Lindsay Clancy Jurors Speak Out, Describe Holdout As “Arrogant," Prosecution As “Harsh”

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2:07In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author, Patreon Matters, and her husband Michael, mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide. Dear Hunnies, this is goodbye. By the time you get the shalliter book, Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to Death of an Artist on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there folks, welcome on TJ. That's Robes. In an episode I guess we should call Amy was right about everything. Isn't that what Trump likes to say? Trump was right about everything. He has some logos and whatnot. Some hats and some merchandise. This really is. Amy was right about everything. Now I'm giving you overwhelming credit here. I was on board with a lot of this, but the jurors and the Lindsey Clancy case are speaking.

3:08I am shocked that they were seeing things from day one exactly how we were seeing. Yes, and I will say that it's not that I was right. It's just that I'm a woman. And I think that a lot of us were not group think we don't all think alike. But there are certain things that just we receive in a specific way, especially mothers, especially anyone who's been through it. And it was really yes validating to learn from the jurors, three female jurors, including the four person, what they were thinking throughout the trial was very much aligned with what we were thinking and what definitely I was saying out loud as we were watching the trial take place. Yeah, and that somebody's going to make a meme out of that. What you just said. Not saying I was right, it's just that I'm a woman. Same thing. Same fucking thing. As well, we're saying, but yes, folks, we are this was fascinating. We were all curious after what seven days of deliberations ended up with a hung trial,

4:0840 plus hours or whatever it was. We were curious what was going on in there. And we did know that there was one holdout juror. Now we were getting more, we're getting more and more insight. Robes, the prosecution should be embarrassed. Yeah. They should really go back to the drawing board. And robes, I was shocked. They lost the jury in opening statements. Yes. They lost them as soon as they started saying, hi, I'm the prosecutor. They lost us in the opening statement because look, you can still, and there are plenty of women, plenty of mothers out there who think Lindsey Clancy should be behind bars. And to start off making her seem like a villain, a monster, when all of the evidence and all of the witnesses painted a completely different picture of this woman. And so it felt, it felt cold, unnecessarily cruel because she's admitting she killed her children. So you don't need to pile on in that sense.

5:10Cold and cruel are words they use to describe the prosecution. If you're a prosecutor, you're trying a case, the last thing you want is for the jury to actually look at you and think you're cold, cold-hearted, rude, unprofessional. These were all things jurors are describing the prosecution as. Robes, and I, because as we watched, we posted about this case every single day because we watched pretty much every single thing. Every time we did an episode, we left this space, maybe the jury is seeing it differently. But if we were sitting there, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, Robes, they just filled in all the blanks. Yes. We were right. Yes. They were filling the same stuff. It was very validating to hear that they were experiencing the trial, the attorneys, the witnesses, and the testimony very much like we were. And it was shocking to me that the prosecution from the get-go didn't understand that it was not a good tactic to go all bulldog on this woman in a wheelchair who's sobbing throughout the trial.

6:17We said it was far-fetched. Those two things just didn't work. It's okay to still want a prosecutor. Yes. But you have got to show some level of acceptance, acknowledgement that this woman was struggling. They never did it. Yes, exactly. I think it was obvious she had mental health struggles. But to try and take that away or to take that off the table didn't compute. And it made me think, and certainly it seems like it made the jurors feel like we were looking at two different scenarios and two different people so that I couldn't accept their version because it was so out of touch with reality that I couldn't get on board with what they were saying. Robes, we questioned ourselves and saying, well, maybe they're seeing it differently. They weren't. So three jurors sat down with Boston, ten. Was it one of the local reporters there who had been covering and has seen these women and the women have seen her. You could tell even though they weren't didn't interact during the trial, there was a familiarity to some degree. They had seen each other every day. So three of them there, one of them being the four person.

