Israel retaliates against UK sanctions

0:00This is a global production. This is LVC from global leading Britain's conversation with Nick Ferrari at breakfast. More to four minutes after seven on Wednesday, September 9th, an unsettling decision over those settlements on the West Bank. Well, it will be if you listen to the chief rabbi or indeed the leader of the Conservative Party who say it could have put Jewish people as of course they approach that one of their holidays, Rosh Hashanah, put them at severe risk. We'll look at that in more detail. Look at some of the language used on both size ethnic cleansing from the United Kingdom, hostile and outrageous lies from Israel. In the middle of course, could lie innocent people, innocent Jewish people living in the United Kingdom more on that. And the other big story is the failure yet again of the gnats or should that be the not service, which of course has air traffic control thousands of people in convenience hundreds of flights ground achieve executive of gnats. Martin Rob gave this update. Our system is now back up and running so we have resolved the issue

1:06and now control as they're there to help make sure that we can recover as fast as possible. The best information in terms of how long this will take to resolve lies with the airlines. And there is a track record now of gnats failures. By the way, you will not believe the salary that that man earned last year and how much of it was bonus for good performance. Yes, you did hear that correctly. If you were stranded, someone you know, someone you love was stranded, stay tuned for that salary. Well, shoot the lights out. I'm telling you that in other news. Criminal gangs are exploiting a new loophole to secure asylum for those coming into the country illegally on small boats. I'm Andy Hughes with the exclusive. The GP Fitnote System that allows young people to sign off works sit with conditions such as ADHD after just a brief consultation is insane. So says the government advisor on this issue, Alan Milburn and consternation in entertainment circles.

2:08We'll probably take the latter half of that. Why, why, why, Tom Jones is asking why is it in South from the TV show The Voice Age Discrimination? That's later in the show. Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband will be joining us later in this hour to discuss this story. As Israel accuses Ed, I quote a hostile labor government of outrageous lies, closing the British Consulate in Jerusalem and asking British military personnel to move from the area after Ed Miliband said Jewish settler terrorists with guilty of ethnic cleansing, extraordinary language, a lager which has not been heard in the House of Commons before. Certainly it's been heard on radio stations such as these and it's been offered by commentators but not in the House. So too the House of Commons Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband. Today we refuse to be bystanders to further suffering and to the destruction of the two state solution. We call out what is unlawful.

3:08We act on the import of goods from illegal settlements. We ban advertising of illegal settlements. We act on services to prevent new settlement expansion. We act on settler violence. We support accountability for what has happened in Gaza and we pledge to galvanize the international community to confront the ongoing and urgent humanitarian crisis. Above all we say Britain is not silent in the face of deep injustice and law is it powerless. And today we act in concert with others. In a broad international coalition I can tell the House that today France and Canada are announcing alongside Britain that they will also ban the import of goods from illegal settlements. Joining the Netherlands, Ireland, Belgium, Spain and Norway which have either banned goods or in the process of doing so. With many other countries Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Poland, Portugal and Sweden pledging today they will support further action. Madam Deputy Speaker this is what Britain can achieve leading with others. One thing that's unclear to me is how do you

4:09distinguish between the dates or the olive oil that comes from the West Bank or other parts of the region, other parts of Israel, something we might put to Mr Miliband but staying with him let's listen to some of the language that he deployed. The British government agrees for the isethnic cleansing of Palestinians in areas of the West Bank perpetrated by settler terrorists and all too often the Israeli government has turned a blind eye to this and worse members of it have made statements and taken actions to support the forced displacement of Palestinians. I recognize the gravity of saying this but the truth is it is the least the people who face such such suffering deserve and it should be the prelude to justice. And a response from Israel foreign minister Gideon Sahr announcing countermeasures including the closure of the Consulate in Jerusalem. The accusations made were outrageous lies. We have nothing against the British people. Unfortunately a hostile labor government is in office systematically acting against the state of

5:10Israel. Let's bring into the conversation an Itelevian who's president of the Israel Britain Chamber of Commerce and innovation joining me now. The impact in Israel and trade terms how would you measure it? Good morning. Sorry I assume you addressed me a question I can't hear you. Can you hear me now Anita Levin? Can you hear me? Yes Anita sorry about that let me try again Anita Levin your president of the British sorry Israel Britain Chamber of Commerce and Innovation. What will the impact in trade terms be of these measures in Israel? Good morning to you again. Good morning and sorry for that. The implication the direct implication are not so significant because we are talking about less than 5% of the mutual trade between Israel and the UK but this is not the real question. The real question is what would be the general impact? How practically it will be how

6:12enforceable and what would be the collateral damage and who would pay the price? Well expand on those if you would. So we are talking about a certain item in trade relations. The mutual trade between Israel and the UK is around 6 billion pounds but the relations are might be on this amount because this is for goods only. There are all kinds of cooperation in innovation in services in the large significance and exchange of knowledge and the strategic alliance and all of these things might be indirectly affect because of the difficulty to separate between certain items that are delivered or manufactured in the West Bank and others.

7:15This is going to be very difficult very confusing but I think another important question maybe the first would be who is going to pay the immediate price and this would be the Palestinians workers that are working in the West Bank and we have a concrete case several years ago of so the stream that moved their plan from the West Bank into Israel and they had to release hundreds of Palestinian workers and it's a shame it is their livelihood. I need to leave you and thank you your president of the Israel Britain Chamber of Commerce and Innovation 11 minutes after 7. Let's get to your calls on this. That's what we're about in the morning. Peter's instilling right call or wrong call by Ed Miliband and the government. Good morning. Good morning Nick. I think it was a right call and I think the language used was spot on. What's going on in the settlements meets the UN definitions that are finally cleansing. It meets the UK definitions for terrorism so yep spot on. What does it achieve by closing the

8:17consulate in Jerusalem? I think it's under message. We can't keep to it telling around Israel and I am also getting a little bit sick of every time any sort of criticism is leveled against Israel but we bring up anti-femitism. All right let's bring so don't go Peter. Naji and Hendon do you agree with Peter that it was a necessary step? Well I'm not saying don't act. You know if you as a government want to prioritize international law absolutism over a kind of impactful state cross but what I'm afraid I can't stand for or understand is what any of these sanctions remotely achieve and I understand you know you have Ed Miliband on later in this hour but I think in a political environment where we already know Israel is raised in parliament more than any other issue for an automatic I'm afraid it's very hard to escape the conclusion that the manner and the timing with which he's announced these sanctions yesterday shows that it's nothing other than domestic political fears. Don't go Naji Peter it's tokenism and performative politics as Naji how would you respond to him? Well I would say that anything less than a total response can be dressed up like

9:21that but what's the other option what do you do nothing do you just sit silently I would say that if anything the language and the past dream by our government probably sends an even more powerful message and it's about time. You do nothing Naji is what Peter is saying? Well you know you saying that you can't sit by and do nothing but let's look at what the government have actually done and ask what an earth any of that has achieved except positively worse in the situation look the government decided to recognize the Palestinian state while it's territory the governed by an Njiq that the government itself ladles as terrorists you know that's the most irrational and startling precedent I can think of in modern state law and they're banging on this whole plan about how they must protect the territorial continuity and contiguity of that Palestinian state seemingly without realizing the very Palestinian state they recognize them want to say is not itself territorially contiguously they've got pieces of land completely different sizes knowing the structure connecting the two whatsoever and now you're going to risk that which is

10:22left of your own influencing rather your own national security the security of British Jews you know at the stern warning of your of your own independent reviewer of terrorism legislation just to get your view out on this the moment the 40-year election could go just the way you wanted to let me just tell you the trade we're talking about Peter for a comeback to in terms of a nation trade the date to business from West Bank and Gaza is worth 14 net million pounds olive oil 1.4 million herbs and spices 180 thousand pounds Nablus so per 164 thousand pounds that surely shows its performative no one I I appreciate some of the money but in terms of global trade it's nothing it's not even breakfast what's the alternative and this is what I would like to ask the what what what what do you like us to do what do you prefer we do do we embargo Israel quick response from you Naji then we must move on well I'm not saying don't act as that's your priority but I'm just saying if you've got the election coming up it's only going to enhance the siege mentality of the net and yard government as these perilously tight October election it makes it

11:25more likely substantially the same government returns to office or they go even more hardline Peter thank you Naji thanks for your views more on that to come back here a more domestic story this is the third summer where we have had mass disruption so it should be a case of three strikes and you're out head of whiz air after hundreds of flights were grounded or indeed couldn't land in some instances thousands of patches in communion in convenience if on Moynihan suggesting that the head of nets which should surely be knots stands down I'll have more on that after this Nick Ferrari at breakfast call 03456060973 19 minutes after seven back to your calls concerning the British action British government action regarding the West Bank two stories dominate the front pages I won't get through all of them but the one that we've gone with is the front page of the daily mail milliband accused of putting Jews in UK in danger the daily express you have put an increased target on us Jewish leaders that that is in quotes the times these with this as well Israel reacts with fury to UK curbs on settlements the other big story is of course the problems and we're going

12:30to have our reporters around the country on that the latest to problems the glitch that grounded up to a thousand planes a thousand of passengers and of course this is another part of a series of failures by nets a nice headline from the front page of the Sun that's another flying mess another flying mess the daily telegraph air traffic collapse grounds flights you can find more on that on the lbc app by the way thousands remain stranded as flights are grounded and I have to say if you go through the all the websites that's the one other story that's getting a bit of traction that says mirror online is the war of words between the Sussexes that was of course that communicate put out by the king yesterday that they the Sussexes make them a marker to be treated as regular citizens as it were not members of the royal family all right let's get more of your voices on about the first story I mentioned there that's a concern the story that we've started with which is the British government's reaction to those settlements on the West Bank culling in Leicester you supporting this I mentioned Caled as we spoke in the past good morning

13:31morning yes of course I mean but it's been a long time coming this year many then decades ago we should have had a big implementation of international law well from 1948 I mean this even with icc is you know obviously you know is um said that right are you aware of something called the law of unintended consequences because there are elections on the way in israelis you you may be aware next month and now there is a very very real reaction that what the very real possibility that the reaction will be that this will simply mean that a more hard line government is elected and if there was a possibility that Benjamin Netanyahu was to be unseated that may well have been a minimized by UK's action your response to that it's about time we had somebody who was an else in London in the UK government no no no no no I'll try again I ask you if the law of unintended consequences and this is something I'll be sharing with mr. Miloban means that in fact israel now goes more hard line so the possibility of any kind of solution becomes more distant how

14:34would you react to that before I answer your question no no no you don't my way so I'll give you one last opportunity on this Caled when it's the Caled breakfast show no we see they can go that way but currently we'll do it my way so how do you respond to that what more evil can Israel do this killed ten no no all right you're not received you're either choosing not to or I'm not putting the question if it's my failure I apologize I'm asking if that's what's happens Calible talk again over another time seven twenty two more reaction on that in a moment let's come to other matters and I've already told you hundreds if it may be actually nudging a thousand flights were grounded across the UK after a technical fault stopped air traffic control directing flights I'll go through the tail of the tape the cancellations at various airports in a moment but let's speak with some of our reporters who were across the country reporting on this first to LBC's east of England correspondent Shavani Sharma who joins us from Stansford Airport in Essex Shavani morning Nick good morning it's been a turbulent start to the holiday for passengers who were forced to sleep on hard terminal floors last night here at Stansford or who were trapped on stationary

15:36planes for hours on end with no food or water more than a hundred flights have been cancelled here alone hundreds of flights delayed as well as thousands more in airports around the country as you say from London to Manchester and the Midlands the chief executive of the National Air Traffic Control Provider Martin Rolf has said that a technical issue is to blame for all of the chaos but that he takes full responsibility for what's happened we work very hard to make sure that those flights leave on time depart on time arrive on time but that people stay safe throughout today was an unfortunate day with that didn't happen we are critical national infrastructure we work 24-7 we are there every single day of the year getting people off on their holidays and sometimes these things go wrong when they do we just want to make sure that everybody is safe and to fix it as soon as we possibly can there are people calling on Rolf to resign over this including the management at Ryan air who have highlighted that he's overseen major airport meltdown since 2023

