Hour 2 - One Juror vs. Everyone

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

1:00I'm going to be talking about the thing that I can be brought to bear here. Clay, I would just note the very astute observer of, well, a lot of things online. Mike Surnavitch, he shared this on X and it's something I just wanted to put into this conversation. Quoting Surnavitch here, he wrote, we knew it would be a hung jury. What's crazy is we thought it would be a majority to convict with a couple of dedicated holdouts. Instead it was only one man who stood up for the three dead children. That's absolutely true. I thought that you thought it was going to go this way. No, I thought I could. I think it's it's a dark. It's very dark. It's a dark day. I thought at least the three men. I agreed. I thought three men would say no. And I thought the women would roughly split. That's what I would say that too. That's right where I was. I thought it was going to be a and just absolutely deadlocked as a jury can be. All right, let's get to this now. We have a lot of calls out of talkbacks.

2:00Antoinette North Carolina. What's going on? Antoinette? Hi guys. This is disturbing on some of the levels. It reminds me of the movie 12 Angry Men. But I think that jury needs to remember that she not only killed one child, she killed three. So while she's basically strangling one and watching the fear in that child's face, she's going to the second one and then going to a third one. And the fact she's in her husband out to me is premeditated. And it is evil, just so evil and sad. It's not just shocking. It's sad that our society has come to that point. I wonder if these jurors are intimidated at all by maybe the harassment they might be getting. If they're found out, you know, that they said in... Oh, Antoinette, I think that's very real. You know, there's a woman who is now facing criminals or some like lunatic middle-aged woman, clearly a lib, probably a big, probably a big comelow voter, who was intimidating the jury and is facing charges for it now.

3:02So you have people that have already shown that they are unhinged. And yes, sir. No, you're right. I mean, I was just going to build on what you're saying. Yeah, it's... And so, Antoinette, I think that's a very good point. I think that you have to remember it's Massachusetts. Okay. In Massachusetts, a lot of these people are going to go back to communities that are very left-wing. And Massachusetts is the second most liberal state maybe. I mean, it's in like the top three for sure. For maybe one and Massachusetts two would be my guess. Extremely blue state. I mean, I went to college in Massachusetts for four years, so I'm pretty familiar with the place. And it's extremely blue. So you're going to go back into communities where I can just tell you right now. For some of those guys, they were thinking not the one who was brave. And by the way, that guy's a hero. And I hope it comes out who it is, although he's going to face death threats. He's going to face horrible stuff. But whoever it is refused to bend the knee to the madness. And it's really admirable. Clay.

4:02Yeah, I just want to dress this directly to women. Because I'm still getting emails from women. This is my wife's argument. I didn't really think through it until she made it. She's continuing to hammer it. Lindsey Clancy being found not guilty is not pro woman. It's the worst thing that could happen to women. Because if your argument is Lindsey Clancy is so emotional and so hormonal that she can't avoid killing her own children under stress. How can women argue that they should be CEOs or presidents? Or in any position of extreme power. If we're so hormonal, we can't even avoid killing our own children. And again, I think that's really important for the women out there. And just to echo it further, men aren't allowed to defend ourselves by saying our stress level got too high. Our hormones were out of whack. Our testosterone levels were too high or too low. Imagine if a man walked into a courtroom accused of rape and said,

5:02Hey, yes, I did it. But my hormone levels were too high on testosterone. That's what drove me to do it. And I'm going to say, I'm going to get a new testosterone. That's what drove me to do it. And therefore I was driven insane and I can't be held responsible for raping you because my male hormones made me incapable of telling right from wrong. All of you would justifiably say, that's insane. That's what Lindsey Clancy is saying. You could even say like a road rage incident. As you know, there are these horrible road rage incidents sometimes where someone will cut someone else off. And they just snapped and they pull out of gun and they shoot the person in that red light. or they follow them and they attack them in a parking lot or you know that's it that's a momentary snap a psychological snap for those people some of them have never committed a violent crime before they are a hundred percent responsible for what they have done they are a hundred percent guilty for the crime they have committed it's not oh I just got so in the moment that I now no longer

