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1:00Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash a cast. Hi, this is Jane and this is a Friday bonus edition of OffAir. Now this week I talked to Jane Coates, who was the mother of Lucy Harrison. In January of last year, Lucy, who was a 23 year old British woman, went to Texas to visit her father and his family. She was shot in her father's home shortly before she was due to fly back home to the UK. Now in the US, no charges were brought after a grand jury declined to indict her father. The shooting was treated as an accident. Here in the UK, a coroner reached a very different conclusion, ruling that Lucy had been unlawfully killed and that her death was the result of reckless action.

2:06That stark contrast has left Lucy's family searching for answers and pushing for the case to be looked at again. Jane, thank you very much for talking to us. Can we start first of all with exactly what the legal situation is right now? The inquest that was conducted in this country did conclude that Lucy had been unlawfully killed. Now, what does that finding mean to you as a family? I think when we finally, you know, after a year and a month of, you know, since Lucy's death, when we finally heard that outcome, it was a relief in terms of Lucy's truth was finally out because for so long, you know, we'd had to follow due process and, you know, we had to allow that to happen in America and then, you know, working towards the inquest. So for us, yeah, Lucy's truth, we thought was finally out there,

3:09but for us, it still doesn't mean she's had justice because a coroner's court is not a criminal court and so there can be no real blame attached. So for us, as far as we are aware at the moment, even though it was an unlawful killing conclusion, there's no consequences for Lucy's dad. No, but what has been established is that clear difference between the finding of the UK in quest and the decision in the States. Now, how do you attempt to make sense of that contrast? I think it's just just been so confusing and very, very frustrating. You know, with Lucy being killed over in the States and the investigation was conducted under a completely, you know, separate jurisdiction than our own, we found ourselves very frustrated and very confused about the nature of the investigation and how an earth it could have been possible

4:13for there to have been no charges brought. What are you able to tell us about what happened in the home of Lucy's father that day? So she had been playing in the snow with the younger sisters, Sam, who's Lucy's partner, he had gone out there too, along with Lucy's dad, and then I think Sam had come in for a little bit and then eventually they all came in and they got themselves packed up because Lucy was Lucy and Sam were due to fly back on that day and I received a text from Lucy at two texts, 8.27 and 8.28 pm are UK time and she texted me to say she was all packed up and they were ready to come there. They're ready to come home. And within 15 minutes of that text, she had been shot,

5:19she had gone into the bedroom which was on the ground floor with her dad, Sam in his statement to the police, said that he saw Lucy's dad take Lucy by the hand and he led her into the ground floor bedroom, they were laughing and joking and within 20 seconds of them being in the room, Sam heard a bang, he heard a loud noise, he didn't know it was a gunshot and then very quickly went in and saw that Lucy was on the floor, but he wasn't aware of what happened at that moment and I think when we were in the inquest and the coloner shared all the evidence it was very clear that Lucy's dad had told his wife that the gun had gone off

6:25from when they went into the room, but it was clear from Sam's 911 call that that information hadn't been relayed to Sam for quite a number of minutes and he was very confused as to what happened. Yeah, so back I think he thought that Lucy had fainted. Yeah, that's right, she was very squeamish and she also did not like guns and that was one of the areas that the coloner explored at the inquest because Lucy's dad's evidence suggested that Lucy had, he mentioned to Lucy that he had gone and Lucy had asked to see it which prompted Lucy to ask to see it, yet evidence from myself from Sam and Ella, Lucy's best friend was quite clear that Lucy knew that he had gone and her own dog and her dog was in that household for at least a year before that date. And without being too intrusive had Lucy expressed concerns to you about

7:26her father and about his conduct. She had, yes, she was concerned, she just, she told me it was about, it was a conversation a year ago, a year before sorry in in January 2024 that we had, we often used to sit and chat about the day or you know, we're over, over a meal times that was our time to talk and it was when she came back from a visit the previous year and she'd been chatting to me about it and she just said she, you know, couldn't understand why her dad wanted to have one with him, obviously being a British citizen and never been brought up around guns, you know, that gun culture towards as British citizens is, you know, not familiar and yeah, she wasn't happy about him having a gun in the house. But he was her dad and she I think was particularly fond of her sisters wasn't she and she wanted to keep up contact with him. Yeah, definitely, you know, she, her sister, she was, myself and Lucy were a single family unit since Lucy was two and a half and yeah,

