Lindsay Clancy: What the Mistrial Unleashed Against Patrick

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Bruceke and Robin Dree. Aren't you glad we came to a conclusion where the whole country gets together and goes, ah, we all see it the same way. The Lindsey Clancy case. Oh, wait, that didn't happen. The trial ended obviously without a verdict. Online everybody seems completely certain though in their point of view. Not only about Lindsey Clancy, but anyone who sees the case differently than themselves. A man online claims he called off his $200,000 wedding after his fiance told him that as a man, he could never fully understand postpartum mental illness. His takeaway was that he had almost married a monster, whether that's real or not is up for debate. But this is happening. The ships are fracturing. People are at each other based on their opinions on this case.

1:01Maybe that story is real. Maybe it's a social media theater. Either way, the reaction is real. We've reached a point where disagreeing about this case apparently tells people everything they need to know about your morality, your marriage, and whether you're safe to be around. We're going to be getting into that today on this program because we need to. Chavon Scott is with a psychotherapist and author as well as Robin Drake retired FBI special agent and chief of the counter intelligence behavioral analysis program. Chavon, what is it about the Lindsey Clancy case that makes people need such a clean absolute answer here? I mean, the deaths were horrific. The mental health evidence was complicated. Even the jury couldn't agree. What does that answer uncertainty? Why does that uncertainty make people so angry at one another? Isn't it weird? I just had to stay off social media. Well, I do try to monitor the buzz on social media.

2:03But I get so frustrated. I just have to log off because of the viciousness and this emotional intensity. My term of the day is moralization as identity fusion. Right, right. That's it. Yeah. I just, where people have bought into a story, whichever, and they're making it two sides. And it's all about their moral identity. And so when they see somebody that has a different point of view, it's not that we just, you know, maybe can discuss this and come to a conclusion and maybe we'll agree to disagree. It's like my identity is tied up in this position I've taken. And you're evil, you know? I'm the crusader for righteousness. It's all about righteousness and it's volatile. And I mean, I even caught on, I saw it on Instagram. I don't know if it was on Tick-Tack or not. But somebody yesterday, I believe, who had obviously a cloned voice of Patrick's father.

3:10I mean, you can do AI cloning now with anybody's voice and make them say anything. And the quality was really bad and they had no good explanation for how they got this. Saying that Patrick had done it. And fortunately, there was some pushback on that. I had the comment on that and say, do you know anything about voice cloning and how easy this is to do? Of course not. Yeah, of course not. But you have to wonder, what is this crusade, this moral crusade with these two sides? It's, you know, I thought we had seen as bad as it could get around politics in recent years, right? I think this has even more intensity than the political debate on social media. It does. And I want to talk about that with Patrick. But Patrick's attorney has released a statement basically saying, we're going to go after you if you're saying that he did this. And that's in a nutshell. And I've been saying good for weeks. I think we were probably the first show that came out with an attorney on the air and said, how should Patrick start suing people?

4:12And like I fully, because it's insane, it's utterly insane. We've purposely made headlines on this show about people's curiosity and Patrick so they can, oh, maybe Patrick did do something. Then they watch it and, oh, sorry, blew that out of the water for you. And true. And I think that's good because it gets people to hear what reality actually is. But why is that with Patrick? People, people like taking fake audio and sharing it as if it's fact, taking conjecture about his life that isn't even based on reality or fact. And we got a whole segment of Patrick will get you. So I don't want to go too far down there. But it just seems it's nuts. People are, it's the celebrity I'm disconnected from you enough, even the Patrick's not a celebrity. But he's a public figure now because of this case. It's, is it, they're disconnected from this being a human being? So we can say whatever the hell we want online with no repercussion and it doesn't matter.

5:14It doesn't affect anybody. People often forget Patrick's sitting there with a device too. And he's reading the shit people are saying about him. And he has compassion and he has a soul and he lost his three children. And people are like, you killed them. I mean, there's this disconnect that we as humans somehow readily have where it seems a switch flips and we decide who's human and who's not very much, very much the dehumanization process. And I still see, I keep hoping it's going to die down, but it doesn't die down. It's this gender war where, you know, there are women who are so angry at men because of their own baggage. That Patrick is a representation of every man who did them wrong, every man who was manipulative. And I think it's the same thing for men with every conniving woman that they've ever known. And all these issues they have with women and they take that emotional energy as their own baggage.

6:15But they take that, they project it out and they're not looking at the humanity. You know, Patrick is not a human being. Lindsay is not a human being and it's they become these figures that people just hate. And then anybody that's trying to say, but let's consider this. Let's look at them as people. Well, you're the enemy too. And then you get the hate. I got one more follow up. Robin, I know I'm stepping out because I know you always have great questions, but I got a, I'm kind of, I'm doing follow ups here because I get some good stuff going on here. Okay, the baggage and I get that. I get how people will project their, their shit out there. And then it's, it's more of a reflection on themselves. And I get that on cases where like the person actually deserves it. Where the person is a representation of all those shitty people in your life. Corey Richards was a great one. A lot of my own baggage came out in that case where I was just like, whoa, but it was, it was earned. She was a great representation of a menacing, conniving borderline sociopath.

