Talking Dateline: The Grudge

0:00Hi, I'm Kate Snow, NBC News anchor and host of the NBC News podcast The Drink. This month I'm sitting down with actor, writer, producer Brendan Hunt. Most of you know him as Coach Beard from Ted Lasso, but there is so much more to his story. We sit down, we talk about all of it from his bumpy upbringing to his years in improv comedy and how a Hollywood rejection opened the door to co-creating Ted Lasso. It's an open, funny conversation about perseverance, creativity, and the winding road that brought him right here. We hope you'll join us for The Drink, listen and follow wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone, I'm Blaine Alexander and today we are talking date line. I am joined by my dear friend Andrea Canning to discuss her episode The Grudge. Hi Andrea. Hey Blaine. I've seen it, you can watch the episode on peacock or listen to it in the date line podcast feed and then of course come right back here. Later on we'll have a clip from Andrea's conversation with Judge Salas four years after

1:03the original date line episode aired and that's when they catch up about grief and parenting. But first let's talk date line. Let's do it. Andrea I have to say, I mean as soon as I started watching this I just came into it blind, didn't know anything but the title. But as soon as I saw the judge I said, gosh she looks so familiar and then immediately said, I remember this case. This happened in 2020 right during kind of like the heart of COVID and it was such a huge story at the time, such a horrific situation where Judge Salas describes a wonderful weekend with her son Daniel, her husband Mark Daniel had friends staying. They had gone home and Judge Salas and Daniel were in the basement and they hear the doorbell ring and he Daniel says, I'll you know I'll go get it. He bounds up the stairs. His dad had already answered the door and it's a man dressed as a delivery driver. Only he's not a delivery driver. This is at a time as you said during COVID when people were getting a lot, we get so many

2:04now deliveries. Remember we didn't get nearly as many before COVID. Oh yeah, everything was delivery. Right everything was delivery and so I don't think they thought twice about answering the door for a delivery man as many of us may not even today think twice about it. But it was during a time of a lot of packages they opened the door and it was a man who shot Mark and shot Daniel and Esther could hear it. You know, the gunshots and she ran upstairs and it was just so incredibly heartbreaking. Her son of course, Daniel did not make it her only child and it turned out that it was a man who had been in her courtroom, who she is a federal judge. He was angry with her. Even though she had ruled in his favor, it was about the draft. He has all these issues with men's rights and he felt that women should be in the draft as well.

3:04And she had said that the case could move forward but it wasn't moving fast enough for this man. When you think of a motive like that and somebody who just... Somebody that you kind of come across in your daily life don't think much about the interaction. I mean, she has many hundreds of people come in and out of her courtroom every day. I'm sure. I remember when she said in the episode with you, I remember the case but it wasn't one that stuck out. They were thinking about more high profile cases where there could have been more anger. It just really kind of makes you think about gosh, these professions that you don't necessarily think would be dangerous can be. Can really put you in somebody's crosshairs like this. Yeah, I mean, she's a federal judge. We know that not everyone who leaves a courtroom is happy. There's a lot of anger in courtrooms, a lot of things that go on. I think this man clearly had a lot of anger about a lot of things. There was a piece that really stuck out to me where somebody told her that he hated you

4:05as soon as you were born because she was a woman and she's Hispanic. When I heard that immediately thought, okay, yes, she ruled in his favor but he was serious this woman, this minority woman that he has to go to who's in a position of power, somebody like him would have a great deal of resentment over that. Just based on what we know about him. I mean, you would think so, yeah. We're not in his head but everything we've heard and read and seen, that makes total sense. Meanwhile, when he resents is everything that I love about her. I see the other side of that that here's a woman who came from absolutely nothing. She told this incredible story about her life and all of her siblings and they had a fire and she had a single mom and no money and got herself through law school and worked her way up to federal judge. I was just struck by the fact that she was so composed. Of course, she's a judge. She's a very intelligent, highly educated woman but she was so composed and just had

