INTERVIEW | Make Money by Changing Your Beliefs, feat. Nir Eyal

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just go to GoHighLevel.com slash Travis.

Hey, what's going everybody?

Welcome back to the Travis Makes Money Podcast.

What's our mission to help you make more money today on the show?

I'm talking to an old friend of mine, someone who I've reconnected with.

Recently, near IEL, near is a globally recognized authority on behavior change and human potential.

His frameworks have empowered millions to build better habits,

enhanced focus, and unlock greater agency in their lives and work.

A former lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business,

near has collaborated with leaders and organizations

worldwide to boost performance through behavior design.

He's also the author of the International Best Sellers Hooked and Indistractable,

which have sold over 1 million copies in more than 30 languages now, which is insane.

His books have earned numerous accolades and have been celebrated by Amazon

and Goodreads as among the best in business and personal development.

And he's also founded and sold multiple companies,

and now advises and invests in pioneering organizations

that actually apply his research.

And you can read more from him over on near and far.com,

which is his blog.

Near what's up, man? Welcome back to the show.

Travis, great to see you and thanks so much for having me back.

Of course, man, it's always a pleasure to have an initial conversation.

That's one of the coolest parts about doing podcasting for as long as I have,

is that you almost get to do interviews as anchor points

for the cool stuff that people are doing along the way, you know?

So it's been a fan of yours ever since we had the first conversation,

so I appreciate taking the time to come back and spend more time with us.

Tell me, catch me up, last few years.

What have you been working on? What are you excited about now?

Yeah, so I've been working on this new book.

Beyond belief, it's very exciting.

It has changed my life.

I think it's going to touch the lives of a lot of people.

I'm very excited about it.

It's been a long journey, but I learned so much.

It has been a mind-blowing adventure.

As an author, you can write on literally any topic you want to why this one.

Okay, so here's what happens.

So a few years ago, I published indistractable my second book,

how to control your attention and choose your life.

And it's such a common problem, right?

I feel like everybody's distracted these days.

I have ADHD, I've been diagnosed with it,

and it seems like everybody's struggling with distraction,

even if you don't have an ADHD diagnosis.

And I used to do these office hours where people can call me and ask me anything they want.

If they've read one of my books, I love hearing from readers.

And so sometimes they would have to wait a few months and get a call with me.

Maybe one in every 20 calls would sound like this.

Someone would call and say, hey, Nier, I read indistractable.

I really liked it, but it didn't work.

I'd say, oh, wow, you know, tell me more.

I spent five years writing this thing.

30 pages of peer-reviewed, citations to peer-reviewed studies.

Like, you know, change my life.

Tell me what happened.

Let's start with step one.

How did step one go for you?

You know, I read it.

I read step one.

I just didn't, I just didn't do step one.

Okay, no problem.

I understand.

Maybe skip that one.

Let's skip to step two.

How did step two go?

Yeah, step two.

Okay, so I read step two.

I read it.

I read it.

I just didn't, I didn't do it.

I didn't do it.

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

So I thought, wow, what did I do wrong with this book?

The people aren't putting it to use it.

Everybody says, oh, I'm so distracted.

Well, here, I spent five years here on a silver platter.

I'm telling you what to do.

Go for it.

This is going to solve your problem.

And yet, somehow they weren't doing it.

Even though, you know,

I have a million people bought the book amazing,

but a good chunk of them, I'm guessing kind of read it

and didn't do it, didn't implement.

And so I want to know why.

What was missing here?

What did I get?

And then if I was honest with myself,

I have bookshelves full of books

that I haven't put into practice.

I've paid gurus and experts to give me advice.

I haven't put the good use either.

Why?

Why is it that despite knowing what to do,

wanting the benefit of that behavior,

how do we just do it?

Well, it turns out that motivation is not a straight line.

That we think of motivation as,

well, if I want this benefit, I do this behavior.

Easy peasy.

But if that were true,

we would all have six pack abs and be multimillionaires.

That's right.

Who doesn't know what to do these days?

If you want to know how to do something,

there's no secrets anymore.

You just go on chat GPT, you Google it.

You're going to learn how to do it.

It's not that information is the problem.

What's the problem?

Is it skill?

Well, skill can be taught.

Is it resources?

Well, I know lots of people who have every resource.

They have tons of resources.

And they accomplish very little.

I know people who have very little

who go on to do amazing things.

So it's not that easier.

I think either.

I think what's missing is that

we don't understand that motivation is not a straight line.

Motivation is a triangle.