7:18And I happen to have had some of those in my life and a lot of us have. And so I get it where it's deserved and the dots connect. Patrick, where are they connected? Where are they been connecting these dots? I mean, that's like just like slight, slight things that he may have, he went out for a time with his, his friends to, to take a break from life with Lindsay. He, he, he went on a business. It's like just normal everyday shit that people actually do. People are like going, ah, see? What's going on with the projection here? It doesn't land with a Patrick. I think that's what's getting me about people projecting their shit on the Patrick. Is it doesn't land? Cause Patrick's not that villain. Yeah, it shows you how irrational the thinking is and all the confirmation bias. It's like once they've taken a side in social media and you know, you get hundreds and hundreds of people validating your side, you buy into this story.

8:18Patrick is evil and or Lindsay is evil, whichever direction they're going. And then the facts absolutely don't matter and everything they see confirms, you know, they, because they can twist it into something completely bizarre. But everybody chimes in and says, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And look at this and look at that. And it's all confirmation bias, which is a terrible cognitive trap to fall into. Because then you can, then you can take anything, anything ambiguous and turn it into more proof, you know, and then you've got that moral crusader thing going and anybody who tries to say, but that doesn't make sense. Here's another point of view. Well, you're evil too, you know, so we've had so much confirmation bias in a lot of the cases we cover, because you know, people typically will lock on to that, that theory at the very beginning at the onset and they hold onto it. All their might, everything they're going to take in confirms what they already suspected or what they believe

9:21and now know a lot of it moralizing, obviously from the very get go. And they throw all critical thinking completely out the window and we use that term so much on our show, critical thinking, critical thinking, which requires a lot of curiosity. We've seen it more in this case and then we've seen it any other case before. More than we've seen it, politics, I totally agree. This is this, this to me overshadows any battle between Democrats, Republicans I've ever seen just because it's so, it's so much more vitriol and it's so less based on facts. A lot of times and it's not just facts themselves because people have been saying, well, I just, I just work with the facts. You might be looking at facts, but your interpretation of them is now being shifted and manipulated for your own confirmation bias, both your assessment before, your assessment now of it and your projection of them in the future. So with this emotional hijacking that everyone's going through, the most profound thing to me right now is how are we functioning as a society with a bunch of morons

10:23better than because no one's thinking so Shavon. I mean, so when the prefrontal cortex gets loaded and adrenaline's flowing and all the hormones are going and you get into stupid brain at this level, what brings it back if anything? I mean, so I like, I just think of all these amazing people that brought us to where we are in society of where we are today, the technology we have, the gadgets we have. I'm thinking to myself, who the hell was able to make these things because of all the people we're seeing online? I can't imagine these people can work themselves out of a paper bag. They're so wrapped up in their own crap. So have they always been this way and they were able to hide it? Was this an emotional hijacking moment and where they're going to crazy brain and will come back down again? I mean, so how's this going to play out in the future or are they just now completely locked into Nutterville? I would love to have the answer to that because, boy, I've, I, in the initial, you know, when we first started to see this rolling online, I would really pop in and try to say,

11:30but that doesn't make sense because and quickly, yeah, quickly gave up for the most part. But how to, how to help this guy down? I mean, I was really hoping when the trial was finished, we'd start to see it diminish and it's, it's just not diminishing. It's just sort of like this, this rolling kind of momentum going. I did have, I'm just kind of pleased. I did have a thoughtful, a person who's normally very thoughtful on my Facebook friends list and, and we do have admiration for each other. And he did obviously had not followed the case, but had a very strong opinion that he posted the other day and said, Lindsey Clancy should fry for what she did. And I thought, okay, because I know this person. And my approach was to say, you know, heart disease happens to any of us. A brain disease can happen to any of us. I know a little bit about this because brain diseases have happened to people I love in my family.

12:34And, and there, but for the grace of God, it could be us. And that stopped him. And he wrote back, posted back and said, you know what? I know you know more about this than I do. So I defer to you. Nobody does that anymore. Nobody does that. And I'll give a lot of credit to my wife. I said it last week, I think, or a week before, you know, she gave me this great thought experiment. We were talking about this case and, you know, one of the fiery comments we had from someone or I was getting blast on something because I said, Patrick, you know, was doing right by Lindsey by the things he was saying, even though he's not like standing side by side with her. He's actually selling the facts and details that they like in his paraphrase and other words, it was all going great until she got sick. And so that's a very good accurate phraseology. Not for and against is she got sick. It's not who she was. And my wife said, and this is a good thought experiment for people that don't get it. That thing she should fry. If, and again, there's an if, if and door statement going on in here and that is if you actually are in a good solid relationship with a spouse or partner, and you've been there for a while, say 10 years,

13:45and you have children together and it's a good, healthy relationship. And you enjoy your children, enjoy your wife. Everyone is copacetic and you get along with your in laws in your own parents. It's a good study family. If the most horrendous thing in the world happens and that partner of yours winds up killing your kids, is your first thought that you have because you knew this person for so long, so close, good, healthy, really is your first thought that you have they should fry or who the hell was that? They weren't in their right mind. Something went horribly wrong. My wife said that to me. She said, if the God forbid anything like that happened and you did this, I'd say something went seriously wrong with you. We got to get you checked out there. I mean, the devastation aside, all that, the tragedy of it all, but she knows that is not me. Something was tragically wrong. And so if for those people projecting, fry, pure evil, just besides looking all the amazing

