It’s Never Too Late To Start Again | For Mannerless Women

0:00It's Paul in America, make it count. At the Ram Drive-In to Fall Sales event, make it powerful with our strongest Ram 1500 ever, make it move with the Ram Heavy Duty with an available Cummins diesel and make it go to the distance with a 10-year or 100,000-mile powertrain limited warranty. Hurry and now for great deals during the Ram Drive-In to Fall Sales event. Excludes fully electric vehicles applied to 2026 model-year vehicles non-transferable, visit MoPAR.com for complete details and a copy of the powertrain limited warranty. Cummins is a registered trademark of Cummins ain't Ram and Hammy are registered trademarks of FCA-US LLC. Ranked number one in innovation, 11 consecutive years, Arizona State University isn't just ahead of the curve, it's creating new paths to success. Learn from notable clinical and research faculty online. That's a degree better. Explore programs at ASUOnline.asu.edu. Age should only give you more because I tell people well, I mean, my 50s now, but I have never felt that I could do more than now. I'm very confident in myself more than I ever was when I was younger because on a lakes uh what were my clothing work the most.

1:02I also said. To you yes sounds good. So six months ago I had to succumb to it because might the if it was, probably in the 10.8 injected waiver. But I don t want you but it didn't appeal to me for an X in 對or three. Before at the uns meiner, it was in to her commute, but she didn't buy it. start with millions, we'll be getting big fees there. No, no, no, you're new now. Introduce yourself again. Who are you? And for me, I guess it's was. I mean, I'm not married. I have no children. And people say, no, you know, you can't even adopt, but why are you like that? Can we introduce you to someone? Yeah, it's what you mean. Yeah, fine. Welcome to For Manalist Women. My name's Adele Nyango, I'm your host. And this is a space that is committed to nurturing a new generation of shame-free women. Innovate Robot have an incredible conversation with Sally Sauy. What we're doing is basting the myth that a woman's best years are behind her.

2:05All the Manalist or almost Manalist women. LAUGHTER Thank you so much for making the time to be on the show. And for like cheering for Manalist women from behind the scenes, it's incredible to also now meet you in presence, Sally. So thanks for coming here. Adele, it's a true pleasure. I have wanted to be on this show for a long time for various reasons, but mostly because I think what you're doing is great. It needs to be had. Many people are not talking about some of the things that you're talking about, which I think are important. I wanted to lend my voice to what you're doing. And I have admired you, your freedom, your openness, your vulnerability. I don't know what's going on. That was. It came on now. Wow. It came on a boat. Yes. LAUGHTER But to really open yourself up to us,

3:07about very personal things that many people don't talk about so that other people can learn. It's one of the great reasons why I wanted to be here. So it's a pleasure to be here. And thank you for having me. Yes. And I feel like our energies are so similar. Aligned. I think. I think. I think. This episode, I think one of the things I want the women who are watching to walk away with is to know that it is never too late to start to change your mind. There is this lie and a myth that we've been sold as women that our prime is in our 20 years. And once he hits 29, yes, those. Yeah, one more year before you expire, right? Did you grow up having that pressure as well? I agree. I think it's true. I find that even if you think about high school, like when I went to high school, everything was narrowing you down to a choice.

4:07Yeah. From what you're studying, where you're going to go to university, what you're going to do, where you're going to work, what are the kind of jobs? It was really narrowing you down to this choice. It's very early. When are you going to get married? When are you going to get children? Everything. And so it reaches a point where by the time if you're like in your 30s and you haven't narrowed down into this societal place, then you're an outsider. People are judging you. It feels like you're out of step. It feels like it's already too late. And I feel like that should be the opposite of what it is. I find that actually when you're a young guy today, if you think about some of the schools, they actually start opening you up from when you're young. They tell you the world is your oyster. You should explore. There should be more. You should literally start from here and narrow down to your preference, to who you think you are, to go to where you belong. And that you could be seven things, not one thing. And at any time you could start and change.

5:09You could pivot. Pivot came during COVID. And that's when most people gave themselves a chance to really interrogate where they were. If they were happy with where they were living, with being married, with being in a family. And I think that that is what it should be. We start as children exploring and belonging to the whole world. And then we are narrowed down by society, but I think it should be the opposite. We should start as wide as possible because you could be anything. And age should only give you more because I tell people, well, I mean, my 50s now, but I have never felt that I could do more than now. That I can contribute more now. I have more to offer. I have experience. I'm very confident in myself more than I ever was when I was younger because, honestly, who is, and if anybody tells you the way it's alive. But I am finding my place. I never think that there's something that I can't do. Actually, I'm more opening to doing new things.

