Inside the ABS System with Dale Scott & Jeff Passan

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All right.

It is Blair and Barker on the SportsNet Radio Network

and SportsNet.

We've got an action packed show today.

We'll have Dale Scott, former MLB on part in Karachi,

fun to talk about ABS.

I figured it's a good time to check in with Dale.

I love Dale.

I'm not that interested in this accessory or anything.

I just, I'm intrigued by our conversation

with Caleb Joseph about the conversations you have in game,

hitter, umpire, umpire, umpire, umpire.

Pitcher, umpire, where do you have that pitch?

Like what's it, what does a guy say now?

It doesn't, it doesn't matter right out of the pitch

because there's a damn camera says that it anyhow.

So we'll talk to him about that.

We'll join Pasin if he's passed his medical,

uh, Pasin signing a contract extension with ESPN.

I mean, you, you know you're, you know you're, you know you're,

you know you're a wheel when they announced it on,

when they announced it on the big deal, right?

Yeah.

Well, he's a big deal in the US.

He is.

He's a big deal everywhere.

So anyhow, Pasin will join us, uh,

there will be baseball across the network today, uh,

on SportsNet TV, Simulcast on SportsNet's alternate stream.

SportsNet.ca slash 590 or the SportsNet app as team candidate

takes on the Blue Jays is preparation for the World Baseball Classic,

the, uh, Jays lineup.

I think we a good game for going out if you're out into need.

And this can be a lot of fun.

Springer, Lucas, Varsho, Barger, Schneider, Sanchez,

Valenz, Whale and Demalash on keys.

Of course, most of the Jays, uh, infield,

all of the Jays infields, no matter if fact,

they're often playing for the Mexico and Dominican Republic and USA.

So, but you're getting a pretty good lineup out of the Blue Jays for

Canada, Tyler Black, Abraham Toro, Josh Naylor, Tyler O'Neal,

Owen Casey, Otto Lopez, Matt Davidson, Bo Naylor, Denzel Clark.

You're, uh, I want you to look at that and read it.

Can you keep talking?

No, okay.

This is from Arden's Welling.

It was with the Blue Jays while a five man rotation is his preference.

There's a scenario in which the Blue Jays could open the season

with six starters, depending on health, workload, limitations,

and merit per John Schneider, Gossam and Cece,

Yisavage, Barrios, Pontchers, or Lauer, all in the running.

That's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

Huh.

All right.

Sorry.

I mean, I haven't looked at the schedule.

Are there any, are there many off days in that first?

There's, there's a couple, but you know, you're not,

you're not putting Max in the bullpen.

So it's like, you know, you, if you're going to sign him,

you're going to bring him here.

What are you going to talk about in the way you've been talking about him?

He's going to get an opportunity to start.

And, and what that tells me also is, you know, John Schneider's not just,

you know, be asking us when he says there's a competition there.

Clearly, there's a competition for at least one spot.

I mean, I'm sure they have, I'm sure they have.

I'm sure they know what they're going to do.

You're right. You're not putting shares or in the bullpen.

You're not putting Gossam in the bullpen.

You're not putting Barrios in the bullpen.

I mean, the only, the only two guys when you look at that,

that you might envision being in the bullpen or maybe Ponce,

although they say he's a starter and, you know, we need,

and I'm just going to pump the brakes and Cody Ponce a little bit for now.

But Cody Ponce and Eric Lowry,

the only two guys that scream bullpen.

Look, I've said this.

I'm going to say it again.

I understand that there's a, you know,

there are legalities and all this involved.

The J's are going to have, they're going to have at least one starting pitcher in the IEL.

Probably, probably for much of the season.

Obviously, they're going to start out.

She's saying Bieber's going to be in there.

What? They are. They're going to do that on.

They're going to do the same thing the Dodgers did.

We have guys in the IEL.

You're going to be, you're going to,

you're going to keep saying that till it actually happens.

That's what you're going to do.

This is the way they're trying to maneuver this.

This is the way they're trying to keep feelings,

you know, where they want to keep the feelings

and where they want to keep certain guys early in the season.

He came out and said about Trey, you know,

the amount of endings he threw last year,

the amount of pitches that he may not be going to pitch early in the season.

You may need a guy to fill in the blanks.

You don't want to abuse your bullpen.

You saw how that went last year when you had the abuse.

You're not thinning guy and running a little like,

oh, that you are going to have needs to be a little bit better.

More endings out of your starting pitching.

It's going to take shape the way you want it to.

You're going to have, you're going to have dudes.

But the injury thing, you're going to have the brain on that talk.

You're going to have dudes.

You're going to have dudes.

You don't think the dodgers.

Yeah, but why would you say it?

Because everybody knows us what the dodgers were doing.

Yeah, again, the dodgers came out and said that they'd like to compare

every team including the blue jays to the Dodgers.

There's only one Dodgers.

I mean, I hate to break the news to you.

Have you seen their roster?

Have you seen their depth?

Have you seen their minor league system?

So what good, what, so, so, okay.

So in that case, the jays are taking all eight starters.

Not, not, not, not.

I'm going to be a couple of the dudes that will piggyback.

We'll, we'll start in your pan.

You're going to have not silly.

You're going to have it's common sense.

You're going to have forearm soreness all year with guys.

Nudge nutty.

Yeah, it's called piggybacken.

That's what that's called.

Entries all year.

And I would do it.

I would do that.

I take advantage of it.

What they're doing it.

Load management.

This is this.

They're doing it.

Why?

Okay, then why are you arguing?

Well, you got to be careful.

