Just Tell Them the Truth

0:00. . . . Alright friends, great coquel here and stand a reason and that's the show it on the host and thank you for being part of what we're doing. We're doing a whole lot more than this. I always say that part of what we're doing but I never really clarify. Stand a reason does so much more and many of you who listen know about that. One thing that I want to underscore that I don't mention enough but it's in a little commercial clip that we play once in a while and I know it's easy to tune commercials

1:01out but I think the way I started is if you like this show you're going to really love hashtag STR ask and the reason that you're going to love that is if you like this show you got me but in hashtag STR ask you got me and Amy Hall and that changes everything frankly. I love doing that show with her. I learned so much from her even though she said I agree with everything you said. Often times and then she adds a whole bunch more and I think oh my goodness I'm getting schooled here. Alright but she's fabulous and we'd both love you to listen to both of the shows. That's just one more thing. That's only three times or two times about 25 minutes each. So in alternating days we have not only this show and our each but we have roughly half hour of Amy and I and hashtag STR ask so then a whole bunch of other things. Tim Barnett has got red pen logic RP I'll just go to if you'd never heard of it just take

2:05my word for it check it out it's going to take you 15 minutes no it's going to take you about eight minutes to watch one episode and you'll be hooked. Just go to YouTube type in red pen logic and there you go. You can also go to our website at str.org and you find it at the bottom and all our links for all our social media etc but and we have speakers that are going all over the country sometimes outside of the country too we have our realities six of them a year that are selling out like crazy in fact Philly next weekend this weekend and tomorrow night I'm getting on the plane actually to head out to Philly on the red eye and that's been sold out for a month and we've got LA coming up April 24th and 25th it's not sold out we've got a thousand tickets already sold five weeks in advance now first time we're going to be a downy chapel a cavalry chapel downy and I mean we're going to we're going to have 2500 to 3000 by the time April 24th and 25th comes around and all I'm doing is

3:10underscoring all kinds of things that we're doing at STR all right when I say this is you know thank you thank you being part of this and what we're doing there's so much more and many of you are part of that I'm glad but I'm just laying it out we've I've talked a lot about outposts in the past we got 177 of these right now in 40 different states in 12 different countries these are these are kind of I used to think of them when I first had this idea 30 years ago like Mac user groups you know you get people of kindred spirit in the area of apologetics who like standard reason want to learn more about it or just want to learn how to thoughtfully graciously and intelligibly communicate their convictions and well they can get together local groups in the local church be led by a leader we have a goal this year by the way of having a standard reason outpost in every state of the union and I mentioned we have 40 but we're

4:14still missing some states so I'm going to let you know what they are Alaska Connecticut Hawaii by the way that's extremes Alaska and Hawaii right the hot and the cold we don't have people in those in those states with with currently doing an outpost Massachusetts well that makes sense there are Christians in message Mississippi North Dakota road island Vermont Wyoming really North Dakota and Wyoming I would think that that would be a prime stopping ground for believers anyway those are states who are missing if you want to be an outpost director if you're thinking about it just go to our website str.org and let me see the URL here no more details well somewhere on str.org you will find something about outpost and there's a whole description

5:15there in fact there's a map of all the outposts in the world 177 of them now and you can find if there's one within striking distance of you or you can think about starting your own especially if you're in Alaska Connecticut Hawaii Kansas Massachusetts Mississippi North Dakota road island Vermont or Wyoming look to have you on board now I mentioned just a few months ago about about people learning how to engage challengers in the culture as good ambassadors for Christ and being effective in doing so and and I mentioned ambassador because this is what our organization is all about we are not just communicating information we're glad to do that we're glad for other organizations that do it as well but we are trying to build a certain type of person we call that person an ambassador from 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 verse 20 Paul says there we

6:16are ambassadors for Christ as though God we're speaking through us we beg of you on behalf of Christ to be Rukka's held to God so our whole approach is an approach of geneal diplomacy we want our engagements with other people to look more like diplomacy than detail and the the model I mentioned ambassador model that entails developing capabilities in three areas knowledge gotta know something if you can be an ambassador you gotta know whatever the sovereign wants to communicate wisdom that is a ability to engage in a thoughtful wise maybe shrewd way and character in other words you do not want your character the way you are as a human being to undermine the message that your sovereign is sending you out to communicate so it's the end of reason we characterize this as

