Inside Michael Wolff's uncomfortably close relationship with Epstein

0:00A mochi moment from Mark, who writes? I just want to thank you for making GLP1's affordable. What would have been over $1,000 a month is just $99 a month with mochi. Money shouldn't be a barrier to healthy weight. Three months in and I have smaller jeans and a bigger wallet. You're the best. Thanks, Mark. I'm Myra Ammon, founder of Mochi Health. To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Mark is a mochi member compensated for his story. Welcome back to the Tower of Palm Airy Show. Who is the real Michael Wolf? He claims to be the Epstein Whisperer. After all, he spent decades with Jeffrey Epstein recording him on tapes, many of which we have never seen. But why? I get into that in this show. He's also raised over $800,000 through a GoFundMe account to subpoena and depose Melania Trump. What will it actually happen? What's the end game? What's going on behind there?

1:01Well, Lev Parnas, he called me up on one Monday afternoon in Satara. I've got to do a show with you and Ellie Leonard, who is another independent journalist who has been covering that Jeffrey Epstein's story very closely. And who? Michael Cohen has been going after. He's been going after me a lot. And so as Michael Wolf and the two of them have come together and they both went after me on their podcast. They called me a conspiracy theorist and a leftist. And I think anyone who's been following this show knows that I am far from it, I play in the facts. And I don't think anyone would ever call me a leftist. That's for sure. I am a journalist straight down the middle. And this is their way of attacking me and my journalism, because I pointed out that Michael Wolf wanted to buy New York Magazine with Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. Yeah, they put together a bid. So what exactly was his relationship like with Jeffrey Epstein? He said, I sucked it up to spit it right out. That's how explains the coziness. Anyone who's looked through the Epstein files realizes they were more than cozy, very cozy. And then he knew a lot more about Epstein

2:02than he's even really revealed up until this moment, even now. So we get into all of that more. Who is the real Michael Cohen? What is his end game? Is it fully transparency and disclosure of which every Epstein was up to? Or is it about lining us pockets? Take a listen here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I get cut out because my internet was really spotty. I know it sucks. You get to hear part of what I had to say and the rest about let from Lev and Ellie and they are fascinating. It's a much more casual conversation. Again, we'd love to hear what you think. There are three people on the show. So it gets a little different. But please hit that subscribe button. That's how you can support this show. You can go to tarrypalmary.com to sign up for my exclusive reporting and to get these videos before everybody else. Hey, everybody, welcome. Welcome to a special, very special library numbers with two incredible, especially guests. We have Ellie Leonard and tarrypal Mary.

3:04Some incredible investigative journalist, journalist, real independent journalist, what we need and what we stand for. And they've been doing some incredible work when it comes to the Epstein files. And today we're going to, as the question is, who is the real Michael Wolfe? And the past, I want to start off by saying a lot of people have been getting passes for some reason. And like Michael Cohen, Michael Wolfe, because for some reason, because at some point, they pretended to be part of the good guys. They came out and tried to come out and say, well, we weren't a part of it, but I know this much, this much. Then all of a sudden, the Epstein files dumb came. And way and behold, we start finding out things that we never know. All of a sudden, we're starting to see that Michael Cohen wasn't as truthful with us as he was. It's a lie saying that he never knew who Epstein was.

4:04Coming on, literally on every show saying, I've been around Donald Trump for as long as I know, and I've never even heard a name Epstein. We knew something was wrong. Then we take Michael Wolfe. He was on a campaign every daily show, television, that everybody took him in, just like, that sweetheart, he's gonna go sue Melania. He's gonna uncover all of this corruption. He's gonna show you who the real Donald Trump and Epstein is, goes, raises close to a million dollars. And all of a sudden, the Epstein files drop, and he disappears. And all of a sudden, he starts blocking everybody. And for some reason, a lot of people in this echo chamber, and this community keep saying, leave them alone, move on. We need to join forces, we need to unite. I want to stop everybody right there, is unite with who, pedophile protectors, unite with who, people that were part of the corruption, unite with who, people that are trying to cover up and not come to the truth. No, we are not going to unite with those type of people. There's certain standards, I think,

