Likeability Expert: Stop Doing This, It’s Why People Quietly Avoid You! | Vanessa Van Edwards

0:00Running a small business can feel a lot like being alone at sea and too often you're not steering the ship yourself. You're getting dragged into the pool of the admin, things like offer letters, onboarding, wages, payroll, filing taxes and health insurance. And that's where our sponsor, Gusto, helped. They helped you break free of all of this clutter and all of this admin work and all of this headache. Gusto is an online payroll and benefits software but for small businesses just like some of you. It's an all in one remote, friendly and incredibly easy to use platform so that you can pay higher on board and support your team from anywhere in the world. That way you can channel all of your energy into growing your business rather than just keeping your head above water which is a feeling I know very very well. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash diary and get three months free when you run out your first payroll through Gusto. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash diary. That's gusto.com slash diary. How do you know you talk too much? So first thing is non-verbal cues. Someone is checking out.

1:01If they are opening their mouth, is it to say something? Like, hall like the open fish? And that's a subtle cue that you talk too much. Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck that's me? Yes. And there was a recent study when they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much. Well, I have a do you talk too much tests? So there's five questions here and if you answer more than three times, you're probably an overtalker. Yeah. Because my next question is like, which one's worse over talking around or talking? Well, I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversation with and I found that it's the vehicle to get what you want. And I'm a recovering aqua person and I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. But I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. And because we're having less conversations, one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And I now more than ever am sending nine minute voice notes to my friends. But a voice note, it's the most selfish form of conversation. But in this age of technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. But there's a blueprint to good conversation. And once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. For example,

2:02we devise three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. And the best conversation starter was actually what was the highlight of your day because the moment we ask how are you? What do you do? They ran out of things to talk about. But the worst question in history of conversations is what's the ****? But I also have a formula to immediately bypass that small talk. Also, I'll be pretty doring to charisma. But also there are five archetypes. This is going to impact getting our promotion and finding your soulmate. We're going to go through all of them. But one of the ways to get out of the bad conversation without a family. Well, we tend to focus a lot on the first impression, but we don't really think about the end. But it's all really important. And I discovered this framework. So guys, I've got a favor to ask before this episode begins. The algorithm, if you follow a show, deliver you the best episodes from that show very prominently in your feed. So when we have our best episodes on this show, the most shared episodes, the most rated episodes, I would love you to know. And the simple way for you to know that is to hit that follow button. But also, it's the simple, easy, free thing that you can do to help us make this show better.

3:02I would be hugely grateful if you could take a minute on the app you're listening to this one right now and hit that follow button. Thank you so, so, so much. Vanessa Van Edwards. On page five of your new book, Conversations, you talk about how we're in a connection crisis. And you say that conversations are getting harder, more awkward and less satisfying. At some level, I feel that too. My question to you is, why did you choose to write this book based on, you know, everything you could have written about everything we've talked about before, why is this book needed at this time? People who are investing in conversation skills right now are creating career insurance. We like to work with people who are great at conversation. We like to be with people who are great at conversation. We like to date people who are good at conversation. And in this age of tremendous technological change, the people who are masterful at conversation are going to have an advantage. So I wrote this right now because we are slowly losing our

4:07ability to connect. And I think this is the last generation that will learn about conversation via human. I think the next generations will be talking to technology more than they talk to humans. Is it possible to be great at conversation? And if I become great at conversation through what we're about to talk about today, what is the advantage that you're speaking about there? What advantage will I experience in my life for everybody listening now? What advantage will they see in their life relative to where they are now? Conversation is the vehicle to get what you want. If you want a promotion and you can chat with your boss where they connect with you, you're more likely to be thought of for that promotion. If you want to meet your soulmate, you have to have deep connected meaningful conversation to truly get to know each other. If you are lonely, finding friends that are actually fulfilling and give you the joy of conversation is going to give you longevity boost. I think that the mistake that we have made is we think of conversation is extra. We put it second. I know leaders focus on this a lot where they're focused

5:11so much on their idea, on their technology, on their business, but they forget about the human element. I think we have to start thinking about conversation almost like going to the gym. We focused a lot on our physical health, but our social health is critical to our emotional health. If we are doing conversation reps, if we can truly become good at conversation, conversation I think is a skill to learn. I don't think you're born with it or you're not. I think you can learn to be good at conversation and it's the one skill that keeps on giving. Do people tend to know if they're good or bad at conversation? Are there symptoms, one experiences, when they're not good at conversation? Are they aware of that? Yes. There is symptoms of being a bad conversationalist. By the way, I should back up as I'm a recovering awkward person and I really struggled with bad conversation for a long time. I realized it was because I was asking the wrong questions and I was approaching conversation the wrong way. The wrong way to approach conversation is trying to impress not discover. If you're trying to impress people, conversation becomes performative and that is so deeply

6:15unfulfilling, right? That is when small talk becomes soul-crushing. I have spent the last 20 years studying master conversationalists. Master conversationalists, they live differently in the world. I only know this because I wasn't one for a long time. They are not only more joyous, but they're also more confident. They're more authentically assertive. They get more energy from interactions with whether they're an introvert or extrovert because their conversations are giving them energy not taking energy. The symptom of bad conversation, and I hate to give someone a label being a bad conversation list, an exhausted conversationalist, is you dread it. Dread is a really important emotion. If you open your calendar and you see only dread or you feel only dread, there's something wrong. Conversation like gives us energy. You feel dread in social interactions. You feel overwhelmed when you're in conversation. If you're in conversation and you're social overthinking, you cannot turn your brain off. All you're worried about is what you're going to say next. It's actually just probably have a look at the mechanics of conversation. There's a blueprint to good

7:19conversation. We're going to talk about it. Once you know the blueprint, it becomes easier. And the last symptom of bad conversation is that you leave feeling misunderstood. You leave feeling like I was the worst version of myself or I wasn't able to be my best self. I think really good conversation list. People leave conversation with them thinking, wow, after talking to you, I feel like I understand myself better. And that's a very different way of thinking about, oh, I want to impress somebody. So how long have you spent doing the research, but feeds into what we're going to talk about today and feeds into this new book? Okay, so accidentally, I've been doing research for this my whole life because I was very bad at conversation for 20 years. Then 20 years ago, I realized that there are these hidden blueprints behind our interactions. I wasn't quite sure what they were, but I could see that very good conversation list. They were following some kind of plan. Then eight years ago, this is when the real research began. And it started with an experiment. I call it my speed networking experiment. This fundamentally changed the way I think about conversations. Here's what we did. I knew there was

8:19some secret the conversation was had. And I was like, I'm going to find it. So we devised three different speed networking experiments with 500 speed networkers. We brought them in these rooms, and we had cameras set up in all four corners of the room because good conversation looks different. Really good conversation. Do you ever like, you know, of course. Out of rest ones. Yeah, yeah. They're so good. Are they having a bad day? So, you know, a good conversation is a lot of gestures, a lot of leaning. It has that high energy. You see a lot of vocal charisma. The volume goes up. In a bad conversation, it sort of sounds like this. I'm a him. How is that? I'm nose. Like it has like very low energy, like apologetic facial expressions, like low volume. Then I assigned these networkers six conversation chargers. Now, I picked these conversation charges. I'm going to tell you what they are very carefully. Three of them, I thought could do really well. And three of them, I wasn't sure about. I wanted to see. We gave them these six conversation chargers and we asked them after each timed conversation to rate the quality of it. One being that was the worst, most awkward conversation I've ever had

9:25to five being that was the best conversation I ever had. I want to marry this person or I want to connect with them on LinkedIn. Then we took all these ratings and we ranked them. And there were clear winners and clear losers. The losers, the conversations that produced the worst connection, the most awkwardness were last choice. I want to guess what last choice was. Last. In terms of an opener. In terms of just a question. A typical question you asked. How were you? Number five, that was the fifth worst. Very close to the bottom. Sixth was something about the weather. What do you do? What do you do? That was the worst. The worst. Okay. Why? So these last two, how are you and what do you do? They're very socially scripted. Right? The moment we ask those questions, our brain goes into autopilot. So there's a lack, it aids more of a performance. There's a lack of like excitement in the conversation. And they ran out of things to talk about. They're fact-based questions. And this is the trap of what we'll call level one conversation, which is you are trapped in fact. Where are you from? Got any kids married? The facts are dead ends. Right? So they're it's very hard for someone to break out

10:29of that fact because they're stuck in that social that social script. The best conversation starter was actually a sneaker. I was like, what's interesting that this one did best by lot. It was what was the highlight of your day? Now what this question does psychologically? Sounds casual. First of all, it's not too deep. A mistake that extroverts can make is they ask too deep to question too quickly. Right? They're like, what is your greatest goal in life? And you're like, I don't know you. Right? So it's not too deep, but it's a subtle replacement for how are you? You're actually asking the other person's brain to search for optimism. You're literally inviting their brain to think like, what was good? And then they think, oh, highlight of my day. So when we just broke autopilot, the most the moment someone goes, oh! And they're thinking for the first time, their brain goes, oh, we get to do something new. So they got to think of something new and it was immediate. It wasn't like a too big of a question. The second question was, have anything exciting you're working on? This is kind of a subtle replacement for what do you do? Right? If someone likes what they do, they're going to talk about it,

11:31but they're going to reframe it in something exciting. And if someone isn't defined by what they do, they're going to share something better. The third question, very, very simple, was, do have any fun plans coming up? These questions, the three first three, are literally searching for good. You're inviting other person to only think about good things and we're juicing excitement for other parts of their life. Now the fourth question, the middle one, almost broke my data. And this is where things really got interesting for me as a researcher. This fourth question, people either loved it or they hated it. They either gave it a five that was like the most connective thing I felt all week or a zero. And a zero wasn't even an option on my scale. It was the question, what's your story? Now what's your story? Have you ever been asked that question, by the way? Derivatives of that question. Okay. So extroverts tend to default to that question because they want to go a little bit deeper. But actually that is a level three question.

12:34It is way too advanced for someone who's introverted or someone who has never framed their story that quickly. They're immediately put into cortisol. They're immediately put into fight or flight. They're like, what's my story? How can I get that to you so quickly? So you're by accident putting them into conversational fear. This is when I realized there's a hierarchy. We have to move through our conversations with different levels. This is why we have this. So if anyone that can't see, because you're listening on Apple musicals, Spotify, whatever, we have a three tier little stage in front of us. T1, tier two, tier three. What are these three tiers? Okay. So Dr. Dan McAdams found that conversation is actually not as fluid as we would like to think. But actually when we're trying to connect with someone else, we are trying to move through three distinct levels. Level one is called general traits. This is why in those first few minutes, you're basically trying to Google fact check someone. Where are you from? What do you do? Married. Where do you live in a lit? You're trying to ask all those questions because there's a

13:37sort of social hierarchy. Our brain processes social facts from least intimate to most intimate. So we cannot get to know someone on their deepest dreams and worries if we don't know the basic facts about them. So that is why we often follow to that trap of those fact-based questions. The key here is that really good level one question is taking those facts but adding story, that adding emotion. So the best way to do level one better is you're swapping out those bad questions. How are you? What do you do with looking for a story? I truly believe a fact is a stop sign, a story is a doorway. Give me an example of both. Okay. So one of them we're actually going to we can place it on here is what's your personal passion project? Okay. Now what's your personal passion project is actually a hunt for stories, right? And would you open with that? Is that what you're saying or is it doesn't really matter? It has to come. It can come in the first few minutes. Now I probably wouldn't walk into a room and be like what's your personal passion products even?

14:39Right. It's a little bit much. We have to do our basic first impression and we can talk about you know first 10 words in a little bit but as an open or question it's better than how are you? And I have to pause here and say everything I'm going to share takes a little bit of conversational courage. It's really safe to ask how are you? It's really safe to ask what do you do but if you want to be memorable, if you want to actually spark connection, those won't serve you. So it does take a little bit of courage to ask this but the answers you're going to get are incredibly interesting. You're going to get stories. You're going to get hinted values. If you want to know if they're married or have kids, they probably will tell you by accident. So it's like a hunt for stories same with, right? I mentioned this one in the study so working on anything exciting these days. This is again one of my favorite swap questions because you're hunting for something good. Now when I think about conversation in level one, you're trying to gift someone a chemical cocktail a little bit. And I think in level one, these two questions are doing a lot of heavy lifting. They are now competing with your feed. I went to a PTA meeting recently and those are torture if

15:45you've ever been to one. Oh, a parent teacher meeting. Okay. Right. So a bunch of other parents in the room and I wanted to meet other moms because I just moved across the country to try to meet more people and I was like excited. I was like, okay, I'm going to meet more moms. Here we go and I walk in the room and everyone's scrolling. Everyone's on their feed. And I realized, wow, conversation now is not just about a way for me to make friends. It actually has to compete with that feed. I have to make my questions and my answers so dopamine worthy that they're actually going to beat that feed. Otherwise, they're going to go right back to their phone. That is why these have to do more lifting because if I want to compete with the feed, I have to produce dopamine, a little bit of excitement, a little bit of motivation. I also have to create what I would call, forgive me for this word, but conversational confetti. This is like, we got to, we got to lift a little bit more in our conversations because otherwise, someone's going to go right back to scrolling. Their brain is somewhere else. Their brain is in their email list or their brain is on their feed.

16:48In this research, when I was studying amazing conversationalists, one of the one people I studied is Howard Stern. However you feel about Howard Stern, he is a master conversationist. I mean, he can carry on long, very interesting. He gets people to say things that I could never imagine. So I analyzed thousands of transcripts of his interviews. I found one pattern. He does a very good job of creating information gaps. He'll say, what's the weirdest thing you've ever done? Or he'll say, the most surprising thing that happened to me yesterday, you want to hear what it was? And your brain doesn't like not knowing. So when it hears the most surprising, the weirdest, the biggest, the worst, the most embarrassing, the brain creates this gap. This is information gap where the brain is like, I have to know what is the weirdest thing. So also what happens with these kinds of questions is we're creating these little information gaps and actually saying and using a conversation, these phrases is a way that we can create more intrigue and interest.