That you need to know what to do.

That's the behavior.

You need to know why you're doing it.

That's the benefit.

But holding in those two elements,

holding it all together is belief.

And if you don't believe that you will get the benefit,

let's say for example, you're working for a boss

who you don't think has your best interest at heart.

Maybe you don't believe they're going to give you that promotion

or that raise.

Well, are you going to sustain your motivation to work for them?

No.

And what about if you don't believe in your ability

to do the behavior?

Are you going to be able to stain your motivation

if you think, oh, I'm no good at this?

This is hard.

I don't like this.

No, you're not going to sustain your motivation either.

So it's not good enough to know what you need to do

and why you want to do it.

You also have that belief

that keeps you going to persist long enough

to actually achieve your goals.

And so that's where I decided I really

wanted to dive into the psychology.

And the truth as well as the myths,

there's a lot of myths out there around what works, for example,

positive thinking turns out positive thinking

has some serious negative effects

that we really have to use this properly

or it can actually hurt us.

Yeah, can we talk more about that?

Because that's been, I don't know what it is.

Sometimes when you do a bunch of research

and you read a lot and do a bunch of podcasting for living,

I feel like I've found myself to go down

these certain like topic silos every once in a while.

And it feels like this thing about optimism

has been one of those for me recently

because I felt when I was a younger person,

I was very optimistic.

It was just like anything that I did,

I had this belief that it was just possible

that I could do it.

I just had to figure it out.

And then you start going through out life

and you take a bunch of at-ats

and then you have failures.

Start inevitably kind of stacking up along the way.

And then you're almost building some

bank of evidence that suggests

that not everything's going to work out.

And then I sort of found myself

in this almost not necessarily pessimistic phase,

but skeptical I would say at least of phase

where it was just like,

nah, I caught myself saying stuff like,

you know, anything can happen,

but we're going to do our best instead of saying

like we're going to make this happen.

And then I hear people like Adam Sandler

on a podcast talking about

how he just had this weird,

delusional optimism,

this belief that it was going to work,

that he was going to be the next

Steve Martin and end up becoming true.

For every Adam Sandler that believed that,

there's a person who's still,

you know, busing tables in Hollywood

waiting for their big break.

How do you balance these ideas together?

It seems like there's a lot of reward

for optimistic thinkers

and there's less reward for pessimistic

kind of intellectuals,

but there's obviously danger,

like you said,

to becoming like wildly optimistic to some degree.

So how do you think about these things?

How do they how do they play in your mind?

Yeah. So thinking positive is negative.

And because the way we do it generally,

the way it's preached to us is maybe it were...

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For some people, but I think for the vast majority of us,

it actually backfires.

And there's quite a bit of research on this.

So Gabrielle Oatogen did a beautiful study

where she connected people to blood pressure monitors

as they visualize success.

Okay, so they did their manifesting exercise.

They did their vision boarding.

They did their thinking about the outcomes they wanted.

Okay, I'm going to be a famous comedian.

I'm going to be very wealthy.

I'm going to find love.

I'm going to have a beach body.

And what she found was that when they were visualizing

the outcomes, their blood pressure dropped.

They became more relaxed.

And in follow-up interventions with these folks,

she learned that people who had done this

became less likely to actually achieve their goals.

So students who visualized getting a good grade on an exam

became less likely to not only get that grade,

they didn't study enough to actually warn that good grade.

So it actually negatively affected them.

It actually hurt themselves.

So all this mumbo jumbo about manifesting,

the way most people are doing it,

is actually hurting them.

Is that related to the idea that they,

because they visualized it so much,

they almost felt like they had already accomplished it

without putting in the work?

Like, what exactly is the cause of that?

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right.

They became so relaxed.

The body thought that, okay, we already got it.

And that's one factor.

The other big factor is that people

don't understand what visualizing the right way means.

If you say, well, look at athletes.

Don't athletes visualize,

like this whole technique comes from athletics, right?

Well, what do athletes visualize?

Athletes don't visualize getting the gold medal,

getting the trophy.

That's not what they visualize.

An athlete visualizes the obstacles in their way.

They mentally and physically prepare for the challenge.

That's where positive thinking and manifesting

and all that stuff goes off the rails.

Because, you know, just manifesting the universe

will give you good things

or just be an optimist

and all these good things are going to happen.

What happens when it doesn't happen?

What happens when bad things happen?

Well, it's your fault.

You didn't manifest hard enough.

You didn't think positively enough.

No, that's bullshit.

And it's actually destructive.

