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To the Tova Noelle interview with the OIG inspectors.
1:03
Question, all right, we're just going to talk
1:05
a little bit about counts and rounds.
1:07
According to you, what is a sell count
1:10
and you have it in front of you
1:11
if you need to refer to the policy,
1:13
but what is your understanding of a sell count?
1:16
Or sorry, an inmate count.
1:19
Noelle, you count every inmate to make sure
1:23
Question to make sure that they're alive
1:26
Noelle, yes, question, all right.
1:28
And can you just explain the process?
1:30
Noelle, the first officer goes down and counts
1:34
and then the second officer goes down and counts
1:36
and then we confirm the numbers.
1:39
Question, okay, and prior to confirming the numbers,
1:42
do you tell the other officer how many you counted?
1:45
Noelle, no, question, all right.
1:47
So you get your number, then another officer goes down,
1:51
Noelle, and when they come back, question
1:55
and is that tier by tier or do you,
1:58
she got some off, yes, tier by tier,
2:00
question, tier by tier.
2:01
Just one person stands outside
2:03
while the other person goes down range
2:05
and counts the inmates.
2:06
Noelle, yeah, question.
2:08
So do you have to like see the person moving?
2:11
What do you need to do when you're doing the count?
2:14
Noelle, you need to see the prisoner move,
2:16
redacted, question, do you have to like talk to them,
2:20
make sure they're responsive or anything like that?
2:22
Noelle, or you could see them breathing.
2:24
Question, just as long as you see some life, okay?
2:28
So what are the requirements in the shoe
2:30
on how often is a count conducted for counts?
2:34
Noelle, count is at four, I mean it's been a long time,
2:37
I really don't remember, but I think four, 10, 12, 3, and 5.
2:42
Question, okay, so 4 p.m, 10 p.m, 12 a.m, 3 a.m,
2:47
and 5 a.m, Noelle, yeah.
2:49
Question, and is this every day or is it Monday through Friday,
2:53
D&O, Noelle every day?
2:55
Question every day, and you're just making sure
2:59
You don't actually have to speak to them.
3:01
Noelle, no, you don't.
3:03
Question, okay, and what's the difference, what's around?
3:06
Noelle, I mean the round, you're walking down the tier,
3:10
basically checking to see if they're okay,
3:12
but you're not counting, you're just checking to make sure.
3:15
Question, so you're doing the same thing,
3:18
you're just counting the inmates, all right?
3:21
So you're making sure that they're okay and they're alive.
3:24
Noelle, yeah, like you don't need a number, question,
3:28
but one CEO goes down, checks, and then does the other one,
3:31
or does there only need to be one?
3:34
Noelle, well it's one.
3:35
Question, so both don't need to actually do that?
3:38
Noelle, no, question, all right.
3:40
So just one CEO goes down, does the other CEO have to remain
3:44
at the door to make sure the CEO is okay?
3:49
Question, okay, so is that the difference then?
3:51
Noelle, between the counts and the rounds, yeah.
3:54
Question, only one CEO is required,
3:56
that's for your understanding of policy?
4:00
Question, okay, and during the rounds,
4:02
do you have to speak with the inmates?
4:04
Noelle, you don't have to, question, no,
4:07
but on both instances, both CEOs have to be present.
4:10
You're just saying with rounds,
4:11
only one CEO actually needs to go down.
4:14
Noelle, go down range, yeah.
4:16
Question, you said the purpose is to make sure
4:19
that they're okay and they're alive.
4:22
Question, and are they, are the counts and the rounds
4:28
Question, and do you have to sign documents
4:31
when you conduct counts and rounds?
4:35
Now if you and another officer,
4:38
like on the case of when you work 12 a.m. to 8 a.m.,
4:42
if you and another officer are the only ones assigned
4:45
to the shoe, are you both just responsible
4:48
for documenting the round sheets and the count slips?
4:51
So if you're the one documenting all the rounds
4:54
for the 30 minute rounds,
4:55
is your documentation?
4:57
Does that also carry weight for the other person?
5:01
Are you signing for both?
5:03
Noelle, I don't think so
5:05
because I just have my signature.
5:07
Question, so you would take responsibility
5:09
for the cell count rather than saying
5:11
that you're both responsible?
5:13
Noelle, well the rounds and the counts
5:16
have to be done with two people.
5:18
Question, let me just show you,
5:20
so you know what I'm talking about.