7:18knowledge is an accurately informed mind wisdom is an artful method and character is an attractive manner now we are we have it as a goal obviously to build those kinds of people and it's very satisfying to see more and more individuals that God is raising up not all guys like me but I mean a whole new generation of people that are taking up the charge the challenge as ambassadors for Christ with those kinds of characteristics not just people know a lot it's it's easy to learn stuff and that's really important but the way one engages the manner in which he or she does that with maneuvering in conversation in a diplomatic way and being gracious and attractive in the process that's absolutely critical Paul says make that well Paul says in 2nd Timothy says

8:24the Lord's bond servant is not to be quarrelsome but patient went wrong okay Peter writes in the passage where he joins us to defend the faith to defend the hope that's within us he says 2nd Peter chapter 3 says to do it with gentleness and reverence so this is a big part of the package the way we go about it now this is all a lead up to encourage you to watch the segment online of the diary of a CEO which I was a guest on in September with not only the host Stephen Bartlett but also two others including well one we told called drk because I can't pronounce his last name but that's what we called him on the show and also Alex O'Connor the atheist I had five and a half hours five and a quarter hours of film work that got winnowed down to three hours and 20 what six minutes or whatever

9:29and I have an opportunity to do my best in that environment but recently I think maybe just in the last couple days another edition of dewec diary of a CEO is released and the guest was Wesley Huff now if you've been paying attention for the last year at all in the area of a kind of YouTube Christian apologetics you can't miss west off because it was about a year ago that he was on Joe Rogan show and acquitted himself magnificently he is very close to getting his PhD in in disciplines that relate to ancient Near Eastern studies and ancient Near Eastern documents and classical culture and everything that isn't the specific thing actually he's he's majoring in spaces between letters what I talked to him about the details of it I said well you you're studying

10:31nothing but in his you know very refined analysis of ancient manuscripts and the spaces between letters that mean something he has amassed an unbelievable amount of knowledge he is really fun and since Rogan he's been everywhere of making the case for Christ and I mentioned the preliminary information about ambassadors for Christ precisely because uh Wesley Huff is such a good example of an ambassador for Christ the kind of people we want all Christian witnesses to be like with the knowledge and he's got that in spades and also tactical wisdom he maneuver so well but he's so gracious knowledge wisdom character his his his manner is he's unflappable and some people are unflappable because they're so courageous that you're not going to scare them

11:32come on get me what you got kind of I can deal with you and they're unflappable in that sense but that's not the unflappable manner that I'm talking about with west west is just very calm very relaxed and answers what he can answer and what he can't answer he just I don't know I don't deal with that but he exemplifies something that um Amy was just talking about this morning and actually it's a principle that we got from Dennis Prager and Dennis would say this over and over on his own show he would say with people who disagreed with him and there are many who called who did on a number of issues some spiritual some policy wise political whatever but he would say look at let's just focus on clarity not agreement clarity not agreement you know when you take this approach clarity not agreement you take a lot of the bad energy out of a conversation

12:36so it isn't so much that you are trying to persuade someone you're just trying to help both sides be very clear about what's at stake and what the different points of view happen to be so people with a clear take on them can compare them I find that for myself in a lot of circumstances I'm asking the question what do you mean by that which is the very first tactical question for the game plan the Colombo tactic what do you mean by that or some variation it's just to get clarity there's too much ambiguity in certain aspects of this conversation so let's be clear and in just a little bit I'm going to talk about some responses to the broadcast of Dewak that Wes Huff was a guest on for about two and a half hours or so and what was so nice for him and I'm going happy for for Wes is that he didn't have any competition

13:38there wasn't four people there was mono-amano as man-to-man it was it was Wes and Stephen Bartlett and Stephen has wide interests he has a massive following he's got what 12 million subscribers and he has a wide variety of interests but he has shown a real interest in ultimate issues recently which is why what we talked about in September whether life has meaning or not and this I actually don't know what the I haven't seen this episode with Wes and Stephen on Dewak that just came out but people are talking about it I've seen little clips of it and I'm going to play a clip for of it in just a moment but I have I'm planning to listen to it on the way back I just got on the way back to the to home I got a two and a half hour drive or two hour drive whatever it is on the way back from the office and the studio and so I'll listen but I've