Load management, you know, your division's better.

So you just said they're doing it.

They're going to put them in the eye.

Well, they're doing it because they don't have a choice.

Not because they want to.

Well, you know, there are five guys who get the ball every five days.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And then you go out there and throw 200 innings.

I'm not, you'd rather, you'd rather have that.

I'm not arguing about that.

But I'm just saying, you're not going to be able to keep

when Bieber gets back.

You're not going to be able to keep eight guys happy.

Yeah, you're not.

No, I know.

And you're not going to have to.

You're not going to have to, you're not going to have to read.

You're not going to have to read.

You're not going to have to wait.

It was Bieber's going to be a triple A.

No, what are you going to do?

What are you going to do?

What do you want to get back?

You figure that out.

So you just got a guy?

Well, I'm sure they can trade pieces to get.

I mean, they still have needs.

I mean, when you have too many in one spot,

you go out and trade that spot to get better and other spots.

You're overthinking it.

It's easy to just, so you just fan you fan

of my ill people just to get in breaks because you think you can

because you're that good.

Jeff, like, you're that much better than everybody

in the American leg east.

That you can just give anybody any time amount off

that you want any time of the year.

Bump breaks a metal.

I just think all you're doing is you're all you're doing

is you're missing two starts.

If you put a guy in the aisle, you're missing two starts.

You're making it sound as if you're making it sound as if I'm you're

making it sound as if I'm saying put the guy in the aisle for a month.

I'm I'm sure that it'll work out the way everybody wants it to work out.

But there are some reasons why John's coming out and saying it's a competition

between five guys because it's just very hard

after the first month of the season to make everybody happy.

Keep everybody sharp.

That's just where you're going to use the L.

It's just so hopefully they score enough runs.

They play great defense.

They're bullpen shut down.

They don't have to worry about it.

And then they can do what they want in a rotation.

How's that?

I make you happy.

There's old you on the side.

I'm happy.

I just I just don't think it's that big of a deal

that they use the IL.

I think every team in baseball does.

Did they do it last year?

They didn't have it last year.

They didn't have the IL last year.

They didn't have the same issues last year.

What's their issues this year?

They got eight starters.

Is there issues when they don't?

Really they don't.

They got a 41 year old and a guy can do both.

What are you going to do with the papers on the IL?

Yeah, but you can't carry all eight on 25 men.

Well, you can't.

Okay.

You think you can.

There's ways you can make a say you can figure it out.

Every guy in that pan that starts the season in the pan.

It's not going to be in the pan all year.

Like there's ways you can maneuver around to get the best 13 arms on your team.

So you have now you're putting Max in the bullpen.

No.

Well, yeah, if he's piggybacking,

well, you're just saying you're not going to start the game.

They can start in the pan.

It's not because I'm right.

You're wrong.

You hate that.

You just I don't know what you're upset about them using the IL.

Because you said that thing about the IL all year.

Well, yeah, put a guy in the IL and you keep bringing up the Dodgers.

Like the Dodgers do things and other teams can't do.

That's a period into story.

You're you're missing the whole point though.

The whole point here is.

Yeah, I know what I know what you're saying.

You're saying do it to get the other guy to start

because you'll be better off in the long run.

I know what you're saying.

And I'm also saying I'm also saying that

it does no good to have a guy taken up space in your roster who isn't pitching.

It just doesn't.

Yeah, I think there's no sense to carry Max Sherzer on your roster.

I think that's once every two weeks.

I think that's more about the guys that you have that you're going to count on

when the season means the most that you're trying to get through

the rocky parts of the season, which is the beginning part of it.

Like Trey, like, you know, Kevin Gothman, who's older.

There's a bunch of guys.

A bunch of ways you can figure it out.

Look at your face.

We're going to talk about it.

Well, no, because you just, yeah, you know,

you just you you you still believe in Santa Claus.

That's all I'm saying.

I do.

Still believe it.

Well, no, well, there's the he's not real.

Let's bring in Dale Scott former M.A.

Be on fire.

I'm going to apologize.

I'm going to apologize.

See, Dale.

See Jeff.

Dale Kevin Kevin is just discovered that there's gambling at risk.

I don't like it.

I just told them that, you know,

teams sometimes use the IL for nefarious purposes.

Kevin doesn't think it happens.

Kevin Kevin, I want to hear it.

Kevin thinks everybody's honest.

Everybody's honest.

You buddy.

How are you doing, Dale?

Thanks for taking time out to talk.

I don't want to break this up.

No, no, no, please do.

You'll you'll make the show better.

Please do you as a matter of fact,

this is having an umpire step in as a perfect time right now.

It's a perfect time for an umpire.

Yeah, that's right.

Hey, good to see you again.

Um, so we've obviously ABS has been one of the talking points

of spring training.

And I know it's not going to be an

in effect in the world baseball classic.

I don't believe which I'm kind of sad about because

I kind of like the drama with ABS,

but I'm not an umpire.

And look, I'm sure Dale, I'm sure

guys have seen this coming for a couple of years now, right?

I'm sure they didn't show up in spring training.

I know my god, they're using ABS.

How do umpires prepare for this mentally?

Well, you have to understand a lot of these guys.

I'm not sure the numbers,

but there's many on the staff that have worked this

in AAA.

So um, as well as a lot of the players have been used to it in

AAA. So it's not just like a clean sweep in the big leagues

all the sudden. We just have a whole new thing and no one's been a part of

this. Um, you know, every since I retired, uh, which

nine years ago, which is amazing to me.

Um, that's when the first time I went on social media and everything.