5:05certain people have, and it doesn't matter what it is. So, and thank God that there's really good people like Ellie, like Tara, and others, Eve, and Kate, Justice, and others that don't care what people say, and they're continuously fighting to be able to uncover stuff. And we're uncovering stuff every day, folks, till this day, every day, things are being uncovered, things that are incredible. So, I want to start off by this. I want to play something to you, and then we're going to get into it. So, Michael Cohen and Michael Wolfe have had, did a podcast. Some of you might have enjoyed me last night. I did a special honor that I played a little bit, so bear with me, but for a lot of you that haven't heard it. I want you to hear, because they are basically now both trying to whitewash their whatever involvement in the Epstein situation, and talking, and now they're trying to talk about attacking real independent journalists, like Ellie, like Tara, or like others, trying to turn them into the bad guys

6:05and flip the script. So, we're not going to allow them to do it. We're going to go over some real facts and proof. But before we go, guys, let me play this so everybody could hear it, and then we'll discuss it. Thank you, Zof. There he is. It's when you and I were sitting and talking on the street. I was asking you about, for example, Tara, Paul Mary, left planis, this guy's Zed, left, Dean Blondell, L Leonard, and the whole group of other, far-left-wing activists in their own minds. They call themselves by influencers, right? Whether it's on, whatever platform that they're on. They win, and they make all of these statements. Michael Cohen claims, you know, there's nothing about Donald Trump's relationship, but you're free Epstein. We now have the official government documents that prove he was lying to everyone. In fact, they go ahead and they post the following, which has Cohen also tried to separate

7:07the Katie Johnson rape allegation into two different cases on PDB. That's the Patrick Bitt David podcast, claiming he only handled the Jane Doe complaint. But his online collapsing, described sending private investigators to the accuser's address calling it a vacant parking lot. She left pulled up the actual location. It's a house, the lawyer calling contact that turned out to be the same lawyer connected to Katie Johnson. His own words confirmed what investigators have been saying. It was the same case all along. But here's the interesting part, right? The lawyer in itself, in a document in a text message to me, claims, I never dealt with an attorney named Michael Cohen, and then he says, you are conflating to entirely different Jane Doe cases, meaning they're completely wrong, right? And this has caused me. And I know that Tarapal, Mary and Levin others

8:08have caused you a similar sort of a mixed end. Well, I don't really know. Yes, they really, they really happen. I mean, I'm aware of these people. I'm partly aware of them. But there is, I don't know what they seem to me. There are conspiracy buffs. The world is filled with, it's like crime buffs, conspiracy buffs. I don't know what they get out of this and I don't know how they get subscribers and money. Well, I suppose they're trying to claw out a living in this desperately difficult business. So I think that's, and this probably, and there is a coterie, I think, of people who are interested in these kinds of conspiracies and everything piled onto everything and everything conflated in it's a kind of a,

9:09it's a somewhat of a fantasy world. And I think that they live in that, but that doesn't affect me very much. You get comments, but I mean, the nice thing about sub-status, it's an easy block. So, so I, you know, I don't know, and that's also one of the things about defamation and libel from it. So that was one of it. You guys want me to play another two clips before we go into all of our questions. But the world conspiracy about the fact that he wanted to buy New York magazine and in fact, put together a bid that fell through in the last minute with Harvey Weinstein and Jeffrey Epstein, Michael Wolff, there is no conspiracy there. There are documents, there are emails, that is not a conspiracy. There is no conspiracy over what Michael Cohen told me from his own mouth about sending private investigator to find a Jane Doe. I've never been called a conspiracy theorist

