It's All About the Money, Honey!

Money, money, money! We’re in 406 BCE and although its well before ABBA's pop hit, let's this be a small hint of things to come. Rome finds itself in a bit of a tricky situation. Not only are they navigating the fallout of their conflict with the Volscians, but with the long running tensions with Veii seem to be coming to a head.

Episode 148 – It's All About the Money, Honey!

There’s a distinct lack of enthusiasm for more fighting from the people who would be levied. Things are not looking positive on the morale front! Combine that with some meddlesome tribunes of the plebs and the recipe is ripe for a changing time ahead.

What if we paid you?

The big topic that makes the 406 stand out is the assertion in some ancient sources that this year is the first time the Roman soldiers receive pay for their service. That’s right, Rome’s been trundling along for centuries without offering those who risk life and limb anything but the potential thrill of booty. But is this claim to be believed? We consider some of the challenges.

The Geography of Central Italy

Spoiler alert! Rome extends their sphere of influence further into Volscian territory in 406. Anxur is on the coast just to the east of Circeii. Map below for reference for just how afar afield Anxur is from Rome! Tune in for all the tactical details.

Map of Central Italy. Source Wikimedia Commons.

Things to Listen Out For

• Some tunic-ripping action!
• The introduction of Anxur
• Sound as a military tactic
• The power of ladders
• Grumpy tribunes

Our Players for 406 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Publius Cornelius M. f. L. n. Rutilus Cossus (Pat)
• Gnaeus Cornelius P. f. A. n. Cossus (Pat)
• Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius M. f. Q. n. Ambustus (Pat). NB Diodorus and the Fasti Capitolini have Numerius as the praenomen
• Lucius Valerius L. f. P. n. Potitus (Pat)

Legate

• Gaius Servilius Ahala (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy 4.58-59
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 14.12.1; Ennius’ Annales 4.162 V; Florus 1.6.8; Fasti Capitolini for 406 BCE
• Bradley, G. 2020. Early Rome to 290 BC (Edinburgh University Press).
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Lomas, Kathryn (2018). The rise of Rome. History of the Ancient World. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. doi:10.4159/9780674919938. ISBN978-0-674-65965-0. S2CID239349186.
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Credits

Our theme music was composed by Bettina Joy de Guzman.

The view of Anxur (known today as Terracina) from the sea. The cliff is VERY dramatic! At the top you can see the ruins of the Temple of Jupiter Anxur, which was built sometime in the mid-second to mid-first century BCE.
Photo by Gugli73 via Wikimedia Commons.

Automated Transcript

Lightly edited for Latin terminology and to support our wonderful Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:12
Welcome to the Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:15
We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:20
Everything from political scandals to love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:30
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different ancient authors and comparing their accounts.

Dr Rad 0:41
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:02
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians and I am one of your hosts, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:11
And I am Dr. Rad relieved that you know who you are, Dr. G.

Dr G 1:16
This time, for once.

Dr Rad 1:18
Call back to an episode a couple of months ago?

Dr G 1:22
Yes, well, you know, I mean, the thing is, so we are tracing the history of Rome, from the founding of the city. And we are in what I think is going to be a very exciting year, because we're going to be talking about 406 BCE.

Dr Rad 1:43
We certainly are, but before we get into that, of course, Dr. G, I would like to recap where we were in 407 and I can do that pretty succinctly because not a huge amount happened.

Dr G 1:55
I was gonna say you really have to do the recap for 407 because I don't know anything.

Dr Rad 2:01
Well, we got the hint that something was happening with me it was very peaceful, very diplomatic. But they is once again being mentioned which okay, I mean, there's been some big conflicts with Veii and you know, issues with the Etruscans in the past, but it's been a little bit quieter for the last couple of decades. But they did appear on the horizon in our last episode, but nothing very exciting really happened. And then we of course had the slaughter at Verrugo, which I'm sure you remember because I know you hate that place name.

Dr G 2:35
I do. I mean, it just doesn't roll off the tongue nicely.

Dr Rad 2:41
Verrugo, Verrugo.

Dr G 2:41
Stop that, I'm shivering. Oh, okay. So Rome has this issue with Verrugo.

Dr Rad 2:50
It did.

Dr G 2:51
And that's that's kind of it.

Dr Rad 2:54
Yeah. Basically, they recently captured it. And they were feeling very smug. And then it got captured back by the Volscians, and the Aequians. And it wasn't a great Look, it wasn't a great Look, because they probably could have stopped that from happening if they'd been a little bit more on the ball.

Dr G 3:12
I was gonna say if they had sent a full military force.

Dr Rad 3:15
Yeah, well, I mean, they sent a military force, but they were just like, late. It was kind of the issue that they took their sweet time. And that poor little garrison out there. Killed.

Dr G 3:29
Well.

Dr Rad 3:29
All dead.

Dr G 3:31
Oh no, Dear Marcia, I write to you as I die on this battlefield.

Dr Rad 3:40
The blood is leaking from my veins, but my heart still pumps for you.

Dr G 3:50
The Romance.

Dr Rad 3:50
I know.

Dr G 3:52
All right. Well, I think that it is time then 406 BCE.

It's 406 BCE, and we have military tribunes with consular power. There are four of them, which is a pretty standard number at this point in time. We have Publius Cornelius Rutilus Cossus.

Dr Rad 4:46
I believe we know that name from recent years.

Dr G 4:50
Perhaps we do, perhaps we do certainly the Rutilii Cossi as a group as a sort of gens and then that particular family line well own at this point. And we also have Gnaeus Cornelius Cossus. So some more Cornelii in there. We also have a guy called Numerius or Gnaeus Fabius Ambustus.

Dr Rad 5:18
Ah haaa

Dr G 5:21
Numerius seems to be the more preferred of the praenomens here.

Dr Rad 5:25
Okay.

Dr G 5:27
Livy might disagree. We'll see.

Dr Rad 5:28
I'm not going to repeat my joke from last time.

Dr G 5:30
Booo! And Lucius Valerius Potitus.

Dr Rad 5:38
Another familiar name.

Dr G 5:39
Yes. Previously consular tribune in 414. And will also go on to hold that role in the future as well. Watch this space.

Dr Rad 5:49
Okay,

Dr G 5:49
So far what I can tell you so far is Potitus doesn't die.

Dr Rad 5:55
Spoliers! Yeah.

Dr G 5:57
And we also have a legate who has survived. So a military legate, we don't really know what they do right now. They're in charge of troops.

Dr Rad 6:05
We don't know what military tribunes do right now!

Dr G 6:07
We don't really know a lot. All right. But here we are. And we have Gaius Servilius Ahala Ahala Ahala. And you will definitely recognize this name because he was a military tribute in regards to the power in 408 and 407. So as early as last year, he was hanging around.

Dr Rad 6:36
So the Ahala definitely making a comeback through this particular man.

Dr G 6:40
They are they definitely are. So that's all the names that I've got. And I do have some details about this year. But I feel like Livy probably has a narrative to hook some of those details into so I'm keen to see what he's got.

