It’s Time to Give Nick Offerman (‘Parks and Recreation’) His Flowers

0:00Someone sends me an email and says, will you narrate this documentary about beavers? Ha! Now what the fuck are you supposed to say to that? Like how do you say anything but you're God damn right? I will narrate your beaver documentary. I don't know if you need to do the beavers. I think the real question is neck. I don't need to. I get to. You get to. This is talk easy. I'm Santa for girl so welcome to the show. Today actor author would worker Nick Offerman. He first came on talk easy in 2021 around the release of his book Where the deer and the antelope play.

1:02But in true offerman fashion this is a man who stays remarkably busy. Origin, civil war, the last of us, all of which we cover in today's episode. But we begin with his new turn in the Emmy nominated series Margot's Got Money Troubles, streaming on Apple TV. It's the kind of complicated, emotionally rich character. Offerman as said he's always wanted to play but never got an opportunity to do so. We also discuss his role in the true crime film Sovereign, his return to the stage alongside his wife Megamalali and his new audio series on WNYC dedicated to the poetry of writer and farmer Wendell Berry. In seminal books like The Unsettling of America and the Gift of Good Land, Berry extolled America's agrarian past from his cabin in the backwoods of Kentucky, writing mostly in pencil and without electrical light. I give all that context because we tape this episode just three days before Berry passed away at the age of 92. And yet as you'll hear his spirit hovers over large portions of this conversation.

2:06He was a huge influence on Offerman on and off the page dating back to the first time Nick discovered Wendell's work in the early 1990s. And so it seems only fitting that we dedicate this episode on Labor Day weekend no less and memory of Berry and all he inspired and readers, including the one and only Nick Offerman. Nick Offerman, welcome back to the show. Thank you. What a sincere pleasure and privilege to be here. How you doing, man? I'm good. I'm maintaining equilibrium. I'm very good at my disposition, despite the state of the world. How do you maintain? I'm very interested in people who make things tangibly with their hands. So I run my wood shop here in Los Angeles. And I talk to people about things like farming and woodworking, who people who aren't involved in industrial agriculture or any of the billionaire pursuits.

3:11And that gives me optimism. People's kids who want to learn about fishing or like treehouse building or just like have a conversation or read a book. And we never talk about apps or TikTok or all of the cancers. Since we last spoke, you have been exceptionally busy, which is always the case. You were recently nominated for Margot's Got Money Troubles, playing a father, a retired fighter and a recovering addict, who has recently moved in with his daughter and her young child to help out around the house. And I think also to stay clean, I think it's a dual mission statement there. You described the part recently as uncharted territory after 30 years of making work. Tell me about the waters. What felt so different? Well, I mean, I've had a great time for 30 years, but by and large, there are characters in a show that you care about. They're emotional journey. And that's what the narrative is, therefore. And sometimes in that story,

4:13they would get on a bus. And so, and I would be the guy driving the bus. Or I would be the plumber who would show up. So I would be a tangential character to the main emotional core of the story. You'd be a pit stop on the journey. Yeah. There were touches of Ron Swanson and person Rick, where we obviously cared about Ron's emotional journey. But because it's a pretty fast moving sitcom, it never goes too deep. And so that and then that nice job I got on the one episode of the last of us on HBO, which was a deeply emotional storyline. Then people said, oh, it has feelings. And then you're it in this case. Yeah. And so now, so they're like, we need we need a thuggish wrestler, but who also like makes us feel things. I don't mean to get too personal to early, you know, I never want to get you know, me. Does Megan describe you as it as well?

5:16On Tuesdays, I'm allowed in the house. And depending on how I've been, if I've been a good boy that week, then I'm allowed to wash myself. And then there's a list of things we get to participate in. But what's on the list? No, that's too personal. That's where we draw the line. But it has been promised to me that very soon we will consummate our marriage. And I've been sticking around. Almost 23 years now, right? That's right. Wow. So the thing is to to get to play a guy who has these complicated emotional relationships with my daughter, Elphan and my and my daughter's mother played by Michelle Fyfer, my former fling is daunting and quite thrilling to get to you know, to the writing of Davidi Kelly and Eva Anderson and their support staff. I heard you call the part right before the show came out, quote, a terrifying act that I spend all night thinking,

6:23good God, are they going to get it? Or am I going to die a frustrated artist? Is that really what it felt like? That there may be a touch of hyperbole just because I generally don't feel a lot of fear thankfully. And so I ultimately I know the worst thing that's going to happen at work is everyone shrugs and says, well, I guess we better move on. What should happen sometimes? But generally with this, the arena continues to be scarier. Where, you know, what do you mean? I just feel like the stakes keep getting higher in a great way. This, you know, I just feel like this part, I haven't had a part that was this substantially important to a show to be like one of the three main characters that has all this stuff going on. And part of it is just wanting to, you know, be up to the task. I love working for

7:30great generals to make a military metaphor with like David E. Kelly and our director, Deerville Walsh. I want to, you know, if they're going to send me to the front line, I want to be up to the task. And so it comes from growing up with my mom and dad who armed me very well with life skills. And I've had a very satisfying life trying to do a good job with what they gave me. Well, can you take a look at what that good job looks like? Sure. This is from Margot's Got Money Troubles. In the scene that we're going to watch, we find your character, Jinx, showing up at his daughter's doorstep, fresh out of rehab. I thought you might be dead. I'm not dead. I just found out. I was in rehab to take away your phone. Rehab. I came as soon as I was, I'm so sorry. And I'm here. I'm here.