17:48I know that sounds like, what? But think about this. If something crazy happened to you yesterday and you walk into dinner and you're like, guys, the craziest thing happened to me yesterday, everyone's like, phone's down. Right? Now I couldn't say something boring. I couldn't be like, I was stuck in traffic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one of you. Funny. But I think that looking for opportunities to create that little bit of conversational convent, they come up with questions like this. This is the last one. So have any fun plans coming up? No. The reason why this one is important and I agonized over this over this third question, because there's three questions for each level is have any fun plans coming up is a subtle way to bring up potential shared future. Psychologically speaking, we bond with someone when we feel like we could do something fun with them or they're doing something fun that I would also like to do. I think that part of these questions is being known for asking better questions, like being known for searching for hunting or hunting for excitement. So what will happen is with people who know you

18:49at work or your work friends or outside of work friends is they'll bring me things to you. They know that you're going to ask out personal passions. So next time you get to say, hey, last time we were talking, you mentioned xyz. How's that going? So they also become your callbacks. They make conversation easier later. Everybody's starting from a remarkably different place here, aren't they? In terms of both skill, but also like will. Do you know the energy and like willing to do it? I think there'll be a lot of one might say introverts listening right now, but just think what's the fucking point? Like, you know, I don't like people anyway and it's so much energy and I've got to ask these questions and pretend to be interested. This is going to drain me. Oh my gosh. I agree and two things can be true. It's very exhausting in the sense of your trying, right? Like we're putting energy into conversation, but it's also exhausting to have really shallow small talk. I find it exhausting to stand at an event or be smoothing with people backstage and be talking about nothing. Do you want to have very boring,

19:52predictable conversation where you're less memorable and they're less memorable and you're just waiting to get home to Netflix? That's one heart. That's not what I would choose. Or do we choose the heart of, I'm going to break a script, right? I'm going to try to do level one better. I'm going to try to trigger a little bit of dopamine. I'm going to try to learn something that I didn't know before, which is going to maybe just maybe bring joy. If you get a really great answer, by the way, there's two sides of conversation talking and asking. I think even for those introverts, they have really, really big goals in their life that they care about. So I think connecting this level one stuff to those high, to the highest goals is like critical for the behavior to occur and for it to net out in the incentive equation has been worthwhile. Yes. Because if you can tell me how asking having a flop fun plans coming up is going to help me become a better CEO or founder or whoever I want to be, father, man, daughter, whatever, then I'm in. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about founders and CEOs specifically. There is a mistaken belief and I work with a lot of companies with a lot

20:57of founders. They believe that conversation is anti-productive. They worry, though, I don't know if I want my employees to talk a lot. I can't waste time on small talk. The research shows the opposite. And also logically, if you think this through, connected people collaborate better, engaged employees work better together. We are more productive when we feel good. And in fact, the key word here is friction. When you have a company that has a lot of communication friction, you have employees who doubt themselves. You don't have psychological safety. They have a really hard time brainstorming. You have people who withhold information. You have more information silos. Communication friction cost companies money. And so if you have a community of employees who have very easy level one, they don't need to get to level three. You don't need to get to level three with everyone in your company. You don't need to get to level three with your Uber driver. But if you

21:57have a really easy, small talk, easy banter, or someone knows, oh, yeah, I know exactly what their personal passion project is. I know who they are. I know what fun plans are coming up. The first five minutes of your meeting becomes not only frictionless, but actually pleasurable. People show up on time. People are more productive. People want to be there because they actually want to connect and collaborate with their, and this is remote or in person, because they know they have these very loose ties and loose ties actually make us more productive. And so we are looking for frictionless communication. And that happens at level one. In fact, work conversations should be really ideal level ones. Is this in part also the fastest way to get to connection? Yes. Because these CEOs or founders, or busy people generally, are very time poor. For sure. So they don't have 30 minutes to move their way to connection. But are you saying that? These are shortcuts. Okay. Right. So like, it's way worse for a CEO to be like, shoot, I've been told I better be warmer. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of, like most of my students are brilliant, very talented, very smart,

22:58but a little awkward and want to get it done. Right. They're much more focused on the confidence in the warmth. So they try to do warmth because they, they feel like they should. And they're like, how are those kids? And then it's like a social script. Good. Or how are you? Good busy, busy, but good. And they're like, we're not working. It was anti productive. No, I'd rather you skip ahead, make this level quick and good. Right. So like the team intervention that I encourage every virtual or in person team to do is once a week at the start of a meeting, start with tell me something good. Very, very quickly. Everyone goes around very quickly and they share one win or something good. It can be small. It can be big. That can take less than three minutes, less than five minutes, putting how big your team is. We do it on our Tuesday team calls at my team. What it does is you've just created a safe, very contained space for good level one. It's only good. So otherwise, otherwise people will accidentally complain, right? They'll be the other weather traffic, right? But you're putting a frame around that it's good. You're time boxing it. Everyone goes around really quickly. But you're very quickly creating these these team connections. So creating time in your

24:03meetings, but also in your culture to ask slightly better questions. All of these level one things have one thing in common, which is they provoke a positive search and response. Yes. So that's really the crux of level one. It's just a question that's producing a positive. Sorry. It's not always positive. I do believe in toxic positivity and toxic positivity can kill a conversational vibe very quickly. What we're actually looking for is emotion and story. Right. So I might say, and by the way, my interest, I love my interest, they always say, well, what if someone says they don't? They ask them, what's your personal passion project? And they say, I don't have one. Well, great. What an opportunity. If someone doesn't have a personal passion project, or they're going through a hard time, they're having a bad day, you have an opportunity to connect even better. So sometimes it doesn't have to be positive. You're looking for any kind of real emotion. So then someone says, you know what? I've been really going through a hard time, and you know, I haven't had much energy to work on personal passion these days. And then you have

25:06the choice. You can say, wow, is there anything I can do to help? Or you can say, do you want to talk about it? So it's not always positive. It's looking for authentic emotions and ideally story. And this is another one of the other master conversationalist I study, who is excellent at level one is Jerry Seinfeld. So Jerry Seinfeld has a little conversational trick. Right. This is in level one of the book, which is he often meets people after his event. And they're so star struck by him. They don't know what to say. And conversation is really awkward. He has a little awkward to me. He's developed a trick. And this works really well for CEOs and introverts, which is ask a numbers-based question. So instead of how are you? You know, where do you live? So how long have you two been together? And then if it's 38 years, you say, oh, what's been the highlight of your 38 years? If it's really short, oh, you're in the honeymoon phase. What's the best part? So it's a numbers question. And this works really well for introverts as well as because it's fact-based. So it's like an opener. And then usually from there, it's a jumping off point to a story. So it's not that level

26:09one should always be positive. That's great if it can be. But practically speaking, it actually more is that there's a small piece, a small emotion or a small story. Okay. So the other day I was in Las Vegas and I was doing this sort of like step and repeat me in great things after the event. And people come up and they're kind of ushering them through very quickly. So I always want to, you know, say something to learn a little bit about a person in that time. What would you recommend? And this might be applicable for networking generally. What would you recommend? Okay, so I always whenever after speaking about book signing, I say, what was your favorite part? Or what did you learn the most? So I immediately ask a question that I want them to take home with them. And that's actually level two, which we can skip it. We're not going to skip two of our head. But what have you always wanted to learn or what are you learning is actually going to level two. So you can ask it, especially if someone's just spent an hour listening to you. What's the difference? Do you level one and level two? Okay. Oh, sorry. Yes, we skipped a hat. Okay. So we'll put a pin in this. One thing I want to say about that question is, I read this framework. I read about Dan McKenzie framework and I was doing this conversation research. And then I got invited to

27:11a party. One of the weirdest parties I've ever been invited to. And I get in and they tell me to take off my shoes. So I'm committed. Right. I can't leave. Yeah. And then they go, guess what? We have a rule for this party. I'm like, what? They're like, you cannot talk about what you do. Now, this was a party of, I think, very other successful people. And all of us are like, what? Because I don't mind you, but I'm pretty defined by what I do. I talk about, I love it. So I start to panic because I'm like, what do you even talk about if you don't talk about that? Because so many of our conversations, you're into work. And so I had to, one, my brain was flipped off of autopilot immediately. And I had to get more creative with my questions. And I had to also think that I want, I was like, I'm just going to discover things about them. I'm going to try to figure out what they do by not asking. And that was at a home moment of, we should treat level one, these, these three bottom questions as a treasure hunt. But if you're going into it looking for some kind of conversational gold, your questions have much different intention. And especially what I ended

28:16up asking was, what do you talk about when you don't talk about work? Which was sort of this freedom, it gave us this freedom and conversation where I want to give everyone permission that really good conversation does not have to stick to the same old boring topics. It does not have to be what you do. It can be about anything that is engaging you or exciting you in that moment. That is level one, level two. So we had dental traits. We must start there. We cannot skip too quickly to level two. Level two is called personal concerns. Personal concerns is where we begin to connect deeply. This is our motivations, our goals, our values, our worries. And I'm assuming you do level two, once you've got past level one connection. Exactly. So this is us going deeper, we're going deeper. Exactly. Or leveling up as you wish, right? As you wish. So the mistake traps people make is they skip level one. They try to go too deep, quickly and people feel like it's invasive, right? Especially when you're like, whoa, so down, we can feel like an interrogation. So we must know those basics first. As long as we do them better, we don't do them in autopilot

29:20way. Level two is when you start to understand what motivates someone. The kind of mental trick that I use is you know you're on level two with someone if you know what gets them up in the morning, like what goal is driving them all day, but you also know what keeps them up at night. What worries them? I, you know, I encourage people as they're reading like think of the five people you interact with most and place them on a level. Like do you only know the basic facts about them? Are you all the way level three, which we're going to get to? It's sometimes helpful. You'll notice patterns. Like I don't know about you, but I love level two. Like I want to get through level one as quickly as possible. I want to get to your motivations. I want to get to your secret side hustle. I want to get to your dreams and passions. I want to know what keeps you up at night, but I can sometimes jump too fast. Level two is about making someone feel heard and understood. And this is different than discovering treasure. And the biggest skill that we can do in level two is what I call dream building. So dream building is everyone has like a secret desire, a secret dream, a secret side hustle,

30:22a secret passion. Can you be there and help them uncover it? That's the goal of level two. So give me an example of dream building. Okay, so before we started, I said to you, I have a new goal, right? Like I'm pitching a TV show. That's like my secret side hustle. That's level two for me. It's something that I've been working on secretly and quietly. And if we were at lunch, we would have I would have told you all about it. We would double clicked on it. So like that's an example of one. Another example to think about is what is someone daydream about? Right? Like what is what is occupying their mind in a good way? The other way that I a framework that I give for folks is a pet or pest projects. So what is someone's pet project? Like a pet at home, you kind of think about it, you dream about it, you hope about it. Like what is someone hoping to achieve or find or do? And what is their pest project? Like a pest in the attic, it worries you. You wonder like how can I get rid of that pest? How can I eradicate it? And they want help with it, but they're too afraid to ask. Pest projects have a lot of shame. On level two, people have to feel safe enough to expose what

31:27they feel shame about. But pet projects, the things they love have a lot of pride. And so you're trying to figure out in conversation, could you let someone feel safe enough to share either one? And are there questions that evoke dream building? Yes. Okay, so what have you always wanted to learn as an interesting question because it triggers growth mindset. Right? So growth mindset is when someone believes they can change themselves, change who they are, change their trajectory, learn something new. So we like this question because you're asking, are you willing to grow with me? What have you always wanted to learn? The other easy one is what is your biggest goal right now? So what is your biggest goal right now is a great question. And you can also time anchor it. Anytime someone has a birthday, you can ask, what's your big goal this year? That's actually a level two question. Right? You're like, like leveling them up in a safe way, because they're talking about their birthday. Any around New Year's, January and December, I ask everyone I know what's your biggest goal right now? New quarter, new performance review. When we talk about goals, it activates a part of our brain that triggers dopamine. When we think

32:30about our future self, it activates a part of ourselves that wants to get motivated. And so level two is also giving someone motivation that in conversation, they're actually discovering an aspect of themselves, they're tapping their own resource for motivation. It gives them permission to dream a little bit and yeah, and you're giving them the motivation that they already have, but you're bringing it into the conversation. I think recently we are so into intrapersonal. Like a lot of what you see on social media right now is mindset and mantra and affirmation and productivity. And I love all of those things, but that means that people are actually using all that excitement alone when they're journaling or when they're meditating or when they're working on their to-do list. We have forgotten I've noticed to bring those goals into conversation. We're almost like embarrassed. I don't know if you've noticed this, but I have, it's almost like people are like embarrassed talk about their secret side hustle or their embarrassed talk about their secret passion. If we give someone permission to bring in what they have been motivated about privately into conversation, they get,

33:34you have to be an ally. When you're with a dead end, when you ask these kind of level two questions, then you get to answer. Because some people haven't quite figured out what their biggest goal is. Absolutely, especially also sometimes introverts in conversation. I've asked these questions to thousands of people and all different kinds of things happen when I do that. Introverts also need more time to process. So you might ask them, what are you learning right now or what's your biggest goal? And they might in the moment not know, they just need a little bit of time to process. And so two things can happen is if they don't have it yet, that's okay. You also have opportunity to share. But what if I ask, I'm thinking because I know a lot of taxi drivers listen to this podcast because I get an taxi and we talk about it. I love it. Taxi drivers, they're conversation lists, often very good ones. But sometimes I guess a taxi driver might be faced with the scenario where the person in the back seat doesn't want to talk. And they might hit them with one of the you know, level ones and then the level two. So they're just getting brick walls. Then I would respect that. If someone doesn't want to talk to you.

34:34Do you just back out? Yeah. Okay. Because then they're going through their own thing. Right? Like if you have to have also courage to be disliked. Right? Like you can try your best in conversation. You can bring the best questions. But if someone is not your person or they are not ready to connect, why would you waste your energy on that? So I also think that asking somebody's are like bids. It's a bid to see like, could we could we do this? You want to banter with me? Should we have level one? Should we even dip into level two? Great. If not cool, they're not your person. It's not their day. So if they don't take the bait. It's okay. Okay. The text service usually asked me, got anything exciting today? Are we going anywhere exciting? Great. That's a great, swap level. And I should say by the way, these questions are suggestions. If you can modify them to fit what you are doing, even better. Like for example, you and I are in book signings or we are meeting you after speaking events. It makes sense for us to modify the learning or goal question to say, hey, what did you learn? Or did you learn anything new? Or was your fear a part?

