Kevin Reddington Said WHAT About Lindsay Clancy and Jail?!

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1:00This is Troy Millens from Earn Your Leisure. On Earn Your Leisure, we're all about smart money moves. And here's one most people skip. And it starts with insureify. Most of us never shop our car insurance. The policy renews every year. The rate creeps up a little at a time. And nobody calls you to tell you. You stay with the same company because it's easy. And that convenience costs you real money. That's what insureify fixes. Real quotes from more than 120 top insurance companies. Side by side. About two minutes free, no phone calls, no pressure. And if there's nothing better for you right now, insureify keeps watching and tells you when that changes. So you're never stuck over paying. Millions of people have used insureify to shop for their car insurance. So insure with insureify. Go to insureify.com. That's INSUR. IFY.com. Insureify.com. Ready for a real adventure? Skip the guesswork. Adventure Life's expert trip planners filled custom journeys to the Galapagos islands Antarctica and beyond.

2:01Your adventure starts now. Find it at adventurelife.com. This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Following the 11-to-1 Miss Trial and the Lindsay Clancy case, Defense Attorney Kevin Reddington is pulling out every stop to prevent a second trial, including going on national TV and asking the president for a pardon. Reddington knows a federal pardon is legally impossible in a state case. So this is a highly calculated chess move. Many are confused. What's he doing? Is he an idiot? Yes, he knows what he's doing. He's publicly boxed himself in, stating he will not accept a day in jail for Lindsay. So what exactly is the defense's end game here? Back with us to help break all this down attorney and former prosecutor Eric Fattis, along with Robin Dreeck, retired FBI special agent, chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. So yeah, let's talk about that.

3:04Reddington obviously knows a presidential pardon doesn't even exist as an option in a state case. So what from a attorney land, defense attorney land, might actually be the strategy here. How does a defense attorney weaponize a national television plea to the president to somehow create leverage against the local DA? Sure. I mean, sometimes in defense, you've got to get created. And there might be measures you take that have more of a practical import than a legal import. And this might be one of them. Because you know, you look at the Tina Peters case. She was the clerk in Colorado convicted of getting access to voting systems. And she requested a pardon from Trump, even though it was a state conviction. Well, low and behold, in that case, Trump was being very vocal about warning justice for Tina Peters whom she whom he believes is innocent. And ultimately, the Colorado governor felt that pressure and Trump directed it specifically at him. He commuted her sentence.

4:06He lessened her sentence. Many folks in my state believe because of this presidential influence. And so even though the president's pardon would not have any legal import in the state case, it could have some very serious practical import. And I think Reddington's leaving nothing on the table and considering all of those evidence. It was an interesting move because I totally get that aspect, Eric. But then when you do a deeper analysis of where, again, this has not really been too much of a political case. It's been more of a gender case and mental health case. All these other areas. I mean, it's kind of cross party lines and it's to some extent because if you follow the people or look at the people that Trump typically looks at, like the Megan Kelly's, the Nancy Graces, you know, these people are hardcore anti-Linsey throwaway, lockaway. And why we even talking about the shoes of murder of four of her three kids. And so with and Trump's statement that he made the one statement that we saw was more in lines

5:08with that kind of so I'm curious. Do you still see that in play or was I mean, what do you think was in Reddington's mind kind of in your mind or was he seeing something bigger because I, so here's right, give credit. I give credit to the guy who's been got 50 years of reps being Reddington about knowing exactly what he's doing. But a lot of us with smaller brains don't quite understand it necessarily as it's playing out. So you got a 50 pound brain, Eric. What do you think? I think that there is a lot going on there and might characterize Trump as a flexible on policy issues, on positions that might historically align with this party or something like that. There have been times in the past where maybe Republicans were of a certain position and then Trump saw an opportunity and and he came out with something different. And in fact, sometimes sues the positions of his own followers to a different side. And so perhaps Reddington said,

