't in the hunt for one is because they've lost

to Italy.

Yeah.

It's a bit of a first world problem for me, the lack of a Grand Slam because of that,

because they're so difficult.

I think it's kind of significant, though.

I think a Grand Slam is so much more impressive to you.

And I fall France, I mean, fall France.

And I actually think, even if they retain the championship, I think that Scotland game

is a really good example of a loss that can be beneficial in the future for them.

Because maybe they looked like their kicking game was really in tune with what other

sides were throwing at them when other sides were being a little bit more predictable.

I'm thinking of Ireland and thinking of Wales a little bit.

And then Italy too.

But when Scotland mixed it up away from home, you're right.

That Ramos drop was a real sort of, oh, wow, okay.

That's a little bit of a crack.

And I do think that they can, I do think that they can kick on.

And I think actually, to give Galtier to you, I think he's mindful of renewing clearly.

Because he's the whole chat about around this tournament.

This tall tournament has been framed by the fact that he's left out experienced veterans

to have a look at more of these exciting new guys coming through.

So not too much to worry about for France then we think, for now, they're in a pretty

good spot.

I mean, they lose to England.

Who knows?

No, and we've been, you know, we've, as we've seen, it's been, it's always a fool there

and to predict anything.

But especially what has been so great about this six nations is that results have happened

that people haven't expected coming.

So have crazier things happen.

Yes, they have had crazier things have happened than England winning next weekend.

But who knows?

I think that fun investment thing is a really good point off, right?

I certainly got that feeling when you've seen their, their traveling support, how they

are.

It's just so enamored with the side and that is, that's quite a good gauge of the direction

they're going in.

Do you think also sometimes though that the fans on six nations away day weekends aren't

necessarily the barometer for a team like England fans in Rome, for example, had a great

weekend in Rome.

But if you go online and see the thoughts of everyone sitting at home, I'd say they're

in quite stark contrast.

Do you think that the fact that there were so many there and so boy and it's probably

a reflection of how long ago were they booking tickets when they were in the middle of

that winning run and everything was looking a little bit easier?

And the other point is that the TV viewing figures in France as well have been, you know,

average seven, eight million people watching every game including that Thursday night

game.

So rugby players aren't going out there to try and necessarily just build massive TV

audiences.

But back in France, they are watching it in huge numbers as well as the thousands that

are flooded into Cardiff and Edinburgh.

So France, Super Saturday, the final game, they host England and Scotland and making the

trip to Dublin more on that a little bit later because that is so intriguing.

Speaking of Ireland though, the Friday night game, Ireland beating Wales, although another

spirited good Welsh performance and there is only one place to start here, rampaging

Reese Carrey.

The moment of the championship arguably, Algonne so far.

Currently, as we are recording, Reese Carrey's Wikipedia page lists his name as Reese

Carrey.

Lowercase B strangely, but you've gone in and I was not the one I've never read to the

Wikipedia page.

I assure you, but that one, I wasn't expecting to read that when I opened up his Wikipedia

page this morning.

I think every Welsh prop at some stage in their career that the hand of history taps them

on the shoulder and says, you, you need to score a solo try today because immediately

people were thinking of getting Jenkins against Namibia, 2011 World Cup.

People perhaps don't quite class Adam Jones against England.

I think it was 2010.

He scored from about two yards, but I remember the day after he went on Scrum 5 and talked

about it as if it was an 80 metre solo score where he sidestepped four people and those

with even longer memories will think back to the Graham Price in Paris in 1975, the famous

they'll never believe it in Ponty Pools, so Reese Carrey now, they're amongst the pantheon

of prop tri scorers, it happened in the same part of the field as well.

It reminded me a lot of, I don't know if anyone remembers Richie Grey's 40 metre try for

Scotland.

It happened in the same area of the field, very similar try, obviously he was a second

row for Scotland back then.

But in the search for the definitive view of this, I went to a friend of the pod, Will

Collier, score of one of the great prop tri's for Harlequin's against Bristol five years

ago, and this was his view.

It was sensational up there with the very best of prop tri's in the top three probably.

Over the ground he looked quicker than me, but the dummy wasn't anywhere near as good.