8:32the one thing that she desperately wanted was to be able to have siblings. So when her dad and Stetnon had a first, the first child, Lucy was 10 I think at the time and she was so excited about being an older sister and so yeah, that was her main driver, you know, going over to America to ensure that she could still see her sisters and have a good relationship with them. So people in Britain will really want to know what the investigation in the States was like, what happened? Um, I can say that I found out about Lucy's, Lucy's shooting approximately five to six hours after she was shot and I, um, it was actually Sam's mom that knocked on my door about two o'clock in the morning. So the Prosper Police Department had decided that the best way for me to, you know, be told this news was, was through Sam's mom, which Sam was concerned about

9:35because he just thought that they would have contacted the foreign office and the foreign office would have contacted Cheshire Conservatory, but that's not what happened and and then within an hour of, of Sam's mom, you know, being with me, I spoke to a detective and a detective had said that it was being treated as an accidental discharge. And, and from there on in, I think are complete frustration and confusion with the investigation. So the fact of, you know, they had decided this before even Lucy had had her medical examination, which so Lucy was shot on the Friday and her medical examination, you know, didn't take place until the Monday. And, you know, without even seeing her wound and seeing the, you know, the medical examination outcomes and conclusions, it was decided very, very quickly that it was an accidental discharge. Then the more we kind of found out there was, there was very, very limited information. We didn't actually

10:39get to speak to, um, a first prosecutor for the district tourney until the 14th of February. So, you know, almost five weeks after Lucy's death. And it was only there when we started to have a bit more information. And they told us that an officer, a responding officer had smelled alcohol on, um, on Lucy's dad's breath. And he then, when he was asked about whether he had been drinking initially, he said he hadn't, but he drank the previous day. And then when the officer said, well, I can smell alcohol on your breath. Um, he then changed his account and said that yes, he had been drinking since, um, well, before the girls woke up in the morning. And then it was found that he had gone to a 7-Eleven on CCTV that morning, approximately, well, approximately two hours before the shooting. And he purchased two further cartons of 500 ml, um, cartons of wine. Um,

11:40and yet he wasn't breathalyzed. And we just find that totally incredulous and then just can't understand why an earth, he wasn't breathalyzed at the scene. Um, and it's like, you know, if it accrashed his car on the way to taking Lucy and Sam to the airport and even if the window fatalities, um, you know, if alcohol was smelled on his breath by a responding officer, you know, would, would he have been breathalyzed at the scene then? Um, I feel that he would have been. Yes, I mean, this illustrates the vast cultural differences, doesn't it, between Texas and, and Cheshire? These are just very, very different worlds. And it'll be frustrating for you. And I've no doubt, to many people listening to this, that, well, you tell me, do the British authorities have any rights at all here to, to investigate this as a potential criminal act? No, so it, that was what was hugely, hugely frustrating and confusing as well because, um,

12:42when the foreign office got involved, it was, it was literally to kind of liais and facilitate with Lucy's repatriation. Um, in terms of the investigation, they said they had no jurisdiction whatsoever to investigate. And, um, and therefore, you know, the foreign office and the consular staff member over in, um, Texas, Houston, was just there to provide information, which, you know, again, we didn't feel like, well, they didn't provide timely information because it was only until we had reached out ourselves to be able to speak to the district attorney, um, to be able to get any kind of information about, you know, what, what a grand jury was because Lucy's case was, um, was referred to the grand jury. We didn't know what that was. Yeah, just to explain that I, I didn't know either, but it's a, it's a, it's a group of civilians who, who look at the facts of the case and then decide what happens next.

13:43It is, yeah, but it's, it's very much guided, um, by the prosecutor. So the prosecutor, you know, for the district attorney, looks at all the evidence, they look at the threshold, and then, um, they, you know, they support the grand jury in reaching a verdict, whether to indict or not, whether to prosecute or not. You know, my understanding is it's very much like a rubber stamp in terms of if the prosecutor feels that this is it going to get, you know, to the threshold of charging, then, you know, they, they advise the grand jury to not to indict, but the grand jury happens in secret, and we don't know exactly what evidence was presented to the grand jury. And yeah, so the foreign office, you know, so they, they said that, you know, they, they couldn't, um, they've got no jurisdiction. But I did have a, um, a meeting with the foreign office because I was really concerned about the lack of support that I felt we had. Um, and following on from that meeting, I was given, um, a lengthy letter, which, um, in, in some aspects, they did

