I Hid My Heroin Addiction from My Wife for 3 Years w/ Jesse Sanchez | The Hopeaholics Podcast #361

0:00And then I had my third sponsor. He didn't even take me to step one. He's like, maybe you're not gonna call it. Oh, that pissed me off. Well, it's all wordplay, dude. It's all whatever. Like, just, it's not about the substance, but I had no idea what any of that meant. And it took me a while to realize that like, any substance, any mind-altering substance in me, it's, I'm using it as a solution, whether it looks normal or not. Welcome back to the Hope of Holly's podcast. I'm your girl Natalie Eva Marie. And I'm Chad Carlson, and you're listening to the number one addiction and mental health podcast. And you guys, if you or a loved one is struggling, make sure you head to askevenaree.com or chatic.com and chat with one of our AI companions 24-7. Or check the number right here on the screen. Together, we are breaking the stigma around addiction and mental health and fighting the fentanyl epidemic. Now, let's get into that episode. Come in and they're just like,

1:00you are the greatest human in the world. And I'm like, oh my god, here we go. She starts floating in the air. You see your head get a little heavy. You're like, hop. No, we're not. No, I can't see you doing that. No. But I believe that people are nice to you. Insanely. It's sometimes it's like, yeah. Okay. So how can you be mean just want to nice to you? It's true statement. Jesse, welcome to the Hope of Hallex podcast. How long you been waiting to come on? Oh man, a long time now. I think I tried to come out like a year ago. Pre or post, you know. Pre, pre, pre. Yeah, you're here now. Yeah, yeah. God's got his ways, right? It's much better podcast. Well, I mean, first we have to say like, Jesse is not just a random guest. Jesse is a part of our recover out loud.

2:01Community, he's in our weekly Tuesday night meetings. You're a part of the crew. You're a part of like the whole family, the movement, the vibe. So to have you in the studio is a big deal for us. Yeah, it's a big deal for me too. And it's something I've been looking forward to for a long time. My mom, my mom out because she was here earlier. I suggest he's coming in and she was wondering if you were going to do the podcast shirtless. Yeah. I thought about it. I was going to. I was like, I should, but making shirts, you know, wanting to show off the shirt. Yeah, I can't. I can't. So tell us about the shirt before we get rolling because that shirt's actually a big deal. Oh, yeah, this shirt. So let's see, where do I start? I lost my brother. I'm going to mess up the date now that I'm on the spot. But it was June. I think he passed away 14th and I found out the 16th.

3:04And he overdozed on fentanyl, you know, died from fentanyl poisoning. And I started making shirts after his death. And I always wanted to do something. It's kind of like a living amends for me. So this shirt is in his memory. And the back says in memory of Julian. And says the only way out is through. And I plan on selling them on my website. And all of the profit coming from these will go towards helping someone get off the streets because that's where he died. He was on the streets homeless. And if I can help someone turn that around, that'd be just one person. That's all I want to do. Yeah. One at a time. Yeah. Because I mean, there's that guy out there. Mr. Good. Victor the good boss. Victor the good boss. And he's like crushing it. And you know what? He's making a shit ton of money on Facebook.

4:04I'm sure. Because his Facebook posts are just millions. Like every time it's crazy to see how much money he raises. I know. Yeah. It's actually super inspiring. That's part of what inspired this. I'm like, how can I help someone? And I had no idea how to do any of this. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It inspires me, you know, to like I actually, my preference of working with people are the people that are just fucking down in the dumps. You know, that's just my preference. It doesn't mean that I don't treat every addict the same. It's just that I've been homeless, not like the homeless people that I see out on the streets today. Because I was always still hustling, you know. But I didn't have a home for like years. And you know, but I would always have a friend or somebody. I always, and if I had a chick, I was, you know, you can stay

5:07anywhere. Yeah. I had another addict's apartment. Just get them high just enough. But you don't want to get them too high to where they kick you out. I mean, it was like, it's kind of sick, dude. I started thinking about it. It's crazy. It's wild. Right. The world I was living in for, you know, years. What just became normal. It's so insane to look back at like, yeah, was that really me doing that shit? Mm-hmm. Like, it's insane. Were you and your brother, did you guys use together? Yeah. Yeah. You guys are really close. Who was older? He was. He was, oh god, eight years older. Oh, wow. Maybe six. OK. See, I get dates mixed up. The drugs will do that too. Yeah. Where did you guys grow up? We grew up. I don't know how familiar you are with Colorado. But in Southwest Colorado, there's a tiny little town

6:07called Del Norte. And it's literally one stoplight, two gas stations, and a grocery store. And that's it. There's like nothing. So yeah, that's where I grew up. So there's nothing to do but drugs. Yeah. You have a lot of money. Are there drugs in the mountains? But if you don't, then you're doing drugs. Wow. So is it just you and him sibling-wise? No, I got two sisters as well. OK. Younger, older. Older. I'm the baby. You're the baby? Wow. Three babies. And an oldest. Oh, yeah. How much older are your sisters? So I got one sister that's two years older, and then another sister that's four years older. OK. And so your brother that passed was the oldest. God, I think my sister's actually six years older. But she's older. But your brother was the oldest of all these years? Yes. He was the oldest. Yeah. And are you and him were the only? Yep.

7:08We were the black sheep of the family. It's honestly insane looking back at how we grew up. Because I talked to my sisters about this all the time. Like, how were you not doing drugs? Right. Like, what were you guys doing? Yeah. Yeah. And like, they were goody-goody. It's insane. Straight A's and went to college and everything. And meanwhile, me and my brother, like, yeah, it's not for us. But I kept it under wraps for a long time. They had no idea. Like, I was the pot head of the family. You know, that was it. But little did they know. I was doing a lot more than that. Yeah. So what was it like when did you start using pot? So let's take you back. Yeah, I'll take you back. All right. I'll paint a picture for you. Little tiny town. And I grew up. I think I was two when my mom and dad got divorced. And then ever since the first memory of my dad,

8:10I remember just my mom being like, yeah, he's an alcoholic piece of shit that beats women. So that was like, OK, alcoholic beats women. OK. And my brother was always gone. He was like, the whole family kind of knew that, oh, he smokes weed. And now he's doing drugs and stuff. But when I turned, I think I was 12 at the time. Now I was 11 when I first smoked weed. And it was with my friend. It wasn't even with my brother. He was just gone doing his own thing. He's eight years older than me, you know? And so I smoked weed for the first time. And I didn't feel it. It's like playing like I'm high. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fun, right, guys? But there was something in me that I just, I wanted to keep doing it. I wanted to figure out what being high was. So I smoked weed again. I actually felt it.

9:11And then by the time I was like 12 and a half, it was every day, I smoked weed every single day. And the first time I drank, that one's hard to track down. I remember being a little kid. I might have been eight, but I also might have been like 11. But I remember sneaking into my uncle's room and just finding a bottle of whiskey and knowing what it was and just slamming as much as I could, you know? And that, like for some reason, I liked that feeling at the time, but it never stuck. I didn't like being drunk. I liked to control. When I was drunk, I couldn't control myself. So weed was my thing for a really long time. Okay, so weed was like the basic little gateway. Gateway. Yep, that's what they told me. That's what they all told me. I'm like, weed's not a gateway. Come on. It's not a gateway. I just, I just like the way I feel when I'm on it. And then 14, I'm like, you guys are doing cocaine.