6:02responsible people generally when they're doing a heinous violent crime are not in a great frame of mind that's usually not what's going on so I am I am outraged I'm a Paul the whole thing here is crazy with what's with the outcome is let's get to Justin in Ohio what's going on Justin how've been doing guys we're good I mean in our under the circumstances we're good thanks for calling him what are you thinking well me personally I think the prosecution needs to pivot a little bit and needs to bring up charges on the defense attorney for bringing them bringing you know letting everybody know in the nation and around the world that it was a male juror and because that guy just made all three of those jurors whether they were on the right side wrong side he just made all three of those guys very in a very dangerous spot you know walking out of that courthouse with every nut that's on her side wanting to kill him yeah I look I think they're sure to that thank you for

7:08the call I hope that this juror just comes public and says look she killed her kids I'm not willing to let her walk she could be out of the insane asylum in 40 days because I do think there's a lot of people myself included you included buck who would see him as a hero and I think this is important I think this is very important it's hard to stand for right when other people around you are berating you and this guy think about the what he's been through for the last six days all of these women have been hectoring yelling at him probably screaming at him sometimes the other two men it seems like have folded do you know how hard it is to be the one person who is willing to say this isn't bright it's so hard to do it's easy to go with the herd this guy is saying no I'm not going to be convinced that what I know to be true is actually false and that's so rare lots of

8:14people say they would do it but when you're actually in the line of fire most people are willing to fold you worry more about being liked and being in the in crowd then you do about what's doing what's being right there's the meme that sometimes you'll see of the guy with all the swords pointed at him or the guy who's standing up saying no all of you guys are wrong this person is doing it and so I applaud him and I hope that his bravery can stand as a testament for others going forward who might find themselves not necessarily on a jury trial but metaphorically in a situation where you're being told to do something that you know is not the right choice but the societal pressure and the peer pressure is so overwhelming all of us have been in situations like that this guy is actually rare to be willing to say actually know you're all wrong and I'm not changing my mind

9:15Roger in Syracuse New York Roger you're on it's my understanding that this woman had been working as a registered nurse in labor and delivery and for no one at her workplace to raise a red flag on how she was completing her assignments is number one so she is in clear mind to take care of other infants in the workplace yeah she looks up and excuses are husband if this is not premeditation be out of reasonable that I don't know what is and I'm surprised nobody's looking for the death penalty in this woman that one not two but three times I'm sorry I don't think Massachusetts thank you for the call I don't think Massachusetts has the death penalty I agree with Roger on on you know intellectually but yeah I think that's right I don't think that they could have got her on state charges for the death penalty in Massachusetts it is different state to state but yes there was a premeditation element of this in that she did research she knew she was going to do this and she did research I know there's a point of now she was very effective at murdering

10:17her own defenseless children but very ineffective at killing herself I don't think that's just a a sidebar I don't think that's something because for all the parents out there I know you feel this way parents will kill themselves a hundred times before they would harm their child in any kind of way like this and that's part of this I think that also hasn't gotten nearly the discussion attention deserves okay this woman is so depressed she's having such a terrible time she's gonna kill her kids before she tries to kill herself why I know you're gonna say oh but she's because she's still not in her right mind what if she's just evil it strikes me as that's an it's an evil choice it's not just a a emotionally unstable choice if she killed herself there would be nothing here other than a funeral to go to instead she killed three children her own children and you know Clay I saw there was a story recently about about a sorority girl who killed her own baby when it came out and this didn't even this just happened she was just sentenced I think recently she

11:18I'm very attractive young woman you know like probably 18 19 years old or something and she strangled her own baby after it came out and she just got she was sentenced to prison by the way as she should have been but the baby was born you're not gonna just you're not gonna give it up for adoption I know so many families they would adopt the baby in a heartbeat give it a life like what there's something our society has elevated the demonic among a set of women when it comes to their children and babies this is what I'm sorry but this raises that issue in a way that I think is unavoidable there's something I do think it ties into abortion I do think it ties into a place like Massachusetts just recently saying you can have an abortion all nine months of a pregnancy all nine months a baby at nine months in the womb is a baby I mean and at eight months a conception I'm just using shorthand here no human being with two brain cells to rub together things that a baby at eight months isn't a baby but Massachusetts says you can kill it so there's a backdrop here for

