INTERVIEW | Make Money by Communicating Your Value at Work, feat. Erin McGoff

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As the internet's big sister through her advice with Aaron Branding, she's built a significant

online presence with millions of followers delivering candid career and life advice for Gen Z

and millennials. She received a Pulitzer Fellowship in 2017 was named Forbes 30 under 30 recipient

back in 2025. Her impact has been recognized by publications like The New York Times, Washington

Post, Wall Street Journal, Business Insider, and others. She's currently contributor to CNBC.

Her new book The Secret Language of Work is now available, and you can get a copy of that today.

Aaron, what's up? Thanks so much for taking the time to join me on the show.

Hey Travis, yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I am eternally curious because the whole content creator path is not something that has been wildly

available for a long period of time. I assume when you were in high school, your career counselor

wasn't telling you, you know, what have you thought about being a content creator? Did you think

about that? So how did this get started? What was the first time that you ever realized this

was a potential career path for you? Yeah, it's funny. I couldn't even dream of being a content creator

because it didn't exist when I was in high school or even college. Really, you know, we're inventing

new jobs every single day. It's crazy. I originally worked in the film industry, so my background is

in like video journalism and filmmaking and Hollywood and all that stuff. And I've always been

the unofficial go-to bestie for career advice, but what made me really sharp was working in the

film industry with zero connections. I went in as a total outsider and I had to learn how to be

the sharpest and have the best resume, the best portfolio, the best cold email, the best networking

skills. And I did it and I succeeded and I, you know, released a debut feature film. I moved to

New York, everything was happening, and then the pandemic happened and everything in my industry,

and every industry came to a screeching halt. And that's when I started posting career advice

online just for fun, just to pass the time, honestly. And it just blew up. People loved my advice.

They loved how I packaged it. And I think it's because I don't work at HR. So I was kind of like

in the trenches with people using humor to get very relatable advice. So that's how I got started.

Is film what you went to school for? Yep. I knew I wanted to be a filmmaker since I was

little little kid. Yeah. Okay. That's what's awesome about the content creation space is that it

allows you to just to do it. There's no, you know, I mean, there's no gatekeepers. Don't need

to use her. Yeah, right. Exactly. You can just be like, nah, I think I'm going to go ahead and do

this and then just film a video and put it out. Do you look, do you look back on your first videos,

like like really cringy? Like, oh, I can't believe I released that. Definitely like 90% of them.

But I actually think there are some that I posted in the beginning where I'm like, there was

something, I was really tapping into something there. You know, it was like so fresh. And I started

to actually go back and I look at them to like get a refresher on where everything came from. Yeah.

Yeah. A little bit of like inspiration and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. When you first started, was it just like

set up an iPhone? Let me just talk to you for a second. Were you sort of direct the camera? Were

you doing like fancy edits? What was like the initial launch? Yeah. It still is. It's funny. People

are like, oh, you're a filmmaker. You have all these cameras. And I'm like, I just use my iPhone.

I profit up against a water bottle and I press record like that. It's very simple. But I am a

professional editor. So I was editing and premiering stuff. But no, I never used, I always like to

limit the amount of friction between an idea and posting it. So I always try to keep my videos

like templatizing as simple as possible. What do you recommend for people getting started? Do

you recommend something very similar to that? Yeah. I think you just need to get started. That's

the advice everybody gives is you just need to start posting and see what works. But stop trying to

copy everybody else. I know there's a lot of accounts out there that say, you know, do these three

things. Take a break actually from your screen. I think the best ideas I've ever come up with,

my most viral ideas have been when I'm driving or in the shower. The ideas are within you.

You don't have to look externally for them. What about what about imposter syndrome?

Did you feel any of that creeping up at the beginning? No. I don't have too much of that to be honest.

I mean, my whole tagline is no one knows what they're doing and like everybody's out here

weighing in it. And while you should absolutely work to be a master at your craft and respect people

who are masters at their craft, when you really zoom out, like no one expected the pandemic,

no one expected AI. Things are just going to happen and we just need to roll with it.