10:14What is that? Yeah, I don't have any weed, so I'll try that. So yeah, it was 100% a gateway. My kind of question though is like, is it a gateway only if you're an addict? You know, like if you're not an addict and you smoke weed, is it a gateway? And you know, cause like, weeds like the lowest of the drugs, but like before I even, you know, I wanted to do others. I just wanted to do anything that would make me not feel the way I felt. Yeah, yeah, I feel you there. That's it. So I wonder like, you know, is it like, if you're an addict, are you gonna fucking, you're most likely gonna use drink or use, right? Like if you have the gene and you felt the way all the bus felt, eventually you're gonna put some substance in your body and you're gonna love it. And it's always so easy to take the lowest hanging fruit

11:14like most accepted. Yeah, and weeds around, you know, see their weed or alcohol. Callorado, fucking weed, weed's been around. Yeah, you guys were the first. Yeah. And the only one that seems to do it right, because we legalize weed here in California. And guess what? Guess how much in debt we are? Billions. Yeah. And it was supposed to create a surplus like it did in Colorado, like Colorado has a huge surplus. And there's so many government cool things that money goes back to and actually helps people. We spent it, we spend it all. And then what I don't know, maybe it ends up in someone's pockets. I don't know, I don't know. Most likely I'm assuming. So then cocaine up 14 and then what? Like how was high school for you? Oh, high school was the best slash slash worst, right?

12:16Like I was the outcast, I was like the stoner kid, right? Skater never felt a part of anything at all. I so badly wanted to be like a jock. I wanted to know what it felt like to be included, you know? And I'm a tiny, tiny town. There's like 30 kids that I graduated with. 30? Yeah, like 36 I think it was. Yeah, it's insane. So like I was friends with everyone, right? I was the guy that sell weed to people. And but I never really felt a part of. Right. And for me, high school was similar to how a lot of people experience college. I was just partying all the time. It was fun. It was so much fun. But deep down I was hurting, you know? And yeah, I mean, I, let's see, high school, it blows people's minds when I tell them this. I was, I became a crack head at 17.

13:17Like it progressed to crack. And I'm like, yeah, why not smoke crack? Like found out about smoke and coke. And I'm like, oh, this is great. This is great. You guys rock it up and put it in a pipe? Yeah, I'll try that. Yeah. I remember being, I think I was a sophomore. And me and my buddy are carpet surfing. We always made fun of the crack heads that would carpet surf. And then here we were searching for it through the carpet. I remember looking at each other like, holy shit. What are we doing? It's 17. We're folks. Crack head. Yeah, so I did end up stopping doing crack. But I think it was around 17, around the same time that I found opiates, found pills. And that was my drug of choice. I found that. And I was like, I don't get all fucked up like alcohol. I could control myself.

14:19And this feeling, everything goes away. Because with weed, it started making me like a little paranoid. I feel like I was very conscious of like way too, like aware of what am I doing? How am I sitting? Where am I? Yeah, I don't. That weed does that exact same shit to me. And I stopped liking it. And then so I found opiates. And those were my thing. They'd give me a little energy. I felt like I was floating. I'm like, let's feel like this forever. And little did I know I could not do that. I think the first time I actually tried opiates was when I was like 14. 14 was a crazy year. But I didn't really know what they were. It was just like a buddy handing out stuff. But when I was 17 is when I remember really getting addicted to them. This is the stuff. How do I get more of these? And was your brother already full blown in his addiction as well?

15:20I got to know him. Yeah. Yeah. He was the night. I was at a friend's house with him. The night that when I was 14, the night I tried cocaine, he tried heroin. I remember him being like, because the drugs were cool, right? They were a really cool thing. And he was like, yeah, I'm going to try this thing called heroin, like this stuff. And I'm like, what is that? Like isn't that like crazy fucking hardcore shit? He's like, no, you smoking on foil and it tastes like burnt chicken. I'm like, I'm good on all that. But yeah, it is. You must not have the same heroin that we have out here, because it don't smell like tastes like burnt chicken. No, no. You don't know what's in Colorado, but it's not. Nothing like East Coast or West Coast. I don't know. Yeah, we have that black tar heroin out here. That's what it was. Oh, that's what it was. And I don't know. I've said it's nasty. So it smells like a vinegar. Yeah, disgusting, right?

16:22Yeah, disgusting. And the craziest thing is I convinced myself that that tasted good, because eventually it progressed into heroin. And I thought that shit tasted good. I couldn't wait to, it's fucking disgusting. And I often go back to that memory of being like, yeah, this tastes good. And that makes me realize that like, and I could convince my brain of anything. Sure. Yeah, wild right? Yeah. So okay, you're now, you're done with crack at this stage, right? Yeah, yeah. Thanks for keeping us on track. Of course, that's what I'm here for. You're like on it. So let's see, high school was rough, right? Yeah, I tried, tried being a crack at, I didn't like it. Then I found pills and I really liked it. And that progressed right away. It was percassettes. And then it was finding the little blue thirties. And it was all downhill from there.

17:24That's all I was doing. And I remember when they cracked down on all the doctors. I started getting expensive and scarce. And I remember all of my friends turning to heroin. I'm like, what are you guys doing? That's disgusting. That's disgusting. Why don't you just do pills? Come on. Like, you know, think, look at me. How good I am. I just do pills. But yeah, eventually it progressed. And I couldn't find anything. And of course, someone was at my house and had some heroin. I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I'm hurting. I'm fucking hurting bad. So I switched to heroin. Damn. How are you? Oh, man. Oh, this is where the story gets good. OK. OK. So let's back up a little bit. My wife's going to kill me if I get these dates wrong. I was 21 when I was still doing pills.

18:26And then I met my wife the summer of 2016. And that's a whole other story, guys. All right. So I met my wife. She's from Ukraine. And we met in a smaller town than Del Nort, like 15 minutes away. And we hit it off for the summer. And like, she has no idea. She's from Ukraine. She sees me and she's like, ooh, a handsome boy. A American boy. Yeah, that's what it was. And I thought like she's looking at me like, ooh, a green card. And you know what I'm like? She's going to kick me out for that one. No, we met and we knew it was for the summer because she was traveling just for the summer. And it was like awesome, cool little summer fling. And I was deep in my pill addiction at that time. Just drinking and pills, drinking and pills. And so she had to go back to Ukraine for her visa.

19:30And we decided to stay together in a long distance relationship. And at the time, you know, I'm deep in my addiction. So I'm like, I don't know. Yeah, let's do this. And so she went back to Ukraine. And it was nine months before we saw each other again. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And we stayed together. And she tried to get a tourist visa, got denied. And it's like, all right, well, what are we going to do? We got to figure something out. Like obviously, I'm not going to Ukraine because I just can't. You know, I was deep in my addiction. I couldn't go anywhere else. So we like loosely just agreed upon a fiance visa. Like, well, there's this thing called fiance visa. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I want to marry you anyways. So let's do it. And yeah, we did the fiance visa. I always tell everyone, you know that show 90 day fiance? Yeah, that was, I was supposed to be on there, but I was addicted to drugs so they didn't accept me.

20:32I mean, that's basically what it was. They she came over. We had 90 days to get married. Wow. The day she landed, we got married. Wow. Now, back up just a little bit in that nine months when she was gone is when I made the switch to heroin. So she has no idea that you're like full blown. No, no idea. No idea. And she's thinking. That's scary. She's thinking weed is a drug. She thought that weed was a drug at that time. And she moved across the world to marry this guy that she knew for three months. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Meanwhile, you're like in a full blown just. And I mean, keep in mind the whole time I'm thinking like, I'm already going through sick withdraws at this time. Like doing, I don't know how many milligrams a day, but it would take so much to get me to feel normal. And then I would have to get high. So I have to do more. And the whole time I'm like, I got to quit. I got to quit. I can't fucking keep going like this.

21:33My body is just fucking sucks. So my whole thing is like this girl's going to save me. I'm going to quit for her, right? And so while she was gone, instead of quitting, I switched to heroin. And then when I remember going to pick her up from the airport being like, all right, this is the last one. Telling my brother all the dealers, all my friends, like, this is it guys. This is it. This is last raw. Got high as fuck. Had Suboxone's on me, went and picked her up at the airport. Oh my gosh. And I had to drive like three and a half hours to go pick her up and then drove back to where I was living, which was just another tiny little town. Alamosa, Colorado. Shout out Alamosa. Not a great place. But so we drove back and I'm thinking like, all right, this is it. I'm slowly taking Suboxone and trying to come down.