6:11In my 40s, I used to say no a lot. I only did my first podcast. I think two years ago, I would never have done it. I used to feel like, oh, I'm so private and all these things. And now I'm so daring. I want to do adventures. I want to learn things. I want to do more. I have more to contribute. Yeah. So it's interesting how, for me, age has opened me up rather than closing me down, which is contrary to what you were. Absolutely. When I was younger, I felt like by your 50s. And when I think about my mom when she was in her 50s, she had retire. She was living a life of farming. And when she didn't become invisible, from where she began, which I felt was very open, it's like her trace is really narrowed down. And I sort of feel the opposite of that. And therefore I take advantage of everything. Because I feel it's a gift, you know, it really is a gift. When you, what were you feeling like

7:12before you got into your 50s? Start 49, where were you emotionally then? I never sort of veered my 50s, because I think a lot of this started in my 40s. A lot of me. It's Paul and America. Make it count at the Ram Drive-in-to-Fall Sales Event. Make it powerful with our strongest Ram 1500 ever. Make it move with the Ram Heavy Duty with an available Cummins Diesel. And make it go the distance with a 10 year or 100,000 mile powertrain limited warranty. Hurry and now for great deals during the Ram Drive-in-to-Fall Sales Event. Excludes fully electric vehicles applied to 2026 model year vehicles non-transferable. Visit mopart.com for complete details on a copy of the powertrain limited warranty. Cummins is a registered trademark of Cummins. Ain't Ram and Hammer are registered trademarks of FCA, US, LLC. Ranked number one in innovation, 11 consecutive years. Arizona State University isn't just ahead of the curve. It's creating new paths to success. Learn from notable clinical and research faculty online. That's a degree better. Explore programs at ASUOnline.asu.edu.

8:13It's Paul and America. Make it count at the Ram Drive-in-to-Fall Sales Event. Make it powerful with our strongest Ram 1500 ever. Make it move with the Ram Heavy Duty with an available Cummins Diesel. And make it go the distance with a 10 year or 100,000 mile powertrain limited warranty. Hurry in now for great deals during the Ram Drive-in-to-Fall Sales Event. Excludes fully electric vehicles applied to 2026 model year vehicles non-transferable. Visit mopart.com for complete details on a copy of the powertrain limited warranty. Cummins is a registered trademark of Cummins. Ain't Ram and Hammer are registered trademarks of FCA, US, LLC. Trying to become something that I felt that I wasn't being, that I wasn't authentic. And I started really questioning myself. Yeah. Does this make me happy? Am I where I want to be? Do I want to do this? So even friendships, I questioned, are these the right friendships for me? Have I always just been going along? There was a lot of that. And the more I tried to get back to myself, the more of this.

9:13I didn't fear, actually. I became fearless, so to speak. As I got to 50, by the time I got to 50, everybody was like, you're 50. When I used to, when I invited people for my 50th. They were like, we're just putting a big 50 there. And I was like, yes, I'm so proud of it. I was happy to be my agent. I till today, I tell people my age with some, and some of them are like, no, no, she didn't. I get a lot of that. Like, oh, why should you tell people, you don't have to. And I'm like, why? It's my, we should be glad to age. I mean, it's very few people get to where I am. I mean, many people don't age. They wish they could. Many people are at well. They can't really experience what I'm experiencing. Many people, maybe because they narrowed down their options, don't have the options today. So for me, I love it. I enjoy every year. I look forward to every new year to do more things, to discover more things. So for me, I approached it with openness

10:16because I shifted my way of thinking about age. And what was expected of 50-year-old woman. Yeah. And I love that so much because I think a lot of times, even online, being in the media, a lot of ways that misogynists try and shape me will be, oh, you're old and I'm like, it's unpleasant. Yeah. And what he says, and for me, I guess it's worse. I mean, I'm not married. I have no children. And people say, no, you know, you can't even adopt, like, I, yeah, what do you mean? I'm fine. But also, it comes with the fact that I'm 50 people think that they should tell me, it's like a mirror mystic. So they still feel like, are you still waiting for this thing to happen? Or they shame you to feel, but why are you like that? You know, you can get, you can get, go, look, for, can we introduce you to someone?

11:18It's like these are things that somebody has to give me because I have fails to get them for myself. Which is wrong. I haven't failed this. I love this life. It's the perfect life for me. I feel it may not be for everyone, but it's perfect for me. And I think that's what matters the most. And everybody should only really do life the way it's perfect for them, not what everybody tells them, not to leave somebody else's life. Because somebody else who's married and has kids and is happy with it, it's great. That's their choice, that's their life. But I will not compare myself to that and feel less of a woman because I'm not fitting what society dictates. That woman, 50-year-old life should be. So I'm happy with my life. This is my life. I love this so much. And we're about to get to a new beginning that we started in your fifth chapter, which is just of inspiring. And I can't wait for us to share that with everyone. But let's stop at this full-life thing.

12:19I think it's a very important space. Because for a long time, it was like a one-size-fits-all definition on what a full-life looks like for a woman. So we were all meant to have kids. We were all meant to get married into a man. We were all meant, even working with like, if you want. But the full-life had these two ingredients. And when did you decide to define a full life for yourself and what do you define it as? So I think maybe towards my, as I was approaching 40. OK. At that time, I had that fear, the natural fear, and come out of a long relationship which didn't work out. I felt that I had invested so much of that time. And now I had nothing to show for it. In that time, I think what society would have expected of it. I didn't come out of it with a marriage.

