Sam Kazemian & Raagulan Pathy: Why Neo Banks Are Quietly Selling Themselves (Full Interview)

0:00Welcome back to Stable Up our premier weekly stablecoin show power by our friends at Frex Sam's here with us today the CEO of frex and we've got Raghu Lwampathy of cast the CEO of cast Amazing show today Neobank Supercycle tokenization Supercycle People are spending stable coins on credit cards. I'll tell you that much gentlemen great to have you Sam Good have you back in rags. Welcome to the show for the first time Good to be here. That's great to be here guys Happy Friday. Absolutely happy Friday How I mean things have gotten re-rated here in the last month or you guys seeing that reflected in Activity and business as well. We just seen it on the on the price charts on Twitter. I Mean yes, we've seen definitely a little bit of an uptick but During the last year whilst we've had a bear market. We've grown three four X anyway, so I think there is a lot of users that we have who are independent of crypto prices down I think people just thinking about crypto cards, but actually they're like stable coin cards People just trying to move money and do you know every day banking stuff and the demand for that is exploding so

1:03Yeah, I think We've we've seen the same excitement honestly Every month increased since genius. We work with a lot of both companies, but also you know web three teams but even web two and the the price excitement is obviously makes everything Even more interesting, but on on the back end on business deals and stuff like like Ragil on set I we've seen the same excitement just month over month growing regardless of the exact price Look, I think a good place to start here because it's relevant and I think stable coins naturally flow into neo banks and these stable coin cards Kind of as you alluded to rags But where I think you know, it's important to start is look Stable coins are becoming a national priority here in the US like I I read this a treaty article the other day You know, they're talking about buybacks. I'm talking about this treasury fed accord 2.0 the point is that you know they're trying to unleash liquidity and deregulate banks and

2:05In order to finance, you know, Scott pessons bills They need people to be buying these bills and it seems like stablecoin companies and issuers are Potentially going to step in and be the buyers of these short term bills and then obviously you can extrapolate this in a few different ways The meme on this show has been look. It's a national economic priority to pump crypto because when crypto goes up We issue more stables and then those stable coin issuers buy more bills That's kind of just a fun little extrapolation that we've been we've been playing around with here And so Sam maybe we could start I just want your general reaction to how deep you think this goes Have you personally gone full macro and then react? We'll kind of get into you know what the stable coin build out means for the neo bank and the stablecoin card Part of the ecosystem. Yeah, for sure. I think honestly The the main thing is we before we've always said oh as the crypto price go up more stable coins are minted That's one part of the flywheel

3:05But honestly all of the the neo banking. I've even heard the term neo brokerages now because of of Robinhoods You know big rise right where people can integrate just direct stock buys sells and and everything Into the stable coin supply going up right like what one of the things actually I think it was rob a haddock from dragonfly And and our friends there he actually said it really well He said banking is being unbundled right every part So we usually talk about the the stable coin stuff the settlement and everything before genius right banks Essentially had to participate in some capacity in the settlement process whether it was a fintech like Venmo or PayPal When you move money into your like Venmo account You're actually just wiring the the deposit your deposit into the the Venmo ink bank accounts deposits right with stable coins You don't actually have to do that right you can hold a stable coin like you guys said it's a treasury It increases the demand for short term treasuries and money market fund securities, but as more and more banking

4:07Features and and like like brokerages and other financial features get unbundled and then essentially Rebundled in different places like in in cast and fracks net in in etherify right and in all of these new Platforms you essentially have new demand for places that can hold stable coins right another places that we're seeing is the the companies that we're working with that will You know announce in in the coming quarter Is that they want to just hold a treasury of regulated stable coins for running their business for both pay-ins and pay-outs right and so that's actually really powerful To it doesn't just have to be when crypto goes up So it's really exciting and interesting to see What the features that are being unbundled are and poor the teams that are actually Rebundling them in the web 3 capacity right is it is at the stock brokerages stable coin payments All of these things and That's what I'm really interested in is how they're being rebundled with web 3 features right whether it's like earn with with like morpho abe