22:34Fuck now. The minute I get back, I'm right back to the dealers. Right, like, oh yeah, remember I said, cut me out. That was a joke. Like no. Like I'll quit tomorrow. I'll quit tomorrow tomorrow. Tomorrow. That went on for three years. And does she have any idea at this point? What's going on? You're able to mask it? So at the time, my brother was living with us and she moved in with us. So it was me and my brother living together. She moved in and we got married. Boom. Courthouse right away married. And so I was hiding it, but I was getting way too comfortable. And I was still doing pills and heroin, but then she caught me red-handed one day. She's like, what the fuck? What were you doing in the car over there with that straw? And like, came and caught me red-handed. So what do I do? What do I have to do best? We lie our way out of everything. Right? So I lied. I'm like, oh, this is, I've got something to tell you.

23:37I've made it real serious. This is, these are pills. And I have a pill addiction and I'll quit for you. And I quit pills. I quit pills for her. I never said anything about heroin. And I didn't quit heroin. So in my addict brain, I'm thinking, I'm being honest. I'm being honest. I told her the truth that these were pills. I told her the truth that I had a pill addiction. So I'm just justifying it the whole time. And she agrees to stay, right? She's like, oh, well, this is horrible. Like, oh, you need to quit. And that's when she cracked down, right? She's, I'm so sorry for this. She thought she cracked down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because she started tracking stuff. And when you get married to someone from overseas and do a fiance visa, you right away have to have a bank account together, everything. So there's, it's hard to hide stuff.

24:38And so she was tracking bank accounts. She was tracking everything, every penny. But I'm an addict. I'm going to find a way. So for three years, I lied to her. And I was doing heroin behind her back. She had no idea. She thought that I had quit pills. And she thought, and like, any time I would, because she had had multiple times, she caught me with something and I'm like, oh, this is that foil. That was hash. Like, you know, weed, like just manipulating is fuck gaslighting. Yeah. Weed, well, weed, you can make this stuff called hash. And you smoke it on a foil. Oh, fucking horrible. Three years. She moved across the country. Yeah, the one that you just met. That was crazy. But she had no idea. Like, you saw you were able to kind of hold together for her not to see just the crazy aftermath of it, like nodding out or anything like that. Entire from work.

25:38I just worked so hard because I work in construction, right? I'm an iron worker. Like, I work so hard. And she saw that. And she knew that I worked so hard. But little did she know I wasn't even at work that day. I was at the dealers. Working so hard to get high. Yeah. So. And have you had kids at this point yet? OK. You was going to work seven days a week, man. They aren't paying you. Oh, those bastards. I'll talk to them. Right, right. Damn, that's so exhausting. So you got that right. It was so fucking exhausting. And I think that was also exhilarating, right? Like I'm a fucking spot living in a double building. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. FBIA agents. Yeah. CIA, bro. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll fuck with the FBI. Yeah. This is a feds. CIA has no laws, no rules. And that's so long, three years, damn.

26:39I remember watching, what was that show? Shameless. Oh, that's a good show. I remember watching it, specifically burned into my memory. I don't remember any episode except for when Fiona goes to marry this guy that she barely knew and didn't know that he was a heronatic. And on their wedding night, found out that he was a heronatic. And she's watching this with me. And I'm like, oh my god, that crazy paranoid as hell. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so I tried her getting me sober. I tried everything to get me sober because at the time I still didn't want to. Every day, I'm like, all right, today's the last day. Time to do all that I can. But I, so we lived in Alamosa. And in that three years, we moved across Colorado from Southwest Colorado up to North Colorado. And we lived in Fort Collins. And she wanted to go to finish, finish school because she was going to college.

27:42And she left that for me. And I'm like, oh, well, CSU has a great college. Like, let's, Fort Collins has a great college. You can go to CSU. So she enrolled and got accepted and all that stuff. And did all this stuff. Meanwhile, all I'm worried about is getting high. So we move. I'm like, all right, tell my brother to look. I'm done. This is it. Like I'm moving. This is going to be it, right? This is what I need. I need to just get away. So I tried the geographical. It was four and a half hours away. The first week I was there. So I started a job there. And I was always able to hold the job down, just barely by the skin of my teeth. So I started working there. And like the first week, take a day off. Oh, I got it. I still got to move stuff. Drove all the way back to. Wow. Picked up. Drove all the way back up. And she had no idea. She thought I was at work.

28:44And this went on for, I don't know, maybe that was like in the middle. So it went on for maybe a year and a half of line driving. And I calculated it all. I'm like, OK, this takes me. If I speed and go this route, I can get there and back in seven hours. And that's about the time that like she's going to be calling me because I get off of work at this time. And the fucking insanity. Well, happens if you get to like, you know, there's times, at least for me, I get to the dope man and he wasn't home or, oh, I would find a way. Or those were the times that I worked very late and my phone had died. Yeah. Because I would find a way. Oh, my God. There were times where like I drive all the way there and dope man doesn't have any. So I got a scrounge around and go find someone. During that old time, you didn't find a new connect up in the Fort Collins. I'm trying to quit. I don't want to find anyone that close. It's like who raised you, right? Yeah. There was also fear in me of like, if I find someone this close, she's going to find

29:47out. She'll find out some way. She'll find out. So no, I, well, I found, this was a long three years. So my brother was in and out of jail at the times and he ended up just about, I don't know, maybe two hours, hour and a half south of where I was living. He ended up on the streets in Colorado Springs and he found all the dealers that I needed. So then instead of driving all the way back to Alamosa or Del Norton, then I could drive down to him. So we got so bad where I was missing two days of work a week and sometimes I'd be able to like, all right, I'm picking up now. I got to make it last all of next week and like, I would do crazy shit. You know what the big book, how they're like talking about alcohol, exciting alcohol on that. I would get a bag of heroin and I would break it into 20s for myself and tape it around the house, hide it in my tools so that I would like, hopefully forget, but then kind

30:52to remember. And I became full blown tweaker when I was hurting. I'd clean my car for an hour and a half. She's like, what the fuck are you doing out there cleaning the car? Oh, God, I'm just, I'm cleaning it. Oh, my God. It's insane. And still she has no clue. No clue. The crazy thing is though, I got to share this with you guys because women's intuition, like everyone's got intuition, but women's intuition, especially my wife's like, one day she tells me, I feel like you're lying to me, but you're so deep in the lie that you feel like there's no way out and you can't tell me the truth. You can hit the nail on the head. I'm like, no, no, of course not. Oh, no, what are you talking about? Because she would catch me in lies all the time. What are you doing in Colorado Springs? You're supposed to do it at work. It got to the point where she was tracking my phone 24-7. So I turned my phone off. There was one time I forgot to turn my phone off.

31:53Answer the phone. I see it ringing. I'm like, oh, fuck, fuck, what? Okay, I got to lie my way out. Answer it and she's already screaming at me so I'm like, drop it. Break the phone. Oh, my gosh. So home and I'm like, I tried to answer it and I dropped it and it broke. You were in Springs. Why were you in Springs? No, I wasn't. I don't know what was wrong with the technology, but it's just gaslighting the fuck. Yeah. It was three years of that. She endured. And I'll bring you to the point that, I don't know what it was. It was just an average day of lying, manipulating. I'd gotten to so bad, so bad at that point. But I drove down to Springs, met up with my brother and I went to go pick up, right? And my excuse to her, she thinks that I'm at a funeral because someone I was working with fell off the iron and died. This is a story you meet up?

32:55No. This actually happened. Okay, so it was perfect cover. Instead of going to his funeral, I went to Springs. So she caught me red handed again. And at that point, things had gotten so bad. She had no idea it was heroin, but she knew I was lying out my fucking ass. And I realized like, she's going to fucking leave me. Like, what's the point of lying anymore? I at least owe her the truth. So I told my brother, like, all right. Again, out of all the times, but I told him like, this is it. I'm actually going to tell, I'm going to tell in a stage of the truth. And what do you have? I don't know, like your brother said. Don't do it. No, no, he was, my brother was fucking his biggest heart, dude. He was always like, all right, all right. Good, like you go take care of yourself. Like that's good. It's good. But yeah, I don't know what it was. I drove home that day.