10:10in my 2018 years as a journalist. Yeah. What about far left, left this? No, no one's ever called me. I've never been called a far left to see there. No, but like just that terminology when he said a far left conspiracy theorist, I was like, oh, okay, he's totally flipped them. Like, that's the thing. I mean, you don't say, you don't call us left radicals. Thank you. You're like hiding on the right. Like that terminology doesn't exist unless you are coming from a certain side of the question. Also, he's the one who's obsessed with this. Like, here's what I think. We didn't bring up Katie Johnson to him. We just asked him about if he knew about Epstein. Like, we didn't even bring it up. Here's the thing. The problem right now is that both of these men are sitting on a lot of information that they continue, well, in Michael Wolf's case, he continues to tease it out. I'm the only person who understands Jeffrey Epstein because he spent a really long time with him, recording him, observing him. And yet, Congress has, I mean,

11:12I'm against subpoenaing journalists and trying to force them to give up their materials. But the truth is that she has been trying to sell these tapes to various people for publication. He's looking for the highest bidder and he just hasn't gotten the price that he wants. So at that point, like, when are you actually holding back information that is in the public interest just to sort of, right to ask for these tapes that he's been frankly shopping around trying to sell. I know, I know this is for a fact. Like, he's trying to sell these tapes. And now he says, I'm the Epstein whisperer. You don't understand him the way that I understand him. Well, like, why didn't you ever say anything over the decades of time that you spent with him? If you, so like, I've seen some time going through his emails, right? I went to the emails in November. They were fairly damning, but there were a smaller trove of emails. And now we have 1800 pages of Michael Wolf emails.

12:13And I have a lot of concerns because like the things that I am reading, I kind of wonder if he's not afraid now to make those audio tapes public because he's worried about what he may have said. I'm reading emails where he is trying, he's giving statements for Jeffrey Epstein to say to discredit Julie Kay Brown's reporting from the Miami Herald in 2018. And he was advising him. He was advising him and then Epstein was trying to put him at his book, right? Like, and then he comes out and he is like, I met the devil Jeffrey Epstein and it's like, no, you didn't you traveled with him to Europe. Like, there was no point in their relationship where there was any kind of worry or suspicion. Like they were clearly pals and for a long period of time, like close. Ellie, it's so crazy to me about the fact that he traveled, Jeffrey Epstein.

13:13I remember talking to other journals, so it worked with him at the same magazines as him and they were just like, I wouldn't be surprised this guy was on this plane with him. I wouldn't be surprised. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and he was. He, he sucked it up to spit it right out, right? That's what he said. Yeah. What did he say? I'm crazy. Yeah. Go ahead. But I don't know. You go ahead. You know Cohen. I don't understand that. That's great question. Yeah, well, this is a great, well, I know why they haven't subpoenaed them because who's in charge of the subpoena power and James Comer? James Comer's not gonna allow a Cohen to go up there and spill his guts about what he possibly might know on Donald Trump. He's not gonna, that's why they haven't gotten after wealth. Just think about. Trump comes out, makes a statement saying, wolf and Epstein conspired to go after my campaign. And then you, and then Trump's not going after wealth? Think about it. I mean, the fact that, you know, there's a reason because he knows those tapes and that's why wolf you're right. He's playing it.

14:13And that leads me into this whole thing with this lawsuit. You know, that he, you know, supposed to slap anti-slap all of this, you know, promoting himself actually using people's money because at the end of the day, there's a couple of things. First of all, the lawsuit itself is virtually, it's a long shot. Let's start off that to begin with. He's trying to basically sue Melania Trump to be able to, as he says, and this is where it gets interesting to depose her, to depose her and Donald Trump. Well, the thing is that the lawsuit that he's suing for is called the anti-slap suit. And that means that the resolution you get is not to go into deposing them and going to some trial trial. What you get is if you, if Michael were to win, let's say if he were to be able to actually serve Melania, which he hasn't served you yet, and he was actually to proceed with this. And the judge ruled in his favor and said, yes, you win.