14:41just caught portions of it I first was alerted to it this morning Amy's watched most of it and I just knowing Wes and what he's done on so many other venues with podcasters that he's such a great example about how to I'm trying to think of the best word here it's not posturing because that's it not he's not positioning himself that I mean that that's happening in some sense but that's not what I'm after it's just the way he is just a nice guy who knows a bit and does his best to answer the questions clearly and is not rattled by the opposition and challenges and whether or not his message is appealing I mentioned this last week I think I said the important thing about giving a message giving a response is not giving a satisfying response because a lot of the the proper responses to challenges to Christianity are not going to be satisfying to people

15:49emotionally usually they don't like what they're going to hear the important thing is not giving them a satisfying response but giving them a sound response a proper clear accurate truthful response so we're going to play a clip here from the show with Weshoff and Stephen Bartlett and it's just about a minute long here and you'll hear Stephen Bartlett start out with a common question slash challenge that is offered to Christians in light of the Christian claim which is Jesus claim about being the only way of salvation so let's hear what Stephen Bartlett has to say and listen how Weshoff responds if I don't believe in Jesus yeah I don't believe in the Bible but I live a good life and I don't believe in God am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures

16:54if you're living your life rejecting God God is not going to force you into his presence so I'm not going to go into heaven I'm not going to go to heaven then no where am I going to go well you would you would go to hell out to darkness where that will be weeping and mashing of teeth yes this is not a place I want to go no Stephen Bartlett I desire you to have a personal relationship with your creator because I don't want you to experience whatever hell it the urgency of the Christian message is the bad news is really bad and that's what makes the good news so good Jesus has taken on that hell on your behalf so there's a couple of things I want to draw your attention to about that short interaction and like I said I think the interview is over two

17:55hours long so there's a lot there to ponder and like I said I hadn't seen it yet but if this was like any other session that Wes has had over the last year and he's had a lot of him in light of the launch that he had with the Rogan experience then I think you're going to see a very deaf characterization of the truth of the gospel in the face of someone who's asking on his questions now what's nice about DOAC is characteristically it's not a combative environment I'm chuckling because it was a little bit combative when I was on not coming from me but Alex O'Connor was really trying to hold my feet to the fire on a number of issues and so that that was more challenging but characteristically it's more having a discussion and this is the way this was here's what I want you to notice among other things about Wes Wes told the truth Wes just simply told the truth you know that a lot of people in any without he wasn't trying to

18:58sanitize it at all it wasn't a but but but you know kind of thing uh uh uh this and that he just he just said so where am I going to go what you're going to hell out of darkness where there will be where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth yes now he he offered a qualification and I'm going to suggest a way that you might want to position yourself if you get asked that question in the future but I thought Wes was wonderful in that he wasn't being um apologetic at all he wasn't sanitizing trying to soften it at all he was telling the truth think of a doctor who looks carefully in a patient and sees the disease ravaging his body and the doctor says if you don't get

19:58help today you will be dead in a month full stop long pause sink in when you're dealing with information of that kind of gravity you don't mess around you don't mince words you just tell them the truth that's exactly what Wes did and you could tell by the you know kind of pregnant pause out this is not a place I want to go Steven says I get that and Wes obviously didn't want Steven to go there either and and that's what that segment ended with okay um but I want to I want to look at the opening line though uh and I'll just I'll just repeat it here because a lot of times when these kinds of issues come up in conversations with other people

21:02people just get it wrong that is they don't understand how it fits together and notice how Steven started his question if I don't believe in Jesus and I don't believe in the Bible but I live a good life and I don't believe in God am I going to hell or heaven as it relates to the scriptures now there's a lot there but I think a lot of people would just say an unqualified yes and this is where um it Wes talked about if you're living your life rejecting God there's going to be consequences okay but I want to look at some of these words here and the phraseology all right he says but I live a good life that's part of it right well look at if you're if you are living a genuinely good life if you are actually good then you don't need to save your Jesus and I came to call sinners to repentance not to save the healthy but the sick okay so if you're not a sinner then there's