And these guys are getting killed on social media every single day.

And you know, a few years ago, if you would have said, uh,

to the umpires staff about the ABS, I think,

I think the majority would have probably said they didn't want it.

And I think that's the reverse now.

Um, I think that, uh, you know, it's, they're getting pounded,

pounded every night on their strike zone and nissenat and this and that.

And I think that a lot of guys are saying, okay, you know what, uh, we give you,

you know, bring it in and let and let's do it.

It's, you know, mentally you, you as an umpire,

you're just gonna, you're gonna work your game.

Um, you've got to work your game and focus on every pitch and not, uh,

you certainly don't have, just like a regular replay.

You certainly don't have a crutch in the back of your mind saying, oh, well,

if, you know, it's a close play, but it doesn't matter.

They'll go to replay.

I mean, you're still, you know, trying to get pitches right,

you're still trying to get plays right.

But you definitely have this, uh, this backup system.

And let's, let's be honest guys, uh, you know,

umpires are going to miss calls.

And when I was working, you just hoped when you missed one,

it wasn't in a high leverage situation.

It wasn't a, you know, a situational play or situational pitch

that will be, uh, you know, heard round the world.

So to speak, you, you hope it's a miss pitch with nobody on

and in the first hitter on a two two pitch in the second inning or something.

I mean, you know, it's just, but things happen.

So the systems here, uh, I think the, you know, on the umpires side,

I think the, uh, the, the, uh, you know, whatever complaining

or, or more misgivings or, or thoughts about it have passed.

It's here.

And now, now it's, it's what we're doing.

And I think guys are just ready for that and, and to go out and work

their game and see what happens.

Uh, Dale, you know, you, I think you mentioned that there

that no umpire wants to miss calls.

But I would assume whenever you're looking at the strike zone,

it's not side to side and it's not so much the ball down.

It's the ball up, right?

I mean, because the individual hitter is different sizes

that I would assume that's the one little spot

that an umpire would have a little trouble figuring out

whether it's a striker ball.

Again, I get back to that.

You know, nobody wants to stand there and be told the wrong.

Like you just consistently don't want to be told that.

How do you practice that as an umpire going into the season?

You mentioned it.

Bunch of the minor league umpires are used to this.

They're used to sort of, you know, the wear and tear mentally

of just grinding through that part of it.

But if you've been at a big leagues for 10 years

and now this is all of a sudden thrown on you,

how do you practice the top of the zone

to get it right most of the time if not all the time?

Well, you know, each guy works, uh,

their mechanics are maybe a little different.

I know what I did is I I tried to, uh,

every time the pitch came in, get down into my,

what we call the from the A to the B position, uh,

with the top of the top of that hitter's zone at my eye level.

So so basically anything above my eye level is going to be high.

Uh, now that's easier said than done.

Sometimes, right?

A guy's have different stances.

Catchers come in and, and crowd you a little bit on that, uh,

in the slot, that area between the hitter and the catchers,

where we're, we're looking, um, and then of course you throw in the, uh, uh,

you know, shadows or, you know, whatever else might be happening.

But, uh, but, but, but as a rule of thumb,

that's what, you know, that's the, that's what I tried to do.

And that way, uh, it gave me kind of a much better idea

when that pitches in that area.

If it's, if it's above that eye level, so to speak, uh,

then, then, then I have a ball, uh, but some guys are different.

Some guys work, uh, uh, their mechanics a little bit different.

It's, it's, you know, the, uh, the bottom line is not so much your mechanics

as long as you are getting pitches right.

And that's, that's, that's where it, you know, let it comes down.

Yeah.

One of the things I've been wondering about, you know,

as a baseball fan and someone who's been lucky enough to cover a baseball,

I love talking to empires and catchers and hitters

about the conversations you have at home plate, right?

You know, we had Caleb Joseph on talking about,

you know, have an empire or say, where did you, you know, where do you have that?

You know, I had it a little in, you know, I thought it was a strike.

Like the back and forth that goes on, if I'm a hitter and I'm standing at home plate

and I turned to you and I go, where'd you have that?

I mean, the only thing you can say is done matter.

The camera has it there.

Yeah.

Like, I'm wondering, I'm wondering how, how, because that's an important part of the game, right?

And how is it, how do you think that'll be impacted?

Cause if I'm an empire, I could be really, frankly, I don't know how much I can say.

Well, I'll be honest with you.

I've never worked the ABS system.

I've never been on the field for it.

So I don't know from personal experience,

how that would alter my banter, so to speak, with theaters and catchers

and that type of thing.

You know, and the thing that's interesting,

I find it's going to be very interesting as the season progresses,

is the strategies that the teams use with these challenges.

You only get two.

And I remember some hitters, the first two called strikes,

would be the two challenges.

They want to challenge everything.

So it's going to be interesting how that,

how different clubs maybe use that strategy with challenges.

As an empire, if a hitter, you call a strike and he says,

what did you have that?

I've got it on the corner.

Well, I've got it outside.

Okay, we disagree, but you can't just,

well, let's just go to the challenge,

because you're going to be racking those up

and have none left by the end of the first inning.

So it's very interesting how that's going to play out,

not only the conversation between the three there,

the umpire catcher and hitter,

but also just kind of a the mindset of a certain team

and how they're going to use that strategy

with challenges throughout the game.

Well, if you were a veteran umpire,

which obviously you would be if you came back

and started umpiring the ABS early in the game,

you may have just sort of touched on this.

Well, they put you in a bad mood.

You know, just, I don't know, first inning,

you know, a guy's just going through,

he's 0 for 15.