He didn't sell as many people.

The cameraman didn't go as much as when I did, neither did the stadium.

Then on a more serious note, he said it could potentially be life changing for Reese

Carrey.

Not only because now people will just remember that score forever, but also it was only

a few years ago that he was dropped from the Wales team, viewed as being overweight and

unfit, and he has in the four games of this six nations he has shown that he is a serious

carrier, decent scrumager as well, and yeah, a tremendous player.

That was Gatland, wasn't it, that dropped him for his conditioning?

Quite cruelly with a sort of a quite pointed sort of press release.

Can I add Richard Bands 2003, Springboks against the All Blacks, that it looks kind of semi-similar

rather than sort of an overs line, Bands comes back against the grain, but it's like a similar

sort of range and just, oh my goodness is he, is he, is he, yes he has sort of vibe to it

when he's storming through the sort of cover defence, but just so heartwarming, aren't

these stuff like that?

I think the thing that made it so brilliant was just the fact that he was kind of laughing

and smiling to himself before he'd even scored the try when you saw the slow motion replay,

Rob Balakoon's going to hate that on review, though, isn't he, he's going to be sat there like,

oh man, why did this have to happen to me?

We were watching it Charlie on Friday night in Rome in a restaurant which was packed out,

lots of rugby fans in there ahead of the weekend, and the explosion of noise when that happened

was absolutely brilliant.

He's a good footballer guys, I mean those tries don't happen if you're, if you're not,

a balanced runner as well, so he's, there's so much, very, very gifted player.

He was quite known when he was coming through as an under 20s player for having the capacity to do

that, that was, I think what was the, the very annoying thing for Wales fans when he kept on

being dropped for, for weight issues, whatever, they thought Wales famously, as everyone always

says, a country that is a bit short on heft and ball carriers, and here we have a prop

who can trundle down midfield in a way that other props simply can't, so I think that was,

what was most annoying for a lot of supporters of the team, so for that to have happened,

it was just, yeah, the cherry on the cake for Reese Carrey's comeback.

In terms of Wales then, I mean, again, to go back to what I said earlier and predictions in

this six nations making look, ridiculously foolish, I said on pods last week that I thought Wales

have probably thrown their punches against Scotland and wouldn't be able to back it up and

they absolutely did. Do we think despite the result that we have seen Wales now that have turned

a corner or is it too early to say that because they haven't won and we just haven't gotten

a big enough body of evidence, how do you view these kind of last couple of very spirited

albeit defeats and their performances?

I think if a Warren Gatlin team of his first in 0819 have put in a performance like that in Dublin,

it would have been regarded as a great performance even by those, because often even the best

Welsh teams have gone to Dublin and not done well, it's been quite some time since they're one

there. So for this under fire team to go there and to put in that performance, we're talking a lot

in recent days with Steve Boerthing and Fabian Galtier at whether people are playing for teams,

whether people believe or not, and it does look like that this completely under fire Wales team

are now finding a sense of what they can do and players like Ben Carter, completely unheralded

individual down at Dragons has come in and has just put in huge performances alongside David

Jenkins in the second row. Alex Mann yet again, 32 tackles, everyone's talking about how he's

too lightweight what he was achieving. Coming of age really for Eddie James, another good performance

outside centre, Dan Edwards had a difficult day after how well Sam Castello went against Scotland,

but we are seeing a Wales team that for three years has just looked so flimsy and unable to stay in

games. We're now seeing a team coming together that can stay in games that can challenge good teams.

Now before the tournament, I thought Scotland was the best chance of winning and they

did come so close to winning that. Italy now in Cardiff, it's a huge opportunity to win. You're

hoping that thousands of bought tickets now because the narrative was all about how low ticket

sales were. You'll hope that the Welsh public have seen the last two games and thought, yeah,

let's flood into that stadium. Let's get that win the first one in three years and let's bring

a W back to the principality stadium and they've shown enough that that can happen next weekend.

I agree. I was just about to say that. I think I certainly think they're capable of doing that.