13:20I didn't come out of it with children. I was getting into 40. I felt like the window was narrowing to what society expects to be this perfect full-life. And I was standing 40. And I was single, and I had no children. And it bubbly, and it hit me in a place where I would say it. Hit my confidence a lot. I questioned myself. I didn't trust myself a lot because I said, maybe it was me. I blamed myself a lot. But also other people sort of said, no, no, no. Why are you working away 100%? You're going to be 40. You shouldn't just hold on to it. It's the wrong time to give up after you've wasted. To me, in my mind, I was calling it wasted because that's what I felt. And then I turned 40. And I said, you know what? It is what it is. It's happened. I'm not going back. So I said, I started writing down.

14:21I said, what will my life look like now going forward? This has happened. So do I want children? Do I want to get married? No. Am I happy with my job at the time I was? What else? What does this full life mean for me? So I defined it. I said, I want to make great friends. I lost a lot of that relationship. I realized that there was people taking sides. There were people who knew of things that they didn't tell me. And maybe I would have made different choices. And I really cut off and chose the kind of friendships that I wanted, the kind of friends who I wanted. I wrote down a lot of things about the way I wanted my future to look. In this new future, now that I hadn't clearly told myself that I didn't want what society wanted. And then I started living it day by day. It impacted the choices I made. I said, yes to some things, no to some things. Because I realized that it's very difficult.

15:23It was scary. It wasn't easy because I was literally moving away from even my mom's expectations. She wanted a child. She wanted it to be married. She had expectations. And I was, in many ways, disappointing those dreams that she had of what my life would look like. And I said, no, no, no, it has to be for me. And it took us many conversations. Before she reached a point where she realized that these choices I had made were making me happy. And if I was happy, then she was happy. It took us a long time, many conversations. It wasn't easy by any means. But bit by bit, she could see my independence. She could see that I could take care of my future. Of course, I believe a lot of it was the worry and the belief of what security marriage brings. And there's a lot to discuss around that. And that because I could give myself back to a way that she could trust it, then she would, you know, easily.

16:26And she gave me a way to continue expanding into this space. Obviously being a second born and a sister behind me and a brother and feeling like what will this impact on them will they make the same choices. But I told her it's about them making their own choices. Not my choices, not hard choices. Their choices. And in this way, if they gain anything from me choosing myself, then she should be happy for them. So it was a long journey. But the more of it that I did, the freer it made me. And the more I appreciated, it's not a half life as people say. Yeah. For me, it was my definition of a full life. And now everybody accepts it as my full life. Less and less do I hear of critical, you know, comments around being child-free, not married, being paired everywhere that we go. Not being invited into some places

17:27because I don't have a plus one. Not a plus one being forced on me, you know, automatically when I get somewhere, there's someone there. And I see less and less on that. And I love it because it means that then everybody's accepting my life as my life and as a full life. Yeah. I love when you talk about your mom's advice, because I think for very many older generations, marriage, and having a child within a marriage represented safety and security, there was a many generations of women who couldn't access certain freedoms if they didn't have the man, if they didn't have the children, right? And so sometimes when you get advice, think contextually, I guess like he did. And when she saw, oh, so she still got the safety as a security as she's good. You know? It's so strange. It was not that at one point which to me was a great step forward. She said, you know, you don't have to get married, but you can still have children.

18:28Many people would think that that would not be progress. I really took it as progress because already she could see me as unmarried, which was a big step where normally before she wasn't. And she could see me being, you know, a single parent, which even for how was a big leap? Because she's very traditional. And of course, you know, even today, people are still judged for being single parents, whether it's by choice, whether it's by divorce. It's society still has a lot of negativity around that sort of parenthood. And it doesn't have to be. So for me, even that was progress. And there's nothing wrong with it. You know, there's nothing wrong with it. How have you built spaces that are comfortable for you? Stop wasting your nights on a mattress that doesn't get you. Experience the most comfortable mattress in the world. The sleep number smart bed at the touch of a button. You can personalize your comfort,

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20:30This is what I mean. So I'm single, divorced, child-free. I'm living alone in a completely different town. And I have an incredible community who are also women who are so much child-free, so they're very awakened. And we've found that societies, spaces for community, are built for women who follow the patriarchal rules. And when you don't, as you actually do get left out and you have to start building these spaces from scratch or like, OK, I guess we can all meet every first of this day. You know what I mean? Did you experience having to build what community looks like? Absolutely. It started with my family. I'm very close with my family, extremely close. So for me, they are always a safe space. Because whatever difficult conversation we have,

21:30we find ways to navigate them. And because we've always been very close, it has always helped to be, you could speak openly and say, you know, what that's not for me? This is for me. So they were the first safe space. Because we've always encouraged that openness. However difficult it is, we've somehow get through it. This second group, I have friends that I have known for years and remain friends with regardless. Left the country, come back. But we've been, I find that I've always, in a sort of way, that I've always had younger friends. And I feel that I've had younger friends because I have always allowed many open, you know, people to be open. Yeah. People to be themselves, people to discuss things that maybe they can discuss either in their groups, in their families, with their parents. For whatever reason, I've always provided that safety. And therefore, I have gotten friendships that then also then allow me to also be safe in that space. So I have created a lot of spaces that maybe did not exist