35:38Right. We're modifying that for us. A tax driver is going to modify it for. Are we heading anywhere exciting? Do you think exciting today? So like these are not prescriptions. They are guidelines to try to make the research applicable. You know, I've spent most of my career looking at research, reading academic studies. And some of them are 30 pages of jargon with one nugget. And Dan McAdams research is so incredible. But when I first read it, I did not know how to use it. I was like general trade. It's personal concerns. Like level one, I wasn't sure. So a lot of these are just ways to activate the behavioral research, the guideline that's driving all of our interactions. But you get to have flexibility with it as it works for you. The goal in level one, treasure hunt, put some when it ease, ask them about what they love, harvest story. The goal of level two is to give someone permission to share a dream, a secret desire or a secret worry. And level three, we get to get to in a little bit when you're ready. Oh, we have one more level three. Hold on. Level two question. On these questions, yes, do you have to actually care about the answer? Do you have to authentically

36:40care about what their biggest goal is right now or what their personal passion project is? Does it matter if you don't actually care? There have been times in conversation where I'm not sure if I care yet. So I would say, you don't care yet. What if you ask the question and you're not sure, you're not bought in yet? But then you hear an answer that deeply resonates with you or you deeply care about it. I think we don't know always if we're going to care about someone because we've just met them. But maybe you will. Right? Like you never know who's going to be your next best friend. Right? You never know when when you're going to hear an aha woman that's going to change your business. Like so many of the pivot points in my business have been from random conversations where I happen to ask the right question. Someone gives me a brilliant piece of advice. So is it okay to pretend to care? If you're asking the question, you care enough to try. Right? If you're listening to this podcast, you already care enough to be like, I know I should. I know I should be a master conversation like so many leaders who I work with,

37:44they might not feel warm, but they know they need to be warm. I think that's intent enough. Right? We just got to find the ones that work for you. And you talked a second to go about these questions that lead to dead ends, which are like, what do you do? What are the other examples you gave? Okay, I have a question that I hate a lot. I hate a lot. I want it to leave our vocabulary. It's the worst question in history of conversation. It is. Been busy? Okay. Yeah. Right? Like been busy. What do you do? When you're on the receiving end of those kinds of hostages? Yes. How do I counter that? Because I'm going to get that everywhere I go forever. So how do I counter that? Okay. So every time, first of all, boring questions make you boring. We know this. But boring questions asked of you are an opportunity. In fact, I think you can really surprise and delight someone by breaking the script on their boring question. You are going to be asked a lot of boring questions. Let's talk about two buckets here. The first bucket is when you're asked, what do you do? And you're going to be asked a lot. You better have a great answer. I think having a great answer to

38:48what do you do is creating opportunities for yourself. What most will make the mistake of with what do you do? And I have an entire chapter about it in the book is when you're asked what do you do, they're looking for something where they're trying to understand who you are. Maybe they're even asking what are you worth? Maybe. So now the ball's in your court to break the script and to surprise them. You want to give an answer that explains exactly what you do, but then gives them a little bit of a hook. As an like creates like curiosity guy. A little bit of a little bit of information a little bit of curiosity. And we don't want to over complicate or be vague. So for example, I was sitting in a coffee shop. I was researching this book and I was eavesdropping on everyone's conversations because that's the best way. You know, if you listen to conversations in the wild, all the things you hear are great. And I was on my computer and I heard, she said, so what do you do? I think they were on like a date. And he goes, oh, I have a system, I have a system for maximizing achievement in young learners. And she was like, what? And he goes, yeah, I, you know, I work with fifth grade students and I have a system for how they can learn math and reading. And she

39:50goes, oh, you're a teacher. He goes, yeah, I'm a fifth grade teacher. And I was like, wow, the intention there was to be interesting, right? He didn't want to say, I'm just a fifth grade teacher. But he gave the brain too many calories, like conversation calories. The convert, the brain wants the simplest, easiest road possible. If we want to put people at ease, what doesn't put people at ease is having action like you're reading your resume. If you're what answered, what do you do? Sounds like you're reading your resume. You are turning people off, right? It's either a jargon filled or it feels too formal or too complex. So that answer that he gave was vague. It was complex complex. And it wasn't the social. Interesting. It also didn't didn't give me a link, right? Like the social hierarchy of facts, I have to know what you do before I can know your how. So what should he have said? Okay, what he should have said is not the how, but the what? I love why, but I think that that needs to come second. So what he should have said is, I'm a fifth grade teacher and I've been working for the last 10 years. I developed this really

40:53unique system that speeds up reading. Now we're talking because my brain went, got it, check. Fifth grade teacher got it. Then I got to hear the how wow, 10 years. That answered another question that we always have. How long have you been doing that? Right? You're trying to skip ahead. And then out of this hook of I figured out how to get students to read faster. So when you think of what to do, I have a little formula. If you're willing to play around with it. And again, a formula always take it loosely. It could fit. I do blank. For who? Buy how? That is doing some, it's like a gift to the other person. You're giving them a very clear label of what you do. So they can put you in a box. And I hate, I hate being put in a box, but unfortunately our brains need it, especially if it's very easy to understand. Buy who? Because you will always want to, can you help me? Can you help my friend? Is it for my sister? And then if it fits your how? A lot of people listening now are more multi-highfinated than ever before. Love them all. They do it this. That a violin, a creator, a LinkedIn thing, a speech, a dance, an improv. Yeah. So how do those people answer when they're

41:54multi-highfinated? Oh, I love it. Okay. So two things. A multi-high, we understand complexity as humans. We get it. So you can say, you know, I daylight as a fifth grade teacher, but I moonlight as a cinematographer. You can literally say you're hyphen. If you're in a career pivot, we have a lot of students who come to us who are mid-pivot. We love a hero story. So you can say, you know, I've been working in marketing for the last 20 years, but I'm thinking about going back to school for psychology. We think that people can't handle it, but conversation can handle a lot, and it doesn't take a long time. Now, I do want to make a note here. The mechanics of conversation. So there's two aspects of conversation. There's the art, right? Like weaving and excitement and harvesting story, and I love that. But there's also the mechanics. So let's talk about that first. So the candor corpus, it's a huge research study on the mechanics conversation. So how long do you think a typical turn should take in conversation? Like how long should our turns take? 15 seconds.

42:54Wonderful. 15 to 30 seconds. So in average conversation, we like 15 to 30 seconds. 45 seconds is okay, but we start to turn to a monologue. By this you mean how long we speak for each before I let you speak? Yes, before we start to feel like, well, I'm talking too much. It's not my turn. So 15 to 30. And by the way, if you want to go listen to previous Zoom conversations, it can be helpful to know if you're an overtaker or an undertaker. Under 15 seconds, you might be actually creating conversational scarcity, like not asking enough, not talking enough. Which one's worse? Do you find? Well, I'm an overtaker. So I'm going to say under talking because I'm an overtaker. So I'm going to say it's worse. I'm going to say it's worse. We buy like, can I take a hit at podcasts for just a second? Sure. So the other reason I wrote this book is I think the art of conversation is being systematically stripped away piece by piece. And it's well intentioned. This is not a natural conversation. Right? Like I'm in an interview. I would never normally take this long on turns if we were having dinner. You're reading notes. I have

43:56notes. But more and more of our off time is listening to podcast conversations, but those are not real conversations. Those are interviews. So one is we are hearing conversations that are not real. They are a bit performative, right? And they're not following the mechanics of conversation. That is affecting our conversational muscle and our brain. Second is we're having more and more asynchronous conversations. I now more than ever. I'm sending nine minute voice notes to my friends. Dan, wow. Right. They send them back to me. What a voice note is not a conversation. A voice note is a monologue. And when you're giving a voice note, I don't get the, oh, it's my turn. Me too. How dare you? I don't like that. I don't agree. Like there's no back and forth in fact, it's the most selfish form of conversation. And this is from someone who sends a lot of voice notes because I don't get, I don't need to hear your opinion. I get to go as long as I want. I don't have to worry about whatever you're doing. And I'm usually multitasking. Right. I'm listening to my best friends. Boys don't while I'm cleaning or cooking or exercising.

44:59So that has skewed it because we've been getting to real conversation and it feels hard because our muscle has been atrophying with this asynchronous. And then we are also conversing less. You know, only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day basis. Only three in 10 Americans socialize on a day basis, meaning they're having more time alone and they are conversing less. And that is because we're able to do so much work asynchronously. We also spend so much time on our on our self-care, our longevity, our workouts that we're just doing less with other people. And one in six people worldwide are affected by loneliness. And I think that is because we're having less conversation. And if we're having it, it's happening asynchronously. Or, and this is the last hardest point is we are now talking to technology more than talking to each other. And I don't just mean through technology. Yes, we've been talking through technology for a long time. But only recently are we talking to technology. And when I talk to my technology, it sounds

46:00different than when I talked to you. Like I was sitting next to my husband and he was working. And he was like talking to his AI. And he was like, do better. That's terrible work. Do better. And then I asked him a question. He turned to me. And I was like, you better not tell me to do better. And that is because we're talking technology in a way that we would never talk to other humans. But her brain doesn't always know the difference. And so I think this muscle is atrophying. And on this point of like knowing whether you are a good conversationalist talker, there was a recent study of over a thousand Americans. And they found that 95% of people have worked with someone who talks too much. These chatty co-workers spend an average of 90 minutes of their work day just talking. And 71% of respondents said talkative co-workers prevented them from getting their work done. Yes. How does one know if they are the person that talks too much? First, let's do an intervention on this is go back if you have recorded Zoom calls and just time yourself. There is a kind of appropriate rate 15 to 45 seconds. 45 seconds the most. Second, nonverbal cues. Someone is checking out if they are opening their mouth

47:06as if to say something. That is a subtle cue that someone wants to turn. But they are going to wait. So if someone is opening their mouth, I call like the open fish. It means they want to turn like you did it to me earlier and I totally stopped. Yeah, you did. Yeah, because I was like, oh, you want to say something. I do actually do give people cues that I want to say something sometimes. And some of them see them and some of them just do not. That was like bully distrails. You're on the small sense of end of the scale where you're almost watching what I'm doing. And it's and having done what 700 of these interviews now, it's really fascinating to me that some people I have to remain completely ugly still because they are surveilling me for cues that they're doing a good job or they want them. And so if I move or look away, they immediately change. Whereas other people don't even know I'm here. It's actually what I prefer. Because then I can like grace these notes and look in the books and I can like go to the toilet and come back. And it's just easier. And this is why this is not natural conversation. But I think people like you are better at conversation because you see conversation not as a

48:06megaphone in which you're shouting through. You see it as continual feedback. And that's why I have to sometimes be on edge with people like you because I know that you're taking cues from me. Right. And also like I'm looking for your eyebrow raises. Yeah. Right. Like one is Neil DeGrasse Tyson says that every book is every eyebrow raising thing he's ever said. Because he'll go on airplanes and he'll just talk to people and when they go, oh, but he writes it down. And so I'm doing the same thing for you as I'm looking at your eyebrows very closely. Don't ever get Botox. And so if you raise your eyebrows, I want to double click on it. Right. Because you're you're the taste maker. Right. I know I'm saying things interest me. But might not interest you. So if you say something, if you raise your eyebrows, I'm going to go deeper or give you an example or tell you a story. And and this is like, this is why this is not a normal conversation and a conversation and go like this. Those moments go viral. Right. Like when you go, oh, yeah. Like those are like the replay parts. Like the amp of a thing. Right. And and and unfortunately we're all here because we're trying to to reach people. Right. And so if you are

49:07going, oh, and you raise your eyebrows on a double click. So if no one is doing that to you, if you're in a conversation back and forth and there are no eyebrow races and there's no wow. And they are either looking away or having that open mouth. And by the way, that's also I can interrupt someone. If I want to interrupt someone politely, I'll go. It used to be that working for yourself was a massive, massive risk. But that world has completely changed. If you've got a business idea that you can't stop thinking about, I think you owe it to yourself to at least try and make it happen. And that is where our show sponsor Shopify comes in. Their smart platform includes everything you need to start selling and get that idea off the ground. They have this drag and drop editor. They have this AI sidekick and helps you. They have analytics and you don't need to be an expert to get going. Shopify's best in class. Check out. Make sure that you're getting paid from day one. It helps more of your customers finish their purchase because they check out is so efficient and it saves their info for next time. Personalize checkouts like that equal more conversion equal a faster growing business.

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51:11after and will deliver to the same high standards as your internal team. And most importantly, they'll keep up with the pace. It's a simple strategy, but it lets us stay agile without compromising on quality. So if you need these kind of skills in your business, head to pro.fiver.com to find a pioneering talent to fill your businesses gaps. That's pro.fiver.com. I'll be honest, Vanessa, I was thinking about someone that I might consider to be in the overtalking category. Yeah. And when they talk, I don't think they have any concept that there's anybody else in the room. I think they might as well have their eyes completely closed. That's kind of, I was just thinking about it the day when I was with this person. And they might as well be sat there like this. And they're just, and they're going to finish when they feel like they've ran out of things. Okay, this is there are two types of conversational people. There's entertainers and appreciators. One of the biggest questions I get is how do I talk to VIPs? How do I talk to my boss? And this is exactly this. And I don't know if there are a VIP or not. That actually doesn't matter. They are an entertainer. The way I discovered this framework, because I was in the green room

52:15for a speaking event. And a very famous person came in. I could tell you who was later. Very, very famous. Who was it? We're going to cut this. No, we'll keep in. Okay, I think he's pretty famous. Massively famous. Okay, okay. He comes in and we have a little of a downtime before he has to go up. And I watched person after person try. You know, when you watch someone try, and this is the same thing when someone's approaching their boss or a VIP. And they all tried the same way. Either a compliment or a question. Oh, I love your stuff so much. I've been watching you since I was a kid. Oh, my gosh, you changed my life. Right. Complement or question. Oh, what's the best thing you've ever done? I won't get too specific. What was your giving advice for me as a young person? Right. It was either compliment or question. He was just not having it. Yeah, nice to meet you. Right. Like quick selfie. Just not engage. And I was like, wow, that's what I would have advised back then. Either go with a compliment or question. No. Then one person came out. It was actually one of the AV guys who was going to mic him.

53:18And he said, can I tell you the funniest story? He was like, and you could literally see him. He was like, yeah. And this guy begins to tell him hilarious stories. But the first time he watched one of his movies, hilarious stories about him and his siblings playing sports. And you know, he's laughing. The guy is laughing. And then he starts asking him questions. And I realized he wants to be entertained. He doesn't want to entertain him. So what I realized was there are certain people who want to entertain. They speak longer. So they're more at risk of talking too much. They want you to laugh at their jokes. They want to share their stories. Their love language and competition that gives them energy. Other people giving them adoration or listening to their stories, listening to their ideas. They love giving advice. They talk more in conversation. The other time of person, and I think this is you, and actually this is me, even though it doesn't look that way on podcasts, we are appreciators. I talk all day long for my work. The last thing I do when I want to go to dinner is talk. In fact, when people ask me deep questions, I sometimes I'm like,

54:22can we go back to level one? Can you just tell me everything? Appreciators talk less. They love to laugh at other people's stories. They love to hear interesting, aw, weird, surprising, embarrassing things. They are much more hesitant to open up about themselves. Like as long as we've been talking, we are not personally on level three. We are able to hide that because we keep it back. It is critical when you're talking to bosses or VIPs to know which one you're talking to. Entertainers won't question. But appreciators want people to tell them stories. They don't want a lot of questions. Your friend is an entertainer. You get to make the choice of, are you going to go into their superpower and let them entertain you and keep going and keep talking as much as they want? Or do you want the ball? What if the thing they're saying is because when you hear entertainer, I interpret that as you're coming up to someone and sharing something that is fun and interesting and whenever. But there's some people that roll up and they say they talk about themselves. That's what they want to talk about. They want to

55:27be a self-esteem issue. They want to convince you that they are whatever. Conversational narcissists. Okay, is that a thing? Yeah. So these are people in conversation. This is when the levels still hold. In fact, sometimes a conversation narcissist will take themselves. They'll walk themselves right up all three levels. They'll answer for themselves in level one. They'll tell you all about their goals and they'll tell you the most deepest things that you did not want to know. That's when you get verbal vomit. Someone just won't stop talking in there. Just telling you things that you didn't even want to know. You have a choice. You can either try to teach them that that's not the way they should be in conversation. You can literally say, is it my turn yet? Do you want to hear about mine? Do you want to hear about my goal? If this is the person you're going to invest in and you care for and you like, you have to stand up for what you want to share. In your experience, where does that conversational narcissism come from? Like what? In security. Yeah. Write this person's insecure. I don't even know them. They're insecure. Also, my vet is trying to impress you.