33:58And when, so she caught me in the lie, we fight over the phone, hang up, and I'm like, whatever. Then I make that decision and I just got kind of sick and tired of it. I got tired of living the double life. I was thinking, either she's going to stay and I'll really try to get sober. Or she's going to leave and I get to do what I want. So we'll see. And I told her over the phone, like, hey, I got something serious to tell you. And when I get home, I'm probably going to try and lie my way out of it. So don't let me. And she's like, well, okay. And I've, so I get, I get home. And I got, I remember the look on her face. It just pure awe, like, what the fuck? Told her so I got something to tell you. The reason why I've been lying for all these years is I'm a heroin addict. And that's been behind everything.

34:58All of the lies and all of this, all of our fights, everything. It's because I'm a heroin addict. She's disbelief. And meanwhile, I'm like smirking because it's like just this huge weight lifted off my shoulders. I finally told someone that mattered. My family, my sisters had no idea. No one had any idea that I was on heroin, anyone that like mattered in my life. You know? So I told her, and I told her that I'll try and get sober. And she agreed to stay. Wow. Damn. So it was nothing really specific the day that you decided to go ahead and out yourself. It just was. It's tired of being sick and tired. I mean, you were doing the most, sir. Yeah. Damn. That is like a full time job, especially. I know. It's trying to like keep the person, right? And like, I was like, I'm like tired.

36:00I could never like keep the person because like when they confront me with the lies, you know, the I just be like, you know, I'm fuck off. You don't believe me, fuck you. That's how I was too. I was just like, I couldn't. It's really, really mean. Me too. Oh, I was the sweetest, the sweetest. Oh, I was mean because I got to, I got to like, I can't. Keep making up these stories. So like, whatever, if you don't believe me, bye. Bye. Fuck. But you think I'm cheating on you? I am. I mean, I did. I said that to Donna one time because she was just like accusing me and it wasn't. It was drugs. It was cheating on her with drugs. And she thought I had another woman over and I was just like, fine, I do. Just like, yeah. I really feel bad for this shit that put her through snoring. Marley, man, it's crazy, crazy. What we put people through. Yeah. Yeah. So. People lined up to be with us too though. I'm just saying. They didn't sign up for that version of me.

37:03I was sober when she met me. She had no idea what she said. I mean, yours is especially because you literally like, she's in another country and you're in a full blown like, what the heck? She had no way out. What is she supposed to do? She knows no one in the country. She has no family here like. I mean, the fact that she stayed with you too is just like, did she? What did she say to you though? I'm really curious as to what she said to you. You said she was like shocked, but what did she think was going on with all these lies? Were you cheating her? Women? Yeah. I think she thought it was. I mean, I bet you she, like when you said heroin, I bet she was like few. Yeah, I think I know. As horrible as that. She was nervous. I'm saying. She's like, okay, I could fix better than a, better than a, what better than my cook in this dude out like just a hussey. Right. Yeah, that's what she thought. She thought like, oh, I can fix you. I can fix this.

38:03I can work with this because it's like, especially if you're kind of like a normal and don't really know like the severity of the disease, you think like, okay, we can work through this. Another woman. That's tough. Oh, that was a deal breaker. Like, yeah, like, she's, she'd been cheated on a lot. So if it was another woman gone, but heroin, no problem. Yeah. I got this shit. What, what nationality are you? Every side's being a mud American. Everything. So like, I did the 23 and me. Yeah. Spitting a cup and sent it to him and they told me I'm Native American, Spanish, everything. Oh, Middle Eastern. Got some Middle Eastern in me. Yeah, my grandma was from, on my mom's side was from Syria. Somewhere around Syria. Okay. Yeah. So I'm a little bit out everything. So you tell her and then what happens?

39:04So. So this is your holiday around this time? You're asking hard questions now. I know. I'm sorry. How many years ago was it? How long have you been sober? Or did you, you're like 16? I was like 16, right? Wait, did you stay sober right after? So six years off of heroin. Six years off heroin. So it's 2020. Yeah, I was right in COVID. I was 25. I don't know. Does someone help me? Yeah. Yeah. But, all right. So I was, I told her and she was just in shock and kind of like, I, she didn't really know what to say. And then, yeah, she's like, all right, I'll stay. I'll stay. And I agreed to get sober and I was like completely willing to do whatever the fuck it took. Like, you tell me what to do? I'm doing it. And she, all right, we're going to marriage counseling.

40:05We're going to tell your sisters and you're going to go, so we've got marriage counseling and tell the family. We looked at rehabs, started looking at rehabs. And I'm like, well, work. What about work? Like, I can't go to rehab. Are you kidding? Work. But, let's see. She, I agreed to get sober. She agreed to stay. I had Suboxone that I bought off the streets. So I was taking that for a week. And then when I stopped taking that, because I was like, all right, I just got to be honest. And everything will be okay. So I realized that I was getting high off of the Suboxone. And I told her and I quit taking it. And I remember driving to work that morning and I got to the parking lot and my body was just like, nope. Turned around, started driving south towards Colorado Springs to meet up with my brother. And she's still tracking my phone like big time at this point. So she calls, what are you doing?

41:07And I'm like, well, if I'm being honest, like in my head, all right, honestly. I can't do this. I'm going to go get high. She's like, no, no, the fuck you're not. Like, no, turn around right now. I'm like, no, I can't. I can't. And my head, I'm thinking, if I just be honest, it'll be okay. She'll let me get high. Like just one last time, just one last time. And while we were on the phone, she had a crazy panic attack to where she was hyperventilating. She wasn't responding to me on the phone. So I freaked out, drove north to Fort Collins to go meet up with her. And like I hung up on the phone with her, called 911. And told them our address. And by the time I got there, everything was okay. It was just a crazy panic attack. But by the time I got there, she had her bags packed. She was like, peace. I can't do this. I can't do this. I'm done. So she left. And she had called one of my friends who was, who wasn't sober, but he was like, you're just a really close friend. And he didn't know much about addiction either. So he's thinking like, I'm going to beat your fucking ass if you leave this house and

42:08go get high. You're okay. I'll outweigh him. That's what I did. We sat there, had deep conversations, talked all day. But in my mind, I was already made up. I waited till like 1 a.m. He had to leave, right? He had worked the next day. And I drove down a metable with my brother. Got high. One last time. And after that, I was like, fuck what the fuck is going on? Like I really wanted to get sober. I really wanted it this time. Like what's going on? So I drove back up to Fort Collins. I call her. And she answers. And she had told my sisters and my oldest sister who, she's always been like a caretaker. She's been the one that's like taking care of the family. She called me up and she's like, hey, I booked you a flight. You're coming to my house now. Like what? Because I didn't want to go to rehab. They weren't going to force me into rehab.

43:09Like that was way too serious for me, right? I'm not that bad. So I agreed. I flew out to Washington and slept it out on my sister's couch for three weeks. Just sweated out. And this is about the time when I realized that I'm actually an alcoholic too. Because there's no difference. Why were you drinking? Yeah. Well, you were detoxing. So yeah. Still manipulating. Manipulative as fuck at this point. I live with her and she doesn't know much about addiction. I shouldn't know anything. So she's like, yeah, like weaves legal in Washington. Like I never really liked weed because it gave me a conscience. Yeah. I don't fuck around with the bad shit that I didn't know. But drinking. I never really liked drinking. And looking back, I realized it's because my dad was an alcoholic.

44:12I was like, I never want to fucking be like that. So I'm just going to do the drugs. But yeah, when I was staying with her, I remember us going to the liquor store and she's like, yeah, you know, you can get some beer and I loved sour beer. Because I never really liked getting drunk. Because I didn't like losing control. I'm a control freak. And I remember thinking like, all right, which beer can I get? That's the strongest so that I could drink at the fastest and only have one and it won't raise red flags with her or anyone else. And all of this is going on in my head. And I don't think it's a problem. So that's what I did. I just like, I'd find the right beer and I would drink and everything was fine. But like I said before, drinking was never a problem for me so much. And like, I fucking hated drinking. So I'd lose control. I'd like black out.