5:06this strength that radiated from her when she spoke about what happened. One of the things that was striking to me is that typically when we do our stories, it's more rare than not that we have an opportunity to speak to somebody who was essentially right there when something happened, right, that heard the gunshots, didn't find out about it afterwards but heard the doorbell, heard the gunshots, heard everything, had that moment of confusion, saw her loved ones horribly lying there injured and it's just unbelievable that she was there and really described that scene. You talk about how composed she is, right? Which she is, right? She can talk about it, she can talk about how she's dealing with everything the worst moment of her entire life. But she said, she's like, Andrea, make no mistake. When I'm alone or when I'm not in front of a camera or in my courtroom, I am struggling. She said, I have done, she has done so much work to try to handle this on a day-to-day basis,

6:13reading and doing a deep dive, like a psychological deep dive, therapy, reading about grief. You almost get this sense when you're talking to her like she's okay, right? Everything's okay. You can't be okay, right? When your only child has been taken from you because of your job. Of course, one of the things that's really amazing is that she talks about forgiving Roy Den Hollander, the man who killed her son, her husband, and then killed himself and who had a hit list of others. I think that forgiveness is really important in healing for her. I think about that. You and I are both mothers. I cannot truly imagine anything worse in this life than losing your child. I just can't, I can't imagine it. I could imagine that for her to move forward, that's something she has to do in order to literally be able to live her life.

7:15One other piece in talking about her strength, something that struck me, and I'm sure we'll touch a lot of people listening to this. She had had such a hard time having Daniel in the first place. She did. She said she lost three babies before. She lost another baby afterward. I mean, in every sense, this was her miracle baby. And that's what it was. Touches a... Strikes Accord would sell many people who go through that, right? He really was her miracle child, and he was such a good child. From everything I've heard, he was in college, and his faith was really important to him, and his family. It was really important to him. His friends were really important to him. One thing I want to touch on, before we go into the investigation and the man hunt, there was a moment in there when she was talking to you, and she said something occurred to her that this could be because of her, because of her job. And it kind of speaks to this larger picture. Obviously, this is a much, this is the worst case scenario, a much more, almost dramatic outcome.

8:15But a lot of times, moms, you kind of fight with, okay, do I do this job? This very, very high profile, high power demands a lot of me job while mothering my kids. What does that look like? And so I can't imagine what that felt like for her to go through losing a child, but then realize, oh my God, could this in some way have been because of me? It's awful, right? I mean, it's just so awful. It's obviously not her fault in any way, shape or form, but you probably, I would imagine, you'd have some of that guilt. It would be hard not to. That, wow, it's because of this life that I chose that now my son is no longer here. But she told me a story about how Daniel, when she was deciding what to do, and he said, mom, take, you need to do this. Wow. And he was a little kid at the time, right? Yeah, so she was old. She had his blessing, that she needed to do this. And I say to my kids, sometimes if they're ever complaining, if I'm on the road or I say, do you want me to leave my job or do you want me to not do this job anymore?

9:17And every single time, it's, keep doing your job. Yeah. It's never, it's never, no, you should quit. It's, no, you should keep doing it. Absolutely. I had to come up with a way, once my oldest daughter got old enough to realize, like, I'm mommy's leaving, a way to kind of explain to her what I was doing, right? So we bought, there's this Daniel Tiger book that says, grown-ups come back. So I, you know, I've read that to her. It's so cute. It's so cute. There's like a little song that goes with it. But, and I leave them little mommy notes, like notes to read at bedtime. But I, but I do say to my girls, like, mommy helps people, mommy helps tell people stories, right? Mommy helps people understand what's going on in the world, like those types of things. And, you know, and certainly for Judge Salis, I mean, there is a tremendous sense of purpose to what she's doing. And I think that kids, pick that up. I think that kids can really feel that even from a young age. Yeah. And I think that's a very, very, very important thing to do with you. And I mean, you know, when you rise to the level of a federal judge, I mean, that is, that is an extremely important role.