22:08nothing to worry about if you're not sick spiritually you don't need a spiritual doctor all right if you live a good life not to begin right when one of the spiritual leaders or I should say religious leaders of Israel came to Jesus he addressed Jesus as good teacher and Jesus stopped him right away he says why do you call me good no one is good but God alone now it's a very important concept here that is easy to miss because people want to they consider themselves basically good well I'm a good person and by our standards I spend some time with Steven Bartlett for that show I actually don't know him other than that acquaintance for five hours while the cameras are running in September but I have no reason to think that he's some bastardly individual he's probably as good and nice as the next person or the best of the next

23:15people I have no concern about that but that misses the point no one is good because I'm alone he might be as good as the next person he might be better than me or you but the question isn't is the standard people say well I'm no Hitler good one was enough about you know Jesus of Nazareth either and you're probably more like Hitler than you are like Jesus so the reference game isn't me compared to others and I'm basically good in that the reference is to the standard of perfection which is always the standard when you're talking about law you don't get to break some laws as long as you keep the others you know it's like 50-50 I I kept more than I that's not going to work it isn't the way law works now well so that's if I

24:17live a good life qualify that and I don't believe in the Bible it doesn't matter whether you believe in the Bible it's not relevant to this question of salvation I mean there were lots of people who didn't believe in the Bible in the first century who became Christians and became part of God's family and under the forgiveness that God provides that knew nothing about the Bible they were Gentiles they didn't have the Old Testament the New Testament wasn't written yet this is not related to believing in the Bible so you're not no one is faulted because they didn't believe in the Bible okay so what I'm trying to do is clarify some of these pieces of this question and and remove the the stuff that's not relevant to the bigger issue how about this one if I don't believe in Jesus well this is where a lot of Christians will call make a gold line stand but there's clarification that needs to be made here because when you say I don't believe in Jesus there's a lot

25:21of people who get just missed the point it is not believing that makes the difference as if well if you only had the right beliefs you believe in God you believe in Jesus you believe the Bible you have all these right beliefs then you would qualify for going to heaven it's not the way it works you could believe the doctor is the best surgeon in the world the best oncologist in the world can really heal anybody he works on and you're the guy with cancer but if you believe that it doesn't heal your cancer you've got to put yourself in his hands to use his skill to rescue you from the thing that's killing you and so when we say believe in Jesus we're not just saying have this belief that we're saying put your trust in

26:24if I don't put my trust in Jesus to do something for me that I can't do for myself then I'm going to be lost and the answer to that is yes but as it stands right now if I don't believe in Jesus am I going to hell the I don't believe in Jesus stuff is too ambiguous it's too easy to misunderstand and people misunderstand it all the time so here's what my response if I'm asked this question I'm just going to suggest this to you because you you're bound to be in a circumstance where you'll need to do this with someone if you're open about your convictions and people begin challenging them are you saying and when I was on many years ago now on TV national TV with Deepak Chopra the number one new age guru in the world at that time it sold 20 million books and he laid the same thing on me it was as if if you don't if I don't believe like

27:25you believe then I'm going to hell it was almost sounded like your wish you're willing me into hell because I disagree with you of course this isn't the point and this is why I think the medical metaphor is useful you are dying and guess what you know it most people do guilt they experience guilt why probably because they feel guilty because they are guilty how about that so there's an existential awareness of a problem that people have even when we were together there in September with Dr. Kay and Alex O'Connor and and and Stephen Bartlett we were talking about meaning and purpose I said look at we wouldn't be talking about this if deep down inside we didn't have a strong suspicion there was meaning and purpose in the world that we needed to discover we wouldn't be yearning for what didn't exist this is an appeal to C. S. Lewis's argument