Dr Rad 6:57
Okay, well, Dr. G, get ready to strap yourself in for what is going to be an epic year. So epic. I may need two episodes to tell you about it. And it's been a while it's been a while since we've had a year I think quite this epic. I mean, 409 saw some big developments. But this is action packed.

Dr G 7:19
Stuff happens

Dr Rad 7:20
Stuff does, stuff does happen. It does, indeed. Now, a lot of the stuff that happens is connected with Veii. So last episode, we talked about the fact that allegedly, the truce between Veii and Rome that had been established in their previous conflict was running out. And so everyone was like, We got to renew it. Gotta get that least happening again.

Dr G 7:45
Hurry hurry!

Dr Rad 7:46
Yeah. But 406 is generally given in our ancient sources as the year in which war with Veii began again.

Dr G 7:59
Now, okay, that sounds momentous.

Dr Rad 8:02
Yes. Now, it's not necessarily obviously all going to be the action of that war in this year, because this is going to be a 10 year conflict or so we are led to believe.

Dr G 8:14
Oh goodness, all right. Strap myself in indeed.

Dr Rad 8:17
Yeah. Now look, obviously, as I highlighted last time, dates, the amount of time that the Romans are going to go to war. It's a little bit, it's a little bit questionable at this point in time. Do they want it to go for 10 years because the Trojan War allegedly lasted for 10 years? Maybe? Who am I to say? Who am I?

Dr G 8:38
You telling me Rome views its conflict with Veii in-? Like in Trojan War terms? It's Homeric in its scope. Wow. All right. Okay.

Dr Rad 8:38
Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of that. So I'm just I'm just highlighting that now. Just to begin, what will be a constant warning, every episode I'm going to have to say this or now on that. Maybe the dates are off. Maybe it didn't last as long maybe it lasted longer really held this? Certainly not us, and certainly not Livy. Yeah. Anyway. So there are many ways we're starting in 406, a conflict that apparently is going to go all the way down to 396.

Dr G 9:17
Okay, okay.

Dr Rad 9:19
So, because this is a big deal, I thought maybe we should do a little bit of a recap about Veii. Okay. So geographically, I know you're very well acquainted with where Veii is now because it is super close to Rome.

Dr G 9:35
It is. So realistically we're talking it's about it's less than, like 20 kilometers away from Rome, centre proper

Dr Rad 9:43
Which in Australian terms is basically next door.

Dr G 9:47
Well, and even in Italy, it's basically like, let's not kid ourselves. You could walk there on a good day, and be like, Oh, hey, guys, it's the Etruscans a completely different people.

Dr Rad 9:57
Yeah, So because they're so close, it makes sense that they are constantly fighting these people, because the Romans are constantly fighting all of their neighbors. But they, I suppose having those a trust and connections, I guess that makes them perhaps more ripe for conflict in some ways, because you know, the Etruscans are a major power, they're a major player, you know, there's glory to be won here, Dr. G.

Dr G 9:59
Yeah, and faith does have the capacity to leverage much more support than the neighbors in the other directions surrounding Rome at this point. So Rome has got this thing going on with the Volscii and the Aequii who are kind of to the south east-ish. And those people don't seem to be interconnected into a broader empire of sorts, or a broader conglomerate. There's kind of like, Latin peoples, and they're all kind of milling around in the same sort of area as Rome. But they're not necessarily power blocks, whereas Veii represents the most southern tip of Etrurian power. And the Etruscans are known for having quite a reach up through central into northern Italy.

Dr Rad 11:14
Yes, exactly. And on a more local level, they being so close, they probably have control of some territory, that'd be really handy for the Romans to have, not just so they can say, mine is bigger, but so they have control of, you know, like trade routes, you know, more access to resources that are pretty damn close by.

Dr G 11:36
Yes, it would be nice to knock Veii off its pedestal, wouldn't it?

Dr Rad 11:44
Yes, it would. Just to do a bit of a recap of where we've been with a because Okay, I'm sorry, I have to do a bit of spoilers. This is going to be the last of the big conflicts with Veii –

Dr G 11:56
Oh, no! Close your ears listeners!

Dr Rad 11:57
Well, I didn't say who was gonna win. But I mean, you know, put two and two. So this is going to be the last. So the first really big conflict with a and I mean, obviously, there's been issues with the Etruscans. We believe the sources which we we tend to because there's nothing else to do. There's obviously been some Etruscan questions in the regal period, notably, thanks to Tarquinius, Priscus, etc. But in terms of the Republic, there was a war with a that lasted from 43 to 474. And they definitely was pretty hot in that conflict did pretty well for themselves. And this is the time period in which we have that very famous moment of the fabulous Fabian strategy.

Dr G 12:50
Yes, they were fabulous. right up into the point where they all died. Yes.

Dr Rad 12:54
All, apart from one that would carry the name. Down through the centuries.

Dr G 13:01
But you were the chosen one!

Dr Rad 13:03
Yes, yes. So that didn't end well. For the Romans. The people have they got to keep Fidenae which they are, which always has its greedy little eyes on and that sort of thing. They'd been embarrassed even though obviously, the Fabians seem to have just like gone out on their own bat and be like, yeah, if we just take our clients and our family and sort this out? Sick, bro. Yeah. Yeah, in spite of that, still embarrassing, because they still obviously come from Rome represent the room and interests, and that sort of thing. So that wasn't great. Then more recently, and our listeners might remember this, we of course, had the conflict over Fidenae, which flared up again in the 430s. And the for 20 years, although the dates of course, were super confusing.

Dr G 13:53
Ah, yes. This is one of those instances where all of the events around Fidenae seem to either happen at one time, or they happened a completely different decades. Nobody's really quite sure really, but it happened. This is where Lars Tolumnius comes into play.

Dr Rad 14:09
It is, it is, yes, the Etruscan King.

Dr G 14:12
I knew I remembered something about history,

Dr Rad 14:14
Indeed, slain on the battlefield. It's very sad. So that obviously was a pretty big thing, because with the source material being so confusing, it seemed like that conflict was going on for like a good decade. And maybe it was maybe it was, but certainly there was a lot of changing of allegiances with Fidenae being like, you know, well Fidenae was the hot potato. They were throwing backwards and forwards and was also trying to pick what was best for itself, which was very difficult with Roman and Veii being like you should be with me.

Dr G 14:46
I think they chose Veii and that made Rome mad.

Dr Rad 14:48
It did, it certainly did. It certainly did. So we've had that. But it's been fairly quiet, obviously, because of the way things ended. You know, there was a truce to know. However, hostility is about to recommence, Dr. G, and it really all begins because the Senate in they are just so rude.

Dr G 15:07
Really? Rude about what? They don't want the new treaty they don't want to renewal?

Dr Rad 15:15
So as we know, treaties running out Romans are dealing with this people may seem too interested in this too. But they had asked the Romans for a little bit of you know, timeout because they were dealing with some internal problems. When the Romans approached them in this year, allegedly, the Senate as they tells the Romans to get the hell out if they don't want a taste of what Lars Tolumnius had dished out to the Romans before. In other words, death.

Dr G 15:41
Interesting. I wonder what provoked that?

Dr Rad 15:44
I know. I know. So.