8:37Wonderful side note. That jacket is my motorcycle jacket from when I was in college. And my dear friend, Rob Kimmel, who does ink art, did the art on the back of it as an original piece. And then my other friend, Martin McClendon, reproduced it on the jacket because his specialty was airbrushing. And so I still have the jacket. And I said, you guys, can I wear this jacket as Jinx? So it's actually quite prevalent in the show. And at the bottom of the art, Martin added the words watch me burn, which was this whole other story. I was framing houses for these born again Christian brothers. And I accidentally lit this big pile of refuse on fire and blew myself off of it

9:42and burned off my hair and eyebrows. And I was screaming, watch me burn boys because they used to admonish me jokingly for engaging in sin as a teenager. And so I was splashing gasoline on the house. Were you then? It was 18 19. It was right around college time. Yeah, it was making making money for college. Right. You were thinking about doing theater. And I was screaming, I'm going to do it boys, watch me burn. That line, I'm going to do it boys, watch me burn, could also double as like, I'm going to go to Los Angeles and be an actor. It very well could watch me burn. And that was why I painted on my jacket as I rode my fat 1979 Kawasaki to Champaign Urbana, to make my fortune. I think it's kind of amazing that that a piece of your past could show up in present work, work that as you said before you woke up in the middle of the night before it came out thinking, am I ever going to be able to make something like this? Am I going to remain as you

10:47said a frustrated artist? And so once you're on the other side of that, playing this part of Jinx, who is a recovering addict, I think he got hooked on pills at first after he suffered an injury. He was a fighter. He got hurt in the ring. As I remember from our last two conversations, you're someone in your personal life who to me seems like a model of moderation and restraint. But is there any area that tips over into an unhealthy place for you? How dare you? That's a very good question. The closest I come, I sort of figured out in hindsight when I moved in with Megan and began playing my troath to one day bed her as my legal property. One day a week. That's right. I realized in

11:50hindsight, I was very hedonistic in my late 20s. I was smoking a lot of cigarettes and marijuana and drinking a lot of alcohol. Partly for escapism and out of like depression of not sure what direction my life was taking. This isn't your early to mid-twenties. You move here from Chicago. You're in a silver lake apartment. We called it Rancho Relaxo. It was the name of our place. When I moved in with Megan and my best friend Pat met his wife and they moved in together, we figured out we were graduating into adulthood or attempting to do so. Since then, I've taken Megan's example gladly. We have a great teacher student relationship to live more cleanly and enjoy my desserts as desserts not as entrees. Don't have cake all the time as it were. I mean, so to answer your question, when I do fall to the sin of excess, it's usually

12:54with food, usually eating something delicious to the point of pain. And Tom's. Yeah. I mean, cognitively saying don't do it. I know. And then the piece of pizza says, you got to have to. You're not going to leave me sit here. Though I want to push on one thing, which is every time we've exchanged a text message, you are always away from home on a job, working, working, working, working. Ladies and gentlemen, this is how he does it. You're right. You have researched my shit and you have perceived this very clearly. My vice is, I can't stop saying yes to fun jobs. I'm a little I'm surprised that I'm still surprised by you because I'm always impressed by your work. But that's absolutely the the excess that I'm dealing with when I'm dealing with excess is.

13:57I mean, I was just in Chicago doing a musical with Megan called Ice Boy, which we're hoping will be in New York in a year. Ice Boy exclamation point starring Megan Malale. It's at the Goodman Theater. It sold out. Apparently like it sold at the most seats you were telling me this. I was insane. It was the end of their hundredth season. And we broke their record for ticket sales. It's crazy. It's really crazy. The long ways away from doing carpentry and working at Steppenwolf when you're 20 years old. 100% it was it was really wonderful. And Megan and I had both worked there 30 years ago for me 40 years ago for her. But while we're there, someone sends me an email and says, well, you narrate this documentary about beavers. Now what the fuck are you supposed to say to that? Like how do you say anything, but you're goddamn right. I will narrate your beaver documentary. I don't know if you need to do the beavers. I think the real question is negative. I

14:58don't need to. I get to get to. So that's the question. Is overworking a compulsion for you? I can't honestly. I'm too busy honestly to answer that question. I really, I mean, I feel like I am paying attention to my wife and my household first and foremost and my family and Manuka, Illinois. I mean, I think that absolutely you're hitting the nail on the head that that's my tendency. And given my druthers, I would just 24, 7, 3, 6, 6, 6, 5, be hosting beaver documentaries. And speaking of jobs you've taken, you recently did a four episode mini series on WNYC. I thought maybe you want to read this for us. I'd be happy to. Let me let me read this and then we're going to talk about Wendelberry. Okay, great. Which is all if you ever run into me at a party, I'm just going to try and get to Wendelberry as soon as I can because then I'll stay at the party.

15:58This is from 1973. A warning to my readers. Do not think me gentle because I speak in praise of gentleness or elegant because I honor the grace that keeps this world. I am a man crude as any, gross of speech, intolerant, stubborn, angry, full of fits and furies. That I may have spoken well at times is not natural. A wonder is what it is. I love that piece. I love it so much. And so the name of my series is called a wonder is what it is. Part of the conversation I love about Wendelberry is simply I was raised Catholic and my siblings and I and my mom and dad are still very commendable staunch servants of St. Mary's Church in Manuka,

17:00Illinois. And I was like the captain of the altar boys and I was the teenager who cut the grass. Like I was the church mat. I was the batboy. You were the good kid. I was on paper. And my siblings and I got it. We went to church and we went to Catechism, our Sunday school and we were like, okay, we get it. You've imparted the values you wanted to. Now I don't want to go to church anymore. It's a bummer. It's not. You're getting people together and you're not moving me. And so when I began to read Wendelberry and especially read him talk about the creation. Speaking of spirituality, he's saying I don't really go in for church because it's run by people and the things people do I don't always agree with. But when I'm in the creation, when I'm out in the woods, suddenly I can understand what is holy. And I said, now that I can get moved by that makes me gives me a holy feeling.

