INTERVIEW | Make Money by Becoming a More Powerful Communicator with Gina London

0:00propel fitness water with gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you propel with gatorade electrolytes? You're listening to the Travis Makes Money Podcast. What is going on everybody welcome back to the Travis Makes Money Podcast where it's our mission to help you make more money on this episode of the show. I have a new friend, Gina London, from farmland Indiana to boardrooms across the world. Gina has spent her career helping people find their voice. She's a founder and CEO of Language of Leadership. Limited, Gina is an American entrepreneur based out in Ireland, tool, US Irish citizen, and a trusted advisor to leaders across nearly 60 different countries. A former CNN correspondent and Emmy-winning journalist, she now coaches executives, government leaders, and high performing teams on communication leadership and influence. She's an adjunct professor at the University College Corp. A columnist for the Irish Independent and author of the new book Amplify You,

1:01How to Power Up Your Connections in an AI world. Gina, thank you so much for taking time to join me. Well, it was an absolute pleasure and that was quite the introduction. Thanks Travis. Yeah, of course. If the thing is when you've done as much as you've done, the intro just keeps getting longer and longer and longer. So yeah, I've got to congrats on all the success and appreciate taking the time. In the new book, that's our recently, let's jump into that really quick. It's an amplify you. Tell me a little bit about your reasoning behind this. I know I'm getting a book out into the world. There's a lot like getting a baby out into the world. So I know it's a lot of work and it's a lot of research. It's a lot of energy. So why this topic, why this book, why now? No, thanks. I think it's helpful for anybody anywhere who's wanting to make more money for one, since that's the podcast. But do any kind of relationship, any kind of business promotion, any kind of startup business opportunity, you got to be able to communicate. You can use AI and it has become prolific at this point.

2:01For your written stuff, your business plan, your marketing, you use it for a lot of things, but at least now, cannot replace you, human, human face to face, even virtual. Unless you're doing some crazy AI deep fake slop, but I hope you are not. But in all seriousness, what I decided, I've been doing this in this corporate capacity for so long that I thought, let's put it together in a cookbook, so to speak, so that anybody can take it on and say, how do I power up my voice? How do I power up my word selection? How do I think more strategically about who my audience is? Maybe I'm going to put that into a prompt, but I've got to be able to own it. So there's a voice section called, say it, there's a first impression, body language and grooming, and wardrobe section called, look it, and then the final section integrates for lots of different opportunities in case studies called, be it. And last bit on the book, I'm really excited about, is a friend of mine said, how are you going to do a book about communications

3:01because it's a book and how are people going to see what you are talking about? So there's a lot of QR codes in there, where you can click and actually go to a video of me demonstrating the technique, helping you power up, helping you be more connecting to achieve those goals. Yeah, I love that. Demonstration is a lot of times really, really helpful. And then this topic, I think, is one that you and I share. There's one of the ones I was excited about doing just because... So my other show is called, Travis McSpreand. And so we talk about connection and the London epidemic and friendship and stuff like that. And yeah, it's my argument, my thought as well, that in a world that's powered by AI, the people who rise to the top or the people who remember what it's like to connect to other human beings. Because ultimately, even if AI can... Even if there's a new tool that comes out, even if there's this new company that pops up with this new thing, the bottom line is, we have tens of thousands of years of biology hardwired into our brains, that we can't grow out of in a single generation

4:05just because AI exists. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, even if we're doing this weird, deep-fake BS version of connection, it's not going to actually provide the same stimulus to the brain as human to human connection going to provide. 100% and that is a big thread throughout the book and the importance of saying, look, if you are going to use AI for the other things I mentioned, it is even more important because it might be replacing some of those technical skills that are going to help you with your business or help you with whatever you're trying to do in your own company that you're working for or leading. But it isn't going to replace you and importance about making relationships. It's sometimes people think, oh, that's just for extroversal. I don't like to do that. I want to be proactive. But there's a lot of research in there too about why being proactive and learning these skills helps you actually then be more comfortable, more confident, and get those dopamine rewards from making those connections. And it's all, of course, in the positive angle of this.

