Just Tell Them the Truth

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Alright friends, great coquel here and stand a reason and that's the show it on the

host and thank you for being part of what we're doing.

We're doing a whole lot more than this.

I always say that part of what we're doing but I never really clarify.

Stand a reason does so much more and many of you who listen know about that.

One thing that I want to underscore that I don't mention enough but it's in a little

commercial clip that we play once in a while and I know it's easy to tune commercials

out but I think the way I started is if you like this show you're going to really love

hashtag STR ask and the reason that you're going to love that is if you like this show

you got me but in hashtag STR ask you got me and Amy Hall and that changes everything

frankly.

I love doing that show with her.

I learned so much from her even though she said I agree with everything you said.

Often times and then she adds a whole bunch more and I think oh my goodness I'm getting

schooled here.

Alright but she's fabulous and we'd both love you to listen to both of the shows.

That's just one more thing.

That's only three times or two times about 25 minutes each.

So in alternating days we have not only this show and our each but we have roughly half

hour of Amy and I and hashtag STR ask so then a whole bunch of other things.

Tim Barnett has got red pen logic RP I'll just go to if you'd never heard of it just take

my word for it check it out it's going to take you 15 minutes no it's going to take

you about eight minutes to watch one episode and you'll be hooked.

Just go to YouTube type in red pen logic and there you go.

You can also go to our website at str.org and you find it at the bottom and all our links

for all our social media etc but and we have speakers that are going all over the country

sometimes outside of the country too we have our realities six of them a year that are

selling out like crazy in fact Philly next weekend this weekend and tomorrow night I'm

getting on the plane actually to head out to Philly on the red eye and that's been sold

out for a month and we've got LA coming up April 24th and 25th it's not sold out we've

got a thousand tickets already sold five weeks in advance now first time we're going to

be a downy chapel a cavalry chapel downy and I mean we're going to we're going to have

2500 to 3000 by the time April 24th and 25th comes around and all I'm doing is

underscoring all kinds of things that we're doing at STR all right when I say this is

you know thank you thank you being part of this and what we're doing there's so much more

and many of you are part of that I'm glad but I'm just laying it out we've I've talked a lot about

outposts in the past we got 177 of these right now in 40 different states in 12 different

countries these are these are kind of I used to think of them when I first had this idea 30 years

ago like Mac user groups you know you get people of kindred spirit in the area of apologetics

who like standard reason want to learn more about it or just want to learn how to thoughtfully

graciously and intelligibly communicate their convictions and well they can get together local

groups in the local church be led by a leader we have a goal this year by the way of having a

standard reason outpost in every state of the union and I mentioned we have 40 but we're

still missing some states so I'm going to let you know what they are Alaska Connecticut

Hawaii by the way that's extremes Alaska and Hawaii right the hot and the cold we don't have

people in those in those states with with currently doing an outpost Massachusetts well that makes

sense there are Christians in message Mississippi North Dakota road island Vermont Wyoming

really North Dakota and Wyoming I would think that that would be a prime stopping ground for

believers anyway those are states who are missing if you want to be an outpost director

if you're thinking about it just go to our website str.org and let me see the URL here no more details

well somewhere on str.org you will find something about outpost and there's a whole description

there in fact there's a map of all the outposts in the world 177 of them now and you can find if

there's one within striking distance of you or you can think about starting your own especially if

you're in Alaska Connecticut Hawaii Kansas Massachusetts Mississippi North Dakota road island Vermont

or Wyoming look to have you on board now I mentioned just a few months ago about about people

learning how to engage challengers in the culture as good ambassadors for Christ and being effective

in doing so and and I mentioned ambassador because this is what our organization is all about

we are not just communicating information we're glad to do that we're glad for other

organizations that do it as well but we are trying to build a certain type of person

we call that person an ambassador from 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 verse 20 Paul says there we

are ambassadors for Christ as though God we're speaking through us we beg of you on behalf of Christ

to be Rukka's held to God so our whole approach is an approach of geneal diplomacy we want our

engagements with other people to look more like diplomacy than detail and the the model I mentioned

ambassador model that entails developing capabilities in three areas knowledge gotta know something