You know, it's a really close call.

You ring him up on a borderline pitch.

He goes, happy tap, you know,

and it works out, whichever way it works out.

Veteran umpire, that put him in a bad mood,

the entire risk of the game, you think?

Uh, I don't, I don't think so.

I mean, you know, what would put me in a bad mood

is if I was, especially early,

it was, you know, challenged a lot

and losing the challenge is that I was wrong.

That would put me in a bad mood.

Uh, and obviously I'd have to make some kind of adjustment

because I'm not, you know, doing what I'm supposed to be doing.

But, you know, guys understand what's happening.

You know, uh, when I was working way back

when we first started the, uh, uh,

this, the, uh, quest tech was the name of it.

The, uh, we were being evaluated

with the same type of system, a, you know, a tracking system.

This was back in 2003, I believe.

And I remember, uh, at the time,

our, our, in the commission's office,

our boss was Sandy Alderson and he said,

guys, you'll, you'll never outrun technology.

You just won't. So what we need to do is, uh,

try to use it in, and, and, and use it in a positive way.

And, uh, and, and hopefully make us better

as we move forward.

Of course, at that time, 20 plus years ago,

I quite frankly didn't foresee this being the way, you know,

this involved in the game.

But, but he's absolutely right as far as that goes.

Technology's there.

People are sitting at home watching on, you know,

80 inch screens with a million diled

bazillion pixels and, and super slow mo and everything else.

So you're not going to outrun it.

So let's set, let's just see if we can use it in a, uh,

in a positive way for, for the game, obviously.

And, and also for the umpires as we move forward.

Uh, Dale, a sinker ball guy is throwing that day.

You're umpiring. Uh, the ball down.

I would assume is the one you're really going to pay attention

to that fine line.

You mentioned the ball up like the way you set up

where your eyes are at.

How do you adjust the ball down to get those calls, right?

Well, you know, the, the, the, uh, the urban myth or,

I know, is, is to get lower.

But that's probably the worst thing you do is,

as an umpire, if you, if you're having, uh,

some issues with the, the pitch around the knee,

the lower part of the zone, um,

really the last thing you want to do is get lower

because your perspective, uh, it, uh,

it gets, uh, skew to where you're not seeing.

You don't have the depth.

You don't have the, um, uh, you know, the, the,

the, the, uh, it alters you in such a way

that everything would look, uh,

you know, everything would look different.

The best way, and, and I, I teach this,

I, I was taught this, I, I've taught this to, uh,

when I do clinics and, and, and things is that,

if you're, if you're, if you're really struggling

with that low pitch, um, look at your,

look at, set up your mechanics and look where you're at.

And, and nine times out of 10,

they're, they're too low.

They're, they're, they're, they're compensating too low.

And that, uh, that makes that low pitch, um,

kind of blow up on you and it doesn't give you the

perspective that you need when you're,

when you're calling pitches, you know, it,

when you, when you see it, for example,

guys on, on the, on the bases,

you don't want to be, especially a force play.

I'm talking more mostly a force play,

but you, you don't want to be too close.

You want to see the entire perspective of what's

happening. The, the catch and then make sure he's

not juggling the ball and all that stuff.

As you're, you know, watching the,

the runner's, uh, foot and, and, and listening

like for a play at first, uh, or whatever.

But so, you know, obviously balls of

strikes are much closer. And so your,

your perspective is, is sometimes it can blow up on you.

So a lot of times when guys are,

a strike that on that low pitch,

yeah, I, I would have them step back,

about a half a step back and then make sure

that their head height is up above,

their chin is about where the catchers,

uh, the top of the catchers head,

because that gives you a much better perspective

as you look into that zone.

And then you just have to have a good timing.

Quite frankly, um, Kevin, if you,

if you call things too quickly, um,

you're going to miss plays and pitches.

So you just give it that extra half a second.

It's not even a half a second,

but it seems like forever to, to, to see the play

and run it through before you, before the,

before you make a call. And, and, and, and, and, you know,

anytime I struggled behind the plate,

no matter what kind of pitch it was,

anytime I struggled,

it's kind of like when you learn how to drive,

you're 10 and two, you're on 10 and two,

10 and two, you get, all of a sudden,

you get some experience and you got your,

you know, your arm out and you're just,

you know, one, you know, and on.

But when, when, when all of a sudden,

you're on a freeway with a, you know,

15 lanes, oh, okay, maybe I'll 10 and two again,

because it's kind of like hectic right now, right?

And it's the same thing with Empire.

We, we are learned our basics, our foundation.

Then we, you know, we may develop a little,

little differences, little nuances.

But if I was struggling, boom,

I went right back to the foundation

and that 10 and two, um,

Empire-wise, to, uh, to call pitches.

And that's, that's what I tell guys when I,

when I'm doing, that's great stuff.

Dale, this, uh, to your mind,

does this change at all?

The impact pitch framing will have in the game.

You know, now, I mean,

catchers are getting paid now because of pitch framing.

Uh, it, it's a big deal.

And I'm just, I, I'm just wondering if in your mind,

ABS plus catchers who've come up being said,

taught, hey, you want to get paid?

Learn how to, uh, 50 ball.

Yeah, learn how to steal the 50, 50 ball.

I mean, uh, do you think that's going to change that aspect at all?

Well, I think it's going to change it a little bit.

I, I'm quite frankly, I'm, I don't, you know,

pitch framing to me has been overblown a little bit.

Um, I think a lot of times if a catcher will just stick

a borderline pitch.