28:29from desire but in any event we the fact that we're talking about this is evidence that there is something to find okay so we're on this quest right and what I would do in making this response and this is the way I give an alter call when I'm asked to do it and I don't do a standard kind of you know believe Jesus Lord and Savior raise your hand I see that hand come forward whatever I just don't do any of that stuff I I don't think oh what's the best way to put this obviously God uses it I'm not dissing it at all but I think there's a better way to do it that avoids a lot of the language that people may not completely understand the significance of so believing Jesus Lord and Savior to a lot of people sounds like religious noise sorry if you've been around church for a long time you kind of get what that means but I think there's a better way to do it if I'm

29:30asked to do this and this is what I did last season our series of realities where I close the sessions I said look among other things as as I'm giving a challenge to the believers I'm speaking to the non-believers a lot of you people came here and you're maybe somebody dragged you here maybe your tire kicker I don't know but here's the deal and this is why what I suggest that if somebody asks you the kind of question that Stephen Bartlett asked Wes Hoth you can respond with this you can say a day is going to come when you will stand before God and give an account for your life and the books will be opened and everything you have ever done wrong will be laid bare for everyone to see and at that time one of two things is going to take place either perfect justice or perfect

30:32mercy perfect justice is punishment for everything you've ever done wrong and God misses nothing and perfect mercy is forgiveness for everything you've ever done wrong in God misses nothing you already know your guilty and here's what I encourage you to do bow your head beat your breast and say Lord have mercy upon me a sinner Lord Jesus for give me a sinner and then get up and follow Jesus and never stop so there's my receive Jesus and save your Lord because and here's the calculus you can add this in and I say it all the time either Jesus pays or you pay either Jesus pays or you pay that's the calculus and that's

31:40bad news good news the bad news is Wes pointed out is really bad but the good news is really good because the bad news is so bad and if we give the bad news the short shrift and aren't honest with people who are dying then they have no real motivation to accept the truth and move forward now what I offered you is not only a characterization of what's what a person is facing but there was also the little alter call thing too as it were here's what I suggest you do beat your breast and this is from the parable of Jesus and the tax gatherer and the Pharisee and the synagogue you might remember that and so I wouldn't necessarily go with that step if I didn't think a person was in in position but I certainly would say that to Stephen Martin either here it is you're going to stand before God there's the books are open now what perfect justice perfect mercy either Jesus pays or you pay full stop now the reason that this way of putting I think is so helpful is because

32:49it helps us to see that what's at issue here is not just a state of belief like you got to get your beliefs right but it's rather whether or not your crimes against God have a basis for for God to forgive you for them Jesus is the basis and if he takes the punishment on your behalf there is no punishment left for you that's the calculus either Jesus pays or you pay now with that in mind I I just want to read quickly some responses that Amy collected for me from the internet that were comments left on the page below the dog the dog offering right Amy oh that particular clip okay so um so here's what how some people responded um let's see here's

33:51here's a here's a here's a person named Mandy I don't know if this is a guy or girl but net even I'm just treated like a fella but net event he said he made he's lamenting um if you go to hell while you live a good life no cheating no stealing no lying no raping no killing um your drive is to be a good person but you're going to hell because you don't believe in God well of course that's not our message that you don't believe in God that's the reason you're going to hell now if you if as I said if you lead a good life which by the way goes way beyond no cheating no stealing no lying no raping no killing there's a whole massive sea of sin that uh we're guilty of that don't fall into those categories I mean just think of the two greatest commandments love the Lord your God with your whole heart mine soul and strength and

34:56love your neighbor as yourself I just tell you quite frankly I've said it before I've never fulfilled that first commandment for one instant in my entire life and maybe once in a while I might fulfill the second commandment most of the time I'm pretty self-centered like everybody else so I'm not that good compared to the standard I'll be judged by and it certainly isn't whether I believe in God or not so this person dear Mandy you you you misunderstood he continues I see serial killers turning to God on death row after they tortured raped killed innocent people do they deserve to be ending up in heaven just because they stare death in the eye and try to redeem themselves to prove just to prevent hell well this there's more misunderstanding here Mandy no no of course not they don't deserve it nor does anyone grace is how does one person

35:58put it God's riches at Christ's expense it's not earned it's given it's not deserved what's deserved is justice but God extends a mercy to the the worst of the worst as Paul characterizes it in his letter to Timothy's because he considered himself in that category so it's clear that God will extend his mercy to those who aren't the worst of the worst it's therefore everybody it it Mandy is making it sound like it's a a flaw in God that God is merciful to whoever remember Jesus said he who forgives much loves much um then then Mandy goes on with doubts uh we're created I believe we are created by something bigger than us I know there a lot is a lot of evidence that a lot of what's in the Bible