6:09hey, I know that a lot of folks on that side might not be the biggest fan of Mike client, but Trump might be more receptive, might be open minded. Maybe there's some kind of political traction for Trump there. And he's got an appetite for pursuing those things. And so, you know, Reddington's doing the best he can for his client. And I think that on the balance, it makes sense to do everything he can. And this is one of those measures. Yeah, good analysis. That's the insight. I like that. It's it's interest. I mean, is I mean, this just feels like a case where I don't think any politician. I don't care what side you're on. I think would want to touch it with a 10-fold because there's no winning here. I mean, you're I mean, I'm sure there if we were to look at stats, there probably is some sort of correlation with where it would weigh heavier based on this party or that party to a certain extent. But but even within that, even within a single party, I'm sure there's still quite a divide. This doesn't necessarily go along political lines,

7:10per se. I don't see an advantage to any politician, including Trump weighing in. I mean, I maybe Trump is your best bet, though, someone who seems to not really give a shit about and just kind of do whatever he wants. If he feels one way, you might get him to do something one way, even if it's not of the interest of his political links. I don't know. I don't like a political on this. It's just I don't see why anyone would take this hot potato no matter who you are. So what Eric did right there was he's looking at the behavior arc of of a politician. You know, if no one likes to Trump word, I don't care. But he's taking that behavior arc. If it's politically advanced advantageous to him. And as you laid it out, Eric, first of all, it costs nothing to take the shot as Reddington did to see. And at the same time, though, if you have a huge, if he's assessing, who knows, right? But if he's assessing that there's a large part of the voting population that would be aligning that he doesn't currently have, that would be aligning with Lindsay

8:12that coming up on midterms could actually help. I mean, so there's Reddington kind of reading the tea leaves as a, hey, it doesn't hurt to try. So it's a really, that was a really interesting assessment, Eric. Yeah. I think it's a gamble. The big, beautiful part. And I love Gen Zs. That's what I mean. Yeah. The big, beautiful part. Yeah. I just don't. I don't know. I just think it's too hot of a potato. But who knows? I mean, people do dumb shit all the time. The new jail ultimatum, Reddington publicly had boxed himself in this week's getting. He absolutely would not plead Lindsay into a day in jail. Okay. I mean, you're, that's, you know, why you're speaking a little before we get to any sort of new trial or pleading here. I mean, when a defense attorney draws a hardline like that in the media, is that a bluff or doesn't 11 to one mistrial, truly give him the power to demand terms like that. When the state sitting back on their side, going, do we really want to do this again? I think, especially in the legal world, when you have

9:19leverage, when you have momentum, and we're talking about the highest stakes case there is, you've got to wield it. And I think that you can make some forceful representations. And sometimes are you bluffing? Are you partially bluffing? You know, maybe she would take something that's like two years in incarceration. And maybe she would get credit for that for a lot of times she's already been, you know, restrained. I'll be at a, I'm saying, cancer hospital. You know, I'm not sure that that that that if there was a sweetheart deal that came through that said, Hey, you know, have her do another 30 days jail. We're going to call it good. I think he would be a fool not to take that. Yeah. But, but I think it makes sense to, to show the DA, hey, we're not screwing around. And we're willing to take this all the way next time. And what are y'all going to do that? Hey, Eric, one of the one of the comments just posted up there. Thanks Lisa. And I saw this online too. We haven't talked about it yet. So by Reddington asking for the pardon, can that be used against him and Lindsay at the next trial? If it goes to trial saying that he automatically assumed her guilt?

10:24It's a little complicated, I think. And that's why we want your take on it because they've already admitted that she killed her kids, but they're saying not guilty by reason. And so how does that play out if by him making a statement he's seeking a pardon? Does that automatically say, hey, we admit she's guilty? It's a really good question because especially historically, pardons would be given after a person was convicted. Then they're pardoned. The conviction is erased as is the sentence. However, recently there had been preemptive pardons, including for like Joe Biden pardoned, Hunter Biden preemptively his son because he was worried about a future prosecution. So I don't think it necessarily admits any sort of fault or criminal liability or conviction. But yeah, so I think that you could request a preemptive pardon without acknowledging that kind of wrongdoing. So I think he's probably in the clear there. And I think a judge would never let it in in the second go around in part because it didn't necessarily come from Lindsay. You can't attribute everything a person's attorney says to that person. And so yeah, I think that for those

