Loading...
Loading...

“We put the money where Europe's priorities are. Many people may think defence is about tanks. No, defence is also about energy security. It is about social cohesion and territorial cohesion. That's the European brand. So we need to act in all these areas in order to ensure peace, security, stability on our continent.” Peter Macjob speaks to Nadia Calviño, President of the European Investment Bank, about Europe’s shifting priorities, and the growing urgency around defence and security. With wars, energy shocks and tariffs reshaping the global economy, Europe is being forced to rethink its position in a changing world. The EIB is the EU’s lending arm, mobilising billions of euros to finance infrastructure, energy and technology projects across Europe and the developing world. Calviño, a former Spanish finance minister, took on the role in 2024 at a time of war in Ukraine, rising geopolitical tensions and growing strain on global trade. The Interview brings you conversations with people shaping our world, from all over the world. The best interviews from the BBC, including episodes with UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres and free speech campaigner Maria Ressa. You can listen on the BBC World Service on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays at 0800 GMT. Or you can listen to The Interview as a podcast, out three times a week on BBC Sounds or wherever you get your podcasts. Presenter: Peter Macjob Producers: Osman Iqbal and Lucy Sheppard Editor: Justine Lang and Damon Rose Get in touch with us on email [email protected] and use the hashtag #TheInterviewBBC on social media.
(Image: Nadia Calviño Credit: Krisztian Bocsi/Bloomberg via Getty Images)
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.
The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people,
so when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads.
LinkedIn has grown to a network of over one billion professionals,
including 130 million decision makers,
and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.
You can target your buyers by job title, industry,
company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue,
so you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.
It's why LinkedIn ads generate the highest B2B return on ad spend
of major ad networks.
Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads
and get $250 credit for the next one.
Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast.
That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast.
Terms and conditions apply.
Investing with Schwab is like a hike,
with endless trails that get you to the same beautiful sunset.
Go solo with self-directed investing.
Choose a guide with full service wealth management.
Or take stops along the way,
with trading, automated investing,
and planning for college or retirement.
Schwab gives you the map and the gear,
all in one place,
no matter which trails you take.
You can invest your way with Schwab.
Hello, I'm Peter Magjob, BBC presenter,
and this is the interview from the BBC World Service.
The best conversations coming out of the BBC.
People ship in our world from all over the world.
If you're not a little bit afraid,
then you're not paying attention.
You have never seen a people so united.
Do not make that boat crossing.
Do not make that journey.
Being born in America,
feeling American,
having people treat me like I'm not.
We're more popular than populism.
For this interview, I met Nadia Carvino,
the president of the European Investment Bank,
in Luxembourg.
A former Spanish finance minister,
who now oversees the AU's huge lending arm,
mobilizing billions of euros to finance infrastructure,
technology, and energy projects across Europe
and the developing world.
You're going to hear about how Europe needs to find this place
in a shifting global order.
And why Nadia Carvino believes the continent
is an economic superpower and needs to act like one.
But with wars, energy concerns,
and tariffs rocking the global economy,
Europe's priorities are shifting
with an increasing urgency around defence and security.
We're the European Investment Bank,
so we put the money where Europe's priorities are right now.
This means climate, technology, security and defence
and social infrastructures and the rest.
So I think that all of it is very much
underpinning competitiveness and security.
Many people may think,
oh well, defence is about tanks now.
Defence is also about energy security, isn't it?
It is about resilience to health,
as we learned very, very clearly with the COVID pandemic.
It is about social cohesion and territorial cohesion.
It is about social infrastructures.
That's the European brand.
That's the European way of life.
So we need to act in all these areas
in order to ensure peace,
security, stability on our continent,
but also in our neighbourhood.
And that's what the European Investment Bank has in its DNA.
And that's where we're good at.
Welcome to the interview from the BBC World Service
with Nadia Carvino.
How important is the strong Europe when you look at the
current geopolitical landscape?