So I don't feel imposter syndrome when it comes to being career advice because I research like

crazy. I really back up my claims with data, with boots on the ground of information,

and the proof is in the pudding. So I mean, I've helped a lot of people get jobs and raises millions

of people. So yeah, I guess in that category, no, I'm pretty confident that the advice I give

is pretty good. Yeah. Well, that's what's nice about being well researched and data backed.

But I don't know about you, but when I started, when I started this show, this was 2017.

When we started podcasting, the show was called Build Your Network at the time. And it was just

basically like my own personal, almost journal to discover how to build better relationships myself,

just because I didn't know anybody at the time came from like this sort of like cold background.

I was coming out of that just like had to build brand new network from scratch. And so what I

noticed was that I would start interviewing people on the show. And they would talk about a book

and like I should have read it already, you know, like you're the relationships guy. So I'm

sure you've read this book. And I was like, ah, actually, no, I haven't. But it's sort of like it

was the best public facing accountability partner that forced me to continue learning more about

the thing that I was talking about because I felt like I owed a debt to the audience that I was

putting in front of to have the best available information possible. I love that. That's great. Yeah,

it's like the thing that's propelled me into more, you know, self learning and self education along

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I owe all of that to the podcast because I don't think I would have just picked up all these

books and started reading through them without it. You know what I mean? There's too many books.

Yeah, too many. Too many. But speaking of that, you actually have a new book as well,

the secret language of work. Tell me about the book writing process. How did you find it?

What has gone into this project to date?

Yeah, it's funny. I used to just be a big reader early on in my career. I was a sponge. I would

just read every professional development and non-fiction book out there because I was just looking

for answers. And there are a lot of good ones, you know? But I'd say like 95% of them could have

been a blog post. And I always felt like they were trying to change who I was. My personality,

trying to suppress my sense of humor or what made me unique or trying to get me to sound like

someone else. And it's tough. So I wanted to write a book that was, first of all, it's extremely

specific. There's no fluff. It's just like my content. I get straight to the point. There's

specific templates. It's very realistic. I give real-world examples. But it's also a confidence booster.

It makes you feel better about yourself when you're reading it. Not worse, not like you're not

enough. And I'm not trying to change anybody. I meet people where they're at. If you're an introvert,

that's fine. You can still be a powerful leader. If you say literally, that's fine. You can still

be a powerful leader. I think that people want to follow authentic people. And so I wrote a book

that helps people become the most authentic and confident version of themselves in the professional

space. I was first approached by Penguin, my publisher, four years ago, 4.5 years ago, I'd write

a book very early on in my advice that they're in journey. And I said no. I actually didn't respond

to their email for a year because I'm a visual girl. Yeah, I just, both my parents have written

books. So I've seen how much work goes into it. And I'm not the type of person who has fastest

things. I never wanted to write a book just to have author on my headline. That's just not something

that I've personally craved. I know other people do. I'm not sure that I have an Oscar or something

like that. However, I did get to the point where people were asking me so often for a book,

they were just like, we want everything to be organized and consolidated. And we're tired of

looking for your videos and going through all these different resources to find what we need.

So I just thought how satisfying it could be to package up all of this IP that I've built

into 10 beautifully laid out chapters. And I could really sink my teeth into things that maybe

are harder to explain visually. For example, if there's an entire chapter on the art of written

communication, which is crazy because most of our professional communication nowadays is written,

it's through Slack and the email and team. So there was a big opportunity there for me to expand

and just become helpful in a different medium. I also read the audiobook, which was super fun

because I'm a big audiobook listener. So yeah, it took a while for me to write. I really put a lot

of effort into it. I really stressed out over it. I'm still stressing out over it. But I'm really

proud of how it turned out. I think it's going to change people's lives.