Dr G 15:47
It seems to have come out of nowhere, really

Dr Rad 15:48
I know – they were so nice to each other last year, and yet here we are. Maybe they are, maybe they are being strategic. Maybe they just wanted a little bit more time to prepare lower them in exactly false pretenses. Anyway, needless to say, wherever this hostility came from, the Romans are living so insulted so they say to the military tribunes, could you please just go to the people and ask them to declare war against pay for I will not stand for such an insult.

Dr G 16:23
Fair enough. Yeah. I wouldn't either.

Dr Rad 16:25
No. So the military tribunes do this, of course, but they meet with a less than enthusiastic reception. And this is an interesting episode, I think. Apparently, the young men are kind of like, ‘Oh, my God, seriously, like another war? Like, do you not realize that we're still like fighting with the Volscians? I mean, every year were still fighting and it's just so much war and you want to do it on like, multiple directions. I can't even.'

Dr G 16:58
‘Guys, I'm still in therapy after Verrugo,'

Dr Rad 17:01
‘My trauma, my trauma.'

Dr G 17:05
Fair enough. I would be like that, too. I'd be like, it's too soon. Guys, I've already seen blood.

Dr Rad 17:10
Yeah. Well, I mean, that is fair, because they are still engaged with ongoing tiffs with the Volscians every other year.

Dr G 17:17
Hmm. I was gonna say it's not like things have settled down to the southeast.

Dr Rad 17:21
No, Verrugo just happened, you know, they remember that, you know, and so they really don't want to go to war. And they particularly don't want to go to war with Veii because they know from experience, that they're tough. They're really close. And because there is obviously an Etruscan power. There's always the potential that they're gonna call it all their buddies, all the other Etruscan cities and kingdoms, and it's just gonna get out of hand.

Dr G 17:50
Yeah, okay. Yeah. I don't want to do that either. I mean, there's got to be a way.

Dr Rad 17:54
Yeah. Yeah. So this is interesting. You know, as of time of recording, we just recently spoke to a magnificent guest, Bret Devereaux. He reminded us how little we actually know about military operations at this point in time. But I do think it's interesting that there is the story of like, you know, the lack of interest, you know, people not wanting to sign up. Yeah, it does highlight, obviously, the volunteer, somewhat ad hoc nature of Roman military at this time.

Dr G 18:25
Yes, this idea that we've got a sort of a citizen militia that's kind of can can be called upon, but also gets to express its viewpoint about what's happening.

Dr Rad 18:35
Yeah.

Dr G 18:36
So they're not just, it's not just a state military apparatus.

Dr Rad 18:41
Certainly not yet.

Dr G 18:42
No, it is kind of like a group of people getting together being like, ‘Well, we really should poke sticks in those people over there?' And, and people in the group being like, ‘I'm not sure I want to do that right now.'

Dr Rad 18:53
Yeah, exactly. Like, I can't.

Dr G 18:57
I'm really busy.

Dr Rad 19:00
Really need to get some farming done, guys.

Dr G 19:02
Do you want to eat grain? I want to eat grain.

Dr Rad 19:04
I would love to have some bread. Yeah. So this unhappiness is made a lot worse by our old friends the tribunes of the plebs.

Dr G 19:13
Oh, no. Do we even know the names of any of those guys right now?

Dr Rad 19:16
That'd be silly.

Dr G 19:20
I was like, I don't have any of the plebs in my list, but maybe you do know.

Dr Rad 19:24
Yeah, just generically troublesome in my account.

Dr G 19:27
Okay. Yeah. nameless, troublesome figures. I like it.

Dr Rad 19:31
Yeah. Well, which works kind of either way, I think for a little while. But anyway, so they of course latch on to this. They're like, excellent. We'll use this and they start making a lot of public declarations saying things like, the Senate don't really want to wage war and the Volscians are they they're really waging war on the plebs.

Dr G 19:51
Oh, this is actually a new line for them. I think I like it. Yeah. It's a war on the people. That's what it is and I won't have it.

Dr Rad 19:57
Yeah. And then like, don't you see, can't you see the pattern, the way that they're going about it is that they constantly keep running in a state of war, which means that the beings are constantly having to fight, which means that they get injured or die, or at the very least, it's keeping them out of the city, often far away from the city. Whereas if they were allowed to just kick back, sit on the couch, once in a while, stay at home, not be distracted by the constant threat of death and battle, then they might have had the time to think about, you know, freedom, how they want it, how to get it, setting up colonies, where they can have land and that sort of thing. After all, let's not forget that they are apparently the people who are winning these public lands, and they should be able to vote wherever they want, whenever they want, do whatever they want. They do everything!

Dr G 19:59
All right. Okay, I appreciate this argument. I really do. But I can also see how this is not going to fly with the elite in charge around here, who are looking at the horizon, seeing Veii beating some sticks together and being like, ‘Look, if we don't do something, they're going to take this place and then we'll have nowhere to live. Guys, guys!'

Dr Rad 21:23
For sure. I can totally see that too. And when we're there in Rome, I mean, the ancient city a very is now within the modern city of Rome. That's how close these places are. And therefore, it is probably a bit of a, ‘Look one has to go eventually.'

Dr G 21:41
Yeah. There ain't enough room in this town for the two of us

Dr Rad 21:47
There ain't enough room in this top or valley for the both of us. But anyway, Look obviously into I agree with you, I get where they're coming from I do I get whether the patricians are coming from I also get that this is horribly anachronistic.

Dr G 22:05
The best we can say

Dr Rad 22:06
Exactly. Probably didn't actually happen. But anyway, let's continue on because it's a great story. We're about to get to my favorite part. So they then start speaking to the old veterans in the group, get them to talk about their campaigns, what they sacrificed over the years. And of course, Dr. G. It's time for a plebeian to get his shirt off.

Dr G 22:27
Whoohoo

Dr Rad 22:27
Oh, yeah. It's be way too long since somebody ripped off their tunic and showed their battle scars.

Dr G 22:34
I haven't seen anybody's wounds on the front for ages.

Dr Rad 22:36
I know. I know. I was very excited. A little too excited. But anyway, so hey, rip off their tunics. They show their battle scars.

Dr G 22:46
I was in Fidenae. I saw it all.

Dr Rad 22:50
I remember when Lars Tolumnius was thrown from his horse by Cossus into the ground and a place where the sun don't shine, if you know what I mean. Now the tribune is pointed out that there's barely any space left on their bodies for new scars.

Dr G 23:11
We can't send these guys they're not gonna get through

Dr Rad 23:13
Which is a grizzly image. If you think about it. I mean, I think about people that are addicted to tattoos and get tattoos all over their bodies, but scarring is like a different issue. That's, that's a lot.

Dr G 23:26
It is. It is a lot. The tunic was taken off and everybody was like, please put that back on.

Dr Rad 23:31
Oh, my god,

Dr G 23:34
Stop.

Dr Rad 23:36
Does your skin stretch at all?

Dr G 23:39
Alright, we weren't send you It's fine. It's fine. We'll send somebody else.

