Kids, Sleep, and Make Writing Great Again | Jerm Warfare Weekly Banter

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1:23My name is Jim. This is Jim Wolfe, the battle of ideas. I don't think I have slept this little in years. Not even my first child. Don't worry, Jeremy. You've got a flight coming up. You're going to sleep all the way through it. It's going to be fine. I've been practicing. I've been practicing for not sleeping. In all reality, you guys have also got more than one child. With your second kid, did you have any of those regression issues? With the older one? You're really expecting an accurate memory of anything here. It would be my question. Well, first of all, it was 22 years ago. 21 years ago, Jeremy. Come on.

2:24Apparently, it isn't normal, though, for the older sibling to address a little bit because they no longer have the center of attention. But I mean, it's a difference in age. Two years. That's still not too bad. I don't know. It won't last long at all. No, it won't last long. But when you're going through it, it's very, very exhausting. Because you feel so frustrated because the child doesn't understand what's going on. And it's so easy when you're tired to lose your cool. And then you feel terrible when you do lose your cool. And so you have to do the whole thing. Just restrain, restrain, restrain. It's such a challenge. I think, actually, you say the child doesn't know what's going on. I think instinctively or intuitively the child absolutely does know what's going on, but is not a quit to communicate those sort of feelings and emotions and whatnot. I mean, I think age is

3:32a factor in it. But I think across all species, the arrival of new offspring and the effect of that has on the family dynamic, I think is completely understood by the others, which is why there is a perception of craving of more attention, a way that perhaps haven't been before. And whatnot. But I think it's just another thing that we've lost touch with in terms of our innate ability to be able to deal with it. Because I think we think we can do it by words. And we can't. I think so many human behaviors are still actually about non-nissarely physical demonstrations, but they're more aligned with behavior. This goes back to so much of what we talk about, which is why I think the unseen danger of being isolated from other people, because we all use

4:36these devices and we think we're communicating with one another. I don't think we really are. We hear the words. We say the words, but we're not able to transmit those messages that you can when you're in proximity to somebody. And I think when it concerns dealing with a child, especially if the child does have some language, you think you can crack everything with language. Actually, it's worse than that, Charles, isn't it? Because we don't hear the words. We don't even hear the inflection in people's voices. We read the words and we infer meaning from those and 99% of the time. Because I say this because the UK column is running for a more community kind of thing for the last 20 years. And in that time, we pretty much see it all in terms of, and I'm not excluding myself from this in any way, the chances of misunderstanding through text communication are absolutely guaranteed.

5:38You know, I couldn't agree more. And I think email in particular has so much to answer for, because it turned telephone calls into transcribed communications. And I can think of masses of people who articulate themselves very clearly when they're speaking, but their written word is absolutely not a representation of the way in which they would have said it. And people miss points. So, typically, I mean, I've been right from the earliest days of using email. I think it's, you are asking me for trouble if you ask anyone more than one question in an email because you definitely won't get more than one answer. For some reason, people are only able to apparently give one answer per email. And it just, you know, the increase in frustration, in misunderstanding has just, I mean, I think it's got worse and worse, but also has made people very lazy in the way that they do communicating. And it's just the time. You think how quickly you

6:42can resolve something either in a face-to-face conversation or telephone call, whereas trying to write it out in email particularly, and the back and forth and back and forth. You know, for what? It does look very much like a system just designed to make people way through for the rest of their lives. That's very effective if that's what it was for. If you take the situation that I'm going through and I think every parent goes through when they have two kids or more, from a like a stoic perspective, there's also an opportunity to see it as an obstacle over which you can climb and learn something about yourself. I have discovered over the last couple of years, having kids, that I've learned so much about me as just a person, just because of my child and the way in which my child engages with me. It's an incredible thing. I mean, in a way,

7:43kids can be the best teachers. Mike? No, I was going to leave that to you. Yes. I would agree. I think it does work both ways. I think you, even though you might not realise that you do get back what you invest into it. I was interested. I went out for lunch yesterday and at a nearby table, there were six children as part of a wider family party. In the first instance, I really encourage because the first three children sat down, had stuff with them. In actual fact, when I looked closer, they just had books. I found out that if you were going to sit down and have lunch, you sit down and have lunch, they sit there reading a book. The fact is they were waiting for other people, they had books. That's nice. That's really encouraging to see that they're reading books.

8:43But then of course, I don't know if it was because the other family turned up with tech, but after not such a long time, I learned the whole thing. I don't know if some screen or other, I don't know what it was, but they were looking at this and that. It definitely changed. It just made me think about what were the parents get back from that? That's how they've chosen to manage their children, which is to make them passive. When I say passive, what I mean is they're receiving, we've talked about this a lot before, but in a book, your mind is doing work, you're creating the pictures from what you're reading, whereas with a screen, your knots, your mind is not active in that way. I think in actual fact, you would be doing yourself down in the learning you get from a child, with which I would absolutely agree with you, but that is a

