Killer Mom Trial: Inquiry Expected Into One Holdout Juror Before Day 7 Of Deliberations

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human So what like by Asia-Ratherne or so at least 70% have a phone. I'm Dr. Joy and this is Therapy for Black Girls. We spend our surviving middle school run getting into what's happening inside your kids' brain, the group chat and their friendships and what you can do about it. Your child is not doing this on purpose. That's the kind of perspective we've been pulling from the psychologists and psychiatrists who study this for living. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Self-care September is your reminder to slow down, check in with yourself, get off your phone and maybe ask why am I like this? I'm James Bek, host of the Psychology of your 20s podcast and this month we're helping you make sense of the person that you are becoming from setting boundaries and navigating friendships to understanding anxiety, confidence, relationships and attachment. Sometimes our biggest decisions without us even realizing it aren't driven by what we truly

1:02want but by what will prevent us from feeling lonely or being alone. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're bookshelf and you're for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet and pop culture, with your favorite writers, book talk creators and plenty of over thought opinions. Listen to Pro Society on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering the right on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Pinero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where

2:03I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there folks, it is Friday, September 4th and we are expecting potentially more fireworks right from the start of day 7 of deliberations in the Lindsey,

3:07and Nancy, triple murder trial with that. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. They're coming back to court at 9 but we don't expect them to go right back into the deliberation room and start up again. Got some business to tend to. Yes, this is all according to Lindsey, Nancy's defense attorney Kevin Reddington who when he left the courtroom yesterday announced to reporters that at 9 a.m. There will be an inquiry into the juror. He said that this juror has been identified as the juror the four person was referring to when they passed that note saying that someone was refusing to follow the judges instructions on reasonable doubt. Yes, so when we left, though, Robes, the last we saw an open court yesterday was the judge specifically stating that he was denying Reddington's motion to have this juror removed. We thought that was it and that's how the day wrapped up and day seven deliberations going to start.

4:08Robes, we've only gotten this from Reddington. The court hasn't officially said this yet. I don't think he just BS. So what is exactly going to happen? And that is a huge question because yes, when the judge dismissed the jury yesterday around 4 p.m. He said, we'll see you back here at 9 a.m. to begin deliberation. So it seemed like everything was all systems go and look, Reddington even acknowledged when he made this announcement to reporters that he hoped the inquiry would take place in open court and not in a side bar because he wants the process to be seen by the public. He wants it to be transparent, but it's unclear if it's going to be an open court or an aside bar. And frankly, whether or not it's going to happen at all because we just haven't gotten official word from the court. Why an inquiry, if the judge has already said, I'm not going to dismiss this juror. What are we? Do we need to look into? What do we need to and then to call this person out in open court? Possibly, Robes. Yes, we won't get a chance to see this person, but everybody in that courtroom will.

5:10What's that going to feel like? What's that pressure going to be? This does feel like it's developing into a situation where everybody is looking at this one juror and telling you need to get on board and vote this way or there are others are saying you need to hold firm. Robes, this is getting messier. It is. So it will be fascinating to see what happens at nine a.m. because this jury has been deliberating for about 36 and a half hours over six days. That is a long time. And we don't know if this dynamic has just developed this 11 to one dynamic or if it's been like this the entire time, it will be fascinating. Usually at least one or two a couple of jurors end up talking afterwards, especially in a case like this, there'll be some persuasive journalists who will get at least one or a few of these jurors to talk. And sometimes they're chomping at the bit. Sometimes they can't wait to come out and talk and get deals sometimes that stuff does happen not saying that's going to happen.

6:10Book deals, etc. But if they get the scrutiny that they know they're getting right now, maybe they want to come out and clear things up. Yeah, I think they might not know, but I think they have a pretty good idea of just how big of a deal this is. They've seen even we've been surprised at how much media has just been a costing Kevin Reddington when he walks out of the courtroom. And it's been growing and growing each day. So those are the podiums. He should use a podium. Yeah, he should use a podium. He's actually getting dangerous. Yes, it is. The journalists potentially getting injured or feeling faint in the scuffle scrum, whatever you want to call it, but those jurors, as we now know after that lovely woman, Dawn Light tried to take video of them, they exit from a different area, a different parking lot, but I'm sure they're aware when they pull in about what kind of media attention this case is drawing. And their families are telling them when they go home. Absolutely. And the way it is and nobody's saying that's wrong or could influence how they deliberate, but it could.