Oh, what, what is a borderline pitch?

It's a pitch that could go either way.

It's borderline.

So instead of trying to fool me or try to, uh,

you know, uh, do something to, to enhance me,

calling a strike, just stick that pitch,

especially that, that thing on the outside,

outside corner, a lot of times they'll,

they'll catch and then they make that little movement,

that little jolt, uh, to, to kind of bring it back in or whatever.

And quite frankly, if you would have stuck it,

you're probably going to get the strike anyway.

But now when you do that, all that tells me is,

oh, you thought it was outside, uh,

and you're trying to bring it in.

So that, of course, that's, that's my personal belief on, on framing.

But, um, I, you know, I, I do think that with this

challenge system, the ABS, um, that could be,

you know, altered a little bit.

That could be a little bit different now,

because, um, you know, just because we have,

we have the, the eye in the sky,

so to speak, the back, everything up,

it'll, you know, like I said earlier,

I think it'll be interesting to see how they do with challenges

and the strategy of that.

It will also be very interesting to see, um,

how catchers adapt or how they change,

or if maybe they won't change at all, uh,

as far as receiving, receiving the pitch.

And so that there's, uh,

there's a few things that are kind of out there with this system.

It's a, it's a new, it's all new to everybody.

I mean, it, we've done it before in spring training last year.

We did it in the all-star game, uh,

like I said, the younger players and umpires

have done it in AAA when they were there.

But everybody now is, is, is at this party, uh,

for this year and it'll be, you know,

very interesting to see how it all plays out,

especially these, these first, uh,

you know, a few weeks of the, of the season.

Dale, really good of you to join us.

Really good insight.

Thanks buddy, my friend.

Thanks for this.

That's great stuff.

Thanks Dale.

Absolutely.

Thanks anytime guys.

Jason.

Dale Scott former MLB empire through chief.

Yeah, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,

what I'm talking today.

I did.

I did. Um, um, um,

it's, it's, it's interesting.

There's just so many, so many parts of the game that,

that are unique to the players on the field.

You know, the fans don't get to hear a lot of that interaction.

And then I do,

there's a self-policing element to every sport, right?

There's a self, every sport.

There's a self-policing element.

Yeah.

And what's a packing order too, you know,

it's like a catcher's been in the league for 12 years and knows how to catch

and knows how to maneuver his way around sort of being the backstop,

having that good conversation with the umpire.

No one, you're catching a dude on the mound who's been around a long time

who's been getting that call for years.

You know, he lives here.

I'm going to need you to give it to me otherwise.

Now, now when you stick it and he don't give it to you and you turn around

and go, Hey, Dale, where'd you have that?

And he's like, dude, you know, where I got that?

Like, let's clean that up.

Like that little back and forth is going to be the intriguing part of it.

And how does teams make up for it?

Like how do teams, you know, I don't want to say stop doing it.

But I mean, you only have two of them.

And if you get them right, you keep getting them.

You know, Dale made an interesting point about,

I'm assuming it's the part of the game.

You know, it's, it's who's on the mound.

You know, brother, I raised the question about early in the game, right?

You know, can you chap in a veteran umpire by, you know,

first inning, three, two, count.

I've been struggling my, you know, what off?

I can't get a ball fatigue.

You call that hell there.

You know, I'm tapping.

Man, and then it makes him look like a, you know,

the one of the worst umpires ever when he's been around.

How's he going to handle that?

How's he going to be going forward?

So there are little conversations back and forth.

And I don't make adjustments like they'll figure it out.

This is mainly for those big time calls, eighth, ninth inning.

You know, the egregious ones that everybody knows, the umpire miss.

Now they, let me ask you this.

It's not such a big deal.

Let me ask you this, when this is finished this year.

Yeah.

Are people going to think less of umpires?

Or are they going to think, you know, actually,

wasn't that, not that bad?

I know that's unfair, but oh yeah.

I mean, what are, what are we looking at so far in spring training, right?

Um, that's not, see those, those don't, don't read.

Cause those are mainly double A umpires.

You know, guy, the big league umpires don't start showing up till, you know,

the last couple of weeks did have, uh, what's this?

Yeah, it's rare.

Cause the where they live in the old season, they live in the old season.

I'll, it's rare.

Like it's, you know, they're starting to filter in.

Cause they, you know, again, it's a long season for the umpire too.

You know, the veteran umpires sort of, you know,

you want to give the younger guys coming up opportunities to catch against them

or umpire against some really good teams and really good pitchers and get their feed that way.

You know, umpires the same way as, as players are.

I don't know the answer to your question.

Well, this is a timely.

We're going to be joined in a few minutes by Jeff pass and Jeff pass and just reporting

that Atlanta Braves designated hitter jerks and profiles facing a 162 games dispension

after testing positive for performance enhancing drug for the second time.

Sources told ESPN, Jeff pass and reporting that.

Um, yeah, you just got busted for that last year.

Two right 82 game 82 guys.

Yeah, second time.

Yeah, I don't feel sorry for you now.

Okay.

Damn, feel sorry for him now.

I don't feel sorry for it.

I, I, I, I don't feel sorry for anybody now.

I mean, you know, and about it, yeah, this isn't new.

Um, yeah.

I mean, every once in a while, people make mistakes.

You can deal with that.

The second time, this close to the second time, you know what, there's no more shouldn't

make mistakes because it's just a phone call away.

Should I be taking this?

It's not that hard.

That's fair.

If I'm making $7 million a year and, and normally it doesn't happen to the guy that's

making the seven million, normally it's the guy that's trying to make the seven minutes still.