45:12I want to remember how I feel, you know? So that never really progressed. And yeah, that was six years ago. I have not touched heroin since. And for me, I personally hold on to every single sobriety date because I've learned something throughout each of them. And like I know some people are like, oh, fuck, I relapsed. I lost all that time. I lost any fucking. You didn't lose any time. You were doing something right. So you can hold on to something from there. Right? Like, yeah, figure out why you relapsed, but it's not everything. And you learned so much. Right? Like I did. I learned a lot. But I still had so much to learn. So I tried, before I relapsed, I tried AA for like a couple of weeks, I think. And I found a sponsor. And I remember we were going to marriage counseling and the counselors like, you should try NA.

46:14And I'm like, what's that? Oh, it's this. And I'm like, well, maybe I should try AA because if I go to NA, I'm just going to find another drug dealer. Like, I'm fucking good at manipulating. I'll find the person who's just fresh, just like me. And like, so I tried AA. And I found someone that like talked about drugs. I'm like, all right, you're my sponsor. And I tried it for like a, I think a year. It was a year that I was drinking and going to AA. Oh my God. Yeah. But I'm like, love the normie. I'm going to normie drinking, right? Like, I don't go and get all fucked up. I'm like, never get in the gym. Where you getting chips? Oh, yeah. Yeah. For your heroin? Yeah. Cause I'm here for heroin. I remember that they would like one of them found out and I wasn't trying to hide it because I told them all like, I would always say I'm an addict. I would always say like, oh, I'm here for heroin. And like one of them found out and I was going to business meetings and shit like, oh yeah.

47:15Yeah. And one of them found out and like, should he be here? Cause he's still drinking. Right. Like is he, and questioned it and I'm like, fuck that bitch. What the fuck is she talking about? Like, no. Like, yeah. So that went on for about a year until I had like a bunch of people questioning it. I'm like, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not an alcoholic. I didn't hit any bottom with alcohol. So fucking blind. So blind. And it took me a while to realize I think I switched sponsors like three times because they were the problem, right? And then I found one that was like, I just don't drink and see how that's going. How that works. And I'm like, all right, all right. I just won't drink. That's the fucking life hit me. Hard. Like man, okay. I guess, yeah, I guess drinking was doing something for me. It was because I would get to, I got to step four while drinking and then couldn't, couldn't get past it.

48:15Then got to step three. Couldn't get past it. And then I had my third sponsor. He didn't even take me to step one. He's like, maybe you're not an alcoholic. Oh, that pissed me off. Well, it's all wordplay, dude. It's all whatever. Like, just, it's not about the substance, but I had no idea what any of that meant. And it took me a while to realize that like any substance, any mind altering substance in me, it's, it's, I'm using it as a solution, whether it looks normal or not. This episode is brought to you by Wolfpack Bags. This gear is meant for anybody gym lifestyle to anybody that's on the move. I mean, I like to say that us here and everybody that tunes in, we're not average, we're always a wolf. They have all the goods that you need, especially for anybody that is looking for a bag to carry their meal prep, a lunchpale, anything like that. They have you covered. So once again, go to wolfpack.com, use the code HOPAHOLICS, save 10% and join the pack. Right. I'm still using it as a solution.

49:16So I never hit a bottom with alcohol. I just quit. Yeah. The last drink was one drink. I was at a wedding and I knew I shouldn't be drinking. I'd already been going to AA for a long time and we were at the wedding and I knew I had to drive home and, you know, my wife at this time. She still doesn't know anything about, about addiction, nothing. And she's like, yeah, I mean, you can have one drink. Yeah. I have one. I had one drink and I was fucking obsessed with it in my head. Was that too much? Is that, when can I have more? Can I have more? I mean, what? Am I good? Yeah, am I right? Okay. If I just, you know, every other weekend or special occasion, just obsessed with when can I drink and when can't I drink? And how do I manage it? And like, dude, that right there, that right there is fucking money. That is not normal thinking. Like that right there hits the nail on the head when it comes to like, if you are having

50:19to have these thoughts around a drink, I would say you might have a problem. Yeah. I'd be the asshole. Be like, yeah, you do have a fucking problem. First. Because someone needed that. That's insane. That is insane. Yeah. Oh my God. I'm like, dying because I remember so many times of having a drink and being like, I'm good, right? I'm good. I'm good. Let me just like, wait. Wait, like, I'm going to move. I don't know. You know, just like, the rational thinking of just knowing. No normal person. Fuck no. Things about alcohol like that. No. I have a drink. I'm like, okay, cool. They don't think about the next one. No. They don't think about the last one. Or like, maybe I'll just do it on special occasions or maybe just on weddings or maybe I'm just going to drink like three times a year or maybe on like a Friday night. All this thinking is in like 20 to 30 minutes. Oh, right. Or maybe even like five minutes of like, okay, I got to plan out the next 10 years of my life when I can drink, when I can't drink. Yeah. Totally. So I quit drinking. And after that, I was about another year that I actually started taking clean chips.

51:28And right around a year, I relapsed and did coke at work. And it was just one little bump. I was pissed that I fucking did it. I don't know why I did it because it was there. Yeah. And I had no defense against it. I was like, yeah, you're going to twist my arm, I guess. But immediately after that, I regretted it and told my sponsor, told my wife, actually, no, not immediately. Right. I waited like four days. So, you know, like, hey, remember that one day, so actually I relapsed. What? It was just coke. Yeah. So that was my last relapse. And that was in January. It'll be four years. Okay. Yeah.

52:28And since then, I feel like I've skipped so much. Yeah. Anyways. Well, win, win. Win, win. Win, win. Win. During that time, when did your brother pass? Ah, yes. Okay. So, it was my first, it was after that relapse. He was still living on the streets. And I was about, got the first year of this last sobriety has been the fucking hardest, the hardest. So I was six months sober. I got to step seven with an NA sponsor. And we rushed through it because I knew that I was going to move. So my wife had finished college and she was going to start a job. And my job was already, you know, like an hour south. So we decided we're going to move closer to Denver.

53:31And I, everything on the outside was perfect. You know, I was sober. Six months sober, actually sober. I was doing the steps. And I had a community and everything was good, but then we moved. And we bought a house. That was fucking amazing. We bought a house. But we lost our community. I lost everyone that I knew in sobriety. And I stayed in touch with them, but it's different. It's so different. And I was about six months sober. In this new house, I was trying to go to new meetings, trying to get plugged back in, but it feels so fucking weird. When you're like, all right, all right. So I'm at like step seven. And I already got some time. But now I like need to reintroduce myself. I don't fucking know. I'm like, I'm going to be like, yeah, I'm like, I want to put in the work anymore. You know, willingness slipped away. I didn't want to put in the work. Yeah, I won. So I was still on the fence of like, I've always battled with M.I. and

54:36alcohol, like, am I not? Am I not? I'm not. And yeah, six months sober. This is when my brother died. I remember that day. Fuck, I remember that day like it was yesterday. I was on my dream job getting to build a high rise in downtown Denver. Wow. And like dream position. I'm a connector. I'm putting in the beams. I'm walking on the iron. Twenty floors up. I was on the 20th floor standing on the iron. And I got a call. I got a bunch of calls. And I remember I answered one call because there's my mom. She knows I might work. She never calls. And I answer it and the scream. I will remember that scream forever. He's gone.

55:36Screaming at the top of her lungs. Crying screaming. He's gone. Julian's gone. Julian's dead. He's gone. He's gone. Julian's dead. That's all she could say. I, uh, wife was also calling me. And I had to tell her like, I'm at work. I'll call you right back. I just hit my knees. I was up on a beam. You know, 20 floors up. It's fucking dropped. Ball in my eyes out. Part of my, uh, my connecting partner that was up there with me is like, what's going on? What's going on? My brother just fucking died. My brother just fucking died. And, uh, you know, he gives me a hug. We come down off the iron and just fucking lost. Because here I am. My dream job with this dream girl living in a house now.