7:13But you know what? Also think about this. We're sitting here in New York, glued to the TV fascinated and imagine though if that was your town, your community, Plymouth, Massachusetts. Now that has to be all anybody is talking about. And I also just have to think if they don't reach a conclusion today, there are plenty of different outcomes with the public. And now comes with this jurors fate hanging in the balance, whether or not they have to bring in another juror start to the operations over again, they can continue with the same juror will this juror be more willing to listen to the majority. All of those things are up in the air. But if for some reason there isn't some sort of conclusion at the end of the day today, Labor Day weekend, you're going off with family and friends, you're at barbecues, you're at parties. Everybody's going to tell you that. Sure on the Lindsey Clancy triple murder trial. And they know it. Everybody knows that situation going to be like, you can't tell me that you'd have to like, you'd have to cancel your plans because there'd be no other conversation except for that one.

8:15Oh my God. Because everybody would be telling you what to do. How to vote. What did that's top? And you know, they can't say a word and they I bet they do take that seriously. So it's because this would blow up the whole process at this point. So after committing that much time. Yeah, you have that much emotion that much energy. I would have to think these folks are invested in the outcome. And yeah, they don't want to do anything. Just screw it up at this point after all that time. So Roads yesterday. Yes, we ended up with fireworks at the end of the day. A lot of those fireworks were relayed to us by reporters in the room once they had. And yesterday, how the day wrapped up was them getting a note from the jury that said, one. They didn't say we're deadlock. They said we got one person in here who refuses to follow the judges instruction. So this turned into an hour long situation in the courtroom where he brought in every single juror asked them a question and sent them back. Essentially asked them, can you follow my instructions, ask them under oath. Are they swear yes, that should be the end of it. Kevin Reddington wasn't trying to hear that. No, and he was emphatic. He wanted that juror removed. He felt very passionate about the fact that if the four person sent a note saying this juror would not follow the judges instructions.

9:29That's a clear violation. And he that is the reason why there are alternatives. And I think we there were there are six alternatives. I didn't realize there were that many. So there have been six people who have sat through all of that evidence. And while they were listening to it, they had no idea they weren't actually going to be deliberating. But they have now been in another room sitting there for all these days. And just waiting to see if they too might be included in the deliberation process. So they have options. It's just whether or not the judge will decide to take what does this judge do. Robes this seems wrong. It feels wrong that 11 people can almost they're almost telling the one that you're doing something wrong by not voting with us. That's not how it's supposed to work. I'm just saying it feels that way. So they report it. Yeah, they report that this person isn't following instructions. What does that mean refuses to listen refuses to do what we think this person should be doing refuses. What does that mean if this person has this vote after listening to this trial. That vote should count. That's supposed to be the end of it. All this ropes feels like pressure. They've been called out. Isn't that the whole point though. It's so fascinating. Our concept of what justice is and how juries work.

10:51And really it is the art of negotiating. I mean you you almost never have a unanimous vote from the from the onset. So there is a form of persuasion that goes on in these juror rooms. This is one robes that we are getting a little more insight into while it's happening. I'm sure what you're talking. Yeah, of course. But I think we would all kind of agree that most trials we watch. We think generally juries get it right more than they get it wrong. That's how we feel. That you usually get it right more than they get it wrong. Not all the time in some high profile ones. But roads. It feels like this person is being talked about like they're doing something wrong because you're not letting us get the outcome we want. Yeah, but we don't know maybe this person said something very outrageous and outlandish. I'm saying what it feels like. I'm saying from what we know right now. There is pressure being put on one person because they won't go along with the majority. We don't know why that is. That is this person might genuinely robes. Isn't it possible is genuinely has their conviction about this case. That's okay. It's supposed to be. But now Kevin Reddington is going after this person like they're doing something. Get him off this person off so we can get somebody on the vote the way with the other 11. That feels wrong. Maybe.