Right.

Uh, Jeff pass and joins us next.

It's Blair and Barker on the sports and at radio network and sports and warning.

The following zippercruder radio spot you are about to hear is going to be filled with F words.

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Hey, it's Ben Ennis and I'm Brent Cunning.

We got you covered on all things leafs, raptors, and blue jays every weekday morning,

six to nine.

It's the fan morning show SportsNet 5.9 to the fan and wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, welcome back to Blair and Barker on the SportsNet Radio and African SportsNet.

I don't know why Barker isn't reading this because it would sound so much better in his

drawled in mind.

You make more money and you probably listen to this guy.

He's my favorite.

Well, and you're not going to do the read.

Chris Stabled in Zoll American Roadshow is coming to Roger Stadium in Toronto with special

guests is that top and Alan Stone on Thursday, August 6th. And now a second show, Kevin Barker.

I bet you're going to it on Tuesday, September 1st.

And we've got four pairs of tickets to give away to this second show.

Text the code word broken halos to 5.9590 for your chance to win.

Is that about the Los Angeles Angels?

That's a negative.

Okay, if you don't win with us, tickets are now on sale at Ticketmaster

and contest is opened Ontario residence.

Only standard message and data rates may apply.

Yeah, I will be going to that with my lovely wife.

You should do the read then.

No, I won't be.

Oh, let's bring in passing.

Jeff Passon, ESPN's.

Kind of forward going to that now.

You can buy Chris Stabled in.

How you doing?

So passing, we're all sitting there.

Congratulations, but I'm a little worried.

I've not seen the official news yet that you passed your physical.

Yeah, you know, when you are getting to that age where it's,

you are getting to that age, you reach a point where it's hard for the doctor to find some

of the stuff he needs to look at, you know, in order to pass you on the physical.

So.

I, you know, the gray hairs are starting to come in.

I have, I have, I've died my hair one time in my life.

It was when my, my friend was trying to date a hairdresser and they needed,

they needed, they needed models for a show.

So I got frost, I got frosted tips back in 2004.

It was not good.

It was not good.

But I have, you know, I have managed to keep keep my dark hair through age 45,

but there's, there's, there's some salt coming in with the pepper.

And yeah, I am, I might not have the physical obviously.

No, you'll be fine.

You know, yeah, you'll be fine.

Yeah, there's, there's going to be no deferrals like it's a good deal for the club,

good deal for the player.

They go, everybody's happy.

I'm kidding.

You say congratulations, man.

I'm looking forward to the pod too.

You're the best going to be tremendous.

Yeah, don't be afraid to have a song.

Thank you, boys.

We'll be afraid to have Barker on, but, you know,

I just too much Chef Blair is not a good thing.

Tell me, it, it, it never has been.

Uh, we just had, uh, we just had Dale Scott on.

And of course, we're talking about ABS.

And I asked Barker question and he punted on it because that's what he does.

But I want to ask you about the same question.

And I understand it's purely hypothetical, purely hypothetical.

But at the end of the 2026 season, you're gut feeling on this.

Are we going to come away going?

Well, the umpires pretty much stunk as much as we thought they did.

Or are we going to be saying, you know,

actually not that bad.

I think probably more toward the latter is what we should think.

But I think because there's going to be some confirmation bias going on that we don't

think umpires are very good.

And oh my god, there was this.

There were thousands and thousands of challenges throughout the season.

And I think the sheer numbers are going to make us think that they aren't great.

But the reality if you step back and look at it is they're damn good at their jobs.

And well, you know, the thing that I really like

about what Major League Baseball is doing with the ABS challenges

is that they're showing just how far the ball was off the plate.

And when you see a pitch called for a strike

and it's fractionally away from the zone and and there's that little little gap right there.

And it says 0.1 inch.

It's like if if we're given these guys greased about a tenth of an inch, I mean, come on.

That's like if you if you miss a pitch by six inches, that's embarrassing.

That's bad.

And and you should get called blue carpet for that three inches.

It's it's like the size of a ball, right?

And so these are tiny tiny little margins that we're looking at here.

And I know that I'm more appreciative of empires when I see those numbers and contextualize them

more than we could in the past.

No, listen, I it would be it will be I will be intrigued in seeing if we can get a breakdown

of how close the missed pitches were.

Like if we're talking the majority of missed pitches are 0.1

off, you know, I don't know if that's possible.

I've got to think it might be.

I don't think I think frankly, I think that has to probably, you know,

baseball savants probably going to have something along those lines.

I'd like to think that the transparency there will will be good.

And I think what it's also going to tell us is who really has the kind of I that we think they do

is one sort of I that good, you know, is Alejandro Kirk from a crouch position

as much of a god if this is as we saw last spring, right?

In the in the test for ABS.

Like I think we're going to learn more about players.

And that that to me, like the statistical revolution in baseball is just great for anybody

who wants to understand the game better.

And sometimes it gets complicated, you know, you look at lens above replacement

and it's kind of an opaque formula, how you get to that number.

But with something like this, it's very tangible.

This fall was this far off of a strike zone that has been pre determined.

And what sort of skills we can glean from that?

I don't know yet.

I'm not smart enough, but I think we're going to have a real opportunities,

baseball fans to learn from that.

Any chance I get to learn more about the game, I just love that.

Yeah, they'll get it right in big spots.

That's what it's all about, right?

I mean, you might miss a little bit of the bickering back and forth between,

you know, the really good hitter who thinks he's always right in the umpire,

who thinks he's always right, right?

That'll be sort of the, well, you know, we got video.