14:49psychology, everyone says that they're all over the place. I thought the psychologists and psychiatrists on this were actually pretty good. You know, the ones after after tuffs and that is all of them said she was sick. The degree of it, the bipolar one or two, you know, varied psychotic break or not psychotic break, but all of them said she was severely depressed. All of them said she had severe insomnia. Everyone said that the medications were weren't working. All of them said that she was not maliguring, that she was under reporting rather than overreporting. All of them were saying this. So all of them were saying that was she was sick. So I'd still don't get the, I still don't get the problem. Is it reflection of, and I've noticed this, I would say over the last 20 years pretty well. We used to be a society that did somewhat put weight on expert opinion. That when we had a question, we would go to an expert to get information, to get answers,

15:52to find direction for whatever, maybe ailing us or whatever question we want to have answered. Since the world of social media, it feels like the weight of the expert opinion or the educated opinion, I guess you could say, I think educated maybe a better word than expert educated. Someone with experience and reps in a certain area. That that has gone down because suddenly it's just as easy to pick up what Uncle Phil thinks, you know, or your cousin, you know, Patula in Paduca, what she thinks. And then somehow that opinion, our brains are registering to have just as much weight as as maybe an expert in that field. Someone, someone who knows postpartum depression, psychosis and medicine and everything that goes along with it. Is this a real problem of our brains not being able to decipher the difference between opinion that is just that opinion from

16:54anybody, whatever it can mean, it can say anything, it doesn't necessarily hold weight versus reps versus I know what I'm talking about. Here's where this comes from. We used to base our opinions over here on people who have reps. That's been taken out of the equation. Now it's just we base our opinions on wherever the wind blows and whoever picked up whatever tweet or whatever algorithm fed our way that morning. That seems to be where I think a lot of the root of this is coming from is the lack of understanding and taking into account facts and data that actually matter. Not just but you was opinion and to the point that we're talking about, you know, be na on here saying, I can't listen to this. That's exactly why you don't get it because you refused to open your mind. And she killed three kids. Yeah, she killed three kids. She should be locked up. Well, we're no one here, no one on the side of standing with the mental health crisis that she was in is saying she should be free. No one. So this is where you got to open your mouth.

17:58I mean, close your mouth, open those ears and learn a little bit more about what other people are saying about this that you had something severely mentally wrong going on here. She should be locked up. Maybe forever. That's not for me to size for the legal system and get and stay in Tukesbury where she's been for the last three plus years. So everyone's acknowledging all these things. It's just saying it's like what got us here. So it doesn't get repeated again and again and again because nothing has changed since Andreate's I looked at that case. I looked at the baseline of of parental, filiside change since that case. No, it has not. So unfortunately, I think we're going to be repeating it because I can't listen to this. Three kids died. You should burn. Well, go call back on your rock. And there was a comment that's exactly what we're talking about. I saw a few minutes ago that men have hormones too, but a man would never get away with this by blaming hormones. Nobody is blaming hormones. We're blaming bipolar disorder and psychosis.

19:01Hormones could have been a trigger for a deterioration in functioning, but we're talking about severe middle illness, not PMS. But again, somebody's got to buy us and they're interpreting it despite all the evidence about what the experts have said about what was really going on mentally for a person in psychosis. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's also just come down, Shivana at the end of the day. Some people just aren't equipped for complex thought. Right. I mean, I mean, it's not just, I mean, it's not to say there's somebody who I disagree with on this as a bad person. I'm not saying that. But some people, they, they, they, they, it's not how their brain works. It's just, it's not how they were. It's not the DNA they have. They didn't have it. It's, it's not how it fires. Is that just the flat out reality that we live in a society with a lot of people that think very

20:01differently and some are further capable of complex thought and and taking all of these things in processing it and coming out with a conclusion and some are just overwhelmed by all this information. They can't process it in any sort of conducive way that's going to produce a clear thought. So it just becomes scary and overloading and she needs to burn. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is that tendency to go for a simple story because certainty, I know what it is and I understand it when, in fact, they don't, they, they didn't watch the trial. They don't understand the experts. They, they have no clue. But certainty is emotionally comforting, even when it's not intellectually justified. Yeah. And I think we're seeing a lot of that. They just like a simple story because it's a very clear black and white thing. And then the other piece of that is if we acknowledge mental illness can happen and someone who's essentially a good normal person can do something

21:05terrible, that means that that could be any of us. And, and people don't want to think that way. They want to think that they're in control of their brain. That's a human tendency, right? We all want to think we're in control of ourselves and our behavior. But unfortunately, there are exceptions to that. And it's not a simple story. This is the most unsimple story you could pass we have because you have to do so many things at the same time. I can't do it. In, in complete honesty, I, I struggle with this case because I can hold in one hand the horrendous murder over three children like everyone and all the people that are anti-Lindsay and here have been saying 100% I'm not pro-Lindsay. I'm pro-mental health in this and that there was a psychotic break or and which Dr. Halbrin also said on there because he had two theories that this was not her that at anyone knew in her life. So something had to severely happen to deviate from her life pattern as testified by everyone in her life, both from the prostitution defense. And that was it was either a postpartum psychosis and a psychotic break that happened that occurred, which includes the

