NYT Obituary Writer Sam Roberts on What Obits Reveal About Life, Death, and Legacy + His New Book 'Are They Dead Yet?'

0:00Okay, Sam Roberts is here. I think this is a first Sam for my show. I don't think I've ever had any... I think it is. I think it is. I don't think I've ever had anyone on. That's really talked about death. And you have been a New York Times obituary writer. What was it over 1600 obits that you've written? Yup, I buried a lot of people. Although you could argue they weren't buried. I was sort of elevated by being obituarized in the New York Times. Sam, I know you grew up in Brooklyn, but take us back when you were a young boy. Did you were you fascinated by death? Were you like, I'm going to be an obituary writer? Sarah, exactly the opposite. I came from a culture, a family culture, a denial of death. For instance, when my dad died, his sister, my aunt, was asked about six months later, how is Arthur doing? Her brother. And the best my aunt could muster was so, so.

1:05That was six months after he died. So when I was asked about ten years ago at the Times to write obituaries, I wasn't really that pleased. But I quickly realized, as I pointed out in the book, that obituaries are not about death at all. They're about lives. And there are no ordinary lives I discovered. People are just intrinsically fascinating. And in all of those 15, 1600 obituaries that I've written for the Times, I've run across so many people who I wish I had known. And the best compliment readers have paid to me is you brought that person to life. And it sounded like you knew that person. In fact, the Transivos were pretty good that I had only heard about them a couple of hours before I started writing the obituary. You mentioned that. You have a book out. Are they dead yet? The art of the obit.

2:07Sam, why did you feel that it was important to write a book about obituaries in our deaths? Serbius, most people don't really know what obituaries are all about. They confuse them with death notices, with eulogies, newspaper, news obituaries, or supposed to be fairly objective. They're not chronological. They're not stenographic. As Anne Rowe, the obituary editor of the economist, says she tries to capture someone's soul, the essence of their life, what motivated them to do whatever they did, what impact did they have, why were they transformative or not. And what I've tried to do in writing a obituary, is that I mentioned this in the book, is look for the Rosebud moment, if you will, evoking the final first scene from Citizen Kane by the Orson Wells film, when he is on his deathbed and mutters Rosebud,

3:13and the documentarians spend the whole rest of the film trying to figure out what it is. So what is the epiphany? What is the turning point in someone's life that made them so interesting, so celebrated, so important, so elevated, that they've married into obituary than New York Times? Sam, you talk about finding that Rosebud moment, but obviously it's the New York Times. Many famous people living New York, come from New York, are written about in the Times. So how do you decide what you're going to write about? Let's be honest. You've written about people who have had affairs, who have been mob bosses. I mean, do you include the bad? Like how do you decide what you're going to include? That is the toughest decision, Sarah, that as an obituary writer or editor, we make the first is who gets an obituary. About 150,000 people die every day. In the New York Times, we have room from maybe three or four on a daily basis. So that is a very subjective decision.

4:21So I already explained to someone that their father, who was a country doctor, who saved scores of lives, doesn't get an obituary, but a mass murderer does. Very difficult. That is one of the toughest things of the job. The second thing is what you will do. When someone committed a misdeed when they made a mistake in their life, when there was some anomaly in their behavior, how do you fit that in the obituary into the whole arc, the trajectory of their lives? That is a very, very difficult thing to do. Not long ago, I wrote an obituary about Charles Wrangel, who was the first black chairman of the Ways and Means Committee in the House. The Harlem congressman toward the end of his career was censored by the House for an ethics violation. Well, do you call him a disgraced former congressman or do you try and put that episode in some sort of perspective? Very, very difficult to do.

5:24I didn't think it merited being emphasized. And one measure of that was after he was censored, his own constituents reelected him. So that was a sort of validation that I think he got from his own people who knew him best, and which I think pushed that episode down into the obituary, not into the lead or the headline. You talked about it. You just mentioned it, the New York Times, like obviously you can only write about a few deaths every single day. So how does the times, how do you select who's going to be written about? With great difficulty and with great second guessing by ourselves, we start with a list that may have dozens of names on it, come from other newspapers, wire services, magazines, family, big source that tell us about the death, colleagues, friends.