5:22
I'm just going to show you from August 9th and 10th,
5:25
the cell counts and the rounds
5:27
so that there's no misunderstanding.
5:31
So this first one's going to be the 8.9 2019
5:35
for the 30 minute check sheet.
5:37
And the other one is going to be 8.10 2019.
5:41
Can you just let me know if you see your handwriting
5:43
and initials on these two documents?
5:47
Question, okay, and I guess we'll first discuss August 9th.
5:51
Where do you see it?
5:52
And from what time to what time?
5:54
Noelle from 4 to 11 30?
5:56
Question, and are you ever one of them?
6:00
Question, okay, so every 30 minutes,
6:02
you have your initials and you wrote those.
6:04
That's actually your initials on that one?
6:07
Question, and what about on August 10th, 2019?
6:13
Question, okay, so what I'm asking here
6:16
is by placing those initials,
6:18
is that now fall on you?
6:20
Or if you're only two people in there,
6:22
like on August 10th,
6:23
are you basically signing for both people?
6:26
Or do you think you're only signing for yourself?
6:29
They're avowing what the round was conducted.
6:32
Noelle, I don't know.
6:35
Noelle, I guess like you're trying to say
6:38
if the rounds have to be conducted with two people.
6:41
And then I sign, it would be, I don't know.
6:44
But you did sign and certify that they were conducted?
6:51
And what do you do with the rounds, the sheets?
6:54
How are those maintained?
6:55
Noelle, well, I usually fill it out
6:57
like prior in hopes to conduct the round.
7:00
Like when I work in the shoe,
7:01
I never actually done the round every 30 minutes.
7:04
Like when you go down to give out toilet paper,
7:06
that's counted as a round.
7:08
To pick up trays, it's counted as a round.
7:11
To give out food, that's counted as a round.
7:15
But and then you fill it out either after or before.
7:19
You're not sitting like every 30 minutes,
7:20
like filling it out.
7:23
And you said you did it a lot of times prior
7:27
to actually conducting the round.
7:29
Question, all right.
7:31
And what the rounds, do you call anybody
7:33
with that information?
7:36
Question, what's done with the sheet?
7:38
Is it at the end of the shift, something done with it?
7:41
Are they logged into the BOP database at all?
7:44
What happens with those sheets?
7:46
Noelle, I don't know, because it's left on the table.
7:49
I don't know what they do with them.
7:52
Question, so as far as you know, you just fill it out
7:55
and you leave it there?
7:58
You don't ever provide it to anyone?
8:00
Question, and you don't ever go into any BOP database
8:04
and enter those rounds?
8:06
Question, do you know if someone else does?
8:09
Noelle, I don't know.
8:10
Question, you don't know, okay.
8:12
What about the counts?
8:13
Do you call people after the counts?
8:15
Noelle, yes, control.
8:17
Question, you call control?
8:20
Question, and do you recall on August 9th
8:22
or August 10th, you called?
8:24
Did you call anyone with those numbers?
8:28
And do you remember which counts you called?
8:31
Noelle, not or remember which?
8:33
Question, and you know you did some of them,
8:37
you just don't remember specifically which ones?
8:42
And do you remember speaking with lieutenants
8:45
when you were there or with regular officers assigned
8:48
to the control center?
8:49
Noelle, I don't remember who I spoke to.
8:52
Question, you don't remember.
8:54
Well, with the count slips, you said,
8:56
you just leave those round slips on the table.
9:01
when you do the count slips,
9:03
what do you do with those slips?
9:05
Noelle, we did the same thing.
9:07
We filled them out before.
9:09
Question, before you actually conduct the counts
9:12
before you filled them out.
9:14
Question, so before you actually even getting the number,
9:18
you fill out the number?
9:19
Noelle, because we know the number.
9:21
Question, okay, so do you then call somebody with the number?
9:27
Question, what do you call?
9:33
And you provide them with the number
9:35
that you wrote on that document?
9:38
Question, sorry we did this.
9:40
My question was supposed to be,
9:42
what do you do with the physical pieces of paper?
9:45
Noelle, stick it in the door and then internal takes it.
9:49
Question, okay, so no one actually comes in.
9:52
To the shoe, you stick it in the door?
9:54
Noelle, the outer door.
9:56
Question, so you open up the interior, the inner door,
9:59
and then you go to the outer door.
10:02
Noelle, then stick it in there.
10:03
Question, there's like a special slot for it.
10:06
Noelle, not a slot.