16:40of course though Nick the people on the receiving end of all this are the passengers many of whom are still stranded this morning desperately trying to get where they need to go to desperately trying to get information or assistance there are still a few people I can see lying down on the floor with blankets actually at this morning I've spoken to some people the first voice you'll hear now is 16 year old Lucy she's traveling on her own trying to get home she's been stuck for hours with no food or water people are asking for a chance they can we get off can we leave and they said that if we left we wouldn't be compensated we haven't told anything they just saw us that we can wait to get on the plane if it goes later we're there for four and a half hours to start on the time act we have such a water and strength and we can't really answer the word got where we're not allowed to leave any water and we can't because it's all locked away now currently you know not large-cure no other information no announcements from Ryan air with airports now the transport secretary Heidi Alexander has said that the technical issue has now been fixed she's ruled out the

17:45possibility of a cyber attack as well that there will be knock on effects throughout today passengers being told to check with their airlines now let's get the picture at Manchester airport with LBC's Northwest correspondent Chris Chambers thank you Shiv where the boards here still showing up cancellations this morning a handful of departures to Paris, Mercia and Heathrow being scrapped along with one to Mumbai a little bit later on but a few arrivals from India and Turkey also impacted apart from that though we do seem to be back in business the airports are expecting there to be a significant knock on impact from the issues yesterday though even after the issues were resolved last night the worst still logistical problems because planes were either in the wrong place or crew were timed out on what they're legally allowed to do and that meant a flight had to be cancelled or delayed now lots of people I spoke to last night were left trying to either find a hotel to stay in at short notice or go back home and try and replot the holidays and these people told me there was a bit of a nightmare they're on the plane and a lot of back and forth starting stopping

18:47coming back to the gate that went on for four hours they booked me on to the later flight but I can't be bothered with it and like you know what I mean I just can't I haven't got it and my lights I'm gonna go home and come back home tomorrow no one knows what's doing and the all just tell you to go online he just can't predict themselves constantly it's not good it's not good we're stranded here now trying to sort out a combination now try to find an hotel or something what happens now all and then straight to the port of mate and then just keep checking and just try and book on boss is here and at Liverpool airport just down the road so they do expect fights to return to normal today but the airport is likely to be busier than normal because of rescheduled flight snake christ james reported from Manchester before christopher shavani shaman from stan's dead airport now if you were affected by that or someone you know or someone you love if you're sitting in a hotel now you're sitting at home if you're on your way back to the airport if you were meant to meet someone and they couldn't actually get here bear in mind worth telling you that flights airports such as copen hagan and parasol warned they might have to accommodate these flights i said i'd give you the tail of the tape air tracker radar so i'm so sorry air tracker flight

19:50radar 24 found 352 flights to and from heath rover delayed a daily average of heathsway by the way is 1300 a gap with 281 flights delayed out of its normal 850 quota and for Manchester we just heard one of my colleagues 249 out of normal 650 lastly we get a Birmingham 101 out of a normal 300 considerable criticism from airlines such as wiz air and ryan air and we're getting to speaking with the senior a member of the the simb a boss of tern ryan air in the last hour final hour of the show criticizing martin roalf who's the net chief executive now this is of course presided over three failures one of which a couple of years ago inconvenience around around 700 thousand passengers 1600 cancelled flights yes that's right 700 thousand passengers 1600 hours costing the aviation six to a hundred million pounds but he's still imposed he took the job in 2012 after leading the team of engineers who fitted out the headquarters of swanic near south

20:52hampton and the kit that's gone wrong last year here 1.4 million pounds 553 pound base plus 865 thousand pound bonus per good performance god only knows what happened if it's on badly let's pick up on what you're saying our conversation about events in the Middle East remind you the foreign secretary joins us later in this hour maxes can you ask mr millaban when can we expect trade sanctions on china and pakistan china has two million weavers in concentration camps 5.8 million slaves pakistan is ethnically cleansing almost half a million ethnic Afghans and kinesis do so yet no trade sanctions our support sanctions in israel when they're applied fairly world wide same subject this comes in from toney i'm sure all the passengers suffering at uk airports and the land rover workers worried about their jobs will we happy we have an adjoe but the only true democracy in the middle east there's a lot of opposition to them isn't there this comes in from steve the only reason for this parliamentary action was the bilge and hulvinson pancreas to fight

21:56off the greens british jews could pay the highest price for this and embolden those who want to divide us keep those calls coming or we will talk with you i hope you can hold the other side of the news because you've got some news on em milliamand and i want to hear those but we have the headlines to get to him coming up after the news criminal gangs are exploiting a new loophole to secure asylum for those coming into the country illegally on small boats i'm underuse with the exclusive and in the world of sport and when sport crosses business his antony kim winning the live golf adelaide tournament in february it's a tale of redemption and the strength of love and family antony kim has stunned the golfing world and the world is probably equally stunned now as that breakaway league which seem to start with such spirit live files now live golf files for bankruptcy protection nick for rarion breakfast on lbc call o345 60 60 973 733 is the time delighted to say aura you have held on we'll come back to our conversation concerning

23:01the israel of the action by the uk government against israel and of course i remind you at milliamand with us in roughly around under 20 minutes time christian maize with us now he's headed in chief at city a m and i held off talking about that news papers from page because or it makes more sense to come from the boss what is it and what's the story that you focused on this morning good morning to you good morning nick and you baili the governor of the bank of england was talking to mp's yesterday alongside colleagues from the central bank and he sounded the alarm as if it needed ringing again about inflation and the risks of higher inflation to the uk economy he said that inflation risks were to the upside which is central bank speech for their looming quite large he warned any prices could still be higher due to the conflict which i remind our listeners nick is not over we talk of course of the war in aron now with that in mind oil prices came within a whisker of a hundred dollars a barrel again yesterday that is because of further regional instability and they haven't hit that point since i think around mid-may

24:05which is a time of which they began to calm down somewhat so that particular energy price issue is definitely playing on andrew bale's mind he is thinking ahead about interest rates as well he expressed some frustration that people are over interpret statements from the bank and price in future interest rate rises as if they're guaranteed he says we do not have a secret plan that we're not telling you about we make these decisions one at a time as they come based on the information that we're seeing and that we're analysing but he did acknowledge that three interest rate hikes over the next 12 months was the position consistent with a more pessimistic view facing the uk economy so it all depends on not just those international inflation repressions also of course the budget uk borrowing costs which continue to hit extraordinary highs highs on the 30-year bond issues yesterday um commanding a yield not seen since 1998 why because investors

25:07questioned the uk's ability to make good on its debts and indeed concern particularly actually more so than questioning our ability to pay back the debts they're concerned about the impact of higher inflation on that lending and therefore they demand a higher price to make that kind of borrowing so all of these factors coming into play ahead of the next bank of England interest rate decision 24 hours ago we were talking about a gentleman who i'm sure you know you probably know well i hadn't actually heard of hedge fund tycoon christ rocos or rocos said to be worth 3 billion pounds he's decided he will exit the uk now we read he's not alone well he's in the class of his own or a league of his own if i can put it like that who's extraordinary individual next state educated scholarship to eaten launched his own investment fund employ several hundred people makes tens of millions of pounds of philanthropic donations in the uk paid around 330 million pounds in personal tax in the uk and as we've discussed he's off to grease he's had enough now not everybody is in the billionaire's club but there are a great many people in this country with three four five

26:11million pounds of total asset taking into account pensions and investments not that unusual and there are many companies that serve them one of which is a company called wealth club which provides advice to these high net worth individuals or reasonably wealthy individuals in the scheme of things they've done a survey of their client base and found that at the moment as it stands 16% of them say they are actively considering leaving the uk about 60% have said they've had the conversation then it's a conversation that recurs and we discussed this issue a lot ahead of the last two budgets in the aftermath of the last two budgets this is real money these are real people these are real decisions we know a huge amount of very very wealthy people have left this country the impact of all this will not be seen in the tax take until early next year where I think at that point the chance to get a bit of a shock not least as the Tories pointed out yesterday the requirement of about I think over 30,000 average households will now be needed to make up the

27:12shortfall of the single tax bill that was annually paid by that hedge fund manager who has not decided to leave the country let's finish with live golf they were obviously hoping for a life on the greens but unfortunately they've ended up in the red looks that way doesn't it this is the Saudi Arabia backed rival breakaway group to the traditional pga tour pga golf which attracted players lured them away from the established league with the promise of most extraordinary earnings and guaranteed contracts unfortunately it does look as if this ended up in the rough somewhat in the statement last night they said that they are filing for chapter 11 bankruptcy in the US which will allow them to reorganize the company this is not least because Saudi Arabia's public investment fund has decided not to continue its funding beyond the end of this season having pumped about three billion quid into it over the last five years which is pocket change for Saudi Arabia but nevertheless it was the basis of this breakaway golf tournament which is now saying that they

28:14will have to try to reorganize themselves and some of the players who jumped ship to them are now going to try and find their way back to their former playing grounds whether or not they'll be welcome I'm not sure but it's certainly not the way that back is at the time of live golf's emergence on the scene wanted the story to go yes it puts them in a difficult place Christian Mayor's edition chief at city am 739 is the time or is in muswell hill orry and thank you for holding initially your reaction to what we heard from Edmila Band now just wondering although I don't necessarily disagree with the fact that this should stop in the West Bank definitely yes I'm just wondering why this obsession with Israel there's so much going on around the world with so much atrocities and you know countries that have but abuse human rights well some would say it's to shore up their voter base because they risk losing voters to a green party which is stronger on the

29:15the problem in the Middle East how would you react to that suggestion which is widely here I actually think it could very well be true it's just about the vote but you know at the same time there's so much going on in the Middle East with human rights that are being abused or in other countries in China the the minority Muslims are you know and in I think it's in Myanmar yes absolutely as Max pointed out there are millions of slaves and millions of vegan Muslims in China but we to my knowledge we don't have any sanctions against them or that is a question we're going to be putting thank you for your input and thank you for holding have a good doubt there in muzwell hell we will be putting to the front sector when he joins us in approximately 10 minutes time what calls coming on this morning we're going to talk to you about those chaos both in the skies and on the ground but let's go to another story and have you ever heard of the fake dad scandal no me neither but elbisius discovered a new loophole being exploited by criminal gangs to a secure asylum for some of those arriving on those small boats or

30:17indeed the large mega dingus which is crime crossbow and antichews joins me in the studio with the exclusive report and a good morning what you got good morning Nick this is known as the fake dad scam whereby single mothers are being pressured or bribed into registering asylum seekers as their newborn babies father on birth certificates to help with their right to stay claims one whistle blower from a local authority in the midlands claims it's clear these individuals don't know each other at all the first time I noticed it was when a couple came in with a newborn baby they didn't speak the same language and they were living hundreds of miles away one in Manchester and one in London I asked the mom if everything was all right and the man answered so I asked him if he could tell me his partner's name and he couldn't I flagged it to my boss but he said you just have to allow it as we can't prove it but this started happening on a weekly basis all the women were very quiet and didn't say much they weren't looking me in the eye

31:19the man didn't let them speak it was obvious to me that this wasn't right I kept reporting these cases but I kept being told to just let them do it the home office says it is aware of this issue and has already made multiple arrests and prosecutions so who's behind this I'm told from several sources that the criminal gangs behind sham marriages where asylum seekers are married to a UK citizen to be granted asylum or behind these fake dad scams I've been speaking to Neil Lancaster a former senior detective at their Metropolitan Police he was seconded to the immigration crime team in the home office he told me just how lucrative this can be for those seeking to bend the rules the more successful you are as a law firm has an immigration advice center the more customers you get the more customers you get the more money you make this is all about money there is huge amounts of money to be made in this job I'll give you an example the big case I did against the corrupt ministry in East London his proceeds the crime seizure with over two