5:07We're not trying to be manipulative or exploitative or anything like that. We are trying to make genuine, trust-built human connections. And some people don't know how to do it. And so I want to give them tools so that they can feel that it's not just for those extroverts. That anybody can learn some of these things. And that's why I call it amplify you because it takes who you are already. You already have a voice and helps you learn how to bolt on and have its tactics that will make you feel more comfortable so you can make those connections and really reinforce and uplift. The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs so that you can focus on what you do best and that experts handle the rest. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise so you can fill critical skill gaps, launch projects faster, and skill support up or down without committing to full-time headcount. I don't know how many times I've used upwork in the last, I don't know,

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8:11Your life. Yeah, I love when I see journalists like you write books because I know that you know how to write front and not even just the perspective of like how to put pen to paper, but also the volume of research that typically goes into a project from a journalist from you know versus like you know a random thought leader online, not to talk trash about anybody else's books, but I just find that there's more I guess tangible value when I read something from somebody who truly understands what it's like to do the research required to put a book out into the to the universe. Can you appreciate that process? Yeah, please. Yeah, I can tell you that it was a difficult one for me in some respects because I do write as you mentioned a weekly column and that's only 900 words and I love doing it. I get to interview and spotlight other people that their leadership journeys and those types of things. But when you said to any of you about like 60, 70,000 words that you're going to be writing and it needs to have an arc and it needs to have a flow. The journalist in me was self editing the whole time.

9:14Yeah. So I'll be writing something and the little voice in my head was going, can you second source that? What's your citation? Where do you have that? And you don't want to make it so clunky that it is an academic journal that nobody wants to get through. So to say, no, no, no, this is okay. Can you validate that? Is that your really your opinion or is that a fact you need to cite the fact like, oh, I'm so grateful that I was able to get through it. I did have some wonderful other eyes that looked at it who'd also written books and the leadership in the thinking area and they were able to give me their endorsement. For example, people might be familiar with Liz Weisman. She wrote one of the seminal books around leadership called multipliers. And I had met her through a friend a couple of times informally and I asked her, would you take a look at the manuscript and possibly give me an endorsement? And I got other endorsements from other terrific people, but she was the toughest nut to crack because she said, and I appreciate this in retrospect because she is an academic in the researcher. And she said, give it to me for a month.

10:15And I will let you know whether or not I will give you an endorsement. So to me, that was. Yeah. Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. For the meeting potatoes here, Sure. I want to talk a little bit about first impressions. Is it as important as people think that it is, is it less important? Is it overrated underrated? How can we get better in first impressions? I think it's important. I don't think it's a make or break because you can certainly rebuild from a faulty first impression. If you have a second chance, if you're going for a first round interview or if you're an entrepreneur and you're going for that first round of funding, they're not going to ask to see you again if you really fall on your face. Yeah. And I have done IPO coaching for the financial stories that companies are trying to tell before they go out for an IPO. And I get into the Navy Gritty of who's going to walk in first, who's going to introduce this topic, who's going to introduce topic, what are you all going to wear? So you look cohesive, but also are yourselves.

11:15But feel comfortable, but also put a particular look on yourself if you're going to go to a bank in London versus a bank in Chicago. Those kinds of things might seem like overthinking, but I'd rather think it, justify it, solidify it, turn that stone back over so you don't have to think about it anymore. So first impressions absolutely do matter. And a lot of people don't have enough of the best practices so that they can suit up, prepare, think strategically, lead with a strong intro and with a strong conclusion. And that might sink the whole deal. Yeah. What are some of the ingredients that make a good first impression? Well, I have a three-letter acronym for the strategy piece, which I call audience intent message. So make your aim. Research who your audience is. Are you meeting them for the first time? If so, that's a different playing field. And then if you've known them for quite some time. If you don't know them and you can do your research