5:14Stock buy-in-cells and things like that Yeah, Rex Anything to add there No, I mean I What we say I mean we're a very global platform right? So we're actually pretty evenly split across the world And what we just see is that people need to it's people just discovered it's a more efficient way to move money And so they just do it. I mean I think of it from very simple terms. It's like you know the 90s you had online shopping and You know those big boom around and everyone's like everything is gonna go online and it didn't all go online And to be sort of still people go to normal shops But what you knew was that back growth was just once once I was out out of the bag Then people were gonna get shop more online and every year Like retail might go up 2% but online shopping was going up 20% You know, it's just eating away in that broader ecosystem And that's the simplest way I think about stable coins as well like they're just gonna continuously Grove eating they're gonna digitize dollars. They're gonna move from moving from banks to moving through stable coins

6:20And that's what we're there to sort of capture because the traditional fintechs and banks don't really offer stable coins within their platform so easily and a lot of people want to move money much more efficiently around the world And we're there to provide a near bank style service not just card but full stack of services so people can get that with us Because the current bank doesn't offer it Yeah, man and do you do you also agree with this framing that Sam mentioned? I think from Rob Hadek that the banking system is being unbundled and how do you reconcile So this unbundling you know and and teams that are hyper specializing on one part of that stack versus Kind of verticalizing and being the full stack neo bank neo broker j offering for your customers Yeah, I mean look, I think onshore here in the US there You know, I think the unbundling is is correct and you know, there's you know I mean to be honest, it's just so many lies here right like this everything from the g-sub to the community banks that now these like Step point only fully reserved

7:22banks All the new osc charters and it's so much innovation happening over there um, but ultimately like These are sort of larger infrastructure plays right? I mean what is really happening with the end customer They're just like all right. That's really nice, but I just want to move money I just want to store money move money pay people collect money if I'm a business Yeah, and so if you can just make that simple for me Great like that's all I want and we're kind of at that layer right so we're taking advantage of all the Infrastructure work the unbundling in the banks and all that stuff that's happening and then we're trying to wrap it into Something that's very clean and available globally not just here in the US, right? But the thing is that the inside you know with the scc yesterday and the inside I was giving them was that The world essentially Wants the bank in America and traditionally very hard to do that right? They want to have access dollars. They want to have access to your stole of bank bank accounts They want to have Like everyone in the world wants to have a bank account in America, but they can't all come to a bank community bank

8:27So stablecoins and all that infrastructure we're providing is basically a way for them to do that And there is unlimited demand for that. There's massive massive demand for that What's uh, what were you doing with the scc anything you can share? Uh, no, you can share it was just a general catch up, you know, just to With with some senior folks there. I wear mentioned the names Yeah, but um, yeah, we're pretty senior just sort of you just share perspectives on the work that we're doing and Um, you know, just a global perspective as well whilst being much more global company Um, we have very very supportive of what we see the current administration doing um because like from a very simple The standpoint I know there's Lots of domestic politics which I won't get involved with um, but from a very you know, simple point of view Um, you know opening up the US economy of the US banking system the US capital markets to the world It's something that far rest of the world wants desperately. Yeah, what access to the capital markets

9:28They want to be able to trade US stuff. They want to Be able to bank in the US. They want to be able to hold You know regulated stablecoins and so all of that you know, there's a no brain right as I say the world It's pretty much dollarized and um The US is one pretty much that the global global dollar banking token as a just capital markets one the whole thing But now, you know, the big barriers that people don't even we have access in some countries that have great access A lot of countries they don't have good access and so um, it's really encouraging. I think for the rest of world to see you guys progressing the legislation so it gets the point where you know You know, everyone gets even accessed, you know from someone down and uh, Peru through to you know country in Africa through to Asia Like even in Europe where they use euros that you know people still use dollars Yeah, yeah, I saw a chart of the genius act at time stamp and following that there's just been this explosion of

10:30You know, stablecoins treasuries um, you know, these types of funds on chain and so you know, we're coming up on the clarity We're coming up on a potential tokenization Exemption and I mean we've seen just this rise of robinhood chain as of late with regards to their tokenized assets You know sam, I'm curious from your perspective. We got Vlad on You know national TV in the morning show, which means that it's important and he's talking about exactly what rag is saying here about this global access to the US capital markets being like the biggest selling point for tokenization You know, he's taking questions from the host as to why the AMCCO hates what he's doing right why there's this divergence and where Allicators are being able to buy equities that it's not just in your brokerage account through the DTCCC DTC anymore and so you're kind of in this world where there's this pushback from tokenization But it's also just happening and I know that you need to be positioned for it Just curious kind of from the forax perspective. What is What is the tokenization of equities and more asset classes coming on chain? What does that mean like what is how do you