12:20all of this there's a backdrop here and I think that that's something else to take into account uh androon Massachusetts that's I didn't even see this Andrew you want to talk about what I just talked about go ahead oh I'm sorry it's an email here we go androos says the state just passed an abortion law where it's legal to the moment of birth it's not surprising that these women are siding with Lindsey Clancy yeah yeah they they cl- nobody would be doing click we agree on this nobody would be doing this whole Lindsey Clancy's uh uh it's not her fault she's the victim if she had strangled and murdered let's say like her or let's say she had poisoned her two adult children and her husband or something nobody be saying oh I so hard for her she took too much in the show off yeah I just think it's an easy question too what would you want to happen to Lindsay Clancy if she murdered your three kids if your three kids were in a park and you let them go play and this woman showed up with an exercise band and strangled your three kids to death in a park

13:27would you say oh that's just her that's just her hormones she can't control herself would you want her to suffer no harm whatsoever for killing your kids would you want nothing to happen to her and if if your answer is that you'd be fine with that and you you'd be fine with her going to an insane hospital at least your logic is consistent what I think is happening is people are okay with her killing her own kids yes but they wouldn't be okay with her killing their kids this is what I mean about the ancient Roman thing where you could kill within your own household then it wasn't considered a crime um because you were effectively the rest of the household was the the patriarch's property if you will including his wife and his children um but you know guys we're we're staring into the abyss right now we're having this conversation altogether here and I understand it's bleak it's dark it's unsettling it's upsetting but there's also beautiful things that are happening every day and you can be a part of saving

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16:33because he was in love with another woman and he's now serving hard time in prison. I mean I I think it's a good question Linda thank you for calling in can you think buck can you think can any of you think of a man who killed his own kids and was found not guilty nope of the murder of his kids I would argue I don't think in recent history certainly in the judicial system we have no would not would not happen men are held to account for murdering their own children most women I would think are in this case the system has failed and again it's one thing for one woman to make a poor choice in her life the worst possible choice to me the number of women lining up to say she can't be held responsible who think they are pro women and that they are somehow advancing a positive story for women you're really going back to the 17 and 1800s and basically saying women can't be given responsibility just grab your pearls and fall on your fainting couch and let men

17:39take care of everything that's what you're arguing when you say a pregnant woman who murdered her own children can't possibly be held responsible for doing so because her hormones were out of whack it's actually the definition of being anti woman not pro woman home break ins maybe one of the worst things a family might ever come into contact with have to contend with that's the invasion of your home coming face to face with the intruders is even worse unfortunately it does happen all too often FBI says about three thousand of them a day nationwide that's twice a minute a home invasion going on somewhere in this country so you need to be prepared now today for that possibility and saber for non lethal home itself defense is the best and most trusted name in the business they've got incredible proud a powerful protection tools for you and your family saber home defense launcher has seven impact or pepper projectile that will stop the threat because when fear hits and you have to defend yourself it's too late to make a plan then you have to get it done

18:43now my family has saber products clays family has saber products carry carry saber pepper spray we've got the saber home defense launcher you've got to check this stuff out go to saber protect dot com s a b r e protect dot com or call eight four four eight two four safe all right welcome back in here to clay and buck we obviously taking a lot of calls and talking about this Lindsey clancy trials very upsetting to a lot of people it's a mistrile so she was not found guilty I do think clay they will try her again I don't think fair the mistrile is not yet effective they're going to have a trial hearing again at two the Massachusetts support could still step in and we could have another crazy wrinkle here that could allow 11 jurors jurors to let her walk so the mistrile is not effectively effective yet even yet right I mean there is a I but I would say realistically you got like a 5% shot that the court if we get to a place where the mob of maniacs what they're