18:02He writes, I'm a man crude as any, gross of speech, intolerant, stubborn, angry, full of fits and theories. And I've been thinking because you've quoted that piece before. And I just keep wondering when was the last time Nick Offerman was intolerant, stubborn, or angry? I just drove here across Los Angeles. So I was all of those at least once. By the way, while listening to a Cubs game, where it wasn't going great. So I was full of fits and theories. But I mean, I've been with Wendel a bunch and this, you know, sigacious like philosopher kin to me. And he'd be the first to be like, say, I'm a grumpy old son of a bitch. Like I know these things. I've been writing these books and filling them with, you know, with this, this knowledge that he would say he is bringing forward from Aldo Leopold and other

19:04agrarian thinkers before him. As, as, by the way, also when you sit at lunch with Wendel, he will whip out a Macbeth monologue. He is, he's a man of letters. He's air you died. But also intolerant, grossest beats, stubbornness. He's still a guy, you know, trying to get his sheep into the barn. And I still, I still don't know besides the Cubs, which, you know, when do they not cause frustration in your day to day? I do want to know what bothers you. There's so much that that does that to me. I mean, injustice, misinformation, all, you know, all the skulled duggery and, and ways in which modern profiteers succeed, hand over fist at the expense of the majority of good, honest, hardworking people in our country, the people that brought me up. And, and to sort of lace a bunch of this together, I want to do a little math with you. Like,

20:06you ask me, like, what's your, how do you overindulge? And the answer is, I, I get asked, I get the opportunity to do too many delicious things. And when I first read Wendell Barry in my 20s, I, I said, this speaks to me, this is the most holy writing. Like, this is Shakespearean to me. This is the Bible to me. This is the thing you were looking for in church. Yeah. Eventually, I got in touch with him and his family, his daughter Mary runs the Barry Center now. And I'm a staunch supporter of them because I'll never be a writer or thinker like him. But I have the ability to get people to watch me do a cartwheel. And I say, by the way, here's a quick Wendell Barry poem. Did you like that cartwheel? And so that feels like a vocation or a calling to me. And as I proceed through this life, I can then come on your excellent podcast and talk about Wendell Barry. So

21:06how am I supposed to say no to that? I can tell you this. When Megan and I or my best friend Pat and I or my family and I get to talking about the in the ills of the world, the things that make us mad, which are so easy. Like when W got reelected, I was like, oh, right. There are people who don't think the same as me. Many of whom you've played in a lot of films and TV shows. For sure. And many of whom I've worked alongside and love because they're my neighbors. And I understand that that's the only thing to do. If I want to help, the only thing to do is say, I'm going until you hurt me or my family and my goods, I'm going to say, boy, I sure disagree with that. But we're working together to make this neighborhood, this county, this country safe and clean. Obviously, we're failing in many ways. But when things hurt me, I don't know. I have the ability

22:07to exhale and say, all right, let's just focus. I mean, it's again, it's all tied to that's part of maybe why I have a compulsion to make good things. So I want to talk about those good things that you referenced earlier. And we'll do that after the break. That's coming up next with Nick Conferman. As fall approaches and holiday plans begin to unfold, I've been thinking about my trip home to Chicago last year to moderate a friend's book event. This is just before Thanksgiving. So Chicago was understandably very, very cold and transforming into the winter. My whole family actually ended up attending that event, which made the whole night a lot more special. And after the show, we piled into the car, drove to the city together and got some food. And there's one moment I remember in particular where we drove past this movie theater. It's called The Music Box. And it's a place I spent a lot of my time as a teenager and childhood, but seeing it again with fresh eye, all those years later, made me feel connected to the city in a whole new way. This kind of experience gets me thinking about how places and locations provide connection points

23:11in unexpected ways. That's why when I find myself leaving home in LA for any stretch of time, I've been thinking about listing my space on Airbnb and giving someone who's visiting my area a chance to connect to my neighborhood by discovering the local spots I frequent day to day. It's a practical and smart way to make use of my space when I'm gone, rather than just letting it sit empty, plus the extra income it brings can help offset some of my own travel costs. If you got upcoming travel plans, your home could be working for you, and your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Movie is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you. Everything is hand-picked, but the emphasis on filmmakers and movies worth discovering or, in some cases, rediscovering. One film worth mentioning is Amoros Peros. The landmark debut from filmmaker Alejandro G. In Uritu is returning in a new 4K restoration. Set in Mexico City,

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26:15in some cases, rediscovering. One film worth mentioning is Amoros Peros. The landmark debut from filmmaker Alejandro G. Inu Ritsu is returning in a new 4K restoration. Its stars Gale Garcia Bernal, with cinematography from Barbie filmmaker Rodrigo Prieto. Set in Mexico City, the film begins with a fatal car crash that connects three very different lives. A story of brothers caught in a love triangle, a man who gives up everything for a beautiful model, and a hitman confronting his past. Inu Ritsu's non-linear, multi-perspective approach to storytelling was radical when the film premiered more than 25 years ago. Its influence, though, can still be seen across film and television today. To experience Amoros Peros and more of the best of cinema, you can try Mooby-free for 30 days at Mooby.com slash talk easy. That's mooby-m-u-b-i.com slash talk easy for a whole month of great cinema for free. Coming back, you might add a hat or I know you change angles for the ads,

27:19but maybe a hat or a pair of funny glasses. A prop. So that, when I'm in the gym, I'm like, because I'm hitting 30, your people don't want to hear this. So they do. When you're jumping, and you can't tell, because then when you come back, now you're asking Greta Leah a question again, but I'm like, okay, now I have to go back to make sure I don't miss. Also, the music hits are so delicious. You're bummed if you miss one. So even if you're like, clearly you're just back in, and I still gotta catch that little trumpet. So you want something to discern and distinguish between the two? That's my two cents. I think you may be on to something. Hat? I don't know if I can pull that off. What about just a little placard that says hashtag ad? I'm not sure the sponsors would love that. You're just a money sign. Workshop this. Yeah, I think it's a good idea. Take your leave.