12:11That's what it feels like. But that's not what they're saying. They're not saying it's because he won't vote with us. It's because they're saying this person is refusing to follow the instructions. Stay it out loud again. I just don't know what that person said. No, but I'm saying, babe, what you're saying? You can say that all day long, but the point is they're not voting with us. We're not mad at this person because they're over there and just saying, I don't want to follow instructions. No, you're saying it's 11 to 1 and the one is the problem with us. That's what I'm talking about. Robes. Yeah. What 11 people in there want to get the hell out for the weekend? They can decide, man, you ain't doing what we want you to do. Man, you ain't, we don't think you're following the instruction. It feels like they're ganging up on a one. I don't know it. Maybe they're in their calls and hell. I'll leave room for that. But we also have to leave room for robes just frustration and pressure now. And to the point we're talking about get this person off so we can get somebody on that maybe it feels like we want somebody here. We want somebody here who will agree with us so we can go home. Yeah, we just don't know what goes on that route. Part sucks. It feels that way. I hate that because it was my life on the line and I had one person in their willing to not send me to prison.

13:24You want to kick them off because y'all want to go home? No, I want that. That's what I'm saying. It feels like we're building up to that now. And it doesn't feel right. This is the process we're watching our legal system at work. I don't want to see the sausage. Don't want to say has me made just give me the verdict. But don't give me all this mess. But you're right. My fate is a negotiation. If I'm on trial, that is the whole concept behind a jury of 12. And yes, it is fascinating to see how it all works. And I am interested in seeing how the sausage is made. I cannot wait to hear from these jurors when they come out. I can't wait to hear what was actually going on for all of these six days. And now yes, a seventh day. I can't wait. Just give me the sausage, man. I don't want to see the process. I don't want to see it. But what'd you say? I keep. I can't ask you seven times this morning. What's the official 3622? I believe is what it is. So we're talking about 36 and a half hours of negotiation. Now Rose, we first started this very early on after a couple days. We started giving comparisons to this trial with this long, this trial with this long.

14:35We thought it would never get as close to some of the longer deliberation times. Stay here folks. We will tell you just how close this case is now coming to be one of the longest deliberations we've seen in some of the highest profile cases. By age, a rather than or so, at least 70% have a phone. Middle school is a different world than the one we grew up in. I'm Dr. Joy and this is therapy for black girls. We spent real time on it in our surviving middle school run, bringing in a child psychologist and a psychiatrist who's raising two black girls of his own to talk about what's really going on with our kids right now. So it's literally physiological and neurological and psychological chaos happening all this in time. We got into group chats and gaming, friendships and bullying and how to tell the difference between healthy monitoring and the kind of surveillance that a road's trust. You're belonging. You could think of belonging as I can be myself and I can still be accepted. And then they're fitting in. Spitting in says I have to change who I am in order to avoid rejection.

15:42Then we turn the conversation toward the fathers sitting down with therapists, cure gains on black fatherhood and what it means to raise a daughter through this stage. You don't have more shorts so you can't do flips. You have on the dress you have across your legs. That's the range of this run from screen time to identity to the fathers doing the work at home. How to get off her device. But the reality is there's a lot of life out there that we don't want you as your adults in the life to miss out on. This has been our surviving middle school run brought to you by the people who spend their careers thinking about exactly this. I'm Dr. Joy. Listen to therapy for black girls on the I heart radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Self-care September is here, which means it's time to rethink what self-care actually means. Yes, self-care can be a long walk. It can be in everything shower. It can be putting your phone on do not disturb. But sometimes it's actually about sitting with the uncomfortable stuff and understanding your patterns, your boundaries. Finally figuring out why you keep doing things that you swore you would never do again.