22:07people that are obviously haven't been following anything. The planning that went into this. But also it could be that severe depression, s ideation and altruistic philosophide, which could lead to exactly the same outcome as well as it can also be not guilty by reason Sandy or not criminally couple for those actions. So both can be the same. So you have the one side there and then I have the other side of me says, well, if this happened in any of a lot of other states, states that actually have the defense, but it's actually the burden is actually on the defense to prove that she's insane rather than then the prostitution having to prove it, like it's in this case, or she's in one of the four states that actually doesn't even have this defense. And so there this we wouldn't be having this discussion. So that's the complicated part because having to hold these two truths that it wasn't her, but at the same time she killed them. That's the hard part. And so that's why we're having this discussion because everyone is still sane at the end of the day locked up, but in psychiatric treatment where we can learn from it, she can maybe get better, but I'm more about the

23:09learning from this so we don't repeat the pattern that keeps happening again and again and again. Yeah. Sorry. And I think that is what for whatever reason is missed on so many people thinking about this. It's it's you don't care about the kids. Yeah. And that's that's the weird part about this. People here here compassion for Lindsay and immediately decide some people do. Immediately decide that means you don't care. And then they name the children. This is how every post works. What about Cor doeson and Callan? Like yeah, we that's that's already implied because that's the topic. Like I'm not I'm not going to keep bringing their names up over and over and over. It doesn't further the discussion about the mental health crisis that the mom was in. All that does is evoke emotion and does not make us actually focus on the problem that occurred here. But and it's not it's not a fair comparison when people hear compassion for Lindsay and think that you don't

24:14care for the kids, but that it's like it's black and white for so many. And you can actually not have compassion for Lindsay. Which is I think that's fine. If you don't have compassion for Lindsay, then why don't you keep holding on to let's fix this shit. Well, how did compassion become? A limited resource here. As though acknowledging mental illness somehow takes something away from the children. Exactly. It's not a finite pie. You know, it's not like well, if you if you give a piece away here that there's just nothing left and understanding the reason for something is not the same as excusing what happened. You know, and you can hold both truths at the same time. That she did something terrible and we still have compassion for the children and at least come to an intellectual understanding of why she did it. And what does this mean? And how do we move forward in the future? So we can have compassion for everyone who has a mental health condition. And

25:14that's really the healthy way to go here. Not this rage punishment creating monsters, creating teams, which citer you on. And then you hate everybody who doesn't agree with you. It's it's very disturbing to see that that yes, the complexity of the case, it just goes right over people's heads and they have the confirmation bias going and they see themselves as moral crusaders. It's disturbing. So how does someone like that that is on that maker? You know, she should burn no compassion and all that. If you ask the question, because everything the brain starts opening up with that one question, I haven't been able to ask this one yet. But for those people that are raging in the comments, what do you want to happen from here? Do you want this to ever happen again? And if you don't want to so that's the question, do you ever want this to happen again? No. Then what's the best way to not let this happen again? Is it to let her burn and not learn from it or is it do

26:14something so you can learn from it again? You don't have to have empathy or compassion for Lindsay or anyone else at all on this if you don't want to and focus on the children. If you don't want this to happen to children again, what's the best idea and things you can do right now that everyone can do to not let this happen again? That's it. Well, I think it comes in the same way of thinking where people are thinking it's going to happen regardless. No matter what, you know, we can put barriers in place, we can be more aware, but they're still going to be able to get through. Yeah, there are. This will happen again. There will be more people. But it's it's it's the same group who also refuses to do anything preventative to put the speed bumps in place so people aren't running people over in the Kmart parking lot. It's like, well, you know, well, people still speed through there and bottom out their car on the speed bumps. Yes, they will. But you know what? There's going to be far fewer of them because they're going to go a little bit slower next time because they know those speed bumps are there. Same thing here. If you can lower the percentage of the people that are going to have to go through this because we're trying to raise awareness for this so people can

27:19make better choices and assist people in a more effective way down the road. Those speed bumps, that extra awareness will save lives. Will it save everybody's? No, but to throw the baby out with the bath water and say, screw it, it's going to happen no matter what is about the most ignorant thing anyone could say after observing this trial. Yeah, and there's my soap box. That's a good one. That's a good one. I think one of the things that I am sure is going to come out of this is that mental health clinicians are going to be paying closer attention, right? Because nobody wants to be the therapist that didn't catch this. And I think not to say that the therapist were so negligent that they didn't catch anything. They were trying, but they weren't spending enough time and they weren't looking deep enough. And there were too many medications, not the right medications. We've talked about that. And I think there are lessons learned for people who work in

28:20the mental health field. Then I think that's going to make a difference moving into the future. I'm going to throw in here. I think X19 on here doesn't want kids to ever, once kids that have this happened to them again because they keep coming back with all the ifs, ifs, what this, what this. And I just looked it up right now. There has not been any shift in the baseline of philicide since they've been recording it. And so every single time we face one of these cases, and they're just thrown away. And we haven't learned. We let them burn. And even in the case where Andriiates was tried twice and actually was still behind bars. And she got not guilty by reason sanity. We haven't learned enough because we're not preventing it from happening because we have a lot of people saying, just burn, let them rot. And we're not learning from it. And you're not treating the situation with compassion really focusing. So focus like everyone keeps saying, you want to focus on the victims. Let the victims serve as an example of what we shouldn't let happen in our system, which happened here. And it's going to happen again. And less we learn and study her.