12:16and LinkedIn or other people that might know them, then that's going to give you some informative information about their style of communications. Their preference for what should lead. Is there going to be small talk? Is there not going to be small talk? This stuff, again, helps make you make that first impression and present yourself with the credibility that you need, possibly the warp that you also need for another party and getting into the pictures in their head as much as you can, also might give you some ideas around how you're going to restructure what might have been the way you're going to roll out your pitch or your interview process. All of that plan stuff is important. Keep in mind who they are. Their hope streams and fears. So you can reassure around the fears, by the way, not pray on them. And then the intent piece, I, is not just to inform or just think to the facts are going to land, but how can you actually motivate them to some action? Then craft that message in a way that is best for them. Again, is it a London person? Is it a Chicago person?

13:17Is it a senior senior leader? Is it that barista that you're just coming into to get a new match or something? All of that outward focus can help you make some real important decisions. So strategy and then the structure piece, which you're going to make some informed decisions around how you're going to structure. Don't back into a lot of chronology if you can help it. Get that ask up at the top and then have a compelling story. But I spent a lot of time on the delivery piece because that communication experience that you can create and you can take more control of it is really essential. What are the words you choose? What's the voice that you bring? Do you have vocal variety? Do you sound energetic when the words are energetic? Do you sound urgent when the words are urgent? Do you have a face that looks like it's carrying about the words that you're saying? A lot of people when they focus really hard on a presentation or some big important high stakes pitch, they're so focused on the content

14:17that everything else shuts down. And I use a little imagery of a three-legged stool. And if you've got the words strong, but you don't have the other two legs of the voice in the body, that stool is not going to stand up and you're good at tumble and it's not going to be a good experience. So I help people in packet, examine it, and repack it with intentionality. What do you see as overrated in the communication sphere? Like part of the conversation or part of the style or something that you often see people are working on that in your mind you're like you're spending your time focusing on the wrong things here. Okay, well there's one thing that's really bothering me these days and I think if anybody's been doom scrolling or looking at a YouTube sort of shorts lately, you're going to get these ads that come up that are completely AI-generated from these AI people that say, I don't say, never ever say, how are you, never ever say, how was your week? I've seen those. And I'm like, oh my god, I'm not 24, I'm 47. No, you're not, you're an AI-generated nothing.

15:19So the point of those is, banalities in common pleasantries are common pleasantries for a reason. I am not going to encourage anyone to be so superscripted that it sounds weird or that it sounds artificial. I'm not going to say hello to you with my name. I'm not going to ask you how you are. So now I'm going to craft this really weird, clunky thing that doesn't sound at all like me. Right. And expect that other person to have a connection with me. So use AI to give you some structure possibly but interrogate it with you. If it doesn't feel like you, if it doesn't sound like you and you try to speak it, it's not going to make that connection. So I would, caveat, I'm tour big, beware of those kinds of, you must do this, you must always do this. And even though I have some best practices in my book, situational awareness, who's the audience, all that stuff is key to making informed decisions. Yeah, just remember that you are a human

16:21and you're talking to another human. You know, if it's this over-scripted BS, then it just sounds like you're the AI in that context. And I want to touch on the small talk thing because I think that's something. So the show before Travis makes money, this show used to be called Build Your Network. And we talked for like 800 episodes about like networking, building professional relationships and communication and things to say and whatever. And when I first got started, people would push back against the idea of small talk and talk about how much they hated small talk. And at first I was like, yeah, me too. I hate small talk, it's annoying. I was just get to the meat potatoes. And then the more I studied it, the more I learned about humans, the more I actually talked and connected to people. The more I was like, small talk, a small talk for a reason. You can't just be like, oh, I'm not good at that. And then just not do it. It's part of who we are. It's the introduction. It builds some form of like a commonality or a neural connection with another person to allow you to be able to go deeper. And if you skip all of that to go straight to the deep stuff,