9:44dividend from what you hope to impart and invest in the first instance. So I don't want to sound sort of lofty about it in any way, but I do think that put in actual fact. It really does need to be a conscious process. I don't think it's a given at all that you will get that back from children. I think they need the absolutely need to work put in or the right environment created for them to be able to give that off, but when they do, I totally agree with you. Yes. When I'm sorry, I'm not going to attempt to suggest that we did everything or even anything right. The way we brought up our kids, but I think the things that made a difference where and I've mentioned this before, we didn't enforce this as a rule. That was that we had a conversation about it and this was the choice they made, but the first thing was that they didn't

10:46have screens, they had computers, but they didn't have tablets or phones until they were 16 or 17 or something like that. That was that was their choice. They came under a lot of pressure, peer pressure on that, but that was their choice. I think the thing that probably made the biggest difference was the decision that we would sit down at the dinner table every night as a family and we just talked. I think this made a huge difference to the way that they approached life and a lot of families don't do that. Obviously every parent thinks they're kids are the best on the planet, but I look around at some of the troubles that other people are having with older teenagers or people, your kids and their sick kids, but relatively speaking in their early 20s or whatever that are struggling at the moment. I'm not saying that's the reason for it,

11:52but I wonder how much of a difference that those two things made? Look, I will say that in my wife are doing fine. We have consciously and very intentionally tried to make sure that the struggles at the moment don't affect our marriage because I think this is very obvious that this kind of thing can put a huge amount of tension on your marriage, especially when you don't know what to do. There's no formula. Everybody has done something different and we all fumble our way through it. Our first kid was easy and our second kid is easy too, but it's not the second kid. It's the first kid now that doesn't like the second kid's arrival. What I can say is that it becomes very existential because it makes you make decisions that become very well thought out and intentional. I think that's a good thing because you think more about being present and that's

12:56something that a lot of us, because of screens, we kind of go into autopilot mode. I like the idea of manually driving. It's very easy just to shove a screen in a child's hand and say, how about it and go and do something else. We don't use screen time at all. We have children at that. I will say we have something called a Tony box. I don't know if you guys have heard of that. It's an amazing little toy. Basically, it's a box and it's got no screen on it, but it's got speakers, but the whole thing is designed in a way that can be dropped and thrown and whatever. So the child can't break it, but it comes with little toys and you can buy them in Amazon. These little they're called Tony's and they can look like superheroes or trucks or anything. We don't buy things from Amazon. Okay. I don't know. Whatever your local toy supply is.

13:58You buy these little toys and when the kid puts the toy onto the box, the box turns on with lights and it plays sounds. You can program it. You can read, you can record yourself telling a story or singing a song or whatever and then it starts playing and the moment he takes the toy off, it stops. It becomes a very interactive device that has no screen. But he is the sounds and he plays with it and he can touch it and if he bangs it on the side, it changes your recording that you made. It's very, very what's the little thing you form. It's creative and the fact is that you can drop it and you can throw it and it doesn't break. It's the most fun little toy that I've seen and it's great. No screen and it keeps him going and you can learn. But if you guys haven't heard about it, then it's very difficult to explain it. I think I get it to an extent. You haven't

15:05made the mistake of telling him that it's unbreakable, have you? I have not made that mistake yet. But yes, it can break everything. If there's ever a way to encourage a child, yeah. Okay. It's audible and I like that. I like that. It's all to do with sounds and touch. I think one of the best pieces of advice I have received with regard to the management of children and their minds is to allow them to get bored because basically they won't. They will always find something and the more they find, the more they learn. And I think that is in large part what people have been conditioned to completely veer away from. The idea now that's a long journey, even a moderate journey cannot be completed without some form of entertainment is just the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Of our generation.

16:12There was no such thing as in car entertainment. That was the car itself or the journey or the people you were with. That was all entertainment. Still is. Nothing's changed. Yet for an awful lot of parents, that sort of horror show if there isn't something to entertain the children with. Because thinking back to 100 years ago, whatever, before cars were a thing and motorways were a thing. This sort of length of time that took to travel for A to B and you just wonder what people did to have also wondered that time. Yeah, I've also wondered that Mike. So for example, flying on an airplane with a toddler, I mean, it's a nightmare. And I wonder what people did for more than two hours of traveling.

17:13I mean, I think as always, but then there we go. That's my view. I don't really see how it's possible to go bored on a journey, but there we go. I'll just put it out and leave it. No, but I mean, if you're in an airplane, right, you're in a very, very confined space. And a two-year-old does not want to sit still after the first hour. And then everybody else on the airplane suffers. Well, okay. I mean, I realized there's potential for disturbing other people. Yeah, anyway, but no, I, of course, I get an appointment, but there is a, I mean, I think usually there's a way that it can work out. I mean, airplanes are quite big. You can do, you can do quite a few laps. I mean, it's pencil, doesn't it? But yeah, okay, fair enough. But I mean, it's a good point. I mean, so I mean, I'm thinking of the of the Boers' year. And I mean, the story is the same everywhere in the world, but I'm just thinking, yeah, locally, how they traveled from where I am, Cape Town to the center of the country. Now, that's one,

18:15it's almost 2000 kilometers. Well, they didn't take an airplane. That's the, that's the important thing. Exactly. So, so, you know, it, it, it, it swings and runs, but you could argue that, okay, it took them three days to get from A to B, but that was a, that was a different pace of life and, and suppose there was lots to consider on the way, because obviously if you're traveling for a longer period of time, you got to think about where you're getting your food from, where you're getting your water from, where you're camping for the night, these kinds of issues, how you're going to stop yourself getting eaten by the lions, and all these types of, of problems. So, so, you know, it's a different, it's not quite the same issue as being on an airplane for six hours. I can't, I can't imagine being on an airplane for more than two hours with my, with my kids. But you know, what's really funny though is how society, we could also be just be talking about society in general. You know, if you, if you think about how social media has, has pushed people into, into toddler-like mentality and so many things that's ridiculous.