29:24She wants to be study. She wants people to learn from her because she knows she's broken. Good. Throw behind bars and let study her in the place which is suited for not general population. Hopefully there's enough people on this planet where there are those safeguards in place. So when something does inevitably happen to people who are denying it, or people that are close to them, they can be protected and not have to be at the the means of those who want to deny mental health. Your thoughts in the comments section on substacking YouTube will continue our conversation there. As we continue it right here, Patrick Clancy's attorney has now released his statement saying, Patrick and his family have been targeted by an escalating defamation campaign. I think that's putting it nicely. He says influencers and conspiracy theorists have spread baseless claims that Patrick was somehow involved in the deaths of core Dawson and Callan. He says those claims have threatened Patrick's reputation, livelihood and life law enforcement has been notified. That's that's part of

30:25the statement that was made a couple of weeks ago. We had attorney Eric Fattis on here and we were asking, uh, who should Patrick sue first? Because it's been getting insane. I've been saying, Patrick, you need to start suing people to shut them up. I hope to God. He does. Um, I mean, to just stop for a second and think about the fact that this statement ever became necessary. I was shocked when I first started hearing about it. Honestly, in this case, that people were blaming Patrick. I thought people were confusing the case with something else at first. I'm like, nah, like this is clearly not like, you're mixing it up with something else? No, no, people are, people came home and, uh, Patrick came home and discovered his children. The jury heard his 911 call. He testified about what happened. Nothing presented the trial implicated him in their deaths. Yet complete strangers picked through his grief, his forgiveness of Lindsay, his divorce, his new marriage where he lives and when he appeared in court and somehow, oh, and his walks, he went for a walk the other day in New York and had coffee, holy shit. And somehow turned their,

31:31their suspicion and smiled, woo, and turned the suspicion into an exact, an accusation. I mean, Shavon, what, what should have Patrick done? What could have Patrick done to prevent the masses from looking at him and going, you're a baby killer? Yeah, that's, I agree with you. That's probably the craziest thing about this. And someone the other day, again, wrote me on social media and said, well, I don't know much about this case, but everybody says the husband did it. And, and I'm kind of going along with that. And so I wrote back and said, where, what's the evidence for this? And she said, well, what I'm hearing, not, you know, just what I'm hearing is that he moved on too fast in a way that none of us could have done. And so my response to that was if I were his therapist, I would say this grief is going to be with you the rest of your life. You're going

32:31to be thinking about this every day. But what, what I would advise you to do is create a new life for yourself. You need to find joy. You need to find a sense of purpose. And that will look different for everyone, what that looks like. But I don't think the fact that he moved on eventually married, as you've said three years later, and has started a new family, there's nothing pathological about that. That's a healthy thing to do. And as a clinician, I would never say don't grieve. Of course, he's still grieving. He's always going to be grieving. This will never leave him. It's altered who he is. I'm sure it would for anyone. But I think as you said, Tony, what do you want him doing sitting in a dark room, being his head against the wall for? I mean, that's not healthy. He's got to build a new life. Does, does Patrick's forgiveness of Lindsay and rage people because

33:31they know that they couldn't be that strong to do that themselves? Is that really what it comes down to is people look at Patrick and they see a better man than they are and they know it deep down. They're never going to say that out loud. But they see a better man. They see a better human being take take sex out of it male female whatever they see a better soul, a better person who who was able to navigate this in a way that they would fail miserably at in every which way imaginable. And they know it because they're that weak will of human beings. And they see somebody that survived this. And for some reason, they look at that and go, that's threatening. I'd better demonize that. People do that. And I'm wondering if this is just some weird twisted prime example of that where the guy found a way to move on with his life successfully, healthily as best as you can after something like this still advocate for the woman who actually did this publicly forgave her. And they know it's not in me. So you're bad. I think that's a very good point and very likely.

34:34And the other piece that I don't think people get is the incredible intensity of the way psychosis works. They just don't get it. Someone else wrote to me and said on Facebook, I don't understand how his mother could forgive her. I mean, you know, the grandchildren were killed. And it just goes back to what we keep saying. It's because she was not her normal self. She was not in her right mind. She was completely transformed. She was not in reality. And clearly the family understands that they could see her change. And people just I have a hard time and probably because I've worked with so many psychotic people and had a few in my family, I get it. You know, I have seen very nice people literally have a psychotic break and behead their mother. I mean, you know, that's pretty extreme. And I could go on with a book of stories about things that very nice people