6:25And then we try to we know them down on the basis of who is important, who is significant, who made an impact on our culture, because collectively as I say in the book, I think obituary is for reflect what we value as a society. And then who is intrinsically interesting, the woman who invented the recipe for tall house chocolate chip cookies, the man who scientists who taught monkeys how to smoke the value established that cheerleader school in Texas and made cheerleader into a professional sport. You know, these people might not have been transformative per se, but they did have some impact on society or emblematic of some sort of transformative event or trend. And all of them turn out to be interesting. You know, as I say, there are no ordinary people.

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8:45Sam, did you get the honor of writing Dolly Partens obituary this week? Unfortunately not. Dolly Partens was probably written decades ago. It is one of our 2000 or so advanced obituary's which we write about important people in case they die suddenly or people who are however we define elderly. And you know we want to be have a prepared obit in case they die at once. I remember I was home one weekend at the obituary I did or called and said we needed obituary bill Richardson the form of governor of New Mexico. And I said why don't we have an advanced obituary and he said well he was only 75 so the criteria for choosing who gets an advanced obituary changes over time obviously with demographics. I was writing one of David Rockefeller who eventually died over a hundred and a friend of mine who had worked for Rockefeller called me and said I just want to warn you of something.

9:55And I said well what's that what are you going to tell me that David Rockefeller was good friend of the publisher and I should be careful what I say. He said no, nothing like that. I just want to let you know that three New York times obituaries have written David Rockefeller's obituary and they're all dead. So fortunately I survived that. Okay, that would have been warning enough I would have tore up David's but okay, so at any given time the times has about 2000 you kind of alluded to it governors. Obviously like Rockefellers and Morgan's and people that are still we call them the nearly departed. Wow, so 2000 of those always written what are some celebrity names like do you already have Tom Cruz is done and Brad pits are they too young. No, they're not too young because of course I could die suddenly and Brock stars in particular. I've had ten to see to die young so we've got a lot of them on file of rap stars as well.

10:59And you just never know when someone is going to die either natural causes or some event that's accidental. Sam, what have you learned about life through writing about death? Like what are people you know when you talk to families or when you look at people's histories like do you kind of get a sense of like people's regrets or people's like biggest accomplishments? What do you think you've learned about living through this? Well, Sarah, that's a very good question. I wrote two obituries recently advanced obituries. One was on John Sexton, the former president of New York University. He found out that he was facing death within a matter of months from terminal cancer. And I interviewed him and the way he embraced his life, even facing death to me was such a teaching moment. Here was a man who had taught all his life in college and law school and what he learned and what his attitude toward death was was so revealing, so enlightening, so uplifting.

12:07And then I did another interview for an advanced obituary, Pat Thaler, who was the sister former mayor at Koch of New York called me and said she wanted me to do it, her advanced obituary. And I said, well, are you okay? And she said, no, I am dying of cancer. And I have chosen to take my own life in a few days. And I had never done an advanced obituary like that. And I said, I explained in the book, she told me why she made this decision. She was tired of suffering. There was no more mitigating treatment. She chose a Saturday to take her own life. So she went to inconvenience her family who were working people. And again, it taught me an amazing lesson of when people say they've had enough, when to call it quits. And their whole attitude and what they learned about life and death, it taught me and has taught me a great deal.

13:09Well, someone who, as I say earlier, was totally unused to confronting death and dealing with death only in a matter of denial. It taught me that you face up to it, that it's a common occurrence, that we don't know what happens after death. That's kind of one of those questions you can answer. I quote Woody Allen, the book in the book, is saying, I don't believe in an afterlife, but I'm taking an extra pair of underwear just in case. So you just never know, and you never know how people are going to react to death. And that's what makes writing about it so interesting. When people, when you can interview them in advance, for an advance obituary and find out their reflections on their own lives, when you have the use of the internet, which we've ever had before to enrich an obit when you're doing the research on someone who has already died.