22:33for me. But also the most comfortable person living by myself. I live alone. I, isn't it? I'm great. I love it. I cannot explain to you how I love it. Even in this cup here. It's here. It's not a growing leg. I love it. But for very many people, I realize that it's extremely uncomfortable. So everybody who comes to visit me says, but don't you miss people? One, I say, I tap into them and then I tap out. Yeah. And I really tap out of it. Because I have learned to love my space. I have created it. I love reading. I love documentaries. I love learning. Yeah. I explore a lot of things. And then I'm extremely comfortable in myself. And I think a lot of people, because when you're silent, you have to listen to the day ones coming. Yes. And for people, that's not comfortable. So I feel like a lot of times when people seek out these things,

23:36it's not necessarily for one of these things. It is mostly because you run away from yourself. But if you're comfortable with yourself, I find that I'm comfortable in other people's places without it getting to me. So I easily fit in. So what you're saying is, I have a very small group of friends. But I easily fit in with people because I know I'm going to go back to my space. I'm going to be happy there when I'm there, because I'm happy to be with them. But then I'm going to go back into my space where I'm fully happy with myself. So I'm not looking for anybody to feel any space for me. And it's difficult for many people, but it works for me. Yeah. This is my first time living alone, and I can't imagine how many people I live in. I'm telling you, I always say that. And it's such a strange thing that when I tell you that I had to ask myself many questions, it's so odd that from when I was very young, I always wanted to live by myself. I never wanted to share my space with anybody.

24:38Even when I was in a long-term relationship, I would spend some few days, but I always wanted to be back in my space. And that should have told me a lot. But when I was young, but it tells you how we also dull. We're socialized. Reduce what it is you desire. Yes, this is what you should be. And also, we never tap into what do I really want, often enough to hear yourself. So we really let everybody else's voice tell us things. And I realize more and more, the more I really listen to myself, I've always known what I want. It's just that now I confidently leave it. I confidently say it. But it wasn't that easy, but I have learned to build that voice from a whisper to allow no, I don't want that. That she trusts. That doesn't work for me. Yes. Yes. This is just such a young. Reconversation, my goodness. In three years ago, you were 53. You made a huge decision.

25:39And it's a decision that most people would think because of how we socialize, because of patriarchy, and how it views the value of women, or what a woman's life should look like. People would think, oh, my goodness. No, this is not the time for that. Maybe when you were 20 something or 30, you started a business with two of your friends. Yes. Yes. OK, so take me to write before we did this pivot. Yes. So I used to work for WPPSCAN Group. I was the managing director. But before I was the managing director, I had been there for 20 years. I literally grew through the ranks. And 20 years in one place that gave me stability, gave me a salary. In many ways, give me what people are like calling like a title, something that you're recognized for. And then in 2023, we got a new CEO who said, I don't think this leadership team is future fit.

26:39You're not the right fit for the way the organization wants to go. We want to go younger. We want to think all these things. And so obviously, we were confronted with the fact that if you're not future fit, what is next? And my two friends at the time, this former CEO Sandip of SCAN Group and the Chief Creative Officer, DPES, we had always been good friends. We hadn't thought about it. I mean, we were working. It was a successful business. No reason to think that we will not be here for the next few years. But then in a month, the decision was made that there was this voluntary exit, which you are being encouraged to take. And therefore, initially, it didn't occur to us. Like, I hadn't really thought about it. As I said, in the back of my mind, the reason people used to ask me, why did you work there for 20 years? You couldn't have worked at any marketing job. You were successful.

27:39But I always knew that I wanted to own my own business. From when I was young. And I used to tell people, when I leave SCAN Group, I will own my own business. For years, people used to say, oh, no, sadly, there's this job, there's this job. And I wouldn't take them. Why are you transitioning to marketing brand? I used to tell them, when I leave here, I'll start my own business. So we had this one month. So one day, I called depression, Sandeep, and we go and see if we used to have another place in the Pesh's house. There's a bench. That's where we used to call front-wing discussions. I told them, let's meet there. And I told them, why don't we start our own agency? Not like what? Sandeep said, I know where I don't want to do advertising. Anything else but advertising. The past was like, what? I have a young child. This is such a risk. I can't risk this now in my life. But I'm a very persuasive person. As they go to learn. I said, what is there to lose? Together, we've done this.