35:40have become psychotic and done. And other folks just don't seem to be able to wrap their head about what a transformation it is when your brain breaks to that degree. It doesn't even want to even go there. Yeah. In the middle ages, they called it demon possession and tried to exercise you. So I'm still do. And so another area, you know, besides the projection going on with Patrick's here too, I think that there's a lot of other things that can be contributing. So also, Shivon, do you think the image I have is Luigi, Luigi Mangio where people are celebrating him as a hero because he saw himself as a social justice warrior consequences be damned. And so is that what do you think some people are also doing is potentially have seen that, hey, I'm going to be a social justice warrior for the kids. So it's got to be an evil villain here. So regardless of the consequences, I could be sued for defamation here. I'm going to be a social

36:42justice warrior and stand against Patrick. Is that playing in it at all or? Yeah, yeah, very much. They see themselves as moral crusaders. And that's that moralizing identity fusion that they've got that I'm the one who's fighting here. I'm fighting for those children and it's lacking insight. It's confirmation bias. It's throwing out the facts, but it's very much become an identity for people where they're so fired up about it and they get so angry. And yeah, I'm worried for him, you know, for his safety because when people become crusaders like that, they can get dangerous. They can do really scary things, especially when you're self-righteous. Because again, then you have the self-radicalization going on where you it's easy to find people in these pockets online, whether it be TikTok or X-ray or else or discord, where they get in a group think mentality and they start ramping each other up and they start spinning out of control. And

37:43that's where the that's when it gets like you said, really, really dangerous. And so the social media is fueling throwing care scene. The algorithms are feeding it and the crazy nutters just go to the point of their own psychosis. I want to this is an interesting comment. And Shavon, you can probably shed some light. The case is getting worldwide attention for different reasons. Then you may think us Europeans are more mostly baffled by the 1920 style mental health care and the judicial system in the US in 2026. How accurate is that? Are we in a 1920s mental health system in the United States when the rest of the world looks at us and our understanding of things like this? I would even put us back earlier than 1920s. I think we can I think we can go back to 1800s. And yes, I've seen those those people talking about the devil and demon possession. And that psychosis, I mean, yeah, this actually I belong to groups on Facebook for parents of

38:43psychotic adult children. And so I monitor it just because it's fascinating to me. People are coping. And every now and then somebody will pop up and say, I believe my son is demon possessed and we've all got to pray. And there'll be a few handful of people who agree with that. So yeah, this country in many ways is still stuck. Stuck 100 years ago. And I think in many ways when it comes to health care, Europe has done a much better job. I haven't traveled in Europe extensively. I was in Madrid, Spain about 10 years ago. There were no homeless mentally ill people living on the sidewalks. You mean there's a way of handling that? I think it was was yesterday or day before we actually had one of our people in the chat said that they were from Norway and they I think was Norway, Norway. It was one of the Scandinavian countries, I believe, and said that they went to this would not be a case. She would not have even gone to trial. They wish she would have been put in a mental institution right away. And it's just standard. I mean, it's like a standard thing

39:47and that they were appalled. And then I remember looking at the chat, they were getting then pounded on by the evil righteous people saying, well, you know, country's evil. God, I don't live there. I mean, just we are nuts. Yeah, I mean, it's it's really fascinating to see the reaction because we do have a lot of listeners and other parts of the world outside of the United States. And it's been fascinating to see the reaction to this case versus those in the US, where we're just kind of we seem like we're battling each other just to understand the basics of this thing. And the rest of the world's looking at us like, what is wrong with you guys? Like, why is this such a, you know, in a lousy concept for you to wrap your minds around? And to that, I say, I don't know. That's why we're talking about it right now, which is even so if you think about it, I'm sorry, last point on it. So when you think about it, you have some countries in Europe and other places sure I'm been told that have that as a standard that is ones have gone to trial. She would have been found criminally insane and she would have just been institutionalized right from the get go. Meanwhile, in the United

40:50States, you only have a handful of states that are actually saying that you can actually have the defense of not being criminally responsible and the burden on the defense to say she isn't. I mean, that she is in the vice versa. I mean, we are we are so far out of sync with the rest of the world. That's why I think, um, Reddington during his, um, during his defense was saying he's laughing at the DSM trying to disprove what a what a bollocks thing the DSM is compared to the standard that Europe uses for mental health. Yeah, I mean, I mean, well, we live in a country too where, you know, you can go across a state line and in one state, you know, it exists. Mental illness exists. You know, 10 feet that way. It's it's witchery. I mean, this is where we are in 2026. It's still like that. Uh, so I think we have a long ways to go, uh, number one in our system catching up and then the psyche of our population getting there. We're going to be long dead if,

41:53if we ever get there and I'm kind of, I think it might kind of be our downfall, boy, honestly. Your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube as we continue to work through the Lindsey Clancy case throughout this episode. We've unpacked the fierce public division and the disturbing conspiracy theory surrounding the Lindsey Clancy tragedy, but to truly understand why this case is completely short circuited, the public psyche, we have to look at the underlying emotion driving all of this anger primal fear. There is a deep unspoken terror in admitting that the ultimate symbol of safety, a mother can be hijacked by a biological sickness. People are lashing up because accepting the reality of severe postpartum psychosis means accepting that we're not always in control of our own minds. Breaking it down with Shavon Scott psychotherapist and Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent chief of the counterintelligence behavioral analysis program. Um, Shavon society has this deeply ingrained almost sacred archetype of the perfect