I think you'd have them 5th out of optimism. I think you'd have them above England at this point,

which didn't look likely after the first weekend. Imagine if it was in the Wales this weekend,

how different the buildup would be. I said exactly that and the tournament

doesn't work like that. It would maybe work if you had a plate in a nation's championship

set up, clean up, but we don't. That would be really interesting because the optimism has

grown and grown and grown and that's a great way of putting it that actually the great

Wales sides to have conjured that collective heart and desire. So palpable desire to work for

each other and they move the ball nicely too at times. I think that would be an area that will

grow but to have that foundation really handy. To pick up on the Wales comparisons with England

point, I think it was in the second half, Charlie, that me and you turned to each other

and Wales had a line out where they threw it to the back and then there was a little...

They went into midfield in there and then they moved back down and then the last pass,

actually Bob Wooden's touch, but it just looked more... it just looked incisive and it looked

creative and it looked like England just haven't been getting any joy out of their strike plays,

have that and then they scored and then they went and we'll get into them but we'll get into

them later but the try that was eventually finished by Freeman looked like a coherent sort of

passage of play but they haven't been anywhere near as incisive as that. And that was what we both

turned to each other and said, well we haven't seen England attacking anywhere near that sort of

creativity or ask questions of a defence so maybe let's get on to England really quick break

and then we'll get into some of your emails about England and where they are following defeat to

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Okay so as I've flagged already, myself and Will tried to make sense of things from the stands

on Saturday night in Rome. Charlie what stands out to you? You were there. There are holes you could

pick all over this England team at the moment. Where's your focus at the moment in terms of

questions for this England side? To take it to reverse that I guess. What are they showing progress

in? Scrum, still decent. That was that they were on top against an Italian team that has been

good against everybody else. Their defensive breakdown was better until it wasn't. Until that sort

of that made the point in a piece after the game that Mara Toge's yellow card actually came from

him having previously sort of moments previously conceded a penalty for just going off his going

losing his balance before addressing the ball but generally the defend they were more disruptive

around the breakdown in which was a total breakdown dogfight overseen by referee Luke Ramos.

From there, it was the it just seemed like there was a neurosis about how they played that

crept in made them anxious and and this was probably to be expected with the amount of

backline changes they made. It felt like the kick first mentality was weighing really heavy

on a lot of them because a lot of it seemed sort of like you could see the cogs

worrying. Finnsmith getting charged down. Atkinson putting the boot to ball sort of late in the second

half which actually nearly came off the net off of a ricocheter to Bevan Rod. The way that the

second half descended into a kind of box kicking stalemate which in fairness is how they beat

Argentina in the second test in Argentina. The way that they just didn't seem to be any urgency

or incision when they did win contestable's back because that contestable battle is meant to be

and what we saw to compare it to Scotland, there just seems to be more off the back of the

kicking game and actually more options with which to complement the kicking game of the Scotland

and Ireland have had in games against England and actually Italy too. Italy's second try comes

from a kick pass that then turns into a stream of offlays which becomes a fantastic try. England

scored to stress England scored a couple of nice tries. The Freeman Mom was well worked

and and the robot won from a turnover ambition off the turnover in transition. That's important

that as well. It really did on half time. It really did and that but then to I then I think the

just the kind of collective anxiety which is never a good sign with a side caught up with them in

that last quarter and that's what it felt to me. It felt like a side that is fraying a bit and

will use will and I have used the word broken I don't think that's overstating it. The Ireland

and Scotland games what typified them was those slow starts and they sort of left themselves too

much to do didn't they. I think what's most calling about this game is in fact they were 18,

10 up with a man advantage after 52, 53 minutes. After a real brain fade of a yellow card for

Nikitaera as well and that was the moment that you think okay this hasn't it felt yet again to

stress. Fantastic occasion. Fantastic win for Italy. Italy can be loads better and England

just seemed so constricted themselves. So it was a really tense kind of it was really tense

game actually. Well on that point Angus emailed us the ruck at the times.co.uk and he said England

were eight points up Italy down to 14 and even with the most risk of earth game planning world rugby

they lose. Italy win the game by going for a cross feel kick in their own half. You've just

mentioned that Charlie. England repeatedly box kick it from that position and then are clueless

even if they win the ball back. It sums it up perfectly. England players in the week said they

looked at the data from the last two games and it showed that the game plan was actually working.