16:42I'm Gemma Speg, the host of the psychology of your 20s podcast. And each week we unpack the psychology behind the experiences that shape your 20s. From relationships and friendships to money, anxiety, confidence, attachment, just becoming more comfortable with who you are. Unlike the quarter life crisis, which is depicted as the collapse, the quarter life reinvention is the expansion and the course of something when we develop the ability to be happy by ourselves. Nobody else can take that from you. So this self-care September, don't just take care of yourself. Get to know yourself as well. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or whatever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're a four-year page or equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Pro's Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

17:47I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. So like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is the Trojan horse, whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro's Society on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Benieto and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita trading the pity for possibility.

18:49Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us, not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. You just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

19:50I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. I shouldn't watch before I got to listening to streaming you know how my camera was chiming up like that. I don't think I can feel it anymore but you can't. When I say that I get to hear and tell I couldn't hear that voice and I start crying that I don't really understand it anymore. And you'll feel it tell me. I enjoyed the moment of my'est inwardly És сх ikke le mod öl- Pi�� du warmed Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. Yes, we will round probably at least 37, 38 hours of deliberations here for this jury if you consider the fact that well, they go into deliberations sometime after this alleged inquiry happens. We have no long, how long? We have no idea how long is going to take. We have no idea if the inquiry is happening, how long the inquiry will take, if it happens

20:55in public court or if it happens or I say open court or if it happens in a sidebar and then we don't know at what point the jury will then be allowed to deliberate with said juror or a new juror. Unclear. And again, is there a requirement, babe, once you've thrown a new juror in there, can the new one come in and say, hey, how y'all vote? You know what? I'm with that. Let's get out of here. Can you do that? Are you required? There's no minimum amount of time. Oh no, they can spend 30 minutes and do one vote. Who knows? I mean, I imagine those jurors, those alternate jurors already know what their vote is. They've sat through all the evidence. Oh, yeah. So they already know. So they would probably initially just say, hey, what's your vote? And then it could be, look, that they all agree and we could get out of here right away. There's just so many different possible scenarios, no way of knowing. That's crazy. But man, it's Friday and it's Labor Day weekend. And so yes, there is going to be some just inherent pressure for that reason alone. Well, then did he up against the 4th July, right?

21:57Yes. They got out of there and they did. Yes, they did. Was that the day before the weekend? I believe it was. Damn. Okay. So here we go. So maybe we'll see that I didn't think, Grobes, the one we kept comparing to Andrea Yates. This was the comparable trial. So many people, oh, how long did that one go? Yeah, it went 12 hours over three days. Yeah. That seems a lot more reasonable. Long, long pass that now. The one that I think I didn't realize that Bill Cosby's trial took that long, six days but 52 hours. So they were willing to put in longer days in this jury. I was surprised honestly yesterday after that note and after all of that drama to send them back to the deliberations to deliberations. And they only stayed in there for like 20, 30 minutes. Like I would have, then it must have meant that that dude didn't or I say dude, we don't know if it's a woman or a man. That's ridiculous. More likely statistically it's a woman, but I don't know why I think it's a man. That's so funny. Oh my goodness. Why? I don't know. It seems like something a man would do.

23:01What? Stick to his opinion? That's something a woman would do. That's so funny. I don't know why. Not be pressured by anybody. I don't know. Obviously I just think a woman would cave more like okay, I'll just go with the group. Oh, yeah. And then with other women for a one woman to stand out against the other women and the men, that seems like more like a man thing to do. Okay, stay with me for a while. Now you've young fascinated. So it's possible. There are nine women and two men going against one man. Yes. Or there are eight women and three men going against one woman. That seems, I mean, is that the scenario? Yeah, and I could be so wrong. I fully, I don't know why my gut tells me it's a man who's the holdout. That's amazing. Your gut tells you it's a woman? I don't know. Overwhelmingly though, there is going to be a collection. A majority of women are making their case against this one person. So it's eight or nine women.