32:21million per now being named is the father of a child doesn't automatically give you the right to stay in this UK but it certainly approves your chances because of laws surrounding the right to family life this week there's also been allegations that only one percent of asylum applications are genuine Neil doesn't think it's quite as low as that but he says it's certainly not far off he tells me that the majority of fraudulent applications are actually approved because of pressures on the system we still have a huge backlog and we only have 2000 let's be honest poorly trained under resourced people in the home office that are engaged in in processing these applications and you know if there's someone's on their back saying you've got to make these decisions you've got to make these decisions you've got to make these decisions it's easier to say yes because then there's no appeal and it goes away and you know you take a box and to move on to the next one in one astonishing case Nick a Jamaican Yordie gang member he was convicted of murder and sentenced

33:27to life with a minimum of 16 years nearing the end of his custody time in custody the deportation process started despite having five children different children from five different women he said on his asylum application that he was gay and it was unsafe for him to return to Jamaica he was granted asylum pressure is now mounting on the government to crack down on bogus claims and small bog crossings with mass protests happening in Dover in Port Smith in the past few days the home office says it is working to identify those taking part in fake dad scams and that claims about the approval rates of asylum are not true. Pety Hughes OBC's Crime Correspondent with that exclusive report you can also find Andy on the global podcast the crime agents we're going to be talking about that plain disruption actually take let's take a call now it's going a minute late to use Maya is in Portis but Maya this is your daughter what's happened good morning. Good morning Nick first time good to have you on. So my daughter was scheduled to fly yesterday via gethric at

34:321255 and I look at the flight she went by train and she was on the aircraft 15 minutes late boarding and she said everything is fine yeah and then she rang the said oh there's some problem with the ATC so we wouldn't be flying for an hour hour and a half yeah so and then she texted back that it's going to be about 45 minutes away so that's too fun not bad. That's awesome. And I'm starting looking on on internet there was nothing nothing at all gethric information chart was still saying departing at 1255 nothing else two hours later she was still saying we're still on time like nothing's happening but however the crew are really great they they'll give them water some snacks and all that so that's the positive side the crew where is she now she used in the hotel it one of the hotels I can't name for the Los of Chains but in near Gatswick so we have to be paid for that I assume yeah be able to pay that so again she went to the counter there and said what are my options I say you need to rebook

35:38another flight however the other flight is on Saturday that's the Saturday I'm coming back from my holiday with my friends yeah so my wife went on on the BIA website booked it for this afternoon for 2pm okay even the the desk crew there say so look keep all the receipts saying hotel take Uber she got it Uber but the driver again was very sympathetic said I've come across loads of today yeah so she's hoping to get out at two o'clock this afternoon Mayor we're hoping we're hoping we fingers crossed she rang a fiesta there said look her friends are still stranded in lute and and they want the tarmac for a long time let's hope she gets it I have to leave it there give her my best wishes I hope she has actually goodness knows she deserves it Mayor thank you best wishes to your daughter coming up after the usual here from this man today we refuse to be bystanders to further suffering and to the destruction of the two state solution as a Edmiller band

36:42it's nine minutes for four eight notwithstanding the concern of course over these problems with nats with the air traffic control the other big stories events in the middle east and the starts taken by the British government in the person of the foreign secretary Edmiller band who joins us now thank you for your time foreign secretary as you and your colleagues war game the decision you took decided to take had you allowed for the possibility that the consulate would be closed would effectively be closed down and British military be asked to leave the area yes we knew that that was a possibility let me sort of explain why we did what we did yesterday go ahead we believe that the only future the only secure future for both Israelis and Palestinians two state solution a viable and secure Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel we see that prospect being destroyed by the facts on the ground the expansion the ever expanding and accelerating expansion of settlements the latest of it being the so-called E1 settlements in august and we felt along with our international allies and many of our international allies who

37:45also acted yesterday that we couldn't continue to stand by in the face of this destruction and that's why we did what we did and we obviously thought in advance that it was possible that Israel would unfortunately and regrettably react you're right you are we are one of eleven other countries including close allies such as France and Canada can you give me an idea of the geographical what seems to be the importance of this E1 area E1 project that the sense is it would effectively split the region is that what caused such concern yes exactly what it does is it it it directly comes between East Jerusalem and the West Bank so so the the kind of contiguous nature of a Palestinian state gets destroyed by E1 and for a long time it has been a red line for the international community and and actually many people thought Israel would not start tenders in E1 and they did so and that is the fear frankly and and also we did in this debate listen to the voices of the Palestinian representatives the Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority the representative here in London

38:49who said please the international community cannot keep sitting on its hands here it does need to act is there the law of unintended consequences here foreign secretary and that you will be aware we are an election season in Israel isn't there a real danger now that actually the political reaction could be going more hard line that's the desire for a two state solution which any sane person would want to at least view or consider has gone away well again we did think about this Nick and obviously it will be for the Israeli people to decide who they elect as their government first of all I think that fear when people have said that is overstated but secondly I don't think we as a British government can outsource our moral and political responsibilities we can't say well you know it's not it's not for us to decide now we'll leave it to to see what happens in the election we we know this urgency we know what has been happening we should have actually acted sooner

39:50in my view as an international community and therefore we didn't feel we could we could wait and obviously I do say this very clearly it's for the Israeli people to elect their government we want a thriving Israel we want a prosperous Israel and we want an Israeli government we can work with you don't think there's in any involvement here it's absolutely otherwise in the democratic process in Israel you don't recognize that absolutely not and in fact quite the opposite because those who are saying don't act were saying well you shouldn't act because there's an election my view the view of the prime minister the view of our allies was we need to make our own decisions about what is right what is pursuing our values and our interests as a country it's interesting you mentioned allies because I'm sure I don't need to tell you as I understand the importance in this region of our ally in Israel the intelligence and security that's provided by Mossad you've just put them off side isn't it yeah I obviously won't get into I appreciate that but you have the hardly going to be friendly towards us for instance I won't get into the detail of internal security issues but I can

40:55reassure you Nick that we will continue to pursue our intelligence to secure the interests with Israel as with other allies and you know I did talk in the statement yesterday about taking seriously the threats Israel faces for example from Iran we announced new sanctions on Iran yesterday so part of being for a two-state solution is being clear about the occupation and why it is wrong and why we will act but also being clear about having no truck no truck at all with those who somehow want to erase Israel from the map and defending Israel's right to defend itself against against its hostile adversaries like Iran we've talked about sanctions and we obviously see what's been announced yet there elsewhere in the world there are also forms of ethnic cleansing and horror is going on such as China where it's thought up to four million people are enslaved some of them are the Uighur Muslims what sanctions will you be announcing against China later this week or next week well I do think it's important to challenge China on issues

41:58around the Uighurs around around human rights and we and we do that I do that in my conversations but when will you be announcing sanctions we look at all of we look at all of these issues so clearly you won't for a second well no I don't I don't say that but we might we know we we we keep all of these issues under review but but I do sort of say that the people who say well you know you know why weren't you acting in x place in the world we act consistently across the world pursuing our values let's get into the practical details of this I understand that it applies to products such as dates and olive oil how will it know if my dates or olive oil have come from the West Bank or another part of Israel well what we'll do what we will do with this sanctions regime is we will look by postcode at where the goods are coming from and it will be the responsibility of the companies that are importing into the UK to show that they are not coming from postcodes where settlements exist so we are confident we can implement this measure

43:06in a in a in a proper way and when will it be implemented what what I said yesterday in the commons is it will take six to nine months to come in the reason for that is we want to make sure we get it right we want to make it make sure that we do not affect so-called green line Israel so Israel within the 1967 borders not the occupied territories so and and we obviously be in conversation with the Jewish community about what I describe as religious exemptions if there are particular products that can only be obtained from the region so we will do this in a sensitive and proper way as as I'm sure I realize we'll do too you reference the Jewish community there is considerable concern and you spoke movingly about your Jewish background as well but you're aware that the chief rabbi says this was and I quote truly a dark day for British Jews he goes on to say it could further emboldened those at home and abroad who use hatred as a weapon against Jews your reaction to that well I speak as a proud British Jew and I don't believe it was a dark day for for British Jews obviously I have huge respect for the chief rabbi but I believe it must be

44:11possible to stand up for British values of the rule of law freedom and dignity let me just supremely educated man let me just let me just go ahead and stand up to anti-Semitism and the key point I made in my statement Nick is British Jews or Jews anywhere should not be held responsible for the actions of the government of Israel I know that is anti-Semitism I heard you say that I hope but you are a supremely educated well educated man and you know that's the best of you to say well you are but someone who is so blinded by hatred are you honestly expecting them to be able to see the division that you are correctly calling for they won't foreign secretary they will be to use the word they will be emboldened I don't believe they're right many of my listeners are bright not all your voters are not all of my listeners are and that's what we've got a guard against foreign secretary we absolutely have to guard against it but we cannot set our compass as a country by as you put it people blinded by hatred we have to deal with them we have to

45:16arrest them when they commit crimes and we have to do absolutely everything we we can to protect the Jewish community and that is what we will do that's been it or so together have you spoken with the chief rabbi foreign secretary yes I did I met him in August no no I'm sorry as subsequent to yesterday I haven't spoken to him since but I had a long and good discussion with him a couple of weeks back before I made this announcement because I and I reached out to the whole Jewish community did you indicate to us at Frem that you might be making this announcement yes I think he was aware of this in fact I think he he did a tweet actually after our meeting saying that he was against what he thought we were planning to do but as I say look I take the chief rabbi very seriously you know we will continue to have good relations with him lastly and as a senior representative of the government this is an off your brief but I have to put you the problems of their traffic control and the ground in flights maybe up to a thousand flight thousands of passengers this isn't the first time I know this follows to you falls to your colleague hide out his

46:17son what action will the government take against what seems to be a pattern of failure from that's well first of all I want to apologize to your listeners and others who have faced this terrible disruption Nick this should not be happening it should not happen again hide out exandre we calling in the head of nats this morning to demand an explanation of what happened and what steps nats are taking to prevent this kind of thing happening we we need our airports running we need our airplanes running normally we can't have this happening grateful for your time on such a busy day thank you for unsecretary of middle band appearing here on lbc this is lvc from global leading Britain's conversation with Nick Ferrari at breakfast want you five minutes after eight on Wednesday september the night as 15 airports were struck with hundreds if not a thousand delight flight delays thousands of people were inconvenienced there's one big question why is the man in charge of nats still in his post and we'll get into that in more

47:22detail and take more of your stories in other news back to the conversation I was just having with the foreign secretary about those sanctions tough starts taken by the UK reaction here from Israel government spokesman David Mensa told lbc yesterday and milliband and britain have sadly sacrificed what is really a domestic political issue inside the uk and then israel said very very clearly we're not putting up with it the gp fitnote system that allows young people to sign off work sit with conditions such as a dhd after a brief consultation is insane so says the government advise on the subject alan milburn he spoke to me earlier in the year about this problem with jobless youths for every 25 quid that we're spending on handing out benefits to young people we're only giving one pound in employment support to get them into work so we need welfare reform plus in the world of health are you one of the 1.7 million people who waited for more than 12 hours for a and e care last year dr. Freddie glider is an a and e consultant this is sort of how we live now on that knife edge of coping and operating but it doesn't take much for us to be massively

48:28over capacity nick borrari at breakfast call o3456060973 text 84850 nick borrari at breakfast on lbc chaos in the ground and chaos in the skies 15 airports hit by possibly up to a thousand different flights that were cancelled or delayed tens of thousands of passengers just to give you a brief idea according to flight radar 24 352 flights in and out of heath row are delayed that's daily average comes at about 1300 281 at gatwick their daily average is at 850 249 out of also 650 at Manchester and 101 out of 300 at Birmingham and it all comes down effectively to one man and i'm afraid it's not the first time there is a pattern of failure concerning that's and here's its chief executive martin roll speaking yesterday um we absolutely take responsibility for this we never want this sort of things to happen i completely understand how frustrating it is to passengers um nobody ever wants