56:27My vet is trying to find something to raise your eyebrows, but they don't realize that the more they talk, the more you're like, can I go home? Do you think they know that they're conversational narcissists? Do you think they're listening right now and think, fuck, that's me? Or do they not have that level? The person that I was referring to, they know they talk too much because they say it and they've had the feedback. They literally will say, I talk too much, but then they can't seem to stop because it's so deep, they ingrained in them from their childhood. I'm wondering if they're listening now and they go, okay, that's me. My next question is, how do they fix it? Curiosity. That's an easier question. I actually don't think there's a hard and fast rule. Some conversation narcissists are aware of it and hate themselves for it. They literally know they're doing it and they're why stop talking? They literally know what's happening and they're like, why? Why am I doing this? They can't stop because they're so scared of the awkward silence. By the way, we asked a couple thousand people, what is your greatest conversational fear? I thought it was going to be rejection or judgment. No, it was awkward silences or not knowing what to say. Very mechanical. I thought,

57:32wow, 4,000 people. Their biggest conversational fear is not being rejected. That was one of the options on the multiple choice. It's running out of things to say. The reason they're talking too much is because they are terrified of that moment where they're sitting with Stephen Bartlett and there's some silence and then you're like, bye. I like the silence. As a podcast, you have to come to times with the fact that the guests might stop talking at any moment and you might not have anything else to say. That's what I'm talking about. So the way that they fix it is curiosity. I do believe in a sort of curiosity, not just the follow-up, tell me more, but the what, the how, the why, the when. I think that those, what how, why, when that assertive curiosity of let's actually dig into this dream, let's really talk about it. Why I'm confused. If we had a conversational narcissist here, are you telling me how they would recover from that? They would recover from it by being aggressively or assertively curious about you. Okay, but they know, they know, I feel like

58:36they know that. I feel like they know they talk too much. Okay, then I'm going to say something you're not going to like it. Maybe you're not giving them enough to be curious about. What I would ask next time is, are you curious about me or do not feel the curiosity? Because saying, do you want to know my answer or is it my turn yet? Is a way of being like, is there curiosity there? I think that's really important. Like I think in relational patterns, like there are really conversational patterns that we can have. So we're talking a lot about new-ish people, but how would the people you've known for a long time might, my goal, my deepest wish for this this podcast is that you will go have a conversation, a cornerstone conversation with someone and ask all nine questions. Now, if you're in a conversational rut, and this can happen in friendships, it can happen with people who are used to being the overtalker in their relationship, it can happen in marriages, or marriages where you only talk about logistics. This is going to break the rut because the whole point of this is turn-taking. So I would be just

59:39so curious if you go to dinner with this person and you're like, hey, my friend Vanessa came on the pod and she gave us nine questions. Do you want to do them together? I'll go first. Could she do it? It's a she, right? He. He. Could he do it? Could he do it? And so that, this is how you can break that rut to see if there's actual curiosity there because I have, I always assume the best in people. I'm hoping this person is very well intentioned, just has deep insecurity. It is that case. And so if you were to give a framework, it can sometimes break you out of a conversational rut with someone. I remember I think it was you that said to me that the key to great conversations or interactions was being interested, not interesting. Yeah, after Dale Carnegie, yes. I wish I had created with it. So Dale Carnegie is sort of the the person who allowed me to think about being less selfish. I think that if you go into a conversation thinking all about yourself, how can I be impressive? How can I be smart and funny and how can I get them to like me? That's okay, but it's quite

1:00:43selfish. And it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. When I started thinking how can I go into conversation and putting this person at ease? How can I make them feel like they can impress me? How can I be interested so to make them interesting? And by hopefully that has a rebound effect of making me interesting, that is a very selfless conversational generosity. One small goal for the book was to create more conversational generosity. But if you're in conversation and someone is over talking, you can be generous enough to either say, hey, can I have a turn? Or to let them entertain you because they're entertainers or to ask even more questions. And you said to me last time that there was a study that found the most liked people were those that were interested in others in conversation. The most popular kids were the kids who had the longest list of people they liked. Meaning, if you want to be likable, you have to go around assertively and aggressively liking as many people as possible. Because if you go into conversations thinking how could I like you?

1:01:47How could I like you? How could I like you more? It's less about you. And you're asking questions that are setting them up to be likable. I wonder and I wish I could take a crack at this conversational narcissist that you know. If I were to ask more questions of them, like really set them up to entertain me to get deep, to actually let them go to level two, maybe the level three if they want to. Would they calm down? Would their insecurity feel? I'm understood. I'm chosen. I'm loved. I think, and this is just you're an intimidating person, right? Like I think goodness have confidence. But if I was in her with you, I think I would feel a little bit nervous too. It may not be more, but anyway, first about you for sure two years ago. My guess is that this person doesn't feel like doesn't feel understood by you. It doesn't feel chosen by you. And the quieter you become, when you're just trying to respect them, the quieter you become, the more they don't feel those three things as they keep talking. So I would try to ask better, deeper questions, like lean into it and see if that can get them calm enough to be like, oh, he chose me. He loves me. What's interesting

1:02:53is I observe with people like that that they step more into the conversation narcissism with certain people. Yes. Yes. So with certain individuals. So for example, in this case, if I was a beautiful woman, this individual would be full blown like word vomit. It would fully come out. Or just women generally, even if it's a platonic relationship, becomes even more like intent on. Wants to be understood, chosen and loved by that beautiful woman. Like such a deep desire. And so I wonder if you could disengage it with actually answering those three questions for them, like putting them at ease. I also think it's important to talk about an aspect of bad conversation is making the driver of the conversation feel like they're a bad driver. Right. This person is driving conversation. They know they're an overtalker and they're driving.

1:03:55And all the passengers are like, oh my gosh, this person is so bad. And what does a bad driver do? They get even more tense. They get even worse at it. And so the flip side of that is how can you make them feel like a better driver? And one way that we accidentally, the opposite of dream building is dream killing. So dream killing is when we shut down a dream, we make someone feel not liked, make them feel not understood. I think that very smart people have an accidental effect where they dream kill with logic. Yeah. You know, I call it my lovely smart leader as I say, you're fact checking, not gut checking. Right. If you're fact checking all the time, if you're, you know, trying to accuracy kill, but they're not there yet, you're actually creating a conversational scarcity that's going to make them feel like, oh, I have to prove myself, I have to dig in. Now I'm going to talk even more because I want to convince you. And so I think the opposite of dream building is dream killing and very smart people than a dream kill by accident and it shuts down connection completely. Like not only will you knock at the level two and not you'll bounce on level one or you won't have relationship with that person. I was just thinking about in my

1:04:58previous company, we interviewed somebody and they were extremely extremely intelligent. And it was really obvious to me how intelligent they were, like unbelievable, that credential's unbelievable. And then they went through the interview process and the interview feedback from the people that met them was like neutral or negative. I remember thinking, do you know what it is? This person is so obsessed with the pursuit of truth that they put being liked or being pleased or whatever to the side. They just care if what you're saying is true or not. And that in some respects might hold them back. It's also like why I think that this person is amazing. But getting through like an interview process or those sort of social dynamics would be really tough, right? And this takes us back to why conversation is essential. Very smart people think all about their ideas, their knowledge, the facts. But you can be the smartest person in the room. But if people don't feel connected to you, they don't believe your smarts. That comes directly from the research. Competence without warmth is likely to leave us feeling suspicious. So you could be incredibly smart. But if you cannot manage the mechanics of

1:06:03connective conversation, people feel suspicious. It literally triggers a part of their brain that goes, I don't know about this person. And so the reason why level one is so critical, but we can't skip it is what we're doing is we're trying to create ease. That's another way of saying warmth. We're trying to make it so someone feels like they can be understood with us. And then if they're understood, they're chosen and if they're chosen, they're loved. Right? Like it's a three. And this actually brings me to the third. So bad as we'll see. I will look at that. So I struggled with this. What are we on? Sixth question. Because there, I started this research with over a hundred questions. And I was touching them. I mean, I was making everyone try average different kind. I was using my students. They were trying them. I was testing. Also, I wanted to make sure they worked at work. They worked at home and they worked with kids. Right? Like you can do a lot of it. You have to also them slightly, but I want to make sure they work across the board. And the sixth question is actually a signature question. So this is taking us back and thinking, what do you love to talk about? What do you love to talk

1:07:03about in conversation? What do you love to talk about conversation? When you're talking? What do I love to talk about? Yeah, not here about the stuff I'm going to talk about. Oh gosh. We're going to reverse engineer it. This six questions about reverse engineering your love. I like to talk about psychology of people. Okay. Okay. So great. Okay. So you would want to reverse engineer questions about how and why. If you love psychology and behavior, you're going to want to ask them and why do you make that choice? You know, what made you choose that path? You're going to want to ask more behavioral questions, even in an interviewing perspective. Let's talk about this for a second. So I believe in behavioral interviewing. I believe in interview questions that actually let you know about someone's behavior, not just their opinions. So for example, interviewers will make the mistake of asking, what's your greatest weakness? It's not a good question because they're going to answer with a prepared answer. It's not going to be real. It's not going to tell you much. I would rather you ask, what would your last manager say is your greatest weakness? That's a very different question. First of all, it's not going to be as practiced. Maybe after

1:08:07now it will be. But you're asking the first to step outside themselves from a behavior perspective. When we step outside of ourselves and think about someone else's opinion, we see different things even about ourselves. And likely, they're going to call your previous manager. Right. So they can confirm that in a phone call. And you can even say, you know, when I call your previous manager, what would your previous manager say is your greatest weakness? You're going to get a juicy answer. Right. And then you can go verify it. Another behavioral technique, which is why I like behavior so much is not just asking, tell me about a recent time that you manage your project. Right. We always ask for examples in an interview. That's okay, but not great because they're going to pick the best one. What's your better off saying is, tell me about the most recent time you managed a project. It should be the last three months, two months, not a year or two ago. So asking for recency, asking for other people's opinions. The reason why I say this is because that would be crafting a type of answer that you want, trying to craft information about a previous

1:09:08experience that is real and not rehearsed. So for you, you'd be wanting to ask more behavior questions when you're at dinner, when you're here, obviously, because that's what you love. Many success people have signature questions. Like I know Amy Polar at the end of her podcast, she always asks, what are you laughing about? What's making you laugh recently? That's her signature question. Example I use in the book is Ginny Eurick has a challenge of 1,000 hours outside, which is spending 1,000 hours with her kids outside, playing more outside, off-screen. And she asks everyone her podcast, what was your favorite outdoor memory? Because she loves talking about outdoors and childhood nostalgia. So the sixth question is inviting, what do you love to talk about? How can we engineer that in your conversations by looking for opportunities to bring it up? So at this stage, I would turn to somebody when I feel like I've got that depth with them. And I'd say, what do you love to talk about? And they might say, do you not, I really love talking about sports. And then are you saying that opens a door and gives me a clue as to how to connect with them? So

1:10:09future conversations with them should orientate towards sports or psychology, whatever their answer was? No, it would be. You can ask what do you love to talk about? It would be, you Steven loves to talk about behavior. So you are going to ask more behavioral questions of them. So you get to create your sixth question. Right. So like right now, because I'm talking about conversation, my signature question is, what's your favorite conversation starter? When I was researching cues, it was, who's the most charismatic person you know? When I was researching captivate, it was, what's your favorite body language cue? Or do you ever think about body language? So it can change based on your interest, but you're creating it for yourself. Okay, so this one's the bespoke one. You get to write this one yourself. Yes, exactly, exactly. Got you. So I'm interested in psychology. So this one would be psychology related topics for me. Right. Or like what drives you? I hate your role. Yeah, yeah. I actually think that some of the level three questions might interest you, but I'm curious. Okay. Let's see. All right. Level three. Are you ready? Wait, before we do level three, yes. Just want to close off on this. Do you talk too much test? Okay. So I have a do you talk too

1:11:10much test in the book? It's right here. So you're going to ask yourself, I leave a conversation realizing I don't know much about the other person. Okay. That's a secret curiosity question. So there's five questions here. And if you answer often more than three times, you're probably an overtalker. That's it. And all of them secretly, Steven, are saying, are you curious enough? Okay. Right. Because we know the curiosity is the antidote. So I put this right at the end of level one, because you really can't go to level two if you're talking too much. Okay. You're not curious enough. You're not going to learn their dream. So question one. So if I say yes to three of these, then I'm probably an overtalker. Correct. So first one is I leave a conversation realizing I didn't know much about the other person. I'd say rarely. After I finish speaking people nod politely, but don't always respond. Sometimes. Oh. I love telling long detailed stories, especially when people are too polite to interrupt. Do you ever tell long detailed story? Only when I'm on stage and I'm a bit and someone has paid me to that doesn't count. Okay. Doesn't count. Sometimes,

1:12:12I'd say, I've been told gently or not so gently that I talk a lot. Really? Right. I've never been told that. Number five, while I'm mid story, I notice people glance around the room. Sometimes. So you pass. Okay. Now I could have told you that also, but yeah, you pass. Okay. So those, it's really important because it might be creating conversational friction, right, especially at work. And the best muscle you can do is asking more talking less. And challenge a very specific challenge. Please do a yap challenge. Do you know what a yap challenge is? Oh, yeah, challenge a yap challenge is you open up your phone camera and you teach something or share an opinion about something without notes. And you hit record. If you go naturally 15 or 30 seconds, you're probably good. If you're eating 45 seconds, that's the max. If you're up to a minute or two minutes, you probably talk too much. Hmm. About yourself. About yourself. Like that, your typical answering length is longer than conversational appropriate to a question about you.

1:13:15If a yap challenge could be, share your opinion about veganism. Damn, I didn't think I could get that done in 15 seconds. What's your answer? No, not to veganism. Just generally like fits an idea. Everything in my head is a story first. So it's like, you know what though? Introverts can. Introverts absolutely can. And they'll often go too short. Like, for example, I'll give you a yap challenge. I was just thinking about the other day. I'm going to do it on social media. We'll do it together. Yap challenge. Someone recently asked my friend out by asking for her Instagram handle, not her number. Agreed. Disagree. It depends on her vibe. What energy was she giving and what was the context? Was that after a two hour date? Was that just me near on the street? Rolled up on the street. I think it's actually, I agree then because it's less invasive. It's like, I will earn your number. Oh, wow. Give me the chance to earn your number. Okay, you just convinced me. That's interesting. So by the way, I think that was what? 12 seconds. Okay, yeah, maybe. Right. So like, you're keeping it tight. I disagree, but that is interesting nuance.