17:22that person's probably just going to feel violated more than anything else. Exactly. There was no foreplay. Right. Exactly. But it all, it all seriousness though. If you do think about your, whoever you're talking with, you want to be trying to match their, their style. If it is this top level executive or this big bank CEO and they are no, no messing around, let's get to the chase. Come because you've done your research and you've asked around. Or you're going to pick it up in that first handshake. Yeah. Then I want you to have the flexibility of enough tools in the old toolkit here to make that switch of putting those small talk pleasantries aside. But most people, I mean, I met Bill Ford Jr. years ago. I was doing presentation with him. I was actually doing an interview with him. And he was, he'd come to Ireland where I live full time now, as you mentioned. And he had chairman of the Ford Motor Organization and the legacy of his father and all of this.

18:24And you could be really intimidated. But I happened to have asked around and knew that he was coming with his wife and his two teenage, just in college sun. So the first thing I asked him was, so did the boys go out to one of the pubs last night? Because we're in Ireland and there is a bit of a pub culture here. And he went off about how they came home late and this and that. And suddenly he wasn't this big executive chairman. He was a dad. There's a dad. Yeah. Suns that weren't behaving. So we connected. So what I would say on small talk is, do your research, but cultivate your curiosity. Don't let your initial, I don't like small talk. Be a stop sign to your growth or your connections. The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. Upwork lets you build a team of highly skilled specialists for every function your business needs so that you can focus on what you do best and that experts handle the rest. Upwork gives your business fast access to highly skilled specialists with deep expertise so you can fill critical skill gaps,

19:25launch projects faster, and skill support up or down without committing to full-time headcount. I don't know how many times I've used Upwork in the last, I don't know, call it decades since I've started doing stuff online. But it is many, many, many, many times. And then with Business Plus, you can access the top 1% of talent on Upwork as well. AI-powered shortlisting delivers a curated shortlist of top freelancers match to your goals and under six hours. So there's no endless searching required. It also cuts down operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments in one place so you can spend more time running the business. With over 170,000 freelancers holding five star ratings you can hire with the confidence that comes from hiring someone with a verified track record. It's free to sign up and posting a job is easy. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's UPWORK.com. Upwork.com.

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21:33Go to chime.com slash disclosures for details. And if you can envision when you are small talking, if you can envision your words like a tennis ball in a tennis match, I want you to imagine that you want to get that ball over to their court more than it's sitting in your court. So they say a story, you ask a follow-up question, oh, what happened next or tell me more, how would that make you feel? Not scripty, not AI weird, but if you're really trying to think about what can I ask them next or what does that make me think of? Not my story that's cooler because you don't want to get that ball in your court. This is an adage, but it is important to be more interested than it is to try to be interesting. Yeah, being more interested in what they have to say rather than trying to vomit at an elevator pitch. Yeah, because I think people just underestimate people's, or overestimate people's memory, whereas they think that they're going to wow them

22:35with this polished speech or pitch. When in reality, people are much more likely to remember how they feel after the conversation than anything that you said during the conversation. And if you talk about them and make them feel great and make them feel heard and seen and respected and all of the things that all humans crave, then they're going to leave that interaction being like, I don't remember exactly what we talked about, but I remember a positive association with that person's face. You know what I mean? That's pretty much all I remember. Absolutely. And you can think, you can take cues from that person. If they have a really, I don't know, unique pair of shoes or they have an interesting pair of socks, or not not talking in your IPO pitch, obviously, but I'm talking in a networking situation where you're meeting people for the first time in a business context. And we obviously have to watch our words and not be going, oh, that's sweat or if it's you're really nicely. Like, you know, he wise people. But if there's a woman in a sweater and she's got a really cool pin, I don't care what gender you are, you can go,