Dr Rad 23:42
Given ancient medicine, you're a frickin miracle. Anyway, they're like, What blood could they possibly now shed for Rome? They've already given so much. There's barely any left in that body. They basically blew and not in a good way. So the sorts of speeches and demonstrations naturally make the plebeians even more anti war than they were before.

Dr G 24:11
Fair enough. Yeah. Sounds about right.

Dr Rad 24:14
So our magistrates, therefore decide that you know what, why don't we just wait before we vote on this issue? And a feeling that it might not go our way if we vote immediately.

Dr G 24:26
There are some clever ones in there. All right.

Dr Rad 24:28
Yeah. So feel like insult must be advantage but pick your battles. You know, pick your moments. It was decided, therefore, that the military tribunes should move into Volscian territory with an army.

Dr G 24:43
Hmm,

Dr Rad 24:44
yes. And then we're going to leave Gnaeus Cornelius behind in Rome, you know, just to keep an eye on things.

Dr G 24:50
Okay,

Dr Rad 24:51
Yup. The Volscians: Not in the mood for battle today. No, thank you. They didn't even have a camp. They were caught without their makeup on, without their clothes ready, without their hair done.

Dr G 25:04
Oh, no. Yeah. They were like, ‘Word has it that the Romans are gonna be moving north this year. So I'm just gonna sleep in.'

Dr Rad 25:13
Exactly. Yeah, I can take take a beat. Take the year off. Yeah, no, you can't. Now. So we got one military tribune in in Rome means we got the other three add on campaign and the strategy that they use is that they divide the army up into three sections. And each military tribune therefore gets to plunder and destroy a different part of Volscian country.

Dr G 25:36
Oh, I have a few details about this. But I am willing to hear where how Livy's structures the narrative.

Dr Rad 25:45
Okay,

Dr G 25:45
And then and then I'll jump in with what may be some irrelevant extra detail.

Dr Rad 25:50
Let's go with it. Alright, so I feel a bit like I'm telling the story, the three little pigs: Valerius went to Antium. Cornelius went to Ecetra, Ecetrae, et cetera, et cetera.

Ah et chetera

Et chetray

Dr G 26:08
I don't know.

Dr Rad 26:08
Yeah. Something.

Dr G 26:11
It starts with ‘e' guys.

Dr Rad 26:13
Etc Et ketray. It probably is Et cet-tray.

Dr G 26:15
Et cet-tray

Dr Rad 26:16
Yeah,

Dr G 26:16
Let's say Ecetra.

Dr Rad 26:17
I like calling it et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, by of course, they do the usual you know, like attacking buildings attacking farms, whenever they find them causing chaos. What a merry lark. And our final tribute, he went to Anxur, and this is of course that fabulous Fabian tribune. Now Anxur was the major target for this particular campaign. Now, I think the reason for that, Dr. G, is I don't actually know that we've even mentioned this place before. And it's further-

I don't think we have, no.

Yeah, it's further south, I think then they've generally gone like, as far as I can tell, this is even beyond Antium. Still

Dr G 26:59
Oh, yeah, I can tell you all about where it's located.

Dr Rad 27:02
Thank you. I believe that it's currently, if you were to go and want to see this site now, it'd be known as Terracina.

Dr G 27:10
Hmmm, yes, it is. So this is a place that is about 56 kilometers, or 35 miles southeast of Rome,

Dr Rad 27:23
My, you are prepared.

Dr G 27:25
I am prepared. If I know anything, I'm looking at places where I haven't heard of them before. So it becomes the place where the Via Appia extends all the way down to it not in this time period. But in about another 100 years time, the Via Appia will head all the way straight into like a deadline for Rome down to this spot, right. And it's on a really strategic location. So Italy has all of these sort of like mountain ranges that are formed through the volcanic activity in the the tectonic plates and stuff that sort of go down the middle of it. And this is a spot where a set of hills becomes the cliffs that fall into the sea.

Dr Rad 28:11
Okay.

Dr G 28:12
So when you're in Anxur, you're on the top of a hill. And you can see in every direction, basically. So pretty exciting stuff, because it's in what is known as the Volscian hills. And you can see over what is known as the Pontine Marshes. Now this is the really super flat area that sits in between these hills and Rome itself. And when you're like driving around in Italy today, I recommend you do it. All the roads there are really straight, because it's just flat land. But you've got these amazing hills on one side, and then you've got the marshes and it's just flat. You're like, Okay, so you've got like a really clear view for a whole bunch of things. And we think historically, way back even pre Rome, wait for it that this was an Etruscan area.

Dr Rad 29:07
Oh, okay.

Dr G 29:08
Yeah, back in the seventh century BCE, right. And that it sort of splits away and the Volscians come in and it becomes their kind of thing. And, and they've been hanging out there. But Carthage also has a history with this spot as well.

Dr Rad 29:26
They do. It's coastal.

Dr G 29:27
Yeah. Yeah, anything on the coast. Carthage is interested. The Punic peoples, they are a seafaring peoples. So they've had a treaty setup there since about the early republic. So this whole situation is really interesting because it is you're right, it is much further south than Rome has gone before with a military enterprise. And they're now taking what is a highly strategic Volscian location.

Dr Rad 29:59
Venturing where no Roman than has dared to go before.

Dr G 30:04
A small step for man, a giant step for a Roman military tribune with consular power.

Dr Rad 30:10
That's right. All right. So, as you've highlighted because of the way it's positioned, this is not a place that the Romans are just gonna be able to waltz in and plunder. This is a siege we're facing, people. Now, as you said, there are marshes nearby, like the city apparently kind of slipped in the direction of the marshes. So that is where Fabius is kind of positioned. He has no other choice.

Dr G 30:39
I was gonna say that is not the strategic location to start your siege, but okay, Mr. Mr. Fabius.

Dr Rad 30:45
Yeah, well, that's where he's going to, that's where he's gonna position himself and he's, he's getting a little punchy, you know, he's got a little keen taste, taste for battle. However, this is where our legate comes in. So Gaius Servilius Ahala, takes four cohorts. And he starts to move around the hill, which overlooks Anxur, and he starts attacking the hills from that position, which apparently is a very good position to do this from because there are no real troops there to fight back. Maybe they thought that no one would take that line of attack. I don't know.

Dr G 31:22
They're like, ‘these hills are hard to climb. Nobody's gonna come that way.'

Dr Rad 31:25
Definitely. No one's gonna do that. They're also making a huge amount of noise whilst they're doing this. Okay, so a huge racket to the point where the people who are inside the city are like, Oh, my God, could you just keep it down with trying to wage a war state or rock concert? Jeez.

Dr G 31:44
I'm trying to think about what the purpose of the noise would be, and maybe to scare the people into thinking that there's a bigger army and

Dr Rad 31:49
It's a tactic. It's a technique. So obviously, the people who are focusing on Fabius, who's doing his little like, jab, jab, punch from down in the marshes.

Dr G 32:03
Come down here and say that, I'll take you down.

Dr Rad 32:06
They're confused by the noise. It's very distracting. And because they are distracted by the noise that's being caused by Ahala. It allows Fabius apparently to sneak in some scaling ladders.