49:32to be disrupted whether they're going on a holiday on a business trip trying to get home so we completely appreciate that and we unreservedly apologize we had a technical issue this afternoon which our engineers worked very hard to resolve um that technical issue took a while which took longer than we would normally have liked for it to get resolved these things are relatively rare and we resolved it to get back to our systems operating normally but of course there's a huge amounts disruption that's now built up in the system and we're working very closely now with airlines and airports to try to work through the night to make sure that we can get as many people traveling as possible relatively rare you owe nonsense it was a couple of years ago August bank over the bank holiday when there were 1600 cancel flights that affected 700 000 passengers and cost us sector 100 million pounds it's not that rare you've been in post and you're not getting it done it's hardly surprising therefore that some airlines are calling for him to go as the

50:33disruption is unacceptable head of whiz air UK of on Moynihan this is the third summer where we have had mass disruption so it should be a case of three strikes and anuride airlines are prepared and resilient and so the same should be expected of Nath particularly as they are critical national infrastructure and the chief executive at Naths Martin Rolf the bungler in chief at 1.4 million pounds last year 865 000 pounds which was for bonus for good performance honestly the proverb you couldn't make this up could you so why do we have to put up with it I put this to foreign secretary Ed Miliband first of all I want to apologise to your listeners and others who have faced this terrible disruption Nick this should not be happening it should not happen again hide Alexander we're calling in the head of Naths this morning to demand an exploration of what happened and what steps Naths are taking to prevent this kind of thing happening we need

51:34our airports running we need our airplanes running normally we can't have this happening so what is the picture on the ground and indeed in the skies right now let's go to LBC travel editor Joan Webb who joins me from her travel desk Joan yes Nick so lots of disruption still this morning even though the problem from yesterday has been fixed there's lots of planes in the wrong places obviously staff were working too many hours that they were legally allowed to do and the pilots that same rule applies so this morning there's a lot of cancellations lots of delays unfortunately it seems to be most of the problems are at Heathrow Airport and most of the problems seem to be with British Airways I'm looking at the departure board now and I can see so many British Airways flights have been cancelled throughout this morning for example a flight which should have been leaving at a 42 Paris from Heathrow that's been cancelled so it's not good news at all the advices wherever you're flying from with any airline check with your airline to see if your flight is either delayed or cancelled and then try and find out some alternatives from your airline

52:35Joan Webb reporting from the LBC travel desk 10 after eight let's bring into the conversation Alistair Rosenstein who is a former BA pilot and an aviation consultant what level of blame should be carried a lot of finger pointing going on at Martin Rove how far is that in your view good morning good morning Nick quite obviously the head of the National Air Traffic Service is responsible for what's happening one must ask the question though now this is the third time this has happened under his watch release I believe it's three times now you know they really should be a backup system some sort of backup system perhaps to the in this day and age the manual backup is not resilient enough but you know some second computer system I'm not an expert on this subject but you know quite frankly hundreds of thousands of people are disrupted again it does show just how reliant we are on modern technology now whilst Martin Rove didn't you know he's not a technician himself he's ahead of the whole thing but you know somebody has to carry the can for this he has

53:38on multiple cases said that he holds full responsibility for what's happening so perhaps this is the time to demonstrate that responsibility well it's worth noting he don't you join NATS Alistair after he led the team of engineers who kitted out the headquarters of swanic near south Hampton so it was on his watch and all the kit went in all the air all the miles that you've flown are you aware if we were having this conversation in New York or in Paris or in Geneva do they have backup systems elsewhere in the world Alistair well the straight answer is I'm afraid it's out of my my sphere expertise but this this sort of problem seems to be happening in Britain with NATS a little bit too often and it's certainly my experience I can't remember this happening anywhere else in the world I'm sure it probably has done but in my 40 years of flying it seems to be the British system that's failing Alistair Rosenstein is a former BA pilot aviation consultant 12 after eight listening clave Jackson who's founder of fly victor now that's a leading provider of on-demand

54:41private jet charter joins me now I don't know whether you Mr Jackson have any knowledge presumably running fly victor do we have similar problems in other European airports do they have backup systems how would a backup system be formulated good morning to you good morning Nick I'm firstly I don't run fly victor I used to own it I'm so sorry I'm no that's fine I'm now currently involved in cybersecurity and protecting UK infrastructure right I'm clearly have a keen interest in following what goes on in aviation having operated one of the UK's largest private aviation companies you know how they're doing about one four thousand flight movements a year so yes disruption is a big risk and the you know the two issues here are calling for Martin Rolfe's resignation and I understand why yeah I think we have to recognize that if a chief exec comes out and owns the problem that's half of the issue because so many don't so I commend

55:43them for that I think the issue where airlines are calling for resignation is very much about shaking up the underlying problem and part of that comes down to is this a computer failure is it a system failure was a decipher attack is the resilience or the failover structure sufficient to warrant the minimum destruction and do they practice these failovers so back to your previous your commentator is there a failover system well clearly there are failover systems the question is what part of the data processing capability failed was there a failover system for that and did it meet the minimum expected time before it kicked in and so lastly what needs to happen now well that's a very good question so I think following on the positives because it's very easy to bash and kick the positive here is if Martin has come forward and said look he's willing to step

56:49up and own the problem and his response for the problem what they need is a good quick technical investigation as to what failed and how the failover system was going to be this is the third rowing pipe yes but I know what you're saying by owning the problem but you can't get an officer saying we failed yeah no the they're two things first of all it's not the same problem three incidents in three years 23 25 and 26 you know and apparently all different technical failures so what we need now is a transparency around the failure now it may be the national security reasons you don't explain exactly that the back door was left open and anyone who walked in metaphorically but that could be briefed privately to the transport secretary and the airline bosses cloud jetson thank you you were the founder of flyvictor thank you for that let's go a minute

57:50later news get a call on morians in luishen the impact that this has had on is it your daughter is that right morians why make yeah yeah they're in burlin at the moment and let's fly out last night to come back into london yes comes gout work right and still it's been counter the can't get a flight until those these things there's no flight what's up tomorrow night yeah oh my god yeah no flight to call who's their carrier it's easy judge right and presumably they're they're her telling them are they and giving them a daily allowance so they can eat or whatever well they can put them up on a towel they haven't got a good alarm and there is no human being and what about her job your daughter is she can't be back for a job what's the story there well one's left king they're both at the university students oh the students right yeah so in one way it's worked out really well to get a few more days in burlin yeah it's a great city yeah yeah so

58:51but the human contact that their report was ridiculous finally someone came up gave him a phone number luckily we had to extra detail in there for romaine otherwise you went across to and it just like they had to do everything online what an absolute I'm at my heart goes out to these folks moron thank you the lines breaking up I will leave it there we'll leave that there but we're coming back to this story the accusations made were outrageous lies a hostile labor government systematically acting against the state of visoran the Israeli Foreigners of Gideon star after those sanctions 821 I haven't given enough attention to the emails and the texts that are coming let's stop the many coming on the situation regarding the British dance on Israel but let's get into them as well of course concerning traffic control cliven Norfolk funny how we get this issue with net system on the day the government announced sanctions against Israel just wait for them to say it was a cyber attack but it originated from Iran I think that's maybe a stretch

59:55Elizabeth in North London my son is very tech he said the whole of UK at once is got to be sabotage or military jamming tech as the traffic monitoring is non-centralized was run redundancy back up is it a cyber attack but well I have to say in fact the person who's caking a lot of the criticism chief executive of is a martin roffers said we will do a very very thorough investigation he says and I quote now we have at this point ruled out cyber we don't believe it was a cyber attack so we will take from that what we will aamian clap him easy jet I will mention easy jet by the way but all the airlines are involved with air and ba and everyone else who comes in and out of the UK Ryanair easy jet cancelled our flight home from tenorory south to lute and last night at five thirty pm didn't tell us about a new hotel or a new flight until one aam they booked us into a flight to Bristol on on Friday dear god it's Wednesday morning it is ridiculous they've totally abandoned us every time we try to speak to someone from easy jet they won't speak

1:00:58to us as we booked through easy jet holidays this is utter insanity I do think I'm picking up on the point the more inmate it must be so frustrating well a it's frustrating when these things happen isn't it in that the flight that you need to get out will the flight that you need to get back just suddenly vanishes it's cancelled there is an extraordinary lack of information now many would say well there's a lack of information because people don't know what's going on that so what can they say look we're sorry there are flights of council we've no idea it would appear the outage lasted somewhere in the region of three to four hours I've given you the numbers of how many hundreds of planes were affected but I do think it is a time like this when this extra ordinary way and we which we live so much of our lives now online then we don't talk to any real people as it were and when something like this bites I think it really does come home that's what we say now I just say I would feature some more of your texts and emails and the one that is notwithstanding the importance of particularly if you or someone you love or someone you know has been caught up in this

1:02:02the what's also going on of course with the Middle East actually in Beckenseald they had millibanders caused misery and pain for millions of ordinary families with his absolute nonsensical net zero plans now he's changed roles he's putting hundreds of thousands of British users at risk with his plans that out yesterday there seems to be no sense to this man same subject this would come in from Danielle ask Ed milliband if Israel would have built roads around the E1 area to not disconnect these shiru from from the West Bank let's come to your course on that we will come back to the air traffic dispute in a moment Jackson south end on sea jack you're on the radio good morning jack can you hear me hello sir jack you're on the radio go ahead sir hello good morning to you great show is always very sweet office Israel is our number one ally and defense first line of defense in that region in that region in the middle east and they're not just worth they're not just against Israel they're against

1:03:06America you pay France they do not like our way of life so when you say they I'm just a little confused who's they well I suppose uh point and facty wrong oh you mean like I'm sorry like air is such as Iran and Hamas and other countries and organizations sorry yeah got it yeah okay um in the light of the decision made by the British government I think that they should close the British embassy the Israeli government and I think they should withhold intelligence oh that would put people's lives at risk though jack it would well I mean the the phenomenal organization that is Mossad we rely on it so much in that area I hear what you're saying why will you want to endanger folks lives though lastly jack I don't want to endanger people's lives I just want the British government to realize how important Israel is as an ally to us lastly the language employed yesterday by Ed Miliband talking about ethnic cleansing terrorist actions how surprised

1:04:09you by that um I wasn't surprised really because it's it's it's it's it's been going on for years and it's also been going on in other countries as well such as China as a Tyson point but well you probably heard me challenge him there are thought to be five million people in slavery in China we have no sanctions against China and I asked foreign secretary Ed Miliband they'll be and he said well it's under constant review so you know that means nothing jack thank you let's hear a little bit more from Ed Miliband explaining the rationale behind the actions and the sanctions yesterday we believe that the only future the only secure future for both Israelis and Palestinians is a two-state solution we see that prospect being destroyed and we felt along with our international allies and many of our international allies who also acted yesterday that we couldn't continue to stand by in the face of this destruction and that's why we did what we did and we

1:05:10obviously thought in advance that it was possible um that Israel would unfortunately and regrettably react and that would be of course the closure of the consular Alex Gandlett is spokesperson for the Israeli embassy in London thank you for your time today sir um can we comment on what you think this is done for the security of safety of Jewish people living in this country is we approach your holiday period good morning good morning next shalom yes unfortunately it has created and continues to create an atmosphere of anti-Semitism and a provision of hate towards Jews and we've seen it throughout the last three years and it's just exasperating it the same as recognition of a Palestinian state was exactly a year ago on the eve of Oshushana again on the eve of the Jewish New Year so apparently it seems like a pattern or a model to do it on the eve of our most important holiday period about half an hour ago I was challenging foreign secretary had millaband over

1:06:14this and he explained to me the significance of what is called the E1 area or the E1 project he believed that he would effectively act as a sort of physical division or divisive line your response to that position well I understand that the position is that the the continuation of Palestinian territory well there isn't one between Judea Samaritan Gaza which is also in the same plans and uh in all plans submitted to Palestinians and to international partners in conversations in previous peace talks maladumim which is adjacent to e1 and e1 is the connecting tissue with Jerusalem was always part of Israel so this is completely untrue uh Israel also built roads or planning to build roads regarding uh the continuation of Palestinian territory and also I can tell you and that I can say very clearly these sanctions were decided way before