37:00is at least close to the truth of my own morals he writes are most aligned with Christian beliefs I often envy people that have no doubts but how you get rid of doubts I don't feel anything in church I've read the Bible I've tried to reach out and feel a connection but um I feel like the door just stays closed every time I try to open it it there this is there's more confusion I'm very sympathetic to the honest characterization here but you're missing a point it isn't about feeling feelings follow things it's not about feelings it's about the truth of what's going on I don't go to the doctor doctor said I gotta see how this all this MRI the cats again you're you you got a silent tumor in your brain it's gonna kill you in a month I don't feel anything yeah that's why they call it a silent tumor the feeling doesn't uh let me back up and say the feeling is not a sound indication of anything necessarily you could you could give a false positive could you

38:03be a false negative you get a bad feeling for nothing you could have a good feeling for something bad it's the assessment whether it's accurate or not that's the basic issue and uh someone else says this is the most arrogant post and actual see today I'm curious what's arrogant about it uh I I've seen West in enough situations that um I have no reason at all to think of West's approach as arrogant now he's confident he knows a lot but confidence in arrogance are two different things but this is something that you'll face if you stand firm on your convictions people are going to interpret that as arrogance when it may not you don't look at other arrogant Christians sure but but I don't think West's displaying

39:06arrogance here and I think the criticism is based on his confidence if you think you're right you're arrogant let me tell you a secret everybody who believes anything thinks they're right about what they believe they may not know they're right but they think they are which is why they believe what they believe that's what it means to believe something to believe is to hold that the thing you believe is so it's true you're right no way out of that one um quickly here um I can't imagine believing in a faith that offers eternal damn damnation it's the word is misspelled it says delmation and I can't believe in any faith that offers eternal delmation either not really well about those dogs and an eternal one that's over the top anyway means damnation if you refuse conformity that's it once again it's a

40:09unfortunately a total mischaracterization of what's going on it isn't refuse conformity to our religion just asking the question have you lived a morally pure life your entire life or have you broken with morality I won't even put God in it for the moment if you're broken with morality you're guilty and guilty people deserve to be punished for the thing they're guilty of and by the way we're guilty for a lot and most people know this it's not about conforming here's one from a person named Zoe is that of female name I think that's a female that doesn't travel okay Mandy travels but not Zoe you could disown a parent but they will still love you and want what is best God is this one hundredfold so why would God send his own beloved children

41:10to hell think about it it makes no sense he gave you free will to choose not force not prime not no conditions we will all go to heaven says Zoe well by the way if he gave us a free will to choose then how is it that we all go to heaven see just dragging us all into heaven even if we don't want that with him I mean there's an internal contradiction there but I'll just the Amy pointed that out to me when we first read this but I just I want to look at something else though and this is what I talked about last week when people characterize our relationship with God solely in terms of father child and I made two points there that's not the only characterization that we see in scripture of the kind of relationship God has with those who he made there's also sovereign sovereign subject there's also master servant there's also potter clay these are all in there and would a father do that to his child no but a sovereign would

42:13do that to a subject to his rebellious and the other point that I made please keep this in mind is that the father child relationship then keep this in mind because Christians abet this confusion by the way they talk the father child relationship is not one that God has with every member of the human race we are not all God's children John chapter one verse 12 but as many as received him Jesus to them he gave the right to become children of God even to those who believe on his name John writes in first John three the first verse one of my favorites I love that way it sounds in the new American standard see how great a love the the father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the children of God in such we are it's only those who are in Christ who are in God's family the rest it is a sovereign subject relationship and the subjects

43:18are in rebellion against the sovereign and the sovereign deals with the subjects his rebels this is throughout the text one last one the big way to begin with I'm reading now from Roman to begin with Jesus peace be upon him is not the creator stop making him what he isn't I'm depositing for a moment I'm wondering why why he would say that because the testimony about Jesus where we get in a detail about Jesus that would be Matthew Mark Luke and John establishes him as the creator now this doesn't mean they're right necessarily I think they are but that the point I'm making is if you reject the testimony of those people as to who Jesus is then where are you getting your information about who you think Jesus is before Abraham was I am all things came into being through him and apart from nothing came into being that has come into being etc etc etc