11:36Kind of wrap your head around this and execute on capturing some of that market Yeah, it's a good question because I think there's a lot of new emergent behavior that this stuff will actually create like you see it on robinhood chain where There's like people that are now pairing Trading against different equities. I'm actually really curious to see you know things like what if there's on chain activism Right like what if there's like douse that try to acquire a specific large amount of You know like on chain carolicon right like there's a lot of questions that'll have to be answered about that right Because like the there's different structures to tokenization. There's like the robinhood tokenized stocks are kind of like debt instruments right so robinhood is is like technically the on you know on ledger Thing is is there gonna be like a Like the first time that happens right like where a Dow has a bunch of like Assets and says like we we want to propose this There'll have to be some questions like well will robinhood be fine with representing

12:38Them as like a proxy agent or something or how is this stuff gonna work? And so you know at fracks the most important thing with uh with like our fracks that neo bank platform is to basically create this Platform where businesses whether they're web 3 web 2 or just people they can actually Have this new new bank account they can invest in equities they can Get you know credit against it save earn all of this stuff and one of the things I think that's gonna be important because of how fast paced everything will go is we're actually looking into essentially creating kind of a Frax app store so to speak on this platform where essentially other people can actually add features and hook into the KYC identity right like the accounts be able to actually offer Different kinds of like rewards or like you can have multiple cards You got to have a cast card if if you want to import it into your like fracks that account and then you know Etherify card for example, and and we don't actually you know in our ethos like try to compete in zero sum and in terms of on

13:40Layers where we don't really see Need to improve really really great products like cast or etherfire or things like that We actually want to add value in terms of being able to build on top of some of the these products like we're not Obviously going to tokenize like and video or something like that We want to give access to People accounts businesses that want to hold them and be able to do things with them compose with them Our view is how can we bring more value? How can we bring more liquidity more credit? One of the things is to allow people to actually build applications into this like new by paying for accident platforms So we're gonna announce that a little bit later How it's gonna work you can just add like different applications or features that will get added to the actual workspace Right like your your actual Platform will change and in terms of looks depending on whether you do like invoicing if you're a company Or if you are a person you have like you want to have multiple cards you want to have These things and it routes to the best rewards

14:44We're not really digging deep on Things that for example cast is really great at right like they they have really really great relationships And and wide coverage why should we reinvent that wheel right we should give people access and then super charge and and like super power Those kind of things And so that that's essentially how we're thinking about it right bringing value on top of these things and actually bringing a platform that can kind of act as the global Identity layer essentially for neo banking neo brokerages, you know, however you want to think about it. Yeah Global identity layer, which is interesting because you know that's something that we're continuing to hear like there is a lot of kind of disparate Platforms, you know, we're gonna have a DTC. We're gonna have a Robin Hood We're gonna have a theory of them. We're gonna have other brokerages Nasdaq and New York Stock Exchange or building out their alternative trading systems that will trade you know tokenized things 24 Seven but all of those are gonna need to share KYC in some way shape or form And then there's gonna be these allow lists and proper books and records of you know who's on these cap tables when these things are really tokenized equities and not just like you said debt

15:52You know equity linked instrument securities like actual tokenized equities And so Sam what I'm hearing you say is kind of like starting from that identity layer and building outwards Are you building like one cohesive product that is going to apply to all of these different facets of on chain finance or are you building Like these different hooks like these different apps that are going to be you know curated products that are going to apply to Like you'll have a different fracks product that'll look a little bit different for tokenized equities than it will for Serving neo banks like cast like are you gonna build Different products for different facets of the industry? Are you focusing on building one thing that is then going to be portable and flexible to apply to different facets of the industry? Yeah more more like the latter right basically what we're doing is Essentially all the features that you see in like fractal that like if you sign up right now There's like earn right move money. It's a similar similar things to kind of you you'll see in a lot of them

16:53There are actually going to be structured like standalone applications even though they look like features in a tab They all conform to a specific schema. They all actually use the the fraction that identity, which is like one single KYC And then eventually like if you want to add cards or things like that You just actually root the KYC that you've already done once right into the same kind of KYC that some other product is asking for right We will essentially build tons of these applications right we're not going to like wait like kind of like the old school ecosystem kind of chain kind of idea right give out a bunch of great yeah Yeah, yeah, we're we're not it's not 2022 any anymore right and and so the the idea is all of these are structured as like applications and then you can have a You know a cast application right and then it imports your transactions your things and then with that you essentially get built in Builder codes right because each of these Applications and calls underneath will have originators right like you it'll be originated from the crap cast app or the or the you know