10:19Yes. And you are, you know, you are serving your country. It's a very large purpose. And when she enjoys greatly and made that decision after Daniel died to go back to that role and on a later note, she was the presiding judge on the, the Theresa and Joe Judice case from the Real Housewives of New Jersey. Remember when they, you know, as soon as I saw that in your story, I was like, this would go an age-reist story because I, you love housewives. We love housewives, of course. But yes, we all remember that case. If you watch the housewives, we all know very well. And when I saw that, I said, oh, wow. That's an incredibly small world that she would be the judge providing. Right. Residing over that case. That we all know. I know. And it all started, I remember when I started watching Real Housewives of New Jersey and, you know, Theresa was, you know, she's the table flipper. Oh, yeah. Because who could forget that at the Christening? But she's waving around, you know, the big wads, the cash and the furniture store and I

11:20was like, oh boy. And the shirt. Right. And yeah. And Joe was, you know, they both served time, Theresa and Joe. And that was at, you know, Judge Salis made that decision, that call. Oh my gosh. How struck. Like we said, hundreds of people come through a court room. You never know who's going to come through your courtroom. Yeah. Including one of the Real Housewives and her husband. Going back to the early days of that investigation, investigators had to consider whether there were three people being targeted, right? Like the judge, her husband, possibly, maybe Daniel. They had to go down so many different rabbit holes, like talking to Daniel's friends, trying to figure out everything. And also Mark, her husband was a defense attorney. You know, he could have a client that was disgruntled. You know, you just don't know. I think the prevailing thought was that it was Judge Salis, but they don't know, of course. Of course. I want to ask, I want to ask about Mark, her husband. How is he doing now? Mark survived. He had a number of surgeries at the time of our show.

12:23There was some consideration that he might do an interview. But then it was decided he just wasn't doing well enough. But they are still together. Something like this could tear a couple apart. From what I understand, they have just an incredible relationship that this has brought them closer together. It's truly miraculous. It really is. So I mean, they're exhausting every lead they can. They have nothing, essentially. And then comes this phone call from California. When we come back, we've got an extra clip of Judge Salis reflecting on parenting and grief years after losing her son. Hey, guys, Willie Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with crossover country superstar Megan Moroni at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn to talk about her number one album, her sold out arena tour and her rapid rise to the top of the music world.

13:24We're working to get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts. Over the years, I've met people whose lives were changed forever in a single moment in my new podcast before and after. I explore what happens after that decisive moment. Personal, powerful conversations with Colin Kaepernick, Jeremy Renner, Gabby Giffords, and others. Join me wherever you get your podcasts. Before and after with Lester Holt premieres Monday, September 14th, follow now to listen completely free or subscribe to Dateline Premium to unlock new episodes early. The midterms are just around the corner and it's safe to say there's been a lot of noise about the election. Well, now it's time to lock in. What's really on the ballot this November and what's really its stake? We'll get you up to speed on all of it. I'm NBC News chief White House correspondent Garrett Hake and every Saturday from now to election day, I'm hosting Here's the Scoop election edition. We'll talk to some of the smartest voices about the top issues that are going to define

14:26this election. From President Trump's influence to the war with Iran, to affordability and AI in politics, we're diving into all of it and what it could all mean for the direction of the country. Join me every Saturday. Just search Here's the Scoop wherever you listen and follow now. This was really one of those all hands on deck type of investigations because I mean just the scene itself, it's chaos, right? But I couldn't imagine that it just really put a lot of fear into the legal community as a whole. When you talk about somebody in her position, she's targeted, nobody knows why and the guy is still out there. I'm sure most of the community probably believed quickly that this shooting was due to the judges' job. I think that's probably what most people would surmise. So law enforcement immediately had to really think about who did this. Could there be other targets?

15:28Is this because of a case? Is someone else next? They did end up finding Den Hollander with a hit list. There were other people on that list. And of course they discovered that he had killed the lawyer in California, Mark Angelucci. Let's talk about Mark Angelucci. A men's rights activist. I have to admit I never heard of such before watching this episode. Tell me about that. It's men who feel that they're not properly represented in the court system, among other things. But they feel that there is this injustice toward men when it comes to, say, custody of children in a divorce, things like that, the draft, as we discussed. I have to ask Andrea what was it like? It was interesting that you inserted that the SPLC, Southern Poverty Law Center classified them. I don't remember the exact words, but basically as a group that didn't like women.