7:20We're going to share with you the quotes. The very important ones from this interview, the sit down and then Robes are going to break them down. So start about the prosecution. This was the one ropes from the very beginning and talking about the prosecution lost us from opening statement. Yes, one of the jurors said they found the prosecution founded to be harsh, very, very harsh. I think that they had no character witnesses to Lindsay being a bad mother. You're presenting all these medical professionals. I found it to be biased right out of the gate. And I also found them to be kind of unprofessional and just without a heart. And for me, that was right away. I was like, okay, where is this going from? From statement one, there was no compassion in the courtroom right now, which I guess is expected of a prosecution, but I thought it was very cold. Nailed it. That's exactly what our impression was as well to the point where we were surprised to hear the DA say after the case that both of the prosecutors were mothers.

8:25We were shocked to hear that. I kept thinking obviously they're not mothers. Maybe that's unfair, but that's what it felt like. It sounded like it and they're not supposed to in a prosecution. You're not supposed to, but the fact that they didn't acknowledge what every human being could made them seem harsh, robotic, not with it. They were disconnected from this jury in the wildest of ways. Robes from statement one, there was no compassion in the room. They were begging for her almost to just say, look, I know mother's struggle. Many of you have. I have as well. Nobody's proud sometimes when you have some very tough and difficult thoughts we don't like to admit we get that, but that doesn't mean she's not responding. That line was never used. They had taken that approach that we acknowledge she was struggling mentally and we acknowledge that a lot of mothers know what this feels like. But this is different. This was not, you know, they could have there was zero acknowledgement. There was zero heart. There was zero compassion.

9:28And you know what other women felt that as mothers like you were attacking them. That's what came across. It's not just you're going after this woman. You're going after all of us, but not even acknowledging that motherhood is difficult. That was all they knew. Or acknowledging that Lindsey Clancy was clearly struggling with her mental health. With some help. Yes. But yes, harsh as they were for the prosecution, it was a completely opposite love fest to hear them talk about Kevin Reddington. On this point as well, Robs, I was like, okay, we weren't right about him. We weren't wrong about him either. We felt his compassion. We felt him feeling like a fatherly figure almost to her. They loved him. Yeah, because obviously, he was rude and arrogant and he interrupted. He did a lot of things that you would think would turn someone off or a juror off, but he was doing it on behalf of a woman. He was fighting like hell for and that was everything. You know, you just says something every time he might have done something that seemed arrogant or something that seemed rude,

10:31but I don't deem him a rude and arrogant person, right? He took his moments and you just said it wrote every time he was rude or or was arrogant. It wasn't because of his ego. It was because of Lindsey for something he I'm being rude to you right now because you just said some bullshit. I don't like about my clients. So I'm gonna cut you off. That's the only time he did it. He wasn't trying to win a chess match against anybody. He wasn't he wasn't defending his own honor or himself. He was defending his client and that's what made him so likable even in his arrogance. And so yes, this is what they had to say. Kevin really talked from his heart. He brought all these people in, people that loved her, her in-laws, even Patrick was very compassionate. We appreciated the fact that he, Kevin, didn't delay and drag it on with more medical BS and got to the point of who Lindsey is and what her life was like. Obviously something happened to this woman and should have not happened for many reasons.

11:32Appreciate that he cut through the bullshit and moved it along with so much compassion for her. We didn't find any compassion in the prosecution. I know it's their job, but in a case like this, you expect a little bit. Rose, thank God that it mattered. We could have we could have written all this stuff. This is exactly what we thought on day one, day two, day three, day four to five. And we didn't know they were feeling it as well. Yes, we get, they even acknowledge you're the prosecution and maybe you're not supposed to be touchy feeling all this feels. But Rose, who not even acknowledged that a mother might struggle in any way after having a baby. Right. And then you want me to believe your evidence and your narrative and your theory. But if I'm not buying what your premise, what your foundation is from the beginning, then how can I believe anything you say? Like literally your tone and acknowledgement of reality. If you refuse to do that in an effort to prove your case, you are going to lose everybody in the process.