15:14Though what Melania would have to do is a, drop her lawsuit, I mean, drop her lawsuit that she threatened to sue him, so she wouldn't be able to sue him. So she wouldn't be able to sue him and be she would have to pay his attorney's fees. So those are the only thing. There is no deposition. There is no like going to some sort of a trial. It's basically to stop from being able to sue. He is using that basically and he's talking on this whole podcast with Michael Cohen about how that money is not to him. That money is to his attorneys. They're drawing down on it. You know, this is going to be a long thing. We're going to have to, we're trying to find Melania, but eventually we're going to get her. But then it gets interesting. You're listening to this podcast. So I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you may not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by.

16:15In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. National average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers survey who saved with progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. So he's talking about he's doing it for the people, right? Like he's playing this like trying to be this hero that the people, the tens of thousands of people have given him almost a million dollars to go get Melania to admit what? Then she slept with Donald Trump on Jeffree Epstein's airplane. That's what the whole, that's what he accused Melania. That's what she said. She's suing him for liability and all of this thing. That's what started it. So then he responds to Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen asked him, he goes, well, what happens if she lies? What happens if she comes in there and says, no, that never happened. I didn't sleep with Donald Trump. So Michael also says, well, I have the Epstein tapes where Epstein says that he did.

17:16So I mean, right here and there, I just want to understand just that alone, why is he not just releasing that thing? If he was really a hero, if he was really a first in the one accountability, he goes on all of these stuff. Is that enough proof like Epstein's word? But it would be at least enough to be able to let the world at least hear Epstein's own words and have the White House respond to it, have Melania respond to it, have Trump respond to it. I mean, it's better in the meantime, he's spending a million dollars. I mean, he's raising a million dollars to go sue to say, because at the end of the day, Melania says, no, I didn't say it. What is he going to do? What is Melania's, let's say Melania turns around lies and says, I didn't, let's say he gets everything he wanted to do. His plan, and let me play him. So just so you can hear what his plan is. So the folks, you can hear it with your own ears. One second, let me put you here. Good. Go with actually just how sick,

18:18demented they are. I call it, ask them the question. Hold on, you got to listen to this. And there's another part I want you guys to listen to, and that's important there. I think it's the way they go into about how he makes a really crazy statement because you know, these narcissists and wolf is a narcissist, just like Epstein and Trump and all of them. And they do not realize what the things they say sometimes. And he made a statement here. We're going to, I'm going to try and find it for you guys to listen to him. He says this and this is important. He goes, he goes right now, Michael, the only people that are talking about the Epstein files are people that have no idea firsthand knowledge, because the people with firsthand knowledge are too scared to talk to get in trouble. So he's talking from a perspective of a pedophile, that the pedophiles are keeping quiet, they're not talking. But he's forgetting that we're talking, you're talking like Tara, you Ellie, you guys are talking about it because you spoke to the victims.

19:18You guys have seen the files. You are speaking from first half knowledge, from the survivors, from the victims. And he's only thinking about the first hand knowledge that the actual perpetrators, or the actual criminals, or the actual pedophile. And it just shows the subconscious criminal in this. It makes him sound like he's putting himself in that box, too. Right. Right. He doesn't even realize it. But let me pull a listen to this, guys. Let's listen to this one. At DSW, we ask the important questions. Like, what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate VK, the right shoes can make or break an RSVP. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with designer shoe warehouse. That's your DSW store or DSW.com today. And let us surprise you. The numbers people at the White House,

20:19and when this happened, this person said, well, nobody here saw that comment. So they're in, they're in a bind here that if it's lawsuit progresses, they will have to testify. Sure. So now you have them one or both at the deposition table. And you ask a specific question. And the response, let's say hypothetically, did you ever engage in sexual activities and talking to Melania with Donald or anyone on Jeffrey Epstein's aircraft, known as the Lolita Express? And she says no. She says no. Do you have information that would contradict that statement? Because that goes directly to the question I was asking you before. You know, what do you hope to uncover? You know, it's like you can't deal.