19:22That's what it's for. Yeah, I, I would agree. Yeah. No, it's true. In, in, in every respect, and actually one thing that does, um, relates a little bit to this, so I was going to say it early on when you're talking about being short of sleep. Um, you, you have tried fasting. Period, periods of time. Have you, have you not? Well, yeah, but it depends on what you mean. I mean, you're talking about not eating from lunchtime today to lunchtime tomorrow. Would you, would you call that fasting? Yeah, yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sort of intermittent. Yeah, I, I don't mean, I don't mean prolonged fasting, but yes, say for 24 hours or a bit more. No, I mean, the anyways that I mentioned it is that, um, that, uh, that is absolutely, um, well, okay, again, it, it completely depends. I know that a lot of people have had success with, um, fasting during periods of all fun, sort of prolonged, you know, chronic lack of sleep. And

20:26it was a more awake, uh, make a big difference. Uh, I can't, I'm not sure I'd really venture into trying to explain the physiology of it, but it exactly know why it would work. That's somebody listening does and they can get in touch. But, um, but I think again, it's sorry, the reason I mentioned it is because it fits into the, you know, can't do a journey for more than two hours without blah, blah, blah. I think the same thing is, is the case with food. People know largely because of what they do, it's in blood sugar and the sort of demand, do you know, your body's kind of telling you that you need more of it? But I think for so many people that routine of having to eat every couple of hours, I mean, it, it, to, to my mind, it's completely absurd. And, um, the body can and should go for quite long periods without food. And I think the benefits of doing that are just tremendous across the piece, you know, in terms of, uh, alertness and, um, and, you know, everything else that goes with that mentally, but also physically as well. And I think sleep is a big

21:29part of that or at least lack of, but being able to, to sort of function effectively. Anyway, just a thought. Uh, I mean, I think fasting is a very good thing. Uh, just, just in, just in general, I think, I think people probably are better off eating less often, uh, just as a general rule of thumb. I don't think the, I mean, this idea of eating three times a day, I think is an artificial construct. Yeah, I'm absolutely certain it is. It's completely artificial. And, um, and I think if you it, oh, I think again, I'm, I'm on, um, in tricky territory because I don't want to, and then on the sound sort of prescriptive as a, this is what people should do. I do think that if you're eating the right thing for your body, and I, and so therefore personally, for me, I, I know what that is. If I am eating what's right for my body, I absolutely don't want to eat three times a day. I mean, I, I wouldn't be able to do it. Um, and so, so this idea of listening to your

22:32system, sort of, and, and understanding it again, I think people with far and large loss because we've been pushed into processed, ultra processed, very sugary foods. And, and that is a, that is absolutely a sort of downward spiral. The moment you engage with that stuff, you're, your, the responses you get mean that you feel like you cannot be satisfied unless you keep eating. And, um, that's a, you know, that, that is a huge problem. But it, but it works both ways. Yeah, that's a downward spiral. The upward spiral is, um, I would say it's equally sort of swift or, um, is, is absolutely as beneficial as the, as the opposite is, is not the case. You said, uh, you said, you know what that, what the right food for your body is, um, was that because of experimentation on yourself or was it because of what, uh, sort of information or what? Yeah, that's a very, that's an excellent question. It's an excellent question, um, because it's,

23:35it's such, uh, for, for me, I don't know whether anyone else can identify with this, but when you, when you read or you hear something, that sounds compelling or convincing or interesting, and you want to investigate it further, it's so hard to consider that you're being completely objective in your, your, your own sort of studies on your body. So, for example, one of the things I found fascinating as a, as a guide is the blood type theory, which is written about, I'd say by a few people, the book that I'm most familiar with is by Peter Dodamo, and it's called, right for your type, I think it's, but basically, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's really good, and it's, it's blood type sound. It, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, just in very simple terms, it explains that, oh, the, oh blood type is the, sort of the original blood type, and that all the others are adaptations according to where people moved in the world, and therefore, you know,

24:36the necessity to build the tolerate dairy web privacy that hadn't existed, this and the other. But, so, with that in mind, the experimentation from the has confirmed, third, that that does seem to be true, but, but, but as I say, I, I can't say it without any reservation at all, because I don't need to what degree I'm experiencing my own sort of confirmation buyers, because it sounds so sensible and plausible, but I think, oh, well, I'll, I'll eat that, and I know I'll be fine. I mean, that is basically what's happened. So, so it's both. I have absolutely researched it, but also I have done quite a lot of guinea pig studies in only eating this, or, you know, eating this, but not that, and, you know, and, and again, trying that with different regularities, so, so the intervals between eating and how, and varying, sort of sleep, length sleep, time sleep, and, and yeah, all of this, it's been, you know, it's quite thorough, but,