if you can be an ambassador you gotta know whatever the sovereign wants to communicate wisdom

that is a ability to engage in a thoughtful wise maybe shrewd way and character in other words you

do not want your character the way you are as a human being to undermine the message that

your sovereign is sending you out to communicate so it's the end of reason we characterize this as

knowledge is an accurately informed mind wisdom is an artful method and character is an attractive

manner now we are we have it as a goal obviously to build those kinds of people and it's very satisfying to

see more and more individuals that God is raising up not all guys like me but I mean a whole new

generation of people that are taking up the charge the challenge as ambassadors for Christ with

those kinds of characteristics not just people know a lot it's it's easy to learn stuff

and that's really important but the way one engages the manner in which he or she does that

with maneuvering in conversation in a diplomatic way and being gracious and attractive

in the process that's absolutely critical Paul says make that well Paul says in 2nd Timothy says

the Lord's bond servant is not to be quarrelsome but patient went wrong okay Peter writes in the passage

where he joins us to defend the faith to defend the hope that's within us he says 2nd Peter chapter

3 says to do it with gentleness and reverence so this is a big part of the package the way we

go about it now this is all a lead up to encourage you to watch the segment online of the diary of a

CEO which I was a guest on in September with not only the host Stephen Bartlett but also two others

including well one we told called drk because I can't pronounce his last name but that's what we

called him on the show and also Alex O'Connor the atheist I had five and a half hours five and a

quarter hours of film work that got winnowed down to three hours and 20 what six minutes or whatever

and I have an opportunity to do my best in that environment but recently I think maybe just in the

last couple days another edition of dewec diary of a CEO is released and the guest was Wesley Huff

now if you've been paying attention for the last year at all in the area of a kind of

YouTube Christian apologetics you can't miss west off because it was about a year ago that he was on

Joe Rogan show and acquitted himself magnificently he is very close to getting his PhD

in in disciplines that relate to ancient Near Eastern studies and ancient Near Eastern documents

and classical culture and everything that isn't the specific thing actually he's he's majoring in

spaces between letters what I talked to him about the details of it I said well you you're studying

nothing but in his you know very refined analysis of ancient manuscripts and the spaces between

letters that mean something he has amassed an unbelievable amount of knowledge he is really fun

and since Rogan he's been everywhere of making the case for Christ and I mentioned the preliminary

information about ambassadors for Christ precisely because uh Wesley Huff is such a good example

of an ambassador for Christ the kind of people we want all Christian witnesses to be like

with the knowledge and he's got that in spades and also tactical wisdom he maneuver so well

but he's so gracious knowledge wisdom character his his his manner is he's unflappable

and some people are unflappable because they're so courageous that you're not going to scare them

come on get me what you got kind of I can deal with you and they're unflappable in that sense but

that's not the unflappable manner that I'm talking about with west west is just very calm

very relaxed and answers what he can answer and what he can't answer he just I don't know I don't

deal with that but he exemplifies something that um Amy was just talking about this morning and

actually it's a principle that we got from Dennis Prager and Dennis would say this over and over

on his own show he would say with people who disagreed with him and there are many who called

who did on a number of issues some spiritual some policy wise political whatever but he would say

look at let's just focus on clarity not agreement clarity not agreement you know when you take

this approach clarity not agreement you take a lot of the bad energy out of a conversation

so it isn't so much that you are trying to persuade someone you're just trying to help both sides

be very clear about what's at stake and what the different points of view happen to be so people

with a clear take on them can compare them I find that for myself in a lot of circumstances