What more evidence does anybody need that it's not? Bothwick has to go his whole model of the game

is clearly based on a misinterpretation of data and statistics. Well that's okay so the data that

they'll be looking at is I think a big part of that will be the areas that they're getting into

in the pitch on the pitch. So they're getting into the 22 enough times to score the points

to win the game and I think what's hurting them at the lineout still is just this it's just so

scruffy. So they have a five metre lineout really early on that they go over the 15 metre line and

Michaela Lamaro comes through and disrupts that. That's an opportunity gone. Whether it's the balance

of the back line or the cohesion that they don't have after making the changes then they've been

disrupted by injuries. That's not giving them punch in the opposition 22. I have to say also that

I feel that and this is really recurring theme from 2018. They really got caught at the break

down against sides that are aggressive there and when they're not refereed by premiership

referees who they are in the premiership you know that you're going to get the benefit of the

doubt if you're going forward premiership referees going to make sure that jacolars arrive legally

and the defending players roll away and I think you're seeing England's sides almost shocked at

when when test sides compete really hard against them. The very last turnover from Lamaro was

if you look at it. Nobody wants to hear this and actually you know there's no point complaining

about it. It's just it's just a point that Lamaro is rewarded there for being super aggressive

because technically it's probably in the side probably possible. Maro Togi was was sort of looking

at referee Randall's going he's obviously there really you know but it's it's the breakdown is

an area that shows up by lack of urgency in attack and that lack of urgency and accuracy in

attack and that's what England are suffering from and some of that seems to be mindset because

as I say this this kick reliance just just seems to be clouding some of their decision making

I think I'm clouded and actually and actually curbing their instincts too. It feels to me like

the game plan has regressed to the early Bawthwick days when we would see England consistently get

in what you thought were quite promising positions and they'd kick it into the corner is all

about kick pressure and then they they moved away from that a bit I thought that there were

periods of a Bawthwick England team where some of their attacking play was was quite good and it

seemed like they wanted to be more of an attacking side he spoke about that but we haven't seen

any of that certainly in the last three games. Jemima email does asking has Bawthwick now lost the

dressing room well based upon what the England players have told us not at all. No we will never

be able to say that for sure we can hear sort of you know you can ask around and hear sort of an

idea of how things are going behind the scenes but that it was universal that players came out

and defended him and by extension they said look that the blame falls on us and yeah and as Will

said I agree with what Will said post matches the truth is probably somewhere in the middle

right there I think they're being worked out tactically tactically by size that have more

variation to their game as a collective certainly in Scotland Ireland and actually in Italy as well

in how as I say Italy had more incision off the back of their kicking game and they have the

X factor of manager the game changes on to game breaking moments from Manoncello who's a

phenomenal athlete and crucially is getting in the right areas to show that athleticism but yeah

it's it's it's hard to say but it doesn't look very good it doesn't know based upon what we've

seen in the in the last three matches it certainly does it on the subject of centers Rob sent us

an email where he said England hardly produce any world class centers we Bamaum Bawthwick's attack

people criticise the rugby Eddie Jones is England played people used to moan endlessly about

Lancaster picking Barrett in the centers and let's not get started on Martin Johnson picking

Shontane Harpe we wonder why so many accused Farrell and Ford of being boring tens why Marcus Smith

has been so ineffective for England why Johnny May was unfairly characterized as a kick chase merchant

and why Henry Arendell is having a disappointing England career the problem is and has been for a long

time the centers his email was a lot longer than that but I tried to pick out the points you sent

that was from Rob would I'd be really interested to know where would rob cat's guys Jonathan Joseph

so he's did say which apologies Rob I cut this part out I think he said Jonathan Joseph Manu

to a Lange as top quality England centers possibly Henry Slade or though do we have he's got lots

of caps but Henry Slade 70 odd caps that happy Lawrence has had but I would say I would say

