Sasha Hamdani (on ADHD)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to arm chair expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd, and I'm joined by Monica mouse. Hi

Today we have Sasha Hamdani on

Long time coming. We've been talking about ADHD ad nauseam. I think we've even maybe lost listeners over it

But we finally have brought in an expert to either correct confirm who knows just explore this topic that we are obsessed with

That's the fun thing about this show we get to talk about something that we know very little about and then get real answers

It is awesome Sasha is an MD she's a board certified psychiatrist specializing in ADHD RSD and emotional regulation

Her books include self care for people with ADHD and an upcoming book comes out in October

Look forward to when when people start serving pumpkin lot spice lattes and dressing and Halloween costumes

Too sensitive rejection resilience and the science of feeling deeply

Oh, I love this. This is a great episode. Yeah, please enjoy

Sasha Hamdani

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Is

I'm nervous to be too out there

But we had a microbiome expert on who has a probiotic that actually is real

And I've been on it for like I think two weeks

And probably not even probably like a week or something and I was in Detroit and I cheated on my diet sure

And I had gluten and sugar

And I didn't have any rash and my joints didn't hurt and I'm like

Is it fix my leaky gut and Miss all of that fast maybe

Like maybe that with that exclusionary diet. Yes, because I've been gluten for over five years because of this you have sorry

Yeah, you do. Don't you think it's the sexiest auto

Oh, it's so good like I walk around like I could feel like it's cold outside

How long have you had it or been diagnosed with it?

So I was diagnosed with psoriasis in

Bip the grade. Oh, well, okay, but it didn't affect my joints until I got out of medical school

And I was like, what is this? Why am I elderly? I did my residency in Phoenix

And it was warm and nice and I didn't really notice things and then I moved back to hand city where it was cold

I was like something is wrong with me. It was horrific

And then I was like, okay, well, let me just up Pilates or up something else that's gonna help me

My ball

Brian must need to do more. Okay, and then I went I got the full work up

And I also have horrible rashes all over my actual joints. Oh, and then they're like, well

Yeah, I have to point out we're all wearing blue

Yeah, that's really nice. And we're wearing basically the same outfit black pants and a blue top

And you also both have the most beautiful skin tone and hair tone

My god, long-lost twins

You could bridge the divide between Pakistan and India

That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing. That's what we're here to do

We'll be here. That'll be solved

But I am curious because you must experience this bit of dissonance right where you've gone to medical school

And then things are happening to you, but you're somehow not using the same criteria or it's hard to apply to yourself

What you already know, right? And also I'm a psychiatrist

So anything with the body

Okay, you're from Santa Barbara. I once lived there and what part of Santa Barbara did you live in?

Monocedo, okay, so what a mom and dad you feel guilty right?

We just had a guest who currently lives in Monocedo and he said Santa Barbara and I said Monocedo and he said yeah

Do you go to that amazing bookstore godmothers?

Do you know about it? No, what maybe it's after you're gone. I mean gone for a while. Okay

For like 18 years. Okay, so it's changed a lot

But my mom still lives there so we're and I was able to like

Come to the podcast and then we had a sleepover last night

And there's a huge ice-throwing Kansas City. My flight has already been canceled. Oh no

Okay, I guess I'll have to go be in Monocedo for a couple of days. Oh my god. Well go to godmothers

It's very very cute. How do I not where is it? It's on a really cute street

There's only that one main street a parallel to the train press state street. It's not there. It's not lily avenue

lily it's on lily thing to you. I know

Little man. I know this closest summer land beach. That doesn't count. It does not Monocedo

Okay, it is because

Because we went to lunch in Monocedo and it was like 10 minutes away or nine 10 minutes away could be carpenteria

Oh

Three blocks long. Yeah, it's so picky. We lived there. I think that's what it is

Okay, that's fine. So drive the 10 minutes. We'll see

What did mom and dad do in Santa Barbara? It's a funny story because my mom and dad got married and they were from

Pakistan my dad applies all over the US for a job

Doesn't get anywhere the first job that gave him an opening as an engineer was in

St. Barbara. He's like sweet. Yeah, so we go there. My mom's in training because she is a pediatrician

So she's still going through a residency and then I came out

And then we just kind of lived and grew up there. You didn't grow up there. No, it's a weird word text

It was weird when I got there from Detroit. I was like this is a very weird. It's a weird microphone

Please pinpoint the things that you thought were because I have my own specific so growing up there

It is this weird mix of people

That have been there for a million generations and are just trickled down and they're on level a thousand of their trust fund

Yeah, they're not really engaged. Yes, and humanity or

No concept of work or motivation to like some people in my high school currently right now

They have the same jobs that they had in high school

But they're just working until their parent dies and that they can move upstairs

Yeah, I'm delighted that we have the same observation because I got there and I started meeting

I remember this girl at a coffee shop and she was

Shooting math and she was also very interesting and pretty and I went to her house

And it was this very nice house in my seat. Oh, and there are other

Children of rich kids that were just completely neglected

There's like this whole cadre of rich and neglected kids there

That I thought was so freaky and weird. It's weird. I'm so curious. Hold your I'm 39

Okay, 39 very close-in-age. Yeah, very very close. We're the same basically the same but I am 38. I just I'm sorry

I am you've had a very similar trajectory in that you two were trying to very much hide from your culture

I

Had purple context for a while

I wanted them. I wanted them

Yes, yes, I wanted them

The irony you guys are both such babes

That you would be trying to become you're going through that in your formative years and you're already feeling othered

Yes, and so you really do whatever and when I'm saying other

From a physical like in ninth grade I show up to public school coming from private school

So I didn't really know anybody. I'm a violent context. I've had gear during the day. Oh boy. Yeah, not even nocturnal

We could have taken a fucking break for six hours. Oh, I get two periods into that school. I was like this goes

You're a survivor if you know

No, you can't you don't make it out. You don't make it out and I was like wrong

Let me deal with the palette issues and the overbite. I'll deal with it. Yeah, yeah, different times

Yeah, that's right

Okay, but you're kind of a vunderkin and you get diagnosed with ADHD at nine years old which that's the beginning of these diagnoses

Yeah, maybe the uptick in these that's early. Well, it depends where you're at probably also gender for boys

Typical age of diagnosis is between five and seven or women. Do you know what it is?

40 35 years old

Age usually they've had their own kids. They're like this is weird

They go to the doctor the kid gets diagnosed and then the mom gets diagnosed

Yeah, okay, so you do get a diagnosis and then that's immediately helpful

Yeah, in that you get medication that starts working

Yes, I'm hesitating because it's a weird story

Okay

Okay, so fourth grade I was pretty boisterous as a kid substitute teacher comes along

I create an insurrection in the classroom. I got everyone to stand up on their desk start chanting to get

And like that's horrifying. I can't imagine treating a teacher or a substitute like that ever

But I was just the person who did that within an hour of that happening the substitute

calls my teacher my teacher calls from a doctor's appointment. She calls my parents and she's like do something

And so then my parents got me my mom was a pediatrician

So I got in with a physician. I got diagnosed and I got treated

But it was so stigmatized at that time. They didn't tell me my diagnosis

And that's why I like I feel like I was diagnosed twice because it was on medication

Hugely helpful. My parents were like okay take this vitamin and I was like whoa this vitamin is

Working so much beats the shit out of Flintstones

It was so chalky and discussed

So I could sit through class. I could pay attention. I wasn't getting in trouble and school wasn't painful for me

It was never hard for me before but I was so bored. I was like I can't sit here and do this

So it became very manageable and that kind of propelled me through this stupid vitamin

And then I did well enough throughout my schooling through high school that I got into a combined

Undergraduate program. So I started medical school at 18. It's like I condensed to a six-year program

University of Missouri, Kansas City. I was like that one there

You shut up right? Yes, he did

He really he did before he went to check

Shokes in the mix here really? Yeah, his sim is in the mix right now

Okay, it's very proud of us

Yeah

So I went there and that was the first time I'd been away from my parents

That was the first time I'd been by myself

I'm like there's so much stuff and freedom and also laundry and all of this other stuff that I've never had to worry about

Because my mom would do it. I don't know how to feed myself. No

Your mom waited on you

I did my laundry starting from age like eight. Oh, okay. Okay. My mom tried could you screen make me a milkshake from the bottom of the stairs

And she would make you on now that's nowadays

Now you're thinking of the wrong story

I was making a milkshake in the basically the middle of the night

And she was like calling from her room like stop. There is a blender going and I was asleep

And she was like what are you doing?