17:58Robinhood equities app that we can build ourselves right that'll root to buying and selling Robinhood stock and so then you're able to actually create Builder codes and reward systems built in right like if you use this more then you'll get more from on the for pracks that layer if you Invest in equities during this month through during this campaign you'll get you know 2% cashbacks similar to kind of what Etherify is doing with their campaign, but as like kind of they're doing it a singular campaign in the app We'll be able to do that in a higher layer right will be able to actually incentivize different kinds of behavior Yeah, what one quick follow-up here, which is like and we've got this written down. It's a question-preparitimate I think it's a good one You know like cast fracks even revolute coin bases vet Venmo zeal like All these things seem to be converging, but we're also unbundling and so the question here is like Where are you guys all kind of are all these players in this in this general area competing for the same user

19:01To kind of hook them in and then get them in their product suite or Is there a different way to think about this and if if it's more so the former Like what is the moat? What is the moat because we hear a lot about distribution I can understand how like if you own the relationship with the un customer You're the one that does KYC on it then you're kind of like people have to go through you in order to you know Sell something to that customer But there's a lot of different ways that you know these customers can kind of get looped into a particular product And so I guess that's my question. It's like are are are all these companies in this general banking on even though we're unbundling it Is that all the companies in the space competing for the same user and if so Who owns the moat in that in that space? Hey Robbie can I ask you a question man? Are you like it please NFL fan or like what's your favorite sport? Oh favorite sport the one I like to play the most is ping pong but they don't really have professional like Super awesome. I'm gonna have to speak I would probably go probably NBA

20:05Okay, he's a manly feed fan. He's a manly feet. I love the I love the hip rope in South Florida. I like college football Miami heat fans. So what's the moat the Miami heat have on you? I grew up in the area. Yeah, but you you're not gonna like go and support somebody else. You still attached them in some way right Yeah, I grew up you know following them since I was a little kid and you know they were no easiest to access and go watch So yeah, yeah I have a thesis. I'm gonna it's gonna sound horrible the but like You point is somewhat correct. I mean, I don't think financial services have that much of a moat as long as they build like we're very focused on product Philosophy and delivering as many products So once you're on with us that you can do as many things as you can with us with the best experience We're trying to not make it clumsy like some other absolute gun. We're gonna be the everything out But there's nothing out because you do so much. It's such a horrible experience. You'd like to just stop sending me like You know betting on on the weather today I'm just trying to do my banking like services

21:08You know, yeah, yeah, I didn't mention a name man, you know, so but what I'm saying is is that Why I mentioned the sporting analogy is like our Marketing and our ethos is to build a culture around our brand and around our service and the way that we deliver it And that becomes the moat because people but you know Will go to someone and say like these guys just deliver service differently They connect with people differently. They where they deliver their platform is different their culture is different You know, with in the process of signing with a number of like celebrity partnerships as well with musicians and others We're you know unraveling a lot of experiences that people can have Special experiences. I'm here in New York this week for fashion week Because we're looking at a number of partnerships and that's the difference I think of us very similar to a sports team We want to build the best sports team like the best platform with the with the best players that the winning team But we also want people who are fans of us

22:08To essentially be like I just really only want to use this platform because I love it And I want to tell everyone else how good it is very similar to a sports team And that's the moat and the reality is is that you can go on dope you can go on supports on else the next day if you want There's nothing really stopping you but at the same time you feel Attached to a brand because you really love it, you know Because of everything that they do you know and that that ultimately becomes the moat because if you look in reality If you go and look at you forget about the fintech space or the brohage or everything you talk about Just look at your bank like most of people were attached to a single bank for a long time, right? Even though they've had the choice of a JP Morgan Bank of America or A city bank who hate to speak see you've you know probably had the choices But you end up with one and you tend to stay with one Most people do right and I think the moat is just how they make you feel as a person and you know Why you got there in the first place, you know and that's In financial services that that's the moat