10:08
It's just between the door.
10:09
Question, okay, internal never comes in though.
10:12
Noelle, they didn't that day.
10:14
I don't know if they ever come in, but they didn't that day.
10:17
Question, okay, on August 9th, 2019,
10:20
you said you filled all that out.
10:22
What rounds did you conduct during your shift
10:24
on August 9th, 2019?
10:27
Noelle, well that's hard for me to tell
10:30
because I didn't conduct it every 30 minutes.
10:32
It was give out food, pick up the trays,
10:35
give out toilet paper, go down.
10:37
So those were the rounds that I conducted.
10:40
Question, so you were conducting around
10:42
as just doing something with an inmate?
10:45
Noelle, yeah, because I actually physically walked.
10:48
Question, every tier, all six?
10:53
Question, are there six tiers in the shoe?
10:58
Two floors, two levels.
11:00
Noelle, yeah, yeah.
11:02
Question, so when you do these rounds,
11:04
when you would go down range and handle an inmate
11:07
or give something to an inmate,
11:10
you would also do all six?
11:13
Question, all right, so about how often
11:16
let's ask it a different way
11:17
about how many of those didn't you do on August 9th?
11:21
Noelle, I don't know.
11:22
I can't give a number of how much I didn't do.
11:25
Question are some of those that were documented,
11:28
were they not done?
11:31
Question, all right.
11:32
So you didn't do some of them.
11:35
You just don't know which ones?
11:38
Question, all right.
11:40
Okay, and now Mr. Foy interjects.
11:42
Let me just say to help clarify the times that you wrote down.
11:47
Noelle, okay, Foy, right.
11:49
Foy, when did you write the times down?
11:52
Noelle before, Foy, all right.
11:54
So when did around to take toilet paper,
11:57
did you change the time to reflect that particular round?
12:00
Did you do anything with the paperwork
12:02
to change the actual time?
12:05
Question, and why did you do that?
12:07
Is it because of the requirement?
12:10
Noelle, why did I fill?
12:13
Why did you fill these ahead of time?
12:15
Were you just trying to stay on top
12:16
of what the actual requirement was
12:18
to conduct a 30 minute round?
12:20
Noelle, I mean, I don't know why I did it.
12:23
I just always did it that way.
12:24
Question did someone train you to do it that way?
12:27
Noelle, I mean, I've seen it done that way before.
12:30
And three people that actually do it as they do it.
12:33
It's been done all three different ways.
12:35
Question, some do it before, some do it during
12:39
and some do it after.
12:42
And just this instance, you did it all before?
12:47
Question, all right.
12:47
And some, at least some of them,
12:49
would you say the majority were not done or were done?
12:53
Noelle, on the ninth, majority was done.
12:55
Question, you believe the majority.
12:58
Now, I know we're doing estimates
13:00
because you don't know exactly.
13:01
You think like 51%.
13:04
Noelle, I don't know.
13:05
Question, you don't know.
13:07
Question, all right.
13:08
But again, for the ones that you did do,
13:10
you're not just going down the tier.
13:14
Question, you're going down all six tiers.
13:17
Noelle, I'm doing all.
13:21
Question, this is the under oath thing.
13:24
We've got to make sure because the video is
13:26
and all that kind of stuff.
13:29
Question, that's your understanding?
13:33
Question, all right.
13:34
That you're actually checking every door?
13:38
And when you go give that one person toilet paper
13:40
or whatever, you're actually looking
13:42
at all the different doors.
13:44
Mr. Foy, can we take a break real quick?
13:47
Because I need to take a break.
13:49
Question, absolutely.
13:51
All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here.
13:53
And in the next episode dealing with the topic,
13:55
we're going to pick up where we left off.
13:58
All the information that goes with this episode
14:00
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Everyone wonders how I stay chill while the hours crawl by.
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Sponsored by Chamba Casino.
14:34
Every day the world gets a little weirder
14:37
and a lot more awesome.
14:39
Cool stuff daily takes a look at everything
14:41
from mining in space to the latest in the fight against cancer
14:45
to how AI is basically changing everything.
14:49
It's all the cool stuff you didn't know you needed to know.
14:53
Join us for cool stuff daily
14:54
as we take a quick look at science, tech,
14:57
and the wait, what stories that make you sound
15:00
way smarter at dinner.
15:02
Subscribe to cool stuff daily now
15:04
because the future's happening fast
15:06
and it's way too fun to miss.