14:09There are memoirs, there are oral histories, there are video interviews that before the internet were simply not available and now are, you know, come close to letting us replicate what the person in more herself might say about their own lives. So it sounds like one of the biggest things that you have learned is like the people that embrace death, they kind of live the fullest lives because they, there's almost like a level of gratitude or, you know, like Ed Koch's relative who kind of planned it out, you know, yeah, that's really interesting because you're right, nobody really wants to face their own death. You know, it's, it's there, but you never want to think about it because I mean, I'm with Woody Allen, there better be something going on after like I better not be in the dirt the whole time like I better see people that are fun. I'll bring it up. Well, I'll look forward to something. Well, it's funny because Frustrass, the New York cartoon is said she almost died laughing reading my book.

15:11On, you know, death is serious death is something we take seriously we have a responsibility, writing about it, but it is also quirky. And this book is is kind of meant to be irreverent. What's the history of obituaries? Why do we write them? Why do we read them? I begin with a quote from William Saroyan, the author who says one of the reasons we read them is because all those people are dead and we're still alive. So, you know, maybe there's some secret satisfaction in that in knowing that we have survived and perhaps we can learn from the lives of others. Hey, that's a good question. Why are more obituaries though not really funny? They're, you know, they are, they're, they're not necessarily always depressing because like you said, it gives a full picture of people's lives, but I do, when I die, I want mine to be really funny and I want like a pink gravestone. I'll keep that line, sir. Okay. Okay. Pink Graves. Don't use a news because death is a serious thing. We are writing not only for our readers, but also the families, friends, colleagues of people who have died.

16:20But what some people don't get is that a published newspaper, news obituary is not in Komi, it's not a eulogy. It's a more or less objective view of that person's life and what they accomplished, what their motivations were in accomplishing what mistakes or regrets they may have had along the way. And with luck, things that are funny or humorous or light that might have occurred in their life too, which explained who they really were as human beings. And I think that's important because it gives a better, well-rounded picture of who the person is. It gets to their soul, it gets to their essence. So it's not just stenographic or chronological. When Mel Brooks dies at 111, honey, you better make that one funny. You're not kidding. One of those people who inspired the title of the book actually, are they dead yet?

17:22We were talking about people at the times and said, well, is that person still alive? Is that person dead? And I persuaded Frank Bruney at the times to write an article, are they dead yet? And he interviewed a number of people, Bob Keishan, Captain Handerru, he interviewed the actor Abe Vagoda. And Abe Vagoda said he's been dead so long that he has learned to live with it because so many people are dead. Yeah, Mel Brooks is one of those and every once in a while he pops up on a red carpet and you're always like, oh my god, he's such a legend, he's still alive. And it's all Mel Brooks. Sam, what's something that families usually really want in an obituary? And you're like, no, no, that doesn't need to be there. Well, they want how great the person was, how friendly they were, how helpful they were, how benevolent they were, and what they don't want is anything negative. I wrote an obituary about a New York philanthropist who gave a vast amount of money to our curing preventing treating cancer.

18:29And I pointed out in the obituary that a lot of the family money came from the tobacco industry. Well, believe me, the family did not want that in the obituary. In another case that I point out in the book, someone a man called and said his father had died. He was the first Korean American prosecutor. Well, that's a tough thing to prove, but I think I narrowed it down and did that. But in the course of my research, Sarah, I found out that he had once been disborded for embezzling a client's money. And then you say, well, do you do the obituary anyway? Do you include that in the obituary or not? And it turned out not even the family had been aware that the father had been disborded. And because he was the first we did do the obituary and included that, but it turned out to be such an anomalous event in the man's career that it wasn't in the lead, the first paragraph of the obituary or the headline.

19:32But we did feel compelled to mention it. Sam, on my show, I talk a lot about celebrities and reality TV people. You obviously, you know, celebrity in your world can be a governor, can be a lawyer. But whose death star or not star really caught you off guard that you were like, wow, I never, I didn't think that person would die now or I'm this kind of took you back. Well, a lot of people, particularly the actors, Philip Seymour Hoffman, other people like that who died well before the time Rob and Williams, of course. And some of those we did not have advanced obituary for. And as I point out in the book, it meant writing them on, forgive the expression deadline. And, you know, when we were only concerned about the print paper, that meant you had a couple of hours at the, you know, least, you were writing for the next day's paper. Now with the internet, it's much more like a wire service. We have deadlines that are instantaneous. And you've got to get that obituary online as quickly as possible, which of course is why we do prepare to obituary.