44:22lots of passages I could cite there but I'll continue with the last line from Roman ruling also ruling on if someone lives good life is on God and is not for anyone to say the creator knows what is in his heart well you're right that is on God entirely and the creator knows what is in his heart and this is the bad news because the creator has weighed in through Jesus remember whatever you think of Jesus maybe you think he's not the creator okay well then you got to look at where you're getting your information and here's what Jesus says in John 3 the light came into the world and the men love darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil and then a little later in the same chapter he says if you he believes in the sun has life not because of the of this abstract belief but because they're putting their trust in the one who gives life just like trusting in a doctor he believes in the sun has life he who does not believe the wrath of God abides on him that is

45:26Jesus peace be upon him speaking all Christians are doing is passing on the information that Jesus has offered you can reject it if you want that's up to you but don't act like it says a bunch of Christians making up a lot of judgmental things and we're laying on other people we are Christians we are followers of Jesus so we're going to say what Jesus said and that's what I see in this so far and we're the the the bit that I know about in this interview with Wes often Stephen Bartlett on just recently I'm checking out yourself um but I guess I'll close with this thought and Amy said one of the reasons that an interview like this is so important for Christians to watch is there's a lot of Christians who are afraid to say what Wes said with clarity and grace because they're just afraid to say it um they don't want to they don't want to people to be mad at them but when you are straight with people and tell them the truth you know it's amazing a lot of times

46:31I'm not going to get mad some of these people were responding chronic crazy but Stephen Bartlett didn't get mad he may not have agreed but at least now he knows clarity not agreement that's what we're after and incidentally this is just the way that Jesus and the apostles spoke they spoke frankly and without ambiguity okay this has been a long session let's take a quick break we got some callers we'll get to them when I return on standard reason friends if you like this broadcast I know you'll love hashtag STR ask it's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy Hall and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter hashtag STR ask is released twice a week Mondays and Thursdays and it's only about 20 minutes long so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage or just playing low-figure at home Amy and I tackle your questions on theology

47:31and ethics and culture and lots more offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face you can listen on apple podcasts or wherever you download your own shows just remember send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast hashtag STR ask that's hashtag STR ask would you like a standard reason speaker at your event Greg Allen Tim John Megan and I trip are available in person or online just email booking at str.org our team speaks on a wide range of topics from issues in bioethics gender and science to topics in apologetics theology and philosophy and how to respond to other world views all from a biblical perspective whether it's a conference youth event or Sunday service we're here to give confidence for every Christian clear thinking for every challenge courage and grace for every encounter all right we got about eight minutes left for this segment and Caleb and Ohio has been waiting

48:35for a long time so Caleb you got a great question let's shout Caleb hello Caleb it's the sounds of silence are you in mute oh Caleb it's such a great question oh there you go all right Caleb good to hear from you again all right I apologize in advance if I'm a little slow I was a little tired today because I got a really talk to some Mormons but then the Mormons ghosted me oh I wasn't able to talk to them oh okay all right so um give me your question quickly because I want to get right to it I know we we have just a short amount of time here but it's a really good question all right so I have I have a friend who's into Greek mythology like the books and plays and stuff that use the characters from Greek mythology right and that got me thinking you know two thousand years ago what we today call Greek mythology was something that was taken just as seriously as Christianity is today and you know I'm sure there was people who defended

49:39belief in the Greek gods just like people defend Christianity and I'm sure they were very effective at it the only thing was that it died off and so how do we know that Christianity and this infusion won't be the same way I mean Christianity is already seem to decline in the west yeah well that you know that's that needs to be qualified as a historical point but um what happens in the future two hundred three hundred five hundred two thousand years or no we don't know okay but the question about what happened in the past and the way it was understood then and the way we understand it now that's a valid point okay but it's interesting the way you put it but you said um you said the mythology of the Greeks was taken just as seriously as Christianity is taken today um I'm sure that there were people who argued in favor of the truth of Greek mythology and were very effective at it don't these are statements that are that I don't think you have