21:22Of course, and obviously, as I say, I have Epstein on tape talking about that. But I think it's you, you would, you would triangulate that with flight logs, dates, who was, who was where, who was, who else was on that flight. You know, to subpoena, it's not just to subpoena them. It was, we have the power. This lawsuit extends the power to subpoena, anyone who has relevant information. So, so that's all alive. First of all, again, this lawsuit, and there's nobody to subpoena. He's not suing anybody. Yeah. This is a, this is such a fraud. I don't even say he's not suing anyone. It was subpoena for what? Who is he subpoenaing? What does this give a, give a subpoena for to do absolutely nothing? And I'm not even a lawyer. And you want me, you guys can share a story with everybody. How crazy this is? How I found this out? Because I'm not a lawyer. I have nothing to do with slap lawsuits. So, Michael Cohen started attacking us, all of us.

22:25Tara, Ellie, and everybody. So, I said to myself, I said, you know what? Let's try to do. Michael Wolfe has this great idea. This, you know, what if we do the same thing to Michael Cohen? And we go sue Michael Cohen, anti-slap, and go depose him about what he knows about and perhaps he might not do the same thing to him what he's trying to do. So, I go out there and we find the top anti-slap lawyers in the country in New York City. One of them happens to be knows Michael Cohen because Michael Cohen tried to approach him in an earlier suit about the case that the whole steal files. He wants to go after the steal dossier. And he turned him down. So, he even though, and he knows about Michael Wolfe case. So, he told me he goes, look, love. He goes, and this is a guy, you know, that really doesn't like Trump. That would, that probably would have done it for free. This is how, this is how, and he's a big guy. He goes to me, I would love to. He goes, but first of all, Wolfe, I mean,

23:27the chances of what the case, the law, case law that he's trying to do in New York is very slim for him to even get that through. Second of all, to serve her, and she's trying to get to, he goes, the loopholes, you have to get through to get to that. He goes, and then what do you achieve? I said, what do you mean? I said, you achieve the final, you get to depose him. Isn't that the end result? We would depose Michael Cohen, just like they would depose, you know, Melania, and then he goes, no. He goes, that's not the case. He goes, what would happen is, if you would win, Michael Cohen would not be able to sue you. And basically, he would have to pay your attorney's fees. I go, so what about all the money that I would raise through the GoFundMe, like Wolfe to pay for it? He goes, that, he goes, that's a good question, love. But that's not for me to decide. So think about that, folks. Just think about the craziest that's going on. And then again, the other question, because I asked him, I said, is it, does it cost a million dollars to do something like that? He goes, well, he goes, I'm a very high price attorney.

24:27He goes, I charge over $2,000 an hour. He goes, I would not take a million dollar retainer from you for this. He goes, probably a hundred thousand to start off with and see where we would even get, you know, before because, well, so I'm thinking about, why is he raising eight, where's this money going? Okay, understandably, it's not. He made $13 million on his book. He doesn't have the early, go ahead. He made so much money on his book, the idea that he just even asked for people's pennies to help him do this is just so entitled. Like, I just, and I get the money showed up here. He was like a hero and we're all like, hey, he's here, he's the Epstein guy. But like, that went downhill really quickly because right after he showed up, is when they did that first charge of emails in November, and people, you know, obviously had buyers remorse, but it's just like, with a little bit of like, oh, he's asking for money to help pay for this lawsuit, I'm going to double check and, you know, like,

25:28does he have the kind of money to pay for? Yeah, he does. He's a millionaire. Like, he doesn't pay for the money. And that was a little sketchy. And it was a bummer because, again, I tell people, I was a huge Michael, Michael Wolf fan. Like, over the huge fan, I have a couple of his books. Like, when I first became interested in this story, you know, he was a source of information. He's a great source of information, but as I read his emails and started to realize the intent behind how he got the information, it's really shady. I mean, I've just today, I've gone through, I mean, some days are totally boring, reading his emails. Today's was not boring. Like, today, I went through several emails where Epstein is talking with him and he's like, oh, you know, we got to, we got to go catch and kill this thing before he gets too far and he goes, okay, hold on. I got to wait until all the girls wake up and then we'll go do this. And it's like, they're talking about his hot, you know, all the girls waking up. Like, he just knew everything that was going on. And there's just so much stuff that he was covering up and getting rid of.

