Lindsay Clancy's Deadlock Means WHAT For Her Future?!

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. Here we are, the Lindsay Clancy trial. As of our recording here, we're still with a jury that has not come back with anything very likely going to be hung. We're going to kind of tackle the conversation from that direction, but again, anything as possible here, but reading the tea leaves, the Lindsay Clancy trial is asking the hardest question and criminal law can a mother who killed her three children be held responsible when her own brain was the weapon used against her. Six weeks of testimony, more than 80 witnesses, psychiatric experts who look at the same woman and some came to opposite conclusions. Now, after days in deliberations, 12 people have sent notes to judge Sullivan indicating they are deeply split, making a hung jury look increasingly inevitable. Joining us today, Eric Fattis, defense attorney, former prosecutor to talk about what a potential hung jury would mean for Lindsay Clancy, whether this case we get tried again, and what it tells us when the system built to deliver justice stands on the brink and delivering no answer at all along with me as always.

1:16My co-host Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. Eric, the jury has 80 plus witnesses or they've heard from 80 plus witnesses, 300 exhibits, days in that room and they've already sent no saying they're struggling to reach a consensus. The judges now read them the two read Rod Regis charge is basically tells them no future jury is going to have better evidence than they do and they still appear very deadlocked. I'm not honestly shocked by this. I think a lot of people have said this is going to be probably where it goes considering the the ether and the the the the temperature in the room outside. It's a good a gauge of what a jury room is going to look like, but they didn't have access to social media. They didn't have the the conspiracies running wild. So you know in their heads every day like we have are you surprised at all what's your thoughts that we're sitting here with what looks like is going to be a hung jury.

2:20Gosh not a huge shocker to me Tony in part because of how polarizing this case is bit you know what when we talk with our family we talk with our friends colleagues about the case. The case off the earth to the middle ground it's usually people are on the extremes of one side or the other and so the jury is kind of a microcosm for for society at large and so those that polarization may be going on back there folks that probably dug in their heels at this point in this in this stage of the deliberations and I think it's reasonably unlikely that they're going to change their positions. However I have seen it before. Eric with that you know I'm just running my own thought experiments because I mean we're all right on this one this has been most polarizing case we've ever colored covered and it's it's pretty profound about how like you said dug in people are on this. I can't imagine especially with the coverage it's going on you know the jury's supposed to sequester themselves and not pay attention hard to imagine they have but in any event.

3:22So say it goes to retrial and they try to sit another jury it's hard to imagine a scenario where it doesn't happen again so in my mind and this is my question to you is do you think they're going to press more for some sort of plea deal to to avoid what they probably see as inevitable and not just in this case but is that generally what happens in cases where it gets this kind of severe notoriety or maybe this is a landmark case for just because it's risen to this level. Robin it's not uncommon at all for the attorneys even during trial even during deliberations to be thinking about hey is there some sort of resolution that we might be able to come to because both sides have tremendous exposure if Lindsay Clancy is convicted she goes to prison probably for the rest of her life. If the prosecution loses that's a tremendous black eye when you have three dead kids and and you didn't do a great job and so could both sides sort of come to the table and be like hey is there a way that we can sort of both get out of this relatively unscathed with some plea to a lesser whatever.

4:25Those discussions happen frequently during trial and even during deliberations are you seeing any sort of leakage from either side of what you think either side would agree to again I know it's pure conjecture your your armchair quarterback sitting back in this but I'm just curious. About you know what what would either side see as a compromise when do you think from that point of view. It's a little hard to say you know the defense launched what's called a lesser non included charge that they required the courts or the court required the charge to be added of manslaughter perhaps you know that's less than first screamers less than second degree murder still carries significant prison time but but something that would give Lindsay Clancy a lot of life on the outside after this and so that's a possibility. Let's talk about those those possibilities and logistically what that that looks like if they come back deadlocked here and and just so we can have it on the record of understanding where their options are in this moment in time.

5:26Is there are there any roads I should say of which the jury can travel being deadlocked where this doesn't then get drug out through more hearings and a bench trial where where both sides are able to come to the table relatively quickly and and have some sort of of settlement agreed to as to to the outcome of this or does a deadlock jury in this case mean OK, we may get to some other resolution but it means either a bench trial new hearings that are going to further extend this months possibly years down the road or is there something where in the container of this current trial and situation even with a deadlock jury both sides with the judge are able to to come to some sort of a resolution does that exist. It could potentially exist so the jury right now is deadlocked if the judge determines that there's a hung jury meaning they're not going to reach unanimous decision that's a mistrial what that means is that is the prosecution can seek to set a new trial date and we can start all over again now in the pentancy of that new trial during that hearing certainly if I'm defense I'm going to the prosecutor and I'm saying hey look you guys gave it your best job you guys at 80 witnesses you had hundreds of exhibits.