14:48apologise and said that they should have done better. And in others, they said, you know, the only way that UK police could get involved is if it's a particularly complex case, which in the same letter, they, they actually called Lucy's case very uniquely complex. We did try and contact then on the 13th of February, while we did actually reach out to, um, a detective from the Prosper Police Department, and we raised our concerns. And then after that conversation, there was a meeting with the foreign office and the National Crime Agency, in which their information, um, was relayed back towards that, um, if we wanted to raise any further concerns, we had to go through Interpol, which you can imagine, I'm still in shock, I'm still trying to, I can't, I can't really process the fact that Lucy had, had been killed, it just didn't make any sense to me. And then telling a brave mum that I had to go through Interpol, uh, and there was no, there was no advocate for us,

15:51we didn't have any victim support, victim support wasn't given. So it was just utterly confusing and frustrating. Okay, now I'm so sorry, I mean, this is just, just a dreadful dreadful experience to even attempt to make sense of. Um, so as far as you know, and you don't answer this if you don't want to, um, Lucy's father is, he's still at home with his family and presumably still has his gun. Um, the last time I asked about, um, you know, whether or not he had a gun, it was my understanding that the gun was at the Prosper Police Department. Um, but it's also my understanding that because, you know, he wasn't charged legally, you know, within Texas, Penal Code, he is still legally able to own a gun for self-defense. So which, which again, you know, is just incredulous that the law allows somebody to still own a firearm for self-defense

16:57um, when, when somebody has been shot and killed in their home. What next for you then, Jane? Uh, and I appreciate that you are, you are doing what you're doing, um, in the spirit of your daughter and you are just determined to get justice for her. Everybody listening will understand that, but what can you do next? Um, well, we've been supported by Malauka Lempi and we are hoping to launch a campaign to raise more and more awareness of, of what's happened to Lucy. And, you know, I really thank the opportunity for you to let me come on and share, you know, with your listeners because, you know, I've been that parent where I've sat and listened to radio podcasts and, and sat, you know, on the sofa and watched buried parents on the, the sofa and you just think it never ever happens to you. Because of course, why would you ever think anything like this would happen to you? Um, but, but for me, this is my life to bear. And so, yeah, I've got to do everything

18:00that I can to try and get some kind of justice. And I don't know what that justice is going to look like. I don't know whether, you know, we can put pressure on, um, you know, whether we can put diplomatic pressure to get a case reopened over in the US. Um, but also I do want to work, you know, with the foreign office to ensure that brave families are better supported if something ever was to happen like this again, because what we received wasn't good enough. I also, um, I actually had a really emotional moment yesterday. I went online and watched um, Jess Phillips, member of parliament, um, speaking about women and girls abuse and, um, she read the names of, you know, women who had allegedly been killed by, by men over the last year, and Lucy's name was, was, was on that list. So I watched that yesterday, um, and it just felt so surreal, so surreal hearing and seeing my daughter's

19:05name being uttered in parliament. And I actually emailed Jess this morning, I wanted her to know that that mattered, you know, it really mattered to me. Um, and just, just, you know, hearing that and seeing it evokes so many emotions, pride and unease, anger and vulnerability. And she's also, you know, she very graciously emailed me back quite swiftly and said if there's anything she can do to help, to reach out to her. So yeah, I'm just, you know, going through any channel that I can that's available to me, um, using that diplomacy, um, and using, you know, social conscience. I mean, you know, we're, we're UK citizens, but you know, I've seen, I've been privy to many, many comments from the US, and there are many people, you know, in the US, and there are many, law abiding people in the US that, you know, um, you know, exercise their second amendment,

20:06their right to bear arms, and they obviously, you know, treat firearms with the utmost respect. And, you know, I know that many people are horrified by what has happened. Well, I think everyone listening will be hugely sympathetic, but also just, just really admiring your courage, Jane. Thank you very much for talking to us. Um, I really hope something happens, and thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. That is the incredibly brave Jane Codes, the mother of Lucy Harrison. And that's all from us. Have a decent couple of days, and we'll be back on more days. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another offer with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday,

21:07two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you'd listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. This episode of Off air with Jane and Fee is sponsored by Explore. Do you know what Fee? I've never been more ready to carpe that DM. I love it when you slip into Latin, which is why we've partnered with Explore Worldwide to tell you about the new micro retirement trends. I love this concept, and not just because all the cool kids are doing it. A micro retirement is designed to give you enough space to reset how you're thinking, working and living. Why wait for retirement to take

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