So I was making

Sorry, I probably could yell

Amazing

She did try to instill skills and I just was uninterested in high school

I was playing sports and I was doing all this other stuff and if you had told me your laundry's not going to get done

I'd be like, okay, I'll just wear my park at a school. It's fine. I don't care about that stuff

And I still kind of don't care about that stuff

So there's a lot going on and I went from being one of the smart kids in my school to all of a sudden being quite literally the

Bottom of my class when I realized something was wrong and I brought it up to my parents is I did this

Neuro test so neuroanatomy and I stayed up really tried to focus and I was like I know this brain

Inside out. It was really interesting to me and I was visual and I was like I got this. This is so easy

Go into the test. I'm like this is amazing. I'm getting all of them

This is perfect

I'm the first one out of that test and then they had this thing where they would like post your grades with your ID number

So like the next day. I'm like showing up. I'm still looking for my ID number

And you're looking at all of these grades and you're like 90, 80, whatever and I was like there is some loser

If we got a third or two and I was like that's me

Yeah, what a disconnect. I didn't flip over. Oh, oh

You just did half of the test. I got a hundred percent. I didn't flip it over

Okay, you think the perfect. Oh, you would think I went and I was like please

This is going to break my self-esteem and I was like I'll be on the other side of the room

You can give it to me orally just read me the questions. I will tell you the answers

The guy was like you're either going to learn from this or you're not and I was like

Okay, well, I guess I'm not

So I remember telling my parents like, well, are you taking your vitamin? I was like

respectfully. I don't even know where that is

I don't know what you still thought it was a vitamin and right up college. It was a vitamin

Okay, so I have a little I have a little beef with your parents

This is an ongoing beef you also could have been told that nine years old that this notion that there's all these things

We can't tell kids is so silly. I don't understand

It was a different time though. It's a little terribly different. I mean because it's pretty young

No, no, no, even like when my brother was little which is eight years below me

ADD was if you have that you're problematic sure

But there's no reason that the child couldn't understand that they have ADHD and explain what limitations and what other things are gonna

Becoming their way so they have an expectation and some tolerance. They can understand that

I think that could have happened

But I also think I don't thought about this a ton since I'm a parent now

How would I handle that differently in that time?

It was so stigmatized there was a kid who had ADHD a couple grades above me in that

Private school and that kid got expelled for putting fireworks in a toilet

And they were like this kid is nothing

We don't know what to do with him

He can't be at school anymore and all the room parents were talking about it

I was just very highly aware of this

And then I was also the only brown kid in this sea of white children

I already felt weird

So I think my parents probably were doing at that point what they thought was the best

They were trying to intervene. They think they're protecting you. Yes

But I don't think lack of information is ever protection personally

Not wrong. They redeem themselves big because I'll tell you what they did that was correct

So after that so I'm like yeah, I don't know where my backman is

Next topic

And they're like okay heads up

Vitamin is actually ADHD medication you have ADHD. I was like no, I don't I've been medicated against my will

I feel really angry about to see yes, and so I was like let's just start over

So then I really tried to apply myself in school. I would wake up at 5 30 in the morning

I would start studying I would study for like 12 hours a day

I'd be so into it that I would get into periods where I was like I should probably go eat and I was like

No, no, I got to finish this chapter. I was just

Trashing my body to get those results and I took another exam and after my best efforts. I still got a 60 percent

Why?

Because I was so tired the day before the test and so run down that I was foggy and I couldn't think at that time

And I was like previously when I was on this vitamin. I never had those problems. I don't understand what's happening

And so then my dad was like listen

You might

Yeah, come home who cares? Let's learn about your brain

He brings me back to California and we go to library straight up old school library pulling out textbooks

Both of us were just sitting on the floor

He is reading textbooks about ADHD and he's like this sounds like you and I'm like that does sound like me

And so we learned so much and I thought it was handled in such a curious and open way

It came and my mom both were like

We wish that we had that verbiage to tell you we didn't know

And you were under our care for so long

We didn't know what a fracturing there would be when you left and you were out of that environment

So then truly I had to like scrape it and claw to get out of that hole

But eventually I tried a bunch of different medications and some of them wouldn't let me eat and some would let me sleep

There were some there were a disaster

But then it was the combination of finding a good medication and finding the right therapeutic things

And I don't think I truly figured it out until I got into

Residency so after med school I was just surrounded by psychiatrists and therapists

This is my happy place

Great because med school it was so

Hard the entirety of med school. It was like all of my attendings

I don't know whether I was already pegged as a problem

But I had an episode where there was an attending who came to my office

I didn't do very well on a test and he had been kind of rough on me the whole time

But he's like don't worry about it. You know what we're gonna do

But then we have these little cubicle offices

And he just brings like a box of them and he starts packing up my office

And he's like you can just go home you came there for a reason

Maybe you'll meet your husband here and I was like oh wow

Oh my god

So especially now as a mom of a girl

I was like if anyone spoke to my girl like that

I would be fair all in that moment. You're so embarrassed and you're so confused

Like why is someone who's supposed to be helping me through my educational steps doing this

You just don't do anything and so I just carried that yeah

And so but then I feel like residency just reversed all of that because I felt traumatized in med school

And then in residency all those pieces got rebuilt and they were like this is what you're good at

Lead with that yeah, and then we'll work on the back end

Okay, so you have become specialized in ADHD. I'm taking off my shoes. Yeah do it

You can dump the socks too whatever you want no one's ready for that. Okay. I would love to know

The historical understanding of ADHD as a condition

I'd love to start with when maybe first enters the DSM or when does it appear and what did we think it was then and how would we now define it today?