I'm asking the question what do you mean by that which is the very first

tactical question for the game plan the Colombo tactic what do you mean by that or some variation

it's just to get clarity there's too much ambiguity in certain aspects of this conversation so

let's be clear and in just a little bit I'm going to talk about some responses to the broadcast

of Dewak that Wes Huff was a guest on for about two and a half hours or so and what was so

nice for him and I'm going happy for for Wes is that he didn't have any competition

there wasn't four people there was mono-amano as man-to-man it was it was Wes and Stephen Bartlett

and Stephen has wide interests he has a massive following he's got what 12 million subscribers

and he has a wide variety of interests but he has shown a real interest in

ultimate issues recently which is why what we talked about in September whether life has meaning

or not and this I actually don't know what the I haven't seen this episode with Wes and Stephen

on Dewak that just came out but people are talking about it I've seen little clips of it and I'm

going to play a clip for of it in just a moment but I have I'm planning to listen to it on the

way back I just got on the way back to the to home I got a two and a half hour drive or two hour

drive whatever it is on the way back from the office and the studio and so I'll listen but I've

just caught portions of it I first was alerted to it this morning Amy's watched most of it

and I just knowing Wes and what he's done on so many other venues with podcasters that he's

such a great example about how to I'm trying to think of the best word here it's not posturing

because that's it not he's not positioning himself that I mean that that's happening in some

sense but that's not what I'm after it's just the way he is just a nice guy who knows a bit

and does his best to answer the questions clearly and is not rattled by the opposition and challenges

and whether or not his message is appealing I mentioned this last week I think I said the important

thing about giving a message giving a response is not giving a satisfying response because a lot

of the the proper responses to challenges to Christianity are not going to be satisfying to people

emotionally usually they don't like what they're going to hear the important thing is not giving

them a satisfying response but giving them a sound response a proper clear accurate truthful response

so we're going to play a clip here from the show with Weshoff and Stephen Bartlett and it's just

about a minute long here and you'll hear Stephen Bartlett start out with a common question slash

challenge that is offered to Christians in light of the Christian claim which is Jesus claim

about being the only way of salvation so let's hear what Stephen Bartlett has to say and listen

how Weshoff responds if I don't believe in Jesus yeah I don't believe in the Bible but I live a

good life and I don't believe in God am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures

if you're living your life rejecting God God is not going to force you into his presence

so I'm not going to go into heaven I'm not going to go to heaven then no where am I going to go

well you would you would go to hell out to darkness where that will be weeping and mashing of teeth yes

this is not a place I want to go no Stephen Bartlett I desire you to have a personal relationship with

your creator because I don't want you to experience whatever hell it the urgency of the Christian

message is the bad news is really bad and that's what makes the good news so good

Jesus has taken on that hell on your behalf so there's a couple of things I want to draw your

attention to about that short interaction and like I said I think the interview is over two

hours long so there's a lot there to ponder and like I said I hadn't seen it yet but if this was

like any other session that Wes has had over the last year and he's had a lot of him in light of

the launch that he had with the Rogan experience then I think you're going to see a very deaf

characterization of the truth of the gospel in the face of someone who's asking on his questions

now what's nice about DOAC is characteristically it's not a combative environment I'm chuckling

because it was a little bit combative when I was on not coming from me but Alex O'Connor was really

trying to hold my feet to the fire on a number of issues and so that that was more

challenging but characteristically it's more having a discussion and this is the way this was

here's what I want you to notice among other things about Wes Wes told the truth

Wes just simply told the truth you know that a lot of people in any without he wasn't trying to

sanitize it at all it wasn't a but but but you know kind of thing uh uh uh this and that he just

he just said so where am I going to go what you're going to hell out of darkness where there will be

where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth yes now he he offered a qualification and I'm

going to suggest a way that you might want to position yourself if you get asked that question

in the future but I thought Wes was wonderful in that he wasn't being um apologetic at all he

wasn't sanitizing trying to soften it at all he was telling the truth think of a doctor who looks

carefully in a patient and sees the disease ravaging his body and the doctor says if you don't get

help today you will be dead in a month full stop long pause sink in when you're dealing with

information of that kind of gravity you don't mess around you don't mince words you just tell them

the truth that's exactly what Wes did and you could tell by the you know kind of pregnant pause

out this is not a place I want to go Steven says I get that and Wes obviously didn't

want Steven to go there either and and that's what that segment ended with okay um but