12:37You know what? It kind of goes along with some of their prosecution witnesses, the experts, where you won't, they wouldn't concede just simple facts just to be argumentative or to make sure they were being a homer for the prosecution. That comes off as a lack of credibility. Yes, they had an agenda. So therefore I cannot trust your credibility. That was the thing. If they just acknowledged, if they weren't so combative with the defense, I would have believed what they testified to more for the prosecution. They wanted to so badly stay away from the idea of sympathizing with her that it had the opposite impact on their case. It did. It did. It was absolutely blew up in their face. Several more here from this interview. Quote, we're trying to figure out if she knew right from wrong at the time with everybody saying she loved her children so much and everybody and everything proved she loved her children from journals to her mother-in-law. So she had to have snapped and not knowing what she was doing. To me it was proof that she didn't know what she was doing.

13:37I was I included this one because this is something you and I I wasn't as on board with this you said for you seeing the in-laws the family everybody sitting on her side of the courtroom. Therefore her was enough for you to vote for her not guilty by reason of insanity. I just got chill. And this was they said the same thing because every single person who knew her better than anyone else and people who were in roles that traditionally or at least after a murder would be adversarial mothers-in-law and ex-husbands. You've got those two people who tell me if it's just you had a rough day or even an nasty divorce. You're talking about a woman who murdered her three grandchildren. You're talking about a woman who murdered his three children and they still stood up on that stand and said she was a wonderful mother.

14:39That to me how do you combat that kind of evidence and that should have been something the district attorney should have taken into account when they decided to pursue charges against this woman. When you don't have one person saying one negative thing about her not even the people who would have every reason to hate her that speaks volumes. Yeah this is one where for me this is where we differed in that I needed more I was looking not at emotion. Yeah but it evidence still with evidence I probably would have voted say but you said this was enough and here one of the jurors come out and say absolutely like overwhelming like all these people there's nobody's going to say a bad word so that is the evidence that something was wrong with her and she shouldn't be criminally resolved. There's history of abuse or selfish behavior or neglectful behavior or deliberate self harm like you know drinking to oblivion. If there were things that she had done leading up to this a second life she wanted a gambler or something a boyfriend anything I would have absolutely been fully on board with a conviction.

15:51There was nothing nothing that spoke to anything other than love for those children and and frustration with herself that she couldn't be a better mother. And the frustration you talk about there Robson it was amazing to hear them acknowledge this in how the prosecutions case blew up in their face because we always thought it was a stretch they were trying to find something negative about Lindsey Clancy and they kept saying she was controlling. And we kept going every woman knows that she's controlling in her own home. That's almost an insult to it is and how controlling it's called being in charge and being like a mom a bird and that's your your nesting and that your this is your family and you're protecting it. And we always thought any time they tried to bring up something about her it was that was negative it was such a far fed stretch that you keep losing credibility like come on y'all you kidding me but one thing that the jurors in particular Robs and the interview acknowledged was this Facebook post I got had to be reminded of it but there was some point during the trial.

16:56They brought up that she what the Facebook post was complaining about Dawson complaining that he was a little difficult he's a toddler yeah that he was difficult and she was frustrated okay they pointed to that Robs as some indication that I wasn't this they saying she killed him first right. It was really okay and they pointed to this look she hated this kid that's what she they were trying to say that's what the prosecution was trying to prove that because she put this post on Facebook and. She chose to kill him first she's conscious thought of some kind she had beef against this kid well the jurors Robs one of them brought up that particular post another thing that just blew up in the process. It backfired and it made me angry and it was so interesting to see it made them angry too because every mother and I would say every parent knows you've been like I'm going to kill you I'm going to murder you you tell your friends this kid is driving me crazy that is what moms and I would say even that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to say even that's probably say all the time the famous line Bill Cosby gave to the field I brought you into this world I take you out yeah right it was a way you they're not serious but everybody has said or thought my

18:06shield is everybody my grandfather would come up to us grandkids and we were acting up and saying you're cruising for a bruise in like that is what parents and grandparents say and do feel. But out of frustration it's okay but Robsy this was devastating the prosecution has I'm sure they've listened to this right they're not ignoring of course they have got to listen yes. Hey everyone it's the Jonas Brothers with the hey Jonas podcast we've been catching up with some great friends Paul rod Michael Blay Seth Meyers now Horan Jake Shane and making some new friends while getting into what's really like to have sisters like Alex National she likes to control everyone and tell everyone okay well control is a hard work I would say that's a hard work I am more outspoken growing up a lot of the times because she was so quiet I would speak for like the both of us now I'm working on like you know mom really not good for speaking and Joey King you know if you're like mom is yelling at