1:14:21I'm not going to give you my Instagram because my Instagram is performative. Everyone's Instagram is performative. If you are looking at my Instagram, it's like saying, I don't want to get to know you through conversation. I'm going to look through everything and know everything about you before I decide if I want to take you out. And you take the joy out of discovery. If I'm with you and I'm like, do you have any pets? And you're like, yeah, I have a dog. Then I can say, oh, how'd you get the dog? What's the dog's name? How'd you choose that name? Versus, ah, look, she has a dog named Stouley. But you know, your number is reserved for people in your like personal, professional life. So what you're saying, if you roll up on the street, is you're saying, let me in to your personal and professional environment stranger. Whereas the public environment, which is Instagram, is I think a much more soci appropriate place to invite oneself into. Okay, let's fight about this. Okay. If you do that, your conversation is going to be more awkward on your first date because because you feel like you've already learned about the person. So maybe you're discovering more of their public persona, but you've seen their kind

1:15:22of friends where they hang out, what they do on the weekends, do they hike or not, do they have any pets? Oh, look, they're there at Thanksgiving. They have lots of siblings. This is, I think, why we're having awkward first date conversations. Why first dates have gotten even worse is because you're on the first date. You've already discovered all level one stuff that you think you know. So now, even though you've, I mean, you're very first conversation, you kind of have to go to level two. It's so much harder and it's unnatural. It's unnatural to know all this information that wasn't transmitted human to human. That was done in a performative way. And then you have to get in person and it's harder to come up with conversation starters because you already know a lot. I also think what I would say is if someone were to, I'm not single, I have been single a long time, I was always say, can I have your Instagram? I would say, you know, I have one for just friends and family, but maybe you can get there one day. You would say that. Yeah, I would. If I could know, I would never. Because I want you to chat me. Right? Like, I don't want to show you my Instagram. You're going to see everything. And like, I'd rather like, like, let's banter.

1:16:24Let's chat. Are you funny? Are you going to ask me good questions? Are you going to be a confidential narcissist and then ask me out to dinner if it's going well over text or over, over the phone? So you think less context results in better conversation. So just having there what's Apple there, I message is going to result in more interesting conversations. The me knowing that you like hiking and puppies and me being able to be like, have you got a Labra Doodle too? Oh my God, my Labra Doodle is just giving me a couple of triplets. Yes. And less performative context. Like, our social feeds are not 100% real. So it's not like you were listening to me talk about something. It's a, it's a curated highlight reel of my life. So you feel like you know me. Like people who follow me Instagram, like, they might feel like they know me, but my life is quite different than my Instagram in the sense of I show a very small piece of what I do. Same right with you, right? And so I know I'm not single, but if I was single and someone asked for my, my Instagram, even as a not like public figure, I would have no casual level one banter with them that is

1:17:24critical, socially critical for me to understand their basics. And so when we skip level one, we do damage to our potential connection later. We create more awkwardness and more friction for ourselves. Okay. So my challenge for single people is stop asking for handles and ask for numbers. Are people going to get mad at me? Well, a lot of them are meeting by dating apps now. For sure. And I think that's okay. You know, a dating app is much more limited than an endless feed. It's like, I don't know how many photos are in dating apps these days, but it's still like, that's like the most performative. It's like, look at me at the gym. Look at this car that I bought. But it's not forever. You can't go back to someone's Instagram since they were in high school. Right? Like it's, you know, it's six images or 10 images. You have these pre-subscribed questions. Like, I'm actually okay with it. I love dating apps. I think that actually they can really connect people very quickly. But you don't know everything about you. Don't feel like you know everything about me. I feel like people are dating apps, hate dating apps. Of course. Of course. But how else would you know, meet people if we have our iPod, our AirPods in all the time? You're not going to meet people if you're at the gym. We talked with this last time. If you have your AirPods in at the gym and someone wants to hit on you, you're not going to hear it. So we have to use dating apps.

1:18:29I think they're the only way that we'll be able to connect. So I'm actually, I'm pro dating app. Of course, I would love people to approach in person, but I'm not pro, not talking first. And I think if someone asks for your handle, you're fair to say, it's just for my friends and family. Let's try to get there. Okay, but I can see it. Okay. No, I think it makes sense. It does make sense. Okay, we did it. Okay, so this is a wonderful level, but it's reserved for your most important people. I think a mistake that people make is they are afraid of going too deep too quickly. And they're afraid of going deep in conversation because it feels scary to be vulnerable. And are they right? They are right. Okay. If we go too deep too quickly, especially at work, and I wrote this book with work in mind, people are going to think you're weird. Right? Yeah. If we shared too much too quickly, it's going to be weird. And there is such a thing as vulnerability regret. Vulnerability regret is you shared something too vulnerable, and it wasn't a safe space or it wasn't received well. And the heartache that you get from that

1:19:31is soul crushing. Right? If you share something to do, are you asking me to do too quickly, you're like, why did I do it? It's painful. Do that happen? Do you or no, you don't share? No, I walked away from situations and thought actually maybe that wasn't the appropriate situation to share that. But I've also been in situations that I immediately thought of a meeting I had two weeks ago where I was interviewing someone and the first 25 minutes of the interview, they shared some really, really personal things about that they're very early childhood. I almost had to adjust myself to, I thought I was going into an interview to meet them and ask them about work stuff. But I've always felt myself pivoting away and I don't have to be more of a counselor or something. Yeah. And so I think that we actually have to date level three. I think we actually have to date. And it's been a little confusing culturally because I think that we are loving vulnerability and that's really good and vulnerability authenticity. There's a very fine line there. Being authentic is great, but being too vulnerable too quickly is very awkward

1:20:32and sometimes not safe. So I really share, when we talk about level three, I want you to reserve it for your most important people. So level three is called your self narrative. Your self narrative is the story you tell yourself about yourself. It is how you make sense of your journey and purpose in life. And the story you tell yourself about yourself is self-creating. Meaning, if you have a narrative of hardship and being unlucky, you are probably going to see more hardship and create more bad luck for yourself. And they've proven that this, there's actually two types of self narratives. There's a contamination narrative and a redemption narrative. People with a redemption narrative, they have a frame around the facts of their life of no matter what they do, no matter what comes their way, they're going to overcome. With hard work and grit and resilience, they can overcome anything. And what's interesting about this in our research is this narrative, it holds across their life. Yes, they're their facts of their life, but their work, their love,

1:21:36their parenting, they repeat that same redemption narrative and everything they do. The other kind of narrative is a contamination narrative. People with a contamination narrative, they feel that all the hardship and all the challenge and the struggle has happened to them and they can't make it through. They can't overcome. The no matter how hard they've worked their grit, their strength or resilience, they're a victim of circumstance. It typically feel very unlucky and very out of control. And when you have that kind of narrative, it's less about the facts of your life and more about the frames of your life, how you're seeing those facts. When you have a contamination narrative or your inner relationship with a contamination narrative, the only way that I think we can change that because our narratives are changeable, these are not fixed personality traits is via conversation. So my secret hope with with level three conversation is when you're in a safe relationship, when you can truly share who you are, when you feel understood, you can maybe rewrite your narrative. You can maybe flip from a contamination narrative the frame of how you

1:22:39see your facts into redemption. And that is my secret goal here. So how do we do that? Okay, the first thing is beginning to uncover what your narrative is and what someone else's narrative is. So the first thing we have to understand is how our brain works. Our brains, our storytellers, that's why we love story. And level one, I was kind of a warm up. Like we're telling story about our passions and our side hustles. We're also telling the story about ourselves all the time. And so we've told the story about ourselves. And there are what I call narrative hints. In conversation, people will leak the kind of narrative that they have. So they might say, oh, everyone always zigs and I zag. Gosh, everything bad always happens to me. Oh, of course, of course, yet another thing. If people have superlatives, always, never, they tend to be more of a contamination person. People who are in that contamination narrative space, they tend to see things as very black and white. They tend to see things as permanent versus redemption. People tend to leak

1:23:40positive hints. And they feel very lucky. They say, oh, good things always happen to me or there's always a silver lining. Oh, yeah, you know, just my luck. I got it. They're saying things about how it's happening. They're leaking their narratives. Who ends up being more successful, happy and healthy? Absolutely. People with redemptive narratives, they have found that people with redemption narratives, they live longer. They have better immune systems. They have better connections. They feel happier. And that is because they feel they can handle whatever is thrown at them. They have a great internal locus of control. They feel that no matter what comes at them, they can handle it. And the good news is this is learnable, right? If we begin to talk about our narratives with our children, with our partners, we can begin to teach them actually, you have a growth here. You have agency over your narrative. This internal locus of control thing is something that I learned about when I was probably 16 or 17 in psychology class. And what does it mean? And what does the study say about the importance of it? So an internal locus of control means that you feel that you're in control. You have agency over your decisions over what happens to you that things can happen to you

1:24:42in your life. But you can decide how you interact with them. You can decide how you behave. People with an external locus of control get their worth from outside sources. They feel validated when someone else tells them they look good. They feel good when someone else tells them they're doing good. They're looking for external ways to feel better. They look more like, for example, vanity metrics, their likes or their follows, how many friends they have, how often they're invited. Are they getting compliments? I was the analogy I was thinking of that is it's almost like you either think you're a bird or you think you're on a roller coaster. Tell me more. You know, a roller coaster has a fixed track. Really irrespective of what you do. It's going to go up, down, left, right, spin, go, go, go, go, go. And you're just holding on and going with it. Whereas a bird feels like it has the agency to go anywhere. No, no, no, no, no, no, yeah. And some people I think do think that they're on a roller coaster on a track. I mean, look, I don't want to get too deep. But if we were in a normal conversation, I would ask you about fate. You know, I think there's questions that can,

1:25:44let me start begin to uncover someone's level three. Do you believe in luck? Do you believe you're lucky? Do you believe in fate? I think if you believe in fate, you're more likely to believe that you're on a roller coaster, that you're on a ride that is predetermined. And now it's up and then it's going to go down and they're going to have a loop. So I wonder, I don't know if someone has a high belief in faith or predetermined fate. If they would feel an external locus of control, and maybe that wouldn't be as good for their mental health, I wonder. I've done almost 700 interviews with some of the most interesting people in the world. And one of the things you learn, which is unexpected is that vulnerability is the doorway to connection. And after sitting here for two, three hours with a guest, I feel a deep sense of connection to them. And as they leave, what I get them to do is to write a question in the diary of a CEO. We've taken all of the questions from the DiroVaseo. We have put the question here on this card with the name of the person that wrote it. So you can sit at home as I do with my fiance and my colleagues at work and other people

1:26:46in my life, whenever we get a minute, we play the DiroVaseo conversation cards. And it is incredible what happens. These are great if you're in a romantic relationship and you want to connect your partner more. These are also great if you're in a team and you want to bond your team together. And I have to say they're also great for families that want to learn more about each other. And that need a good excuse to spend some time in a digital world in the analog environment connecting human to human. It is remarkable. What the right question at the right time can do. Go to the diary.com. And you can get these conversation cards right now. So going back to this idea of these contaminators. So we're listening for narrative hints and we can ask questions like, are you lucky? By the way, if you ask this question, it's a sneaker because it sounds so casual when you ask are you lucky. But their answer really matters. Either there's three answers for are you lucky? One, oh yes. Yes, I feel lucky. When I asked you this last time, you said yes.

1:27:46Yeah, I think I can't look at I feel like I have so much privilege in my life that I feel like I have lucky. Yes, yes. I feel the same. I'm just so grateful that I get to have this super unique career. So I feel lucky. So yes, if someone says yes right away, that tells you a lot about them. That means they probably have a high amount of gratitude. They probably have a high amount of control or agency and they also have confidence. The quickness, the speed of their answer matters here. Then there are people who are going to go, no, I don't think I'm lucky. Now this is a really important thing to know about them. And I don't think you should change it. I think that that's a version of toxic positivity telling someone, oh, but you're so lucky. Think of all the things that you should be grateful for. Usually that actually makes someone dig in. It makes them feel very misunderstood. You're the best thing you can do if someone says they don't feel lucky is to understand it. Why? What are the forces? When did that happen? Did you ever feel lucky before?

1:28:47Sometimes people can flip from lucky to unlucky with a very bad circumstance and it is crucial that you understand that before you judge it. So curiosity gets engaged. If someone says they're unlucky, I think that's an opportunity to really reach out and meet someone where they're at because in that moment they might. Are you going to agree with me? No, no, no, I was just thinking about how wonderful of a question that is for when you first meet someone in an interview or a first date. I was like, maybe I should ask people in an interview. Do you think you're lucky? You should. Because what is that revealing? If they say yes, it's revealing. Multitudes, right? They're graded to their perspective on life, their internal locus of control. You're an optimist. Often, not always, but sometimes it can be realists. I'm objectively lucky because I have all these things. It can be realists too. But man, you're going to learn a lot. The whole point of level three is predicting behavior. If you know their luck, you're going to be able to predict a lot of how they are in a relationship, how they are as a friend, how they are going to be at work. Fate, I think, is an interesting one to ask someone. And then there's other questions that seem

1:29:51silly, but actually have tremendous meaning. And level three is all about meaning. Okay, so the third answer for Lucky Thank You is that person who is afraid to answer. And I have asked this question of thousands of people and you get this bucket of, well, kind of. Now, this is very interesting because this tells you they're probably not that introspective. So it's one of two things. They actually don't know. They literally have not ever thought about it. And they will say to you, I've never thought about it. And they're literally sitting in front of you, re-analysing their entire life, trying to answer this question for you. They've never considered it. So that's also helpful. That's helpful. You know, if you're in a relationship and someone's not that introspective, that's good to know. Not good or bad, just good to know, especially if you value that. Like introspection is one of my core values. So you know, it might, might not be both well for me. Or second, they don't feel safe with you yet. It can be a hint that you went too, too fast. If someone says, I kind of, or I'm not sure, you might have jumped to level three too quickly,

1:30:56and they are not ready to share or they are embarrassed about something. They have shame or they have something in their past that they feel is very unlucky, but they don't feel ready to share it. Have they done studies on this? It's a particular question. I think only we have. Only you have. Richard Weisman has done a lot of research on luck specifically. And he, there's like a luck test you can give someone. We did this in our lab. So it's an official luck test to see how lucky you think you are. It's like a 10 question diagnostic and it asks all of these different variations of that question. So it is academically studied, but I don't think what's studied at least not yet is how your answer is going to dictate your life. Like I would love to know, maybe future research in our lab is if you consider yourself very lucky, do you make more money? Do you make less money? Is there any income? Are you older? Are you younger? Are you a child of privilege or not? So I think it's coming. I mean, I think that's where this excitement kind of comes from. At least it gets me excited as a as a behavior researcher. I was just looking at that

1:32:00study by Dr. Richard Weisman. He discovered that people who want to yes, I am lucky actually generate their own good fortune by acting very acting in very specific ways. They have a lot of anxiety. They have higher extraversion. They can talk to lots of people and make lots of friendships and relationships. High openness to experience, relentless optimism. That's very, very interesting. I have considered, I've really considered this doing a luck workshop where all I do in the workshop is help you harvest your own feelings of luck. It is so healing. It is so fulfilling to feel lucky to wake up in the day and feel lucky. It's better than gratitude, right? Gratitude is sort of shaming in its own way. I'm like kind of anti-gratitude, but feeling like you're really, really lucky is so empowering. And so I've thought about creating luck labs, like a little luck workshop where you can come and we're going to convince you that you're lucky because it's that good of investment in your feelings of happiness. I would like to ask the audience, I'm just super interested. I would like to ask all the people listening now. Do you guys feel lucky? I would like honest answers

1:33:05in the comment section. I know you just had to say that lucky people are going to have a better life. Just be completely honest. Just for pure research purposes. And you know what, I know people that don't feel lucky are going to be honest because they're going to be honest. And they're going to tell you exactly why. And they're going to get really mad at us because they're going to say that something really bad happened to them and how dare we tell them that luck is good. That's what's going to happen because I've heard them do it. Can you get mad at Vanessa and not me? No, get mad at him. There's fun. You get mad at me as fun. I have no show. But this is why I'm asking because I want to, I want to, I'm coming from one perspective from one experience that I've had in my life and I feel like I am grateful and I've been very privileged. So I would like to understand why other people do not feel lucky in their lives. And you know, I guess it would also be surprising to hear that some people have been through objectively horrific things. But they, some of them might still feel lucky. So that would be interesting as well. So I'll be reading the comments. And that is also fact versus frame. Okay. Right. So the way that we begin to rewrite our story. And I believe so much in self authorship, right? Yes, there's a story you tell yourself about yourself. You also

1:34:07are the author of your own life, right? You're the author of your own narrative. The way that we begin to take up the pen, like become the author of our own life is we ask ourselves questions about why do I have that idea? What is the evidence for that idea? The facts might be there, but our frame of them is different. So for example, take a breakup and I can almost always find out someone's contamination or redemption narrative if I ask them out of breakup. People with contamination narratives will almost always say the breakup nearly destroyed me. The big issue, I don't trust met anymore. I don't trust women anymore. You know, it just, it just took from me. I feel like a shell of myself and it stays that way. Everyone has a period of a bad breakup time, but they never get through that. That they feel like that, that breakup fundamentally changed them for the worse, whereas someone with a positive redemption narrative, even if it was a horrific breakup, they'll say, I will never do that again. That made me stronger. It was horrible. It was one of the worst times of my life, but I know, no, who not to choose and I know who to choose. It made me feel stronger.