Well, we see that the geopolitical context,
the global order is reshaping.
Some say it is actually crumbling down.
I think there is a new global order that will emerge,
but we are in the midst of this transformation.
And we're entering a new phase, as we see.
And in this context, it's more important than ever
that Europe acts as a beacon of democracy,
of human rights, respect,
win-win partnerships where everybody wins,
in order for you to have a success,
you don't need others to lose,
which seems to be the approach of some others,
you know, in these troubling times.
An approach that fosters peace and mutual respect,
I think that this is really important.
And Europe has learned lessons throughout our history.
Unfortunately, that can be very valuable for the world
as we are building this new world order.
You identified four key urgent action plans.
That includes having a deeper European integration,
large-scale investment,
especially in critical infrastructure,
simplification of the EU,
making it more nimble, more agile,
and of course, more partnerships and global alliances.
Can you break that down a little bit?
Well, it is clear that, you know,
sometimes we focus very much on what is happening
on the other side of the Atlantic,
whether there is a tariff that is being imposed
or that there are new technologies
and supply chains around the world are changing.
But actually, Europe is a superpower.
The European Union represents 450 million persons.
Of course, much more when we talk about the UK, Switzerland, and Norway.
And if we think about those sectors that are key for the future,
Europe is a superpower, technology superpower,
whether it's quantum technologies, aerospace,
health, tech, many people may think,
oh, this is very far from me,
but more and more, I think that we're all aware
that these technologies are going to be key in our daily lives.
So, if we build on our strengths
and we have a larger, real integrated,
one market in Europe,
then that is going to create the right scale
for companies to be able to thrive and scale up.
And likewise, when it comes to simplification,
reducing bottlenecks,
reducing friction and fragmentation,
and large scale investments.
And that's where the European Investment Bank comes in.
Of course, it's a great success story of the European Union
with capital injection by the member states.
Now, 27, originally 28,
have been able to mobilize trillions of investment
that finance the super infrastructures
that we have from highways to airports,
also research centers, universities,
and hospitals and frameworks
that can build networks and partnerships around the world.
What are your key priority areas for investment right now?
I mean, there's a lot that the AIB is doing
across the region, but also implicit like Africa and Latin America,
but in terms of your priority,
what would you say is the Niggling one right now?
I mean, there's a lot that the AIB is doing
across the region, but also in places like Africa and Latin America?
But in terms of your priority,
what would you say is the the Niggling one right now?
Well, 90% of our finances, as you rightly say, finances projects inside the EU, 10% around
the world. But our priorities are similar in all areas. And our shareholders have unanimously
supported them last in 2024. So we're keeping the course in being the climate bank,
making the green transition, the clean transition of European success that leads to lower energy
prices, cleaner, more sustainable energy. And as we are seeing these days in the Middle East
with the escalation of the conflict, we need to accelerate our energy autonomy in Europe.
That's very clear. Second priority, technological leadership, supporting high-risk,
innovative technologies, whether it is in clean tech or spaces, I mentioned.
That ensures that Europe continues to be a technology powerhouse. And third priority,
security and defence, because it is very clear we need to step up our support and our strength
in the area of security and defence. We're also very active in agriculture and bio-economy,
of course we support territorial cohesion, but probably these three areas are our top priorities
right now. I noticed that with your funding for defence, it's quadrupled in the last year,
and you've broken it down into five key areas, investing in infrastructure, homegrown capacity,
i.e. drones, etc., research, SMEs within the supply chain, and of course new venture capital
within the EU focused on security and defence. Could you elaborate on the decisions behind
quadrupling the budget, but also how you intend to go down the ecosystem?
Yes, when I took the helm of the European Investment Bank in January 2024,
the war in Ukraine had been going on for almost two years, and it was clear to me that we needed to
step up our support in this area, which was virtually non-existent at that time. And it is
impressive how in a matter of a couple of years we've been able to build a very robust pipeline,
we've been able to finance last year, around four billion euros, reaching five percent of our
finance inside the EU, and these five areas are determined by the pipeline of projects we have.