1:07:18e1 came on the table so this has really nothing to do with e1 uh that's a pretext how do you know that mr. gandler I know it because I know it's from around uh July that this was on the table before e1 became an issue so the idea that it would effectively cut off east Jerusalem is a totally bogus one yeah it has no connection to reality it's a pretext and it it's um uh it's uh a words that have no meaning really in reality on the ground as we linked up with you you might have heard one of my callers and this has been a very live issue in the previous hour the first hour of the show real concerns about the agents the Mossad agency and the close links Israelis without doubt our key ally in that region what does it done to that alliance i'll tell you this first of all there are many people in the uk war friends uh we don't want to abandon them the same way we want

1:08:18to keep a good relationship um this labor government is very specifically targeting Israel um but uh we know there are friends as well so our intelligence cooperation and our security cooperation uh we hope to keep it it will put a strain on our relationship in general that's for sure we're both fighting the same larger enemy which is Iran um on different fronts um unfortunately the the labor government has decided uh to strain this relationship even further some suggesting this is actually domestic politics the issues of the labor party house with folks deserting to the greens and of course a violation coming up in an area where they could be under pressure do you think there's a domestic element to this mr. Candler yeah so it seems from our assessments it seems like it is uh more of a domestic issue than anything that will affect

1:09:19reality on the ground in as well um and unfortunately you know the the timing couldn't have been worse if we're talking about the Jewish holidays that are coming but also we're talking about elections in as well uh this could have weighed if it was really up in regards to um uh stopping violence or e1 or anything this could have weighed at 50 days even less we are in the midst of uh probably one of the most important and consequential Israeli elections in years maybe decades uh and this happens on the eve of it 50 days and on the day that the lists close for candidates to submit themselves uh this was poorly planned uh poorly executed and unfortunately strains the relationship between the countries final question how safety you feel as a Jewish man in the UK now on fuel our cooperation with uh British authorities is good uh I think that both sides

1:10:28want people to be safe um unfortunately it creates a fertile ground these actions create a fertile ground for extremists to act upon uh thinking that they have the permission of the government because the government sides with them um I know it's not true uh unfortunately this is a byproduct grateful for your time and it's gone but thank you your spokesperson for the Israeli Embassy in London Nick Ferrari and breakfast on lbc call o3456060973 coming up a report more than 1.7 million patients waited for more than half a day 12 hours from emergency care despite concerns that long waits in a and e could be linked to an increased risk of death I think we can probably all work that bit out this by the way it's figures from the national audit office will be speaking on next but on that in just a moment but did that affect you someone you love someone you know let's take one more call for now we are going to come back to subit one more

1:11:30call now for the actions of the British government concerning Israel nix in elstry nick you're on the radio good morning good morning nix thanks very much for having me on um I don't haven't been on quite some time but I think recently the votes have spurred me to make contact I think what Ed Miliband has done has been very unfair in terms of its timing the sanctions that have been imposed it was mentioned that there were other sanctions which were implemented for a wrong why couldn't he do them against other countries and why couldn't he do them all on one day and I and why was the reference made specifically to Israel I think we all know the reasons I think it's because they've got problems in a bi election in North London well I completely agree with you but I also think there's another important thing to mention which I mentioned to a researcher I don't think it's a question of if I think it's a question when there's going to be the next terrorist attack and Mossad provides a very valuable

1:12:35source of information on intelligence to both the UK, America and various other countries what people also forget is that the threat of the extremist isn't just directly against British Jewry it's against all faiths globally now if you look at the events that we suffered nearly a year ago on the on a young kippur yes I want one of the most holiest days in the Jewish calendar yes I think that if something was to happen in London or wherever it's going to be it Mossad are aware of any intelligence I don't know whether they would be so keen now to disclose that information they're obviously in the let me ask you this I think they're incredibly professional men and women working at Mossad and with the agencies similar agency in the UK I think it when it comes to the safety of individuals won't they just move on from political point scoring or performative policies they'll realize they have to save lives Nick don't you think yes I do but also I think that Israelis and as a

1:13:39British Jew this is nothing to do with and I know that Ed Miliband is obviously Jewish by identity but his belief sometimes can be questionable but his the problem is all of this facade of anti-Sanism it is a mask for anti-Semitism. Nick I will leave it there thank you your right Mr Miliband of course is as he said as he opened his speech saying that he's proud to you I don't know he sort of practices the faith but we'll come back to that later well we talk about saving lives let's move to A&E units and the disturbing report by the way did this affect you and imagine you get a phone call now and you're I don't know you're loved one you're one of your children aghoft A&E you've effectively got to put a line through it let's be candid you've effectively got to put a line through the whole of this morning if not most of the day haven't you just sitting there offering support getting the car whatever whatever well now we learned from the national audit office so these official figures that for last year more than 1.7 million patients waited for more than 12 hours for emergency care despite as the report says and I think this is pretty obvious along A&E weight could be linked to

1:14:42an increased risk of death and probably work that out for ourselves so let's bring an expert into the conversation Dr Ian Higgins in this president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine joins me now thanks very much coming on board sir doctor the first question has to be why what is this down to in your view good morning morning Nick and I'm aware this isn't the first time that we've talked about this on your show so if we reiterate the causes of this problem so let's re-frame it a bit it's these are the long stays in emergency department are predominantly after you've been seen by nurses and doctors and you are waiting for a bed and the cause of these long stays are a lack of available beds in hospitals or lack of available alternatives if if if in if that's some way of treating you without without you coming into hospital so what we're talking about is long stays in emergency departments for patients who need to come in and what we absolutely know is that the figure is that at a bare minimum for every 72 patients who wait more than 12 hours of

1:15:47an emergency department there will be one excess death so if you then extrapolate that and you're talking about millions of patients here we're talking about we reckon in England alone around 15 to 16,000 patients die unnecessarily every year in association with these long stays and importantly what the National Order Office from Members of about money and what they're saying is that NHS England has essentially wasted huge sums of money throwing that money at the wrong part of the problem so they've been trying to say don't go to emergency departments do this do that and they've been encouraging emergency doctors and nurses to treat people with sore threads and hiccups quickly so they don't clog up our emergency departments whilst not fixing the root problems which are at the back end of our hospitals in those beds and alternative submission and that's that's for me the most important message in this report we already knew all those patients were waiting for beds we've discussed this before we already knew that thousands of them are dying unnecessarily but now we're also hearing the money that's been spent on trying to fix the

1:16:52problem has been thrown at the wrong part of the problem and the wrong patients and that's something we've been saying for years. Doctor who's in the beds that we require? So beds in hospitals are occupied predominantly either by sick people who come in for emergencies or people who are having treatment or operation so there's a mixture of those patients but what we do know is that many beds are occupied by patients who don't need to be in hospital anymore their treatment is finished or by patients who could have been treated at home and for who know in no alternatives so a really good example of that is you've said you know if you've got a call for your loved one so you've got a call for your loved one they come in they're off their legs they've got a urinary tract infection something that can be treated with some simple antibiotics and some simple care doesn't require all the expense and all the technology in a hospital but if you come in after five o'clock outside of nine to five Monday to Friday we may not even be able to get your home because there isn't the transport to do that let alone the support services to the

1:17:53crafty potentially at home for a few days or people to come and visit you and check your all-cat so there's all sorts of things in this problem but predominantly people in hospital beds are sick people or patients who were sick and no longer need to be there do we have enough men women and kit to go truly 24-7? I know so we're not arguing that the whole system should be working flat out 24-7 we emergency departments by their very nature open 24-7 but we are arguing that it's time for hospitals to work efficiently across the working week and not just Monday to Friday otherwise what happens is at the weekends everything just slows down and the whole thing clogs up and becomes incredibly dangerous then you spend the first part of the week trying to sort out the mess you've got yourself in at the weekend and then it all starts all over again so we're seeing this cycle of doom every week and then it gets even worse as as again we've said at a Christmas in the new year where the whole thing shuts down for two weeks over Christmas in the new year and you get this annual disaster over Christmas in the new year where you know everything is really

1:18:59it's like waiting through treacle and the people who suffer at the end of it are our poor patients in our EDs and our poor staff who feel you know that they're dealing with this problem all on their own so no not 24-7 but at least at the weekends and at least into the evenings because we know that patients arrive in those times too. Finally it's a rather pejorative term but you're at the cold face, the front line in the trenches whatever you want to say bed blockers what do you make of that expression doctor? Well I think the expression is trying to define a problem using the wrong words so bed blockers mean it suddenly becomes the patient's problem these that I don't know many people who will choose to stay in a hospital bed any longer and they need to what these are is patients who could be treated or managed elsewhere and not in hospital and that isn't the patient's fault on the whole this is because we haven't designed our systems we haven't resourced our systems and we don't actively manage our systems to help patients leave hospital where they need to

1:20:01so I think bed blockers a bit like corridor care it's a word which has taken root but I think it blames the patients rather than who we should be blaming which is our politicians and our health thanks to your time I hope you have a decent shift today or tomorrow when you're next on watch Dr Ian Higginson your president of the Royal College of Emergency Medicine thanks for your input on that mk you're going to be the first caller we will come to that we will of course also be looking at the domestic aspect of that big story concerning the British sanctions against Israel the chief rabbi yesterday condemned UK sanctions saying it was a dark day for British Jews but how is the community in London reacting? I'm LBC's Henry Riley in Golders Green plus in the next star but I'm afraid the fun ends for Tom Jones as he loses his voice he's dumped off that TV show he says it's down to age discrimination would that be right?

1:21:01Nick Ferrari at breakfast call 03456060973 11 minutes before eight is 11 minutes for nine 11 minutes before nine or eight 49 11 minutes before nine the numbers that spell out one big crisis in our A&E more than 1.7 million patients waited for more than 12 hours 500,000 patients waited more than 24 hours and as you've just heard from a prominent doctor in this field that equates to when you allow for the fact that in some instances that means sadly increases the risk of death 15 to 16,000 deaths in England you asked me to preserve your anonymity and I shall by husband had a spent in his hand a month ago today it was deep and infected it took 33 hours to get a bed in a specialist ward he had antibiotics in A&E and painkillers his spend was so bad the NHS moved into another ward and then lost him he was lost in the system he now is skin-grossed on half his hand you turn up at A&E for a spinter which was an accident

1:22:06and because of how bad it is your hand may never be the same again it is ridiculous M. Khenwins what's the story you can tell me good morning hi Nick hi it's M. Khen here how are you? I'm good thank you sir tell me what you can tell me about A&E was it you was it someone in your family someone who you were? Yeah it was my partner so we went to GP and she had abdominal pain and initially two appointments GP said just take some painkiller went again it's not going away they said what we don't know what to do go to A&E went to A&E waited for five hours that doctor come to a conclusion that it's quite urgent need to do a CT scan done the CT scan found assist and her left ovary 10cm that's pretty good don't you drive in that go ahead that's what you do yeah and we were worried and doctor said that she can't go home we need to treat her ASAP then another doctor came in

1:23:06and they said okay well we can't see it clearly what is it like is it filled with the a mass or a fluid or something else so we need to get an urgent MRI so the urgent MRI is like been scheduled for two days after the doctor said we need to keep her here for the observation the another doctor said that I think it's more of to do the you know the to get a bad there so ultimately your partner stated what was it what did it turn out to be there were we still waiting here the MRI MRI was done on a few weeks ago they saying that we haven't got the result for the MRI yet hang on where is she home no she's at work I'm sorry she's no longer in hospital is what I meant I'm sorry they never kept her they said well she can go home while we waiting for the urgent MRI result it will be here well hang on how how is the pain being managed is she being given medication