19:50on the 11 side here not the one juror they can just be so adamant in their lunacy that the appeals court of the state of Massachusetts is going to remove a juror because he's not giving the quote right verdict based on quote the law now you're just saying that like this is a I mean this is almost makes a parody of the entire system like what's the point of having a jury in the first place we got Jim Jordan I want to bring him up but buck bill maloojen just posted the appeal that has been filed to the Supreme Court I want to read a couple of sentences here for you buck and I want Jim Jordan you can hear this as well it says a juror is refusing to follow the law and here the removal is particularly important because the jurors reasoning reflects a bias against those who suffer from debilitating mental illness a protected category okay buck what are the

20:51chances that he is simply saying as part of these deliberations you're all retarded apologies for anybody who's offended they are saying that according to this filing the removal is necessary because the jurors reasoning reflects a bias against those who suffer from debilitating mental illness maybe it's not that they're like legit yeah Congressman yeah Congressman Jordan it's past it to you thank you for giving us your time obviously the big news today what do you think about all this you take it away well I think you I think you just said it that that's the point and if that's what this guy what the judge is saying about this particular juror or what they're saying about this particular juror that just makes absolutely no sense and I think the judge is probably accurate in saying this this guy's got it you know he's got to go yeah it's

21:53sad when you see this the greatest country in the world and the in the system we've set up our constitutional system the three different equal branches of government and all the attacks on all those and how it's eaten now down to the basic level where it's supposed to be a trial by the jury of your peers where that doesn't seem to be working exactly the which should be either so yeah we'll see well I mean we'll just see what happens here I guess there's still some deliberation to take place I haven't followed as close as you guys have here in the last few hours can I just ask you congressman I this is you know we take I know you're we usually you're here and you got your congressman had on not your congressman jacket because you tend not to wear our blazers we all know the one we have of you has I don't even know who this guy is with a blazer on in the photo that they put up on the screen on our YouTube but anyway um have you just in your in your day-to-day experience whether in DC or at home in Ohio come across people oh particularly women

22:59who think like the husband did it or that this they're very I have and have you been surprised by this or have you just been away from this entirely and haven't really had much personal experience of it no it's been the latter I haven't I have not talked to anyone particularly about this and been following it and here's somewhat and then we'll just got on here in the last couple minutes and listen to you guys recap and I'm thinking oh why didn't know that that sounds kind of crazy to me so no I've not been followed that closely all right let's go in gender oh go ahead Clay yeah no I was gonna say let's go in you're on the road right now uh yeah there are only and I'm curious if you would sign on to this because you know the the story on the ground better than then certainly we do there have been reports that there are about 20 toss up house seats that is real battlegrounds you're traveling the nation um working on these battlegrounds do you think that's right um are there about 20 and how do you see what's the ground look like from your perspective no it's it's it's maybe it's maybe a few more but there aren't as many as in the past

24:04because of the redistricting and the gerrymandering that the democrats down and redistricting we've done here in this past cycle uh so yeah it's a smaller number seats but I think we can pick up a last night I flew back into Ohio and did an event for Derek Maren who's running against Marcy Capter that's one of the pickup opportunities we have um where we could we could that that district was redrawn it's now uh more favorable to Republicans so um I think we got a chance but our message over these last 60 60 days of my judgment has got to be plain and simple if you a let uh if you allow democrats to win here's where they're going to go all the crazy policy and we have to just lay that out I mean remember nine months and four days ago mom donny was sworn in his maribar largest city and he said in his speech I was elected as a democrat socialist I will govern as a democrat socialist we have to replace the progenitor of rugged individualism with the warmth of collectivism he believes it he told us he's going to do it he's implementing that and frankly the the the party once great party of fdr and jfk is now run by these democrat socialist and they