16:29That's the problem. You could say that there's a bunch of women haters in there. I think there are certainly some. Then I think some people are really just trying to make sure that men are properly represented in custody cases and that they're being treated fairly. I don't think we can use a broad brush that all these men are bad or anything like that. I don't think it's quite that black and white. Of course. I have to ask about a little behind the scenes. Looking into, you talked to Mark Angelucci's friends who are also leaders, members, and leaders in this group. Those have potentially been really interesting interviews to walk into. To put it lightly. What were those interviews like speaking with people who are leaders of this men's rights group? It is a really fine line because you're trying to figure out where they fall. We talked about not having the broad brush. Where do they fall on the spectrum?

17:29Of course. I'm glad that you had those interviews. For me, just seeing their interactions with you, seeing that they're respectful. You are saying, hey, people say that your women haters group. What do you say to that essentially? Getting him to kind of explain, I'm glad that you did. You pressed them a little bit and we listened to people. You mentioned Royden Hollander. I think one of the most shocking parts to be was to find out that this man had been on TV, on National TV. He was on Colbert Report. He was on TV. I mean, talking, espousing his views, that was wild to me. I mean, it was so silly. The Colbert one was kind of making fun of him. That was about what was at ladies night that they got cheaper or free admission. Yes. He was saying that was an unfair thing. I mean, oh my gosh. Please, there are bigger things in the world to worry about than that. Really? Yes. So many. Larger things. But it was just interesting to see that, I mean, that he was in a more serious setting too,

18:32talking about some of the lawsuits that he filed and some of the cases that he'd done, actually speaking like on a news program. That almost gave me chills. Like there's this, that he was just out there. He was unwell. Yeah. He was obviously, it seems like everything triggered him involving women. And he's probably rolling in his grave right now, the fact that two women are opining about him right now. Exactly. His problems. Yeah, he had big problems. Big problems, Roy Den Hollander. Absolutely. I want to ask about this notion of justice because that's always something that, when we speak with families, we ask what does justice look like? What are they hoping to see? It's not often. It's really not often in our date-line cases that we have somebody who dies by suicide before ever going to trial, right? It happens, of course, but not often. I wonder how that sits with the judge. Of course, she's forgiven him now, but I just wonder how that sits with those who are left behind and who loved the victims in this case.

19:35Yeah, I know. It's always tricky when, you know, it's kind of like death row too, right? Someone has executed and they're gone. At least they probably went through a trial or something, but I've always wondered about that. Does it make things easier if the person's just gone? You know, and then you don't have to think about them sitting in a prison cell that they're alive, that they're out there, that, you know, in some ways, could it be better if they're gone or is that bad that they didn't face their crimes? I mean, so many families say that preparing for a trial is emotionally heavy, right? Because you have to relive so much again. You have to listen to testimony. Yes, and the waiting and the delays and the hearings and all of those types of things. But at the end of the day, I mean, people do talk about the fact that at a trial, things come out, right? And maybe if you had burning questions or something, something comes out and kind of helps, give some understanding or at least some facts or something that they've been searching for.

20:36So I could certainly see it going both ways though, a trial is difficult. It's like there are sort of maybe benefits to both if someone's, someone who is, is carried out this horrific act to a one of your family members or your friends like that they're just gone. And then there's, well, I want to see them, I want to see them pay. Exactly. It's, there's nothing easy about any of it. I mean, I think that that goes back to our true hero and all of this, the person who just watching this hour, Andrea, Judge Salis will stay with me. Like in my mind, just thinking about her knowing her, I just felt for her so much and was inspired by her strength. So I could imagine that you sitting down with her, talking to her, I mean, there's always a rapport that comes when you sit down and speak with somebody. But I understand that you guys talk to me about just your interactions with her and the bond that you all formed by talking about. Yeah, I mean, that was like one of the most powerful interviews I've ever done for sure. And then I got to talk to her again for after the verdict or other, you know, our other

21:36wonderful date line podcast franchise. I always enjoy talking to her. She's just so wise and she has a special woman, truly. And groundbreaking. I mean, you talk about that in the story, but like the first Latina to serve as a federal judge in New Jersey, she was appointed back in 2011 by President Obama. And you gave her something, right? Didn't you? Yeah, I was like, I was, I had this like thing for my mom and my wallet that said I'm always with you and I had an angel on it. And I, I just like felt compelled to give it to her after the interview. And so she, now she carries it around. Oh, that's beautiful. I know that touched her so much. Yeah, she's just like, you know, I've never done anything like that before. I don't know. It was just something about her that, you know, I felt like here, here have something. I have that. I know. But what a beautiful connection the two of you have now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's, I, if she's listening, I'd love to get together with her and, you know, see her