I want to I want to look at the opening line though uh and I'll just I'll just repeat it here

because a lot of times when these kinds of issues come up in conversations with other people

people just get it wrong that is they don't understand how it fits together

and notice how Steven started his question if I don't believe in Jesus

and I don't believe in the Bible but I live a good life and I don't believe in God

am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures now there's a lot there

but I think a lot of people would just say an unqualified yes and this is where um

it Wes talked about if you're living your life rejecting God there's going to be consequences okay

but I want to look at some of these words here and the phraseology all right he says but I live a good

life that's part of it right well look at if you're if you are living a genuinely good life

if you are actually good then you don't need to save your Jesus and I came to call sinners to

repentance not to save the healthy but the sick okay so if you're not a sinner then there's

nothing to worry about if you're not sick spiritually you don't need a spiritual doctor all right if

you live a good life not to begin right when one of the spiritual leaders or I should say

religious leaders of Israel came to Jesus he addressed Jesus as good teacher and Jesus stopped

him right away he says why do you call me good no one is good but God alone now it's a very important

concept here that is easy to miss because people want to they consider themselves

basically good well I'm a good person and by our standards I spend some time with Steven Bartlett

for that show I actually don't know him other than that acquaintance for five hours

while the cameras are running in September but I have no reason to think that he's some

bastardly individual he's probably as good and nice as the next person or the best of the next

people I have no concern about that but that misses the point no one is good because I'm alone

he might be as good as the next person he might be better than me or you but the question isn't

is the standard people say well I'm no Hitler good one was enough

about you know Jesus of Nazareth either and you're probably more like Hitler than you are like

Jesus so the reference game isn't me compared to others and I'm basically good in that the

reference is to the standard of perfection which is always the standard when you're talking about

law you don't get to break some laws as long as you keep the others you know it's like 50-50 I

I kept more than I that's not going to work it isn't the way law works now well so that's if I

live a good life qualify that and I don't believe in the Bible it doesn't matter whether you believe

in the Bible it's not relevant to this question of salvation I mean there were lots of people who

didn't believe in the Bible in the first century who became Christians and became part of God's

family and under the forgiveness that God provides that knew nothing about the Bible they were Gentiles

they didn't have the Old Testament the New Testament wasn't written yet this is not related to

believing in the Bible so you're not no one is faulted because they didn't believe in the Bible

okay so what I'm trying to do is clarify some of these pieces of this question and and remove

the the stuff that's not relevant to the bigger issue how about this one if I don't believe in

Jesus well this is where a lot of Christians will call make a gold line stand but there's

clarification that needs to be made here because when you say I don't believe in Jesus there's a lot

of people who get just missed the point it is not believing that makes the difference as if

well if you only had the right beliefs you believe in God you believe in Jesus you believe the

Bible you have all these right beliefs then you would qualify for going to heaven it's not the

way it works you could believe the doctor is the best surgeon in the world the best oncologist

in the world can really heal anybody he works on and you're the guy with cancer but if you believe

that it doesn't heal your cancer you've got to put yourself in his hands

to use his skill to rescue you from the thing that's killing you and so when we say believe in

Jesus we're not just saying have this belief that we're saying put your trust in

if I don't put my trust in Jesus to do something for me that I can't do for myself then

I'm going to be lost and the answer to that is yes but as it stands right now if I don't believe in

Jesus am I going to hell the I don't believe in Jesus stuff is too ambiguous it's too easy to

misunderstand and people misunderstand it all the time so here's what my response if I'm

asked this question I'm just going to suggest this to you because you you're bound to be in a

circumstance where you'll need to do this with someone if you're open about your convictions

and people begin challenging them are you saying and when I was on many years ago now on TV

national TV with Deepak Chopra the number one new age guru in the world at that time it sold 20

million books and he laid the same thing on me it was as if if you don't if I don't believe like

you believe then I'm going to hell it was almost sounded like your wish you're willing me into

hell because I disagree with you of course this isn't the point and this is why I think the

medical metaphor is useful you are dying and guess what you know it most people do guilt they

experience guilt why probably because they feel guilty because they are guilty how about that

so there's an existential awareness of a problem that people have even when we were together

there in September with Dr. Kay and Alex O'Connor and and and Stephen Bartlett we were talking

about meaning and purpose I said look at we wouldn't be talking about this if deep down inside we

didn't have a strong suspicion there was meaning and purpose in the world that we needed to discover

we wouldn't be yearning for what didn't exist this is an appeal to C. S. Lewis's argument

from desire but in any event we the fact that we're talking about this is evidence that there

is something to find okay so we're on this quest right and what I would do in making this response

and this is the way I give an alter call when I'm asked to do it and I don't do a standard kind of

you know believe Jesus Lord and Savior raise your hand I see that hand come forward whatever I

just don't do any of that stuff I I don't think oh what's the best way to put this obviously