1:35:09It's an anti-fragile piece. Would you give someone a second date, if on the first date they turned to and when you asked them the question, are you a lucky person? They went absolutely not. I probably wouldn't. Do you like to be so mad? You are so cut. They are going to get you, get out guys. You are so cut. You are so cut. It's a hypothetical. It's a trap. That's what it was. You are so mean. You are like, look, throw it in the fire. Don't worry, I got a wine bottle coming. I was thinking it. I was thinking. No, would you? Gosh, I'm asking you now. If someone, if I was on the first date and I said, are you a lucky person and they said to me, absolutely not. I'd be curious. Sure. I wouldn't leave the date. If they were just extremely pessimistic, I would probably arrive at this assumption that this is probably not going to be a match because that's not my inclination. It takes too much energy out of me.

1:36:12That is also because I think this is beautiful bridge to the next concept. Once you begin to uncover these narrative hints, you are talking about luck, you are talking about redemption or condemnation narrative, I believe in this is more art than science. There are five archetypes of these stories. I have harvested hundreds. I wouldn't say hundreds of narratives. It's actually quite hard to ask someone what is your self-narrative. It's very hard question, but there are questions that we can begin to talk about that do harvest it. I noticed patterns. They're the same narratives over and over again and they're about five of them. I think that we share an archetype. I think we do. No, maybe I'm flattering myself. The first archetype is the ambitious hero. I think this is us, but you'll tell me. The ambitious hero has had challenges and obstacles, but they feel that they're grit and resilience have been able to overcome. They struggle because they are never satisfied. What is an archetype? I got excited. This is not like a personality type. It's not like my

1:37:15or a breaker any a gram. Those are quite stable. This is a fluid archetype of how you're seeing your story in this moment. For example, I might ask you, if you had to write a memoir, what would the title of your memoir be? This is going to impact how I have conversations with people. This is going to impact how you have conversation with people, how you behave interpersonally, how you act at work. An ambitious hero is going to act very, very differently at work that a contented pragmatist. Is it going to impact who I'm attracted to platonically or romantically? Absolutely. It dictates your relationship patterns. Your conversational patterns, how you converse, how you bond, how you connect, and more importantly since then so-and-shan work conversations, how you work, how you view effectiveness, how you view efficiency. My founders, right? Ambitious hero founders are going to have the same struggles over and over again. They're going to be very different than the content of pragmatist founder. So the ambitious hero, what's that sort of internal monologue? Their internal monologue is, I got this. I can do this hustle, hustle more. More bigger, more, bigger, bigger, more. I can do that better. I can do that bigger.

1:38:15It's like we, I get shiny objects syndrome. It's like one of the nicer ways to talk about ambitious heroes, you know shiny objects syndrome. No. It's like a founder who won't stop trying new initiatives and keeps throwing new ideas on the table when they haven't finished their first one. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you have that? Well, yes, but I have put systems in place to make sure that it doesn't sink the company. It's Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos said, I've got enough ideas to sink the company. And he has to learn to release them at a cadence that the company can tolerate. So that's what I'm going to do. And that's beautiful because that's self-knowledge. And everything that we're talking about is self-knowledge, right? If you're able to talk this through, you have self-knowledge to go to your team. When I come to you with a new idea next week, say no. Yeah, yeah, don't let me do that. It's too much, right? So it behaviorally, if you are the ambitious hero, you know you dream, then you can burn out because you dream so big. We tend, like I tend to like work almost regulates me. Like when I'm working, I'm like, I'm being so productive. We are helping people, help more people, help all the people, right? Like it's too much. And so we can burn out from a

1:39:20productivity perspective. We have shiny objects and in conversation, relationships, people sometimes don't always understand our drive. Like we're so driven, we get accused of hustle culture a lot. And we can burn other people out by trying to bring them with us on how fast we want to work, how long we want to work. You know, those are not necessarily bad things, but they're traits, they're behavioral traits. Okay. And by the way, so this is number one, the ambitious hero. One way that you can kind of suss these out is asking a question, what character are you most like? What book, movie, or TV character are you most like? Not look like life choices, personality, core values. And I said pursuit of happiness, which is, yeah. Yeah, which is ambitious hero. Yeah, but why did you choose that character? Because he, the reason why I chose the character was because when I was 18, 19 years old and I was literally shoplifting food to feed myself, I watched that movie randomly. And I was in bed the day that day. And it really made me feel like like the journey I was on. You know, when he was in there, he was in the like disabled toilet with

1:40:23his kid. Yeah, the twelting. Yeah. And I remember like my life in shades felt a little bit like that at the moment, just, you know, kind of doing things to feed myself that would, you know, and keep the lights on and swerving these lion lords because my month, my rent was five months late. And all the kind of games I play to try and just survive. And then he went on to be successful. So it was, it gave me a lot of hope. So he's also black. Uh-huh. So it was really important in that interaction that I didn't assume about that character. I asked you why. And then you told me a story about what you saw and when you saw it. A really critical part of this exercise is that you asked someone about the character and then you say why? What traits? Because the traits that they say next are going to tell you every single thing about that person. For example, I, if I asked someone, you know, what, what person are you most like? And they say, mother Teresa, I said, oh, you know, why? You know, I might not agree with them. Maybe I don't see that. But whatever they say next is going to tell me a lot about how they view themselves, whether it's true or not. And this is

1:41:24the hardest part of level three. And it's the most inconvenient part of level three. You probably won't agree. Okay. There's a lot of times where people in my life have told me self narratives and I'm like, what? What's yours? What character are you most like? And why? Okay. So I relate most with Claire Dunphy from modern family, especially in her entrepreneurial years. Most people would be surprised to actually identify first as a mother, not an entrepreneur. Most of my day is with my kids. I'm a little awkward. I'm very neurotic. And so I resonate most with her. And that that ambitious working mom is sort of what I'm constantly struggling with constantly. Yeah. Especially as an ambitious hero, because I wanted to go both perfectly. No, I cannot. Yeah. So by the way, if you're having trouble with this question, this is the one way that I think AI can help. I have my own, you know, relationship with AI, but AI can be a great brainstorm partner. It can be a great conversational practice partner. It can be a great role playing partner. And this

1:42:27is actually one way that I like it. So if you're not sure if you're like, I don't know. I don't know what character I am. Go to AI and ask this. What book, movie, or TV character is most like me in the way that I treat you, especially if you have a relationship with your AI? I am film link. So for me, it was mom, entrepreneur, neurotic. My personality is how to try to represent my core values are what character is most similar to me. And it will pull a bunch of characters that are those traits. So this is the one way that it can help you sometimes brainstorm. Okay. The ambitious hero, right? We started with that. Yeah. Arca date number one. The second one is called the content. I called it the contented pragmatist again. These are a little more art than science. The contented pragmatist is somebody who likes it as it is. They're quite content, very happy with where things are. They don't really

1:43:29need to change it if it's not broken. They are not very ambitious because they're very grounded in where they are. They love habit and ritual and tradition in conversation. Relationally, they struggle when people push them to try harder or do more because they're like, I'm good. Life is good. Why would we change things? I have two very specific people in my life who are very annoyed by me as the ambitious hero because I have a new goal every month and I'm constantly like, they're like, I love smoothies or they make rick rinola and I'm like, you should bottle it up and sell it at farmers markets. And they're like, but why? And I'm like, but why not? Right. So, relationally, they're often seen as unambitious, but actually, they're just quite content. Interesting. Do you know someone like that? I do. I was just thinking also about just business generally and how when you're hiring teams or even in relationships, you can get a contented pragmatist holding back an ambitious hero. And I've often had friends come to me and say, like, I've got this big startup idea that I want to launch, but my girlfriend and my husband

1:44:32are telling me to be realistic. And they tend to be more a little bit more fear-based. It's not that they're negative, but they are so contented that they're very, very hyper-practical. I also think on a team, it is important to know what role will be best served by this. Ambitious roles, growth roles, rainmaker roles, leaders who are in a industry of change. Some like fiduciary, you know, I do a lot of finance conferences and I work with a lot of folks in banking. Sometimes ambitious heroes can really be crushed in those roles because there isn't a lot of fast-moving growth in those companies. A contented pragmatist can do really well in a very stable, traditional industry with a lot of regulation because they are very happy to live in that regulation. You might want someone might, I say might because it really depends on your company, but in a corporate culture, you know, you might want a contented pragmatist running your books. They're quite conservative. They're not going to make a big leap here, right? And they're also, they're like, let's keep it as it is, let's know what we're doing. Don't break, don't change

1:45:35if it's not broken, right? So you have to think about your roles in a hiring manager. It depends on how your what your company is like. And in terms of conversation tips, are there different tips for different archetypes? Yes. And ambitious hero, they are going to get so much dopamine talking about goals, talking about new, talking about progress. They are juiced by progress and they want to hear about progress too. So not only are they wanting to like, you know, I, when someone asks me, how are you? It takes everything in me to not share my metrics. Like, I know that's not socially acceptable. So I have to be like, I'm doing great. The business is exploding. And then I just stop, right? Because it would be weird if I was like, we have for 305 percent growth on Instagram, you know, like, right? Because we love ambition. I also love ambition and others. Like, I, when I hear about my friend's side, how sold it's growing, like, I'm, that's all my text, all my check and text. I'm just thinking about you is how's the biz? How's the traffic? How the book sales? How the movie sales? Like, I want to hear about growth. I can't have pragmatist.

1:46:35They want to talk about ritual. They want to talk about what works. They want to save our life, life's pleasures. They're very good at savoring. And by the way, this can be a wonderful relationship sometimes because sometimes the content of pragmatist reminds the ambitious hero. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. You've worked so hard. Like, just taking the view for a moment. And so they love gratitude. They love habit, ritual routine. They love to be honored for what works. They're the ones who will make a beautiful Thanksgiving dinner. And they want to have that three-hour dinner and save it and not talk about next year and not talk about goals and just save her this moment and talk about what they did last year and year before that. A little bit different. Okay? Okay. This is, I think, the most important one to talk about actually. I think it's the least understood of all the archetypes, which is the selfless helper. Okay? This is such a clear narrative. I almost always can predict it with in the first few minutes of conversation. And that is because selfless helpers, their entire story is about giving. Their entire reason for being is being

1:47:40of service. They almost always pick careers that are of service. They almost always pick careers teachers, coaches, trainers, nurses, doctors. And that is because they're so ingrained that to have worth is to help. And oftentimes where they can sometimes get into trouble is they don't feel worthy if they are not helping. And so they help so much there's nothing left. They have compassion burnout or compassion fatigue because they are giving and giving and giving and giving. They cannot say no. In a relationship, they are beautiful to be in a relationship with because they are givers. Right? They are, they're nurturers. They are giving. They're, they're, you know, a lot of parents can flip into selfless helpers once they become a parent. I've seen this happen with both moms and dads. The moment they have a baby, they flip into selfless helper because all the sudden their purpose is there is to take care of this little person. The problem is that they have, they have a really hard time saying no. The people pleases. Yeah. They have, they struggle with

1:48:44boundaries. They say yes to too much and they put themselves last. Can be both good and bad in a relationship. And so if you're in a relationship with them, sometimes half of it is just letting them stand up to protect themselves. It's not good too much. And I mentioned this very briefly earlier, but I have many friends who are selfless helpers and they attract takers. Right? They attract high conflict people. You know what I mean by high conflict. Oh, okay. Yeah. A high conflict person is Bill Eddie's work. He estimates that 10% of the population is a high conflict person. High conflict person is someone who thrives with drama. They create difficulty in their relationships. They almost like to have difficult conversations. They thrive with that kind of drama. They see an absolute. So they often speak in like blocker white. They see no nuance. They weaponize emotions. These days, they often sometimes use um, psychology to their advantage by taking advantage

1:49:50of people. And the worst high conflict people, and this is where I've noticed it in my work when I was listing and reading Bill Eddie's work, I was like, oh, they actually are enablers. They can get other people to do their dirty work for them. So they can sometimes put a seat in a selfless helpers ear and a selfless helper will go, ah, how dare they? And they'll go fight for you. And so sometimes selfless helpers, they're roped into things that are not necessarily what they should be doing because they are standing up for the person they care about. And so if you're dealing with a selfless helper in terms of conversation. Yes. Sometimes they even think talking about themselves is taking. Okay. So you might sometimes in conversation like you're asking them a question and they're oh, no, no, enough about me. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, let's talk about you. Yeah. Oh, I want to help you. How can I help you? It's so funny. Like my friends who are selfless helpers, I cannot get them to tell me what I can help them with because all they want to do is check in on me. I'm like, no, no, I really do want to hear about you. So sometimes they won't take the ball because they're worried it's selfish. And so sometimes getting them to open up can be hard because they feel like their

1:50:51needs are not important, but their needs are very important. Like they're such beautiful people. So I think in conversation, the greatest gift we can give a selfless helper is letting them know that you're understood. I value you and getting to know you is not taking from me. It's giving to me. I have to tell my friends, it makes me feel good to help you. It makes me feel good to hear about what's going on for you. You're actually giving to me by telling me about yourself, not taking from me. So we have to gift to them. I think we have to be extremely conversationally generous with them. Do you know, do you know anyone? Yes, I do. Oh, lovely. Yeah. And it all tracks with everything you said. That's right. And corporate, like I write all these applied to work. These are great. If you have a not always, but often managers can do great things as selfless helpers because they're so attuned to others that they are very good at bringing out performance, not always, but I've seen really, really amazing managers who they know the ROI, they know metrics like they're falling their KPIs, but they're so good at finding how does this person need to be helped? How could this person

1:51:55be their best selves? Oh, that person has a great expert power. They're so good at that that they bring up performance in everyone. But they might avoid that difficult conversation. These people tend to be a little bit conflict avoidant. They can be conflict avoidant, but they're very good at framing everything as we're in this together. So yes, they can be conflict avoidant, but the really good managers who are excellent conversationalists, they are able to frame bad news and hard feedback as I want to help you. The reason I'm giving you this feedback is because I so want you to succeed. And the person receiving end goes, I trust you, I know that. Okay. So yes, if they're not excellent conversationalists, it's true they can be avoidant. But if they learn how to be assertive, and by the way, learning, you can be assertive, then they're tremendous in conversation because they're people trust them because they come in a good place. Okay. The creative disruptor. So the creative disruptor. This is my most challenging archetype. So I'm really going to try to talk

1:52:56about this archetype in a positive way. Creative disruptors do not like rules. Their entire ethos is breaking things. They want to disrupt. They want to go anti-norm. They want to be counter-cultural. They're the ones who are like, I don't need a blueprint. And they, they in me in conversations is not always the best. There's probably the ones in the comments who are like, well, this doesn't apply to me because of all these reasons because they want to push. They want to challenge. And this is wonderful because they often are the really creative thinkers. Right? They often are the ones who are thinking outside the box the most. They're often the ones who are willing to challenge the way something has always been done. The problem is is sometimes that can rub people the wrong way. And sometimes these folks can thrive over conflict in the way of it. It's just it's fun for them. Like it's fun to negotiate. It's fun to push. Elitigators, my litigators who are watching, I find that my litigators tend to fall into this category or very disruptive entrepreneurs.