11:30issues, a judge would not let it in. We're learning a lot more through the testimony of jurors to various media outlets about what was going on in that jury room behind closed doors about the holdout juror, the allegations basically stating that they they saw reasonable doubt. They verbally said they saw reasonable doubt that's the allegations other jurors are making about the one holdout. But they were going to follow their convictions. And their conviction said, we don't care. We don't care that there's reasonable doubt. I can see that. And a lot of people can a lot of people can look at this case. This is why it ended the way it did. There's a lot of people looking easily look at this case and go, yeah, I understand how there might be a mental illness process going on here. I understand that she was filled by the system. She still killed her kids. I don't care. She should burn. That's the attitude of some people. Okay, I get it. That's that's how some people think. But it is also not following the law, per se, or at least one, I'd say one part of the instruction

12:34of the law that was given by the judge to the jurors of follow the letter of the law. Understand what reasonable doubt means. Apply it to this case. Because in the hour long jury instructions that sound more like and look on paper, more like the sign this agreement here is you scroll through 72 pages of very fine type and then apply every sentence of this to this case. Also in there is, you know, your convictions matter. Follow your convictions as well. Convictions aren't the law. Let's talk about that. You got that 11 to 1 split. Is this how the law is supposed to be followed? Is this is this what was intended when we give jury instructions about understanding reasonable doubt or have has the minutia of jury instructions literally turned into that huge list of instructions that nobody reads or fully understands. They

13:37just end up checking the box at the end of the day because it contradicts itself throughout the entire process. Jury instructions can be a confusing, just a confusing, overwhelming mess for these jurors. I've sat through some jury instruction readings that take more than an hour. The jury doesn't get the instructions in their hand usually as the judges reading them. And so they're just being talked at for an hour about all these foreign arcane legal concepts. And then we're saying, Hey, apply every single word of what we do just turn over an hour plus to this case. These are official jurors. Like that's hardest shit to do. So I think that that's a problem. Do we give jurors so much power and rightfully so to determine guilt or innocence, but we don't give them power to override the law and just make their own judgment calls that contradict that law. And so I think we got to be careful in terms of how much latitude we're giving jurors and

14:38their application of the law. And what their role really is did the juror violate the law, the one that that held out. I'm not like I'm not in any way saying, you know, go after this person or be I mean, but I'm just if we're trying to understand the jury instructions, what we've understood this person said in the courtroom or in the the the jury room of of understanding the reasonable doubt, but still sticking with it. Were they violating the law or were they following their convictions? In my world from what I understand as a lay person, just like that juror, I don't know. I think that's the problem here. I don't know. I don't think they knew. I don't think anybody knows. Yeah, that that is that is a tough issue. I you know, one possible analogy is like let's say that there was a case against an alleged gang member that he essays someone tortured them and then brutally off them. And that during the trial, there was just insufficient evidence. There was reasonable

15:40doubt, but then a juror said, yeah, I know, but I hate this guy. He's scum of the earth. I think that he did do some of these things and my convictions are saying, I can't let this guy go. And so I'm not going to vote not guilty. As you know, as difficult as that juror's situation might be, I think that that would not be following the law if there was reasonable doubt. And when we apply it to this situation, if this potential juror did acknowledge that he believes there is reasonable doubt, but my conviction should override that. That last part is just not consistent with the law and consistent with jurors are allowed to do back there. And so to follow up with that, reading and again, correct me if I'm wrong on my facts on this, but I believe I saw that reading tenant stated that he might pursue the double jeopardy issue because of this one juror. Is that a possibility? Right. Right. And that's my question is so it's here, say, because only the other jurors are saying what that 11 jurors said and is double jeopardy potentially in play because of that.

16:46I don't think so because double jeopardy would, I think, require a complete acquittal. I think it can't be that if there is still a disagreement among the jury and there's no finality as to the charges regarding guilt or innocence, I don't think you can go back and say, yeah, well, this juror's screwed up and it should have been a not guilty because it should have been a not guilty. That should have a perclusive effect on any future prosecution to prevent it. I don't think you can do that. And I don't think you can file a appeal like saying, hey, this juror should have voted for my side, but they didn't. And I'm mad about that. So court, I need you to change what the outcome was of this trial. I think that's a bridge too far. I think it's going to have. Did the judge fail in not putting in an alternate juror when Reddington brought that to his attention? I ask because if there are no consequences, let's say that this juror was wrong for what they did.