God uses it I'm not dissing it at all but I think there's a better way to do it that avoids a lot

of the language that people may not completely understand the significance of so believing Jesus

Lord and Savior to a lot of people sounds like religious noise sorry if you've been around church

for a long time you kind of get what that means but I think there's a better way to do it if I'm

asked to do this and this is what I did last season our series of realities where I close the sessions

I said look among other things as as I'm giving a challenge to the believers I'm speaking to the

non-believers a lot of you people came here and you're maybe somebody dragged you here maybe

your tire kicker I don't know but here's the deal and this is why what I suggest that if somebody

asks you the kind of question that Stephen Bartlett asked Wes Hoth you can respond with this

you can say a day is going to come when you will stand before God and give an account for your life

and the books will be opened and everything you have ever done wrong will be laid bare for everyone to

see and at that time one of two things is going to take place either perfect justice or perfect

mercy perfect justice is punishment for everything you've ever done wrong and God misses nothing

and perfect mercy is forgiveness for everything you've ever done wrong in God misses nothing

you already know your guilty and here's what I encourage you to do bow your head

beat your breast and say Lord have mercy upon me a sinner Lord Jesus for give me a sinner

and then get up and follow Jesus and never stop so there's my

receive Jesus and save your Lord because and here's the calculus you can add this in and I say it all

the time either Jesus pays or you pay either Jesus pays or you pay that's the calculus and that's

bad news good news the bad news is Wes pointed out is really bad but the good news is really good

because the bad news is so bad and if we give the bad news the short shrift and aren't honest with

people who are dying then they have no real motivation to accept the truth and move forward now

what I offered you is not only a characterization of what's what a person is facing but there was

also the little alter call thing too as it were here's what I suggest you do beat your breast

and this is from the parable of Jesus and the tax gatherer and the Pharisee and the synagogue you

might remember that and so I wouldn't necessarily go with that step if I didn't think a person was

in in position but I certainly would say that to Stephen Martin either here it is you're going

to stand before God there's the books are open now what perfect justice perfect mercy either Jesus

pays or you pay full stop now the reason that this way of putting I think is so helpful is because

it helps us to see that what's at issue here is not just a state of belief like you got to get

your beliefs right but it's rather whether or not your crimes against God have a basis for

for God to forgive you for them Jesus is the basis and if he takes the punishment on your behalf

there is no punishment left for you that's the calculus either Jesus pays or you pay now with

that in mind I I just want to read quickly some responses that Amy collected for me from

the internet that were comments left on the page below the dog the dog offering right Amy

oh that particular clip okay so um so here's what how some people responded um let's see here's

here's a here's a here's a person named Mandy I don't know if this is a guy or girl but

net even I'm just treated like a fella but net event he said he made he's lamenting

um if you go to hell while you live a good life no cheating no stealing no lying no raping no killing

um your drive is to be a good person but you're going to hell because you don't believe in God

well of course that's not our message that you don't believe in God that's the reason you're going

to hell now if you if as I said if you lead a good life which by the way goes way beyond

no cheating no stealing no lying no raping no killing there's a whole massive sea of sin

that uh we're guilty of that don't fall into those categories I mean just think of the two

greatest commandments love the Lord your God with your whole heart mine soul and strength and

love your neighbor as yourself I just tell you quite frankly I've said it before I've never

fulfilled that first commandment for one instant in my entire life and maybe once in a while I

might fulfill the second commandment most of the time I'm pretty self-centered like everybody else

so I'm not that good compared to the standard I'll be judged by and it certainly isn't

whether I believe in God or not so this person dear Mandy you you you misunderstood

he continues I see serial killers turning to God on death row after they tortured raped killed

innocent people do they deserve to be ending up in heaven just because they stare death in the