42:59protective mother, whether we had one or not. When a case like this happens, it doesn't just seem to shock people. It completely short circuits are foundational understanding of maternal instinct. How much of the public's vitriol is actually just a defense mechanism to protect this, you know, this idea that mothers can't do this. This is, this is an impossibility. This is not who they are. So, so why could this possibly be unless she's possessed by the devil? Yeah, creating a monster as people have done in this case, I think allows psychological distance for people. It's like, well, that's, that's, you know, as you say, somebody who's demon possessed or someone who's just evil. And normal mothers would never do something like this. And, and yes, we, we have this vision of mothers as the special category of humans. And I can tell you, as I'm sure you run into, but I've certainly run into in my line of work,

44:01not all mothers love their children. Surprise. Yes, don't. Um, and sometimes many women, I mean, I hear this in therapy, um, where people will talk about the things that they don't talk about to other people, at least that's supposed to be how it works. Um, there are mothers who regret having their children. And, you know, they'll say I was never really cut out for this. And that certainly wasn't the case in Lindsay's situation who loved being a mother who, you know, did a wonderful job. But there is this, this blowback, I think you nailed it from people who just don't want to acknowledge that there's not an immediate intense, I mean, I think people have theories about women are biologically destined to, to bond and to be nurturing. And I, I don't think that that's true. I think that's a myth. And we need to understand that so that women can feel safe enough when they're struggling to come to somebody and, you know, disclose, I'm having a hard time here.

45:06And I, I just need help and support. I'm, I'm not adjusting to this. I'm worn out. I'm exhausted. All the things that real women say. So Shivan, in order for progress to happen in these areas that we wish them to happen in, it takes an ability to have a conversation, a dialogue as we've been talking about all day and for almost weeks now in this case. And we look at the five factor model personality assessment like we did before we started to show, you know, two, two main areas, I think really impact the ability for someone to have a great conversation about this and, and be open to ideas and to, and to innovate solutions and to be a critical thinker. And that is the ability to be open to new ideas and the agreeableness to have a good conversation without devolving into hatred, rants and everything else. And so when you're dealing with someone that we've seen ourselves surrounded with that aren't open and aren't agreeable to have in conversations as a therapist when you see this coming across your plate. I'm going to

46:07put you on a spot. You always ask those great questions and you give us great therapy examples. How do you inspire someone to start moving down the path to being more open and to being more agreeable when you encounter them? I whenever I feel like I'm budding up against somebody's rigid defense mechanism, it usually doesn't work to say you're foolish shit. Yeah. I've done that. I'm not always in my best frame of mind, but I try to be curious and get them to say more about why do you think this way? Why do you feel this way? What is this bringing up for you? And then I mean, I'm very open about using my family because I wrote about it in my book, right? I've got mentally old people in my family and I'll disclose that. And, and that's when I go back to, you know, I can use my, grew up with an ant with schizophrenia living with us part of the time and the crazy things that happened. And that has made me curious, which is one of the reasons I studied psychology. I want

47:13to understand the human mind. Why do people do weird things? You know, why do they have the struggles they have? And so just if, if we can stay calm and in our thinking brain and be curious and ask the person to say more, and that then can open the door and they can become less defensive. And then I'm very open about using myself. Or as I said, you know, heart disease, brain disease, it's all the same biologically, we can all get something like that and just come from a place of my own curiosity, openness and compassion. And that's when I'm in my, when I'm in my thinking brain and my best self. It's so amazing that the behaves of trust or transparent and transferable all across, you know, so in my line of work and all of our lines works the same thing when you engage everything with curiosity and you do what you just said, when you engage people with open-ons communication, transparency and vulnerability, shields come down, brains open up, ears open

48:14up, mouths start closing unless you're going like, I can't believe what I just heard. I mean, you're a Billy, and that's why again, not that we're putting a plug in for your book right now, and I saw someone in the chat already ball one. Her book is so good at being able to relate to everyone through the challenges she's been through, and I heard a fantastic read, listened to it twice, and I encourage you to get the audible because listen to Shivon all day long is very soothing for the soul. I'm going to move it around the screen like, remember like you said, like the bounce thing, bouncing back and forth, but yeah, it's a, it's a ability to communicate. Don't lock down, don't argue context and just be open. Oh my gosh, and it's hard because people right now trying to understand people's context and points of view right now has been so mentally exhausting for those of us that have been trying to understand where you're coming from so we can communicate because it's a move and target with people right now. You know, Rob, in a wide psychotherapist author of the book, Nightbird, named Shivon Scott, about two, a week ago, I think, told me, don't confront, be confused. Yes, I love that one. I wrote that down and I've written it down like