17:50I'm not saying I don't know. I'm just kind of playing this out. If if in fact, they were wrong and we're never going to know, it's not like this is going to go to trial or they're never going to like try this person of what were you thinking and were you following the letter of the law, there is no consequences. You can do whatever you want if you're a juror, you're relying on actual rules to be enforced by a judge. If you want to sit there and stone wall to hold them thing and nobody calls you out for it, or even if they do call you out for it and they're still like, well, we don't want to intervene. Then there's no rules. It's do whatever you want. No one fucking cares because no one's going to hold you accountable and you can go on your marry way as soon as the day is over. When there's no consequences and no one is actually pulling the levers that exist to take care of someone who may try and hijack the system. If that's what was going on here, what's that a failure for not not going on that road or is that really getting into dicey territory when someone is arguing their convictions say, no, I'm not going to go that way

18:53even if the 11 are going that way. I'm following your rules as I interpret them. Right. We give to a significant discretion in terms of how they're going to apply these laws. So a judge could need to ensure that the jurors are informed on the law and they're not confused about the law. But the judge absolutely must stop short of influencing that jurors opinion. And so I think the judge could have done a better job at instructing the jurors when they came back as to what the law was. And even on top of that Tony and Robin, the judge could have interviewed this holdout and could have said something to the effect of, I'm going to read you the reasonable doubt instruction. And then said, is it your position that there is no reasonable doubt or is your position different? I don't think you can say like, hey, you're really thinking about this part of the instruction. Are you sure? Do you hear this other piece of evidence? Does that affect how you feel about it? I think you cannot go into that territory at all. And in fact,

19:55we're going to have to raise the disagree. How folks who interpret the law through their own lens, through their own experience and in a different fashion. And even if we might not like their opinion, I think we got to be super careful about having any sort of sway or influence or pressuring these folks to give up some position they have about a case unless they are blatantly contradicted in the law. In which case, I think the judge does have to step them. So why didn't he? I mean, or was everybody far more concerned about belaboring the beginning of their labor day weekend? We heard that reaction. You're asking these jurors to come here on a Saturday. And then he stopped. He stopped. He's going to do today. Well, you're asking this jury to put her away in a small cell for the rest of her existence. Maybe a Saturday is part of the fucking job. Why didn't they? Why didn't he? You know, I think you should have been more hands on. I always get so frustrated when I'm in trial and jurors are indicating some kind of confusion or indicating, we don't know what to do. We're at a point where we can't move past it. We need some help.

21:00I think the judge has a duty to try to ensure that the process moves along in a just fashion. And sometimes that means informing the jurors of the law, assailing any confusion, and also individually interviewing certain jurors. And if the judge were to learn that one holdout was not following the law, I'm not saying that's what happened. But if that hypothetically did, I think a judge could say, hey, we have concerns about potential juror misconduct, about the integrity of the jury deliberations. That's why we have alternatives. Why in the world, not at least consider that? But I guess the prosecution would say, if you put it in an alternate, you're taking away our only vote. You're putting your finger on the scales of justice. There are just so many potential dipoles with the judge intervening with the jury deliberation. And let's reverse it now because a few people have put this in there too. So what would have precluded the 11 juror of the 12th from then going to the judge and saying,

22:02hey, these people are bullying me. Is there a mechanism for the one juror to write a note to the judge? The court and say I'm being bullied. And if he said something like that, there's high pressure. I don't feel it's fair. What's the repercussion of that? What can happen in those cases? Yeah, that and I was worried about something that's happening here. One thing, Robin, is the jurors don't always know that they can go to the court for help when the deliberations have stalled or something. They don't say, hey, and if you guys are deadlocked, make sure to come back to me and we'll consider a mistrial later. They don't want the jury to know that because they want them to go through the process reach a final outcome. And so this juror might not even know that they could go to the judge. But if there was such an influence, such pressure, I think that that is I think that is structural error during the deliberations of mistrial would have to be or should be imposed at that time and when we'd go round two. So in other words, if this one juror had gone to the judge with a note saying there's pressure back there, Reddington could again call it for