eye and try to redeem themselves to prove just to prevent hell well this there's more misunderstanding

here Mandy no no of course not they don't deserve it nor does anyone grace is how does one person

put it God's riches at Christ's expense it's not earned it's given it's not deserved what's deserved

is justice but God extends a mercy to the the worst of the worst as Paul characterizes it in

his letter to Timothy's because he considered himself in that category so it's clear that God will

extend his mercy to those who aren't the worst of the worst it's therefore everybody

it it Mandy is making it sound like it's a a flaw in God that God is merciful to whoever

remember Jesus said he who forgives much loves much

um then then Mandy goes on with doubts uh we're created I believe we are created by something

bigger than us I know there a lot is a lot of evidence that a lot of what's in the Bible

is at least close to the truth of my own morals he writes are most aligned with Christian beliefs

I often envy people that have no doubts but how you get rid of doubts I don't feel anything

in church I've read the Bible I've tried to reach out and feel a connection but um I feel like

the door just stays closed every time I try to open it it there this is there's more confusion I'm

very sympathetic to the honest characterization here but you're missing a point it isn't about feeling

feelings follow things it's not about feelings it's about the truth of what's going on I don't

go to the doctor doctor said I gotta see how this all this MRI the cats again you're you you got a

silent tumor in your brain it's gonna kill you in a month I don't feel anything yeah that's

why they call it a silent tumor the feeling doesn't uh let me back up and say the feeling is not

a sound indication of anything necessarily you could you could give a false positive could you

be a false negative you get a bad feeling for nothing you could have a good feeling for something

bad it's the assessment whether it's accurate or not that's the basic issue and uh

someone else says this is the most arrogant post and actual see today

I'm curious what's arrogant about it uh I I've seen West in enough situations that um I have no

reason at all to think of West's approach as arrogant now he's confident he knows a lot

but confidence in arrogance are two different things but this is something that you'll face if

you stand firm on your convictions people are going to interpret that as arrogance when it may not

you don't look at other arrogant Christians sure but but I don't think West's displaying

arrogance here and I think the criticism is based on his confidence if you think you're right

you're arrogant let me tell you a secret everybody who believes anything thinks they're right about

what they believe they may not know they're right but they think they are which is why they believe

what they believe that's what it means to believe something to believe is to hold that the

thing you believe is so it's true you're right no way out of that one um quickly here

um I can't imagine believing in a faith that offers eternal damn damnation

it's the word is misspelled it says delmation and I can't believe in any faith that offers

eternal delmation either not really well about those dogs and an eternal one that's over the

top anyway means damnation if you refuse conformity that's it once again it's a

unfortunately a total mischaracterization of what's going on it isn't refuse conformity to our

religion just asking the question have you lived a morally pure life your entire life or have you

broken with morality I won't even put God in it for the moment if you're broken with morality

you're guilty and guilty people deserve to be punished for the thing they're guilty of and by the way

we're guilty for a lot and most people know this it's not about conforming

here's one from a person named Zoe is that of female name I think that's a female that doesn't

travel okay Mandy travels but not Zoe you could disown a parent but they will still love you

and want what is best God is this one hundredfold so why would God send his own beloved children

to hell think about it it makes no sense he gave you free will to choose not force not

prime not no conditions we will all go to heaven says Zoe well by the way if he gave us a free

will to choose then how is it that we all go to heaven see just dragging us all into heaven even

if we don't want that with him I mean there's an internal contradiction there but I'll just

the Amy pointed that out to me when we first read this but I just I want to look at something

else though and this is what I talked about last week when people characterize our relationship

with God solely in terms of father child and I made two points there that's not the only

characterization that we see in scripture of the kind of relationship God has with those who he

made there's also sovereign sovereign subject there's also master servant there's also potter

clay these are all in there and would a father do that to his child no but a sovereign would

do that to a subject to his rebellious and the other point that I made please keep this in mind

is that the father child relationship then keep this in mind because Christians

abet this confusion by the way they talk the father child relationship is not one that God has

with every member of the human race we are not all God's children John chapter one verse 12

but as many as received him Jesus to them he gave the right to become children of God even to those

who believe on his name John writes in first John three the first verse one of my favorites I love

that way it sounds in the new American standard see how great a love the the father has bestowed

upon us that we should be called the children of God in such we are it's only those who are in