50:42any ability to verify and so I'm not going to grant the truth of them I have some other things to say about this but I'm not I I'm not can it does seem to be the case that ancient um clearly ancient pagan theology whatever religions believed in the gods in the existence of the gods that um that they worshipped that's why they worshiped them and by worshipping them they felt they could get something out of it whether it's good harvest or more children or whatever so it's clear that they took it seriously and you could draw that as for having apologists that argued for all of the truth of Greek mythology and there's all kinds of details of mythology um that needs to be taken or understood in terms of that genre now it's ironic um uh Caleb I just finished reading a book called

51:43the myth makers and this is a book about um C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien and their relationship but the book really focused in a lot on the on the concept of myth the genre of myth and what myth was meant to do and how these guys were masters in that field and using that genre and understanding it and creating whole worlds I mean especially well both of them were involved in world making so you have the chronicles of Narnia that's a separate world you have the Lord of the Rings that's uh that's a separate world that was created by these authors all right and they were very taken with the notion of myth um but I am not willing to ground based on what I know now uh about how myth worked and how it was understood that that these were all taken in an strictly historical sense

52:45never mind they that they believe these gods existed but this involved mythology the point of myth was to talk about something true but not use but use it in an analogical way talk about the truth so you could have the so-called dying and rising gods of ancient Near Eastern myth like Baal for example the god of the storms that you know they quote unquote die in the fall when everything goes fallow and dark and then they rise again in the spring so that's a myth about the cycling of the seasons and seasons to cycle and people believed some things that were true about those gods but it it it is not anything like the characterization that we get particularly in the gospels of Jesus of Nazareth which turns out to be and this is something that really really influenced Lewis and pressed upon him by uh by Tolkien and uh I'm trying to think of the other

53:52other uh inkling guy that had the conversation about this that that this was unique regarding mythology because this is a myth that truly happened in history this is the true myth this was the life transforming realization that Lewis had and Lewis addressed this question about Jesus of Nazareth the gospels in light of the claims that this is just another mythology and his point Caleb was I know mythology I know how myth works I know what myth reads like I'm an expert in the area of myth and the gospels aren't myth as a genre their history their ancient history a totally different genre now I have no reason to think that a hundred years a thousand years from now that there's going to be a completely different perspective on it there are people now who think the gospels

54:56are today who think the gospels are myth but Lewis is just making the point it's not that genre it's a it's a historical biography written in the way that biographies are written in those days accounts of people's lives and they can be assessed for their accuracy on those grounds and when they're assessed on those grounds they get very high marks and even somebody like um uh barterman affirms that that they get high marks there there are multiple sources on Jesus' life they're early early testimonies on Jesus there's detail um that you don't that you that are characteristic of historical accounts written close to the life of Jesus in the place that Jesus lived um a great book I would recommend here and I know I'm moving fast but I'm just looking at the clock a great book that I'd recommend is by Peter J Williams it's a smallest book I've

55:58recommended it before I think it's title are the gospels can we trust the gospels is that it yes there it is reason I'm pausing is there's a bunch of books that have very similar titles can we trust the gospels and what PJ does is he goes into he goes into the all the detail look at all of this stuff look at the names that are used look at the locations look at the way they characterize is it the see of Galilee is it the lake lake Ganesoret uh well different people call the same body of water different things that were characteristic of the way people at that time referred to those bodies of water Mediterranean Sea Jordan River uh towns locations peoples names all kinds of things each of these things and he he quantifies a tremendous number of things all of these things from the internal evidence of the documents give us every reason to believe that what was being written there was history and not mythology and I see no reason for the

57:04passage of hundreds of years from now a thousand years for anyone to think any differently than they do now some people already think it's myth because they don't like what they read these kind of things don't happen in their mind but if you examine the texts for their internal evidence as they are they don't follow a myth genre they follow a historical genre anyway there you go I'm sorry rabbit speed there on that Caleb um but uh hope that's helpful and i'm sure we'll talk again great cocoa here for stand a reason give them heaven friends bye bye