49:18seven times in different places this week because I love that. I mean, it is, it's, it's, it is. It's a great strategy for trying to, because you're exactly, yeah, I mean, I know that, I mean, I know that definitely you can't just go like you're an idiot. I'd love to say that to people, but it's not always the most effective if you're trying to win the hearts and minds of those around you. Um, and if you're looking for the emoji for it, I use it all time. It's this one. Yeah. I like it. Let's, I mean, another point here and we've touched on it a little bit, but let's talk the brain attack versus the heart attack. I mean, from, from a clinical perspective, why is it so incredibly difficult for people to separate a psychiatric illness from, from a person's character? If someone crashes a car and kills a pedestrian because they had a sudden heart attack, we, we call it a tragic medical event. It's not, they're hard wanting to kill everyone in the car. I mean, why does a brain attack automatically make someone an evil mastermind in the eyes of the public? I, I think it's back to that ignorance of people just not understanding

50:24that the brain is just another organ in the body. And we have this sense that our self and our character, um, is what it's all about. And in truth, I mean, we see this with people with severe head injuries, their personalities change. Yeah. And that's scary to think, yeah, I could be in a car accident, have a head injury and I lose my memories and I lose my impulse control and I'm not me anymore. And I don't think people understand that that when we have a disease, when we have something like bipolar, when we have something like schizophrenia, we're altered, we're changed. And nobody wants to think that that could happen to them. So it creates this psychological safe zone. If they say, no, it's a matter of character or no, it's Satan, you know, and, and it's like it could, it really could be any of us that have something like that happen. A stroke, you know, um, Alzheimer's, Alzheimer's. Yeah. I mean, that one's given grace to people with Alzheimer's

51:26and yet the same things happen. It's a disease of the brain that's killing the brain. And yet people have grace when people are saying and doing horrendous things there. Yeah. But they don't always. I mean, I think that's an interesting point. A lot of people don't. There's still plenty of people who function normally drive their car, take their kids to school, go to work, do everything, have a productive conversation in life who will look at a, an ailing individual in their life. Their parent, their grandmother, whatever, who who has Alzheimer's or dementia, and sit there and go, why don't you remember that, mom? That's true. Oh, come on. And they get so frustrated with these people as if being more frustrated or shaming them is somehow going to magically bring the memories back to life or make them, you know, understand that there's not sailboats out the window while they're sitting landlocked in Wichita, Kansas. I mean, it's, it's kind of maddening how again, people can, people still, I mean, they don't understand it there even in many ways. You're right. You're right. I've gotten into that with people online

52:31who are blaming their parent with Alzheimer's for not remembering. Yeah. And that sets me off because that's elder abuse, you know, when you're going after mom because she can't remember things and, and yeah, people don't, don't get it. I think we ought to be teaching about the brain in high school, you know, there should be a health class where we, we explain how the brain functions and the neurobiology and the, you know, just the basics. And certainly you can take classes in college, but obviously it's not required because I've run into college professors who are ignorant about this stuff. And, and we need to do a better job with it. The end of the day, we live amongst a lot of stupid people. And there's plenty of smart ones too. And I think that's it's like it's navigating that. It's navigating it. It's trying to understand it. We're all on a mission. It seems to have everyone be on the same wavelength of understanding, but we're never going to get there. It seems and in how, how do we, how do we coexist in an environment like that? I'm going to say probably

53:37find things that, let's just throw this out there. What about the folks who are listening to watching this right now who do have quite a rift in a relationship of their own right now? Maybe it's in their home. Maybe it's at work. Maybe it's something. Whatever it has to do with this case. And there's people are like, my God, how the hell do you think like that? And they're really feeling like, I have to question everything. I feel about you now because I don't know how your brain works this way or doesn't work this way. And it can go either way depending on where that person standpoint is. What would you say to that individual right now to kind of cool the temperature down and allow people to keep moving forward without killing each other themselves? It's tough. We run into this. A lot of people have divorced over politics. I mean, I like to think that if it's a solid relationship, people can take a breath, be curious, and understand that maybe they don't have to agree 100% on everything to be in a relationship. I mean, you'll see people split with their parents over things like this because they disagree.

54:42But bottom line sometimes it's just not going to work. And when people get really rigid and in this moral, you're evil if you don't agree with me. I mean, maybe there's a good marriage counselor who can kind of help with that. Not me. I don't want to. I don't want to. Last week you gave a great example about how you canceled in marriages though. I thought, you know, about how you got one partner to listen to the other partner. I mean, you give such great, that's why I love asking the question, what would Shavon say in this situation? And you just, your beautiful one line of velvet poetry coming out about how to get people to inspire to think differently. I'm going to tell my husband when he gets annoyed with my opinions. It's velvet poetry. I'm going to listen to my velvet poetry. I mean, I may do that. Yeah. It's good. And you took good pictures of you and him this week, by the way, that you post it. Those are yeah. All right. Nightbird is Shavon's book. Go check it out. Available wherever you give books. Also, the minds of mass killers. In case you want to go down that road too,

55:44there's plenty to jump into there. So go check that out. Robin Drake, retired FBI special agent, and host of his own master class now. Robin, tell them about that. Yeah. Check it out on master class. So wherever you get master class that is masterclass.com backslash Robin Drake is about behavioral assessment. All things we're talking about today and really it comes down to become the person people trust. Link is definitely link is also in the description. Go and check that out and do allow give us your thoughts in the comments section and substack in YouTube. If you've not weighed in yet, all right. Until next time for Robin, Shavon, Lisa and Todd, I'm Tony. We'll talk again real soon.