23:10It's how you you know you're you're how much you resonate with that company effectively As long as the company keeps shipping all the great products and everything that you need you know that's right And so who does that really well cast or rags from the cash percent like like who can you point to that you're like damn like they've done a damn good job I think globally like obviously like this it's it's obvious why Revolute a new bank have done well to win But they regional right there in their regions like you're very dominant in Europe for for new bank very dominant Latin America sorry Very dominant in Europe for revolute and very dominant Latin America for new bank But I don't think the reason I built cast on wasn't afraid of these companies was because My thesis is that the dollar is global and people move money globally and there's a new audience of people who are global first The internet native they're building solar panels and people building business online. They work Freed lands that creators and social and you know, there wasn't like a brand

24:12Financial services brand built FinTech built for them, you know with stablecoins being able to be global you know almost from day one There's an opportunity to do that and that's essentially what we're building You know, but I think these two companies that From the digital bank perspective have shown that they've done a world. There's probably smaller Regional ones or country ones, you know, and other parts of the world who do the other great experience as well But these are probably the two largest sort of regional like your wide Latin wide ones Maybe in the US it's time or so five. I will probably know it's obviously stand out here in the US Sam do you agree? Do you agree with the brand as a motelist or do you think otherwise? How do you think of this? Well, I think from a retail perspective I think rags is right. I think that that it is it is really to do with like Brand and trust Lindy right? But from essentially just to define it right and in my opinion from coming from like a crypto mechanism design perspective right A motor like a network effect by definition means like if

25:14A million people are using it the the millionth and oneth person gets more value out of being in that like like a user or in that network Then it just being the exact same thing for for one million people right like if if the more people Are using the platform if they are all Better off right essentially and so there's either things you can maybe offer them that are better off But also if there's just a service that it doesn't matter if if there's like 10 people using it or like 50 Thousand or a million It's pretty hard to justify that there's there's a mode at least in in my opinion So when when we think about it on like for example Fraks net or like just looking at other kinds of neo banks I think the most valuable thing is Essentially the direct relationships in in the in the roots or in the businesses and things like that like we've we've signed some exclusive deals right for for things that we're going to announce In the coming months that you can't vibe code that or you can't someone else can't actually have that direct kind of

26:21Resources like that that kind of rewards that kind of exclusivity So what I actually think is on the retail perspective rags is totally right what I actually would love to ask and Kind of know from their perspective at cast is how do you guys kind of Negotiate these like cashbacks or these campaigns or these relationships on like a Large level compared with like other neo banks. I actually be curious like do you guys have direct relationships that cast with You know either either the hotels or the or the software companies the large kind of cashbacks that that you guys provide You just you know or do subsidize them or how does it have Because I don't believe that they're always the air banks are gonna survive my my Is that it's a go big or go home, you know, so I believe the cost would be a hundred billion dollar company or will fail I don't think there's any in between right and So my thesis is just foot to the floor

27:22capture as much market share as you can and You know, we try to run the lean team as efficiently as possible But you know our job is to squeeze out absolutely everyone and win You know, it's a it's a market grab situation, right? And so luckily I've got supported investors who also believe that But you know like we will accumulate losses to To get scale, you know and so when you say subsidize it's like the rewards that users are getting Sam Is that kind of what you're asking about? Yeah, like I think like First of all, I love it move fast and break things right like that that is the the name of the game But yeah, like what one thing I we can tell you is like when we announce Some of the things in in the coming Quarter or two You won't be able to get these things anywhere else other than having Like a fraction of account or like a fraction mobile app like count basically like that that is gonna be a kind of unique to us like

28:23Everyone else will have to subsidize by buying those things for example or or going through So it's like a different philosophy right? It's some of it takes a little bit longer, right others. Yeah You can go and have a lot of conversations because it's like a catch 22 right? Yeah, they're like what scale do you have? So you we just go maximum for getting scale so once you get scale Even though it's subsidizing now then you can go to have a hotel partner or you know now we're introducing airline miles Whatever and you've got a certain scale by which stuff like okay, right? If you got that scale then I'll cut you this deal not that deal Same thing with our card partner the same thing with our on my friend partner. Thank you The most important thing is to get scale right and that's what we're absolutely pushing for like how do we get maximum scale as fast as possible Because the people that have scale will have better economics and that better economics will allow them to do You know, so we can afford to lose money on certain things because we don't make money on other things right like overall We don't actually burn it on money, but like