1:24:09of some sort she been given up you know antibiotics and painkillers but that's not helping and is she still in pain yes yes has the pain increased decreased or stayed the same it is stayed the same so what happens next well there's no communication I'm random you know I'm sending their messages on the on the portal again and again and that but there's no response yet and they said with they're still waiting for the MRIs results would you ever consider ringing the hospital up I did what happens when you call them well there's nobody you can call you can't can call the consentor consentor sorry whoever is there so far yeah yeah and you have to only call the hospital and they said they're still waiting for the result well let us know how it goes on we give my but I'm at least your wife is able to work so she's you know well enough to do that but it's in constant pain that doesn't seem the way forward I wish a well thank you mk

1:25:11Lizzy and Birmingham Lizzy what's your story about this good morning is it you or one of your family good morning yes um it's my first time called by the way some of it never please don't be there's nothing to thank you so much for reaching for the phone who are we talking about so it's my brother so my brother is severely disabled um and in January this year he went into A&E in the ambulance and the reason why what what had happened to him so he sometimes when he has a seizure he can breathe in his own vomit which is obviously not good for the lungs he has a tendency to see that's correct yeah and when he was in hospital actually A&E were pretty good but because of the hospital bed situation and that one of your previous uh called it says about there was basically no where for him to be in the hospital right so after the first night when he was in A&E um the second night he went to this sort of holding ward where you're only meant to be for one night maximum

1:26:15but actually it turned out that he had to stay in there for a week and because of that the care that he got was really awful I mean they made him so bad because he was in a holding ward is it because they weren't specifically trained do you see yeah exactly so there was just basically different doctors every single day who would would sort of not not understand a different doctor every day different nurses every day and that meant for example he was um needlessly kneel by mouth for three days oh my god yeah yeah yeah yeah um and then that obviously then in turn meant that he's medicine he could not board it's medicine so his seizures got worse uh yeah it was pretty terrible just because they didn't have any hospital beds where's he in the powers he now where is he now he's back home now um with my family um he's he's doing but he's doing okay he's okay very unsettling for everyone is he

1:27:18absolutely yeah yeah give him my best wishes you had nothing to be nervous about you are fantastic look forward to speaking you're going to hopefully about a happier story first time first class be like Lizzie get it off you just get it on the radio five to nine the time pat in Stafford Pat what's this all down to in your view my name well uh first start all the cottage hospitals throughout the come space we're closed they were I know what they were Pat just explain what a cottage hospital was to my listeners who who won't be well all minor injuries etc you know dressings when they had some sort of fall or something yeah you would go to the cottage hospital for you know different maybe it was like minor ailments and not every bed was surrounded with half a million pounds worth of kit because all the need is is that you're going to have some stitches and indeed sometimes you were discharged from a general hospital into a cottage hospital where

1:28:22again you didn't need a million pounds worth of kit they just monitored a few days and then you went home that's right I mean my own daughter um she was only a baby and had a convoction which was one of the most frightening things I'll ever come across and even my big bird is Scottish doctor it was time I was in tears because I thought it was some now done you know melancholy and he said as big as I am don't worry he said because if they are so frightening well our cottage hospital took from singing for three days and they were absolutely amazing they were able to you know it was serious yes don't get near on you know but they kept her in for three days and they were absolutely amazing as were so many cottage hospitals I remember them I've had

1:29:24treatment in them don't know whether my children did but they were so such a key part but I'm afraid they've all gone Pat thank you I've got to finish to get at least one more voicing and it's Rosie and Suddett Rosie what do you them tell me good morning I just wanted to make a mention that the subject you're talking about doesn't just affect adults it also affects babies all right so our son had open heart surgery last year because he was born with congenital heart disease it all went very well and it was a leading children's hospital in the UK the initial care was great the surgery went well recovery was you know it's not very linear it's very up and down then he was ready for discharge on a Friday and we were trying to get him home you know those are news ready to go home and then at the last minute they said we can't send you home because I can't have an exact reason X Y's there we need to just get another CT done and they said they couldn't do it until the Monday afternoon so they kept a six month old baby in hospital unnecessarily for an additional three nights when we could have been at home yeah and it all tracks back to this problem doesn't it when

1:30:29you first get in that how do you think the system needs to be rework lastly Rosie oh I think you've really touched on it it just cannot end it's not a nine to five industry is it it's not um it's not acceptable we will pay you out taxes and we pay a lot of money and people don't get ill Monday nine to five Rosie best wishes to you I'll finish to give one minute it'll have to be a minute Chrissy and Poplar your husband's in hospital what is the what's the story how is he Chrissy he's in hospital at the moment being a equipment they're working with the staff is absolutely a polling and in what ways it appore just expand a little Chrissy why is it appalling well the money says they're not working and I am they they're blood pressure bags are not fitting it's in a terrible state and you just can't get fully and what is your husband's condition why is he in hospital well we've been there you've got a heart condition

1:31:32right and and so we are 12 hours how long has he been in Chrissy he's been in too that he most that was been in I am now and is there an indication how long he'll be in it's difficult it's a moment I want they want to pay my car and we're in consultation with that but the staff are working on the pressure and they are quite many else they are is appalling well you've made your point Chrissy thank you can I wish your husband well and if it is a pacemaker I hope it can be fitted quickly in as successfully as possible thank you Chrissy we must move on we move on by coming back to that conversation Ed Miliband foreign secretary speaking with me earlier this morning defending his stance that could lead to anti-semitism it must be possible to stand up for British values of the rule of law for freedom and dignity and stand up to anti-semitism and on that point the chief

1:32:33rabbi yesterday condemned UK sanctions saying it was a dark day for British Jews but how is the community in London reacting I'm LBC's Henry Riley in gold as green plus the other big story is the fury over the air traffic control system collapse will be speaking with airline boss who says that Martin Rolf the boss of Nats has to go those stories and more after the 9th of on LBC this is LBC from global leading Britain's conversation with Nick Ferrarian breakfast go on in five minutes after night on Wednesday September the 9th the events that we talked about of course in the house of cons are actually targeted hundreds of miles away but what could the impact be those sanctions on Jewish people living in this country as of course they approach one of the key holidays we'll look at that in more detail and we are in a Jewish Father London will file a live report in other news pressure builds on this man chief executive of Nats or should that be not

1:33:35as we have yet a third outage Martin Rolf said yesterday in this update our system is now back up and running so we have resolved the issue and now control as the bear to help make sure that we can recover as fast as possible the best information in terms of how long this will take to resolve lies with the airlines the absurdity of sick note Britain highlighted by Alan Milburn he's been commissioned by the government of course to a full review into the problems of meat and youth and employment which was addressed in part by Chancellor John Healey this week because a person coming off benefits and into work saves the tax pay our money and that becomes a win-win when those people start paying tax themselves and the singing superstar who's lost his voice and the mouth why why why Tom Jones has been fired from that TV show ace discrimination he says this is the situation this hour Nick Ferrari at breakfast call 03456060973 text 84850 Nick Ferrari at breakfast on LBC

1:34:40for the chief Rabbi Sir for Immurvis it was a very dark day for British Jews other Jewish leaders and community leaders are gone further they've painted a target on our backs as one this is a reaction to the actions of course taken by the foreign secretary Ed Miliband he joined us in the first hour to explain the rationale but what does it mean as they approach Rosha Zana the key a key holiday for Jewish people what does it mean for those living in this country obviously this reporter joins Henry Riley joins me from Golders Green Henry morning what you got good morning Nick is estimated there are around 300,000 British Jews living in England and Wales and following yesterday's announcement there was a very serious warning which you referenced from the chief Rabbi Sir for Immurvis who called it a dark day for British Jews arguing that the announcement would embolden those who use hatred as a weapon against Jews who put his comments to the foreign secretary Ed Miliband earlier I don't believe it was a dark day for British Jews obviously I have huge respect for the chief Rabbi but I believe it must be possible to stand up for British values of the rule of law

1:35:47freedom and dignity and stand up to anti-semitism and the key point I made in my statement Nick is British Jews or Jews anywhere should not be held responsible for the actions of the government of Israel and that is anti-semitism we cannot set our compass as a country by as you put it people blinded by hatred we have to deal with them we have to arrest them when they commit crimes and we have to do absolutely everything we can to protect the Jewish community and that is what we will do now here in Golders Green the last census recorded that 49.9% of the population in this ward identified as Jewish Barlic Council is home to the largest Jewish population of any local authority in the UK I spoke earlier on with Councillor Peter Zinkin he's the leader of the Conservatives on the Council he represents Golders Green Ward and was previously the chair of the Golders Green Synagogue all yesterday's announcements by the foreign secretary did was further validate Jew hatred it will

1:36:53have no impact on Israel it will have no impact on the settlers but what it will do is validate for those in this country who hate Jews the ability to take action to reflect that hatred and that's why it was a dark day for the community and many here do live in fear in March for Hatzala Jewish community ambulances were targeted causing a million pounds worth of damage the next month in April two Jewish men were stabbed near the Golders Green Road I've been speaking with the community this morning to get their reaction it's very scary times to be Jewish in this area it's not going to help the community he's just trying to complete appease the Muslim votes and the left wing on the passing very dark day for British Jews and it's quite worrying quite frightening Israel was making a mistake since 1967 when we took this place and it's still occupied place and not part of Israel

1:37:56that's that's the stupid thing that Israel did I remember the morning after they could attack those free Palestine lit in all the bridges along the northern line when these actions are taken against Israel they affect us deeply local people in Golders Green speaking with obviously his Henry Riley let's bring to the conversation Dame Louise Elman now Dame Louise has a former Labour MP for Liverpool Riverside board member of Labour friends for Israel and joint independent chair of the board of deputies thank you for your time this morning what of the actions as we heard from Ed Milliband yesterday what have they done for the safety and security of Jews living in Britain good morning good morning I think they've made British Jews a lot less secure and settler violence and settler expansion must certainly be condemned but what we heard yesterday was a long I think die drive of accusing Israel and Israel alone for the lack of a peace process and the community security trusts have shown very clearly that when extreme antagonism towards Israel is projected it's in into counts for about 40% of the tax on British Jews and as we come

1:39:03up this weekend to the Jewish holy Thai holy days it's a year since people actually murdered in Heaton Park synagogue and the murder is shouting this is for Gaza so I think this is a very sad time they certainly want a peace process but to blame Israel and Israel alone the lack of a peace process and only make the situation worse here in this country hopefully you might have heard a little bit of miss about Mr Milliband's rationale either on my report then or yesterday in the House of Commons and he is of course quite rightly stridently condemning anti-semitism but do you get his argument as to why he did what he did when he did well I don't accept what he's saying and I suspect the timing of this short before a very important Israeli election where most of us do want to see a change of Israeli government is really to do more with domestic considerations and wanting more to more fenceful labor party I don't think it's seriously to do with getting peace any near in

1:40:03Israel and really the assume that we can get as responsible Palestinians working together with Israel is to find a solution to this problem than there will be to peace but not by what was said yesterday and certainly that very long diatribe blaming Israel and Israel alone the lack of progress is there some commentators say how real is the danger that this could in Israel actually move towards a more hard line government when perhaps Benjamin Neshtiñahu who was under considerable threat well the Neshtiñahu government isn't a threat at the moment but it is very precarious and there's certainly nothing is yet decided and I think it is a great concern that the statement that was made yesterday can only support people who support the Neshtiñahu government or governments of that type so the time is not good we really want to see a change in Israeli politics do you recognize this seems as Mr. Meliband told me in the first day of the show a lot of this focuses on the so-called E a E1 E1 aerial E1 construction in that it forms a sort of dividing line

1:41:08across the region do you accept that argument? No I'm listen very carefully yesterday to what was said in included in the Meliband statement was an acceptance of an advisory opinion from the international court of justice and that expanded the area of concern well away from that settlement in the West Bank to Jerusalem itself to the old city of Jerusalem and to other areas so potentially this is widening the hill area of sanctions and boycott well away from the one specific area where most concerns being expressed lastly if you were able to listen or watch yesterday you'll know that the foreign secretary opened his statement by referencing his late grandmother one of his labor colleagues tulip sedic said in her part in her speech she the grandmother would have been proud of him his actions today do you agree what tulip with agree with what tulip sedic said? Well I don't want to speculate on people's personal motivations