And those areas where the European Investment Bank is uniquely placed, there is no other
institution in Europe and in public or private, that operates in all the 27 member states in all
the regions and can provide really large scale long-term finance, loans that may run up to 30 years
in good financial conditions, so as to finance, military mobility, infrastructure,
military compasses, but also high-risk research programmes,
scale-up also venture capital investments, acting as an anchor investor that brings in private
capital to support the ecosystem of startups and scale-ups in Europe. And what I see is great
potential. I have myself visited a number of companies that show that this technological
leadership is there, and what we need is to reach scale and speed.
Are you or is the AI beyond that some pressure to be the financier of the fence within Europe?
Where the European Investment Bank, so we put the money where Europe's priorities are.
Right now, these means climate, technology, security and defence, and social infrastructures
and the rest, so I think that all of it is very much underpinning competitiveness and security.
Many people may think, oh well, defence is about tanks, now defence is also about energy,
security, isn't it? Absolutely. It is about resilience to health as we learned very, very
clearly with the COVID pandemic. It is about social cohesion and territorial cohesion.
It is about social infrastructures. That's the European brand, that's the European way of life.
So we need to act in all these areas in order to ensure peace, security, stability
on our continent, but also in our neighbourhood. And that's what the European Investment Bank has
in its DNA and that's where we're good at. Some reports have shown that over 60% of EU companies
complain about a fragmentation within the market when it comes to exporting.
You know, some estimates from the International Monetary Fund consider that the fragmentation
existing in our internal market is actually comparable to a 45% tariff when it comes to goods.
And even 110% tariff when it comes to services, you know, I see this as a huge opportunity.
I'm wondering, this strength that Europe has is almost like a reminder to the rest of the world
to say Europe has always been a superpower, but we was happening now in the geopolitical system.
It was an opportunity for Europe to remind the world that we are here and we are the stable
partner that you can rely on regardless of what's happening around the world.
Yeah, absolutely. You nailed it because many times with these doom and gloom around us and as we see
war and death and blood around us and conflicts, it is sometimes overwhelming.
And citizens feel insecure and they wonder, you know, and obviously the European Union is a project
of peace. So we cannot be a defense and a military superpower when we have been building a project
of peace on the ashes of the wars that have permeated the European history. So it sometimes
we need to remind ourselves. And I think the investment report, although it may be very far away,
is a very good illustration because we build this report on the basis of the analysis of 13,000
companies in the EU and in the US. And these years report confirms what we already saw last
year, which is that European companies are weathering the storm quite well. European companies
are showing remarkable resilience. They have been withholding the tariff shock better than
US companies because they have redirected the trade. They have benefited from the 76 investment
in trade agreements that the EU has signed around the world. They have built new partnerships
and new supply chains. And so that has allowed them to be quite resilient to the tariff shock,
likewise to the energy shock. What we see that the European companies have continued to grow,
to invest, to trade. And they are committed to the green transition and the integration of
new technologies in their productive systems. And when it comes to advanced manufacturing,
industrial robotics, aerospace, quantum, health tech, these are areas where European companies
are second to none. So we have to also have a bit more of self-esteem and believe more in ourselves
because when we act and that has been proven time and again, we can be having a very strong
influence in the rest of the world, a force for good in these troubling times.
You are listening to the interview from the BBC World Service.
The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people. So when you want to reach the right
professionals, use LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals,
including 130 million decision makers. And that's where it stands apart from other
ad buys. You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role,
seniority, skills, company revenue. So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience.
It's why LinkedIn ads generates the highest B2B return on ad spend of major ad networks.
Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get $250 credit for the next one.