Because you think, well, then I must not be the right person.

Now you have an identity.

Well, I'm a loser.

I can't do it.

I'm not cut out for it.

I'm no good.

It's me, not what I did,

but it's who I am.

And then you're sunk.

Then you built a cage of your own creation.

So that doesn't work.

What works instead is preparing yourself psychologically

for the difficulty that you are invariably going to face.

So for example, I used to be clinically obese,

not just overweight, actually obese.

And the way I learned to lose weight was not,

oh, I'm going to sit here and manifest a beach body.

That doesn't work.

What worked is when I'm at that dinner party, right?

When I'm out with my family

and someone offers me a chocolate cake

or an extra drink or something that has a lot of calories,

what am I going to do in that uncomfortable moment?

What am I going to do when it's painful to say no?

Say no things.

Well, that's what I have to visualize.

I have to rehearse not just what I will do,

but how I am going to feel.

And that's where beliefs come in.

You have to prepare yourself with the right belief

so that when that moment comes,

you have the right tools that you're disposal.

To visualize the difficulty of that moment

and essentially basically train your brain

to make it more habitual,

rather than thinking of it as an option in that time.

To not freak out.

To not freak out.

So it used to be when chocolate cake came across my face,

I want the chocolate cake, I want the chocolate cake,

I want that, I couldn't stop the script of rumination in my head.

I had to have it.

The only way to remove, stop that voice in my head was to eat it.

Whereas what you need to do to prepare

is not to think positive,

not to the universe doesn't care about your stupid vibrations.

The right thing to do is to say, how am I going to feel?

It's not going to feel good.

And you know what?

Pain is not suffering.

Pain is not suffering.

Pain is data.

Pain is just information.

People have gone through much worse.

If I don't eat the chocolate cake,

none's going to happen.

Right?

I'll want the chocolate cake.

So what?

And this is exactly the same technique

that helps people quit smoking.

It helps people stop chronic pain.

I've seen people use similar techniques

to go through surgery without anesthesia.

I've seen the video.

It's not magic.

It's the power of the mind.

By using beliefs the right way,

we can separate pain from suffering

and meet our full potential.

Yeah, pain is guaranteed,

but suffering is optional.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm nodding along with you

because I also used to be like 250 pounds.

Oh, is that right?

Wow.

Yeah, so you've been through this.

Yeah, what I think what finally helped me

was thinking, truly thinking about the teeny, teeny,

teeny tiny bit of pleasure that I'm going to get

followed by the long-term pain.

You know, like eating the cake is going to be so good,

but it's literally only going to last

as long as the cake is in my mouth.

And then as soon as it's down my gullet,

I'm immediately going to be like,

man, I shouldn't have eaten that.

Tomorrow I'm going to wake up and be like,

dang, I shouldn't have eaten that.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I think the last work for me was when you study

what is motivation.

You know, I used to think that motivation

is about wanting to feel good.

That's what motivation is about.

And actually what the literature shows

that that's not true, that when we actually look

inside the brain, the only thing that motivates us

is the desire to escape discomfort.

That's it.

Everything we do is not about the pursuit of pleasure.

It's about escaping discomfort.

Even wanting to feel good, right?

I want to eat the chocolate cake.

I want to be with my family.

I want to watch Netflix.

I want to do all these things.

Wanting, craving, hunger, lusting

is psychologically uncomfortable.

And that's the way the brain spurs us to actions.

By making us feel bad,

so we get the thing that makes us feel good.

So the motive here is discomfort.

So what that means is that weight management

is pain management.

Time management is pain management.

Money management is a pain management.

All of it.

We have to change our beliefs about what is pain.

Pain is not suffering.

How would you apply?

Obviously you have now written some very successful books.

Do a lot of speaking.

You've been a professor and you have all these different accolades.

But you also built and sold companies.

How does this apply in the entrepreneurial space?

Oh, big time.

So there are three powers of belief,

the power of anticipation.

Beliefs change what you see, like literally what you see.

We'll get back to that in a minute.

Beliefs change what you, the power of anticipation,

beliefs change how you feel.

We talked about that a little bit about pain is not suffering.

And then the power to change what you do, the power of agency.

So the entrepreneurial success is all about mastering these beliefs.

So for example, when it comes to the power of attention,

we know that entrepreneurs have a very specific traits

called entrepreneurial alertness.

And so there's research studies that show that entrepreneurs

literally see the world differently, not figuratively,

not metaphorically, they actually see it differently.

There was a study done where they asked people

who thought they were lucky or unlucky.