So the problem with that is it has had such an evolving course and it has had so many different names

When it was first noticed it was in 1700s

We had a patient who was extremely restless and that's what we're describing now as fidgeting or a sign of like that physical impulsivity

And then as it moved on it got the name a hyperkinetic condition

That was an interesting kind of segue because it really dialed down on the hyperactive component

Then as we progressed we didn't get into formal ADD

Territory which is not called anymore until the 80s. I believe that's when I was introduced to this concept. It was ADD

ADD yeah, and that's what I was diagnosed with initially that came

Later and then just recently in the DSM-5. I got beef with the DSM-5

Well, there's a lot of beef to be had with the DSM in general

So now what are standing diagnosis is is ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

It's broken into three subtype. So if you have ADHD

It's always called ADHD, but you can have the inattentive presentation

You can have the hyperactive presentation or you can have the combined type which is kind of like a combination of both a huge problem

Is people sometimes are like I can't have 80s soup because I'm not hyperactive

Because it's in the name right

Yeah, I don't like that. It's too wide of an umbrella. We would say maybe

It's too wide, but it's also too

Nero it focuses so so so stringently on just the focus components and it doesn't

touch at all on

Other areas of regulation because I think ADHD at its base. It's a dopamine dysregulation error

So you have dopamine dysregulation when it comes to attention

You have dopamine dysregulation when it comes to impulsivity. You have dopamine dysregulation

Sleep with appetite with emotions all of that is so huge

But we'd never really touch on it with the emotional side of things in particular if we don't change that with ADHD

This is why people are going to get misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression for a million billion years

Yeah, I guess currently though it is

Diagnosed through

Symptoms yeah, you're reporting symptoms

Yeah, if a Phil's enough criteria that we would say you have it my curiosity is

Are we approaching or do you believe we'll get to a point where there will be different diagnostic tools

DNA markers where we'll go. Oh, we see this clumping of this here. Would it be

FMRI brain scam where we would see

Something that would let us know is there going to be a day where we can read

The actual percentages of neurotransmitters and say oh you have this exact cocktail that ends up to this like

Are we approaching any kind of diagnostic tool that's not just symptom related? No

Okay, let me tell you why on all of those fronts

I think about that all the time if there was something tangible

We could grab onto and check a level of something that would be amazing

So with the levels of dopamine dopamine serotonin you can usually check those

There are a lot of things floating around with like a urine test where you pee and then they check your levels

The reason why those are

Incredibly unreliable is because sometimes

It's not truly that you don't have enough dopamine

It's just not present in the spot where you needed to be at the right time. Right. It's a dysregulation

So what happens if I come to you and I'm like, okay, I think I have it. What do you ask?

So there's a couple of other things the thing that makes a good

ADHD

Diagnostic interview is that not only are you checking for symptoms

But you are simultaneously ruling out other things and I think that's what makes it such a complicated thing to do because I have

Patients who have come in and they're like I went online for an assessment and says I definitely have it

And I'm like yeah, and I understand the thing about ADHD that I know because I have it

When you are right in the middle of trying to navigate a brain that feels so overly chaotic for you

You are willing to point yourself in any direction to fix it. Yes. That's right. You're desperate

That population is a vulnerable population because they are the people desperate to want help

So I understand why people are taking tests online. It's just not a super valid test because it's capturing you

In a very subjective manner. It's not giving good timelines. It's not ruling out any other things

So it's giving this very skewed kind of thing with ADHD when you're looking at the criteria

You're screening for both the inattentive symptoms the hyperactive symptoms and then obviously you'll get if it's combined from both those

You want to check timeline see if these symptoms presented before 12 when you're assessing for an adult

That can get tricky because if you're asking them to recall retroactive data

That's hard a lot of people don't remember and a lot of people have

spent so much time

During their childhood where their parents have masked covered up fix kind of symptomology that it's hard to assess

So that's difficult you have to really dig back to get good criteria

And then when you're asking questions like for example with the inattentiveness you're asking is it hard to stay engaged with a task

Do you feel like it's difficulty to organize things do you feel like you get

Distracted halfway through the conversation. You're asking things about focus and focus adjacent topics

But you also have to ask is this present during a depressive episode?

Is this present when there's substances involved? Did you notice this before or after you got on thyroid medication?

You're asking all of these things while you're doing a simultaneous screening for other things

So it becomes

Pretty complicated. It's so dynamic. You're doing a comprehensive medical rule out

It's confusing from a psychiatric perspective like is this bipolar? Is this ADHD? Is this depression? Is this anxiety?

Is this trauma? There are all things that overlap

Really beautifully and can mimic it

So you need to be able to kind of pull from the diagnosis what the patient is saying ask the right questions to get to where you're going

And I'll tell you a lot of people come to me a hundred percent dead said I have ADHD

And by the time we're done with the interview it's like no you didn't I mean this was trauma

This is what was causing it yeah, and so it takes someone who's been trained

To be able to discern that over a protracted period of time as well

I would imagine this isn't something you're doing in five minutes

You really need to learn quite a bit before you learn a lot and then we probably get into the other issue

Which is I'm sure it is a spectrum condition

So what do we say that 79% of these symptoms equals it or 71% or whatever you know

When is it a disorder when are you one deviation below a disorder you can still be

Suffering a lot of the symptoms before you're

Chronically in as yeah, formally or pathologically in this condition

And it doesn't mean that's irrelevant that you're just a step before it

So my great curiosity is so what are the inattentive symptoms and I also want to talk about

How it manifests differently in men and women and boys and girls to your point my hunch is the DSM was originally

Just assembled with the boy symptoms correct and so I imagine they really present differently emails and females

So how do they and what are those symptoms so with inattentive you're looking at difficulty with

Starting a task staying engaged in a task completing tasks having difficulty with disorganization

You're looking at issues with executive function the skills that are required

for

Processing and getting a goal done goal oriented behaviors done those are kind of more the inattentive

Symptomology hyperactive you're thinking more like physical and verbal impulsivity

These are the kids and adults who have difficulty staying in their chair. They're constantly fidgeting

They're blurting out things. They're

Interrupting

Also we should say Dax is looking for a diagnosis by the

Can I just tell you one second how I got interested. He must know Gabar Mate. Yeah

I'm walking him to his car and he says to me

Have you ever been

And I just went that's a weird thing for him to say and he's an expert on it

So I just went like oh, that's really interesting. He sat down and then I too my algorithm became like everyone else's

And I start seeing these different things. I interview a friend who's been diagnosed and he was a kidney tells me that ADHD

Folks have an outsize sense of justice and I want to know if that in fact is one I definitely suffer

So, you know, I'm just not oblivious to a lot of these things do sound a lot like me here's deal

I

I'm not gonna diagnose you. Yeah, I don't want you to know. I'm actually not looking for that. I don't care if I do or I don't have it

Well, you should I think that there is nothing more liberating than understanding your brain

You deserve to have a good diagnosis and to know how your brain works when I went from not knowing what was going on

And then I sat with my dad and then we actually went back to a physician

And he explained like these are the things that are going on in your brain

And this is why you might have difficulty with this. I gave myself

So much number one grace about things that I beat myself up about for years and years. Right, right

The self-flagulation which is again is I understand one of the conditions emotional regulation needs to be as part of that

For example, so my dad

asked last

Year in April of

Sorry, yeah, yeah, we found out he had lung cancer

We found out he had the spot and they were like it's annoying

But we'll get it treated whatever so we go we get it treated

He goes through the chemo he goes to the radiation

He calls me one day and he's like I just don't feel great

So I avoid a flight I go over and like you look awful. I take him to the hospital

Everyone's like no, we can't do a pet scan. It's too soon. I was like do it

We don't care if insurance doesn't cover he's something's wrong

It was at Brewer and he died 13 days later. What 13 days? Oh my god

13 days, but what I noticed

I think this is probably why I feel so passionately about the emotional regulation part is that

the colliding of

Brief and ADHD

Was so destabilizing for me. It was like my brain exploded the brain fog was so and grief

Terrific for everybody, but I think for someone with ADHD who's experiencing that emotional

Disregulation already I had no idea how I was ever going to get through coping with those big emotions