28:19I want to talk about this tryptic of recent films that all seem to be in conversation. What another? There's origin where you play a mega hat wearing plumber, civil war, playing the president of an authoritarian federal government, and sovereign as an activist who travels from town to town to spread the gospel of anti-government. We can go in any direction from these, but as someone who comes from a farming community, with politics that probably differ from a lot of Hollywood, do these roles speak to a larger idea that you want to communicate in 2026? Is there a through line in these parts that you understand? I think my answer to that is I love working for people who think like Ava DuVernay and Alex Garland and Christian Swagel, who one of the things that's rough about this business is this is a sidebar, but my movie sovereign, which most of you haven't seen, you should see. Now I get it.

29:24When you see the trailer, it looks like an advertisement for January 6th. It looks like what was just on the news. You see the trailer and you're like, this is the subject matter. I want to watch a movie to escape from. I don't want to see what's but Christian Swagel and Nick Misery produced it. It is so beautiful. It is so moving despite my participation. This kid Jacob Tremblay from Canada plays my son and Dennis Quaid plays the chief of police and Thomas Mann plays his son. I don't like to watch things that I'm in. I do to make sure, my batting stance is up to snuff. I went and watched this thing four times in the theater. I couldn't get enough of how moving it was. The answer to your question is yes. There is something I hope to say, but I don't have the wherewithal. I'm not someone who creates movies or shows. I'm

30:28someone who serves those people. Hopefully in the service of wonderful, genius, beautiful hearts like Ava Alex and Christian. Yet the work itself, I think, completely complicates that mission statement, especially in the film Sovereign where you play the father and father to a son as the two of you are part of the Sovereign Citizens Movement, which leads the two of them to clash with courts, local police and other arms of the state that Jerry renders illegitimate and unconstitutional. Can we take a look at what that looks like for you? Let's take a look. Who all here is a birth certificate, raise your hands? Okay, now how many of you have actually looked at it? Actually read the name on the paper. It's in all caps, right? Why is that? What other names do they put in all caps? Corporations. Corporations, exactly. Because the name on the birth certificate isn't the same thing as the flesh and blood. It's a corporate name,

31:31it's a corporate fiction. It's a straw man. It's a straw man, you got it. So one each time someone says I owe them money, the first thing I ask them is who owes you? Is it the flesh and blood? Or is it the straw man? The guy with the social security number, like they talked about in the Bible, the book of Genesis, Mark of the Beast. If you say I owe you, then in my opinion, I say you already owe me. You owe me evidence of that debt. You owe me evidence of that contract. So let's say you say, okay, come on Jerry, you know that it was for those boxes of girl scout cookies that you bought from my niece. I can still ask you to prove it. Prove that I ate those cookies because every time you make a claim against me, you already owe me. At the bare minimum, you owe me an explanation. So coming back, there's an anger to that part.

32:35Sorry. Jacob Tremblay should like it is so gorgeous in this movie. There's a scene that towards the end that just I just even just thinking about it really chokes me out. But yes, there's an anger to that part. Well, we don't have to go to the anger clearly. There's something else. I mean, what you're driving at and I'm happy to talk about because I love being part of the conversation of like masculinity. When I read this script by Christian, I said, I got to do this because what I love about this is it's humanizing. It makes me look at something like January 6th. And instead of saying, what is with all these insane people? Like what the fuck is wrong with these people? Now I see how they are. They've been preyed upon by blending like, you know, I mean, Jerry is a sovereign citizen. It's a, you know, not dissimilar from like QAnon or other

33:39misinformed groups who are trying to find their way around their hardships. In the case of sovereign citizens, they're like, you know what? Your state constitution or your federal constitution are those are open to interpretation. So I don't need a driver's license and you know, all of this. The license is just an avatar. Yeah. And in order to have a functioning society, that's why libertarianism can never work. Like on paper, the ideas are great, but it's going to just lead to anarchy because everyone is then open to interpret things. And whoever has the most guns ends up winning. And that's a dumb idea. That would be a tough realization for Ron Swanson. It I suppose I suppose, but I like to think as a mic sure character that he would he would listen to reason eventually. And what's the part of the film? Part of this conversation that makes your glasses fog up. Just that when I when I read this, I said, what's so frustrating in this day and

34:49age? Are all the good people who I think really, I mean, most people are good. Most people would read Wendell Barry and get what he's talking about. But there's such a large percentage of them that are being fed bad information and propaganda and hatred that I've talked to like in my hometown. And they shake their heads and say, I know you I know your folks like I know you're good people, but your brain washed like I'm sorry to tell you, I heard it from Sean Hannity and I'm telling you your brain washed. And you're and you're like, well, what do I what do I do now? That's so crazy making and frustrating to watch, you know, the smugness with which people profit by by espousing hatred is really upsetting. And so to see something like this, read this script and say,

35:52okay, this guy is just trying his best to like raise his kid. He's trying to do a good job. He's lost his wife. He's 18 years sober, likes to gamble probably a little too much. And he's trying to make it work. He's trying desperately to make it work and quick doffing over the cap to the great Martha Plinton, who I have loved for many years. She's incredible in this as well. What you come to understand is this guy, his misdeeds are the result of him reacting to be preyed upon by lenders basically. And so much of our country is in that situation where they're under the gun, prices are not going down. Things are more expensive. The messaging is very confusing. You know, 2026 were being told science was wrong. We don't need vaccines. They're against you. The doctor

36:58you know, like all of all of the misdirection that's trying to pull our attention away from the way you're actually being robbed of your income infuriates me. And I would rather work on something or play the the plumber and avas origin. It was it was really weird to wear a mega hat for a role. It was really upsetting. I was in Savannah, Georgia. And when I would step outside between takes, I would put a cubs hat over the mega hat. Because I didn't even want to imagine somebody across the street getting a picture of me. That would be so embarrassing. I mean, and I wrote a chapter about it in my fifth book that I don't think the wears of mega hats. I said, listen, just so you understand, I can meet you at a barbecue place and we'd get along just fine. If you're wearing that hat,