25:38but as far as I'm, it says, there's absolutely no doubt that, that protein, sort of animal-based protein for meat meat is the, is the way to go, and if it's the right stuff, eating once day, be completely fine, and, and, and that helps with getting everything else, in the right place, the sort of, of, and the curative and sleep, and, and all of it. So, oh, come on, Charles, I can't just say, yeah, there we go, I've cracked it, anyone else can do. No, you know, we're, we're all, Charles, it's simple, just, stop doing all this self-research and just follow the science. Yeah, trust it, yeah, but see, this is the, yeah, I, yeah, so, no, tempting, isn't it? But, you see, these sorts of things are, they are hard to suppress. You, you've, even, even the BBC, does still, you know, if you search, you can still find, um, current content on their website that does absolutely dig into some of this stuff. So, they can't, they can't suppress it all

26:45together because it just, you know, it flies in the face of, um, of so many people's lived experiences, and just history, I mean, it's so flipping obvious, that what people used to eat is so, is so incredibly different from what people do eat and, and what Professor Bataker calls the diseases of civilization, were not in existence back then. So, this, this sort of idea, that just because we live longer, we are somehow living better and again, I know we've, we've done this topic many, many times, but, um, but it's, it's just such stuff and nonsense, it really is. So, so it's, you know, it's there, but yeah, some in the experts, yeah, okay, bye. I mean, at the end of the day, we must just follow what our grandparents did. We don't have to go that far back in history. Um, our grandparents generally were, well, I think far healthier than what we are today. Yeah, but you see, that's a funny one, because I know that one of my grandparents,

27:46as a, even as a teenager, so, so well before being, I can't remember when the, um, age limit on drinking alcohol became 18 in the UK, but, but certainly one of my grandparents was prescribed as a teenager, cigarettes, uh, and, um, Guinness. That's amazing though. Okay, I, I support that. I'm kidding. Yeah. So, um, you know, isn't that, isn't that sort of interesting? I mean, I'm not, I'm not sitting here saying, oh gosh, how terrible that, that's, um, that's completely wrong, but it, but the, the, the science does seem to be anything but settled on, on any of this stuff. But I mean, so, you know, it's like a good, it's like a bad, it's like a good again. Yeah, I mean, sorry, it's for jumping, but I've been having, um, off-air discussions about smoking for a while now. I haven't really been able to get any, any guests, but I am, I'm searching. Uh, I spoke to somebody not too long ago in person, uh, who works for, uh, Philip Morris. And he says, yeah, he won't speak

28:48publicly, but he says, um, there's a huge amount of misinformation deliberate coming from the tobacco companies themselves. Smoking has been part of, I'm not, I don't smoke and I'm not in any way endorsing it, but smoking has been part of the human, um, experience for thousands and thousands of years. Um, and there's no real hard evidence of, you know, smoking related cancer from long ago. Cancer's a fairly recent phenomenon. Um, and, and he says that, I, I think, uh, sorry, jump to drop, but I, I think that that, uh, the tobacco companies being mega corporations, um, have absolutely fallen into the same. Yes, of course. No, no, of course. Trap the right word as, as the food companies in the sense that they are providing, uh, the modern product is a hyper-processed product. That's exactly right. That's what he said. That's what he said. But he said, that's why he won't talk about it publicly because he doesn't want to seem like he's going against. He's employer. Right, but, but, but his employer, I happen to know, uh, is now, now that the sort of

29:55tobacco industry is, is in the past, is now looking at CBD and, and other, uh, alternative therapies, and is, is looking to do exactly the same thing to those as it did to tobacco and turning them into hyper-processed products with branded in a certain way, uh, in order to try to capture, um, what is, uh, then increasingly burgeoning sort of so-called alternative health, um, market. The point, the point is that, is that smoking itself doesn't necessarily mean poor health. I don't really understand it. I don't know why you'd want to inhale smoke. But I know that it's something that humans have done for, I don't know, relaxation or recreational purposes, whatever, um, but he was saying to me that, well, well, do you know, hold on, hold on, because if I think back to my grandparent, my grandparent's time, neither of them smoked that I remember, but, but certainly,

30:56uh, people around them did and, and, and, uh, no, in fact, one of my grandfathers did smoke a pipe, but, but smoking a pipe was, was something when I was, you know, a very young child with something that, that, you know, I, I loved the smell of that. Yeah, that was absolutely something that was, but less processed. Oh no, it's just different time for sure. So I mean, that's what he's saying. So it's all the other chemicals that they, that they put into these, um, these cigarettes and these, these, um, well, the, the e cigarettes also dangerous and, you know, for different reasons. That even just, I mean, what's, what's, why would somebody smoke paper? This is the, the other bit that they're never quite understood cigarettes. I get to just, you know, if you want to smoke a pipe, sorry, go on, Mike, I dropped a, no, I was just saying, if you want to smoke a pipe, because you're then smoking the, the product, you're not smoking all the, you know, the other bits that hold it together. But anyway, just seem ridiculous to me. Well, yes. Uh, and that's what