28:41We were practically running this organization. The Pesh is very good at creative. I'm not good at creative. Sandeep is a big dreamer, big picture thinker. Can't take us anywhere. You know he's inspirational. Some operations, I think, no one hands down, no one can beat me. I said, we compliment each other so well. That's the three ingredients for us to start our business. I kept on talking to them. In June, they say, OK, let's think of a name. Like, ah, we are in. But it was, everybody thinks maybe it wasn't scary. It was scary because when you worked for 20 years, you get into a comfort zone. I knew it. I could do it with my eyes closed. But now I was going to do something which I didn't know. I'd never built a business. I didn't know how to run a business. And you had to advise other people. It was a challenging time, even in the industry. There was a lot of change. So Bravado, we say, we are going to get all the businesses

29:42that we had, of course not. It doesn't work that way. I can even say, I worked up something. Just make someone say, if you want self-developed business. Yes. Start a business. No, no. We wrote at least one day when we were sitting in gastro. Yeah. 20. Oh, these will come with us, my goodness. Yeah, one, none. Yeah, two, none. Oh, my dear. Eagle. Bugs, seed. Tumbling. Yes, we were like, oh, we'll start with millions. We'll be getting big fees there. No, no, no, you're new now. Introduce yourself again. Who are you? But that is where I learned that you see the experience that we had. You cannot put any value to it. From day one, we could have, I could walk into any office. Initially, they would say no. But with time, they would say yes. The experience we had, the network we had, the relationships we had, the two, I wouldn't have done it alone. I can't tell you that today.

30:44Having two people that we can sound of each other, we can cry, shout, scream. This is not working. We could support each other emotionally. In many ways, knowing each other, relying on each other, trusting them. And we were able to do something that even up to, as I sit here, it is extremely surreal. Today we are, I would say maybe the second largest creative agency. Probably in East Africa, you know, even though in Wider, we have achieved humongous things. You know, what we could never have dreamt of. But I think it is because of the belief that we had, the experience that we invested in year on year on year when I was saying 20 years. All of it was building up into something that I today pulled out so easily. And the people who worked for me say, how do you know that? I said years on. Building, building, building, learning. And the more we did, the more we trusted ourselves.

31:45The more we achieved something, the more our teams believed in. Because we started, we were five in a garden. And today, you know, we have two floors here in a building. We have 120 staff. But it's, it's tenacity. It is one day at a time. It is fighting those fears. It is doing what you, you know, to me, in many ways, I'm an introvert that people don't believe that when I say it. But it is in being very out there when it was needed. It is in speaking to CEOs who put in my shyness aside and saying, I need to do this for my business. There are very many things that justify it. I said, it's for your business, so you have to do it. And it really just gave me the courage to do it because I was like, who's going to do it? There's no one else. That's the thing about going to do it. It's right. It doesn't get done. Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to touch on. So when you're leaving, you're told you're not future, future future fits, right?

32:52And why that stood out for me is like when I was leaving traditional radio. I resigned maybe two months before I turned 30. And in the negotiations to try and get me to stay, I remember one of my managers saying, you know, actually, you, because you're almost 30, right? Yeah. And thinking of even migrating you to this other station, which is for an older audience. And I remember being like a person who was confused because I was like, my co-host at the time was in his 40s. I'm like, if we're being migrating, we all nods. Why is it for women? It's a different, you know? Absolutely. And then I also felt like my career was being controlled by someone. I wasn't even in that meeting. You're not asking me if I want to move to that station. I don't. You know? Absolutely. And I'm relying all of that with that thing on like your value as a woman, as your age,

33:54decreases as far as what society is trying to push down. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of a camera, the versatility of a RAV4, the efficiency of a Corolla, or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event ends soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of a camera, the versatility of a RAV4, the efficiency of a Corolla, or all electric driving in the BZ.

34:55There's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event ends soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. So at that point, how do you receive this news that you've been told you're not future fit and you know underlying is they're trying to say you because of your age, perhaps you're not valuable here. Yeah. I mean, I think at first I was, because I hadn't, I knew I was going to leave, but it wasn't then. I felt, you know, maybe you want or two more years. But when it came, when the moment it came, I felt maybe this is it, you know, because I had always said anyway, you need to start your own thing. But I'll never forget the words that struck me. At the time that CEO told me, I'm going to make you a leader.

35:59And I remember being so shocked, I stared at it and I said, what do you mean you're going to make? I am the current MD of this organization. What do you mean you're going to make me and make me, how do you make me? You can make me anything. Those words struck me and I said, you know, what maybe it's time to leave because that means I was so confident. I, in my eyes, I was a leader. In my eyes, I had contributed to this organization being where it was to some huge extent if you asked me. And obviously as much as I was scared and to start, I said, but I have all the ingredients. That's when I was like, okay, you have a network. You have these two people you're doing, you're not doing it alone. I tomorrow I can call a client and do a pitch. I have a, what it takes and it made me so sure that sentence, it brought everything to the forefront. And because sometimes you take it for granted that you do have these things. You do have these capabilities. You have contributed.