23:05mistrial and it had a higher probability. So could the prosecution do and say and the prosecution could say, hey, the one person who was on our side is getting bullied back there. That is patently improper in terms of jury deliberations. Got to do a mistrial. I think that that would certainly be on the table. Yeah, is a result of a mistrial the same as a hung jury? Yes. Yeah. So we still we're still saying. Mistrial could be determined on other grounds beside a hung jury, but that's one of the grounds on which it could be true. It's just it feels like patently insane that the jury doesn't fully understand the levers they can pull in the options they have. I find that interesting where I remember the like two days before they actually finally came to the verdict of it is like all they have to do is big one more call to the judge and it's done. But they don't know that like why the fuck don't they know that they should know every option that's available to them. You just spend an hour and a half reading the litany of instructions that contradict themselves and you couldn't

24:07slip that sentence in there in option they may actually have. I love it. I love it. I just caught the one sweet pie says 11 jurors had preconceived bias towards Lindsey Clancy. No, they didn't if you actually watching interviews of them afterwards. So incorrect. Yeah. Your thoughts, comment section sub stack YouTube. Be sure to to drop them in there. We'd love for you to weigh in as we continue to break down the Lindsey Clancy case. Want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast. This is Troy Millens from Earnier Leisure. On Earnier Leisure we're all about smart money moves and here's one most people skip and it starts with insureify. Most of us never shop our car insurance. The policy renews every year. The rate creeps up a little at a time and nobody calls you to tell you you stay with the same company because it's easy and that convenience costs you real money. That's what insureify fixes real quotes from more than 120 top insurance companies side by side

25:13about two minutes free no phone calls no pressure and if there's nothing better for you right now and sureify keeps watching and tells you when that changes so you're never stuck over paying. Millions of people have used insureify to shop for their car insurance. So insure with insureify go to insureify.com that's I and S U R I F Y dot com insureify dot com. Where will you go next find inspiration with the adventure life travel show on iHeart Radio. Share stories from safari guides expedition leaders and more from around the world search adventure life travel show on iHeart Radio and start listening today. This is Troy Millens from Earnier Leisure. On Earnier Leisure we're all about smart money moves and here's one most people skip and it starts with insureify most of us never shop our car insurance the policy renews every year the rate creeps up a little at a time and nobody calls you to tell you you stay with the same company because it's easy and that convenience costs you real money.

26:13That's what insureify fixes real quotes from more than 120 top insurance companies side by side about two minutes free no phone calls no pressure and if there's nothing better for you right now insureify keeps watching and tells you when that changes so you're never stuck over paying. Millions of people have used insureify to shop for their car insurance so insure with insureify go to insureify dot com that's I and S U R I F Y dot com insureify dot com. Where will you go next find inspiration with the adventure life travel show on iHeart Radio. Share stories from safari guides expedition leaders and more from around the world search adventure life travel show on iHeart Radio and start listening today. This is Troy Millions from earn your leisure on earn your leisure we're all about smart money moves and here's one most people skip and it starts with insureify most of us never shop our car insurance the policy renews every year the rate creeps up a little at a time and nobody calls you to tell you

27:15you stay with the same company because it's easy and that convenience costs you real money. That's what insureify fixes real quotes from more than 120 top insurance companies side by side about two minutes free no phone calls no pressure and if there's nothing better for you right now insureify keeps watching and tells you when that changes so you're never stuck over paying. Millions of people have used insureify to shop for their car insurance so insure with insureify go to insureify dot com that's I and S U R I F Y dot com insureify dot com. Ready for a real adventure skip the guesswork adventure life expert trip planners build custom journeys to the Galapagos Islands Antarctica and beyond your adventure starts now find it at adventurelife dot com. This is Troy Millions from earn your leisure on earn your leisure we're all about smart money moves and here's one most people skip and it starts with insureify most of us never shop our car insurance the policy renews every year the rate creeps up a little

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