25:06they're bent on doing what they told us they were going to do and it is scary so I think we have to tell our our voters to persuade republicans and like-minded independence come out we have to tell them how real this is and that they're in there and can on doing what they said which is very very scary in my judgment uh breaking news book CNN is reporting that the massachusetts supreme court has granted a hearing for lindsey clancy's defense wow yeah that is coming down right now sorry congressman I know uh but we'll continue but I just want to give people the absolute latest there again CNN breaking news banner right now massachusetts supreme court grants a hearing for the clancy defense to try to get the one juror kicked off who is preventing a not guilty verdict I would like to think sorry conxon would just a quick reflection on this one I would like to think that this is just to show that they are being given a hearing and process if they actually remove this juror the whole

26:12thing as a farce and this is just the frenzied mob with pitchforks and torches getting their way which in this case it's it's uh it's kind of the reverse of a of a lynching situation if they want they want the guilty person to go free they're not trying to take an innocent person and make them guilty they want a guilty person to walk I am it's disgusting clay honestly yeah so that is the latest okay back to back to we're talking to congressman Jim Jordan thank you by the way for your super great quotes from the wall street journal profile that is out online but is coming out now on saturday sunday I was saying on the air congressman only took 22 years of me being in media for someone to write something nice about me so thank you for the quotes that that article came out pretty well no it was a great article and and well deserved for you guys uh but they only took like one I had a whole bunch of great things that said about y'all because I really think you guys do a tremendous job and I put some I tried to put some funny things

27:13there but maybe they didn't think it was funny I was I was talking about bucks serve of 189 miles an hour I was talking about sports and everything else but they they just went with one basic generic one in the in the online piece but no it was a great piece and you in well deserve for you guys and and the good work that you do thank you we are back to you now back to politics if I can for no really it's very nice very nice some people are saying Jim Jordan very nice um what talked to me about how you think the GOP messaging is going on I it's a word that we've said so many times I think people are sick of it of of hearing it but all of what we can see in the polls says that this is what the election will turn on this is what the mid-term return on it turn on it's affordability how do you think the GOP is doing on this right now do you think that uh there need to be some tweaks made or just stay on message stay on task and we should be able to defend the house and senate majorities well I always say you know we we make the job too complicated it's pretty basic what we tell the voters we're going to do and then it you know and if they elect you go do what you

28:16say we've done that we we told them we cut taxes we did we told them to secure the border we did we told them we'd be for school choice that was in the big beautiful bill also this welfare reform that we put in it's actually making a difference uh and people's lives and also I think that's message one message to is we understand things cost too much we get that but um it's not all bad out there you saw the jobs not uh report the jobs numbers today or or way above what most most people thought they would be so our economy is pretty good but again things cost too much so we have to I think recognize that but I do think what I said earlier is the key message particularly now that we're down to less than nine weeks until election day it's there they want to ruin what this country's always given its people this simple idea you you've got a goal you got to dream you work hard good things happen they will ruin that with their crazy left-wing policies he talked mom donny talked about the warm-up collectivism I was I was given a speech out that republican Jewish coalition in Vegas on sunday and I said I've seen the warmth of collectivism I wrestled in the Soviet Union in 1987 I mean I tell people I was in Moscow in February Moscow in February it's like 200 below zero

29:23there is no food and stores there's just a terrible great dismal place that's where this left-wing craziness will take us and we have to let voters know that uh and how we're we're we're for the principles and the policies that we think make America special so I do think that's a central theme and we have to pound that over the these next next next eight and a half weeks Congressman Jim Jordan appreciate you being with us sir thanks for making the time as always and to have a great Labor Day weekend all right take care you guys too that is always good to hear from Jim Jordan the court is in recess until 2 p.m. Eastern so that is what 15 minutes from now and again CNN is reporting that there is a hearing underway right now with the uh Massachusetts Supreme Court they changed their headline somewhat I can't hear it buck um so the team in New York they can turn up the sound uh if if this Massachusetts appeals court weighs in and says that they're removing that