37:01But somehow when you, when I was employed, I was doing it for somebody else, but it was almost not hitting me that I can absolutely do this for myself. Yeah. And so that's what I took with me from day one. I, you will make me a leader, but I'm already a leader questioning all that, believing it, saying it to myself, you are all these things. You can do it for yourself. I've been doing it. Yeah. And so I said, I'll just be doing it. But for myself. I have what it takes. And what I don't know, I will learn. I said, I'll learn finance some of the deeper things that I've relied on somebody. I'll learn what I don't have. And I will rely on these partners to bring what they bring that I don't have. Yeah. And we'll do it. My take time, and it took time. It didn't take salaries for one and a half years. Yeah. Invested in investment. It was tough. Don't be fooled by people think this three years success that we have. Our first, my first client paid us 250,000 shillings. And in fact, when we were pushing for payment, said, you guys don't have any money.

38:04You mean, let me pay you so that you can have money and you stop harassing me for payment. I'll never forget it. And I said, what? Yes, we need the money. We're running a small business. We have to pay salaries. Yes. And I, you know, I have no shame. I said, yes. Yeah. I need that money. You know, nothing was too small for us. Yeah. And I think that's a mindset that you have to have. Sure. Because when you come from being a successful agency, handling big clients from the EABS, Safari, big clients and getting big retainers, it took us a moment to say, you know what? Yes. However, we are going to start. We are going to start. Yeah. Nothing is going to be too small. We are going to do it because we will compound, compound, compound. And here we are today. But I think if we hadn't, if we had ego and felt we could only handle those big clients, we could only. Yeah. The experience was only right for a certain type. Yeah. We would have really limited ourselves and we would never have experienced what we have experienced. Yeah. We would never have grown the way we grew.

39:06We really took a chance on ourselves. We took a chance on clients that did not look like the clients we were used to. And we just really believed that we had something to offer. Yeah. Yeah. I keep saying you have to have like an almost delusional belief in yourself for business. Like, we call it audacity. Yeah. We are the most audacious. Like, we never, I never think anything is impossible. Yeah. Or I can't ask, even I asked them, I start here and my colleague always says, I'm like, no, what's the worst that they can say? Yeah. And every time I come and say, can you imagine they bought it? Yeah. He's always like, what? And it's really just gives us more encouragement that, you know, we were right, that every effort we had ever made in our past was building to this because it never works. It's not like I never tell people that this can also happen to you if you don't put in the work. Absolutely. You have to put in the work. These were years and years of hard days. Yeah.

40:06Peach losses, tough, you know, being fired by clients. Yeah. Every learning, it's the learning that we took forward. The persistence in also improving what we had to offer because I kept on telling, nobody is going to pay us because I'm Sally and your depression, you're in Sandeep. What does that mean? Yeah. Nothing. And it's even worse now because we have put our names on the door. So I always tell my team, it's not, it's me. Yeah. You know, it's me, it's my name. You know, it's what we promised this client. And I'm a bit tough on the teams because I tell them we are building excellence. We are doing things in a different way from what people are used to. And even sometimes when I confront the client, or I ask them to sort of step up, they get surprised because I'm telling them if you want better, it has to be both ways. I can't just do better. You also have to do better. And we have turned down businesses when we really needed the money, but because we want

41:10to build a particular type of business, then we have had to say no. And to me, that does not only apply in business. Being no is hard sometimes even in life. Saying no to things that temptation, to think that you want, just so that you can achieve that dream. Yeah. You will have to give up a lot. You will have to say no to yourself a lot. Yeah. But I think in the end, it will help you get faster to that dream, that full life, that that you had written. And I'm going to say that you wrote down in your essay, you try. And like Satya, a woman who is watching, what would you want to tell her about starting at any point at any age, pivoting or changing your mind at any point at any age? Because I think we feel like the life that we got into in our 20s beat the job is the job we're going to, or even the industry, we're going to have to stay in there from 20s to 70.

42:10You know? What would you want to tell her about pivoting and starting afresh? I truly believe you can start at any time. I think the most important thing is to first listen to that in my voice. What do you want to do? Truly, truly. Ignore everything you've been told. Ignore voices that tell you stay in your marriage. Stay in that job. Stay in that business. The business is dying, but I've put in so much. I think at any time you give yourself permission to say enough, this is not working, it's the time to pivot. But I think more than anything, it is you to give yourself that permission. I think we wait for somebody to come and say, oh, you look sad, you look depressed. You know, you wait for somebody to tell you it's time to let go. Somebody is going to tell you to do what's right for you. It is only you because it is only you who knows what's right for you.

43:13In businesses today, I think when we're chatting earlier, I said there is a statistic that says actually the most successful businesses are actually women-led businesses and women are actually starting in their 50s. There is no time. And I tell you, I have a suspicion that when you get into your 50s and men oppose especially you, it's like there is a clarity of mind that was never there. And it gets so easy to see things. And I believe that you can either embrace them or give in to society, say it. But if you embrace them and give yourself permission, the world is your oyster. It's never lit. As long as you are energetic, as long as you remain curious, as long as you bring your best to it, even if it doesn't work out, you will say, I did it. You will never regret and say, oh my, I should have done it. And I think to me, what drives me is that I don't want to regret. I want to say, I explored it. It didn't work out, but it led to something else and it led to something else.