1:53:59I know there's ones on this show. I've listened to the interviews with them and I go, oh, that's a creative disruptor. It's someone who they're not only building something, but they're not quite ambitious here because they want to break things. They want to build it and break it. They want to reinvent the entire system. And they're doing it, you know, Edward Snowden is one of the examples I give in the book of like he wanted to change something and also he he wanted to like stick it to the man. Like he wanted to break the system that he was in. Hmm. Okay. Do you struggle with this? Do you like this interviews? They're very interesting. They're really good in interviews. I actually interviewed someone the other day that was like that. So interesting because they have a contrarian view by nature. Everything they say is like deeply contrarian. But I think I think having people like that that are challenging around. They're like default is challenge is quite useful. Yes. It helps me be sort of refined my my own points of view. And they live as dream killers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're dream killers. It can be amazing. They can be exhausting. So in conversation, it's just it's good to go and prepare to know, ah, I need this. I want to get stronger. I want

1:55:01to be anti fragile. They'll break for you to make you stronger. Or like I'm a delicate flower right now. I cannot do the dream killing. I'm exhausted by it. It's a fine line between that like pessimism. Not always, but sometimes they are pessimistic. Not always. We have a creative disruptor friend who I did an Instagram post about this. And I said, you know, I have a friend who always says, I hate everything. Text. I hate everything. I hate everything. And he Instagram knew it was him and served him the video and he texted me. He's like, is this me? And I was like, yes. Instagram. Instagram. Instagram. Okay. The last one is one we actually already touched on, which is the unlucky struggling. So this is someone with a contamination narrative. And they feel that no matter what they've done, they are unlucky. They are struggling. They often feel stuck. They often feel misunderstood. They often feel overlooked. And the problem with unlucky struggles, the character you want to think of is like George Castanza from Seinfeld.

1:56:01Right. Like, oh, everything is bad for me. They can be hilarious, but they are tortured. They are tortured. And in conversation, it's really hard for ambitious heroes to not try to convince them. They're not unlucky. My biggest challenge with my unlucky struggles in my life is to not try to flip them into something that they're not or try to convince them that they are actually lucky. They also in conversation can be very funny. They can make fun of themselves there. So humble. They're low self-esteem. Some of the best comedians are unlucky struggling. And so they're beautiful to be around, but sometimes you wish that they had more confidence. The confidence you see in them, they had it too. If you're in a conversation with one of these people that you don't gel with, is there a, I mean, you talk about it a little bit in the book, but one of the ways to get out of a bad conversation without attending people. Oh my goodness. It's called the graceful exit. So there's a behavior concept, the peak end effect that we remember the first few minutes

1:57:03of a conversation and the last few minutes of conversation. But we tend to focus a lot on the first impression. Peak end. Like, like, so when you're remembering something, you remember the peak of a conversation and the end of the conversation. Yeah. But we also, of course, the first impressions are incredibly important as well. We tend to over index on the first impression. So we think a lot about our first few minutes are opening line. Maybe the highlight, but we don't really think about the end, but actually that's what we leave people with. So I have a formula. You know, I love a formula. This calls my anxiety. When I'm in a conversation, it's time to go, right? Either we're not feeling it, like we're not, we're just not clicking or like we got to go. One, it first is a future queue. So it's future queue, plus complement or action. So a future queue is when you ask about or mention something coming in the future. The reason for this is it's a subtle way to shift the brain into not here later. Okay. So let's roleplay. Yeah, let's do it. We're at a party with having some wine and things get a little bit awkward. We ran out of things to say to each other. Do you have any fun plans coming up this weekend? Do you need anything? Uh, this is wine bar across town that I'm really into. So I'm probably just going to go there.

1:58:05I think with some friends. Oh my gosh. Well, I hope it's lovely. Make sure to try. I love a shardonnay. I don't know if you like white wine. Be sure to try it. Future queue. So I just asked you about a future and I'm going to wish you well on it, which already gets us in the future mode. And then I'm going to end on a complement or an action. It was so lovely talking to you. I hope you have a great time with that wine bar. I'm going to go get some more coffee. Have you got any fun plans coming up? I have so many fun plans coming up. My daughter's just started school and so we're having a celebratory Labor Day weekend this weekend. What'd you love to talk about? I don't know if she's that soon. That's a signature question. What have you always wanted to learn? See, I'm, what if they just go straight back in though? Because that's happened to me before where I've tried to. Okay, this is where the action and the complement that that second piece of the future queue is we mentioned future and you're right. They might, they might keep going with it. The action and complement is really important. So wrapping up the conversation sounds like it's been so wonderful talking to you. I'm using an exit voice. Do you hear the exit voice? But our tone really matters here. So it's been so wonderful talking to you. I hope that goes great this weekend or be sure to connect with me on LinkedIn. I was so happy we were able to

1:59:08trade numbers. So you're mentioning the action that's going to come later and it's using that closing voice and then the action. I'm going to go grab more coffee. I'm going to go say hi to the host. I'm going to run to the ladies room. I'm going to let head home. Right, like then they cannot. Right, like you've ended it then and you also can use non-brible cues here. So the moment I take a step back, the moment I angle my body towards the door, our brain subtly sees, they are literally trying to physically disengage. So usually I pair those with those subtle non-brible cues of like a slow back up and I angle towards the door. And remember, you can be assertive with this. The worst kind of last impression is a lingering awkwardness. There is nothing worse than a, well this has been good. It's been good for you. It's been good for me well. So, uh, go, oh, those are the worst. So be assertive with this. If you want to end it, if you're feeling it's the end, do it. It's been so great talking to you. I'm going to grab some more coffee. Good luck at the wine bar this weekend. Have so much fun. Right? Like be assertive with it or else it will linger and that is

2:00:09just kryptonite for charisma. On this point of being assertive, oh yes. I'm still going to send friends here today about people that have aura and risk. Oh yeah. Who has aura and risk? Who does? I don't know. I don't really know what the words mean. I kind of know what aura means, but I don't know what really know what risk means. So I'm curious like how you define those terms and like how does one cultivate aura and risk? Okay. I think aura and risk. The only reason this is front of mind is is my daughter asked me. She heard one of my YouTube videos and she said what is charisma? She asked me that. And I was like, ooh, like she's eight. They said charisma or risk or aura is someone that you really want to be around. It's when they walk into a room, you want to go over and talk to them, you want to sit near them, you want to listen to them, you want to work with them, you want to play with them. And I said, do you know anyone like that? And she goes, oh yes. And she named so interesting. She named two kids in her class that I had already identified as very charismatic. Like I knew, I in my mind, I knew who the charismatic kids were in her class.

2:01:12I had, I had popped them, right? I saw them there. The kids you really wanted to be around. They have this aura about them. And she named those exact two kids. So I think that definition works. It's someone that we are drawn to verbally, physically. I think also some of it is kind of physical. And then there's something hormonal there as well. But it's someone we're drawn to. Okay. So based on the 20 years of research you've done, if you were trying to teach me to have aura and risk, what are like the basics? Be really easy to talk to. Okay. Right. So the point of level one is to put someone at ease. We like to be people around people who are one clearly signaling. We don't like people who are mute with their body language. We don't like people who under signal. We like people who clearly like us. Right. So we have to be very allowed with our liking. So saying things like it's always so fun talking to you. Or he always have the best stories. Oh, he always make me laugh. I love when you're put on my team. So clearly signaling like and

2:02:14verbally. I think we there's something called them signal amplification bias, which is this bias that we have that we think we're being really obvious with our cues, but we are not in fact being obvious. We think that people know that we like them. Of course, they know that we like them. But actually people underestimate liking right the liking gap. So we like people who are very clearly broadcasting likes. I have a funny story if I may. So this hit very close embarrassingly to home. Because of my job, I don't know what this happens to you. My friends often ask me to suss out their partners, like potential partners. So like a friend will be like, hey, I met a new guy. Can you go out to know with us and tell me what you think? Did that hit you off? Absolutely no. Oh my god. Nobody asked me. So I get this a lot. And by the way, I'm just a regular person. So I'm always like, are you sure you really want to know what I'm? Yes, they were so I go on a lot of like second or third little go see coffee dates to see to suss out. But I don't know. It makes you feel needed. It makes me feel needed. Okay, I also love

2:03:18eating, dropping on like the day conversation. So I really want you to meet this guy. Let's call him Schmobbert. Okay. And so we go on this dinner and we have like a Mediterranean platter and he was okay. You know, it's like, okay, he's nice, but I wasn't like green flag green flag. You know, it's kind of like me. So the next day I get the call. She's like, hey, what did you think? And I'm about to say he's only okay when she goes, you know what, he just loved you. It's like, oh what? She said, oh, you know, he thought you were so funny and he already bought your audible book and he just loved talking to you. Like the most I started to like him more. Like it was so embarrassing because as she was telling me all these things about how he liked me, I was like, you know, he's a great guy. He's clever. He's so smart. He liked my, he liked my jokes really. She's like, yeah, he just, you know, he just really had a good time with you. And I felt

2:04:23like I liked him more in that moment. And I was horrified by my own response. And I realized we so want to be liked that when someone clearly signals liking, it makes us like them more, right? So we can be charismatic. One is we send clear signals of liking, but also two. And we talked about this a little bit last time is fundamentally 82% of our impressions of people are based on warmth and competence. So people who are first and is first signaling, I'm open, I'm friendly, and then competent, I'm capable, I'm efficient, I'm effective, make us feel like I'm in good hands. In this way, every human being we first meet, we're trying to answer two questions. Can I trust you and can I rely on you? So the second thing that care is not at people are doing is they're signaling, you can trust me and you can rely on me. I'm going to get it done. I'm going to only speak when I know something. I'm going to be assertive. I'm going to carry us to this conversation. I think that sort of this came after cues in a good way, because cues is very much about picking your signals, but conversation is about

2:05:27being a bit assertive about the plan, right? Like if you read this book, you are going to feel in control in conversation. You're going to feel like you're approaching a conversation and you know what you want to do. If you have intention, we like that. Care is not a people like, they can they carry us, right? Like they're like, we got this. We're going to do level. I'm going to do a level. I'm going to do dream killing. And if I like you, if I like you, we're going to talk about your character. And so I think that that plan is a secret door into charisma. Is there anything else that people accidentally do that holds them back from being someone of high aura? Yes. They try to be impressive. Now, I know we talked about this before, but here's what happens when you go into the conversation, trying to sound smart, trying to impress people with your accolades in your background, is you actually end up creating distance. I have a story where this felt very, very real. So I was living in Austin, Texas. I moved since then, but I was in Austin, Texas. And I was invited to a VIP party. She lives down at the beach in LA. So if anyone wants

2:06:30to do lunch or dinner or breakfast, it's Vanessa. She is Oh, she had a number in the comments section. Exactly. So I was in Austin and I was invited to this VIP party. And I was like, Oh, man, like, what? Why am I being invited? So imposter syndrome. So we get there. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I know that person's YouTube channel. Like I know that person. Like the people I immediately recognized. And I'm like, and then of course, like within the first five minutes, the leader of this group says, we're going to get in a circle. And we are going to introduce ourselves. And this is like, so we get in a circle. And the first person basically is like, I'm a billionaire. And I invented the internet or something like that. And the second person is like, I'd love to know what they actually said. I was like, it was so impressive. That's what you had. That's what I was like, like it was so impressive. It hurt, you know, and I was like, okay, okay, this first person is all right. The second person is like, I cured cancer, right? Like, like, like, amazing, like,

2:07:35and it was just like person after person. It was like getting more and more impressive. And like, it's slowly coming to me. And I was like, everyone was trying to be impressive. Right? Like, they were saying things that were meant to shock and wow and aw you. It gets to me. And I was like, my name is Vanessa. And I'm a recovering awkward person. And I helped smart awkward people with my books at my YouTube channel. And everyone laughed and took a deep breath. Now, I have other accolades that I could have shared. But I was like, it's nothing in comparison. And also, I just wanted to be a little vulnerable. So I said, and I don't know why I was invited to this party. And everyone laughed, right? It was like a little bit of vulnerability. Every single person after me said, I'm a recovering awkward person. So like, they also were able to feel awkward. So it changed the nature of the rest of the invites, the rest of the introductions. And then afterwards, the circle like breaks up for networking. And most people came over to me, not the billionaire, not the cure of cancer,

2:08:35not the saving the earth, climate change guru. But wanted to talk to me about awkwardness and about my YouTube channel and about their smart, but they feel uncomfortable. And I realized like, I was just the easiest person to talk to in that circle. You have aura for us. You have a raise. I was the easiest person to talk to in that circle. And so I think that if we have aura for that. So you parlay that when I'm doing my makeup is done. Do you have aura when my makeup is done? I mean, I don't I don't know. Do I? Okay. So I think that I just share that because we don't have to put so much pressure on ourselves to be impressive. In fact, the really impressive people, I don't know. I haven't met that many billionaires. But the ones I've met, most of them are quite humble. And they're quite, they downplay how successful they are because they've already made it. And so I think if we all just put less pressure on ourselves to just connect, that would be easier.