I was like this is too much for my brain. I can't parent. I can't get through a work day

And see these patients without just losing it

So when I was going through all of that and I had a really tough time with that

Because I knew I had ADHD

I mean, it was hard because I was like this is tremendous. I felt like I was completely

Broken down and starting from scratch. I was like because I know how my brain works

I need to create systems that are very low lift for me right now and find a way to rebuild that way

If I didn't have a diagnosis or an understanding of my brain like this actually makes sense to me or this is what I believe is going on

I think I would have just kept trying to do what everyone else told me to do which didn't work. Yeah

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I'll tell you after he

Past I don't drink. I don't really do anything super interesting. I was just like my brain is so loud

I wanted to be quiet right now

Yeah, it's easier for me to be quiet

And I was just like what can I do? I knew at that point

It was my emotional regulation and I was looking for a way to medicate this. Yes, you needed relief

Yeah, and I was like that isn't something that I can medicate my brain is having a really hard time with things that are really big

And so I need to find

Safety to get through these kind of moments and my husband is mom passed because of brain cancer years before

So he was really well first and supported all of us through it

He kind of saw what I needed and helped me through that moment

But I think if I didn't know about ADHD, I would have ended up in a really weird spot. Yeah. Yeah

I believe that that makes a lot of sense

Okay, now back to the male female differences in my hunch was that the original criteria is probably just addressing the boy issues

And you thought you agreed. So how did they express differently going back to like boys getting diagnosed way earlier than females

Typically boys

Present with more of the hyperactive symptomology. So they're the ones who are causing problems in the classroom

They are disruptive. They're getting up in the class. They're bothering others

Which is probably why you got diagnosed early because you were behaving like that

Yeah

Absolutely and I think about that a lot and I'm like I'm actually pretty grateful

Yeah, that presentation because it got picked up but

Girls on the other hand are mostly inattentive. They're like the daydreamers that are spacing out in class and they're doodling

So those girls are pleasures to have in class. They're not bothering anybody

They're getting passed along and then what happens is as

The external pressures rise and as they're doing harder things as they're doing more adult things like getting into relationships

They're starting families your

needs exponentially

Increase and what is demanded of you increases and you just aren't able

To cope anymore and then it feels very much like a breaking point two other reasons that people assigned female at birth

Don't get diagnosed

Number one is a hormonal part of all of this when women are going through hormonal shifts when your estrogen is dropping

Your dopamine drops also your symptoms get worse now

These women or girls who are going through their first periods or things like that their ADHD symptoms are

10 out of 10

horrible and they're going through all of these attentional issues

They're also going through emotional dysregulation because they're like what do I do my dopamine's all off?

And that's when they're like she's bitchy because of her period. Right. Oh you want your period?

Well, yeah, I saw posted viewers that was like 30%

PMS symptoms for ADHD girls versus 10% for the general pop

Significant wait, you feel at 30% more is that what you're saying? It's more common

PMDD is significantly more common in the ADHD population

It sucks because you're in a situation where you're like, okay, well my mood is already

Garbage around that time before my period, but now I can't focus and I can't do the things I want to do

And it's even harder for me to emotionally deal with it like that doesn't seem fair

So that's another huge one

And then the last one is quite literally just

I'm not trying to get political here

But it's not even political, but there's a societal difference in expectations for females

So females are expected to kind of tow the line and mask

So what is acceptable for a boy to be doing class? It's very unacceptable for a girl

So the girl now learns to hide that behavior. So then what happens is that this

High achieving very capable student or child

Goes through life

They are now getting applauded for masking their stuff

And so when at times it becomes overwhelming and they can't

People are like what's wrong with you? Why are you so emotional? What's happening?

Why are things falling apart? Why are you breaking down at work?

It feels like such a huge shift in their baseline functioning

But really they're just

Busting their ass trying to feel and look normal. Yeah

Okay, I want to ask if these things I've heard anecdotally or around the digital campfire

Are in fact people to ADHD over index in so there's a rejection

Sensitive dysphoria. Yeah, tell me about that. I would love to tell you about that

So I've become obsessed with that since my dad was sick

I mean, I was just like what's happening? Why am I so sensitive to certain things? So rejection sensitive dysphoria is the very very real

Emotional sometimes physical pain that comes from real or perceived rejection or criticism

So someone criticized you or reject you or you think that that's happening

And all of a sudden you can't stop thinking about it. You're beating yourself up about it

No one likes getting rejected. That's not it. I have told my husband

It is like someone

Sucked the air out of my lungs. It feels that significant to me rejection sensitive dysphoria

I think it's so important to recognize and to know about because it's so hard for the person who's experiencing

It's also so hard for the people around that person. Oh, yeah, the relationship toe around them. Oh my god

So when my husband and I get into fights

I'm so sensitive that if I know we're kind of beefing with each other

He'll look at me and I will just start crying and then I will chase him around the house and I'm like and another thing

And another thing is show out

Because I feel like this urgency that I have to resolve this so that this feeling goes away. This is the email right

Yes, so what we do I'm not an effective communicator when I'm in that state. I'm emotional and I'm

Angry and I'm scared and I'm sad and all of the things all at once and it's too much right in that moment

So what I do is I literally

write an email

And I draft it and I draft it and usually take three or four passes because I'm like that's not what I want to say

So already by the end of it

I've come down pretty significantly

We've regulated a bit. Yeah, because I've had this like safe place

The safety of my laptop

This is my happy place. I can write this down and I could take as many tries as they want to make it sound the way I want

Then I send it off to him and we have a whole folder of this usually I'll send him a text message and like I said you something

He'll read it and then he will think about it and process it and usually by that time

I'm like I'm gonna just go somewhere else like I also go sit in my closet or I'll go sit in the car

We're all going hang out with the kids. I don't want to be around him because I'm looking for as he's reading at what it's face is doing

And so then what he'll do is he'll respond to it

And he'll make pizza rolls

And he'll put it out and then we'll have like a fun snack and we'll talk about it and then we'll be done

And it's the best system we've ever had

I loved reading that because I guess we need jerk this exists in my relationship

And my knee jerk is we are good enough communicators and we are smart enough and we've all done enough work

That we can sit down and talk about this that's where I come from it feels like a failure that we would have to be texting

each other or emailing but then hearing you say that I was like I also must admit

It does go smoother if those couple steps happen before we confront something verbally

I'm happy to be relieved of the shame of us failing and being great at talking immediately

I don't know how people do talk immediately

Whether it's ADHD or not, I think time is kind of important

Time in giving yourself that space to regulate before you come into and like try to resolve the situation

Because otherwise this is so messed up

But I think I'm realizing now that if I come off of an argument and I want to address it right away

I want to show him how hurt I feel and how badly that hurt and it's not about resolving

Exactly

It's about wallowing and then I get angry or it matters

I mean, it's pause when I agitated it's the whole thing

Yeah

How about this inflated sense of justice or this inflated discomfort within justice