Christ who are in God's family the rest it is a sovereign subject relationship and the subjects

are in rebellion against the sovereign and the sovereign deals with the subjects his rebels this is

throughout the text one last one the big way to begin with I'm reading now from Roman

to begin with Jesus peace be upon him is not the creator stop making him what he isn't

I'm depositing for a moment I'm wondering why why he would say that because the testimony about

Jesus where we get in a detail about Jesus that would be Matthew Mark Luke and John establishes

him as the creator now this doesn't mean they're right necessarily I think they are but that the

point I'm making is if you reject the testimony of those people as to who Jesus is then where are

you getting your information about who you think Jesus is before Abraham was I am all things came

into being through him and apart from nothing came into being that has come into being etc etc etc

lots of passages I could cite there but I'll continue with the last line from Roman ruling also

ruling on if someone lives good life is on God and is not for anyone to say the creator knows what

is in his heart well you're right that is on God entirely and the creator knows what is in his heart

and this is the bad news because the creator has weighed in through Jesus remember whatever you

think of Jesus maybe you think he's not the creator okay well then you got to look at where you're

getting your information and here's what Jesus says in John 3 the light came into the world and

the men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil and then a little later in

the same chapter he says if you he believes in the sun has life not because of the of this abstract

belief but because they're putting their trust in the one who gives life just like trusting in a doctor

he believes in the sun has life he who does not believe the wrath of God abides on him that is

Jesus peace be upon him speaking all Christians are doing is passing on the information that Jesus

has offered you can reject it if you want that's up to you but don't act like it says a bunch of

Christians making up a lot of judgmental things and we're laying on other people we are Christians we

are followers of Jesus so we're going to say what Jesus said and that's what I see in this so far

and we're the the the bit that I know about in this interview with Wes often Stephen Bartlett on

just recently I'm checking out yourself um but I guess I'll close with this thought and Amy said

one of the reasons that an interview like this is so important for Christians to watch is there's

a lot of Christians who are afraid to say what Wes said with clarity and grace because they're

just afraid to say it um they don't want to they don't want to people to be mad at them

but when you are straight with people and tell them the truth you know it's amazing a lot of times

I'm not going to get mad some of these people were responding chronic crazy but Stephen Bartlett

didn't get mad he may not have agreed but at least now he knows clarity not agreement that's what

we're after and incidentally this is just the way that Jesus and the apostles spoke they spoke

frankly and without ambiguity okay this has been a long session let's take a quick break we

got some callers we'll get to them when I return on standard reason friends if you like this

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all right we got about eight minutes left for this segment and Caleb and Ohio has been waiting

for a long time so Caleb you got a great question let's shout Caleb

hello Caleb it's the sounds of silence are you in mute oh Caleb it's such a great question

oh there you go all right Caleb good to hear from you again

all right I apologize in advance if I'm a little slow I was a little tired today because I got

a really talk to some Mormons but then the Mormons ghosted me oh I wasn't able to talk to them

oh okay all right so um give me your question quickly because I want to get right to it I

know we we have just a short amount of time here but it's a really good question all right so

I have I have a friend who's into Greek mythology like the books and plays and stuff that

use the characters from Greek mythology right and that got me thinking you know two thousand

years ago what we today call Greek mythology was something that was taken just as seriously

as Christianity is today and you know I'm sure there was people who defended

belief in the Greek gods just like people defend Christianity and I'm sure they were very

effective at it the only thing was that it died off and so how do we know that Christianity

and this infusion won't be the same way I mean Christianity is already seem to decline in the west

yeah well that you know that's that needs to be qualified as a historical point but um

what happens in the future two hundred three hundred five hundred two thousand years or no we don't

know okay but the question about what happened in the past and the way it was understood then

and the way we understand it now that's a valid point okay but it's interesting the way you put it

but you said um you said the mythology of the Greeks was taken just as seriously as Christianity

is taken today um I'm sure that there were people who argued in favor of the truth of Greek mythology