31:58people did a thousand years ago. They weren't smoking paper and they weren't smoking, um, a collection of chemicals that were shoved into that paper. They just found that leaf or whatever and then they would crush it and then, and then burn that and, and inhale that, that, um, you know, the smoke from it. And as, as I said, I still don't quite understand why you would do that. But there isn't any hard evidence that this was, you know, killing people on mass like today. Well, and also, I mean, there are endless examples of people who live to, you know, a hundred and something and have smoked several packets of cigarettes a day since they were sort of 14. So, you know, you could always find somebody to either prove or disprove your hypothesis about smoking. I think if you can get somebody on that does have something rather more to offer on, um, on smoking sort of generally, but also the, the industry, I think that would be fascinating that I appreciate. It's a bit of an ask to get somebody to come in as a woodwork. Um, so, but,

33:03you know, I mean, presumably, apparently, people who've left that industry that would be, um, well, maybe not happy to talk about it, but that might consider talking about it. But no, I mean, it, it is, I think it's just like food. It's just like sort of whole food. I remember, you know, the, um, the, the smell and the, you know, the sort of natural quality of, um, proper whole leaf tobacco is, is it amazing? I remember going into a, um, tobacco auction house and Zimbabwe decades ago. And, and it was, it was incredible. And, and to think that horrid, um, sort of manufactured, filtered cigarettes are the product of, of that really kind of wonderful plant. It just seems, um, seems a total travesty in exactly the same way. It is almost anything you take out of a packet in a supermarket will be, um, a complete perversion of the original food source. Um, so, you know, it's, it's terrible. Actually, also, I suppose the other

34:05thing is, um, I don't know, no, but well before the processing stage, what are tobacco plants subjected to, you know, how much, um, how much engineering has gone into those plants? How are they treated in terms of, uh, pesticides and fertilizers and what I, I, I have no knowledge. But, but again, I think I'll be, you know, that'd be an interesting thing to explore. Um, but yeah, it is, it is a funny one. Um, the, the desire in the first instance, you know, why would you, why would you want to breathe in smoke? It, it seems, um, it does seem somewhat counterintuitive. If someone's able to explain that one at a, um, as a, as a, yes, I suppose, a sort of physiological level. What, what is it about that? Is it because your body knows that you need to increase your levels of carbon dioxide or, I mean, you know, is there a reason for a benefit to, um, in

35:08hailing smoke? Yes, I think there is a reason that is a completely open question. Yeah, I think it's the one that you get. It has a, it has a psychiatric effect. Okay, but, but, but do you see, where's the, you mean, you know, like tobacco, well, yeah, like, like, like, those shrubs, um, it has a psychiatric effect. Well, it's, it's psychiatric to correct word. No, I mean, like, well, it has a psychological effect. I don't know. What, what are we doing? I'm looking for you. Psychosis. No, that's also the wrong word. It does something upstairs. Do you mean, do you mean specifically tobacco smoke? Would you mean any smoke? Because, because of course there are, there's also the tradition of, um, uh, smoke, you know, wood, wood smoke, and, no, obviously not fires in tight. A certain plants, obviously, obviously, give you, obviously, well, I mean, obviously certain plant, well, this is why people have been smoking certain plants for thousands of years, because they have some, some effect on them. Psychoactive, maybe, maybe, it's the same thing as taking, I mean, I said, but I said, no,

36:11there's not for the same reason that people consume alcohol, because of the, uh, you know, yeah, probably it with tobacco, there is a natural high, there's other herbs that create natural highs, so you can go to the extremes of, of, uh, um, you know, marijuana plants and so on and others that also, and as you say, consuming certain mushrooms, I mean, that's visit, the mushrooms that people consume for psychoactive reasons aren't being consumed, because they're a great gourmet meal. Yeah, I mean, but, but what I'm trying to say is that that might be the answer to your question, Charles, why would people want to inhale smoke? Because obviously, if you are standing around a fire, uh, that, that is not what you want to inhale, and it makes you feel terrible. Um, so that's, obviously, it's not just smoking generally, but, but, but I think that's my point, then there is a tradition, I think particularly in North America, where that's exactly what people did do, they would,

37:14they would design, um, you know, the whole idea of having smoke in the middle of your dwelling, um, it was, that was, that there was a, there was a theory to that, beyond simply having fire, you know, heat and, and uh, something to cook on. It was all said to do with the smoke, but why is my question? Um, maybe I get, I get it with, um, with tobacco fine, but just other forms of wood smoke. I had a friend who went, uh, to, um, I think Peru or somewhere, somewhere near the Amazon jungle, uh, to stay with some shaman or shaman, I don't even answer shaman shaman. I don't, I never know how to say it, uh, for a week, like in, in a mountain somewhere, and part of what they were doing, the rituals and things was exactly this. It was inhaling certain plants that were burning or whatever. Um, and he came back and he said part of the