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23:24was going to hurt me I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them their stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with the list of a smart on the i heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts uh so this is what one of the jurors said about that attempt to make it seem that Lindsey Clancy hated Dawson they tried to say something about a Facebook post that asked a question about how she was thinking about parenting Dawson but if anybody that's ever had a two-year-old toddler boy or girl you question they do crazy things you look to your friends you look to the people you work with you try to get some help every child is different and it's normal to ask

24:27those kinds of questions that proved to me she was a better mother not a bad mother she was just saying basically why is this kid like gonna be the death of me why is he so hard I've never met a human being that you know brought me to the brink more yes we've all had those feelings and said those things about our children alone away that this was what they pulled out to say look to like make their case look at how bad a mother she is because she was frustrated and asking other mothers for help well that's an insult to parents generally and it's one of those things you're gonna look me in the face and tell me I'm stupid you really think it's almost like they were offended by the case the prosecution was putting on really good way to that is offensive to say a Facebook post is evidence that this woman killed her kids because she was fresh come on y'all and we said you know I feel better saying it I left space when we were having the debates during the trial I don't know robes maybe that the juror felt the exact same thing right because you know

25:31it when something is disingenuous and you know when someone is trying to manipulate you you know it and that's exactly what the prosecution seemed or felt like they were doing manipulating the jurors into thinking something that they knew wasn't true the other thing robs and I said to you um I said I think I think they all have a crush on Kevin right yeah I've got to mention when you had his quote uh you had the quote you know just a moment ago but I I don't know what do you make of it and make nothing of it it kept referring to him by his first name Kevin that that that they were all friendly they felt like he was their friend their uncle their dad their husband you know they all felt mean something right that's significant yeah and you know what these are Boston women or a Massachusetts women right there's just a way about their very direct so they appreciate that same directness that they got from Kevin Reddington and I think conversely they don't appreciate the manipulation like these even the way you hear these jurors talking these women they are Massachusetts through and through and they tell it like it is and they say what they think and Kevin Reddington

26:34is the male personification of that he and robs I didn't hear uh we're gonna share this next quote it's part of my favorite one and it's better if you see it on video because I told you robs even when one of them tried to it wasn't even insult him yeah but say something kind of a little bit negative about he was arrogant another one jumped in yeah but arrogant in a good way and I it was like you know nobody say nothing bad about my baby Kevin it was one of the it felt that way three women it was a fourth was the woman who was the interviewer but you had four women sitting around it was almost like girls in middle school talking about who the cute boy was yep yeah I don't want to go too far with that I'm not saying they were being flirty but Roan they clearly had an affection for him and a respect for the job admiration I think is and they felt like protective of him um they said he was entertaining and that's good because we needed some of that um and someone said an arrogant at the same time um entertaining an arrogant and he would go back and forth between and then someone else jumped in and said but compassionate compassionate with his arrogance yes and I think that's all

27:39true like arrogant in a good way compassionately arrogant if that all makes sense but it does when you watched Kevin Reddington do his thing in court how rude was it an arrogant yeah I don't remember which doctor it was he was calling them on something that what you just making this stuff up you remember that moment that's rude yes that's arrogant but it was compassion for something he was said it was for his client and what he was saying we were thinking yeah that's the thing he was taking advantage of moments we were all experiencing inside of us and he just set it out loud so it worked uh we do need to acknowledge having yet robes uh we haven't yet that 11 to 1 was the count that we knew of in the courtroom in the jury deliberation room they did confirm that it was 11 to 1 yes for not guilty by reason of insanity in particular now we didn't know at the time we pieced it together but nobody was able to confirm the one hold out in what was going on but we do know now that they've come out it was 11 to 1 however it wasn't always