44:16Because to me, that's living. Living is not passive. It's not succeeding all the time. It's not always been happy. Sometimes it's crying alone in your house, wondering what's going to happen next. But waking up the next day and saying, just one day, one try, one new thing, one small thing. And it just builds from there. You cannot give up unless you're dead. You should not give up. Just try it. Find your place. Find your little thing. Wangeramata used to say small thing. But look what it did for her. It was her small thing. Find your small thing. It will become something. This was my small thing. I was encouraged so much even when I was living that business to do farming, to do something else. But I said, I will do what I know. And I said, do what you know and you can be successful at any age. Do what you know. I love this because I think in season one, one of my friends, first friend, I made in limo room, Mary, she's in her sixties.

45:18And she taught her, she's a full on farm and now doing incredibly well. She taught herself on YouTube in her sixties. See? She was curious and started reading everything I know about farming. Mary taught me. Yes, I've seen her. And she did trial and error and she'd watch things on YouTube. So now we swap TikTok. I'm like, I saw someone propagated like this. You want to try. See, just remain curious. Any age, you know. Be open here. You're learning. And be open. I also want to touch on how age, that statistic. And let businesses started by women in their fifties, most successful businesses, right? Meet the Red Bull Dragonberry Emergize. It's one of the many new drinks out now. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all only at McDonald's. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on.

46:19Whether you're looking for the performance of a camera, the versatility of Arab 4, the efficiency of a Corolla or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event ends soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. How has your age been your strength? I think for the longest time we talk about it being our weakness, how has your age been your strength? I think it has been my strength because I realized that I am more experienced than I ever was. I am more confident than I ever was. When you're young, you're clouded by other voices, the older you are, the sharper your

47:24voice becomes so to speak because you tend to know what you want. You can say yes to this without fear. When you're younger, sometimes you fear who's in the room, what will they think? You fear judgment? No, I don't care. I don't want anybody to give me permission to do anything. I'm sure of myself. Also, I really less and less find like I care about other people's opinions. When it comes to what I want and who I am. So I don't care. I'm like, OK, that's OK. You're moving on. You know, so you really become this fully into yourself. I trust myself. I believe in myself. I believe that as you get older, there's less time ahead of you. I almost feel this imperative to not care about all these other things, to really use my ears well. And so I use them well. I say, what is it that I've always wanted to do?

48:26And then I say, OK, let's try and see how we can get about it. And in all spheres, not just business. I've always been interested. Like yesterday I was in a shop and I've always wanted to learn how to crochet. And I bought this for kids. It's a box to learn how to crochet. And I was like, OK, here's my chance. I'm going to start with this thing. But if I learn, I want my family, all of them, and I'm going to crochet. They are getting so accruciated. But I think it's this little joys that you give yourself, these little explorations into just different things. I always want to say, well, I haven't done it. And so I said, OK, in the evening, I have time going to crochet. And I'm going to explore all these things. Because more of my life is behind me now. And I think, therefore, you should be shapa. And if you can start earlier to sharpen towards that full life, define what it is and go for it. Yes. I love that. Define it. And don't wait for someone to come and give it to you. It's even sweeter when you give it to you.

49:27I think they will give you theirs. They won't give you yours. You can only give you yours. And everybody should find theirs. They cannot tell you what yours should be. And I think that's the mistake. Because if you listen to them, you are so unfulfilled. Because it's not you. And I say, that voice is always there. We just dial it down. You know what you want. It's there. I did yoga for three years. At a time when my life, I was finding so much people. And I kept on thinking, what can I do? And then I decided, let me do yoga. Because when I read about it, I just found people so zen. Even people used to do yoga. I just find them looking so peaceful. So I said, I'm going to do it. So I went to yoga teacher who used to come to my house three times a week. And she asked me, what do you want out of this class? I said, actually, I just want peace of mind. At that time, I wasn't sleeping well. I just used to find my life was in total upheaval. And she used to come in the morning and you would do this practice. And initially, it was so hard.

50:27And she said, it as you become more peaceful, it will be easier. The practice will be. And I never used to believe her. But then one day, I would do something that I used to think was impossible. And she would tell me, and it would be hard to do it again because it just came naturally. And I think that finding that space where you can have that peace to hear yourself is so important. Because we are so distracted, whether it's a mobile, whether it's crawling, whether it becomes so easy to not listen to yourself. So whether it's the way you take walks, whatever it is, find that quiet space and listen to yourself. And as soon as you do it, the sooner your joy will come, the sooner your life will become fuller, the sooner you will do all these great things. And when people say, I'm confident, I wasn't confident. Sometimes I'm not confident. Some days I walk into a client's office and I'm like, oh, my God. But I stand up there and I say, you've done this a million times.

51:29You can do it again. And the worst they can say is no. And you'll get another chance to do it and you'll do it better. I confront all the worst that can happen. And then I just do it. Yeah. More often than not, it actually just does work out. This is so awesome. I love this. I love this energy. I love that you're sharing it with us, even while you're on the journey. Because it will help a lot of women redefine their woman who had for themselves and not given to this whole either by 30. I need to have the kids, the partner that is, or that by 40, I'm expired. Just like who said that? If whoever you believe created you thought that you should expire by 40. Wouldn't you all die by 40? I'm telling you. I'm telling you. It's an odd thing, but I think it's important for me to say. My mom was an entrepreneur. Like when I never knew anybody like my mom. Most people's moms either stayed at home or worked in formal employment.