For somebody listening who wants to take some of the things you've talked about, turn it into

more income for themselves this year. What are a couple of the, let's say, low hanging fruit areas

that they should be focusing in on first? Yeah, low hanging fruit. Well, I think the first thing that

comes to mind when you ask that is, it's all about your mindset. You have to think about your

salary as the floor. Your salary is not the ceiling of what you can make in a year. It's the floor.

It's the, it's the base amount you're going to get paid. We are in a side gig economy. We're in a

side hustle economy. We're in a side quest economy. And I know that a lot of people don't have hours

after work. They come home to kids or they just work crazy hours and they don't have the capacity

for that. But for the listeners, you know, who are listening right now, who, who do have a desire

to do something extra or to bet on themselves, I truly do not believe there's ever been a better

time to go to your own thing. I don't think people fully understand. I think AI is both overrated

in the short term and underrated in the long term. And there is an incredible opportunity right now

that if you are a creative person who has a solution and you want to go vibe code it and test it

out and you're not technical, this is the best opportunity ever to go do that. Don't do it

everybody else doing don't stand, don't sell sand in the Sahara. Don't do dropshipping. Don't do

all those things on YouTube. Figure out what you're uniquely good at and do that. Yeah, because

the bottom line is like the struggles guaranteed the success is not and you're much more likely to

push through struggle when it's something that's meaningful to you or something that you actually

care about. Rather, yeah, something that's just like somebody preached an opportunity to you

enough times, you're like, well, maybe as well try this out. You know, then that's where you get

the, what I call the opportunity hoppers. You know, I mean, the person who like 10 years ago,

they were a Facebook ads expert and then they became a website builder expert and then they became

a crypto expert and a full ex expert. Now they're an AI expert. It's just like your opportunity

hopper. You're going from thing to thing to thing to thing to thing. Thinking that the vehicle is

the problem when in reality, it's actually just the focus on the vehicle that's the problem.

And so pick something that's more aligned with who you feel yourself to be. You'll probably end

up sticking it out long term, which is where the majority of the rewards are to be reaped anyway.

Right. Exactly. That's great advice. Follow your talents, not your passion too. I mean, I think

you should definitely be passionate about what you're doing, but it helps if you're actually good at

too. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And understand that there's going to be some level of

work or struggle that's in that. Anyway, I think the root word of passion comes from a Greek word or

a Latin word that means to struggle. So it's like sort of one and the same. You know what I mean?

There's going to be things that are going to annoy you. There's going to be things that are

going to irritate you, but that's just like part of life. I think people often will over estimate

their current problems and then underestimate problems in an adjacent field because they just

haven't gotten into that world. So they haven't experienced what the problems are over there.

It's like every new thing that you're going to try to tackle is going to come with a big set of

obstacles and problems. So get over that. Don't think that this new thing is not going to provide

that. It's just going to be different, different options, different problems. And if you care less

about that thing, you care about this thing, you're less likely to overcome those challenges. So just

stay where you are, you know, one of the graphs where you are, because that's where it's probably

going to be greener. On the on the salary side, let's talk some some practicality here. So let's

say somebody listening and they maybe they have this idea for a side project, but they're already

working on a side project and it's making a little bit extra money, but they also want to make

sure that they're taking full advantage of their career in the meantime. What's some advice

on negotiating a salary increase that you'd be able to give to us?

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Absolutely. First of all, ask like close mouths. Don't get fed. You need to verbalize what you want in life.

That's really the crux of my book is you can't just expect things to fall into your lap.

Your boss isn't going to just give you a raise. I mean, that's not their job.

But you need to ask for the things that you want in life.

So the first thing is to ask and the second thing is to understand your leverage.

So I'm sure you've probably talked about leverage a lot on the show.

But your leverage is your ability to walk away.

And the best leverage that you can have is being crucial to the company, being an excellent worker.

And notice I didn't say you come in early, stay late, you work your booty off.

You provide a lot of value to the company.

Another piece of leverage is another offer, of course.

You need to understand what chips you have.

And the second thing is understanding your audience.