28:42that way I guess it was maybe eight to four of some kind because they said they had to bring three others like to convince three others to come over they didn't talk at length though about how difficult of a task that was it seems like it was they were close and then they came over it wasn't some big thing the holdout was the big thing and so on that holdout they said this he had reasonable doubt he admitted he had reasonable doubt and I started filling out the forms I was so excited this is the jury four person saying this there were three forms I had to fill out and I wrote my signature on each one and then he said I'm still not voting not guilty by reason of insanity he like watched her get excited that he's admitting there was reasonable doubt she's like we got this we got him verdict yes she starts writing out he lets her finish writing out all three and then says oh I'm I'm still not changing my vote yeah that don't like this guy they call the American and not in a good way yes they didn't they didn't come back incorrect and that's um

29:48about wrong they describe a guy who was just dug in and where he was they felt that because by him acknowledging saying out loud that there was a reasonable doubt they wanted him to then change a vote if you have if you're acknowledging something in here is reasonable doubt change and he wouldn't that is his prerogative yes that is there is no question here or anything about a juror misbehaving or refusing to deliberate it's not that rose this is what happens they couldn't convince the last guy it's it would be an I wondered do you think we'll ever know who this man is do you think yes do you think he'll ever speak out in defense of himself I think you'll have to I think it'll be forced to the way things go right somebody's going to track them down somebody going to start harassing him somebody's going to dox him somebody's going to something baby to this guy people feel passionately about this case and it's going to be ugly it's going to be unfortunate I hope it doesn't but we've seen this stuff play out I think there are people there are

30:50too many right now desperate to track him down not to track him down to talk to him but to punish him in some way form or fashion I think that's happened there are people like that then there are journalists out there who I think genuinely do want to hear where his head was obviously everyone else is speaking for him we heard it in court and now we're hearing it from these three jurors what they say he did how they describe him acting he may have a very different perspective of what he thinks went on in that jury room it's I hate the I I hate it being you can be annoyed like man this could I was on this side and this could have happened for Lindsey Clancy if he just on it you could be annoyed with him but when we take it to the next point of misconduct of some kind it's not just that you were dug in and having a opinion you're allowed to now they're assigning to him that he was actually doing something unlawful doing something wrong even saying arrogant is almost assigning something to him as if he wasn't a legit member in a participant in that deliberation rope sometimes it happens he's dug in he's allowed to dig in and feel however he wants to feed that

31:55is part of the process and they described that there were some sharp words exchange that jurors and they even had to take breaks and walk around and take a look at the evidence table because they had to just get away from the process but they described some incredibly tense hours that went on I mean think about that you're stuck in a room with someone who is refusing to budge and you feel completely stuck the frustration the emotional investment you've already put into this case for weeks on end I mean when you hear the judge and certainly folks talk about Kevin Reddington I believe spoke about these people spent two months away from their families their lives their work everything and to have it and in a mistrial is incredibly frustrating and you know all that time they're away dealing with some of the most difficult stuff you will ever experience as a human being and at least by the judges rule you're not supposed to have anybody to go home and talk to about it correct right what is your release what is your outlet you know I supposed to be you're with your jurors but you can't deliberate until the end so right yeah they had five weeks a

32:57month plus isolating dealing with that and they talked about how I guess I know that the 9-1-1 call was was played in court and they heard it thankfully we did not hear it but they had to listen to it again they said some jurors actually put in air pods and listen to music because they could not hear it again that was how horrific it was you know I appreciate it and hearing that the stuff they went back and listen to and interviews and difficult stuff I gave them credit man they took it seriously they didn't want to listen to that stuff again no but they felt they needed to and to deliberate and for that I give them credit well we'll wrap here with what I thought was the most stunning thing they sent and I think is the most damning thing the prosecution can hear if you are trying to win over 12 jurors and when your case is over jurors come out and not only reject your case but come out as full fledged and public supporters of the woman you had on trial robes these prosecutors got to

34:04do some soul searching I was shocked to hear these women say yeah go ahead try again you know where will be in the front row every day of her retrial in support of Lindsey Clancy that's remarkable that is remarkable and it speaks to even the support Lindsey Clancy has gotten again from the her own members of her of the family that could absolutely be divided over what happened they have united behind her and now you have jurors saying the very same thing that they will go to her trial if it happens again in support of her publicly that speaks volumes and I you we've wondered just how much this is going to impact the prosecution's decision as to whether or not they retry Lindsey Clancy we heard Patrick not Patrick Clancy excuse me we heard Kevin Reddington say he's ready to go and he's ready to retry this case as soon as the prosecution is ready but he also said he's open to hearing what the prosecution may offer if they can come to some sort of an