38:14experience for him was it just allowed him to, uh, think creatively about his existence again. Perhaps it, perhaps it opens, or unlocks, I don't know, I'm, I'm, I have no experience in this, but perhaps there's some sort of creativity or, um, ability to just to relax and, and think about life differently. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, that sounds quite credible because I think, um, I think, uh, alcohol, sort of naturally occurring alcohol, um, in fruit and whatnot, um, I understand that that, um, you know, there's, there's certainly, uh, evidence of that being part of the reason for doing that. It's not just, um, you know, get, get wasted and, and have fun. Yeah. It was to do with unlocking, um, yeah, sort of creative processes. It's never about changing the world. It's always about self-improvement from what, from my experience talking to, to guys who've done this kind of thing. So, I mean,

39:16it's a very, it's a very strange conversation because it's just a compilation and I have no idea what, what, what goes on. But, um, my guess is that it's about self-improvement and self-discovery. Yes. I think so. But, but you know, it's funny where the, um, it's funny where the, well, I mean, to me, it seems like the line gets blurred. So, of course, you know, going to the 1950s and 1960s and more people saw them doing with, um, with hallucinogenic drugs and that kind of thing, supposedly some of them, at least for the same sorts of reasons, but, but it's, I don't know. But that's all official. Where the one says, yeah, exactly. Yes, it is. Yeah. But, but they were in effect off to the same, same sort of results. Um, you know, it's just curious where these things go. I mean, I don't, I don't think I've ever had a conversation with someone who has done this kind of thing and come back and said, you know, I feel worse. It's always been a positive experience

40:17and it's always been an uplifting experience. It's never been destructive. Um, as opposed to what you're talking about, like, artificial drugs and alcohol and the way in which all of that stuff is consumed. I mean, there's a, there's a, I'm seeing a line between sort of natural history and artificial modernity in all I mean. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, um, yeah, we, we live in a very perverse age where we're almost everything harmful is not just legal, but also, um, encouraged. The example I often give for this in, in the United Kingdom, which is absolutely insane. It's that, um, in Scotland, it is perfectly acceptable to drink yourself to death with whiskey, or with something called iron brew, which we might see if we can get you a bottle of when you come over. We have iron brew, yeah. But do you have a hard luck? Um, yeah. Uh, but if you want to

41:21take your chances with raw milk, tough luck because it's, it is not for sale in Scotland. It's, it's illegal. You know, it, it's just, um, it's, it's bananas, but it's a, it's a very, very strong indication of, um, of the way in which the controllers, yeah, if that's what we think of them as won't society search operate. Well, Charles, speaking of, you know, natural highs, nothing, nothing, nothing in my life can top my experience with my little two-year-old yesterday morning when he came, he walked out of his bedroom about six in the morning and I heard it because now he, now he gets up out of his bed and he opens the door on his own. And I heard him and I got up because it was still kind of dark and he didn't make a noise and I walked into the passage and I saw him standing there holding his little cement mixer truck and he had this big smile on his face and he said, hello, daddy. There's nothing that I can explain that can top that high. In that moment,

42:29no drug, nothing, nothing. That is for me, the meaning of life. Because that, that right there teaches me everything about myself and about why I'm here. All right, so I've seen it off here. We see in any way, inspired by what happens, your internet cables to go out and hold the concrete shape of the place where they keep digging it up. So, what are you thinking? But my point is no drugs, no alcohol, nothing required. You know, you can get those highs in your own home from your family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I mean, that's a wonderful thought to bring out and okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But no, this is it, you know, this is where we started. To an extent, isn't it? The idea that it's possible to replicate that through

43:31synthetic means. It just isn't. It will never will be the whole idea of the internet of things and transient things. It's complete and utter what? It's just not workable. So, well done. That's great. No, I was only saying that wasn't bragging or anything. I mean, you've also had the same experience. No, no, no, no, no. What I mean is well done for recognizing that that is, you know, that is the epitome and anything else is a poor relation. That's the significant bit because you see, probably a lot of people sadly have lost sight of that. They don't realize that and they don't get to experience it and that you're going back to your point about what children give back. And if you don't appreciate that in the first place, then my fear would be that you do lose it and what a tragedy. So, you know, it's incumbent upon all of us to make sure that doesn't happen by keeping talking about this, especially to people who are likely to have full have fun

44:34with children. Well, I mean, look, I don't really have a choice at the moment. I think right now, I'm in a very philosophical existential phase because of lack of steep. So, so, so I'm thinking about these things more than I normally would, but I think maybe that's also blessing in disguise. Yeah, but you see that's another one actually fun enough going back to the rituals of sort of expanding the mind. I mean, that lack of steep is is another one. That is something that people have experimented with over time in order to see what what the mind comes up with because there's no, I mean, I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but I've I have certainly had had very strange experiences after periods of being weak for, you know, more than two days at a time and it gets it gets quite bizarre. So, so it is interesting. It's another it's another avenue to consider not all saying you want to extend it any more than necessary at the moment, but, you know, people have over the years. And part of part of that I've actually been writing down