So for example, if you're in a large company, your boss probably doesn't have the ability to say

yes or no to you right on the spot.

They're probably going to say, I hear you, I'm going to go talk to somebody else.

And they're going to need to regurgitate your case to somebody else to get that approved.

So it's understanding like creating three points where, you know, XYZ, the spy,

I, you know, this is a transactional relationship.

I deserve a raise.

There are nicer ways to say that that I have in the book.

But also, you know, if you work for a smaller company, like somebody who works for me,

for example, I can literally go in to the payroll software and give them a raise if I want to.

So all they have to do is make their case to me.

So understanding your audience and then making your case for it.

Yeah. And then also, can you talk about how to frame this in a way that speaks to the value

side of the equation a little bit more? I think the only reason I asked this is that I've found

that most people are thinking about the what's in it for me part where it's like, well,

I want this out of life and I want this next salary raise because I want to buy a house or

I want to get married and have kids and right now I can't afford that on this current salary.

And everything that they're thinking about is in terms of value that's one way.

Value from the company to me as the employee because I deserve it because I'm an employee.

Rather than thinking about like, what's the additional value that I can create for the company

that would make such a wide gap and value that they would have no choice but to then give me

more money for the additional things that I'm doing? Can you talk about that? Maybe maybe,

maybe like shed some light on what some things are that companies look for in terms of valuable

employee, what makes a valuable employee? Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail right on the head.

The number one mistake that I see is people talk about themselves. So I need to pay off my

student loans. Oh, my mortgage is getting high. They don't care. You can have the greatest boss

in the world. That's not a compelling argument. It's just not. And when you get into a managerial role,

it that makes sense. It suddenly clicks and you're like, oh, I really don't care. This is not part.

You're just personal debt is not my problem. Exactly. Exactly. However, if you have leverage,

if you are an excellent employee and you go to them and you say, hey, you know, this is it.

I mean, you don't have to say this is a transactional relationship, but your job is transactional.

You do the job and they pay you. And when that becomes tipped and you're providing more value

than they're paying you, that's simply just not a good business deal anymore. So you're just

going in and you're renegotiating a business deal. I always love to say, I love to discuss an

adjustment to my compensation instead of, can you give me a raise? Because it's not always about

the salary. Sometimes it can be about getting extra stock units or a 401k bump or extra PTO.

Like, there's so many other elements to the compensation package and relationship you have

with the company, but sorry, I got a little off track. What was your initial question?

Yeah, the value creation side, like what defines a valuable employee? How do you make yourself

more valuable if you don't feel like you're currently indispensable to a company?

Yeah. Well, the first thing is to think about how you exist within the context of the company.

You need everybody listening needs to understand how they make the company money at the end of

the day, how they affect the bottom line. And I think this is why every high schooler, instead of

or maybe in addition to having like a baby for a week, should have a company for a week to understand

how hiring works and how a PNL sheet works. Because if you don't understand how your role makes

the company money, because the company makes a margin off of your role. They make money off of

the work that you do. And so you have to understand where you fit in into the ecosystem and then make

it extremely visible. This is the mistake so many people make and why I wrote my book is because there

are so many diligent, hardworking, ambitious, motivated people who don't know how to make themselves

visible. So instead they work themselves into the ground, they slave away at a job, and then they

wonder, gee, why can't I get a raise? And it's like, you never asked, you never asked for one.

So I love just like simply at the end of the week, sending your boss an update, three bold points

of what I did this week. And tell your boss, don't just say, I got it handled. Say, I ran into these

obstacles. Here's what I did to solve them and it's handled. Like show them the effort that you

put in. And that goes a really long way. Yeah, you have to ask the bottom line, like you're not

you're just you're not going to get you're not going to you can't just hope against hope that

somebody's finally going to recognize your contribution and be like, here's everything you've

ever wanted. You know, I mean, you have to be willing to go in for the ask. I read this study recently

that said that those who those who negotiate their salaries and or are willing to leave a company

over the period of their career will earn over a million dollars more than people who never

asked for a raise or were willing to leave the company to begin with. And it was like, I think

that study was people who negotiate their first salary, which is the first salary. Yes, yes,

correct. Yep. Which is really interesting. Walking into the door. Yeah. A lot of people don't

negotiate that for salary, but it's a snowball effect. So always negotiate. Yeah, yep, exactly.