38:00we think you're announcing that you're racist. Like the world thinks you're evil. Like you're announcing that you're down with the Nazis. I don't think the people wearing that hat believe the words you just said. Of course not. Of course not. And that's exactly what angers me is like, I bet you're probably a good person. But this flag you're flying, all of us that want health care for you, among others, we think that you're announcing evil intentions. It's funny. We had a fraction of this conversation last time you came on because it was around the release of Civil War. You sang, I bet you are a good person to the people who don't a mega hat. I can hear them going, who are you to determine that I'm a good person? And I think that is part of the frustration that I have seen in talking to people on the right who go, wait a minute, your system, which legitimized

39:07and sanitized Harvey Weinstein, that was deeply racist and segregated for a long, long time within Hollywood that is often preaching on high while paying men more than women, a wage gap that is not getting better, who's trying to espouse these views as if they are the moral arbiter. Sure. We have made that mistake, I think, for a long time. And I know it's not that's not what you're trying to do, but I can hear. Right. And I really appreciate that because I would hate to ever come across a sanctimonious, but that's the dipshit part where we're all going to fuck it up together. Yes. Can we accept that as the question? Right. I'm bringing this up because look at where you come from. Right. Go to that town in Illinois. Anyone who wants to Google this, go Google it. And I'm thinking about these people who've known your father, who's the mayor of this town, who like you, who grew up with you, who watched your work and now go, what the fuck

40:09happened, Nick Offerman? Yeah. What happened to brainwash, lib tart, Nick Offerman, as a cues you of eating children? And I do wonder like the kid who was in the church, in the service, who mowed lawns, who know those families, for those families to come back to you and some members of them to come back to you and say, I don't know what's happened to you. I do want to know how you process that. Well, it is tricky. I mean, it's lonely in a lot of ways because there are people from my past that that I created my sense of humor together with, you know, kids growing up with and that I wish that I'm like, man, I wish you could see this now because this is what we always talked about that I dreamed I would get to do. And I'm, you know, doing this work a few years ago, I did a

41:10Christmas movie with Eddie Murphy. And I was like, oh my god, I wish I could call my friends from junior high. I'm like, I don't know me with Eddie Murphy, but they don't like me anymore. Because they think you believe what? I don't know. I mean, that's the thing. There's such a there's such a disconnect. I'm presuming that whatever Fox News tells them, you know, quote unquote, we believe, you know, I, because I want something, something trans in there, something, you know, I want all of their kids to turn gay. Whatever I don't even, you know, it's so dismissable and weirdly ridiculous. It's hard to stomach or it's hard to count. But that is why that's what I mean when I say I don't have a great overarching. I also don't, I don't have the vision, you know,

42:10I wish I was de Kenzie and I could just write these incredible stories that and people put the book down and say, I guess, I guess I should be decent to everybody. Then we always we could be George Sanders a little bit. I suppose. Yeah. I mean, but that's what I love about George and Jeff Tweety of the band Wilcoe. We have our three way bromance. It's what we talk about together. Is this is like, how can we, you know, engender empathy in this frustrating world? We are, we're all the guy in that home or awful with fits and furries. We share our frustrations quite often on this level. But we also, you know, the thing that binds us to each other is the way in which we're inspired by one another to fill our work with, you know, with that sensibility. Hmm. That sensibility is embedded in that beautiful performance of yours in the last of us.

43:12And then bring it back to this masculinity conversation. Ben Shapiro has gone on the record to talk in interesting terms about you and your work in that show. And I suspect there are people back home who saw this clip. And so I want our viewers to see it as well. This is Ben Shapiro. So the entire plot of the episode is that Ron Swanson, Nick Alferman, but he actually plays Ron Swanson, but Ron Swanson who likes to nail dudes. So Ron Swanson, a libertarian who hates the government and lives in his basement and is a prepper, but also his gay. Ron Swanson during the zombie apocalypse, he's having himself a grand old time for some reason his town is completely not hit by any of the zombies at all. It's like completely left alone. And so he goes out and gets all his resources and then he builds a nice fence around his place and he sets up all these booby traps. So if anybody shows up with their raiders whether zombies they're going to get killed. And then somehow another dude ends up like falling into one of his traps and they meet and they bang and

44:13they end up becoming a couple. Okay, so you can see it here, right? There's gay Ron Swanson. And it's complete with like sex scenes and the whole thing. And the entire episode has no zombies, no real threat. And it is about two gay dudes who meet and have a relationship in which one grows strawberries for the other. And then they die. But not being killed by zombies or under threat. One dies, he gets cancer and he decides to essentially euthanasia himself. And gay Ron Swanson decides that he is also going to commit suicide at the same time because Romeo and Juliet or Romeo and Romeo in this particular case. Holy shit. First of all, was it necessary to do that at 1.5 times speed? I mean, that poor guy. That's crazy. That's the most venture pure I've ever seen.

45:22And there's a very good reason for that. I mean, I don't know what to say. I'm embarrassed for his reading comprehension. He got, I think he got eight things wrong in his recap. Besides his, his rampant homophobia. But why don't you go? I don't spend a ton of time with Ben Shapiro. That was insane. I mean, you seem completely in shock watching that. I had read that somewhere. Like I read what Ben Shapiro said. gay Ron Swanson. Then I wrote a song that I was performing on tour. And I would preface it by saying, I was going to write a joke about this. But Ben Shapiro questioned my masculinity. And I can't write a better joke than that.