35:07agreement some sort of a deal to not have to retry this case the prosecution takes one listen to these jurors how could they possibly move forward with another trial after they hear just how vehemently and how strongly these jurors feel not only about Lindsey Clancy but about their case and how they chose to prosecute it the decision has been made for them they're not going to try this case they do they have to completely revamp their case started over do you hand another prosecutor the case you can't do that they don't have just prosecutors floating around with free time to get caught up no how could you get caught up on this roll you have to change they had to change the hair bow she put in her hair every day how she dressed the shoes she wore do we want to do glasses do I need a new briefcase they have to change everything because from the moment they walked in that courtroom these jurors didn't like them and yes correct but now you've got the

36:08problem that the whole world saw them already watch them listen to them you totally change tactic yes totally need to have to have to have to know what's going to buy it in any potential juror that would be receded or be seated in a new jury I'm sure watched some of this case already saw what the previous tactic was and that'll just make a new tactic look even more manipulative the way baby but remember not everybody watched every day like we did they saw clips on TV shorter clips on tape talk they don't know the but rounds I am shocked at just how much this jury did not like this case at all uh reading ten yes open to a deal there's going to be something that gets worked out there will be sentence her and and suspend the sentence is that was going to make prosecutors feel good that at least she got it possibly 20 years sentence but it's going to be suspended as long as she's in the hospital that's that's what it should have been done. Guaranteed amount of time she'll stay in a mental institution so she is beyond child bearing years

37:10whatever it is they want to say or she can never be around kids again there could be some stipulations that they could put in place. Is that exactly what should have happened in the first place? Yes I've heard plenty of lawyers say she was overcharged we shouldn't even been doing this in the first place. And look this could be a wake up call for future potential prosecutions in terms of how we handle women in these types of situations and unfortunately we already have another woman Cory Walsh out there who has followed in Lindsey Clancy's footsteps and she's being treated differently already every case is different but look the idea is hopefully eyes have been opened minds have been open in terms of what women deal with and go through postpartum and that is the hope that there can be some sort of advancement made in how we treat women how we acknowledge women how we listen to women when they tell us they need help and maybe even yes how we prosecute women. All right well that is the update they are talking this is fascinating it's been a fascinating case we didn't mention the Trump connection here not in just his comments but Reddington has floated the idea of Trump getting involved these are

38:14state cases of course state charges so he can't as pardon somebody for a state charges only federal charges but Reddington did suggest even the word he used was clout like he can call up the prosecutor and he's not he's a yeah they're both Republicans he actually put that out there he's saying he can call them up and say don't go out for this if he wants. But Trump has not the comments he has made about Lindsey Clancy have not been suggesting in any way shape or form that he believes Lindsey Clancy should be found not guilty by reason of insanity in fact he I think called her yes I so he might not be the right treat a barc up. All right Tom interesting way to put that so with that we will wrap here folks we always appreciate you have TJ that's robs we'll see you soon.

39:25Black information network and download Roland Martin unfiltered on the iHart Radio app Apple podcast wherever you get your podcasts college football will hijack your weekend ruin your sleep and break your heart and that's why we make the solid verbal college football show I'm Ty Hilden Brandt he's Dan Rubinstein every week we preview the games that matter in the story lines that are going to ignite your group chat and you can join us in the aftermath as we react to what happened why it matters and how the sport went completely bonkers yet again listen to the solid verbal college football show on the iHart Radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey what's up I'm Tony Gonzalez and I'm October Gonzalez but you can call me Toby we want you to join us on our new podcast no safe words with October and Tony Gonzalez where we get real about marriage parenthood sex divorce and all the nitty gritty stuff we all think about but just don't say you're probably just gonna be from rich guy and he's gonna whisk you away and listen to no safe words

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