1:42:09but what I do say and I say very clearly it's what was said yesterday will not help the cause of peace it will simply make life harder and filled with more anxiety for British Jews as they go to the places of worship this weekend I wish you a happy holiday later this weekend into the weekend Dame Louis Elman thank you were labor MP and Liverpool Riverside Riverside now your board member of labor friends with Israel enjoy it independent chair of the board of deputies your calls coming in on that and we will get to those another story which we need to look at and which has been running well I've kind of say months it feels like years isn't it the problem of joblessness among our youths there's now reported Alan Milburn is furious with the sick note culture that allows so many of them to effectively be written off he talked me earlier in the year about the problem more generally for every 25 quid that we're spending on handing out benefits to young people we're only giving one pound in employment support to get them into work so we need welfare reform sick note culture more on that after this

1:43:16coming in this part of the coverage very much the domestic aspect of what we heard from the British government we have looked at what it means within relations with the in Britain Israel what does it mean for people here in UK David and Putney thank you for hanging on the line the point you want to make good morning good morning I think this relates a little bit to what Ali bought up a few weekends ago where Israel are kind of I'm Ali Mirage my colleague Ali Mirage Ali Mirage bought up a few weeks ago where Israel seemed to be very much so he seemed to be pointing out the fact that the idea for Israel the Israeli government are providing an environment to recreate the interfered and what we want to see in Britain is recognition of things that go against that so no no but you and I understand David but you straight away have cited what the Israeli government is doing what's that got to do with you living in gold as green so what I was about to say was what we are talking about Ed Miliband bought up is how it is targeting the gentrification of the West Bank no no I'll try again I'll try

1:44:23again okay so now we've gone to the West Bank which is a very key issue and there are some people of behaving in an utterly illegal fashion there but I'll try again a little Jewish boy or girl going to school in Stanford Hill or celebrating with him so anti-Semites will not need fuel for their fire if we are being very honest hate does not require a fuel to but if you look at the reports done by the CST the Community Security Trust you will see that when there are incidents in that area particularly things events such as October 7th anti-Semitism saw David yeah and we are discussing things that also happen outside of these incidents as well so when things do so there are attacks that occur outside of political movement times like these so we can understand that this will cause things but fuel to the fire is not required because hate will always continue to hate anti-Semites think this fuels the hate yes you don't think this will fuel the hatred from where I stand no

1:45:28from where I stand anti-Semitism anti-Semitism will continue to exist as long as the anti-Semites exist all right David thank you I you said I think there is a clear connection but I'm grateful for your input let's see what others make of it thank you Andy and Hackney thank you for hanging on the line Andy the point you want to make good morning all right good morning Nick nice to talk to you again yeah well I'm living right at the bottom edge of Stanford Hill on the border of Stoke Newington and the thing is is that the theology is at the core of this in many respects I mean we've got ultra orthodox Jews that live around here many of them and already which is the the sects that they're part of all the part of the branch just poses a better word they actually reject Zionism they see it as heresy right so they're being affected by their own state no right okay that's

1:46:33interesting and and they're being affected by this problem when it's absolutely nothing to do with them and it's down to again it's down to Zionism because Netanyahu has been going on about a greater Israel for years now since I've seen clips of him from the 17s talking about it and it's about expansionism making it a bigger area within the Middle East and again it's how can you justify that and allow it to happen now many other countries have got involved in this and it's difficult to describe but it's like this vicious circle and it's because Zionism in the end is designed to to increase the state and again there are plans as Zionism is a belief that the

1:47:33people of Israel deserve their own state it is yes and and the ultra orthodox Jews that live around here you know they they want the best for people in Israel right but historically they see it as heresy okay that's a fast way to take on it and he thank you I have to finish because we move to other stories but look after yourself I look forward speaking again more calls on that to come but let's go to other matters we come back here to the UK although we're talking about the UK aspect of the Israel story of course and the GP fitnote system allowing young people to sign off work sit with conditions such as ADHD after a brief consultation is insane so says Alan Milben of course has been commissioned by the government to look into the whole issue of needs not in education and climate or training family doctors issue nearly one million sick notes signing off people mental hitherto issues last year GPs are responsible for designing people should be off work those given the notes are able to claim sick pay and in other instances qualify for welfare payments

1:48:34Mr Milben was speaking on the trip to the Netherlands he was accompanied by Sir Gareth Sartke the former England football coach now in the Netherlands fewer than five percent of young people are needs the percentage here in the United Kingdom across the whole of the country is 13.6 the fitnote thing is just bloody in sances Alan Milben you get a fitnote you enter the welfare system we know once you enter the system you get a health and disability benefit you stand a 50% chance of being on health and disability if you get it today in 15 years time to Leanne Maskell who is author of ADHD and A to Z is a coach in the air and director of ADHD works what Mr Milben is saying what Mr Milben is saying what Mr Milben is saying in part is it's too easy to get one of these notes would you concur good morning good morning I think it would be a really nice wild in which people were able to get any kind of validation that they are struggling especially in relation to ADHD because ADHD is not a sickness and so a GP wouldn't really be able to put that on a kind of note

1:49:39signing them off work and then these notes themselves also don't actually equate to people having benefits of being in the welfare system it's just the opposite to what Mr Milben is saying Leanne I know which is quite surprising given his background well so you don't qualify for benefits if you get a note saying you have ADHD no you do you qualify for statutory sick pay which is a 124 week what why would you seek to miss a repressor at the case oh because I have ADHD obviously I'm not a rep representing I'm saying that that doesn't get benefits and then you accept that you do get benefits well I think statutory sick pay is benefits I think that's pay for anyone regardless of any health problem that they have right sick but it's ADHD of course which is but that exactly hair is the point which is what I'm saying ADHD is not a sickness or an illness you can't cure someone of that ADHD so sickness I would imagine they're probably putting on their burnout or stress or

1:50:46depression or anxiety something that is going to change because that is why someone would be paid sick pay because presumably they're going to go back to work unlike things like personal independence payments which are not related to whether someone is in work or off of work do you recognise when Mr Milben said I'm quoting now most importantly is life chances disaster we're ruining the life chances of these young people those who have these ADHD how do you react to that comment well I'd love to know what he thinks that the GPU should do instead and what he thinks is going wrong hair why they are seeking fit notes signing them off work because that's really the question that they should be asking how much do you think this issue of ADHD is affecting that number of what are called needs not employment education or training more than one million one million and fifty thousand Leanne how much does that affect that I think it probably thinks it quite a lot here I'm in Australia now and in Queensland the police won't accept any applicants

1:51:49who have ADHD if they take medication and these kinds of feelings I think conversations like the one mean you're having and these comments themselves they really stir a lot of misunderstanding in society and a lot of well young people are not able to work and a lot of very understandable reluctance and fear from employers about even hiring young people in the first place and then these young people who have been through covid and through you know they've grown up with chat GPT and AI etc and obviously lots of different health conditions maybe ADHD included but whatever it is is obviously something going wrong that's not the fault of either of those two groups of people but the system that they're in how is the system creating that would you say I would imagine because it's so difficult to even get a job in the first place and then I would imagine because for example if you can't work near your workplace and they're forcing you to go into the office then there's probably

1:52:50something wrong with the workplace and the fact that it requires them to be there okay you said there is confusion how does that confusion need to be cleared up could you just clarify which you said there was confusion about people with ADHD not being able to enter the workplace what do people what do more people need to learn about the condition in your view Leon I think that it's not a mental illness it's not a problem it's not a reason to be signed off work or not be able to do a certain job it's just part of her person as and that will present differently for everyone and so if there is an issue with someone in the workplace that means they can't work look at what that issue is and what needs to change and what needs fixing it's just the problem is that that will be an individual discussion not a blanket one size fits all okay and to too many people allow this almost mean that they don't apply themselves to work I couldn't answer that I think

1:53:50conversations like this can do a lot of damage in terms of stoking stigma on both sides but like for me and all you know what people are going on in their day-to-day lives just like I said it's an individual issue you are you are an ADHD coach well I know a lot of people are in work I've coached people I've trained companies Disney Bank of America people you're here so it does have a lot of a fair question to ask whether this is a hindrance for these folks to work well no I think no I think they're doing a good job I run all kinds of industries I think I've worked with the Met Police in England and they have a lot of brilliant police officers with ADHD menu myself I've written five books I have a law degree I used to work at the law society like it's just understanding it like I said it's not a problem and something to mix within the person but just part of who they are and that can result in great strength but also great challenges that it's just about creating the environment where someone can actually thrive okay grateful for time today Liam masculine thank you on ADHD coach you wrote ADHD and A to Z of course coming in on that calls also

1:54:55coming in for the boss of Nats to stand down Martin Rolf after that third of course effectively wipe out left thousands of planes well at least a thousand pain grounded or stranded in mid-air effectively in thousands of passengers inconvenience Ryan airs Neil McMurne says despite promises reports and assurances that they would fix the systems once again Nats under Martin Rolf's leadership have failed UK travelers and he Mr McMurne will join me after this Nick Ferrari at breakfast call 03456060973 back to the problem of course the airlines and the issues around 15 British airports from a person who loves this number so it's 15 airports was around one o'clock yesterday morning it all started to go wrong four or five hours before it was sold about sorted by which time maybe up to a thousand flights have been cancelled tens of thousands of passes is inconvenience one big problem then one big problem for this man we absolutely take responsibility for this we

1:55:57never want this sort of things to happen I completely understand how frustrating it is for passengers nobody ever wants to be disrupted whether they're going on holiday on a business trip trying to get home so we completely appreciate that and we unreservedly apologies we had a technical issue this afternoon which our engineers worked very hard to resolve that technical issue took a while it took longer than we would normally have liked Fritz get resolved these things are relatively rare and we resolved it to get back to our systems operating normally but of course there's a huge amounts disruption that's now built up in the system and we're working very closely now with airlines and airports to try to work through the night to make sure that we can get as many people traveling as possible now that's Martin Rolf who's the chief executive of Natsis interesting he would mention the engineers there he joined Nats in 2012 he led the team of engineers who fitted out the headquarters at Swanek near Southampton so he should have his greater knowledge of anyone and this isn't the first time there've been a series of failures some of you may recall as recent is

1:56:57August 2023 the bank holiday around 1600 flights were cancelled 700,000 passengers were affected and the aviation sector lost up to 100 million pounds airlines now according for more direct action possibly even for the head of the Natsis boss Martin Rolf let's put some of that to Neil McMahon whose chief operations officer Ryan there if we can start if we count as a man how inconvenience for you and your colleagues with your airline yesterday good morning morning Nick yeah very inconvenienced right I cancelled over 200 flights with a thousand flights delayed as a result of yet again another ATC failure in the UK as you mentioned this very similar event happened in August 2023 with a similar event last year which delayed and cancelled hundreds of flights and here we are again systems not being fixed no backup and UK passengers left facing huge disruption

1:57:58because Nats do not invest in resilience and Martin Rolf has delivered a pattern of failure over the last number of years well let's talk about the business footing you're absolutely right of course to refer to the passengers to your clients but also you and other airlines your planes are all in the wrong place your crews are in the wrong place I can't imagine this is going to be resolved in a you know within a few hours what does Nats need to do from this and is is Mr. Rolf fit for purpose well in terms of our operation we're going to operate a full a full flight schedule today and we had as you said we had aircraft across the network 20 aircraft in the wrong place overnight but we have invested very heavily in Ryanair of the last number of years of resilience and we are expecting to operate a full flight schedule today and what should Martin Rolf do Martin Rolf should go meet the transport secretaries afternoon and resign it is clear he is hugely well paid he's on about one and a half million pounds a year and he is presented over a pattern of failures he promised the UK transport committee in October 2023 that this could never happen again