26:30And his, in his own words, he was neutralizing to help Epstein's reputation. And he goes, this is where you get your reputation back. This is where we fix everything today. You just got to help me out to get Trump and then we're going to fix everything that people have said about you. And it's like, that was his intent, whether it was for Epstein or for himself. Like, there was no worry about the relationship. Like, he was, he was his buddy. Hey, guys, it's me again, raving about Quince. I'm wearing another one of their silk long sleeve shirts. I seem to wear them on the show every day because they look so good and the quality is great. And they're washable, which I love. But it's spring, so it's time to reset my closet and maybe get some short sleeves or sleeveless. And I'm sure you'll see more silk shirts on the show. But when I'm not on the show, I wear their organic cotton tees or I'm wearing their European linen shirts because they are really elevated. The fabric is amazing. And the prices start at just $50. And you're probably wondering how they're able

27:31to do this in an ethical way. Well, it's because they cut out the middleman. So if you're like me and it's time to reset your wardrobe, go to quince.com slash Tara for free shipping and 365 days of returns. Now available in Canada too. So go to q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash Tara for free shipping and 365 days of returns. quince.com slash Tara. Well, and that's a great point to what you're saying and bringing it all to what's happening right now. It's, I mean, he's doing the same thing. I mean, back then, he was basically playing Epstein to, for whatever reason, there were buddies. He was, you know, at the end of the day, it's all about money and power. You know, it's not because, you know, him and Epstein went to ball games together or liked to go fishing or even go to a poker game. Everything has to do with some political or financial or some sort of, you know,

28:33some sort of story or killing a story or rehabilitation. I mean, and by way, folks Tara is having some bad internet issues. She's trying to get back on. If we get her back, hopefully, I sent her a request. Just so we know, we didn't just cut her off. We just threw her off the stage. Yeah. So, yeah. And now you take a look at, I mean, he's basically doing the same grift, but now with the American public. Because he came on and just think about it. He fooled everybody because he came on or time where he was. He really was a real source to the Epstein files because we nobody think about. Not him. How many people, including the people you're seeing every day, including the, you know, the Latinics of the world and all of that, that never would have imagined that this these files, these emails, all of the stuff would come out. Nobody ever could even imagine that the persistence of all of us here on this platform to be able to push Congressman Rokhan and Massey

29:36that nobody could have imagined that you would have Marjorie Taylor Greene and have all just think about how many things aligned for it to actually because none of them would have imagined. And that's why in the meantime, these are the people that were sitting there while this was playing out. They were grifting, making money, going on these shows, selling their bucks, talking about how, oh, release the files. Release the files. We need all the files released. We need to, and what happened when they released the files, folks? All of a sudden, and here they are. I just wanted to say something, too, because like, there's sort of like a two sides of the coin, especially when you're dealing with Michael Cohen, you get a lot of people going like, how could you ever have had any faith in him or how could you at, you know, how could you be so stupid? How could you, you know, obviously, this is who he's always been. And I just want to say just as a probably more optimistic person, than your average bear maybe, that it's okay that we're like trying to look for a hero in this, right?

30:36There's a lot of bad stuff. And being hopeful is okay. And of course, we got to do our homework. And of course, you bet your sources. And of course, you pay attention. And it's somebody starts to do stuff that feels a little off, like pay attention to it. But I don't think it's like stupid of people to be hopeful that somebody might change and do better, right? And so like when Michael Cohen came along, when Michael Wolfe came along, like being hopeful that there are people filled with information, because again, if they do the right thing, yeah, that is a powerful source, that is an absolutely powerful source that could help, you know, write an ending to this story. But so far, that's not what they're doing. And it's not, you know, because I see a lot of sort of infighting between people who are hopeful and thought that these were good people versus people who are just like, you're so stupid, how can you ever think that these are terrible people? And it's like, I am one of these hopeful people, and I will always be hopeful of people doing the right thing and changing. And but again, it is a good lesson in paying attention