6:50This lasted weeks and weeks and weeks you gave your best shot you guys tried hard but you couldn't convince a jury there is no indication that you're going to get a different outcome if we do this again so how about having her plead to something and those discussions can take place while the disc attorney is deciding how they might want to react next if there is a hung jury. Yeah do you see if they were to retry it you know as the prosecutors are thinking about retrying it I mean literally what difference what could they do differently because they're new testimony they could bring in I can't imagine new experts because again part of the argument against the prosecution was the time removed from the interviews of Lindsay to the actual crime itself of killing our kids and they'll and if they brought in more that be even more time removed from there so it's not like they're going to bring in new experts that have more depth of field necessary. Because again experts seem to cancel each other out the people standing with Lindsay saying that yes this is a break from who she was I don't see that shifting majorly in any way so I guess unless I mean what other new road could they go down would be attacking the investigation as we've seen so many of the the wonderful people in the tiktok verse you know saying that they did a horrendous job of I mean literally what more could they do than they've already done.

8:04That's the thing Robin is is basically speaking the facts of the facts now they could try to do some additional investigation they could try to find additional ways to attack the credibility of defense experts and things like that but by and large the evidence is in change evidence is what it is and so you know there's not going to be some kind of rabbit they can pull out of their hat during this second trial that I think would substantially change things I just don't I can't see that. And one more question that again legal side on nearly as well as you obviously so say the prosecutors want to retry because those two seem like you know I want or no matter what can the judges side where they get to try to like who makes that final decision on how to move forward with this case that that shows how much power a prosecutor can have that the decision whether to seek a second trial after a hunk jury. It's really solely within the discretion of the prosecutor and and if the prosecutor wanted to move forward the judge would not have the legal authority to be like I don't think that's a good idea and I don't like this case I don't think you're going to win none of those things would be in effect and the prosecutor would have the soul decision made zero limit about how many times I can retry a case.

9:20I don't know that there is is a specific number that that the law talks about however there are things there are legal grounds like a speedy trial they have a speedy trial right they have a due process right to not be to not have a harassing prosecution and maybe after the second one they could argue hey this is just harassment at this point this is vexatious and so there are kind of ways to limit the number of retries. Thanks. Yeah. What sort of appetite does a does a prosecutor typically have after a case like this we saw Karen Reed got retried and we know how that went also a Massachusetts case when you have essentially the same set of facts you're going to have essentially the same pool of people that you're going to be picking in for so your odds of having a few holdouts here or there and ending with the same sort of jury. Extremely high.

10:20I mean the appetite is got to be considered but even beyond that because obviously they can redo it if they so have the appetite but the the defendant herself Lindsey Clancy she could ask for a bench trial could they not and if you were reddington having gone through this once knowing the state of your client. Do you go down that road. So a few things my understanding is is that under Massachusetts law if there is a first-degree murder charge that has to go to a jury. Now if it's a lesser now for example if the jury came back not guilty on first-degree murder but hung on manslaughter or something my understanding is that a manslaughter charge could go to only a judge that that's risky on the defense side because when you're talking about a jury you got 12 people you need to go to the court. You need to convince at least one of them to vote not guilty and then you get at least a hung jury if you convince all of them you win but when you have a judge you only have one person not 12 who you got a hope sides with side with you.

11:30And so the judge part is a little bit more risky just in terms of the numbers game and how juries come down in terms of hung juries a judge is never going to be it's never going to have a hung jury because it's one person. Would judge Sullivan be the guy that did it or would they reassign a new judge to it. Yeah that's a good question. I'm not entirely sure. I think it's going to be most appropriate to get a second judge because the first judge would be privy to all of the evidence from the first trial but the decision is going to be made on the events of first trial. And there'd be a concern that the judges mind Michael back to the first trial. I think they did a new judge. Yeah that's why it's curious just because Sullivan seemed to really his his objections. I haven't looked up the stats on it. It's mine. I got to do that one is you know for the objections that were made where it was more like how did he lean on his objections and what the he sustained and didn't sustain in the most just curious.