2:09:37It does really track. I was thinking about the people in my life that have aura. And they're not the people that have are the most successful, the most accomplished. They are the ones that you would most like to spend time with for whatever reason. Yeah, they're easy. And by the way, it's back and forth. Like you can be introverted and extra or extroverted. You don't have like the people I think think that master conversations are extroverted. Actually, that's not usually the case. Sometimes extroverts fall into their own traps with computational narcissism. Amberverts introverts do really well. But one of the other sort of definitions of aura is the person who, I don't know, they just seem to take up more space. They seem to speak slower and be you kind of like see them walk across a room. What is that? And like how are they cultivating that like that kind of aura? I think there's I this is my guess. I have also thought about this. Come and someone walks into a room and you're just like Michelle Obama is like that. Oh, I never met her. I never met her. But like I can only imagine right or becoming Tony Robbins as well. He had serious. For sure. Yeah. I think it's winner energy. I think when certain people walk into a room and they

2:10:41have claimed their space. I think it's internal and external. I think physically and this has been studied. They are physically taking up more space whether they're short or tall in that winners, they have more space between their ears and their shoulders. They take up more space between their torso and their arms. They literally claim more space physically. Right. So if I were to like do the entire interview and I've seen people do interviews in your chair where they're taking up as little space as possible, you you you aren't as drawn to this. Right. And so I think that physical, there's a physical taking up and they're micro movements. Like I it's not walking in like with my arms up. It's it's micro, right. It's like the a slight down the shoulder. It's a slight up up ahead. And when I do that, it affects everything about me. Like it affects my vocal tone. One thing that I think about a lot is maximum resonance point. Maximum resonance point is a part of your voice that is the lowest end of your natural range that signifies pride that signifies calm. So for example, when I'm afraid or or a little bit nervous, like I'll tend to go a little bit higher in my

2:11:43vocal range. And if I were to do the entire presentation in this tone of voice or I was talking to this, it would be horrible. Right. You would not want to listen to it. And that's because I'm tightening my vocal cords. And when someone's very anxious, they tighten their shoulders, they tighten their neck, they tighten their chin. It's more of a loser feeling, right. And you're also speaking a little bit faster than oh, I will. Oh, interesting. I didn't even notice it. Yes. I think I was. Yeah, I'm rushing, rushing. Yeah. And I had less breath. Like I'm actually out of breath after doing that. So when we don't have breath, or speaking too quickly, my vocal cords are tense. You can hear it. And they're taking up less even vocal space, right. Winner is use this maximum resonance point. So we can actually try it if you want to. So I want it at the very top of your, I mean, you're going to take in a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath. So sounds like this. Hello. Okay, I'm a little bit sick. Hence why my voice might sound a bit different today. So I'm a little bit deeper than normal, but hello. Horrible. Yeah, that was embarrassing. Horrible. Yeah. Right. But I hear, I listen and on Zoom calls and I hear people, that's their very first word. Like they literally hold their breath and they say, good morning. Hello. Hello,

2:12:49everyone. Hi. Ooh. You were actually giving away your vocal competence because I'm so far away from my maximum resonance point. My maximum resonance point is when I speak on the out breath. So my vocal cords are relaxed. So now listen to the difference. So here's the high. Hello versus hello. Both me, but you're going to treat me totally differently. So now take a deep breath and say hello on the out breath. Hello. Right. Now that sounds more like you because you usually use your maximum resonance. Right. You're very good at that. And I've noticed that in work culture, people who use their maximum resonance point, they are listened to more. They are easy to talk to because we want to listen to them. They take up more, or more, risk because we're like, ah, because we can hear their competence. We can hear their relaxation. And so vocal cues are such an important aspect of charisma. You know, all these questions are beautiful, but how you say your words is just as important as what you say. If I were to ask, so, like, what's your persupassion project, I guess?

2:13:50I can hear you. The suck is so terrible. You know, like my lack of vocal care, you immediately hear and it tunes you out. Right. So I can, if I don't have good intention here, it does leak out. That's why earlier when you asked me like this intention matter, I said, if you have intention to care and try, it's going to matter. But if you don't, if you're not trying, people will hear it. And a lot of that is voice. I think that very charismatic people, they're imbuing their voice with that winning calm confidence. And we want to catch it. What about the rest of me? So we've talked about some of the specific conversational questions at the three stages. We've talked about vocal tone. Is there any other part of being a great conversation list? And I'm thinking now about, I guess we talked about hands and taking a space, but even eye contact, I think about this a lot. It takes a lot of, dare I say, confidence for me to like look you in the eyes like this Vanessa and ask you a question. That is because when we are making eye contact chemically, we're producing oxytocin,

2:14:53which is great for connection, but also you are not able to process as much. The reason why eye contact is quite complicated. And I think sometimes the clips on social media, I have, I don't like clips very much because it takes off the nuance. Eye contact, yes, universally, it's good when we have oxytocin, but also I cannot do complex thinking when I'm doing this with you. Right, like when I'm trying to remember something, I meet look away. If you were to ask me a complex math problem, I look away. And so in conversation, we actually do not want 100% eye contact. We don't even want 70% eye contact. 60, 70% eye contact is more ideal in Western cultures. But if someone is deep thinking or they are social processing, you actually do want less eye contact because they're, they're trying to access their memories. If I'm doing this, I'm purely focused on the connection, but we're in an interview. I want to, what does my work say? What was the research? What was the number? And so that is why it can be sometimes uncomfortable is because it's not allowing your brain to think. It's just about connection. But when you're delivering, like I understand the deliberation, you look away when you deliver, I do that like I'm doing right now. But then when I

2:15:54deliver the point, oh yeah, I come back, is that? You know why? Because one, yes, you're trying to connect. But two, when you are delivering, you want to watch my face to see, do I believe you? Am I raising my eyebrows? Am I showing you disgust? Am I like, I don't believe it? I harden my lower lid. So the reason why we'll often like, we're processing, processing, and then we're delivering is because two things are happening at once. We're trying to connect. I want you to hear my point and feel it with oxytocin. But also, I want to see, do you believe me? Or are you raising your eyebrows? So I'm making more eye contact with you because I'm trying to see where your interest lies. Whereas you're looking at your eye package, you're trying to get to the next question, you want to make sure that we're covering everything. That's why this is not natural. This isn't usually happen natural conversation. But it's also when you're in conversation, you're better off making eye contact in the first few seconds of interaction. So right when you're on that greeting, oh, it's so good to see you hopping on video or in person because you're giving that burst of oxytocin. But then you're okay to look away. You're okay to process. You might want to make your

2:16:59eye contact most when you're trying to suss out how is this person receiving this? That also makes you easy to talk to because if I notice that you're lighting up about something, I can pivot more into that. If I notice that you're like, oh, that's horrible. I want to be easy to talk to by pivoting away from it. And when you're talking to me, what is the best way to be a good listener? Because some people go like they interrupt the guy, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you've got other people who will nod and really encourage and cheerly when you're talking. And then you'll have to like, some people they don't know they're doing it, but they start to scowl. I know. Yes. I can make it for you. That really bothers me. But I struggle with that a little bit, just personally because people please are. So when someone's like, I actually have a friend who defaults to the disgust micro expression, he doesn't even realize he's doing it. It's a punctuator. Facial punctuator is a nonverbal habit. It doesn't actually mean anything emotionally. It's just how they are at rest. I've had to tell myself he doesn't actually feel disgusted. So you're talking about warmth.

2:18:00All the listening cues are about warmth. So listening cues are nodding, triple nod, that in India, Bulgaria and Pakistan, nodding is a little bit different. So I always try to make that note. A head tilt is a universal warmth signal because we're exposing our ear up to the sky. Alinean is a warm and competent both actually because I'm trying to literally get closer to you to understand nor deeply. A competent cue where you're listening is a lower lid flex. So if I flex my lower lids at you, this is a universal response. When we flex our lower lids, we're trying to see something better, right? If I say, do you see that over there? We harden our lower lids. What we're doing biologically is we're hooding our eyes to block the light so I can see more detail. So when you're speaking and someone goes, they are trying to deeply understand you. It is not positive or negative. It is a cue of intense focus. Take note. Because whatever you just said has triggered something in their brain that they're going, right? So when I'm giving a presentation to a C-suite and have a couple or investors or

2:19:04important people and I see someone do a lower lid flex, I have a choice. I can take note of what I just said and bookmark it or I can stop and do dynamic presenting. We haven't even talked about presenting, but I can switch. Does this make sense? Are we good? Any questions here? Let me give you another example of this. So you can also look for these cues which also makes you a pleasure to listen to because I am so deeply listening that I'm trying to respond to your emotional reaction to what I'm saying. I think that is a really, we sort of touched on it earlier, but I think it's a really unappreciated part of being a good conversation list is being dynamic based on the cues you're getting back. Yes, yes. Actually, please let's double click on this for a second because I think my planners, my planners were watching are like, okay, I got a plan, Vanessa, I got it, I got my questions. What I don't want you to do is have the plan, ask the question, and then check after the next one. Right. The whole point of these is actually to be quite dynamic. It might be

2:20:05that you ask, what's your personal passion project and you spend hours talking about that? What a pleasure, what a delight. That means you're being dynamic in that, whoa, you're like, you both lit up on it, you can go there, you can dive deep. So I want you to have a plan, but I also want you to be dynamic with it. Like, both can be true. Vanessa, of all the things that we have discussed, is there anything we haven't talked about that we should have talked about that appears? Within your new, but conversation, how to connect with anyone and make every interaction count. There is one thing that we didn't get to touch on that I think can help you prepare for good conversation just very practically, which is you are going to be asked for in questions. We talked about this earlier. I want you to, if you are willing, write down the questions you are asked the most often. Everyone kind of gets similar questions depending on their job, their industry, where they are in the world. What are the questions you're asked most often? And how can you do better? And then think of what are gifts to the other person? Not just interesting for you, right? Like,

2:21:08not just like, oh, well, you know, an interesting fact about me, but like, what is a story or an anecdote or an answer that's going to let the other person be like, oh, me too, or really, or what got you into that? Or why did you do that? Because then you're actually your answer is doing two things. It's interesting, but it's also conversationally generous. You're not creating a dead end for yourself. And this is so true because there is a most interesting thing about everybody and that most interesting thing will be get the same sort of questions. Yes. There's someone that I know and Ches is a very interesting career, but one part of a career she went to Bible school for a couple of years. And I've never met anybody that went to Bible school for three years. So I imagine this person always gets asked about Bible school for three years. Like, because everybody wants to know. Three years of real life. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I remember this just thinking there, like, that's the question that everybody, when you introduce it, they were like, Bible school. Tell me about it. Yeah. Or, and I give this example in the book is my friend Jason. He can't smell or taste. And he's always a dinner with people. That's all he does all the time. He's an editor of Entrepreneur Magazine.

2:22:09And so he is always a dinners. And he brings up on purpose. He will say, what are you ordering? I feel like I ask about food all the time. And he goes, well, actually, I have no, I have no sense of taste or smell. So what's your favorite thing? And what should I taste? If I could taste something, what would you have me taste? And it produces incredible conversations so much so that I was talking to my friend Nicole Lapin. She goes, I know Jason. And she began to tell me about his interesting stories. She remembered his interestingness from that answer. So even like, where are your settings? Are you doing coffees or in shinkofianic notes? Are you always at meals? Are you right? So you can also set yourself up and them up for success with those interesting answers. So have a script for the questions that you can ask the most that offer gifts to those that are on the receiving end of that answer. Yeah. And the last thing I would say is this is a plan. And the entire goal of this is for you to feel more in control, for you to feel more confident. You know, I think as someone who wasn't confident for a long time and who had very awkward conversations for a long time, just knowing that I had a good intent helped me a lot. So this is the plan, but also feel free to totally deviate

2:23:14from the plan that when you're in the moment, if you're feeling excited and interested and engaged, go with it. If you're feeling, I don't like this person, I don't feel this person, we are off. You can leave the conversation. Who did you write this book for, Vanessa? So if they're, you know, if they've gone to the stage in the conversation and they're thinking, should I get that book or not? Who is it for? This is for people who want to stop dreading small talk. Dread is was a real motivation for me because so many of my students would say, oh, I have to go to the networking event. I am dreading talking to my boss. I hate those first five minutes of my team call. Oh, I don't know what to talk about on a date. First dates are horrible. First dates can be fun. If you have a conversational plan, even if it's not your person, they can still be fun. Conversation can be not awkward. It can be great at the start of a meeting if you know how to do it. And so I would like to get rid of the dread in your life. I would like to get rid of the awkward as in your life because and the deeper meaning is we're in a loneliness epidemic. And I think if we don't remember how good the joy of conversation is, we won't do it.

2:24:17And so I can take away the dread of conversation and give you beautiful conversation. With your person or not, you're going to feel us lonely. It kind of sounds like it's for all of us. I think it's for all of us. What a wonderful book. And what a perfectly timed book. At a time when AI and computers are robbing us of the joy of human conversation. And I think increasingly kids are going to struggle with conversations. I mean, people are saying this already. Teachers say to me that they see their kids in class and they don't know the basic skills of how to relate to each other through conversation. So a great book, I think, for parents. It was meant to be now. It was meant to be now. It was meant to be. It took you a long time, right? Many years. 20 years. Wow. I'm glad it's here. Conversation. How to connect with anyone and make every interaction count. I'm going to link it below. If anyone wants to go and buy it right now. What a wonderful book, Vanessa. Congratulations. I'm going to thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's finally here. Thank you for helping me bring it to the world. It's okay. You deserve everything. You have such a phenom. Oh my gosh. I hardly obsess with people. That's it. We have a closing tradition.

2:25:20Where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving it for. The question left for you is, do you feel like there are things you sacrificed in your personal life to build your success that you regret and wish you could now get back? Yes. I briefly mentioned that I moved and I moved to be closer to family. I'm not because I think I sacrificed friendship and family relationship in the hustle. You know, we moved to Austin for work. I moved to Austin for work and I left my family. I don't regret Austin because I had some great growth there, but I regret being away from my family when my children were very, very little. It was really hard to have babies without my mom, without my sister. And so I wish I could have figured that out a little bit differently, but I'm here now. And what is it you wish you could get back? I felt very alone as a new mom.

2:26:27And I don't think that helped me or my children. I wish I could get back a time to feel more communal, you know, having a baby is such a beautiful thing for family and friends. And it was it was very lonely because I just didn't have a lot of people around me. And now you're here. And now I'm back. I'm by the beach in LA. I'm back. My sister is at my house right now. Oh really? With my kids, yes. It's good to have you in town. It's so exciting and I will come maybe. I don't believe you. It's enough to say. I'm not going to invite you to anything. Conversation, how to connect with anyone and make every interaction count. Please do go by this book. Very important to Vanessa and also very important to me by way of that. And that's a brilliant, brilliant book. Well, I think that we all need Vanessa. Thank you. We're done. Thank you.

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