46:22Like I just don't know, you know, I don't know what to, that is so powerful. That's like a Joe Rogan clip or something that's just so dumb and so wrong. But then it's really upsetting to understand how powerful that probably is and how many people... It's reached. It's reached and it would be an agreement with it. And they'd be like, oh no, not Ron Swanson or whatever agreement they would have. And so what do you make of that? I think the key to this goes back to your initial question. The key to my disposition is I don't. You don't make of it. I don't. I can't. All I can do instead of trying to answer it. That's the thing. As I think the billionaires, I think Elon wants us, wants me to go on social media and snark back at all of them. And then suddenly I'm 90 and I haven't read any Wendell Berry poem

47:23on the radio. And yet the amount of people taking that in. Yeah. I guess like I'm trying to think in those moments when you are frustrated. Like what upsets you more that A, he questioned your masculinity or B, the right has claimed that you are part of the liberal elite that sometimes eats children. I mean, this is where we're at in 2026. Sure. I mean. And by the way, how have you stayed out of jail this long? I know. I know. I haven't actually. That's the answer. That's why it's been two years since you came on last. I don't know what I can do or say. Let's say there are 500 million people that that are like love Tucker Carlson and Ben Shapiro and they're like, agree with this and and eat this hand over fist. I don't know what I can do or say. That's not going to invite their their ranker and then be like, of course, that's what you would

48:25say, gay Ron Swanson or whatever. And so I do my very best to I completely don't engage anymore with any of that. And instead just take a deep. I mean, I don't know what to do with that. It's he might as it might as well be Gerbos. I mean, it might as well be David Duke on the pulpit or or any any purveyor of hatred. And yet that character that you played in sovereign on the pulpit ranting, tons of hatred, tons of frustration, the fact that you can still get there. Of course, within the confines of a film, right. It's not like you don't understand it. I understand it fully. That's that's the thing that's what Wendell's poem is about. Don't think I'm above that. We're all that one way or another. My the reason I maintain my disposition is I completely,

49:27I'm aware of that. I'm I maintain an awareness of what they're saying. And then I just keep making my stuff. My last book, Little Wood Shucks is an anti AI. It's a book to teach your little wood shucks to make things with tools. It's encouraging us all not to let our apps run our lives or robots, but look each other in the eye and live as humans and make things for ourselves. And that's the whole point of living. Like otherwise, what are we doing here? Well, after the break, why don't we talk about the things that make life worth living? And we'll do that after a couple ads without a hat, though. That's coming up next when Nick offerman. I think most of us could give a pretty good estimate of what we spend in a month. At least I thought I could before monarch. Here's the thing. There's a difference between having a general sense of your finances and actually seeing everything laid out in front of you. What you're spending, what you're saving. And of course, how those

50:30numbers are changing over time. That's one of the things I've most appreciated about monarch. Monarch brings my accounts, investments, saving goals, and spending together in one place. And increasingly, I use it to look ahead. If I'm planning a trip or considering a larger purchase, I can map out the cost and see how it fits into my goals before I actually spend the money. I also like monarchs weekly recap. The flags changes I might otherwise miss, like spending increase or not coming expense. That requiring me to constantly check everything myself. Over time, that's changed my relationship with my money and spending and saving. I'm not just looking at what I already spent. I'm using that information to make better decisions about what comes next. Write your own money story with monarch. Use code talkeasy at monarch.com to get your first year of monarch or half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com was code talkeasy. I've learned from making this show that the more moving parts you can put in one place, the better. Because once your work starts requiring

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52:42I'm sorry to make you good. God. That was that was that was quite a that was quite an interesting journey. It's quite something. And I mean, what I've long since learned is to not be activated by it. Like to let it go by and analyze it as best I can. And I just want to say I don't want to presume that the entire world has seen the episode we're talking about. But it was with all due respect to Craig Mason who wrote it and Peter Hore who directed it and Murray Bartlett who was my partner in it. It was quite celebrated as like regardless of my own participation in it, it was celebrated as like an incredibly effective piece of storytelling. Like the greatest dot dot dot it was lauded with superlatives. Exin and exactly the opposite way of his reaction. Like it's

53:42and you also want an Emmy. So that should be it's true. I'm incredibly grateful because I they needed a guy who could use a shovel. And there are only three of us in Hollywood Harrison Ford passed and Jane Lynch was not available. And so it was very lucky that that job fell to me. But I just I mean, just to add that context of like the thing that he's talking about is like an incredibly agreed upon beautiful piece of storytelling. Like it's unquestionably one of the greatest love stories of the year if not more. You know, I was thinking about Shapiro's comment about masculinity and the bathroom. Go on. It's a setup of a good joke. But it made me think of all the straight men in the world. You're one of the few public figures that I think people would be happy

54:49if you procreated. Has that ever been something you're interested in? Sure. I mean, you know, it never occurred to me. My degree of masculinity never occurred to me until Parks and Rec hit and people among others began to talk about me in among other things with regard to my masculinity and my virility and you know, and suddenly I was, you know, a symbol of of machismo, of a certain stripe. And so I'm glad to be, you know, a guy who can split wood and change a truck tire and also can do that episode of the last of us and understand that it's all just good work. And did you want to pass that down to children? Well, I come from a wonderful big family. I always figured I would would continue that tradition. But it simply wasn't in the cards. Megan was 40 when we met. And we kind of dabbled in it for a couple of years and then

55:53kind of made the decision to remain our own children and to keep ourselves free to like travel the world as it were. And you know, I have a lot of other children in my life that I greatly enjoy. And you know, it's it's the kind of thing that I am happy. I'm very happy with my journey. And so it doesn't occur to me much. You don't have any regrets about not having kids. I don't. I mean, it's funny. Part of my disposition thing is I don't have any great ambition. That's bullshit. It's not bullshit. I'd never have like, are you kidding me? How could you sit here and say that would a straight face when you've just accepted the role of narrator in the beaver documentary? I mean, but I think I understand that great things like that can come to me. I think only because I don't strive for them.