I would have had world class performances potentially hasn't been given sort of a side to settle

into and a role to settle into and it's quite hard to know what Olylonc's role can be because is

he sort of a 12 or a 13 they posted him as a 13 and an attack and a 12 in defense is difficult

there's there are loads of kind of avenues to explore with this and I wouldn't

wouldn't sort of want to claim that I know the answer off the top of my head but Bennell flitted

between the back row and center at school settled that back row for his professional career and now

dabbles back in 12 Alfie Barbury was the same sort of dabble between three positions settled

in the forwards could they have been world class centers if they'd kept sort of playing there

there have been I would what I would say to this and what I always say to this is that yeah as I

said about Olylonc's there I would say England center partnerships have produced world class

performances in Farrell and two Lagi were 12 and 13 weren't there for that win against the

Orblax in 2019 for instance Manu Tuilagi Henry Slade have come up trumps with huge

performances but I think the issue is wanting fans wanting that to be reproduced consistently

and that hasn't been the case and maybe that's you know with injuries maybe that's with

own Farrell spending most of his task career as a 12 it's a really it's a really interesting one

Slade and Slade and Lawrence became didn't they they had the most I think they've now set a

new record for the most consecutive start since Gustard and Gustard since Gustard Carling so it's

it's a real tricky area and it's actually been I would say as well it's been accentuated over

this last six months or so because Atkinson they wanted him to play him he's not been fit

Dingwals come in being in and out with injury and now has sort of come out of favor Lawrence

the same has been fit for a couple of games here then injured and sort of moving away and when

as and it was a really good they they now want to see a Freeman they can explore Freeman's

ceiling as a 13 which I think is actually a decent pursuit I think it's a good idea

but they're doing that on a foundation of sand because they can't get the continuity

and it's really really tough I was going to mention just before Charlie said that England of course

do have a Grand Slave winning and British Irish Lions inside centre his name's Owen Farrell but

people don't like it's not fashionable to sort of don't like to talk about that. It was interesting

so this morning you may have seen that the Wallabies have signed another NRL player

Zach Lomax and I was looking and he's he's listed as six foot three 16 stone seven centre slash

wing I think all of the four NRL players they brought over a centre slash wing so they're now

going to be stacked with options for possible centres and wings coming into the 2027 World Cup

but just thinking about the dimensions of those players our players that end up that that sort

of size in England I was wondering are they thrown forward into the into blindside flanker when

maybe or into the forwards when they're when they're developing and maybe that's why England don't

have enough of those shapeable carries are they all just you know playing rugby league up in

Yorkshire and Lancashire because clearly in Australia there's a there's a huge number of

players of that sort of size and and that's perhaps why you know you mentioned Shontain Harpy but

also Sam Burgess and he Farrell himself there's a long history of England trying to bring over

these sort of dimension players to to fix that 12 jersey and to never never quite perhaps found

the the winning solution someone tweeted me and I'm really it's really annoying when you can't

credit somebody but um related to that somebody replied to a post I did on Manoncello and how is

X factor at this athleticism sort of showed up a little bit what England don't have or aren't

using and he said well the answer for England is Herbie Farm with and Eddie Jones believes that

and Herbie Farm with Dimensions he's he means probably sort of similar to similar sort of

stature to two Freeman but certainly people think that he's the answer and I should

be 12 not 13 and then are they picking him in the wrong sense of what the other thing is we so

know and that kind of worms out but we but we know that we know that there are moves being made

behind the scenes to make sure that Bernard Janssen Van Rennesberg qualifies for England which is

clearly a um concession that England could sort of do with bolstering their options there Joe

March and coming back so as recently as the last World Cup and and I wouldn't say that this

this this this center partnership was certainly had a certain role and it wasn't it wasn't ball

movement necessarily at the 20 um 2023 World Cup but to be laggy in March and certainly certainly

served the purpose in that in that tournament just on the subject of players switching positions

and Dimensions we should always remember it doesn't always work but Jamie Roberts start as a

fullback I think he made one of his first whale starts and the right wing in the end of that being

a absolute um bullicking number 12 so you know it's the type of thing that does work well how much

is that and we're probably sort of getting into the weeds too much here but how much of that is

whales with a smaller player pool knowing that that sort of having more conviction or having more

sort of a mandate to do that because the the equivalent would be and I know a lot of people

are thinking why why doesn't Freddie Stewart have a go there and the the real kind of easy