So it's not a clinical term

You see it a lot in autism as well

But it has to do with like rigidity

Being very rigid and having a set expectation in your brain

And then having it not come to fruition in the way that you planned

I think that's kind of where it stems from

And so they're looking at like a huge gamut of presentations of ADHD

So there's some people who in order to maintain their ADHD

They have become very rigid about things

They have built these structures for themselves

Where it's like this is how it has to be

Because this is how I can function

Right

That's where I can have compassion for it

You're very easily dysregulated

You somehow learn this about yourself

Whether you're conscious of it or not

And yes, the more things that you can map out and plan out

And control the less chance you'll have at dysregulation

So I'm sympathetic to it

My thing is like the airport

All my character defects come out at the airport

Because I mean as to cooperate with the TSA

To do things that I think are illogical or make no sense

I'm powerless

People are taking photos of us

I don't like that

They might be taking pictures of my kids

The big storm of things

And I do a pretty effective job of controlling my day

You know, normally

And so yes, I have learned that

Before we leave to the airport for the best outcome

I have to have that expectation

That helps me enormously to just go like

Okay, we're going to get there

And some guys going to tell you to hold your pants up

And also hold your hands over your head at the same time

Which you know is impossible

People are going to take pictures, they're curious

Get over that

But if I walk in

It'll prepare it or unprepared for what's going to happen

That's when some massive dysregulation happens pretty quickly

Yeah, we're all trying to get by

There's some brains that are just

More sensitive to these things than others

Do you ever spend any of your time or focus

Thinking about the evolutionary aspect of it

Do wonder if this would even be a quote condition

Without the incredible amount of stimulation

What do you think about that

There's been some thought about

If we're looking at ADG

Just from evolutionary perspective

And we're looking at hunters versus gathers

ADC people are the people who are going off

And they're hunting

And they're doing these things that involve risk

And adaptation and impulsivity to some degree

Not only seeking

Yeah, and they're great at that

And now we're putting that same group of people

That would thrive in that environment

In a new environment

And I don't necessarily think it is

Well, maybe it is due to all the stimulation

But I think it is just society adapts and evolves

Based on what its needs are

And the needs are

There is just a much larger neurotypical population

And so the world is built for a neurotypical

Now you're expecting this population of people

Whose brains are wired differently

To occupy space in a world that just wasn't built for them

And a really easy example of that

Is for ADG day

A lot of people have delayed melatonin onset

So their brains don't feel a normal

I feel sleepy at 10

And then I'm going to wake up at 7

There's are like I want to go to sleep at 1

And I would love to wake up at 10 am

But that's not where society runs

You've missed three hours of meetings already

Yeah

You're right, there was a lot of different outlets

For a lot of different types of brains

Before

But we have really homogenized the work experiences

You go to a box, you sit in a chair

You do this thing

There's not like

Oh yeah, why don't you go explore it over that other peak

Will we the baskets?

We're more apt to sit here and we've these baskets

You know, everyone has a bit of an outlet

Now it's like, no, no, everyone's supposed to wake up at 6

Everyone's supposed to do this and that

So you have funneling it's all into the same thing

There's going to be a lot of tension there

I think it's tough because you are expecting people

As you're growing up to function and learn skills

In an environment that's not built for them

So you're already kind of starting off at a deficit

And then you know, you hit adulthood

And they're like, okay, you've been for yourself

You haven't really had time to build good skills

Unless you've actually really dialed down

Understanding ADHD

Learn how to make accommodations for yourself

It's kind of like you're going through this environment

That you never really figured out with schooling

You never really grabbed hold of it

And then now you're an adult

And you have to figure out what to do with it

But you don't have any of those foundational skills sets

What do you think about the fact that so many people

Especially from social media and stuff are self-diagnosing

I have a problem with that

And this comes up a lot on the show

That's partly what we were so excited to have you

But I think it's a problem

That so many people are walking around saying

I have ADHD when they don't know if they have it

Or they think they have it based on what they've seen

Because for me, I'm like, well, what about the people who really have it

To me that takes away from it is something happening in your brain

In our developmental condition

Right, what are your thoughts on that

So I kind of have a hot take on that

And my hot take is that

I think self-diagnosis is actually good to a point

And the reason for that

And I'll tell you what the point is too

I think that it is incredibly valid

To have someone learn about what is happening in their brain

Find things out on social media

Or in books or in literature

Or research that looks like them

And grab hold of that

And start learning verbiage of how to describe their own internal environment

I think that's a wonderful thing

And I think that that can be a wonderful stepping stone

To accessing care

And I know that's not an accessible step for a lot of people

But that next step

I have problems with it

When it moves from self-diagnosis to the medication standpoint

That's really where I start to draw the line

Because when you start trying to treat yourself

You haven't done the exclusionary kind of thing

To figure out what else is going on

And medications of any type

They're not without risk

You're doing things that could potentially impact other things in big ways

So if you think you have ADHD

And you want to learn behavioral strategies

That help an ADHD brain

Go for it, man

My hunch, Veronica, is that your issue is much more

The person who says

I have ADHD so deal with this

Using it as an excuse

I don't think you would ever have a problem with someone going

I think I have ADHD

So while I should explore these tools

That have been shown to work really well with ADHD

Let me try them

Great, these are helping

I think your fear is probably more like

I proclaimed I'm missing

You have to lower your expectations of me now

Yeah, exactly

Obviously if someone's like

Oh, I think I have it

I'm going to do research and learn about it

And figure out how to help myself

That's amazing

That's what I would want for everyone

But that to me is not what's happening

I think people are saying

I have it

And so I'm late

And I think the reason I don't have an issue with it

Is I come from a background

Where alcoholic self-diagnosis

That is the full premise

No one can tell you're an alcoholic

You have to tell yourself you're an alcoholic

And then you have these steps

That you're disposed of

If you want to try this

And no one's declaring

I'm an alcoholic

So deal with the fact that I didn't come to work

So for me the association with the self-diagnosis

Is very positive

I think you're right

If you're using ADHD as an excuse

And if you're saying

I can't do this

And you don't have a formal diagnosis

For someone who does have ADHD

That can be extremely irritating

Yeah

And I've been guilty of that

Where people have said that

And I'm like

You don't want to slug

You can't possibly know like I do

At the end of the day

I have no way of knowing that

I have no way of knowing what's going on there

When they're failing

Yeah, you don't know

What their dysfunction is

I don't know

So I've tried to

Peel that back and figure out

And look at

Why is this bothering me so much

But using self-diagnosis

As a tool

To

Get steps to get a formal diagnosis

Or get more access to knowledge about things

And research about things

So you can learn about your internal environment

I think that there is a huge space

For lived experience of talking about that

Yeah, you're fear someone will be like

I am ADHD, I have time

Blindness

Don't ever expect me to be on time

Yeah, and that happens

And it's like

Guys, I don't want to be on time either

But I think it should be more like

I have ADHD

Yeah, I think I relate to this time blindness thing

What are the three best tools

Because I know I do have to be on time places

We all have stuff

And we have to figure out how to live in this world

You know, we're not islands

That's why I'm going to just quickly say

Neuro-typicals bullshit as well

It's the same reason the DSM is fucked up

Because it has some premise of normal

Which simply doesn't exist

There might be eight people

Who don't have something going on

There's zero people

We're all variable

And I think the neurodivergent terminology

It was like a psychological turn that came out in the 90s

And it was really this umbrella term

To talk about autism and ADHD

And all of these other things

And the neuro-typical was just kind of like a byproduct

What's the opposite of this

Yeah, DSM has problems

Yeah

Yeah

How do stimulants work?

Why is that an effective medication?