Dr G 32:23
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Dr Rad 32:25
Exactly. And Anxur is soon swarming with Romans. And this is a pretty brutal conquest, Dr. G., they are slaughtering everyone and anyone citizen soldier, armed, unarmed, who cares. You're on the end of my sword.

Dr G 32:45
Huh? Okay, so this issue, this moment in time between Rome, the Volscians and Anxur, yes, this is one of those rare moments where we have a fragment from Ennius.

Dr Rad 32:59
Oh, okay. Tell me more about this early, early source.

Dr G 33:04
Our, early early source. So Ennius is most famous for writing a poem called the Annales and he was born in 239 BCE, we think so he's third century. So this puts him much earlier than Livy, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, any of the sources that we're reading really? Yeah. And so this becomes one of these moments that we're able to locate, because we've got a much earliest written source, okay. So, Ennius is somebody who is not Roman, he is somebody who comes to Rome later in life. And he speaks a number of different languages. So he is from what is ancient Calabria, which is part of broader Magna Grecia. Right? So he speaks Greek. He also speaks Oscan. And he also speaks Latin, handy. And this seems to be like pretty typical for what is going on in Italy during this way.

Dr Rad 34:11
Yeah, you've got the Greeks in the south, you've got the Oscans on the – wait – you've got the Oscans to the east…

Dr G 34:18
The Oscans are kind of to the east a little bit, but they kind of spread like a little band that separates the Greeks and the Latin speakers if you like so he's kind of got like this sweep of things from sort of south to center in terms of his languages. This means that he's got not just a sort of an interest in Roman things. He's got an interest in the broader region as well. And he mentioned this as he mentioned the Roman ladders in Anxur and he also mentions the way that the Volscians lose. So these are the two details that that we get from a different source for this.

Dr Rad 34:54
Okay. Well, okay. Let us corroborate: ladders – tick.So obviously with Romans all about their city, too dangerous etc, as they tend to be, the people who live there, they've got nothing to gain at this point by surrounding because the Romans are just too indiscriminate in their violence. And so it looks like they just gonna have to power on regardless which, again, it's not going to end well for them that I guess at least I took a few Romans with them, right. But suddenly, the Romans are receiving instruction that they're not to harm anyone, unless they're holding a weapon. And so the people of Anxur are very quick to drop it like it's hot.

Dr G 35:37
‘What are you talking about? Mah? That touched me, I didn't pick it up.'

Dr Rad 35:43
‘That's not mine. I mean sure it's got my name inscribed on it, but whatever.' So this is how this is how it ends? It means that the Romans are able to capture approximately 2,500 people.

Dr G 35:59
Okay, that's a lot.

Dr Rad 36:00
Yeah. And I mean, considering that we haven't really talked much about, you know, prisoners of war of late. But it wasn't that long ago that they also captured, you know, a few 1,000. And so yeah, all of a sudden, we can see that, with the Romans being a bit more aggressive. Being a bit more expansionist in the region. We're starting to see prisoners being taken again, allegedly, the numbers are very round. That's all I'm gonna say.

Dr G 36:27
You telling me somebody's not keeping a proper count. Goodness me.

Dr Rad 36:32
Anyway. So Fabius now comes in, and he tells his man, ‘Look, you need to leave the booty here until the other military tribunes arrive on the scene.' Okay, after all, you know, this is this is a joint effort we're talking about here. And also, you know, Ahala, he also was key, they managed to do the ladder thing, because they were just so damn noisy. So once all of the three military tribunes and Ahala represent as well sort of all converged on Anxur, the three armies and all get to lay waste to the town together, because the family that raids together stays together. And Anxur is a real win, not just strategically, although that is obviously a big thing. That's the main reason why they want it. But it's also a very rich place at this point in time, they've been doing pretty well for themselves. So, you know, it's it's a good time had by the Romans, it's a good day.

Dr G 37:35
It does seem like they've gone in the very opposite direction, and quite far in the opposite direction though, from Veii.

Dr Rad 37:43
Yes, yes. Well, I think you'll see why in a second here. So because all the soldiers were able to come together, and raid this very rich city, and they've had their success. This starts to make the plebeians think, maybe the patricians aren't so bad. After all, there's no better way to say that you're sorry, then with goods stolen from the enemy?

Dr G 38:09
Oh, that's true. I'm feeling buffed up by all of this booty.

Dr Rad 38:13
Yeah, and again, if we if we unpack this a little bit with what we know about the Roman army, or rather, what we don't know, at this point in time, because it is made up with people who are volunteers, as far as we can tell, and they are people who obviously, therefore, you know, they go to work, and they need to, but otherwise they're living their lives, and that sort of thing. Being able to raid like this makes sense. This is probably what warfare at this point in time is really about. It's not huge state run armies. You don't probably have magistrates, who get to say, who gets to keep what and who gets what, all the time, you know, it would have to be that these guys are, they're not getting paid. So them being able to take stuff when they win a battle. That's their pet. That's what they get for doing this for risking their lives and for leaving their families and their farms.

Dr G 39:12
Yeah. And this sort of going out as far as Rome has, at this point, taking this place that they've never taken before. This would be a real, I don't want to say cash injection, but it's kind of what I mean is like there's like a wealth accruing there from taking somewhere new and different.

Dr Rad 39:30
Absolutely. Yeah. Now, this is where we get a very big decision being made, Dr. G. And nobody had even asked for it, which we know as women. That's what matters the most right that you didn't actually have to ask. So the Senate makes this big decision that they're going to start paying soldiers.

Dr G 39:55
What?

Dr Rad 39:56
Yeah, yeah,

Dr G 39:57
No.

Dr Rad 39:58
Yeah. So the state-slash-public treasury and now going to pay the man who are fighting for them, which is described by Livy as the most seasonable boon, which has ever been bestowed on them by the chiefs of state.

Dr G 40:14
Okay, now, I'm not sure, first, that I believe that this is going to be the start of sustained payment.

Dr Rad 40:21
I don't think it is either. No, I don't think so.

Dr G 40:25
The only other source that I have for this year is Florus.

Dr Rad 40:28
Mmm Okay?

Dr G 40:30
And Florus, he talks about this 10 year siege of Veii, the foreshadowing thing. And he talks about how this is the first time that a Roman army has to spend the winter in campaign. So all of a sudden, they're out in the cold. So rather than usually the idea of the Roman campaigning season, as far as we theoretically understand that we have no idea how it's actually working at this point in time. But the idea is that in spring, you get together, you do the levee, and then you go out, and summertime is battle time.

Dr Rad 41:09
Yeah.

Dr G 41:10
And when things start to cool down again, in autumn, you definitely want to bring everybody home. Things don't happen in winter time, everybody's busy trying to stay warm, to stay out on campaign through the winter, is a whole extra sort of layer of challenge. You would need different equipment, better equipment, perhaps more weatherproof equipment. But if you're going to do a siege properly, and it's going to keep being a siege for as long as it needs to be a siege, you kind of have to stay in the field. And this is the moment that Florus suggest that because winter service was required of the soldiers. And this is in relation to Veii so we might be getting ahead of ourselves here. They get compensated with a special payment.