And by the way, entrepreneurs buy and large believe

that they are lucky, right?

Why would you be so crazy to think that you see $100 bills

while other people see nothing, right?

Like, you have to have what Walter Isaacson set of steep jobs.

You have this reality distortion field

where you are seeing reality differently.

And I'll demonstrate this through this study.

There's a study where they asked two groups of people

to do a very simple task.

So the task was, look through this newspaper

and count how many images are in the newspaper, right?

Just how many images?

One, two, three, four, five, count the images.

People who saw themselves as unlucky, okay?

Who had a belief, I'm an unlucky person,

took two and a half minutes to count the images.

People who were self-identified as lucky people,

people who thought believed good things happened to me,

I'm a lucky person, took 11 seconds.

11 seconds compared to two and a half minutes.

Why?

They didn't count faster.

On page two of the newspaper,

one of those images in big bold text said,

there are 43 images in this newspaper, collect your reward.

The unlucky people didn't see it.

It wasn't in their universe to pay attention to it

because they were counting like dopes, one, two, three, four, five.

They just counted for two and a half minutes.

They couldn't see it.

Just like for entrepreneurs,

they see something so obvious, like let's do this.

Yeah, this is gonna happen, like I know.

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Oh, it's gonna happen.

I can see it.

Whereas the rest of us, the non entrepreneurs, we can't.

So it's larger that's because of beliefs.

It's what we choose to adopt as our beliefs.

Yeah, that, I mean, when you are researching

for a book like this and you have sort of like this concept

of like, here's what I want to learn more about.

Are there, when you come across studies like this,

do you go like, oh, this is like,

yeah, obviously this is what happened or when you come

across studies and go like, wow, that blows my mind

and I'm on to something here.

I mean, I, I'll, the book that came out is like a third

of what I wrote, because I'm sure.

Yeah, the, all the studies I looked at that I didn't include

in the book, you know, you're, it's kind of,

it's like putting together a jigsaw puzzle

where you've got like six other jigsaw puzzle pieces mixed

in.

And you're telling me how we usually wrote like four books

and then had those.

Yeah, well, that's why I keep writing books.

Because like, I'll have all this leftover material of a problem

that I'm not really, I haven't quite figured out enough.

And so if there's one of those problems that I want to figure

out for myself, it's always quite selfish.

Frankly, like I'm always following my own curiosity

to solve my own problems.

Sure.

That's where I always go next with it.

Well, this has to be, I mean, this is like the building block.

Right, like this is, this is almost the step one

of succeeding in anything that you're doing

is just the belief that it's possible.

And the very first one that you said that, you know,

if you believe something that you actually start seeing

things differently, this is sort of going into the biases

that your brain starts choosing for you essentially.

Like if you believe that something's possible,

then you're going to find the opportunities within that world

that could make it possible.

Whereas if you believe something's impossible,

you're going to find all the reasons why it's impossible.

And then it paralyzes you from taking any action.

That's something we talk about on the show a lot

because, you know, I find that the entrepreneurial audience,

you don't have to beg, you don't have to beg in their mind

that it's possible to make more money.

They, like you said, they kind of already think that way.

It's the launchpreneur portion of the audience

that I think really needs to hear this piece

because in their mind, especially if like they grew up

in a place with limited access,

they didn't know a lot of people who had any money

and, you know, they were just proud of themselves

to get their bachelor's degree

and get a $65,000 salary.

And that was more than anybody in their family's ever made.

And so for them to sit here and listen to people be like,

oh, yeah, we did 4.4 million last year

or like we just exited our company for $78 million

or, you know, we got this whatever side hustle

that started out as a hundred K a year,

but then we grew it into this thing.

In their mind, it's like the gap is so large

between where they are and where they want to be.

But it all has to begin with the belief, right?

Like the belief, the,

I can actually, your evidence to suggest

that it's actually true, you have to just believe it.

Yeah, let me share a riddle with your listeners.

You may have heard this one before,

but don't say the answer.

Let me share this riddle because 83% of people

can't get the answer to this riddle

and it demonstrates exactly the point that we're making here.

So there's a father and a son

who are driving on a dark dirt road.

There's no lights and a deer jumps in front of the car.

The deer smashes into the windshield.

The father is killed instantly.

His son is in critical condition,

rushed to the hospital, brought to the ER.

The surgeon takes one look at the boy

and says, I can't operate on this boy.

He's my son.

How can that be?

Now, don't say the answer, okay Travis?

You know it, but 83% of people

don't know the answer to this riddle.