1:59:02that they invested in resilience and it couldn't and less than three years later here we are with more passengers disrupted millions upon millions of pounds worth of damages to airlines passengers missing vital family events all because Nats don't invest in resilience like last year Nats invested paid a dividend of 170 million pounds partly to the UK ex-Jekker and partly to order airlines why was that money not invested in a backup system why don't they invest in resilience and more staff to ensure that when there are problems they can fall back on the and use a backup system that actually works the outage you refer Neil 2023 it costs the entire sector around 100 million pounds is it too early to work out the cost of yesterday for Ryanair is that some of your councils will come to you in a couple of days time exactly yes too worried but even we can be sure it will be it will run into the millions and millions in terms of disruption as I said we had over two wonderfights cancelled thousands of passengers disrupted we love we're putting

2:00:05passengers open hotels they're going to submit expenses where they get their own hotels and it's just a complete mess and it's utterly avoidable we don't see these events happening across Europe well that was what I was going to ask you Neil Ryanair is a massive airline would you ever see situations like this you go in and out of Rome you go in and out of Paris Brussels do you see situations like that elsewhere in Europe we've seen nothing similar across Europe we have had isolated instances across Europe but nothing at the scale of the Nats failures we've seen so we haven't seen any in Italy that has taken down and like this took down all of UK airspace you know there was only handful of flights being able to go we haven't seen this initially we haven't seen it in France we haven't seen it in Spain we haven't seen in Ireland we haven't seen it in Germany this is a UK problem and that's what's really frustrating is because we continue to ask that they invest in resilience the airlines we paid not over a hundred million pounds they have the money to invest in resilience and instead they pay huge dividends and it was rather than investing

2:01:08and the people who end up disroped in our UK passengers and the hit that you and other airlines take there's no recompense from Nats you just have to write that off along with British Airways and all the others Nats should be repaying all the airlines for the cost however due to the UK the regulatory scheme that they have they get away effectively Scott free they pay a tiny there's a tiny percentage of fees go to Nats due to their performance but it's so small they don't even account for it and airlines have to pick up the bill as you said a hundred million pounds in August 2023 we think that it's only right that Nats pay do the horrible thing and pay for the damage they caused lastly we're talking about money you reference mr. of his salary last year was 1.4 million pounds Neil 553 thousand pounds base 865 thousand pounds in part reward for good performance bonus and a reaction on the good performance bonus Neil it's almost laughable Nick and we have seen our costs have gone up by almost 30% in the UK over the last number of years

2:02:13and the delays go you think if you pay more you get a better service but our delays are up 70% this year like it is laughable and what we're saying is it's clear the problem is right at the top and it's up to the Nats forward and the UK transport secretary to make a change and put somebody in charge that will deliver a double liable service that the airlines want and the passengers want Neil grateful for your time this morning you're a busy man I'm sure Neil McMan is Chief Operations Officer with Ryan air they're getting back in business as he said let's get to the business of taking calls we're going to fill this john in heart for sure this is the ADH story ADHD story I'm sorry I was discussing just for the news john the point you want to make hello hi hi Nick so I'm a GP and this is something that quite frustrates me what does it feel like the system is just designed for essentially a picnic culture right so if I take my working day I'd say I have to end up doing about five to six six six today how many of those will be for ADHD or connected to emotional issues

2:03:18I'd say a reasonable number it's hard to give a percentage but I'd probably 20 to 30 percent maybe more okay whenever you challenge any sick note it's very difficult and you can get a complaint against yourself and I've tried to challenge them in the past and realize this a futile effort and it gets very difficult and I think we're creating culture of this because I get told by countless patients who like they don't have a job and then go on to the job center and they say that they've been advised by the job center to make sure they get sick note so they can get more paid get paid more by the day and like obviously with one or two patients saying that maybe it's just been making up to try and get the sick note but that is a common thing I'll buy off in here well here's a survey that speaks entirely of what you're saying John which is in a survey of GPs last year 752 GPs 540 said they had never refused a quest to

2:04:19sign someone off with mental health issues 540 over 752 yeah so I mean it's the system that if you're as a GP is very difficult to challenge a sick note request and you put yourself at a lot of risk if you do but there's other things there like the system's not really designed for this if you're going to say someone sick really you need an occupational health doctor so down a functional assessment you assess the condition you assess the impact on their life you assess the workplace but we're actually using this in our system that's just a generic oh you've got x, y and z condition and therefore you can't work like for example if you've got back pain doesn't necessarily mean you can't do a job where you're not having to list stuff but we're just using these generic sickness and it's not for the actual job because generally these are the number of people who are not in work and it's to justify them not being in work and being able to get extra pay whilst not in work finally let's just walk this through if I come and present myself to you later today in your search and say I've got ADHD what sort of questions you're going

2:05:20to ask me what are you going to try and quiet what are you trying to find out about me so in an ideal world what would happen is well in an ideal world there would be a functional assessment of how's it affecting you but I don't think that ever happens I think in most cases there would be the situation where you just check if the diagnosis exists in the notes at some point and if it does someone gets the signal but I've even had situations where like someone just said look I want a signal for ADHD and x, y, z and they don't have those diagnoses in the notes and then you challenge I challenge them I said look we don't even have these diagnoses you never sort of help to these things and obviously I've looked at can we help you for these problems can we get a diagnosis etc but then that results in complaint and what we often find is that you're getting a request for a signal for whatever the condition is but they're not actually seeking help for that condition to be asked is be like okay what's the poor can we put in so just put in the example back pain is the

2:06:22request of that pain but we're not seeing you for that pain we're not referring you to physiotherapist for that pain we're not investigating the that pain it's just a request for a wrong what that pain therefore I can't work and it I think over the last five years has been a massive uplifting list well you're right nearly one million sick notes signing people off with mental health issues last year very much what you were describing John which is not your real name thanks the work you do if you have ADHD what does it mean or you have someone your family and you hear it being discussing these sentences and you think they have no idea what it's actually like this is so unfair do give me a call on that Jerry you've called me about those sanctions and we're going to get into that and it left the mood a little bit after we were talking about sanctions and cancelled flights and ADHD uh unfortunately this big superstar has lost his voice well I'll tell you what's new Tommy Lossi John on the voice and you're putting it down to AIDS discrimination and we'll look at that in more detail after this

2:07:52fun it is of course the great Saton Jones now the show that he was on the voice UK returned last Saturday after a two year break but it has now been announced it will have to continue without Saton here with the details some of the background Charlie girling obviously show his editor joins me in the studio Charlie morning which job good morning Nick I have to say that it is an unusual perhaps for this to be the kind of story that involves a man and not a woman we've seen some very high profile women claim that they're sort of muscled out of jobs on television or you know public facing because of their age now Tom Jones Saton Jones I would say is 86 years old and obviously has been working with the voice for a very long time he's been on the show in some format since

2:08:56its inception obviously it was on the BBC then moved over to ITV a few years ago but it's been reported for a while he's not going to be involved as involved in this new series and he is confirmed the news himself he wrote on Instagram and they're quite sort of excoriating post on social media and I also quite enjoy that I think there's something about maybe older stars who perhaps didn't grow up with media training who are not afraid to to say it like it is and you know aren't talked down by their agents before going online to post and he basically said I'll paraphrase but he said I didn't want to leave the voice I love the show I really appreciate the audience ITV made this decision and and he also he ends saying the only thing I know right now is that there's never a good time to fire an 86 year old who's pretty good at his job how successful is the voice I've been racking my brain have they ever created a quote created a star I would say not Nick I would say not and I you know you look at obviously the X factor which is also as we know returning soon and the X factor you know you had the likes of one direction obviously one of the biggest boy bands

2:09:59in the world you had little mix you had even people like Oli Merz who obviously then has since been a judge on the voice but there was just something about and of course I'm very fond of those boys I do see them around the industry still sometimes very entertaining still good good company on a night out but there was something about the X factor that that did always seem to produce those big names and had those you know there was a there was a point in the sort of late naughties where the X factor was guaranteed the Christmas number one it was always that one you can see the BBC yet we're going to we're going to recreate this it just never had to paraphrase the X factor it never had that that show is sparkle and lastly the opening night I understand last Saturday two year break an audience of two million the lowest opening night since I TV took it back in 2017 writing on the wall for this show perhaps I would say so I don't think they're going to be able to get away with that for much longer the audience have had their say about the voice Charlie Gurling obviously showbiz at their joining the studio thanks for that let's talk the issue of ADHD and how

2:11:01it's been portrayed now in some quarters as being effectively part of the sick note culture Michael and Stoke on trend what do you say Michael good morning morning I spoke to one about you can call sick sick sick note culture yep yep yep that's only for people who want it to be sick called name sick no yeah the fact of it is that I am very little understanding one of the until it actually it's home and restored that my how did it hit home who is it who has it might I ask Michael it's my son yeah I'm the one who restored and I'm as son as 28 my youngest daughter is 75 it was completely messed throughout school and the air is after it it's every last few years that it's actually been recognised in them and they've been tested and it's not small small thing you have to travel you have to travel literally off off the way across the

2:12:01country just just for different assessments for it and it's it's people in different ways is that my son is completely opposite from the ways of ex-mador to personas in full-time route how old is your boy 28 and my dad's older daughter is 25 oh right so not a lot and so the boy is in work and doing okay well he's trying his best and very recently he loves the job he's doing now and he's been an actor for almost a year but what is he what is he does Michael what is it that he does what is it what's he what's he what's he doing what line just not the company works so what is it that he does it's it's a given the company way really he actually makes earth muvers and oh wow okay that's pretty cool all the watch of it you know um but as with me son it looks literally

2:13:03the phone is off or it's under message to us can get me a can't cope this uh right but you'll be having physical meltdowns where does it'll have to go to the toilet because it's not dealt with the teddy more and it it just be a thousand tears oh god lad what about your daughter now she knows she doesn't say anything but in respect to the daughter she is completely the opposite she can't work because she can't it's what take the um the not they didn't work environment it's people around it right right and what they say smoother do they is is that what it is it is a spook in it is it's a case that she let's a brain will literally go into a sort of a meltdown and you have to it all get sometimes you can get it out of it the same day all the times it can take days or even a week just to get it back into a formed normality where she can communicate whether you um you know how just lastly how understanding are people who

2:14:10don't have ADHD or don't have anyone in their families with the condition how understanding of these other people Michael um completely misunderstanding because I don't people don't actually understand the relationship what the condition has to people because it affects them in different ways and unless it's actually a hit zone whether you're yourself or with the children or someone else and you actually have to then worry about it read up about it and study it and just to understand it best wishes to your children Michael thank you for sharing so much I wish them well or is the boy particularly in his employment names and lester what can you tell me name good morning hi good morning um yeah very similar to your previous um Carla I've got a daughter that's 13 it's currently waiting for um her ADHD and autistic diagnosis and I think when I look forward to the workplace I do worry about how her career is going to be like um I've actually got experience managing and I've actually employed somebody with autism now myself because I've got an understanding

2:15:13of my daughter actually see ADHD and autism as superpowers and you've just as a manager got to diversify as well as companies as to how you manage people okay how can you use that to the most benefits for the employee and the company so I think from the employee from every employee not just people with ADHD and autism I think you like I said before I have to identify I diversify and recognise people's skillsets um not manage everybody in a militant way which is where I think skills do you like children down yeah but how do you amplify their abilities can you give an example of where they can exceed what would perhaps be other folks expectations sure so in in I uh I do a corporate sales role the chapter I employed who was heavily autistic is very literal and in terms of the sales skill that's a very promising skill because he will continue follow up he will get deals done so you just have to work to their strengths and also support the emotional side of ADHD and autism and recognise that you know one one one one one one size doesn't

2:16:16fiddle lastly what level of understanding is that do you think from those who don't have the condition lastly name I don't think there is because you can't physically see it people don't understand it unless you have somebody in your life that does have it then you don't understand the overwhelming the lack of resilient struggles with emotional strengths and friendships you have the last word and he's thank you best wishes to her who done for another day if you missed the show listen back on the free global player app or the lbc app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinion download the official lbc app for free from your app store now that's it james o' brine's the other side of the news here on lbc i'll be back with you tomorrow morning from seven meantime stay safe this has been a global production