45:37my experience with my kids so that I can come back to it later on. And when I say writing, I don't mean typing on a phone. I mean writing on paper in little books, in little notebooks. And sometimes I page back and I read what I wrote, you know, then and it's it's it's actually very revealing. It's I think it's I think it's something everybody should do if I'm being honest. Everybody should write in a journal. Yeah, I would say that. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, your kids can be learning how to write. Yes, I mean, I've been practice. It sounds so funny, Mike, but I've been practicing cursive. I because I mean, I've been drawing cartoons for my whole life, you know, cartoon takes is a very different, it's a very distinctive kind of writing style. And it becomes part of who I am. And so writing cursive has been like writing a bicycle again, you know, like having to learn everything from scratch. It's but it's a really great experience learning to write

46:38cursive because it's very intentional. And this this this sort of comes back to the the way travel used to be point again, because of course, in order to write and write well, you've got to take your time. So so everything slows down at that point. And maybe that's not a bad thing. Well, I think it's a great thing. So slowing down is a very good thing. Yeah, I think it's very good thing. But I think also the one of the points that that is missed is is the efficiency in doing so. I think I think come and I'm absolutely open to there being disagreement here, but to my mind, I'm either very few or none of the so-called progressions, particularly in communications, have actually made anything more efficient because you will not taking the time in the first

47:39instance and just getting it right. So if you if you commit something to paper, you're writing it down, you get it right. There's no ambiguity. You send that communication in an active sense. It's received by somebody they deal with an active sense. The whole thing is straightforward in a way. I mean, you're absolutely right because you write down your email. You send it. The person that's understanding you spend the next three weeks trying to resolve a problem. That is basically anyone who has even been anywhere near desk job. That is that is your life. That is basically how it works. But but you see now with every passing minute, there's there's yet another platform, let's say, where you can be attacked from the side. It's not just one thing when it was. When there were written communications, you got your letter or whatever. And that was that. It was that simple. You didn't suddenly get hit in the head by something from

48:39the side you weren't expecting to confuse and complicate matters. And again, I forgive me if I've said this before, but I do think it's just a terrific statistic. I was reading a book while I go about the that crazy period, not a tall dissimilar to the crazy period we're going through now with the build up to the outbreak. So they outbreak the start of the first world war in summer 1914. And and of course, in the day where the majority of communications, not in person were conducted by letter. And in London, I don't know how compared, I was out of London in London at that time. There were 14 postal deliveries per day. So the idea that no, you know, oh, sending an email, that's just so quick and easy and it'll be there in seconds. Well, yeah, maybe, but so we're a pile of absolute rubbish from somebody trying to sell you curtains and

49:41business email addresses, you know, so so you have all of that. But but in actual fact, if you just sat down and took a minute longer to just compose your thoughts, write it down, send it and you've got if you need 14 goes a day. I mean, that's amazing to me. That is absolutely amazing. And I think we have we have absolutely regressed a hugely from from there in every sense. But Charles, it gets worse. Uh, our typing and the way in which I don't know what it is, but the way in which the keyboard is designed and that's not even talking about a phone, which has no keyboard. Our typing is generally terrible. I mean, how many times if you're typing an email, how many times do you make a spelling error? I constantly am making spelling errors. And on a phone, it's ridiculous. Every almost every second word is is auto corrected and it's wrong and or and then you typing wrong because you you you have to touch the little square and then you're missing it and you're

50:42doing the one to the left over or whatever. And and then you end up sending a message that's got random letters in it. It's just like the communication seems to just be worse than what it's ever been. And you have to use a spell checker. That's how bad it is. I don't even don't even get me started on emojis. Oh yes. And and and the sort of SMS language, uh, LOL and that kind of thing, you know, and I mean, it it it appears to me that like you're right, Charles. We've gone completely backwards in straightforward communication. But believe me, ask your question, both of you. Give me ask your question. Mike and Charles, when last did you write physically write a letter? Yes, 1979. I write. Did you write one yesterday, Charles? Yeah, I did. Yeah. I can actually letter on like a full a full page. Yes. I don't. What does that sort of have a? What was the context?

51:45I take a letter writing kit with me everywhere I go with proper thick, I love that paper and envelopes and stamps and and a fountain pen. I also have a fountain pen. Where is it? I've got it yesterday. It's not actually my it's I just have a yeah, sort of a kind of travel fountain pen. Yes, I have one too. I think Mike might do it. Is this to say is that that Parker one? Mike, did I copy it from you? I think you have the same one. No, I don't have I don't have that one. No, I can't do it. My nose got quite like it. I was I needed a fine nib. But yeah, I mean, I yeah, that's something that I have. Yes, I never lost. I mean, I do do it less frequently. This one's called a layme L a L a M y. Yes. Yes. I think mine's layme or lemmy as well, whatever. Yeah. And you can buy different nibs, different sizes. Yeah.