56:39My brother was homeless on the streets and he fucking died. One of the hardest moments of my life. And it still is. Um. After that, um, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to back up a little bit because the acceptance of this started long before it ever, before he ever died. Because once I got sober, I would try so fucking hard to get him sober. Try so fucking hard. But I was so fresh in recovery and I knew, I knew. No one can force you into recovering. So every time he would call, I tell him, are you ready yet? Because as soon as you're ready, I will do everything I can to help you.

57:41And one day, I think it was actually the last time we talked. He told me, you know, Jesse, I don't think I'll ever be ready. It's fucking heartbreaking. But this disease, sometimes it takes people away from us. And they make the ultimate sacrifice to remind us where this disease will take us. He never, never did get sober. Never could. That was one of the hardest moments of my life and doesn't end there. Because that was in June that I lost my brother. What year? 2023. And a month after that.

58:46Now, so that was June 14th. And I'm on this high rise building connecting. And on July 1st, I was working. It was a Saturday morning. First piece of the day, we're putting in this steel tube that weighs probably like 800 pounds. And put my hands where I shouldn't have. And the tube dropped, suddenly. And cut my fingertips off. I saw those pictures. It's a gnarly. Gnarly. Yeah, that's your poster. Yeah, Emily was talking about it. But I haven't seen it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's. Wait, let me see. Your fingers look pretty good. Damn good for getting chopped off. Yeah, doctors are really good. Wait, did they have the cell back on? So they kind of did. I chopped them off.

59:47They look definitely different. Yeah, you could see. Like they're shorter. Yeah, they're little nubs. But. Yeah. So I went to the hospital. Oh, god, this is a funny story. Heroin addict, right? I go to the hospital. And I'm like, fucking honesty is everything with me. I lied for so long. I have to fucking be honest. Everyone knows that I was a heroin addict. I put that shit right fucking here. Heroin addict, hey, that was me. That was me. So we go to the hospital. And, you know, I'm like, numb this fucking, you got to numb it. You got to numb it. And they're taking their time. They're like, yeah, okay. Well, we can get you some pain meds in the meantime. I'm like, no, I'm a fucking heroin addict. Like adrenaline rushing through me. I'm fucking in pain. And I'm like, no, I'm a heroin addict. You can't give me that. She's like, yeah, but you, like you cut your fingertips off. Are you sure? I'm like, yeah, all I'm thinking about is getting high when you tell me pills. Like, don't give me that. She's like, okay, well, it'll be a while.

1:00:48The surgeon has to look at you before we can numb it. Are you fucking kidding me? So I'm just in there, like just take it, just take it, just take it, rock him back and forth, rock him back. And like, I calm down. I'm like, okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. And then the doctor comes in. He's like, yeah, let's see what's going on. And I have a video of this. I'll have to show you guys. But he starts unwrapping it. And I'm just like, yeah, he's like, what, what machine was it? Wasn't a machine, it was still tube. So you unwraps it and then you can see blood squirting out. And I can feel everything. I'm like, oh, fuck. And blood like, gosh, it's out a little. It's like, oh, don't want to do that. And he grabs a paper towel and just wraps over and squeezes. I'm like, you're my screaming. And the nurse is in there. And I'm like, get me the drugs. Get me the drugs now. Get me the drugs now. She's like, okay, okay, okay. She leaves, comes back by that time the pain went away enough for me to be like,

1:01:50they're mine. Yeah, actually, no, no, don't give me the drugs. Yeah, it was that nurse went in and out of that room three times. Three times. I was like, get me the drugs. Okay, don't give me the drugs. But bring me something that like, just don't tell me what it is. Maybe that'll work. And then she came back in and I'm like, what have you got in there? She's like, you know, I have to tell you right. It's if I could in. I'm like, oh, if I could in. Even though I'm in pain, I'm thinking about getting hired. So I'm like, no, you can't give me that. Wow. Yeah. I feel like it's got to be harder to for opi-edatics. Alcoholics I really feel bad for because like, they've got to walk into grocery stores and alcohols everywhere, right? I'm not an opi-ed addict. So like, I'll take a shot of whatever you got if I need it. If I need it. If I need it though.

1:02:50If I doctor. If I doctor. Yeah. Like, I mean, I had knee surgery and they just shoved some fentanyl. It was the only time I ever done fentanyl in my veins. It's not pharmaceutical fentanyl. It's, I mean, it's different than any other opi-ed I've ever done because like, it's the only opi-ed that didn't make me throw up and it didn't make me, it didn't make me tired. And that's the thing with opi-ed for me. Like, you know how you say it? Energizes you? Bro, I'm fucking out. Yeah. Zonged. Right after I throw up. One vikadin. Fucking. And then I'm like. I'm allergic to that. One vikadin. I had a friend that was allergic to percuss at and it saved his life because we were all doing it and he tried so hard to do it. I tried. I tried so hard with vikadin and I just. I tried to become a heroin addict, man. I fucked it up. I fucked up my veins and just, and I was like, why? Why does it make me think? You got to get past that and then it's like, that's what everybody would say. But like for me, it was like, to get past that, I was sleeping.

1:03:52Yeah. Like, and I wanted to be awake. Yeah. I do. You know, because I was also like, like, I'm a method. I like, I go up. Me too. I'm an upper. Down. I need something to be up for Ashman. It's so crazy. I don't know. I'm like, anything to go with. Which is like so nuts because in actual. Well, she's already visited. Yeah. That's what I'm curious about. So that's what I'm curious about. Because like for me, I'm already like, I'm pretty hyper guy. I like, you know, so for me, I wanted the opposite. I wanted something to crash. I just wanted to go a little bit higher. Me too. And I only run pretty high. So it's interesting. Is Emily going to pull it up? Are you going to pull it up, Emily? Oh, yeah. I want her to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was bad. You were, you stayed sober through your brother's death. I did. Wow. I did. And through cutting my fingers off. This is the point where it was, I had nobody.

1:04:52I had people, but I didn't want to reach out. And then I had like no one. Oh, hold on. Side tangent. No quick. Well, she's looking that up. Yeah. You were talking about doctors giving you fat. And all I got a funny story for you guys. So my wife, when she got what was it? One of her surgeries, or maybe it was, no, it was when she was getting birth. They gave her fentanyl. And they gave her the fentanyl. And she fucking melted into the bed and was like, oh my god. I don't like this. Wow, actually, I do like this. So is this what you felt that whole time on your own? I'm like, now you get it. I get it. You just high fuck. Yeah. The fentanyl was pretty good. I didn't even know I was fucking high until four hours later when I realized I hadn't stopped talking. I was just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:05:53Yeah. Didn't feel any of the fucking knee surgery? Nothing. Nothing. You feel nothing at all. Nothing bothers you. Yeah. I'm horrible. I remember from a lot of your shares, you talked about depression. Is this where you felt, is this when it was really, really, really rough for you after and you were alone? Because I've heard you shared it. You've shared it. Yeah. That's what I talk about a lot is having no solution at all. Alcoholics call it dry drunk. We, everyone's got a certain word for it. But for me, it's just having no solution to the actual problem and the problem is me. And I'd never worked on me, not thoroughly, not really. I thought honesty was what I was all about, but I'd never been honest with myself. Yeah. So yeah, at this time, I had no one because I didn't have my recovery circle.

1:06:56And it's there. It's there. It's there. I had a log in before, you know, viewers. Viewer discretion advised. Am I going to be so? Yeah. No, I guess which one is I don't have to do this. Oh, I got the wrong. I got the wrong. I got the wrong hair. You can have it. Oh, OK. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, my. And that's what it looked like healing. That's what I dealt with in early sobriety. I thought my fingers were going to fall along. What's crazy about that is like, dang, what's crazy about it is that you took videos of it as a whole fucking healing. That's what's crazy. Who does that? How many? Oh, my gosh. How many views do you have on that, bad boy? I don't know. That one's gotten a lot. It's gotten taken down a few times.