Dr Rad 41:59
Yeah, so I think you I think you hit the nail on the head, you have jumped ahead a little bit in my narrative. But yes, you are right, it does seem to be tied very much with Veii with the fact that there seems to be a much more sustained campaign. Is it 10 years? Who knows. But it definitely does seem to be more sustained than what the Romans have recently been doing, which is basically, you know, running across borders. And running back again. And certainly, so we can believe that there is some sort of payment in terms of it being like cash, like we would think of it like cha ching coin.

Dr G 42:35
Yeah. You rock up and the coin store is like and that's your check. Cash it wisely.

Dr Rad 42:41
Yeah, it seems unlikely that that's what's happening at this point in time. The Romans don't have coinage in this moment, it's more, it's more likely that they're getting paid in a sense of they're getting certain goods and food would be the most likely source of payment, I would imagine.

Dr G 42:59
Yeah. And we sort of get that sense that prior to this, the informal way of compensating people is through the booty system. So the idea that you go out, you do the reading, you grab the other people's stuff. And that's how you compensate people because then people either use that stuff, or maybe they trade that stuff.

Dr Rad 43:17
Yeah. And as was very usefully highlighted by Bret Devereaux. I'm going to keep mentioning him because it's just a very military episode. As he mentioned, when you have an army like this, the people that who are going out and fighting even though the whole accounts been very much swept up in this conflict of the oddest narrative, which we keep going on and on about, it probably isn't the super, super poor people that are going out and fighting at this moment in time. It's probably still people that are, you know, relatively well off. So they've been able to do this kind of warfare up until this point, but being away on campaign for a long time. Well, that is different. And also if you want more manpower, then you have to make it possible for the poorer people to serve.

Dr G 44:09
Yeah, there needs to be a way to make sure that it's possible for them to take the time.

Dr Rad 44:14
Yeah. And for the state not to suffer you know, you do still need people to stay at home and farm. Yeah, anyway, so as you highlighted, this pay probably is linked to the future campaign per se, but there hasn't been mentioned yet, Dr. G. But just giving it to people they just didn't dancing it okay and are so excited. This is like Christmas.

Dr G 44:43
Oh Livy, this narrative is wild.

Dr Rad 44:46
So crowds start to gather together in the Curia. And this is okay, apparently, it would be amazing. Of course,

Dr G 44:53
In a nice public building if they've got one.

Dr Rad 44:55
Yeah, exactly. Men are shaking the hands of senators as they come out of this historic meeting. They're saying to them, ‘You know what? We've had to call you, the fathers. But now you really deserve it.'

Dr G 45:12
Daddy,

Dr Rad 45:14
Oh my god you are my real dad.

Dr G 45:17
I feel like I'd be a real son now.

Dr Rad 45:20
It's just like all these years. It's kind of felt like you didn't really care but you did. And you are my father. You are the patres. You are the patres.

Dr G 45:36
Wow, the emotion. They're running high.

Dr Rad 45:39
Yeah, exactly. Everyone's saying, ‘You know what, now no one would mind serving in the army. Blood shmud, death schmeth, who cares? I mean, Rome, as a state is just so insanely generous, that it's just a pleasure and an honour to serve.'

Dr G 46:00
Guys, you've made it easy for me to say yes. Now you really have.

Dr Rad 46:02
Yeah, they really extra tickled, like the joy is really, you know, just gone. Right up there. Because not only were they not losing money anymore, when they went out of fight potentially, obviously, depends if you get booty and that sort of thing. But it's really the fact that the Senate did this without being asked. They hadn't even been pushing for this. It's a spontaneous gift. It's like when your partner takes the rubbish out without having to be asked, you know, when they put their plate in the dishwasher without having to be asked or they tidy their room without having to be asked.

Dr G 46:39
Well, I don't know what's going on in your house, but it sounds very exciting.

Dr Rad 46:44
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, are not pleased. They're the only party poopers in this situation.

Dr G 46:54
I wonder why? They've been undercut, haven't they?

Dr Rad 46:57
Exactly. Whose scars are going to show now? They felt like the plebeians were deluded. They're like, ‘Guys, this is not going to benefit you quite this much like take it down a notch. It's just one of those things that the Senate do, where I assure it looks good on paper, or whatever it is we're using right now to record things. But it's not going to play out that well in real life, or telling you this, this isn't how the Senate is work. This isn't how patricians work.'

Dr G 47:27
Yeah, ‘you need to be more suspicious, guys. A little bit more skepticism could go a long way right now.'

Dr Rad 47:32
Well, they do make a very good point, Dr. G. And it's what a question that we still asked to this day, which is, where's the money coming from? Follow the many people! Who's going to be paying for this?

Dr G 47:46
I mean, if it's bags of grain if they're being paid in food, that food has been produced by the very people who it's been given to.

Dr Rad 47:54
How dare you interrupt my delightfully anachronistic account of Livy? Where we are apparently talking about money?

Dr G 48:02
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Dr Rad 48:04
He basically says, ‘Look, it's gonna be the people that are funding this. The senators? Oh, sure. They're so generous when it comes to making payments with other people's money.'

Dr G 48:15
Exactly.

Dr Rad 48:17
Which, okay, let's just take a break. Even if we're not talking about actual money, it might be other people's goods or grain that we're talking about here. So I take your point. Yeah.

Dr G 48:31
Either way, I don't think it's coming out of the pockets of the rich.

Dr Rad 48:35
That's the point. That's the point even if whatever we're talking about whether we're talking about grain, whether we are in fact talking about some sort of valuable metal, whatever it is, we're talking about, and I'm putting my money on the grain. It's not going to be coming from they're not privately funding this. The tribunes of the plebs also point out. What about the people who had already served? Right okay to be happy that people are now getting paid. There's no back pay system. Come on. No, no, don't like it's going to be coming out of their pockets, but they didn't get paid. That's a bit of a you know, a bit of a nice to the heart right there.

Dr G 49:15
That's a recipe for discontent.

Dr Rad 49:16
That is it is yeah. Now some of the plebeians are like okay, good points, fair points. I hear what you're saying. and I are going to wind back my enthusiasm just a tad.

Dr G 49:32
Daddy, thank you. I'll write you a card.

Dr Rad 49:36
The tribunes don't come out and say – sorry, the tribunes of the plebs – I always have to qualify that because there's so many tribunes at the moment. They say we will make sure that anyone who refuses to pay any sort of tax for soldier pay, we will protect you. We will look out for you because this is not a good system. This is not fair. This is not what should be happening.

Dr G 49:58
Interesting.

Dr Rad 49:59
I know So even though the senators are being very clever here, because as you highlighted, they're totally thinking about very when they're introducing this. They've been very clever not let on that. That's what it's about. The tribunes are also being very clever, and foreseeing that there's a problem with this in that, where's it all going to come from? However, the senators are determined to this is going to go through. So determined that they do put in some of their own money, and I'm using my flesh rabbits there, because once again, what money? There is no coinage. And Livy apparently says that the way that they pay is they bring in unclaimed bronze in wagons to the Treasury. Now, I did actually talk about this in another episode thinking I had already mentioned this. But this is where we have to be like, really? Is that what they did? I'm not sure like maybe, I don't know, but it does seem-

Dr G 51:02
Where did they find this? This bronze?