This is a weird

Area of medicine

Because it's not this cut and dried mechanism

So basically where

A majority of that deficit happens

Is that frontal lobe

So directly underneath your forehead

That's where all that executive function

Judgment processing happens

So what a stimulant does from

Just like a very rudimentary perspective

If your brain has a million different things going on

Going different times

Because of that underlying dopamine

In Europe and effort and dysregulation

So everything is just floating

Had an incredible space

You can take a stimulant

A riddle and derivative

Something in that family

And it actually works

A little bit counterintuitively

Because it slows things down

And really it's not that it's slowing things down

It just speeds everything up

To match what's going on with your brain

It like synchronizes it almost

Yeah, it is very counterintuitive

I very much feel like I would benefit

But I also know I can't be on that

Oh my god, there's so many better things

Then being on a stimulant

Yeah

Oh okay, so here's the deal

If you're trading ADHD

You could do it behaviorally

Or you could do it

Medicinally, right

And with medicine

For ADHD

They're stimulants

And they're non-stimulants

And so the stimulants are what everyone thinks of

And they're our gold standard right now

Because they work well

They work reliably

And you could tell

Pretty quickly

Is this going to work or is this not going to work

Those are things like

Adderall derivatives

Riddle and derivatives

Those are all part of that class

But for a lot of people with ADHD

Stimulants even the long-acting ones

They'll give you like a six to eight hour coverage

But ADHD exists outside of that six to eight hours

So then it's like what are we doing for the rest of that

So non-stimulants, a lot of them give you a 24 hour coverage

For the great majority

They're either fall under the category of an antidepressant

Or a blood pressure medication

Or some other class

Interesting

And you are getting additional benefits

So for those people who have ADHD

Who are also anxious

Here's a medication

It's my health with ADHD

Well, it is a blood pressure medication

There's long-acting formulations of blood pressure medications

That can help with anxiety and ADHD

Or you're doing an antidepressant

Which is going to help with depression

And anxiety and ADHD

Or you can do something long-acting

That people take for shift work disorder

So it really depends

On what you need

And what you're looking for

And what else is happening at the same time

But for a lot of people

When they're coming to the doctor

They're assuming

If I have ADHD

I need to be on a stimulant

I need to be on five ants

I need to be on Adderall

I need to be on Riddlet

And 90% of the time

That's not the direction we're starting at

Because I always tell people

We need to build skills

So we need to work on that

If that's not possible

Because your ADHD is dysregulating everything

We need to give a medication

That's going to give 24 hour coverage

As much as possible

So that you have a chance

To kind of see and build

There's some people who

Just that diagnosis

Immediately lifts them

It gives them the permission

To study and make changes

And do those things

That they don't need to be on medication

So it's not like an absolute

You have to be on medication

To treat your ADHD

But there are a lot of people

That in order to build and cement those habits

They need to be on medication

And that's also incredibly valid

It just depends on how your brain is wired

So your first book

Self-care for people with ADHD

You have over a hundred tips

It's fast-moving

It's foreign ADHD brain to read this book

Just little page long blips

I could tell you my favorite one in that book

And it's do a headstand

That's not the one that's going to work the best or anything

It's just the weirdest one

But there is something about that change

One, you're doing something weird

How I figure this out is

When I was in medical school that was studying

For organic chemistry

It was just so boring to me

I was like, I can't do this anymore

My mom would be like

Just do something to change your position

Or just do something to distract yourself

A little bit

And it was that inversion of a headstand

That's hilarious

Not necessarily the most impactful

But that's one

If you're bored in the middle of stuff

Another one

I think that is important

So the book is broken up into separate areas

And it breaks it down

In terms of emotional self-care

Physical self-care

Professional self-care

All of those other things

I think if I were to

Pick from those

Because some of that book

Is also things like giving yourself permission

To grieve if you haven't gotten a diagnosis

Because a lot of these people are coming to a diagnosis

Late in life

I'm done with the career portion of my life

I'm done with the child-roaring portion

I missed on so much

And now I'm having to grieve this diagnosis

I bet there's a feeling of

Oh man, I could of blank

Which is heartbreaking

It's hard, but you know what I tell patients

Who are in that position

Is that

This whole time

You have been building skills

You have been building structures

You have had this brain this whole time

And so now

It's what you do with it

And it's what you make of it

With this new opportunity

And so you wouldn't have built those skills

That you needed if things were different

Potentially

Another very, very important one

Is just making time for physical activity

I feel like such a hypocrite

Because I hate exercise

I think it sucks

It's so boring

And it's so hard for me to motivate myself

But it truly does make my brain work better

Let's talk about the forthcoming book

That will be out

That's called

Too sensitive

Too sensitive rejection

Resilience and the science of feeling deeply

I like this

So it's exclusively ADHD

Because it feels like this could encompass

More than just ADHD

No, it's not

Exclusively

But you know the thing about

Like we were talking my rejection

Says it was for you

Almost a hundred percent of people with ADHD

Have rejections

I feel like I have ADHD now

I have to have hypocontria

I really have all this for me yet

I know that I don't have to

I'm diagnosed

No I'm not, I'm not, I'm not

But I do have that

So the concept of rejection sensitive is for you

I started writing this book

When I was all dysregulated with my dad

It came about during that time

And I was like

This is the worst part of my ADHD

My emotional dysregulation

This is the thing that will bring me to my knees every time

If I can't focus or if I can't do things

I'll make a hack around it

Or I'll delegate

I can't delegate

So I want to take care of my emotions

And so I'm like there has to be a better way

To think about this

And learn about it

And talk about it

And I think that's why I have so much beef with the DSM

By the way

Europe changed their criteria in 2019

To include emotional dysregulation

As part of a core component

We haven't

And so I look at it like

Say your diabetes

So bad

That you started to lose your vision

Now instead of someone being like

Oh okay

Well let's fix your diabetes

They're like

No no

Okay let's just give you glasses

Let's treat anxiety and depression

Instead of treating the underlying diabetes

The underlying diabetes is ADHD

And the anxiety and the depression

And the rejection sensitivity

And the emotional dysregulation

That's what's causing the vision loss

Right

It's a symptom not the cause

It's a core part of it

It's not a separate diagnosis

And so if we don't get on top of this

What happens

And I've seen it so many times

Is that for women in particular

I'm seeing women who are

On anti-depressant number six or seven

They're coming to me

And they're like

I don't know what to do anymore

I think I have ADHD

Did you talk to someone about this?

Yes

I've talked to my doctor for years

What did they say?