12:31Yeah it's a good thing. We got we got the answer here everybody. It's a fact it's a scummy government mk ultra mind control that made pro's act for this reason and the mind control program. Come on people evil CIA government well I'm glad all questions have been answered. We're good we're good we're good going forward. Yeah you know the brain train I've had in the last week has just been profound. You know we're talking about this before the show Eric and that is you know when when you do assessments of cases and my case human beings you know it requires a massive amount of empathy which doesn't isn't sympathy it's empathy to understand the viewpoint from someone else from their shoes which is very defense. You know defense oriented as well because you have to understand your client you have to understand the press huge understanding which means you typically just by the nature of who you are you listen to all these really really stupid things to try to figure out where they're coming from and so it just occupies massive brain space I just got to shut this shit down it's killing me.

13:37Yeah it is I mean it's been a mental workout on this case one more in this lane before we talk about the the craze person who showed up with the camera. If you're if you're a mother watching every day of this looking for an answer and this this means a lot to a lot of people. What are you supposed to take away if the jury walks out without a verdict here I mean there's there's so much that seems to be writing on on the verdict here in terms of understanding of mental health of women in postpartum situations. Is this is this really in more so not necessarily an indictment of the medical system but of our society and an understanding of this sort of world if we're able to if we're not able to come back with an answer either way. I could say for sure in my opinion is that you would see more of these types of defenses especially with mother mothers who may have been going through a postpartum process and were led to commit a crime especially if it's killing their children.

14:48You are going to see this type of defense much more regularly and you're going to see experts popping up who support this this kind of a defense and so I think from from a legalistic standpoint we can sort of pin down what that effect might look like from a societal or or moral standpoint. Gosh that one is that's a big question that is tough to tackle I don't know you know if three from mom kills there are three kids should they be able to get off you know some sort of hospitalization I you know it's a hard but it's only in the state too because so many most of the states aren't as I mean the education on what the laws are when it comes to not guilty by reason of sanity or not criminally responsible. There's huge differences between states massive I mean this if this had happened in one of the four that don't even have this as a possibility of defense then we when you're talking about this and so that's what it's also pretty interesting about this and and where this where this occurred and it's just I feel like it's a false compare I've seen so many them I just did a monologue about this this morning is the another Lindsay Clancy we I keep saying that in headlines when there's basically a mother and dead children the headline becomes it's

16:05another Lindsay Clancy and I think that's so insanely disingenuous because it's not this is such a unique case the postpartum psychosis is statistically is a rare thing I do wonder if it is more prevalent than we actually know statistically but when we had what was it Andrea Gates is that the way back that a lot of the comparisons going on here. People like well Lindsay Clancy is going to make all these women run and and reclaim this we didn't see a giant giant uptake uptick after Andrea Gates no it's not that didn't change the landscape neither is this going to change the landscape and when everyone keeps jumping on to this oh it this is going to start the precedent of more mothers doing this no it's not I mean we everybody saying it's another Lindsay Clancy just as they did for the last 20 years in the last year. And for the last 20 years and other Andrea Gates and you look at the case details and it's like no these are really nothing and here's why it won't be and hasn't been before and that's why this one so unique so let's again we always say a lot of people say anyway that the experts cancel themselves out even though they agree in a lot of areas with her mental health issues just their definitions of what the individual psychologists are saying was criminal responsible is their own context from the laws in their own states as well so that's why it's a little bit of a movement target they all agreed on a lot of things.

17:26Not all of them on the on the postpartum psychotic spot of it but all the mental health issues yes and so here's what's extremely unique in this case it's removed the doctors and their opinions and their analysis and all that the huge difference is her and her family the support network around her that gives all the other data points for the jury to use in their deliberation in other words all these other cases were people is going to be a lot more Lindsay Clancy's really have you seen this many people on any other case that stood by the defendant that actually were part of the family that lost their kids and said we stand by her she's not it's this wasn't in her right mind there's something wrong here co workers family loved ones ex husbands all of them are saying exactly the same thing that's what makes this one extremely unique. Because ask you do your own thought experiment if some if you come from if you're one is where people comes from a very very healthy family as my wife said to me the other day if you had done this to our kids there's no way in living hell I would have thought that was you something had to be going wrong in your life some some psychotic break or something because that is not you so that's what makes this one unique.

18:38Yeah I agree your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube as we continue to break down the the Lindsay Clancy trial and Todd I know you're watching the background if we have anything that breaks during this let us know I know that's jury is still out as of right now but if we need to jump into anything we can. Ta da in game show fashion the response want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss. A moment of true crime coverage from Tony Briewski and the Hidden Killers podcast.