52:31My mom was employed when I was young. But when she got all of us, she decided to take a break until we were at an age where she could then go back to work. But when it came to going back to work, she decided why not start a business? Many years ago, when Sarit center was still new, she had a shop she used to sell uniforms. Many years, imagine. At a time when there were no women doing that. Yeah. My mom, to me, is a big part of why I am the way I am. Because she showed me things even at that young age that nobody else was showing me. And today, she is in her late 70s. She likes cheating us as she's in her 80s. She's like, when she sees this. But she always wanted to own a school. And when she retired, she built a school up country. And she runs the school. And she is the most energetic person of an old person that you will see. Every day she wakes up earlier than me. In fact, sometimes when I feel it is in my bed, I'm like, my mom, you're really awake. You know, and it's like, why am I lying in here?

53:33But she's full of energy. And I believe when I watch her, I say it's because of that. It's because she has a purpose. Because she wakes up with something that she always wanted to do that she's doing. It's something that she loves. So to her, it's not work. It's just something that she does. She gives back to her community. That's her community. She wanted to give better education in a place where people don't have a lot of money. And the reason I bring highs because it's easy sometimes to credit all these to myself. She played a huge part in me being me. She showed me something that many people did not see necessarily from their moms or just from women around them. And I remember four years, my dad walked abroad. And she said, but I can't just sit there and just be beautiful next to you. I have to do something. And she came home and started farming, started building the school. And it really showed me something.

54:34And I aspired so much to be like her. And to me, I believe that the part of who I am, a huge part, is because of the way she was. The way she did things almost in her time when society expected her to be different. To be actually to conform, to travel with my dad, but to be a housewife. And to say no to that and say no. What happens when you come home and retire, we have nothing. We have no house in the farm. We have no home. The kids don't have a home. And they are just traveling all over the place. And I bring that only to say sometimes we really don't see that person right in front of us. And we credit so many other people. In my life, I credit my mom. More than any other person, she inspired me. And even I think some of the decisions and risks I took, she doesn't see it, that she did it before me. She started a business when nobody was starting a business. She took risks when nobody was taking a risk.

55:37She didn't see it at home when she could have, because she could have. But she wanted to always show us a different part of life. And even when she would question me almost into conforming, and when I would question her, she never really understood that she was totally against what society. She burned to you. She showed you absolutely how to be able to live. And sometimes I remind her, I don't have, but you know, I'm just like you. Absolutely. And the question that you normally ask at the end about the people who inspire you, even a nice city, I think I've been thinking about it, and I say it actually, to be honest, it's truly my mom. Yeah. Till today, at the age, she's 76, 77. But she is lively. If she came here, you would have five different conversations with her. She's curious. She's an agetic.

56:38She wants to be part of society. She's social. She still goes to the club. You know, she still has a gin and tonic in there. And you know, she's, to me, at her age, she's still doing this. She has a great group of friends. They go to the club in the afternoon, on a Wednesday, and she calls me to tell me they're just having lunch. And I aspire to that. Yeah. To me, that is living life well. Yeah. And I really wish many people would see somebody like that who could really inspire them because you can't do it, even at 70. Yeah. There's no reason to stay in your house and you know, just sort of, let society forget you. No. You can still participate. You can be present. You can give everything you have to this life. Yeah. And I believe when you do life really gives it all back. It meets you. Yeah. It meets you. Oh my goodness, Sally. This is such an incredible conversation. And as we wrap up, what's your man-less message to the woman

57:41who's watching it? You can see it. Yes. My message is be as ungovernable as you can be. Do not allow anybody to tell you what your life should be, who you should be. Don't let anybody give you permission, give yourself permission. And many times, do it and ask for permission later. Whatever it is, you feel that it's pushing you one way or another. And go for it. Live life fully. Whoever you have to cross to live your life, believe your truth, do it. Console them. Block them. Be ungovernable. I love that so much. You get it. It's pretty her not to show us. Thank you so much, Sally, for being on the show. It's all been incredible. Thank you, Adel. I feel like it's been five minutes. Yeah, right. We could just keep going. Thank you.

58:42Thank you. Thank you for what you do. And thank you for having me. This has been incredible. I have learned so much. And I hope you have been watching. Have many gems that you've taken away from Sally. And of course, in the description of this episode, we'll put links to Sally's platform than any resources that can help you be ungovernable. All right. Absolutely. And do not forget though that we are having our first ever for Manaless Women Live on the 26th of September. And so if you want to be there, which I think you really should, at the very end of this episode, is a QR code that you can scan to get more details. Or in the description, there's a link that you can click as well. And remember to subscribe so you do not miss out on the next episode. But as always, share this with any Manaless or almost Manaless Women in your life. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪

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