rebuttal is who's he going to play therefore because Lester have got a ton of senses that they

would prefer um is he going to have to go to I don't know on loan to notting him to play

at all probably notting him wouldn't fancy that either so the the mechanics of it I make I guess

with a smaller player pool is maybe maybe more easy herby farm with for anybody hanging on his um

six foot three and a hundred and six kegs which is basically exactly the exact same exact

sort of action just on for the wall of it yeah uh in turn let me just do some of the the admin

and the detail around both wicks position because loads of emails we've touched on a few of them

that he should go um the are a few releases statement on sunday bill swini the CEO saying they give him

their backing quite interesting within that statement that they say they've got France this week

and then the summer which seems to be the timeline at the moment but certainly no

replacement the summer being daunting as well yeah so away in joeberg you've got a way to play

Fiji and then you're traveling again to argentina to play argentina it's a really tough run of

fixtures for england but my point is it that the steve borthwick is not about to lose his job it

doesn't look look like even if england art as we probably expect lose in paris final email maybe

to throw it ahead to super saturday which is from gregg which is a two parter we'll hopefully get

to uh the other part of your email gregg later in the week but one part of that was how does

borthwick's selection for italy impact the france game because charlie we've seen steve borthwick

from scottland to island be loyal say make make amends they didn't do that they were even worse against

island he absolutely ripped everything up went fresh new ideas for italy that hasn't worked so where

do you think that possibly leaves england in terms of selection heading to paris then it's it's

the continuous tournament has been a tournament of sticker twist hasn't it and balancing that is i

think a kind of an awareness that borthwick has got to got to maintain relationships with these

players and i think it would feel i wonder what's the kind of knock on effect of bringing

george forward back straight away on the confidence of someone like fin smith because theoretically if

you continue with that ten twelve thirty and it's going to be better than it was in italy like

quite sebackinson like what's the impact if you say i actually know you're right yeah it's it's

so so difficult and that was always that was always the i think a lot of the in a lot of ways

that side was set up to be more bans and there were some they don't get me wrong there some good

before i thought kane merley was really good um for instance i thought robert was good over the

ground and sort of hit and miss in the air for him because he's so good there usually is george

furbank finally ready to sort of and that's kind of sums it up is they feel like they've been waiting

for him for a long time and he would be coming back coming back for a last game of a championship

as a shot to nothing in in france it's um they're rocking a half place with a lot do they they don't

seem keen to rip up the sort of the three sevens back row chan cunning himself was one of the he came

on obviously um in odd circumstances with um tom curries withdrawal but he wasn't they they

didn't want to get him into that game that that that what what was really um quite a quite a stark

aspect of england's performance and actually borthwicks kind of coaching performance was that

there was i think it was nine i think i think it's at least minutes from their bench was a double

of what it what england used about hundred and 180 to 90 and 90 minutes across eight replacements is

i mean jesus it's tiny some of them were getting three minutes seven minutes i think i think

noo kandiki chan cunning himself yeah um hemipolo didn't get much either feels like that reflects

the general anxiety yeah to me where because previously england were comfortable being proactive

using that bench now it seems like they were tentative and hanging in that game and that's tricky

i'll say it once again thank you to all of you that have emailed in the ruck at the time stock code

at uk we will try and get to more of your emails on england on thursday when i'll be in paris with

alix and will when you get into paris charlie friday friday first thing okay fine so it'll be me

alixan and will on thursday in paris we'll get through a few more of your emails let's tear up them

fellows super sad today the end of the six nations island scotland we haven't mentioned too much

about island yet i mean they've had a really interesting six nations haven't they they were

below par and if arrow came out and hammered them after defeat to france on the opening night

they've won three scints with a mixture of performances very good against england not as

convincing against italy and and on the on friday night against whales but they have won and now they

host scotland that they have such a good record again so we could have an island team that have one

four of their four of their five games this six nations by the end of it may be important so repeat

the context that they they came in with which was lent to sort of grinding out results without looking

great ulster ulster looking great monster maybe struggling a bit and then also they had a lot

of their big guns injured including the first three loose head props in the in the pecking order

and i think they've done really well to get to where they have done i think fans of theirs who