First thing that they're going to hear

Is they're going to say

Well you're doing too well

There's no way you could have ADHD

The second thing they're going to hear

Is

No

It's anxiety and depression

Let's treat that first

The third thing they're going to hear

Is after there's six or seven antidepressants in

Then they're going to say

Listen

These antidepressants aren't working

Can I please look into ADHD

They're going to be like

We can't treat ADHD

Until your anxiety and depression are clear

These people aren't getting help

And it's because emotional

Disregulation is in the criteria

I haven't loved one

Who has come to this late in life

And it's so fucking impressive

Because they've done it without any help on their own

But they said to me

I finally realized

That I'm processing everything different

Than everyone else around me

And I'm realizing that these

Really

Crazed states

I am going through

Are that thing

Yeah

And it has not fixed it

But it has helped me go

Oh, that thing's happening

And no one else around you is really experiencing it

So if I pop off now at work

Or try to let everyone know

A, they don't care because they're not experiencing it

And this is without any help from anybody

Just his ability to go

Oh, that thing's happening

Is incredibly powerful

It really I feel like

Takes a lot of the heft of it away

It probably gives you a little bit more agency

The way that this book

Is set up

The first part of it is truly just the science behind

And a lot of the evolutionary perspective

And just like the history of it

How it came about

The neurobiology

What is actually happening

What areas of the brain are being triggered

That amygdala is being hyperactive

Because it's assessing threats all the time

Even though it's not appropriate

And then the second part of the book

Is how deeply do you feel

So it's actually an assessment

Where you can actually walk through

And be like

Is this me

Where do I fall

It's broken down into like

You're probably in a spot

Where emotional sensitivity isn't a huge issue

You should read this

If it applies to other people you love

So you have better understanding

Or this probably does apply to you

Maybe it's not all the time

Or

This is probably you

This is probably something that's pretty significant

But you haven't had really all that much verbiage for it

Because we don't talk about it

And then it goes into the tools you use

There's just 12 tools that you use

And then the last part of the book

Which is my favorite

A real world examples of how you get triggered

So it's a quote

And then it is what's happening in your brain

And then how you get out of that moment

So when I was researching

I was pulling from all these different psychological principles

And like what actually does work

So this is just an amalgamation of all of those principles

Together to actually help with this select thing

Yeah, I mean I can immediately think of

Several people I can't wait to buy it for

Which will be triggering

But then

Well good, I can't decide on the covers

You guys can help me with that

Oh

When you see it on your and I stand

Don't be triggered

Well Sasha, this has been a blast

You have a very popular Instagram account

That would be very fun for people to go through

Because I think a lot of stuff would feel

Quite familiar as you describe it

Oh, there was one last thing selfishly

I wanted you to talk about

And that is parenting with ADHD

What can you tell me about that

It's hard

It's hard

Parenting with ADHD is a huge expansion

Of what your needs are

Because not only are you having to manage your own brain

You're having to manage and guide little people's brains as well

Help them regulate

That's really your job

Yes

And model good behavior

And from the logistical standpoint

It feels like it's just a lot to do

My kids are in two separate classes

Which is two different class party schedules

And two different field trip schedules

And two different teachers

And end of school things

And parent teacher conferences

And that probably doesn't sound super overwhelming

But that's so hard for me to keep track of it

Which one is this?

Which one is this?

And like you have to really create good systems around that

And I think the most most vital thing

That I could tell anybody

Who is parenting with an ADHD brain

Give yourself grace

Let yourself mess up

And have a hard time

Because when I got pregnant

I had numerous Pinterest boards

Of the kind of parent I wanted to be

Like what I wanted their nursery to look like

Immediately you have this kid

You're sleep deprived

You have breast milk everywhere

This is not what you thought it was

And that goes out the window

And you're just like

This is probably going to be harder than what I thought

And one of the best things that we've done as a family

Is work through moments that are hard and difficult

Kind of together

As a team and problem solving

So there are times this literally happened two days ago

Where I was just like

This is hard for mom

Because there is so much

So when you give me a show and tell

Bag and you're like

I have to do this by tomorrow

And it's 830 at night

Right before you're going to bed

You run downstairs

And you're like

I forgot to do this

And I have to bring it in the morning

That's hard for me

And I'll do that

But this is why I snapped at that

Or this is why I don't have a hard time

And then when I tell my kids

When we have conversations like that

Like any idea is a good idea

Come up with solutions

And let's talk about it

And so they were rubs

And they're like

Well

He could have turned in his bag

You earlier today

Well, he could have figured out

What he wanted to put in there

And siblings are great at coming up

With that news for the other siblings

I know what he could have done

There's so many good ideas

But not great at figuring out

What they should have done

But boy

They can see right through the problem

And there's a sister

Yeah, I think it's just giving yourself grace

And when you mess up

Use it as a learning opportunity for everybody

I think I was so focused on hiding

Parts of myself from them

Where I'm like

What am I doing?

I don't know what their brain is going to play

Well, again, your asymmetric rejection reaction

You can feel rejected from your family

You can feel rejected

Yeah, yeah

Getting burned by my five-year-old

I feel like here we are

Okay, well, this was lovely

Cannot wait for the new book

Currently, though, you could start with

Self-care for people with ADHD

And then look for two sensitive rejection resilience

And the science of feeling deeply

I hope you come back

This was a blast

Hey!

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So we're in March which means it's a moment to celebrate women

And I want to take a second to acknowledge some incredible women in my life

My family of course

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We hope you enjoyed this episode

Unfortunately, they made some mistakes

I have to say I'm only three days into no dairy

And I'm already noticing

Oh, that's good

Well, that's good

I was saying last night I almost would rather have a runny nose all the time

You have to

Yeah, decide, I guess

So worse when you know, it's better to live in a branch

Just go, I'm just someone with the runny nose

I know

Well, then you can pick like if there's something you really want

With cheese and you just know what you're getting yourself into

Just go, okay, I'm going to cough

I'm going to cough for a day

Yeah, exactly

I'm going to blow my nose a lot

Exactly

And that's going to be that

Yeah, well, but also

Good

If you know you don't want to be coughing

If you have a big thing to do

If you have something to do on stage

If I'm going to be like talking

For a living

For a living

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Someone's got to edit around your coffee