And you can give them all the time in the world

and they will not figure out the answer.

And right now your listeners are listening

and I'm telling you, 83% of them don't know the answer.

The answer is, how is it that the,

when the surgeon saw the boy, the surgeon says,

I can't operate on this boy.

He's my son.

The answer is the surgeon was the boy's mother.

Duh, okay?

83% of people can't get the answer

because of their beliefs.

Because 80% of surgeons are men.

20% are women.

But the most common case, what we believe prior,

it's called our prior beliefs,

what our experience has been.

Well, most of the time, surgeons are men.

So in this case, your brain can't even see

the possibility of a different reality.

It's exactly the way with entrepreneurship.

It's exactly the way with financial success.

Most of the time, the people you know, don't get ahead.

They're just working their day jobs.

And so that's the future you see.

You can only envision, just like you can't envision

that the surgeon could have been the boy's mom.

You can't envision any other reality.

Your beliefs won't let you see things differently

because of your prior experiences.

And so, but once you see the answer,

holy crap, of course it's the boy's mom.

Like so obvious, right?

But it's only once you know the answer.

How do you, if you're in that position,

how do you craft an environment

that allows you to start seeing

that there's other potential answers to the problem?

Yeah, there are many techniques.

One of my favorites is called inquiry-based stress reduction,

which is where you do what's called a turnaround.

This was based on the work of Byron Katie.

It actually extends this technique

though, is thousands of years old.

It's basically having a systematic way

to collect a portfolio of perspectives.

It sounds complicated.

Essentially, all you're doing is you're taking a belief

that you think is true.

Limiting beliefs are like your face.

You can't see your face.

Now, you can see your hand, see your feet.

Unless you look at a mirror, you can't see your face.

But we all have faces.

The only way you can see your face

is if you go to a mirror and look at your face.

You can see other people's faces,

just like you can see other people's limiting beliefs.

Think of a family member, think of a friend.

I bet you know tons of their limiting beliefs.

You can't see your own limiting beliefs

because you think they're facts.

So you don't question them.

So you have to have a systematic process.

So there's these four questions that I detail in the book

and that come from this inquiry-based

stress reduction technique.

Number one is a true.

Number two, is it 100% true?

Number three, who am I going to believe this?

And number four, who would I believe?

Who would I be if I didn't hold this belief?

And then what you do, and here's the powerful part,

you open up the possibility of looking

at the exact opposite of that belief.

So you literally take whatever is that belief.

That thing that you think is crazy.

And the brain hates changing its mind, okay?

First start with that.

Your brain hates changing its mind.

Hates it, hates it, hates it, right?

It's going to feel weird.

It's going to be uncomfortable.

You're going to give me every excuse.

People like me can't do this.

I don't have enough time.

Too fat, I'm too thin, I'm too broke, I'm too whatever.

You're going to find a million excuses.

That is your brain fighting tooth and nail

to get you to not change your mind.

But through following this process,

what you're going to do is look for the exact opposite, okay?

I don't have enough time.

I hear that all the time.

What's the opposite?

I do have enough time.

Could that be true?

Is there any possibility that could be true, right?

So what you're doing is intentionally testing out

the things that you think are facts

to see if they're just beliefs.

What's the definition of belief?

A belief is a conviction that is open to revision

based on new evidence.

So you follow a systematic process.

I'm going through it very, very quick here.

But you're following a systematic process

to constantly assess, is this belief serving me?

Or is it hurting me?

Is it helping me stay motivated?

Or is it causing me suffering?

Near I appreciate you taking the time, man.

I know you're a busy guy.

I don't take that for granted.

Working people go to get a copy of the book

or follow more of the stuff that you're working on.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, I just go to nearandfar.com

that's spelled N-I-R, like my first name, AndFar.com.

And the book is called Beyond Belief.

Beyond Belief, go pick up a copy of this book.

We say it all the time here on the show, guys.

Whenever you have a book recommendation,

just pick it up.

Just pick it up.

These are written by people who've spent countless hours

putting their effort into making sure

they put a finished product in the world

that actually can impact your life.

So Beyond Belief, pick up probably that book,

follow near and all the channels.

And you will not regret it.

I've been following for a long time.

And I don't either.

Near I appreciate you taking the time.

Everybody else listening, remember money only solves

your money problems.

It's easier to solve the rest of your problems

with money in the bank.

So let's solve that one first to hear

on the Travis Minks money podcast.

Thanks for tuning in.

Catch you next time.

Peace.