Just go to LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com slash broadcast. Terms and
conditions apply. This is Byrd Winthrop, founder of American Giant. We make all our clothing right
here in the US with American cotton and American workers. Get 20% off your first order when you use
code giant20 at American-giant.com. My conversation with Nadia Carvino was not confirmed
until the last minute, following weeks of negotiation with her press team.
In fact, it wasn't until her videographer appeared to film her arrival that I knew the interview
was on. In person, she had undeniable presence, flanked by media staff, and a stern looking
minder. As we spoke, I was struck by her enthusiasm and a close grasp on the detail of the work
she's leading for the EIB. Okay, let's return to my conversation with Nadia Carvino.
Let's talk about the EU single market. This is a 19 trillion economy, the European Union.
Is the market underutilized? Are there enough commercial activities to attract the kind of
investment that you're clamoring for? You're absolutely right that when it comes to the size of
our market, it is comparable to the US in comparable terms when we take into account the currencies
and the prices, and it is in nominal terms also comparable to China. So Europe is a superpower,
and it is perceived to be a superpower by the rest of the world. Sometimes others see what we can't.
So what we need is to build on this single market, on this one market, remove the inefficiencies,
simplify processes, and allow companies to scale up. That is probably the one area where we do
have a serious gap, because we have a vibrant ecosystem of startups, which is comparable to the
American one, but we are in a way the incubator of the world. They grow, they start to grow, and we
support them, and they're doing great, but when they need to really become adults, when they need
to have 500 million euros or even more in their capital, then they have to go to the other side
of the Atlantic, because even though Europe has large savings, there are no suitable investors,
venture investors that are ready to take the risk and put up a large amount, a large ticket.
And that is the gap that we need to fill. When we do that, then European companies will be able
to grow and thrive here in Europe. How do you think we can find these investors? These risk tolerant
investors, the ones possibly willing to take losses, but committed to the long term,
what steps do you think needs to be taken to be able to find these investors?
There is no magic wand to mobilize these investors. Only this morning I had a meeting with
some of the largest European foundations, non-profit institutions that are extremely
interested to support us, but they are also subject to regulations, to rules, to restrictions,
as to how much venture capital they can have in their portfolio. For example,
there are tax divergences between the different countries, there are different rules and regulations,
there are hindrances and disincentives for these institutions to take risk. And here's where the
European Investment Bank Group can help, because our institution is a catalyzer of private
investment. Last year, we represented around 30% of venture debt in Europe, a 25% of
venture capital in the European Union. And that gives us a very good role to catalyze this
private investor. See how we can do risk investments, how we can accompany them,
co-invest with insurance companies, pension funds, but we also need regulatory changes in parallel
so that they are able to take this additional risk. And we can mobilize those deep pockets,
those trillions that are invested or lying in just credit accounts and current accounts in
the banks or in other non- not-so-productive investment instruments.
Although the AIB primarily looks after the region in terms of investment, but also there's a lot
of commitment outside of the region. Now, you've signed a couple of deals already this week,
a couple of agreements, one unique one, a pioneering arrangement with the World Trade Organization,
which is supposed to help remove barriers to trade and investment and give partner countries
an opportunity and access to European businesses. Can you expanse a little bit, Madam President,
about how important these agreements is with the WTL?
Yes, we have signed in the course of this week two very important agreements, one with the World
Trade Organization and the head Dr. Angosi. She is very committed to mobilizing investment,
in particular in Africa, and trying to foster those reforms that can facilitate trade and
investment in this region. And, you know, it's an example of a win-win partnership because
African countries need investment and European companies, of course, are interested to invest in
these countries. So we will be providing technical assistance, we will be analyzing
what measures, how we can, from the European Investment Bank, support those companies that want
to operate first and foremost in Africa and then we'll see in the rest of the world.
Likewise, when it comes to the Gavi, that's the Vaccine Alliance, Dr. Sanyan Ishtar,
the CEO of the Vaccine Alliance, many people maybe don't know, you know, that this institution
exists, which is fantastic, because not only does provide vaccine security around the world
and has grown enormously, of course, since the pandemic, but it also facilitates the building
of vaccine manufacturing capacities, facilities around the world, and in particular in Africa.