And into a clearing

Sure, sure, that's good to know

I would never

I mean, never say never

If I had to, I guess I would

But I could never give up cheese

And it's my favorite food

It's so good

And it makes it can make something that's virtually tasteless

Like a macaroni noodle on its own

In a box of crap, macarons cheese

You're not going to eat that

You add that cheese to it

Now you've got one of nature's greatest offerings

Best, best, best

Okay, I wanted to tell you that

In a very fun way

Lincoln has now kind of joined a little bit into our Sim Talk

In so far as we were laying in bed

Couple nights ago

And she was telling a story about

A girl in class had a caterpillar on her shoulder

Okay

And apparently

There's like a season for this

And there's caterpillars all over the trees at school

And they're dripping down on people

Ooh, okay, that just made me feel gross

And then we were just talking about caterpillars

And not all of a sudden

I just had this thought

And I said

You know, Lincoln, when we die

And we wake up in like a medical room

And they go, you were in a simulation

I think one of the things they're going to say is

And by the way

You thought that there was a tiny little sleeve of mayonnaise

And that that little sleeve of mayonnaise went into a dark cloth

And came out as a butterfly

And you bought it

You don't want it at all

Oh god

That's what it is

A caterpillar is just a little tube of mayonnaise

And we have bought into the idea that that thing

Friends into a butt

Somehow goes into a dark cloth

And comes out as a butterfly

Is preposterous

When we're talking about like the bus maybe is proof of the sim

I now think the caterpillar butterfly metamorphosis

Story we've been told

Is insane

How would it go from mayonnaise to a butterfly

Well, how would a seed

This small

Turn into you

Oh, the like the embryo

Yeah, it starts as a sesame seed size

I know that's crazy

That is crazy

But I don't think his nuts is like a little tube of goo

Goes into a cloth

And is now a flying

Most beautiful colorful structure

Where's it all coming from

That mayonnaise

Don't call it that

It is

So nasty

Oh my god

So then we're having a lot of fun with what else they were going to say to us

Like you guys

He's not an octopus could swim over

An environment

And immediately become that environment

Without even looking

Their eyes are looking up at the surface of the water

And then they they just hover over some coral

And then their whole body immediately is the color of the coral

Oh camouflage

Get real

Look

Get real

Beings are very impressive

Is there anyone you want to add to this one

So right now it's like

Leading the charges like butterflies

We're going to feel so stupid that we bought into that

And then and then for us the octopi

Camouflage means it's if you watched it recently

It's in pot

Monica could it could swim over your face and it would just be your face

What are we talking about

Wait really

Yes

The camouflage

Is that what you mean

The bioluminescence or whatever the thing it's called

It's identical to whatever it's swimming over

No way

It's not an LCD tv

It is

We're telling us it is

Also tv

I mean all of it

It's all

It's

TV I'm fine with

No

A TV

This is the prehistoric globagoo

Globagoo

Well

Okay you're fine with it

I'm still I mean I just think humans is that's a bigger

To me that's a bigger leap from going from a sesame seed to you

Is bigger to me than the mayonnaise god

But at least the thing is cell dividing and it's taking on

Building blocks through nutrition to create the new cells

And you can just see the course of action

It's like it's doubling every time it divides

It's very trackable

This sesame seed

With no eye nothing

It becomes a human

Yeah

It's wild

It's wild

But again this gooey slug enters a cloth

And then it flies away

Okay

Okay yeah

You're not as perplexed by it

But I just think it's one of the

It's it's a miracle

It's one of the hardest to believe

Things that happens in nature

Yeah I mean there's some things like ladybugs

That I don't like but have grown to like a little more

Okay

What are they doing that's so startling

Really just the way they look

It's like wow

Or like same with fruits

Or like the pineapple

It's like nature made this

Nature made this pineapple

This thing with spikes and this hat on it

And and this sweeten it like

I know but I'm struggling

Okay but you're not letting me

The gap between these two organisms

If you were to like you just look at all in nature

And we didn't know that those were the same things

They'd be two of the last things you ever even put in a category

A caterpillar in a butterfly

It's like a elephant going under a cloth

And coming out as a rattlesnake

Yeah

You don't like my examples

Or not my examples

There are just things that I find like

Wild about the world

Yeah you're you're really blown away with growth

Yeah and like um the ladybug doesn't grow

It just is very

It's just how is it read with polka

It like nature made polka dots

Like perfect polka dots

That is astounding

On top like on on an on an insect

Like what that doesn't even make sense

It is crazy and then if it turned into a screwdriver at some point

Sure

You'll be like hold hold on

I just yeah I don't have that

I'm not that

I'll be wildered by metamorphosis

One animal turning into another animal

Yeah because because of the seed turning into you

Like I'm primed with that and that

Yeah my distinction is like it was one thing and now it's another

At least the seed was always a human you know

Well the butterfly was always a caterpillar at

It's just trying to tell us

That's what they want us to believe

Um yeah I mean yes

Sim the sim is crazy

Mm-hmm

It is I mean what about magic

What about magic

We're gonna feel foolish

You're gonna feel foolish because you're gonna be like

They're gonna be like no that was magic

Like those tricks that David Blended

Aren't tricks that's magic

And like you spent so much time trying to figure out

What what were the tricks since there are no tricks

Yeah I mean as you know I spent no time trying to figure it out

Because I know I can't figure it out

And I know it's not magic

Yeah but you're gonna find out it's magic

Oh we were playing uh 32 questions last night at dinner

Oh

And Delta really stumbled upon one

Now it was I would argue that she was wrong on both fronts

But one of the questions was

Is it man-made?

Oh okay

Or is it from nature

Okay

I like that

Yeah and so it wasn't man-made

We figured that out early

And then later on the line

There's not from nature

And then so I kind of bailed out of the game

So I'm like well if it's not man-made

And it's not from nature then it can't be anything

Okay

Right

There's no there's nothing that's neither of those things

Let me think

Not man-made

And not from nature

And not from nature

Did she mean like

Cotton or something

That is nature

But like I could see her think like

Well what it was was weirdly

It was both nature and man-made

Which is maybe why she didn't think it was either

An eyelash

Oh

So that's both nature and man-made

That feels like she stumbled upon a riddle

Oh

That is a good riddle

Yeah what's man-made

And man-made and

Nate from nature

And eyelash

Although she said it was neither

So yeah she meant both

But I can understand why she said neither

Is it man-made

No

At that moment she was like no no

The body made it

Nature made it

Right

And then

Is it from nature is like

No it's human-made

Sure

Sure

Well yeah

Yeah

Interesting

That's a fun game

Yeah it was

It's fun for a while

I bow out pretty early

My

My attrition for

30 questions is

Brief

Okay

Once we like

I guess what I just I lose

I lose

Hope

Again when I heard it's not man-made

And it's not from nature

Like well then

I can't continue to get

I'm doing running the fool's errand now

Oh wow

Because there's nothing that is

Not either one of those things

Okay

Okay

Yeah

Comment if you can think of something

That's neither

That's a riddle

Well it's not really a riddle

It's just a hard question

Would we say like

Thoughts

Or man-made

Well I guess it depends on how we're

How we're saying man-made

If we're saying

They can't exist without a human

Hmm

Okay

Like a wrench doesn't exist in nature

Yeah exactly

That's

But a man didn't can

So like

Guess construct thoughts

But it's more abstract than that

They didn't invent thoughts

I think it's an example of

It's both in that case

Because it is the human thought

Like what's

Is human thought man-made or nature made

Yeah

And it's both

Or neither

Or I'll play with Delta

Stay tuned for more

Armchair expert

If you dare

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Let's play

Play

There are two questions

Why don't you want to play

Okay, you have something

No, you have to do it

No

Oh, okay

Think of something

Um

Okay

I have it

Is it manmade?

Yes

Would it be sold at Walmart?

Yes

Is it smaller than a microwave?

Yes

Is it for personal hygiene?

No

Do you plug it in?

No

Okay

It's smaller than a microwave

You don't plug it in

They sell it at Walmart

Is this where you give up?

We're getting close to where I would give up

Okay

Rob, do you have any questions?

Is it food related?

No

No

Okay, so we're not eating it

It's smaller than a microwave

Is it bigger than an iPhone?

No

Wow, okay great

We just really got

So it's kind of microscopic

But they sell it

They sell it

It's smaller than an iPhone

It's not

Personal hygiene and it's not electric

Is it a pen?

No

Is it home improvement related?

No

Would it be in your living room?

Um, I would say no

Like

Would it be in your kitchen?

Not traditionally

Would it be in your bathroom?

No

Would it be in your closet?

It could be in your closet

Could be in your closet

Your nightstand?

Yeah

I'd probably put it in my nightstand

Wow

Not electric

Well, not plugged in

Is it battery powered?

I think

It's not plugged in

And

But it's

But it's not

It has an electronic

It's electronic

Is it electronic?

Yeah

Is it a vibrator?

No

We were led there

Yeah

Nightstand

Yeah

It has a battery

Smaller than an iPhone

These days you do plug in your vibrators

For a period

They're not tethered

Right

Correct

If you've got one that's tethered

I tip my hat to you

Like you need that kind of voltage

Yeah

Um

A remote

Um

No

It's not a remote

But

You're kind of in

They're in the right zone

Is

In the nightstand

Not a remote

Not a vibrator

Is electric

I mean

I don't know if it's

I don't know if it's the one

It's the one

Okay

Can be

It can be

Oh wow

Non-pitchering a nightstand drawer

I mean don't get so stuck in the nightstand

It just it could be there

Okay

And you said it is or is an electric

It can be

It can be

Batteries

Let's say it has battery

Does it tell time

Uh

Um

Is it a watch

Uh

Close

Very

Very close

And some would say it's a kind of

An apple watch

No

Like one of those fucking rings you wear

Like a

Or a health monitoring

Think a little more archaic

Stopwatch

Stopwatch

Good job