1:07:57I bet that's crazy. What's nuts though is that's 4.4 K, 4.4.5. I'm thinking about just life in general, meaning like brushing your teeth, washing your face. Oh, everything's left hand. Everything's left hand. Oh, gosh. Yeah. No, the hardest thing to do because I had surgery on my right shoulder. And sorry to be grounded, but it's really hard to poop. It's really hard to wipe your butt. It's left hand if you've never done that before. Yeah. If you're used to leaning forward like this. And you guys had like watching Dr. Buts. Try it tonight. Oh, my God, it's horrible. Yeah. Teddy sometimes has a dirty butt. My dog. I got to go mad at him because I got it. Yeah, I got it. Yes, I do. It's. See, wiping it on the carpet? He's white and furry. You know, he says. Oh, you can see it.

1:08:57Yeah, sometimes I have to cut his fur off because he has little like a single bear. Single bear. He gets so pissed. And then he comes and tries to sit next. We get out of here. Get out of here. This is it. So, so no solution. Well, like so basically out another rock bottom, right? In your sobriety. Yeah. And like what turn what turn the corner for you? So let's see, I lost my fingertips and it was it was everything was hitting me at once, right? Like I lost my brother didn't even get the chance to grieve for him because I lost my fingertips. And I also lost my community. And I just moved into a house and like it's fucking empty, right? Meanwhile my son, he was, oh God, my wife's gonna really kick my ass.

1:09:58It's a year, year and a half. He was having a night terrors at the time. So his wife's having to take care of me and take care of him. We like, we became so distant from each other. So I didn't even have my wife. And I was so fucking depressed. Everything on the outside looked great. I had cars. No, I had two cars. I had house. I had everything. Everything. The wife, white picket fence. I wanted to fucking kill myself. All right. So I remember what it was that changed my mind that made me realize like, oh fuck, what am I doing? I was just miserable as fuck. I felt like I was such a burden. And I wanted to, I wanted to off myself, right? I wanted to unalive myself. And I thought about it and I thought about the reality of doing it. And I was like, I can never do that to my family.

1:11:00I can never do that to my son. I can't do that to my wife. Oh, well maybe I'll just take them with me. And when I heard my brain have that thought scared the shit out of me. It's a whole nother bottom. So I was six months over at the time, six, seven months over. When I had that thought crossed through my mind, I realized that I need to fucking get help. I need to get help. I started going to therapy. I started going back to AA and I found my people. Because that thought made me realize that if I don't have any kind of solution, then was void. Yeah. Like for me, drinking, using all of it was off the table. And this is why I always tell people that like, willpower does not work. Willpower will not fucking work for anything. Willpower made me want to put a bullet in my mouth.

1:12:00Because I could quit drinking. No fucking problem. I could will my way through that. I quit heroin. I did, you know, I could stay away from drugs now called at this point. But if I have no solution, I'm in a bad fucking place. And that's why I have to rely on willingness over willpower because that gave me the willingness to go back. Yeah, I will jump back in. It's one, it's part of the how of the program. People always forget, right? Honestly, open mind and listen, willingness. With these, we are well on our way. That's narcotics and anonymous literature, verbatim. But you know, everything we got from narcotics and anonymous comes from alcoholics and anonymous. We just wrote it in like 19, whatever it was in English regular, you know, English that we speak. Yeah, sorry, I read the big book. I'm like, what the fuck? I never heard that word before. I'll be reading through with with sponsors and like, that word, we look it up, man.

1:13:03Yeah, my sponsor, we used to make me look up all the words in the alcoholics and anonymous book. And we did it in our packets. Like, my sponsorship line does packets for like, sub one through three. And there's like, in the packets, it's actually like the word with definition. So you feel like you're literally back in like second grade, you know, the packet. It's like, well, what? You want me to like, got these five word definition? Have you guys seen that they remade the big book for plain English or like, today's English? They have? Yeah, it was a big controversy for a long time. Like, I remember hearing about it in meetings, like in business meetings, you know, and there, some of the old times were pissed. Fucking pissed. I want that version. I want that version. Yeah, same. Yeah. That's pretty dope, man. But shout out to your wife for like staying with you and kind of writing the storm too. Because that's like really difficult, I think that any significant other that is with somebody that has the disease and is with them like during the disease, then trying to get them

1:14:04sober through it, you know, it's very hard on them too. Like what did she do to cope? Anything or was she just consumed with you and the kids? So she did a lot. She went to, she went to see a therapist as well, which like therapy changed my life. Therapy is like, it is great, but therapy for change my life. And she went to therapy as well. And then she tried to Allen on once. And she's like, now fuck this, I'm not about this. And then the more I went to meetings, the more I would kind of push her like, try Allen on, try Allen on. And it took her a long time, but now she's actually going to Allen on regularly. And she got a sponsor and everything. But yeah, for her, when she first went to Allen on, they preach like, you can't control anyone. The fuck I can't control him. Are you kidding me? He's my husband. Right, right, right. I mean, technically a woman can control their husband.

1:15:05Not the disease though. Yeah, yeah, not the disease. Not the disease. You hear that, babe? You can't control the disease. We can't control the disease. No. We try. Try every way. But damn, my wife says no. It means no, dammit. And if I say yes, then I better be willing to suffer the consequences. Oh, isn't that right? We can do whatever we want. That was my sponsor. That was my sponsor. Because my last sponsor, the one that died, he even like my first year of sobriety, he was like, you want to go test the waters with ladies? Go test the waters with ladies. But you better be willing to suffer the consequences and not pick up. And you better be honest with them up front. And I was like, ah, there's my problem.

1:16:07Honesty. I can't be honest with the fucking, you know, all I am manipulating, tell you, I really like you. And then I wake up one morning and realize, I really don't. I was lying this whole time. I was lonely now that I got what I needed. Actually, yeah. Dude, thanks for coming down and sharing. Yeah. Freaking dope. Yeah, it's been a long time. We had a Canadian in earlier today. We don't normally do two podcasts in the day, but we did. And the girl came, she's from Canada. We're not now. In the media. She from, is that where what's this name was from? Oh, that's what I was, I was getting it wrong. Like I don't have family in Winnipeg. I have family in Calgary, Alberta, Edmonton, not Winnipeg. Mm hmm. Yeah. That's what I was like, oh, Canada doesn't mean. Oh, this is shipping. I started thinking that during the podcast, I was like, yeah, for sure.

1:17:09How long did you find, how long did it take for you to find relief once you started to like dive back in? Because I think it happens to a lot of people once they're in recovery that all of a sudden kind of life starts to get better because things start to come back to us. And then we forget the one thing that actually gave us that life, which is the program and or whatever, however you're working your program. And then slowly we are stuck with ourselves. And then we go to really dark, dark places. For me, what I realized, what got me, where I noticed the big shift was, wasn't therapy. So I had to work through losing my brother. And I did some EMDR and that shit's game changer. And I also had to work through some childhood trauma that I didn't even tell you guys about. Mm hmm. This shit's deep. Yeah. I was, I was molested as a child. Oh, wow. Yeah. That you were aware of that you tucked away or that you discovered when you were in therapy.