52:50Indeed. Yeah. And I think, well, actually, I would say pencil, similarly, is very good for hand writing. Yes. But anywhere anything in between, if it's not a fountain pen, it's not a pencil. I mean, I don't know, personally, I've always struggled to retain form handwriting wise. But the best pen I have is a real Tringard pen, by the way, but it just looks a bit silly. I don't use it in public very much. But this for me is great. I love this because this is what we should be doing more of. I'm just amazed at your beautiful letter. I haven't got that for you. Well, you know, I see a little fun. We go back to going back to Long journeys. I have undertaken a lot of long journeys. I absolutely wonder why I would pass the time on long-range journeys or flights. I would write letters. So, you know, there's always, there's absolutely always

53:52something to do. And I think it's a joy. I think being able to get your thoughts down through the nib of a pen or pencil is, well, you know, it will never stop being satisfying and enjoyable. And it's, you know, it's real. You get, you, you, somebody gets a letter at the end of it. So, it's terrific. And I think I've probably talked about this before, but the other, the other joy as well is being able to use interesting stamps. There are, I mean, I'm afraid the whole Royal Mail and Post Office saga in the United Kingdom is just, is almost too grim to talk about. But, but one of the, one of the bits of, you know, sort of areas of joy that's been completely sabotaged is stamps. First of all, they became self-adhesive. So, you didn't get the pleasure of licking, I guess that's the happy getting that slightly peculiar taste. But, so, you know, we're, when I too flipping stupid to be able to lick the back of the stamp, so you have to, they're all stickers. But also, they took all the, you know, they took all the interesting pictures,

54:57often, they're just, they're just, there's very, very banal thing with a horrid, whatever it's called QR code, I think it is beside it now. But, you can still get stamps printed, you know, with a, with a value of money, value printed on them. And they, and then you just, you know, you have the fun of adding them up to the exorbitant cost of, by the first or second glass stamp. So, yeah, again, it can be, it can be a real work of art. Something I used to do that I do less so now is to paint in watercolor on the front of the envelope. But, it was a simple thing. So, the stamp itself becomes part of a picture, say, whether it's, you know, it could be the back of a lorry or an easel or something, you know, just something rectangular just for, yeah, just for extra amusement. But, just, just a kind of doodle. But, yeah, so there's a, you, you silenced yourself, John. Sorry, I said, I like that you said watercolor because I do exactly the same. This is a watercolor brush that I carry with me. So, there's water in you. Okay. So, there's water in you. So, I don't

55:59have to have water. And then, yeah, and then I take with me everywhere. So, I can also miss it. Yeah. So, I can show you my, my deployable kit. I have my bag next to me. I have, I have, I have my watercolor set with me right now. That's, that's my one. So, you know, I'm not, I'm not blushing it. And then I've got, here's my address book. So, you know, it's all, it's all here. It's not, I'll say everyone, right? Yeah. There we go. That's great. Good. I hope you're bringing it. I'm going to go in the next week. Yeah. Come on. And I have time to recover. But, but Charles, I also carry little watercolor books with me. But this is okay. All right. Yeah. Fortunately, they're a little bit thick because of the paper because there's watercolor paper, but they're great. Yeah. That's fantastic. I got this on TV. Yeah. So, it's cheap. Okay. I know what that is. TV. TV is the Chinese online shop. I was it. I was like, I guess, not much cool.

57:02It's like, it's kind of like Amazon, but like the low quality version. That's debatable. Is that yeah. Yeah. It's probably debatable. I mean, this is, so I don't know what, I don't know what, what, what these kinds of things cost in your side of the world. But here, this, so I'm sure you will agree that art stuff generally is expensive. So watercolor paper, I'm sure you will also agree is generally expensive. This is probably about three times cheaper via TV. And it's just, it's exactly the same quality. Okay. Okay. All right. But now it sounds silly that I'm more selling it. I'm not trying to sell it. It's cheaper. All right. Well, so listen guys, when I record with you next, I'm going to be with you. I'm going to meet up with you guys literally this week. I'm so excited. Yeah. No. Yeah. Well, so weak. I, I, I, I mean, I, I probably said it last week, but I certainly can't believe it's

58:05now this week. It's, yeah, it's great. It's very exciting. And we were talking about, we'll see in a few days. And we were talking about diet. Now, I know what we're eating this weekend. And I can tell you right now that whatever I chose, definitely suits my body. Okay. Well, I don't know what I chose because Charles chose for me. This is probably I chose for you. What suitable for my body? Which is, well, that's the way that if it's, if you can't, whether that's fine. Yeah. No, it'll be fine. I think you'll be all right. So I'm just going to quit the user's opportunity to say for the last time, whoever's listening right now, please go to UKCottom.org and get tickets. If you can't come in person, either in person or for the livestream. Yeah. Hopefully last time. Forget it. Forget that. Yeah. Please do. I'm really looking forward to meeting not just you guys, but everybody else that's going to be there. I know, I know some of the guests who've been on my show are going to be the also's really, really great stuff. Like people coming from all over the world.

59:09Yeah. There they are. And I think, I think the great thing is that over the course of three days, that there was actually a lot of opportunities to talk to a huge number of people. So I think it's not unrealistic thing by the end of the weekend. You will have had a chance to talk to pretty much everybody there, even, even if it's only in passing, but it's, but that is, that is such fun. That is such a fun prospect. And just really sort of heartwarming and it I think it touches on so many of the things we've discussed today. That good human interaction. So it's so important. Dave Roberts here. There you are surrounded by fans, sharing wings, sharing drinks, high-fiving random strangers. Everybody remembers the game. Nobody remembers the guy coughing behind you until a few days later at 2 a.m. You wake up with the fever and your throats on fire. Now what?

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