31:41and making sure that your hopefulness doesn't get ahead of you and people aren't taking advantage of you, because now you have them apparently teaming up together. And just as Michael Wolfe did with Julie Kay Brown and Tina Brown and all these other journalists along the way, Ronan Farrow, who are doing good things for survivors, he's trying to discredit the work that's happening on the Epstein files and call us hysterical, which I have to say, just speaking as a woman, like call me hysterical, get Michael, just go ahead and keep calling me that, because all that does is it just adds gasoline and I'm just going to keep looking, keep fighting, keep publicizing. But like, it's okay. Yeah, it's just okay to be hopeful. We're in a very dark time. And having a little hope to kind of get us through the end of the day, I don't think it's a bad thing. Ellie, I just want to say, I mean, you hit my heart right now, because I want everybody,

32:43when you watch this, I want you to replay those words, what she said, because she's so right. And this is so important. And that's why I want people to understand that we have to be able to believe and hope, but we have to be smart enough to realize, once we realize that, you know, it's not what it is, we have to let go and move on, and that's the important part. So the fact that, yeah, I mean, my own personal story, with Michael Wolf and Michael Cohen, I mean, I knew Michael Cohen was not the perfect guy. I knew Michael Cohen better than anybody on this platform, but I also, you know, understood what he came from, I understood the pain he went through, I understood his family's pain, I understood, you know, more than others, because I went to a very similar journey. I also understood me and Michael also had a little bit of different paths, different journeys, and different things that we took. And, you know, and at some point, it came to a, to a heads up where he had to make a choice, and that's, he made a choice. That's what the

33:44car, it's not kind of say what he did in the past. That's why he, well, he's 100% right. Like, you know, the people that say here, oh, you know, how could you ever listen to Michael Cohen, or how could you ever, what's it called? Don't do that. It's not about that, because what Michael Cohen was testifying there in front of the whole world of Donald Trump. He was a hero to everybody and everybody was like, Ra Ra Ra, Michael Cohen. So I'm saying to you, Ali is 100% right. We need to be able to look at people and give them a chance, because redemption is true. Look, I'm a perfect example of redemption. You know, some, to me, it's, you know, it's a hard line to always walk, because of people like Michael Cohen or Michael Wolf that, you know, and I feel sometimes like, you know, there's these different, like, you know, situations in life where, you know, people get accused of certain things, and then they have to, and they mess it up for people that really get like the battered women's treatment, or, you know, people that fake, that they get beat up, and then, you know, they make a bet for other women that get beat up, and stuff like that. It's like the same people here, like, you know, I'm saying to you, they're

34:47going out there right now and making a bet for other people that are trying to come out, and to be able to give the truth, to be able to help, because of the, the version of divisiveness that's happening. So, Ellie, I just want to say that I was on, on that and I, and I, and I agree with you that, you know, we should have, we tried, listen, I was going to speak to Michael Wolf literally, that day before the Epstein files drop. Watch, I watched him, it was pretty good. I was watching him on the watch, he really showed the left hook, and after I saw him talk about he had a hundred tapes or something, and after he got off the show, I called Watch, I said, Watch, can you get me in touch with Wolf? I want to do a show with him because I want to talk more about his tapes, and then literally the next day, I think, the Epstein files dropped, and all of a sudden he disappeared, and then the next thing, you know, he went after Ellie, and we responded, he blocked all of us, and then you hear it even in the, in the, with his own voice, he goes, Oh, don't worry about, you know, sub-stack, I just blocked everybody. And then, you know, but think about how much money,

35:47you know, he's raking in and doing right now, by going in, he's the Epstein whisperer, and then he talks about that people like you, me, others out there that sticking to strict facts, nobody claims to know. All we're doing is literally like, thank you. Downloading a document from the file and just showing it to people, like, I'm not, it's not my opinion, it's not conjecture, I'm just like, this is just your email, and here it is, and just I, the level of arrogance, like this, it's, it's a narrative of this whole investigation, right? This whole story is arrogance and entitlement, and what you deserve for being in a position of money and power. He is in a position of money and power. He's at a very high level of journalism or whatever, but he's also developed a reputation for that, and like, just his approach, you know, the things, the wording that he knows what he's saying, when he says that somebody is hysterical, or an opportunist, or trying a one of the influencers, which I find hilarious, because I was like,