and were very effective at it don't these are statements that are that I don't think you have

any ability to verify and so I'm not going to grant the truth of them I have some other things to

say about this but I'm not I I'm not can it does seem to be the case that ancient um clearly ancient

pagan theology whatever religions believed in the gods in the existence of the gods that um that

they worshipped that's why they worshiped them and by worshipping them they felt they could get

something out of it whether it's good harvest or more children or whatever so it's clear that

they took it seriously and you could draw that as for having apologists that argued for all of the

truth of Greek mythology and there's all kinds of details of mythology um that needs to be taken

or understood in terms of that genre now it's ironic um uh Caleb I just finished reading a book called

the myth makers and this is a book about um C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien and their relationship

but the book really focused in a lot on the on the concept of myth the genre of myth and what myth

was meant to do and how these guys were masters in that field and using that genre and understanding it

and creating whole worlds I mean especially well both of them were involved in world making so you

have the chronicles of Narnia that's a separate world you have the Lord of the Rings that's uh that's

a separate world that was created by these authors all right and they were very taken with the

notion of myth um but I am not willing to ground based on what I know now uh about how myth worked

and how it was understood that that these were all taken in an strictly historical sense

never mind they that they believe these gods existed but this involved mythology the point of

myth was to talk about something true but not use but use it in an analogical way talk about the

truth so you could have the so-called dying and rising gods of ancient Near Eastern myth

like Baal for example the god of the storms that you know they quote unquote die in the fall when

everything goes fallow and dark and then they rise again in the spring so that's a myth about the

cycling of the seasons and seasons to cycle and people believed some things that were true about

those gods but it it it is not anything like the characterization that we get particularly in

the gospels of Jesus of Nazareth which turns out to be and this is something that really really

influenced Lewis and pressed upon him by uh by Tolkien and uh I'm trying to think of the other

other uh inkling guy that had the conversation about this that that this was unique regarding mythology

because this is a myth that truly happened in history this is the true myth this was the life

transforming realization that Lewis had and Lewis addressed this question about Jesus of Nazareth

the gospels in light of the claims that this is just another mythology and his point Caleb was

I know mythology I know how myth works I know what myth reads like I'm an expert in the area of myth

and the gospels aren't myth as a genre their history their ancient history a totally different

genre now I have no reason to think that a hundred years a thousand years from now that there's

going to be a completely different perspective on it there are people now who think the gospels

are today who think the gospels are myth but Lewis is just making the point it's not that genre

it's a it's a historical biography written in the way that biographies are written in those days

accounts of people's lives and they can be assessed for their accuracy on those grounds and when

they're assessed on those grounds they get very high marks and even somebody like um uh

barterman affirms that that they get high marks there there are multiple sources on Jesus' life

they're early early testimonies on Jesus there's detail um that you don't that you that are

characteristic of historical accounts written close to the life of Jesus in the place that Jesus

lived um a great book I would recommend here and I know I'm moving fast but I'm just looking at

the clock a great book that I'd recommend is by Peter J Williams it's a smallest book I've

recommended it before I think it's title are the gospels can we trust the gospels is that it

yes there it is reason I'm pausing is there's a bunch of books that have very similar titles

can we trust the gospels and what PJ does is he goes into he goes into the all the detail look

at all of this stuff look at the names that are used look at the locations look at the way they

characterize is it the see of Galilee is it the lake lake Ganesoret uh well different people

call the same body of water different things that were characteristic of the way people at that time

referred to those bodies of water Mediterranean Sea Jordan River uh towns locations peoples names

all kinds of things each of these things and he he quantifies a tremendous number of things all

of these things from the internal evidence of the documents give us every reason to believe that

what was being written there was history and not mythology and I see no reason for the

passage of hundreds of years from now a thousand years for anyone to think any

differently than they do now some people already think it's myth because they don't like what they

read these kind of things don't happen in their mind but if you examine the texts for their

internal evidence as they are they don't follow a myth genre they follow a historical genre

anyway there you go I'm sorry rabbit speed there on that Caleb um but uh hope that's helpful

and i'm sure we'll talk again great cocoa here for stand a reason give them heaven friends

bye bye