23:35wow, is there a story behind that really interesting looking pin? Those kinds of things start to evoke different interactions and just, oh, tell me what brings you here. I don't mind that one either, but you might want to be thinking about some other questions to ask and you elevate your external observer mindset about, oh, wow, that looks like an early ring or that one. I was in a meeting one time where one of the, like, a networking sort of event, conference in this famous guy, but I won't say his name, but he had two watches. And it just struck me as, like, no one is mentioning that. And I said, hey, by the way, is there a story on both the watches? And yeah, there was one that was given, been given to him by his wife, and one had been given to him by his father who died years ago and he decided to keep them both. And I also interviewed, I was a facilitator for a fireside chat with the founder and CEO of BlackRock, Larry Fink. And I do not have the depth of financial understanding

24:36that this man has, obviously, with $11 trillion in asset or whatever it is. But I did notice he had these beautiful and namel ladybug cufflinks. And so I asked him around his myriad of handlers, what's the story with those cufflinks? And they were given to him by one of his grandchildren. So these are the, and he might not remember that I asked him that, but I certainly remember that story. And it changed the dynamic of our conversations as we went out to that conference. That was pretty cool. You said it in human history. I didn't ask it on stage. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, there's context absolutely matters. But what you did is just humanize somebody who's, you know, this distant far off figure that people can look at it. That people can look at it as like a robot. You turn them into a grandpa. You know what I mean? Like, and remind him of those, those human elements before you jump into conversation. It's probably a little bit more effective from that point.

25:36And I want to encourage anybody out there who's listening. It doesn't matter if you identify yourself as an introvert or wherever you are in your business career or your entrepreneurial endeavors. Most people respond to this. And you can cultivate this stuff. It is a developable skill. I hope it's not a manipulative skill. If you've got a mutually beneficial outcome in mind, it shouldn't be. But the same way you didn't learn whatever your business trade or your services or product is when you were a little baby. You don't know this stuff right away. And I've had people say over the years, oh, well, you're such a natural or oh, I learned a lot of this through the record is a 24 hour news. And now I've translated it and I've been to 60 different countries and worked with all these different cultures and different religions and different levels of leadership. And the threads are the same. It's not an American approach. It's a human approach. And it's really important to make that distinction. Yeah, I appreciate you for bringing that to light as well.

26:36The volume of hours that you put it into doing this. And that it is a skill that none of us just start. Maybe some people have a natural inclination and be better at this than others, of course. Maybe more charismatic out of the womb or whatever. But it's a skill that anybody can learn. And I would argue that introverts are actually better at this naturally as well. So don't discount yourself if you're viewing yourself as an introvert. I think that those some of the best networkers I know are the most well-connected people I know are all introverts, almost every single one of them. And my experience is that extroverts, when we talk about that tennis ball analogy, art is clued in as how long that tennis ball is over in their court and not the other person's court, they don't prepare usually their presentations because they're good at winging it. I had a guy in Singapore years ago who was pushing back on the preparation piece of presentation. Not to have things memorized, but to have a strong flow and know you're in and know you're out. And he says, well, I never prepare. I just get up and I just start talking.

27:36And like four of the different people that were in that team that were other managers, other country managers in the region said, yeah, we never know what your point is. Like, yeah, how's that working out for you? Like, why do you think genius here now? Yeah. Thank you for telling me what I was probably going to say. But they know it experientially, which is all the proof you need. Right. Gina, I appreciate you taking the time. The book is Amplify You for those who are listening. Please go pick a copy of Gina's new book. Gina, appreciate you taking the time. Where else can people go to connect with you further? Oh, thanks. You can go to wherever your social media, of course. I'm active on Instagram, LinkedIn, naturally B2B, and over in TikTok as well. But I really would love for you to find me over on GinaLondon.com. And if you've got any questions you can ask me something anywhere there. And I'll happily personally respond. Perfect. Thank you so much. Gina, I appreciate you. Everybody else doing in Remember Money only solves your money problems. But it's usually easier to solve the rest of your problems with money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the TravisMakesMoney podcast.

28:36Thanks for tuning in. Catch you guys next time. Peace. For a limited time, you can get a big Mac meal for just $8. That's a burger, fries, and a drink. They don't call it an extra-value meal for nothing. Get a big Mac meal only at McDonald's. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.