30:29juror and then and then they're pushing for a verdict the whole thing is rigged and it's a joke and it's preposterous it's an of deeply unfunny joke but it's uh it's a farce so that's where we are we'll see uh look we got a headline a week ago uh about the USDA changing the way American beef producers can get their products to easier um and get it product in 85% of all beef and all meat products are now coming from out of the country if you are out there right now and you are trying to make sure that you have the best possible meat for your family and you want it coming in from the United States only you want US grown beef you want to be able to take care of everything good ranchers is making a difference for you it's only only American meat for you and your family the number one company delivering 100% American meat to your door with 25,000 five star reviews on

31:31trust pilot for a limited time you can get a free ground beef bundle with your first good ranchers order four pounds of 100% American angus ground beef to stock in your freezer visit good ranchers dot com slash clay to claim your free ground beef bundle plus when you start a plan you get free meat with every order this is amazing four pounds of 100% American angus ground beef right in your freezer when you order today good ranchers dot com slash clay free four pound ground beef bundle that's good ranchers dot com slash clay good ranchers dot com American meat delivered welcome back in clay and buck if you're out there right now going into the weekend I know many of you are going to be on the road for labor day and you might be out there thinking to yourself boy

32:32holidays are going to be expensive maybe it's time to try to get those finances in order before you start your holiday perfect 10 mortgage you guys are flooding perfect 10 mortgage they can wipe out your entire credit card debt they can get you your personal loans removed they can also get you a great mortgage that allows you to take out the home equity values that you have created if you want your financial house in order go to perfect 10 mortgage dot com you give them 10 minutes they can close in 10 days they can put you back in a good financial footing that's perfect one zero mortgage dot com put it in your phones put your financial house in order perfect one zero mortgage dot com we got a bunch of calls uh let's see here um we're waiting for an update Craig in Florida I'll go to first he's been waiting the longest hey guys uh listen my question is uh what about the civilization of the kids if this thing goes sideways like it looks like it is uh can the feds bring

33:36a lawsuit that way thanks yeah this would get into a challenging situation we just talked about this some with the Luigi Mangione case where there is a double double jeopardy component to this in other words if Lindsey Clancy were found not guilty under state charges there is an argument that it would be hard to charge her for something similar under federal related charges um and again this is a state violation because there was no crossing state lines uh that are involved so I think that would be challenging it's a smart question maybe maybe you could do if you wanted to get creative clay you could say the internet searches for like how as part of the conspiracy it's essentially conspiracy to commit murder and you can I'm saying there are ways that if you really wanted to you could try to make this uh uh a a federal case but you would face a lot of challenges and because what they usually what people know happens plays there's sometimes a couple get off

34:36on the state charges for excessive force and then if it's a Democrat federal administration a Democrat White House guess what they'll do deprivation of rights you know that's what they'll so so they'll hit you with a different charge of the same thing anyway I think the challenge becomes that it is a real difficulty in order to get any of this um additionally charged if she's not guilty john and sandiego what you got for us and playing back I really enjoy your show and your opinions are always well reason however I think in this case if you had the practical experience that I've had with a daughter who went through postpartum depression you would have a different opinion of this situation would you like me to explain well let me ask you this john I mean certainly we'll take your explanation do you have sons it's a daughter and yeah but do you have you have a son and if he

35:36said he was super depressed and he killed his three kids would you say the dad shouldn't be held responsible what here's the problem is that women are different than men and it's hard for us to understand this I watched a girl who I raised you know thirty thirty five years and she changed it was like somebody you didn't recognize she became dangerous and we had to have her hospitalized I I think it's a shame that nobody got this girl into therapy when she needed it she wasn't she was in she was an extensive therapy just to be clear she was seeing doctors and had medicine and had her husband helping her and you know they just aren't allowed to involuntarily commit people easily in places like Massachusetts thank you for the call we're glad that your daughter is okay my position in general would be and the reason I asked if he had a son if your son I've got sons right if one of my sons god forbid did something like this I can't imagine anything that

36:37would make me say hey he shouldn't be held responsible for this because of his mental makeup if you are saying women should be treated differently than men when they kill their kids I just fundamentally disagree with you I think the standard is pretty simple from moms and dads don't kill your kids if you do you should end up in prison at minimum rest of your life