22:37again. Of course. She also, you know, she, we talked Blaine about how people turn these horrible tragedies into advocacy, something that they can do to help others. And she has done that. She's been really on the forefront of protecting judges and their personal information. That has been like a big cause of her, of hers, you know, to make sure that another, this doesn't have a new, another judge because it has happened to other judges. And so she really has, has worked to make sure that that information, that personal information doesn't get out because it was so easy for Den Hollander to find it. And so that, that has been a big mission of hers. And then also she has started a food pantries. It's called a Danny's pantry. And so of course it was, you know, it created an in memory of her son, Danny. So it started in 2024 inside the federal courthouse in Newark.

23:42Wow. And that is where she serves as a US district judge. That was around the fourth anniversary of Danny's murder. And then they, there are now six Danny's pantries locations in each of New Jersey's three federal courthouses. Wow. Yeah. And these are food pantries that anybody can go to if they need to to get. If they need, if they need help. And there's also one at the, there's in Union City Cincinnati. And there's actually one in Hawaii. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, it's for families for people in, you know, or people in need. Absolutely. Well, you spoke about the second conversation that you had with Judge Solis. Let's listen to a little bit of that. It was for our Dateline podcast after the verdict. And here's some of that conversation. I remember not just me, but my crew, my producer, you know, we, you left that interview and we're all just like, whoa, you know, we need to focus on like what matters.

24:46Not the stupid things, right? Because we're all one tragedy away from going, why did I care about that? There's so many moments now in retrospect that I wish I could have the wisdom that I have now. And when I was pushing him about grades and, you know, there was a little bit of that ego that I needed Daniel to, you know, I needed him to perform and I needed him to do certain things. And all of that means nothing when we're talking about loving our children for who they are, the beauty that they are. I think as parents, we put so much pressure on ourselves and our children and we're not in the present moment with them, you know, we're not really enjoying them. And I think that if we just learn to sort of slow down and enjoy the moment for what it is, not for what we expect it to be or want it to be, but for what it is. Yeah. We would enjoy each other and our comp and this world so much more. Oh gosh, I'm almost choked up listening to that.

25:49I know. Beautiful reminder. What an unnecessary reminder, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Because I think so many of us are moving so fast in world, especially if you're working and doing the things that it can be, you can forget that. You can forget that sometimes to focus on that. I get frazzled and then I'll, you know, be short with one of my kids or something or, you know, they're interrupting me while I'm, and then, but I always make sure that I go find them afterwards and say, hey, you know what, I'm sorry. And I shouldn't have, you know, gotten short with you or whatever and please forgive me. Was a stressful moment, you know, of course. Of course. They're like, okay. Of course, of course. Oh, but that's beautiful. I love that sentiment. And I'm glad that we shared that because I'm sure somebody listening needed that reminder too. I mean, I have to say that I'm impressed all the time with the people we interview and that we get to talk to, but she's like just wow, this woman is truly one of the most inspirational women that I've ever interviewed. And I remember leaving that interview, just feeling like, you know, you need to just cherish

26:56every single moment you have with your children. That's, that's what, I think we all, the whole team that was there from day line, just kind of we were all like, oh my gosh. You know, we worry about silly things when we should be focused on, you know, the important stuff and what matters and what matters. Yeah, yeah, that's an important reminder. And coming up next, we're going to answer some of your questions from social media. I haven't seen my son since 2012. This is Deborah Ties. The disappearance of her son, Austin, is one of the biggest missing person cases in the world. What do you want from me? I should sell the mystery. I know that my son is somewhere alive. Listen to Where is Austin Ties from MPR's embedded and BBC Radio 4 on the MPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author, Patre Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let