Ultimately, the thing that we've sort of landed on using this show is sort of the experiment is

that values typically a direct correlation to skills. So if you feel like you are currently,

you know, undervalued, appreciated, or maybe maybe you don't feel like if you went to ask for this,

like if you're if you're not confident that the fact that they would then go to you and be like,

all right, we'll go look somewhere else because we can't afford to bring you to give you this

raise or whatever. Then it sort of comes down to like, well, how much work are you willing to put

into making yourself a more valuable piece and more integrated piece of this organization? Can

you learn this new skill? Can you become the person who helps integrate AI into the inner

workings of the company to make it more operationally efficient? Can you learn a new skill set and

like switch departments instead of being in customer service, you become a sales rep and then

you can make more money because, you know, you actually are selling stuff and you get commissions

and or can you learn marketing or copywriting or is there something additional that you can learn

to say that like, I am now bringing this additional value into this organization. Therefore,

this is the compensation that I deserve as it relates to the additional, you know, money that

I'm actually bringing in. I think it's great advice, no notes. Okay, so book, book is coming out,

you're obviously continuing to create content all the time. What is it that you do now, Aaron,

that you think, what lights you up the most? What are you like, what gives you the most energy

of all the things that you do? Oh gosh. I love my job so much. I have my dream job. I mean,

I get to work from home in the comfort of my house, get impact millions of lives, you know,

every month. So it's a great job. I receive gems and emails all day from people saying,

I use your advice. I use this line. I use this template and I got a raise or I got my dream job.

I finally got an interview. So that's that's so so fun and exciting. I also love thinking about

again, like the role I play in the hiring economy and the job market's really bad right now.

So I love thinking about solutions and how I can use my platform and my unique insight and

an audience to create a difference. So right now, like I did, I'm founding a company called Stupid

Fish and it's hyper intelligent algorithm that tells you exactly what job you should have and

then coaches you on how to get it. And we cross reference job market data to take the most

in-demand jobs and because I believe with AI, we're entering into an upskilling, yeah, a decade of

we're upskilling and re-skilling and lateral moves, it's going to be everywhere. Everybody's

going to be pivoting their careers. So I think there's going to be a massive demand for tools

that can help people do that. And so that's something that certainly lights me up. I am thrilled and

very excited for that to be dropping next month. Yeah, awesome. Then everybody can be on the lookout

for that as well. And then also if you're listening right now and you want to make more money in your

career, which is probably why you're listening to the show, then go pick up a copy of her book that

just dropped the secret language of work. Aaron, I appreciate you taking the time. I know you're

very, very busy person. So I did not take that for granted at all. Everybody else listening,

remember money only solves your money problems, but it's easier to solve the rest of problems with

money in the bank. So let's solve that one first here on the Travis makes money podcast. Aaron,

thanks so much for taking the time. You can go learn more from Aaron obviously pick up a copy of

her book, secret language of work, but also Aaron McGoff.com. That's MCG OFF. Excuse me,

Aaron McGoff.com at Aaron McGoff on Instagram at advice. Sorry, that's wrong. I don't know how

you got that. It's it's all advice with Aaron. Advice there and dot com advice with Aaron.

Yeah, sorry. Okay, interesting. Okay. Yeah, I got the wrong information sent over here. Yeah, so

everything's advice with Aaron. So forget what I just said. Everything's advice with Aaron.

At advice with Aaron and advice with Aaron dot com. Aaron, thank you so much. Seriously,

there's so much great valuable stuff in here. I mean, I know your book will be rife with more

additional information that will be helpful for everybody listening. So I appreciate you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. Yes, ma'am, of course.

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