29:25We can afford to take losses on certain things to bring people in because we can make it back another thing Or we can we know that we can add more products which Which will subsidize it in the future, right? And so um, but yeah, I think that's You know, we are negotiating with certain partners to give incentives like Disgowns and hotels and things like that But you kind of have you know once you got the scale like you'd be like hey like do you know how much we Our users spend on this one vendor we can go to them like they spend us so much already like you and by the way They also spend a lot on your competitor And so what are you give us a discount so we can offer it to them and then they'll come and spend even more on you So but that's not a conversation you can have if you've got like Five or ten-mill a month in your card, you know You've got to get into the hundreds of millions a month before and show some scale in your business You're going to get into the tens of billions of you know a year in platform scale before this becomes a relevant conversation Well, there's your answer Robbie As mode as economies of scale. Yeah

30:27The mode is sorry that that is actually very true as well for the mode does become the economies of scale There is like a flywheel that we see right Like the more users we have The more scale we have the more we can negotiate better discounts the more we can give back in incentives That brings in more users than you get the You know, matter of the world and I think that's why it's really hot like we were once that company But I think it's really we see this like proliferation of nearby and but we're seeing also a ton of them shutting down recently And every day my in but I think I would average I reckon I'm not even lying to you probably Two to five emails a day from companies asking for discussions on M&A right carrying the hands up saying hey you guys want to buy us, you know really it's frantic right now Right because we had this whole wave right like we had this whole like I mean neo banks were so hot called 18 months ago Yeah, right and it was like everyone wants to be a neo bank But it's the market quickly realized that if you don't have a regional edge if you don't have a customer acquisition edge

31:32If you don't have a Subsidy edge if you don't have a ton of cat like there's got to be an edge it wasn't just like let me make an app I mean they were going around in the VC circles like crazy It was like every it was a new neo bank on our desk every week. Yeah Well, it's not even neo banks. It's also orchestration companies There is like yeah sure narrow smaller, you know apps as well There's people who've gone in quiet licenses, but never actually built out you know, this is just I can give you every variation Like I haven't even checked where you melted. I'm sure if I opened it up like yeah, you know, you'd be all I got this type of company that But yeah, it's amazing like companies that I saw That will way more funded than us and way bigger, you know, but just Didn't get the scale, you know, yeah, what everything else they're often got licenses. They got VC attention But they just get to lift off some scale. Do you think do you think regs? There's a some critical things that separates like cast and others that did manage to get to scale in terms of like

32:35uh Tough things to know in hindsight light like for example um a lot of people say in in like neo banking and the stuff your service providers are very important right like if you're trying to for example On board, you know, 100 new users, you know per per day or something and like half of them don't you know Pass KYC because the service provider for example is very risk averse or something like that or they just have too many Um like extra fields that aren't necessarily for example, right? Are there any of these things that you guys we spend a lot of time making a onboarding as smooth as possible And I constantly I used to do this thing where I would make everyone in the company Like rip out their KYC so they have to re KYC into their cast account So that if they're so shit, then they're gonna feel that So he's making everyone like re KYC re KYC you know every few months so they're like Ah fuck until eventually our providers like you can't do this like you've got people who KYC too many times like He'd look like a board problem

33:36You know, I was like no, no, I'm just meaningfully ripping the KYC up So we just we just like care a lot about that We always try to have one minute response times for our concierge We would hire heaps of people unlimited amounts of people so it would happen So people just felt like oh, I've got a problem like someone and like now we won't always act around the one minute But you wouldn't wait hours or days and now sometimes two had problems So you know, we're in perfect company sometimes we go around for a few days But you know then Well, we just you just got to care about the customers You know, and then they we have trust you and then they will tell people that you know these guys will look after you And then that trust you know, the trust is the other mode as well to be frank. We're up either like more you can more people See you out there, you know They know that you're real company back to real people They know that they can get customer service, you know, you're gonna get looked after if there's an issue That that becomes a massive mode as well So I think like that you know that experience the user experience definitely on sign up a usage of product that follow up customer service

34:39The transparency and knowing that there's real people behind the products these things all you know start compounding over time as well, you know Well gentlemen, I think we're coming up on time. I appreciate you both Great episode. Thanks for joining the show Sam great to have you and rags pleasure to meet you as well Yeah, I know we're trying to this in person But it's been I got another pre recording really like starting at now. Okay, so I mean it's just I mean This is never ending here at the roll-up sale really appreciate both your time and Look forward to chatting soon and seeing you guys both grow. Thanks guys. Thank you. Cheers guys. Appreciate it guys