Dr Rad 51:05
It just doesn't seem like the way that Rome is operating right now.

Dr G 51:11
Okay, yeah. Look, I, I don't have a perspective one way or the other or that I but I think I have questions.

Dr Rad 51:18
At least Livy knows that it should be uncoined bronze. But anyway, but they make sure that people see them doing it. That's the whole point. Yeah, so like, oh, this wagon so heavy, my animals was straining to bring it in to the Treasury. However, wil I carry so much uncoined bronze?

Dr G 51:42
The blanket that's covering it slips off and like, ‘oh, goodness, is that what's in there?'

Dr Rad 51:46
Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I didn't want anyone to know, this is meant to be anonymous. I wanted to hide my name. Anyway, so with the senators bringing in some of their own cash for lack of a better term – goods. They also want their clients I think to start bringing in contributions.

Dr G 52:10
All right, yeah. They have to raise funds somehow now. If you're gonna pay people, you need to pay them with something. Yes, regardless of what that something is.

Dr Rad 52:19
Yeah. And it seems that they might be recruiting some of the wealthier plebeians to do this. Which is really interesting, because we've always talked about the nuance of the supposed Conflict of the Orders. So it is interesting to once again highlight that it's not as clear cut as patricians versus plebeians. It's probably wealthy people versus other people, much like every other society. Anyway, the crowd start to see a course that people are bringing in their own money, and that these people were being praised by the patricians for doing that. People of military age, who always are going to be the ones on the front lines, and who are going to be obviously benefiting from this. They're like, wow, this is amazing.

Dr G 53:06
Sign me up, I'll go anywhere, I'll do anything.

Dr Rad 53:10
They're doing their duty by making these contributions and allowing for this payment system to be possible. So this starts to turn them against the tribunes of the plebs here, and everyone starts competing with each other to make their own donations. Now, when I say everyone, I'm presuming again. Everyone wealthy.

Dr G 53:30
Every rich person.

Dr Rad 53:31
Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 53:33
Like this is how we're going to get them on side.

Dr Rad 53:35
It's at this point, that war is declared on Veii, because of course, they have no problem fielding an army after all of this.

Dr G 53:44
It's time guys. were bursting at the seams with troops.

Dr Rad 53:48
Yeah. Now, as you've said, although we have to question a lot of the material from this early period. It does make sense that there was a payment of sorts involved in this campaign, at least at some point, maybe not straightaway, maybe straightaway, who knows. But it probably wasn't something that the Romans kept in play consistently from this moment on. It was probably exactly because they is going to be a special case.

Dr G 54:19
Yes, I dare say so. So whatever is going to happen. And at the moment, in Livy's, narrative, nothing yet has happened with Veii except for the decision to go to war. But it seems like whatever is going to happen in Veii is going to be significant enough that Rome has to change the way it does things in order to pursue its military objectives.

Dr Rad 54:41
Absolutely. And Veii is a valid military objective.

Dr G 54:46
Look they have been a thorn in Rome side pretty much since the beginning.

Dr Rad 54:50
So maybe even before, after all the Etruscans seem to have been earlier.

Dr G 54:56
That's true. Yeah.

Dr Rad 54:58
Now that is where 406 actually winds up for me with the beginning, the beginning of conflict with Veii on the horizon.

Dr G 55:07
All right. Well, I think that's probably an excellent place to then wrap up this episode. I certainly don't have too much to add. I think I've, I've sprinkled in the little fragments of sources as they've appeared in relation to things. The only other thing that I could tell you is Diodorus Siculus does go into the broader Mediterranean politics a little bit,

Dr Rad 55:32
I'd love to hear that.

Dr G 55:34
And mostly focusing on Sicily at this point. So Sicily has been taken over by tyrants. We're kind, we've got a guy called Dionysius, the tyrant of Syracuse. And he is now looking to expand his power and territorial influence. So he's sitting in a pretty strategic location already with Syracuse. But he's like, You know what I would like to dominate all of the east coast of Sicily as my like branching out process. He's really interested in taking over Naxos, which is a little bit further up; Catane, which becomes Catania.; And Leontinoi, which is a little bit further north of Syracuse, but before you get to Catane. So he's keen to do that. And he's sort of like eyeing off how he's going to do it. And facing some pressure from Punic forces, because a lot of these places are being contested right now. And the Carthaginians have a presence in Sicily already. So that's kind of like this tussling going on in the south. And that's it.

Dr Rad 56:55
Okay. All right. Well, let's get into it. Dr. G, it's time for the Partial Pick

So tell me, Dr. G., exactly how does the Partial Pick work?

Dr G 57:11
Alright, so Rome, could potentially win 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each out of 10. Let us see how they do according to their own systems of valuing themselves.

Dr Rad 57:25
But judged by us.

Dr G 57:28
We certainly wouldn't judge the Romans. The first category is military clout.

Dr Rad 57:33
Okay. Well, I think this is a bad a year for that. I mean, they can't get Anxur which seemed difficult. And yet, they did it with relatively little trouble.

Dr G 57:46
Seems to go pretty well, really, once they got the mountain caterwauling going on, and they were fine.

Dr Rad 57:55
Ahala they have it? I don't it's also the apparent year that military pay was introduced deep reservations. But this is what we're told. And I believe it is corroborated by a number of sources. So gonna have to believe Livy here. So I kind of am tempted to give them 10 out of 10.

Dr G 58:16
Wow. Okay.

Dr Rad 58:19
I mean, I could go as low as eight. But I don't think it can be any lower than that.

Dr G 58:24
Let's say nine. I'm always the ever the diplomat. I think yeah, I'm wondering what would be a 10 now for me, but uh, I think it would be more than the taking of one place, and the putative introduction of military pay. But yes.

Dr Rad 58:46
Look, I think we can believe that they are introducing some form of compensation, potentially just for the time that they are fighting with me.

Dr G 58:56
Look, I think my concern is, first of all, that in the very fragments resources that I have the siege with they would have had to start in 406. Because it's, the payment is a consequence of a military situation. Not the inducement to encourage a military force

Dr Rad 59:19
Dr. G., the patricians are way too clever. They knew they knew that this would win the pavilions onto their side again.

Dr G 59:29
I have a high degree of skepticism about Livy's timeline here, even within the narrow bracket in which he's providing so

Dr Rad 59:40
Timeline schimeline.

Dr G 59:42
it seems far more likely to me that military payment is introduced as a consequence of certain things happening. But yes, oh,

Dr Rad 59:51
Oh the patricians are far more devious and you give them credit for politicians par excellence?

Dr G 1:00:01
That is not what we have seen so far and you know it. Nice try. All right. I'll give them a nine. That's fine. Okay. And then we move on to Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:14
We may. I don't know that there's not even vague, vague.

Dr G 1:00:19
I was gonna say he doesn't try to be diplomatic and Rome certainly doesn't try to solve that situation with diplomacy.

Dr Rad 1:00:25
The insults are for lying.

Dr G 1:00:27
That's a failure on every level.

Dr Rad 1:00:29
Unfortunately, a zero

Dr G 1:00:31
Expansion.