are used to success in the six nations over recent years probably a little bit underwhelmed with

the flatter performances so certainly france then italy a little bit and then whales a little bit

the beacon of the the probably the most convincing is probably i was going to say it was one of the

one of the better performances of of the of the championship that their performance against

against england notwithstanding what france have done and obviously what scotland did to france

but yeah this feels defined i think i think if they give up this losing record sorry winning record

to scotland that ends their time and i really horribly flat nose well i was just about to say who

who do you have as favorites for that game do you give it to island with the the recent history

against scotland or do you give it to the scots because their performance in this championship

has overall been better than islands before the tournament i thought scotland would win in

Dublin that was my prediction but i thought that that would come off the back of them losing to

france and of island not being in the championship and of scotland not being in the championship either

so the fact that they are both in the championship and it is now the big statement game early on

in the day does alter the picture slightly and it i think tilts it slightly more in island's

favour but as we've shown time and time again over the recent weeks that they they keep on

everyone keeps on surprising us in in fun ways just just one thing i wanted to say on the

subject of island what struck me as most interesting is there's so much talk about an aging team

and regenerating i think when we talk about regenerating we think of 19 and 20 year olds and yet what

how how good Andy Farrell has been at regenerating with Robert Balakun and Stuart McCloskey who are both

just either side of 30 or few years and you can it shows you don't need to regenerate with you know

young pups you can regenerate with people who are you know dying for a chance and they take it so

and transformative sort of styles of players right in in Balakun who's super fast as well as

being a good footballer and with McCloskey you can just do absolutely everything and see me speaking

of big 12s yeah i mean there's a prime example isn't it so island scotlands that the first game

on super saturday be a big chance for scotland that as well to win four games this championship

for both teams really it's going to be so fascinating the next game 440 whales Italy again for

the Italians here this is another significant match isn't it a chance to win their third this

championship whales aiming to just win one for the first time in ages it's quite it's cross i'm

backing whales here i think i think i'm gonna win i think it's such an intriguing cloud i think

that the funny thing for Italy is that it will be the first time they've won three games in the six

nations but they probably still will finish fourth because of the because of the points which is

a shame for them if they do win three and and still don't quite break into the top half of the

table but before the championship i thought whales would perhaps beat scotland and lose to italy

and i think again slightly different picture i think it wouldn't surprise me if whales won i

i feel like it could be building towards them finally getting that first win for the first time

in three years but again italy of one the past two in card if so who knows who knows and this is

a championship where predictions if we haven't learned by now making predictions is a foolish thing

France England the final game the game that was talked about before a ball had been kicked

as a potential title decider a grand slam decider well France might be able to decide the title

England are absolutely million miles away from that i mean the only reason really here lad so

i could give for England to do the result is the thing that people have been saying this has

been a championship of the unexpected that in terms of form in terms of how the teams are playing

in terms of where England are it is very difficult to to make a case for them isn't it speaking

of predict predetermined predictions i was one thing i was convinced about um was that

seabalt that would go to france with a smart plan to take away frances sort of strengths

i'd say that i that confidence hasn't survived into this into this last round and

do you know what it does remind me of though is when England beat island with the marker smith drop

goal and that was that was an Irish team that was at twicken i think it's different context but it

was an Irish team that were formidable no one gave England a chance and they were able to do it

but it is those sorts of straws that i think you're having to club chat to to make a case for England

no exactly that and i don't actually think they could play well in the context of what they've

delivered so far this this championship and lose by 20 because um actually i was watching sort of

watching that france got the game thinking oh no that's this is what um England are going to have

faced next week they just they just do seem to they have they've had this championship with

you know after the Wales game they were playing yeah a smarting Scotland and a smarting island

then in it in Italy side there were at home and and fired up for this historic result and now

they've got a france either just been panced by Scotland and um will be fired up to sort of

prove a point uh well i tell you what we will leave it there we will have more build up to the

final weekend on Thursday the one thing actually algan that a doony at the top of the pod you said you

had gone through and you would worked out your your favorite six nations weekends it would be

remiss of me to ask you what came out on top what what what can you give us a flavor of that list here

we are i've been phoning it into on now but now it's time to do probably okay finally you're saying

i i only considered six nations weekends on the basis that five nations tournaments were uneven

so not everyone played on the same weekend having said that that is very unfair on the last

ever weekend of the five nations in 1999 because that's when Scotland won in parish 3622

and whales beating on 3231 at wembley which not only deprived England of a grand slam but then

handed the trophy to Scotland and of course now Scotland are looking to win the title for the first

time since then okay my top ten and these were these are in chronological order rather than

necessarily migrator but um the first one is two thousand round five so it's Italy's first ever

six nations france 42 Italy 31 nine tries Italy managed for that's a pretty good game i think in