24:02Yeah, exactly. That's a lot to go against. And we tend to, like, I don't know, like yes, there can be infighting initially, but I feel like we tend to coalesce. I don't know. I could be wrong. I ask you this last thing, and I did not just plan to discuss this with you. What? Who is more likely to cave to the pressure of eight or nine women, a man or a woman? Another woman. Another woman is more likely to cave. I see what I think. That's why I think it's a man. It's a man in there. That's why I think it's a man. But I, like, look, I could be so wrong. It's just, I don't know. Do you have a feeling? Now that you're talking about this, I'm like, it's a man. Errogant, so I ain't going to listen. You can't tell me nothing. Exactly. Or somebody's sitting there, ways an older person perhaps. That was so. That was my other thing. It was, I either think it's a man or it's somebody who is older. Do we have a racial breakdown? I saw it somewhere. I remember it. I saw someone say that they're mostly white. That's all I got. Mostly white. Look, this is the Massachusetts Boston area.

25:02It's predominantly white, Italian, Catholic. That is the majority of the makeup of that area, demographically speaking. But I do think it's either someone who is older or it's a man. It's going to be a young black woman. Right. What the hell? Yeah, or it's somebody who has a very different experience or... That's so interesting. We could've done it. Like lens that they're looking through. We could've done a whole episode of that. That is fascinating to think. Who is it? Which one is it more like me? I know that person. What kind of a person, yeah, it feels so strongly and holds firm. Like I'm telling you, I feel like that's why you might feel so protective of this person because if there were to be a holdout, you would be that person and you would hang a jury if you disagreed. You could not be convinced. If I felt that way. If I was Billy. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying if you felt very strongly in your beliefs, you're not somebody who would go over to the other side. I absolutely would. I think I could be convinced. I'm like, okay. You've heard it from me a million times. I would be sitting in the corner of the room.

26:03I could do this all day. Exactly. I could do this all day. So you feel it's funny how fiercely, passionately you are protecting this person's right to be different. Yes. Because that's the system. It's the system. And the system also allows for a parent pressure to be applied. But that's what I'm saying. Okay, all of that. We're in 100% on par with. I'm saying a narrative is now developing. Let's suggest they are wrong in what they believe that we need somebody on there who is in line with the rest. We need somebody on there. It's almost like politics. We all have to be in line in this room. If not, kick you out and talk about you. That's the part. There's a narrative that's developing. That suggests this person is something beyond just having an opinion. Yeah. Oh yeah. What Charles Manson? 42 hours. Ronnie Keene cops.

27:04That was seven days. 40 plus hours of deliberations. The Karen Reed trial. Again, we've been talking about this one rope. That was 22 hours over five days. I didn't think there was a chance this jury was going to get close to the Michael Jackson jury. It's surpassed 32 hours seven days. Yeah. So we shall see what the final count is. And we can only hope that maybe today is the day. There is some sort of outcome. Otherwise, we got to wait till Tuesday. And those poor jurors got to cancel all their barbecue plans. You have me fascinated now by whether it's a man or a man. I didn't think about it before we started. Now this is all the dumb of mine. Folks, we are keeping an eye. Keeping an eye on our feed. We will be watching at 9 o'clock. We'll update you when that news comes. But we appreciate you always sticking with us. I'm T.J. That's ropes. We will talk to you very soon. So would like to buy Asia Rather and our soul, at least 70% have a phone.

28:04I'm Dr. Joy. And this is therapy for black girls. We spend our surviving middle school run getting into what's happening inside your kids brain, the group chat, and their friendships, and what you can do about it. Your child is not doing this on purpose. That's the kind of perspective we've been pulling from the psychologists and psychiatrists who study this for a living. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHAR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Self-care September is your reminder to slow down, check in with yourself, get off your phone, and maybe ask why am I like this? I'm Gemma Spek, host of the Psychology of your 20s podcast. And this month we're helping you make sense of the person that you are becoming, from setting boundaries and navigating friendships, to understanding anxiety, confidence, relationships, and attachment. Sometimes our biggest decisions, without us even realizing it, aren't driven by what we truly want, but by what will prevent us from feeling lonely or being alone. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the IHAR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

29:08you get your podcast. I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHAR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a bookshelf and you're a for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture. With your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions. Yeah, I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed. Listen to pro society on the IHAR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

30:11podcasts. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Pinero, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the IHAR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHAR podcast. Guaranteed Human.