56:57I don't even like when I wanted to become an actor, I just there's a famous, I'm sure I've mentioned this before to you. There's a famous video from my childhood when I was maybe like 11 at a fishing cabin when it was on like a super eight camera. And it's everyone's diving to get out of the shot. And then it lands on me. And I'm pointing to myself and sticking my tongue out. I'm like, you got you want showbiz right here, motherfucker. Like I just had it in me where I was like and even and that's what I did for my college audition was just point it myself and stick my tongue out. It was like get a load of this guy. But I mean, that was my ambition was like I want to do that. I want to move people the way I've been moved by taxi or the Carol Burnett show or Jackie Gleason. I don't have I don't want to be a Jedi. I'd like I'd love to play a wizard some day. I love to play a pirate. But like I'm I have so far surpassed any dream I had for myself

58:01that I just try and mine my manners and like maintain my values. And and then this David E. Kelly show calls or Mike McCalsky calls with death by lightning like. And so that's it. I'm like, okay, great. This I'm going to do my best on this. And then maybe somebody will want me for another one. But the ambition that came from being a ham. I mean, I think it was actualized in parks and recreation in particular where people first really discovered you. Yeah. Like when you think of Ron Swanson, it's in the the Canon in the spirit of those shows that you mentioned the the Jackie Gleason, the Carol Burnett, you know, it is part of TV history. What is Ron Swanson in parks and recreation mean to you in 2026? Well, that's a big question. It was it was life changing like I my nose, my gut, my my organic like to just sort of following my nose and my life. I became a

59:06talented carpenter just because I wasn't a good actor yet. And I had to make a living and I wanted to be in the theater. And that turned into woodworking. And then in the theater habit in loss. I moved to LA and I met Megan 26 years ago. We've been together. It's married 23. And I mean, all of these things coalesced in a way that I never was part of any plan. I just was like, okay, here's how I can make money while I can still audition. And now I'm now I've moved in with Megan Malali, who's about to win her first Emmy for Karen Walker. Speaking of the pantheon of great TV legends. And like I couldn't believe my my life was so crazy. Then it's like I can't believe my life. I'm married to Megan Malali. I have a wood shop. I was just on Deadwood or I was just on the West Wing like for a whole week. This is insane. This is far beyond my wildest dreams. And that's sincere. But I still

1:00:10and then there's still little inklings of of like, but I might I might get to contribute more. So when Parks and Rec happened sort of everything had been leading up to Mike, Sherry and Greg Daniels and the world saying, okay, it's time you've arrived. Like your life actually starts now. And it really feels like that. So it was a gateway to a full realization where Mike and his writers taught me how valuable I was. And everything that they taught me about collaboration and about just the decency at the workplace, they shattered so many misconceptions about showbiz about the dark side of showbiz. Like what Mike sure and his producer Morgan Sackett, who's still a bestie friend of mine and Amy and all all that group. What what they taught me was the opposite of what you're saying about Hollywood, Harvey Weinstein and all that.

1:01:16There's also a very good side to that where it's we can use our powers for good to make a show like Parks and Rec. That's as funny as anything you've seen, but also has a wonderful message that's really moving and optimistic and liberal and progressive. And at the tail end of that run, season seven, Leslie and Ron. As the show's come into a close, their lives have diverged, they moved in different places. And I want to sit with a scene between you and Amy Pauller. Shit. Ah boy. You were going to ask me something. That's why you wanted to have lunch. Ron, you were going. I was going to ask you for a job. In the federal government, just saying an out loud feels dirty. You missed your friends and you wanted to come up to the third floor and work with us again.

1:02:19I can't even imagine how hard that must have been for you. God, why didn't I see that? Ron, I'm so sorry. I should have been a better friend to you. Honestly, Leslie, it's fine. It was a punctuation mark on a sentence that had already been written. My time in government work was over. I'm sure I love shutting things down and bleeding the rotting beast from the inside. Your metaphors are so beautiful. But it was time for me to leave. And I didn't feel like explaining why to you or anyone. Everything that happened after the fight we had not given you a heads up when my company took on the Morningstar development and bulldozed the nurse's old house. I do regret that. I had a good run here. But after you and Tom and Donna and April and Terry left, when I looked around this office, nothing was the same. I'm unmoved.

1:03:25But it is dusty in this Michelle Obama studio. That's all I ever wanted to do. It's weird because I don't ever watch things again. So I haven't seen Parks and Rec again since it aired. That episode was such a gift to me and Amy. It was like a one-act play for the two of us. And it was so the thing, the vulnerability that Ron showed in that storyline was really moving to me. And the, you know, Mike and his writers were so good at making you feel things for these ridiculous comedy characters. But I mean, that's watching that mainly just made me grateful. Like all I ever wanted to do was be part of the tradition, like a Wendell Berry short story or

1:04:34an episode of MASH where you laugh. And then ultimately, you know, somebody does something nice and you're like, I get it. I don't think I had seen that episode since it came out in 2015. And there's something about it beyond, beyond the two of you being as great as you are. And also beyond the fact that I just miss watching the show. There's something about that show that represented, frankly, an Obama era like decency or at least an attempt at decency. Like these people who worked in Parks and Rec were imperfect, flawed, dumb, silly, moronic, beautiful people that were part of an imperfect system but tried at least to, Leslie Nopes certainly tried to make it a little bit better. And now watching it with you in this

1:05:35moment, but a decade removed. The idea of good bureaucracy feels as like far fetched as millennial home ownership. And there's just a sadness to it that, and almost plays like an allergy. I mean, it's funny. When we were making the show, every year we almost got canceled. It was not a hit show crazily. We weren't nominated for awards. We were critically beloved, but every year a modern family, which was a great, very successful comedy, they would have like four or five guys nominated in my category of supporting actor for real. And we were like, man, like crap, Adam Scott, Aziz, like nobody was better than the kid on modern family with all due respect.