Paris island 19 whales 23 whales won in Dublin they had a habit of winning it in Dublin a lot in

the nineties but that was a great away win roon and ogaris first six nations i actually remember

that game vividly 20 year old Reese Williams debut at fullback as well and then England going for

the grand slam Scotland's trying to avoid the wooden spoon and Scotland win 1913 in the calcata cap

on the hot game Duncan hot game i believe yeah so that's pretty good isn't he got a whales away

when you've got denying England a grand slam which is what gets everyone out of bed in the morning

and Scotland avoiding the wooden spoon as well 2003 round one Italy beating whales at the

stadia flaminio not bad England France which was always the title decided around that time and

that was the England team that finally won the grand slam and then eventually went on to win the

world cup and then somewhat relevant but different way round to this weekend island beat Scotland 36

six at Murrayfield which now doesn't feel like that bigger thing but at the time island hadn't

won at Murrayfield since 1985 so that was an 18 year bit of history broken so that wasn't bad

2004 round three Italy 20 Scotland 14 a lot of Italy wins feature in these weekends for obvious

reasons island won at Twickenham 1913 our England hadn't lost at home for five years and they were

world cup champions when that happened of course and then whales gave France a really good going

card of 29 22 almost leveled the scores at the end but couldn't quite do it can I forward us to

to the top of the list yes okay you can I mean I think I think the best looking at all I think

the best weekend was the great super Saturday of 2015 the round five when you had whales island

and England all pushing for it and it is the super Saturday that that everyone remembers because

like I say you had all three teams going for it they all had to rack up a score and they all did

a really good job of doing it and then on the subject of prop tries Vance on do batty oh my great

team scores at Twickenham in that 55 35 England France game I I've looked at them all there isn't

a perfect six nations weekend but I do think that that 2015 Super Saturday was the best weekend in

in in six nations history and if anyone wants to hear the other members of the list feel free

to email us and I will send them all over to you there's the fewest notes on that one isn't it

you've always got a load a load of notes written for each weekend and then the 2015 one is the

great Super Saturday everybody knows which one he's talking about and I think the thing we were

talking about just before we came on that was the great Super Saturday that established Super Saturday

as a concept really the following three tournaments the championship was all decided before the

final weekend every time so we should all just take great joy in the fact that there are three teams

in the running this weekend and that's exactly what I was about to do Elgin link it back to this weekend

at least we have a Super Saturday where there are different teams in the running and let's see how

it pans out next pod for you on Thursday Charlie see you in Paris you will Elgin you a week weekend

off for you Elgin is it a week and I'll see you Saturday I'll be watching them all with great relish

from afar and then looking forward to well talking about that talking about the results see who wins

and then well back to a bit of normality and then well if in just a month's time we'll be at

twickening again for the red roses return after the World Cup we've got lots of stuff to look

forward to the next weeks and months women six nations as well this has been the rock thank you very

much for listening the journalists rugby podcast from the times and the sunday times thanks for

listening to the ruck before you go a final word on the work Aliens is doing behind the scenes

we often talk about the stars of the Gallagher Prem or the national side but we all know these

journey start at local community clubs that's why Aliens is launching a special edition of the

Aliens Future Fund created specifically for you our listeners Aliens is offering grants ranging

from five hundred pounds to a thousand pounds to help make rugby more inclusive and sustainable

whether your local club needs a new kit or better facilities to help today's young players

become tomorrow's heroes this is your chance to help them out your move sign up for the Aliens

Future Fund now to nominate your local rugby club let's support the clubs that shape the future

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