27:57them know they had died by suicide. Dear honey's, this is goodbye. By the time you get to shalliter both Petra and I will be dead. Just stop Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to deathwin artist wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back. And Andrea, as you might expect, there are plenty of comments, plenty of questions about your episode on social media. So let's go to some of those if we can. Okay, so Andrea, here's a question from At Live in Torrey, who says why were there no security cameras at their front door and around their house? I mean, I guess the question is, do we know if there were security cameras around the house or in the neighborhood that possibly helped? We go back to this is COVID. Everyone's getting deliveries all the time. And so I don't think that there was a, even if they had cameras, I think they still would

28:59have answered the door. You know, because that's what people do, right? They, I'd say a delivery man at the door and the answer of the door. I actually don't let my children answer the door for delivery people. Same. I say, just leave it. And you don't, you don't even need to go to the door. Just, or call me if the person is not going away. And they absolutely, you know, they need more information or something. But I think that's a good lesson as we, you know, continue down this delivery. Road half road. Yes. I think it's to be careful. Yeah, absolutely. We kind of do this unless we're expecting somebody, like, you know, like, Grandma's coming over. Somebody specific is coming over and then like don't answer the door. Goes for notes. Yeah. And I think the other piece of it too is that yes, this person dressed up as a delivery person. And during those days in COVID, I remember packages would come and I'd forget what I ordered. Like there was just so much stuff just coming to the house because you needed whatever

29:59it was. And so, yeah, it's so easy to let your guard down, especially during that time. Yeah. And you're not thinking it's just, you know, it's summer. It's they've just had a really fun weekend. It's, you know, that wasn't the mindset. Of course. Oh, wow, there's, you know, there's a killer at the door. Like, no, they didn't, they clearly did not think that. Of course. Well, here's one from Lori Diane Pietro Antonio. I hope I'm saying that right. And Lori says, I have never commented one way or another on a date line story. But I've watched thousands, in fact, and this one stuck with me. She writes, your honor, you're one of, by far, the classiest, most humble and genuine people I've seen in years. God bless you for not letting this define you and for having the ability to forgive. We can all take a page from your story and do better. Thank you for sharing. Oh, I love that. It's so true. Yeah. Really glad she wrote that. Beautiful. Here's another one from Lynette Tanker's Lightin. I hope I'm saying that one right. And she writes, listen to this woman's words and try doing what she says.

31:00Surround yourself with people you love and trust. People who are willing to listen and support you through the pain and suffering, losing loved ones is so hard, sending you a hug. And I mean, we've talked about this, but just the bond that the judge and her husband had, this is an unimaginable loss. Yeah. And it seems that that bond really just strengthened through this. It really did. And I think she just saw such an outpouring of love on a larger, even larger scale, you know, from her colleagues, from the country, from just everybody who was heart just broke for Judge Salis. Well, this was a beautiful episode. It's, I mean, I agree with our viewer who wrote in, this will stay with me for a long time. That was a really just a beautiful interview. I'm so glad that she spoke because we never know, right? I know. I'm so glad that she did it. And then we love, we love Judge Salis. Yes. Well, thank you, Andrew. I love this episode. And I love talking date line with you. Thank you. Thanks, Blaine. And that is it for talking date line this week.

32:02Thank you so much for joining us and for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories, you can always DM us your audio or your video questions on social media at date line NBC. Or you can leave us a voicemail. The number is 212, 413, 5252 for a chance to be featured right here on the podcast. And of course, you can watch the video version of talking date line on peacock or YouTube or subscribe to the NBC News app. Also, if you want to check out our bonus podcast series after the verdict where we revisit date line cases and catch up with people we've met like Judge Salis, that's available for date line premium subscribers. And while you're at it, check out Lester Holt's brand new podcast series before and after. In each episode, Lester will bring you a deeply personal conversation with someone whose life was transformed in an instant and explore what it takes to endure the unimaginable. The first episode drops next Monday wherever you get your podcasts, but is available now for subscribers. See you Fridays on date line NBC.

33:10This fall on NBC, the premiere of Line of Fire, a thrilling new crime drama. The world sees us as heroes, but they don't know what the job really costs. One family of federal agents. It's one thing to put yourself in danger. It's different when it's your family. Balance is duty to their country. Massassum is still out there. Stop! And each other. How do you protect the world and the people you love at the same time? In any case, it's home online of Fire, premiering Monday, September 21st on NBC.