1:06:41I don't know, I don't know that show. And I'm sure the kid is fantastic. But like we just were like and people would, I would get interviewed every year about being snubbed. That was every year of my thing. And they'd be like, how does it feel to be snubbed once again by the awards? And how did it feel, Nick? I would tell you what I told them, which was I would so much rather, I mean, you could just feel it. I'm Ron Swanson. Like you can give anybody a trophy for anything they want. I've got the best part of my lifetime. Like no one's, I would rather be snubbed as Ron Swanson than win an entire island for some other show. And because I could feel what came to be true, which is the lasting medicinal quality of that show. And how that's the thing, what you said that everyone feels that they're in that people still are watching that show

1:07:44to try and glean and ring a sense of decency and optimism out of getting along with people we disagree with. The question is, was it full hearty to believe that that decency was real and alive and true? Sure, I think it always is full hearty to look to our better angels, to expect us to be good and not bloodthirsty bombing secretaries of war. At the moment, if you look at the scoreboard, we're not the nice people are not winning. But by God, I will always think that they will in the end. Do you believe that? I have to. I mean, otherwise, I'll go on a killing spree. And so instead, I make things to try and help engender, to try and be on the side of, as Jeff Tweedie says,

1:08:50just try and make things rather than destroy things. If you can finish your day, having offered more flowers than you've stepped on, that's a good goal. This entire episode, I feel like we've been saying something, then complicating the truth that we just professed. And I feel like there's only one way to end this episode, after the note of Optimism you just offered, which is a poem by Wendell Berry called Questionnaire. I believe you read it recently, but I want you to try to read it again here on the show. With pleasure. I mean, gladly. No, you'll see. Questionnaire by Wendell Berry. 1. How much poison are you willing to eat for the success of the free market and global trade? Please name your preferred poisons. 2. For the sake of goodness, how much evil are you willing to do?

1:09:58Fill in the following blanks with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred. 2. What sacrifices are you prepared to make for culture and civilization? Please list the monuments, shrines, and works of art you would most willingly destroy. 4. For the sake of goodness, how much evil are you willing to do? Fill in the following blanks with the names of your favorite evils and acts of hatred. 3. What sacrifices are you prepared to make for culture and civilization? Willingly destroy. 4. In the name of patriotism and the flag, how much of our beloved land are you willing to desecrate? List in the following spaces, the mountains, rivers, towns, farms, you could most readily do without. 5. State briefly the ideals or hopes, the energy sources, the kinds of security for which you would kill a child.

1:11:05Name please the children whom you would be willing to kill. What was the ultimate title of that poem again? The end of the earth. This kind of always, the oxymoronic nature of our nation, of human society, it always comes with, well, gay marriage is legal. But there's always a but and the but is always brutal. The reality is always brutal. To maintain the industrial military complex, to maintain our fossil fuel dependent civilization, has brutal reality to it. And so I greatly appreciate Wendell's clear identification of that because it hurts.

1:12:07It's painful. It's a painful truth. And it allows me to say, we've got a long way to go. And for me and for him, I think we would argue it all comes down to our relationship with nature, which is most closely related to our food. Like he says eating is an agricultural act. Everyone engages with farmers every day when they eat, whether they like to admit it or not. And it's important to care about them first and foremost. Every locality should care about its ability to produce food. And take care of the people that are doing that for us. Once the last time any of us had a meal and said thank you to the people where it came from. Your journey with Wendell Berry began I think in your early 20s, right? mid 20s. When I was handed two books of his short stories.

1:13:07And I remember this part from the first time you came on the show, you said quote, when I was looking for my place in the world of storytelling and entertainment, someone dropped these Wendell Berry stories on me. And it was just a huge epiphany about how the world I was trying to fit into was actually selling a bill of goods to the rural world from which I came. We've been circling this bill of goods and the anger that's fermented. Some of which has been directed at you. Some of which has been demonstrated and exhibited and carried out in the ballot box. And in this moment in 2026, I guess I want to sit with how you understand that bill of goods. Well, it's a big question. It brings to mind Leonard Cohen's wonderful lyric, the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor. Because I'm very aware that I am wealthy and on those channels.

1:14:10And also infuriated by those channels at the moment, at the moment, I have to subscribe to five fucking channels to watch the Cubs. If I want to see every Cubs game, I need to subscribe to at least three or four channels. The fuck like I just think about my grandpa on his tractor listening to the Cubs on his radio. And when I go to the Dodgers games and it took I got I got their half an hour before the game two blocks away on Caesar Chavez. I got their half an hour before the game. I was supposed to go on the air for Apple TV to promote Margot's got money troubles. I got to my seat with Megan in the middle of the fourth inning because it was so poorly run. And I just looked around thinking Megan and I did a great job of like keeping our cool. We were like, let's just laugh and have fun. How stupid this is. But I'm looking around at all these families, these working class families. Going to the Dodgers game, what are they spending 200 bucks to take their kids to the ballgame and buy them a hot dog, you know.

1:15:18And they and they're sitting in traffic because it's so poorly orchestrated and run. And and then if I want to watch the game, I can't even I pay MLB the app 150 bucks and there are like three nights. They don't give me the fucking game. I love you. You've taken my big 30,000 foot question and reduced it down to MLB packet size. The fact that I'm sorry you tapped into the true source of my rage while being part of the machine. I am a cog in the machine of entertainment and channels. I also am one of the consumers shaking my fist at like where why do I have to work so hard to find a good eggs. And the answer is I go to the farmers market. I continue to do research, but it's it's very hard and that makes me mad.

1:16:22Americans should at least have access to fresh fresh locally sourced eggs. I'm a man as crude as any. Groves of speech intolerance stubborn angry full of fits and furies that I may have spoken well at times is not natural. A wonder is what it is. That's right. Nick Offerman, thank you for all the time as always. Do we cover everything? I'm still naive enough to write my book or do my movie or do talk easy and I'm like and it still didn't fix everything. Did you guys hear what we were talking about? And so Wendell will he said in his wife, Tonya, who's so great. They laugh and say, I'm writing the same book for for 60 years. I just keep writing the same thing and he's kind of wrapping it up.

1:17:23And but he says, you know, it didn't work. I don't like well, we'll keep telling him. I really appreciate how much faith you have in this show. That's very nice of you. I mean, yeah, if listen, if this doesn't, if this doesn't do it, let's see how the elections go this fall. Okay. But if I need to, I'll come back. Yeah, my number will do it again. Nick Offerman, thank you, sir. Thank you, Simon.

1:18:30I'm Dan Heath on what it's like to be. I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together. We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats. I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there? There were 32,000 pounds of them. 32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats. How about that, sir? I'll speak to rats. Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couple therapists or an FBI agent, all on the podcast what it's like to be.