1:18:10I was aware of it and tucked it away. And like brushed it off like, it's nothing. And like, yeah, didn't want to, didn't want to relive that shit. I didn't want to go through it. But that's, that's the point. Yeah, EMDR is the amazing for that as well. Because EMDR like gives you a, gives you the file of the event, right? You recognize it, you read it, you accept it, you close it up, then you put it in the vote. Yeah. And like, you get, I drew it. I did the same thing with EMDR. Yeah. Same machine. Yeah. Yeah. You have to work through it, right? The only way out is through it. And if you don't work through the shit, it's stuck in there. Yeah. I'm scared to do EMDR and like open up things that I'm like, I don't want to open up those like, let's keep those. It's so worth it. It's so worth it on the other side. Yeah. Yeah. If you have trauma that, that, that you have not worked through, I, I recommend doing

1:19:11it because you do stay stuck and I've, I've become a better person through it. And I still probably have tons and tons of stuff I could continue working on. And I think that, you know, we do on a daily basis, but there's so much stuff that has been freeing for me from that. I love that. I, I was in therapy for this, this recovery student for like three years straight. I know you've been talking about going. I mean, I did. I went. How long do you guys think I went for therapy? Like four times. No, I, I, I just call on her out. I gave it a good shot. And then I luckily got a new boyfriend. An opportunity. I got a job or like a little opportunity. So I left the country. And so obviously, you didn't go back up to that. I didn't. It gave me like a good, good, free, you know, get out of therapy free card. I really, like I love therapy. I believe in it. I think it's really, really great.

1:20:12I think there's so many different types of ways to like uncover things, get through trauma, whatever it is that makes you work through situations and circumstances and all the things that block you from being a better you. I think is really important for me personally, like the times that I have tried therapy, because I tried therapy early on in my early 20s. And then again, at the beginning of my marriage, because I had relapsed at the beginning of that, my ex marriage or whatever you do. How do you say that to make sure you're clarified that I'm not married? Any more or any less than you were yesterday. Yeah. It's fact. And then through my divorce. So I don't know. Maybe it was my therapist or maybe the kind of therapy that I was doing where it was nothing on. Was it talk therapy? Just talking it out. Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of feel like I get that with my sponsor and my meetings, you know, where it's like I get to my solution.

1:21:14So I didn't feel and it has nothing to do with the therapist. You know, they were great, but I don't. They were right for you. I didn't think that it was like I'm not walking out being like enlightened as fuck or like how this new profound way of searching through whatever issues that I'm going through. Like talk therapy, I'm telling my sponsor what's up. And I'm just like I talked that shit out and find the solution to it, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It's the therapist. It's the therapist now. Yeah. You got to find a good one. And it's just like a sponsor. You got to find the right one. That's true. And for me, talk therapy is great. It's great. It's for people that don't have sponsors. Right. Right. Like we have sponsors and we work through stuff. But for me, it's what's the work? What's the work that I'm going to do? That's the kind of what I was waiting for. I did the 12th. Yeah. You know, I was waiting for like some. Did you tell them that? I didn't. Emily told me I should. Yeah.

1:22:14I know. I know. I know. I might give it another go of just kind of. It's funny if I bring up therapy for like my family. My brother's like, you just need Jesus. Yeah, I do. I try to fill myself with the Holy Spirit every day. Jesus could be sending you the right. It's totally true. Right. It's cool about even talk therapy though. Because like when you know your sponsor and you know like, you know, whoever else in your circle that you talk to, just for me, and I can only speak for myself sometimes, I might not give them all of the information. For sure. You can manipulate that. You know, because I can manipulate them. But like if I'm going to go to therapy, I'm just going to go in there and just fucking lay it all out on the line. Trauma dump. Here it is. It's just like, this is the truth. This is what's going on in my life. These are the things I've done and these are the things that are bothering me. And you know what?

1:23:15I lie to the people because I don't want them to know the truth. So here's the truth. What do you think about that and how do I work through it? Yeah. And it doesn't mean that you have to be honest with you don't have to be honest. Like there's things in your life that is your personal business in your personal life. You know, and like, you know, not every single person needs to know everything. You know, and there's some stuff that like I just might not be comfortable telling my sponsor because I sit next to him in a meeting or or you know, and I've told him some deep dark secrets. But my dark deepest darkest secrets I walked into the mother fucking Catholic church and I'm not Catholic. And I thought I was I thought I was getting away with it on the on the fifth step because I was like, oh, dude, I seen it on church. You go into this little booth. He slides the fucking thing. I'm going to read the paper. No. No, no, no. I walked in. I was like, I need to do a confession. So when priest comes, takes me into this room.

1:24:16He grabs like a little school table chair and sits on it. Garb is another one for me. And we're face to face. And I was like, this is not. I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, you're funny, God. Yeah. I said, you are. He is alive. Have you ever done confession? Oh, if you do it in a booth. No, that's what's messed up is that because you have to do your confession. If you do first communion and all the things going up in Catholic church and they do it exactly how you explained it. So I'm sitting face to face with a priest and I'm like, that's why for the longest time I had a container at 15 and you go and kneel in front of the Virgin Mary. I wasn't a virgin. I was already having sex with my high school boyfriend. So I was like, I'm going to help. This is horrible. How many help? Yeah, 10. I didn't even know. He said to me. The home on the road. I had to tell you. I finished the confession and he goes, all right, now go up there and do 10 Hail Mary.

1:25:21But you're hilarious. You're like, I'm so happy. I don't know what the hell is. And 10, what was the other fathers? Our fathers. So I walk up and I was just trying to do the right thing. I just walk up. I sit down. I don't know if I kneeled or whatever. And I said, Hail Mary 10 times. I said, our fathers 10 times and I bolted out. I know it's crazy. Anyway, you were Catholic, right? Yeah, yeah. What age did you do your first confession? I was young because my first communion, I was like a little girl. So I want to say I was like in the fifth grade when I want to say that's about right. Elementary school when you do your first communion, I believe. And I want to say that they had to do confessions then with the priest. And I remember being like, what is that? Yeah, yeah. I grew up Catholic. Yeah. So I'm allergic to religion. I mean, I get, that's why when I have like, sponsors and they have such a hard time with religion or God or higher power,

1:26:25I completely understand just because I've seen it on both ends of being in the Catholic church. And then also I've witnessed it going to Christian churches as well. But what was so cool about my parents at such early age, like my best friend, she's Mormon. So I got to go to her church and experience that. Then I had a lot of Jewish friends. So I got to celebrate there that botmits buzz. So like my parents weren't things like psych over religious, like your Catholic, your only Catholic. You're only going on Sundays at this, you know, but I was very much raised like God and essentially a higher power. Yeah. Like you call upon him for all your needs. Yeah. You know, as opposed to like these weird restraints where humans really fuck religion up. Oh, they do. So similar to you, I grew up Catholic. I did my first holy communion because I wanted the bread and the wine. I couldn't wait. I was so upset when I was a kid when the youngest. I was like, can't I go? I want to go out there. I want to try. I'm trying Jesus. Yes.

1:27:25I know. I know. I cannot wait to go get in line and get the fucking bread. It was like you are nuts. I did the confession and I'm like, no, I'm not about this and I stop going. I'm pretty sure I lied. Yeah. I was like, okay. I've cast a couple of kinds. Right. I might yelled at my brother. I don't know. What's a sin again? Yeah. Yeah. I lied one time. I was like, you know, you're so young that I was popping off in elementary school. Yeah. But yeah. Crazy. Well, Jesse, again, pleasure having you come out here. Yes, your story is amazing. We absolutely love you. I love the fact that we get to have people that come on on Tuesday nights and like be part of the movement. Be a part of recover out loud and then actually have like. You come in house. It's been healed us. It is. Chuck Zamsau's been Julian. Yeah. Who else? Vaughan Vaughan. Vaughan Vaughan lives down the street probably. He should have been in here a long time ago.

1:28:26He has. And we've had him. He comes to our Jennifer Foot. Her name is Jennifer like foot, but I just like to say it. Yeah. It has a e on the end. It might be food though. I think it might be food. Yeah. Is it Jennifer? Yeah. Jennifer, are you watching this episode? Yeah. But anyways, appreciate you coming down, dude. It was so dope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a cool meat and your family as well. Oh, yes. It's really fucking awesome being here. Yeah. Yeah, we're awesome. It's really cool. I can't wait for all of our recover out loud little community crew to listen to your episode because it's really. It's really awesome. Amen. Amen. Amen.