36:50do we do like dance videos, or like make up tutorials, what do we do? But just like, and then like, even when he was talking about Debbie, he's like, you know, that guy, what's his name, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What his name is, like it's all meant to be a dig and a takedown, because I'm Michael Wool, and I'm a great journalist, I'm a great author, and you're just, you're just, you know, conspiracy theorists, you're just armchair investigators, you know, you're these people clicking on your laptop, it's like, it's meant to be arrogant and to discredit, and that's what he did the entire time, if you read all his emails, his job was to discredit anybody who got in the way, and I'm just not getting out of the way. I think that's the plan, from here on out, I'm not getting out of the way, and if things come up, and I have them, and I can just be like, here, then I'm going to do that, because we haven't done that the whole time, and that's why we're here, that's why we're here 30 years later, so nobody's doing that. So now we're going to do that, now we're going to show who's in there, and who's making bad decisions, and that's all we're

37:51going to do, and if you made a bad decision, and you know you made a bad decision, maybe come out and say something before that email shows up and just be like, look, I screwed up, this was a bad idea, I'm going to come out, and I'm going to say it, and I'm going to be honest, and like nobody's being honest, and I just, I don't get it, I don't get where the honesty is, maybe it's their brains are broken, I don't. Ellie, I can't figure it out either. No, I love it though, I can't figure it out either, but you know, I could tell you they're not going to stop you, and then I can stop us, and I'm going to keep going. Yeah, mama wolf, that's Ellie. Ellie is it? Yeah, so yeah, sister wolf. Yeah, sister wolf. Yeah, I'm going to say, yeah, I'm the mama pop up there. I'm grandpa already. Yeah, I feel like that. Yeah, I'm going to congratulate you. Okay, thank you. Thank you so much. Melissa, guys, first of all, Ellie, I want to thank you so much for taking time. I know you got full schedule. Ellie's going to be on five o'clock with Zef Shalem. Make sure you guys go join them. They're breaking a lot of incredible stuff, and make sure before you join, you go hit that little button up there and make sure you go

38:53subscribe if you have any to Ellie to terror to myself, do the cross pollination and folks. Very importantly, I'm going to be blunt with you. I know a lot of people sugarcoated, and shameless, but I'm going to be, you know me, I say the way it is. You need to, if you can, become paid subscribers to Ellie Leonard to myself, to terror to other independent journals, wherever you listen to, wherever you support, it's extremely important because these are, this is our full-time jobs. That was another episode of The Terror Pull Mary Show. Thank you so much for tuning in. I want to thank my producers Dan Chiffmucker and Mia Kasark for editing this. I want to thank Abby Baker, who does my social media and research and producing. I want to thank Dan Rosen, my manager, and Adam Stewart on the graphics. Of course, head to tarrapalmary.com. That's how you can sign up for my exclusive reporting to get these videos first and early. It's how you can read my essays, my reporting, everything. It's a way to support me too, and my independent journalism. So please hit that subscribe button, share, like follow,

39:54comment, just a community. Let's keep it going. Who is the real Michael Wolf? I want to hear from you. Hi, I'm Tamsen Fidel, journalist and author of How to Menopause and Host of the Tamsen Show, a weekly podcast with your roadmap to midlife and beyond. We covered all. From dating to divorce, aging to ADHD, sleep to sex, brain health to body fat, and even how Perry Menopause can affect your relationships and trust me, it can. Each week I sit down with doctors, experts, and leaders in longevity for unfiltered conversations packed with advice on everything from hormones to happiness. And of course, how to stay sane during what can be, well, let's face it, a pretty chaotic chapter of life. Think of us as your midlife survival guide. New episodes released every Wednesday. Listen now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.