Dr Rad 1:00:33
Yes.

Dr G 1:00:35
I assume at this point, it's obviously hard to know. But the the assumption that seems to be built into Livy's narrative, and the fragments that I've got as well is that they get to hold Anxur for a while if not forever.

Dr Rad 1:00:51
Yeah.

Dr G 1:00:51
So this is the moment where they do expand their territory. And it's significant because it is much further from Rome than say something like for Verrugo and even Antium, which they have struggled to hold in the past.

Dr Rad 1:01:04
Well fairly recently it would seem. Yeah. Okay. So what are you willing to give them Dr. G?

Dr G 1:01:12
Look, I think a six.

Dr Rad 1:01:13
What, what? It's of strategic significance!

Dr G 1:01:20
It's one place.

Dr Rad 1:01:21
I know, but it's going to be just one place for a while now.

Dr G 1:01:25
Which is, you know, I mean,

Dr Rad 1:01:27
how about a seven?

Dr G 1:01:31
Fine.

Dr Rad 1:01:32
Yay.

I'm on your side Rome. Together, we'll get over 25 and 50.

Dr G 1:01:40
Meanwhile, I'll keep giving them low scores. I just want to see more effort guys. All right. Okay. The fourth category is Virtus.

Dr Rad 1:01:51
Okay,

Dr G 1:01:52
Their idea of Roman manliness. Like, how courageous How significant is their expression of their masculinity right now?

Dr Rad 1:02:06
Well, I think there's a bit of virtus in this episode.

Dr G 1:02:08
It's been a while. We've definitely seen some scars. We have maybe too many scars.

Dr Rad 1:02:14
Definitely too many. I have scars for life.

Dr G 1:02:19
But I think as soon as anybody takes off their tunic to show their scars, I think we can safely say we're in a virtus moment.

Dr Rad 1:02:27
Yeah. It's not the best moment.

Dr G 1:02:29
It's not the best moment. But it is an inducement. It is a display in public of how they've contributed to Romanness through their body.

Dr Rad 1:02:41
Yeah.

Dr G 1:02:42
So this idea that Roman manhood is embodied in a really particular way. And one of those really particular ways is through that military sacrifice, and the courage that it takes to not flee from battle, because the thing about showing your wounds is the wounds have to be on the front of your body. Or on the back in order to count for waiters. Nobody wants to see that you ran away, and somebody tried to stab you.

Dr Rad 1:03:09
I'm super curious as to why Livy's Like there's not even any space on their bodies. For most guys. I'm like, Well, they'd want to be on the back.

Dr G 1:03:18
Well, maybe, and maybe he's talking exclusively about the front,

Dr Rad 1:03:23
I assume as much is the case

Dr G 1:03:23
Maybe it's the case that some of the skirmishes do lead to a lot of other kinds of scars.

Dr Rad 1:03:29
This is true, but yeah, Look, I mean, especially for someone who is a Roman citizen, and although I might be projecting backwards a little bit, but I think that this is probably true for this time. In theory, also showing your body in public is not something that you do on a regular basis.

Dr G 1:03:49
Yeah, the Romans aren't into that. They're not very, they're not very cool with bodies. This is where well before the time that they come into, like strong contact with Greek culture and really embrace some of that stuff. Yeah, but even when they do embrace the Greek cultural side, there's a whole bunch of Greek things that the Greeks are comfortable with that the Romans are never never comfortable with to do with body

Dr Rad 1:04:10
The Romans as a people were there like there's a time and a place and a status. Slaves are the ones you know, slaves and prostitutes and gladiators. You're all the ones that show off your bodies in public, not I.

Dr G 1:04:25
The Romans are an awkward people when it comes to some stuff to do with bodies. So yeah, yeah. They'd be like, Oh, okay, all the scars are at the front. Verified. Please put the tunic back on.

Dr Rad 1:04:35
Put it away. So what like a three do you think?

Dr G 1:04:38
Ooh, maybe a four.

Dr Rad 1:04:41
Oh okay. Hey, big spender.

Dr G 1:04:43
Hello.

Dr Rad 1:04:45
All right. All right. Okay. final category.

Dr G 1:04:47
Our final category is the Citizens Score

Well they are very excited

The citizens do score don't they

Dr Rad 1:04:54
They really do they do. They know what's coming but they think they do.

Dr G 1:05:00
Like, Oh, hail the fathers.

Dr Rad 1:05:04
I mean, to think about all the times that the citizens have been so unhappy, and all of a sudden had to do was institute military pay.

Dr G 1:05:13
The solution was right there, guys.

Dr Rad 1:05:15
I mean, having said this, obviously, as we've, as we've talked about, this is presumably opening the door for a wider range of people to serve. So presumably, it's people who haven't served much before that might be super exciting.

Dr G 1:05:33
Yeah, Look, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Yeah, no, we shouldn't I don't think this is evidence of a system of payment.

Dr Rad 1:05:41
Oh, no, it isn't. Like at the moment, they're just like, Oh, my God just came out of nowhere. took me by surprise.

Dr G 1:05:49
You know what, I'm gonna volunteer. That's what I'm gonna do.

Dr Rad 1:05:52
So you know what, actually, this is very much this. I don't know if you remember this scene in Sliding Doors, and it's popped up in a few other comedies since the idea that men only buy flowers spontaneously when they've done something wrong. I feel like that is what is going on here, Dr G. The patricians only gave us so when they've got any evil plan working in their back pocket. Bad luck. The citizens are very excited. Presumably, this is affecting a wider range of citizens and we're normally talking about

Dr G 1:06:26
Yeah, and it does seem that on the flip side, the military campaigning that Rome has engaged in in this year with Anxur has gone well,

Dr Rad 1:06:37
Absolutely. Booty.

Dr G 1:06:41
Very good for the Romans.

Dr Rad 1:06:43
That's what we care about at the moment, we can deal with we can be sympathetic, but once we're scoring, it's all Rome.

Dr G 1:06:48
That exactly, so I think it's a pretty good time to be a Roman citizen.

Dr Rad 1:06:52
Yeah. Should we give it like a seven?

Dr G 1:06:55
Oooo Let's.

Dr Rad 1:06:56
Oh my god. Dr. G., to you realize that that means that for the first time in a really long time, their variants have got just over 50% they're on 27 Golden Eagles.

Dr G 1:07:12
Oh, well done, Ancient Rome. Yeah, all it took was a big military victory and paying your troops being nice to people who would have needed the basics, the basics, guys.

Dr Rad 1:07:28
All right, well, what a high day I can't wait to talk about four or five with you. It's gonna be another big year. I think. I'm excited.

Dr G 1:07:40
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. A huge thank you to our Patreon supporters for helping make this show spectacular. If you enjoyed the show, there's a few ways that you can show your support. You can write a review wherever you listen in to help spread the word. Reviews really make our day and help new people find our podcast. Researching and producing a podcast takes time. If you're keen to chip in, you can buy us a coffee on Ko-Fi, or join our fantastic patrons for early releases and exclusive content. You can find our show notes, as well as links to our merch and where to buy our book ‘Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome' at partialhistorians.com Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

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