So shut up, it'll be that kind of thing.

You know, that'll be that'll be a little bit of, you know,

you'll take a little bit of that away, but other than that,

you're getting the call right.

Want to move on a little to the J's?

What does Matt Scherzer in your mind bring to the blue J's?

Or if anything?

I think Matt Scherzer brings two things.

One is safety and comfort and an understanding that, you know,

we have no idea what Shane Bieber is going to be this season.

We have no idea how Trey Savage is going to progress

in his first full major league season.

We have no idea how Cody Ponds is going to transition back

or, you know, dominating the KBO.

We have no idea what Jose Bereos is going to be

even though he looked pretty dang good last time out.

I think that there's a lot of uncertainty in the J's rotation,

but it's not bad uncertainty.

If you look at Toronto's rotation right now,

I don't think, I don't see any way you come away from it

saying anything other than, wow, that's pretty good.

And it's got a lot of ceiling,

but it's also got a pretty high floor and it's got a few questions, no doubt,

but it's got answers to those questions.

And so I think Matt Scherzer brings that,

but the second thing is just the attitude, you know, he was there.

Like he was an enormous part mentally and spiritually

of their run last season.

And I think Chris Bassett played the same role

and Bassett's gone now.

Scherzer though remains that figure who I think,

yeah, Max talks a lot and Max knows everything.

And it's, I think having a guy in the clubhouse like that

who younger players can turn to and who also is willing to wear,

you know, saying things that others might not be comfortable saying

and where the consequences of those.

I think every clubhouse needs that.

Max Scherzer Abley provides that role.

See, from a purely selfish point of view,

I'm enjoying and I'm hoping this continues.

And at some point I might ask Max.

I think he and Justin Verlander should retire at the same time

so that we can look forward to that Cooper Town,

to that weekend at Cooper Town.

Because that would be, those speeches would be, would be amazing.

And we, you know, we asked Max when we had him on,

do you have any personal sort of personal,

any numbers, right, that you're looking at?

And he said he didn't tell us what they were,

but it's pretty obvious he does, right?

You came away from that.

There's some numbers.

I think he's what?

11 strikeouts away from some,

I mean, there's still some goals he wants to,

he wants to set.

You know what, Jeff, I kind of like that.

Because I don't know how many,

given the way starting pictures are handled.

Now, I don't know how many pictures I'm going to see

who we're going to be able to say.

I'm, I'm aiming for this.

I'm aiming for, I don't know, however many strikeouts.

This, we may be seeing sort of two of the last,

two of the last giants doing this.

Yeah, I, there will be pictures

like Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer.

I, I do actually believe that.

I just think that we need to acknowledge that they are outlawed

and that they have, that they have always been outliers.

Anyone, anyone who's pitching

into his 40s and, and effectively so.

And I understand, you know,

last year Max had a home run problem.

It was not good.

But aside from that, like the, the stuff wasn't

severely degraded.

And it transitioned from a power picture

to a guy who just doesn't have

that like premium top end stuff anymore.

It kills most careers, right?

It's just that that's the sign that you're done.

But Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer are so damn stubborn.

They will never be told that they're done.

They're the ones who get to determine when they're done.

They're the ones with agency in this situation.

And I think that's going to be true because

he will always take a flyer on them,

regardless of how long they pitch,

just because of who they are, because of what they've done,

because of what they bring.

They're always going to have a chance.

So I don't think Max Scherzer is going to be out there at 50.

But if he isn't good to hear this year,

I don't know that he's going to hang him up necessarily.

I don't know that this is swan song.

Jeff, I think he's willing to do things.

The people that I've talked to, he's willing to piggyback.

He's willing to start.

He's willing to, you know, like Jeff's been mentioned.

And I'm not saying he'll do this right at the gate.

But if you need to take a little step back and let somebody else pitch,

he's willing to do whatever it takes to win.

And I think that's sort of the intriguing part of it.

And he don't cost a lot of money.

I think that helps too.

And just give him kudos for all that.

Yeah, it's three, it's three million bucks.

You know what?

If it winds up being 13,

that means you got a damn good year for Max Scherzer.

Yep.

Now that especially is good, especially on a deep rotation.

If Max hits that number, that means Max has been one of the best starting

pitchers you've had, which I mean, it's only,

can only be good.

Jeff, what's the most impressive thing player you've seen in spring training so far?

Is there something you've seen that was just really went, wow.

Yeah, countergripping.

Okay, I kind of thought you might go there.

But he's something else, eh?

Yeah.

I mean, you look at him and it's like a combination of like,

it's Corey Seager, but it's stronger.

It's Cal Ripken.

And I'm not going to say more athletic because Cal Ripken was an all-time free

athlete.

It's Cal Ripken, but Twitchier, if that makes sense.

You know,

countergripping moves like somebody who's like with an Alfonso Soriano type up.

You know, someone is like six to 190 and just shredded.

Countergripping at 64 to 25 moves and operates like that.

And more than anything, it's just the mental end of the game that impressed me.

I think he's just a really good kid.

You know, he's from Mississippi and was ready to go to LSU, get drafted ninth overall,

almost didn't sign.

It was, it was Harry there at the end.

But some teams saw this.

There was a team down in the teens.

It was told that I think like a seven, you know,

seven plus million dollar bonus pool.

And they were ready to give the whole thing to Grip

and if they could float him down there.

Wow.

Because they, yeah, they, they, they saw what we're seeing now,

which is anytime you have a teenager debuting and it's not Alfonso Soriano,

he's probably pretty damn good.