20:43It's why we do advance obits because when those people die, we want to make sure we are more prepared than we otherwise would be. Yeah, Robin Williams, that one was so shocking, you know, even dollies was, I mean, you know, she's 80. So, okay, but still, you know, just such a vibrant human being. So I'm sure. A vibrant human being who sort of transcended politics was a terrific performer, but also a great talent as a songwriter too. And, you know, she deserved all of the attention she got. And it was interesting that she was greeted virtually unanimously across the country as a star and someone worthy of the obituary coverage that she received. And so by partisan, you know, I mean, you kind of forgot until she passed like how much everybody loved her all sides, not political. I mean, you know, it's like that's kind of rare right now. So it was, yeah, that her death has just been, you know, taking it all in.

21:46Are they dead yet is the book? What other, what other things should we know about the book? You know, you, you talked a little bit about the title, why it was written about how someone gets in obituary. But what else is in the book? Well, we talk about the history of obituary's why they began how they've changed over time. The fact that the British papers for obituary's that are brutal in their honesty. We talk about in the book about famous last words, which for the most part I don't believe. I think the most credible famous last words are the most pedestrian I'm dying or get me some water or please help. But there are famous last words or words that are believed to be last that are worth remembering. What am I favorite is Oscar Wilde who is dying in a CD Paris hotel. And he supposedly said near his death. I've been a death struggle either those that wallpaper goes or I go. I mean, it's the kind of thing that Oscar Wilde would have been capable of. On the other hand, Karl Marx was asked for his last words. And he said, go on, get out last words are for people who haven't said enough when they were still alive.

23:08You could believe that Karl Marx said that and he had certainly said enough when he was alive. So, you know, I don't ask people about last words. And I don't ask them another question, which we discussed earlier. And maybe I should and that is what they think comes next after their death. In doing an advanced obituary that might elicit some fascinating answers. You know, we know what comes after death is sort of ineffable. But what do these people think happens once they die? Oh my god, it better be so much fun. And I better not have to work. I mean, and I better be able to drink every day. And it's good for my health, Sam. One last question for you, how do you humanize somebody? We kind of touched on it, but like the UK, like their brutal, right? But how do you humanize? We have so many polarizing individuals in our society now that some people love others. Hey, I have to imagine that's a tricky obit. Like, you know, how do you kind of humanize somebody that is maybe liked or not liked or do you just look at it factually? And like this is what they did and this is who they are.

24:17No, I think you're right, sir, you've got to paint the full picture of someone's life. What inspired them, what motivated them, what they did in their everyday life and how that might affected their decision making their motivations. The end result of what they accomplished or didn't the British Mapers took a lot of flack for mentioning that of some of them, like to take his children to the beach. Now, it also clearly made it obvious that he was a terrorist and was responsible for the death of thousands of people. But that fact about his personal life made the profile richer and said, hey, you know, the banality of evil, this guy was a human being like it or not. And there were certain things in his life that are interesting to note whatever effect they might have had on what he did. And I try to address this in the book that again, these are not totally stenographic looks at people.

25:22They're not the same as biographies, but they are many biographies. And that's what makes them so fascinating. They are about people's lives in all their fullness. Yeah, that was one that I actually looked forward to reading. You were not writing obits though at 9.11, were you? No, I was not, but we did do something around 9.11 that was very unique to the New York Times. We started a feature called portraits of grief of most of the people, the victims of the World Trade Center attack. And we sort of followed that in a way after the pandemic with those we've lost. And what we looked at were ordinary people. It's very interesting. Thomas Carlisle, the British historian, talked about the great man theory of history. But even he admitted, who was a greater man, Hannibal, who marched his troops over the Alps, or the anonymous character who invented the spade. I go with the spade man. And as another obiturer said, who would you miss more your mayor or your mailman?

26:33Well, there are a lot of people who take for granted, we take for granted, who might seem ordinary, but what are the things I discovered in writing obituraries for the times and for the book is that there really are no ordinary lives. Everyone is intrinsically interesting in his or her own way. Sam Roberts, are they dead yet is the book which people can pick up, you know, Amazon everywhere you purchase your books. What a fascinating career and job. And Sam, thank you for coming on the show. And I think just reminding us about living. And thank you so much for the invitation. It was a pleasure. Thanks Sam. Take care.