So the European Investment Bank is partnering with the Gavi so that we transform pledges,
where finance ministers from around the world are pledging in the coming years,
we're going to contribute X million pounds or euros or dollars to the vaccine alliance.
What we do is we transform those pledges into real money so that the manufacturing facility
can start to be built, you know, because we provide the liquidity, and we have this on top of that,
we also provide financing for vaccine campaigns, also mostly in Africa, but also in other parts of
the world. And that is again a win-win partnership, because as Europeans, we are interested in ensuring
global health. It's one world, it's one health, and also European companies that are very strong
in the pharma industry are also benefiting, you know, that there is this broader market for their
products. So these are areas where the EIB is uniquely placed to join forces with foundations,
with public institutions around the world, and make a difference. We have signed a 1 billion
euro contribution to Mission 300, which is an initiative launched by the World Bank and the
African Development Bank. The head of the African Development Bank was here this week, and we
signed these, we announced this contribution to a mission which is very clear, very, with a very
clear objective. Ensuring the 300 million persons have access to affordable, clean energy in Africa
by 2030. It is a, it is a so important, obviously, it's the basis of development access to energy.
So we will be partnering with these two large institutions so that together we can have a larger
impact to the benefit of our continent, you know, our neighbouring country and our brothers and
sisters on the other side of the Mediterranean, also contributing to more stability, more prosperity,
more robust societies in our neighbourhood. Finally, Madam President, when we talk about energy,
looking back into Europe, possibly maybe the only aspect where the EU is slightly vulnerable,
how urgent is it for Europe to be energy-sovred? There is one lesson coming to us from the
War in Ukraine, and now the escalation of the conflict in the Middle East is that it is urgent,
that Europe regains energy autonomy. We are an energy importing continent. We are,
we discovered in 2022 that we were too dependent on fossil fuel producers. This continues to be
an evidence, and so the revolution, the energy revolution which is in full swing in Europe,
you know, the number, the volumes of renewable energy have doubled in a matter of years.
The European Investment Bank is very heavily invested into energy grids, the deployment of
renewables, decarbonisation of heavy industry, also energy efficiency of SMEs, because obviously
the cheapest energy is the one that's not consumed. We are really in the middle of this process of
transition, now we need to press ahead, accelerate this transition so that we can reduce our reliance
our dependence on other regions, and that we can be more autonomous when it comes to energy.
Thank you for listening to the interview. For more compelling conversations,
search for the interview wherever you get your BBC podcast. You'll find episodes where
Ukraine's president Vladimir Zelensky, Jamie Diamond, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase,
plus many others. Until next time, bye for now.
This is Bired Winthrop, founder of American Giant. I started this company because I was fed up
with cheap clothes that didn't last, and companies that shipped manufacturing overseas.
We believed we could still make incredible clothing right here in the US with American cotton
and American workers earning real wages. That's what we stand for. Making clothes that actually
last, get 20% off your first order when you use code giant20 at american-giant.com.
For Lauren even, like your efforts are futile, and you can spend a fortune trying to find fabulous
people, only to get flooded with candidates who are just fine. Fortunately, Zippercrooter figured out
how to fix all that. And right now, you can try Zippercrooter for free at zippercrooter.com slash
zip. With Zippercrooter, you can forget your frustrations, because we find the right people for
your roles fast, which is our absolute favorite F word. In fact, four out of five employers who post
on Zippercrooter get a quality candidate within the first day. Fantastic. So, whether you need to
hire four, 40, or 400 people, get ready to meet first rate talent. Just go to zippercrooter.com slash
zip to try Zippercrooter for free. Don't forget that's zippercrooter.com slash zip. Finally,
that zippercrooter.com slash zip.

The Interview

The Interview

The Interview