Yeah, yeah, do you think, do you think the pirates give him one of those long-term deals

right out of the game?

Oh, I think they should.

Yeah.

But if I'm counter, if I'm countergripping, I'm not taking it.

Yeah.

I'm not taking it for two reasons.

Reason number one, because I need to see the Pittsburgh Pirates organization

and specifically Bob nutting their own or actually show that he wants to invest in this team.

Not run it, but like it's the inner Flint's operation that it's been

over the last, you know, the entirety of his ownership.

More than that, though, I'm not saying countergripping is going to be the first

billion dollar play in sports.

That's, that's a, it's, it's wild to think that somebody could exceed $765 million.

Anyone is set up to do it.

It's a guy who debuts at 19 and would re-treat you to see a 25.

Yeah.

And that's, that's the calculus right now for the pirates.

You know, they, they made this mistake.

They kept both teams down to start the year.

And he wound up coming up in May,

winning nationally, rookie of the year.

He got a full year of service because of that, but pirates did not get the corresponding

draft pick.

If, even if the pirates don't think that countergripping is going to win rookie of the year this year,

because of Nolan McClaim, because of JJ Weatherholt, because of others,

they can look back at the case of Bobby Whit Jr. when the royal started the year with him.

He did not win rookie of the year, but he came in second, I believe, in the MVP race the next year.

And they got a first round draft pick out of it.

That sort of thing is extremely valuable.

And the kind of thing where when you have opportunity to leverage it, you absolutely have to.

And I'll say this, guys,

I was talking with the GM a few days ago.

We were, you know, countergripping came up because,

you know, we were, we were saying to, I was asking,

the pirates have like the most valuable pitcher and position player in baseball.

And he said, absolutely, yes, countergripping breaks their model.

And right now they have him as they top five or stuff at baseball.

Wow.

Wow.

We'll look forward to seeing him.

Jeff is always, uh, we appreciate your time.

Yeah, congratulations, yeah, congratulations, man.

Yeah, you're awesome.

I know, I know, it's, uh, you know, it's hard.

It is tough.

It's, it's, it's going to, yeah, it's, it's hard to be awesome.

And, uh, you know, I might just be getting too big for the show now.

So we'll see how that's fair.

That's fair.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I figured as much.

Just remember us, remember us when you're, when you're running the world.

What's it?

You know, just every now and then, uh, throw us a crumb.

You know, Blair Blair, I have, I have managed to remember you.

Barker though.

Yeah.

Oh, boy.

I'm hard to forget.

I'll say this.

I will always love Hazel May.

Yeah, it's better.

You can't, you don't.

You gotta earn it.

Thanks, chef.

All right, best man.

Be well.

See you boys.

Jeff passing the SPN's MLB insider.

Oh, boy.

And, uh, yeah, he signed a new contract with the ESPN.

He's going to, they're going to have a pod guy.

I should have a podcast details in front of me, but it'll be fun.

It'll be fun.

Yeah.

I won't be going.

Maybe there.

Oh, you'll be.

No, people ask you to tell us the podcast.

No, they don't.

I just don't want to go on.

Yeah, they don't.

Interesting.

I don't, I don't know if any of you had a chance to see Connor Griffin.

If you've caught any of the Pirates games or anything, I, I just read about him.

I just, I mean, I've seen highlights of an MLB network.

He's.

This is dangerous, but you know, when you look at a guy and you go, uh, that's.

Yeah, he's 19.

I mean, with, you know, the talents jumping off the page, it's everything.

You don't need to break on that.

But when you look at, when you look at him, if you're a Pirates fan,

because of who they have as they're starting pitcher.

Yeah.

And now who's they can have as they're every day guy?

If you want to back the truck up for two dose to sort of sort of, uh, guys,

the going forward of your franchise.

But if anybody could screw it up, it's Pittsburgh.

But you know what I mean?

I do know what you mean.

But he's, he's 19.

He's an everyday guy.

You got to, you know, the, the, in its spring training.

Well, we all, we sometimes will get real excited about spring training.

I'm not telling you he ain't off the charts athletic because he is.

And the Pirates, it's been a long time since I've had something to be excited about.

That plays every day.

And this kid could be it.

So hopefully they don't screw it up.

Hopefully they do the right thing.

You know, that is a beautiful place to get bunches of fans going.

I know a lot of J's fans go down there because of the park.

But yeah, it's a beautiful place.

Like it is.

If they ever get good again, I mean, they'll pack that place and then some

and people we want the tune in.

I'd like to be down there.

I've been lucky to be down there when they've been good.

And it, and it is the question one of my two favorite parts.

Their own ships.

Not very good at all.

No, shipping.

You know, it gets interesting though.

And I should have passed in this.

You know, Connor Griffin is going to be a free agent

under terms of a new CBA.

And I wonder how that impacts how much money a guy's going to get.

If there is the salary cap or

in, in, in, in, yes.

But I mean, you know, I don't know.

That's a plenty of time.

That's a worry about that.

So pretty.

There's a lot going on between the years conversation there.

Yeah.

Yeah, but he's 19, you know,

the car before horse kind of thing.

Yeah, he got time.

Let's see it play out first.

It's a really good play.

That is it for us today.

A reminder that on the TV side,

you can catch team Canada against the blue jays.

In Dunedin, it is Team Canada's warm-up game

before the World Baseball Classic,

Hazel May and Shiden Beatty are with Team Canada.

They will be in Puerto Rico.

Where Canada begins to pull play in a couple of days.

So that's it for us.

Thank you for joining us.

Great day.

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