The After Show: Deep Dive: Gypsy-Rose Blanchard and Dr. Deceit

0:00This is the way. Hi, I'm John Favreau. We are launching the all-new Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu official podcast. I'm sorry, I can't focus at the moment. We're going behind the scenes, with the cast and crew sharing stories from the set, creative insights, and a few surprises from across the galaxy. I think he's earned a little snack. Watch and listen to Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu official podcast, now streaming on Disney Plus or wherever you get your podcasts, and catch Star Wars, the Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney Plus, terms apply. Hi there, everybody. Deborah Roberts here and welcome to 2020, the After Show. We so appreciate you all tuning in to us. And many times we talk about the stories that we just reported on, and sometimes we talk about the foundation of the stories that we report on. And many times we report on cases on 2020 where medical issues have been at the core of the stories. So today we thought we would bring in our ABC Medical Correspondent, Dr. Daryl Sutton.

1:00Good afternoon. Hello. Good to see you, and I thought it would be interesting to talk to you about some of these stories. We haven't had the opportunity to have you on the program yet, which we will rectify. Okay. Because we have many stories that have, you know, some kind of a medical connection to it. But first of all, welcome. Great to have you here. You report on all platforms here at ABC. You've been here with us for, is it five years? Five years started as an intern close to 10 years ago, which is so funny. I know. It feels like it moves so rapidly. Rapidly. And it is exciting. I think that's a testament to the work that we do here. Well, well, it is very much a testament to the work that you do because you're so passionate about medicine. Talk to us first a little bit about why medicine just matters so much to you because you talk about all topics on, you know, Good Morning America and a lot of the other programs that folks see you on. So the reason why I do all of this, the center of it is public health. Public health is why I do emergency medicine. Public health is why I communicate on air with everyone here at ABC News. And whether that's at the bedside or whether that's behind a camera, I'm trying to make

2:03sure that patients understand what's going on. And I think it's so crucial to healthcare because without understanding that patient is less likely to follow up, less likely to be compliant with the plan, and less likely to even understand what's going on. Therefore, they have worse outcomes. And I think it's so important when I'm in the emergency room, I can see where the system fails. And patients don't have insurance when they don't have coverage, when they're misinformed. And I treat communication on air as a form of medicine. And I really do believe that it is, it is a wonderful aspect of my life because I can, I can share that communication, share that medicine. And my hope is that it prevents people from needing an emergency medicine physician in real life. And which is why we value having somebody as sound and practical and experienced as you are. But when you're in the emergency room and you spend a lot of time there, you have people come into the emergency room and you have to be a detective to find out whether there could be something that is untwored there, don't you? Very much so, even just with the basics of a diagnosis, there are stories that people will tell, there are sometimes stories that people can't tell, and you have to judge that

3:07by body language, by understanding those clues in the story, and being a receptive form or being a partner in communication so that that person feels comfortable. I think a lot of that relies on that trust, which is so crucial, so important. And we talk about it all the time, but in the emergency room, it is like our death. Without that trust, there's often a missing information that can lead to the wrong diagnosis, the wrong treatment, and a poor outcome for the patient. So I think, yes, it is very much a lot of detective work and working with my team in the emergency room that includes nurses and all the other providers, social workers, and everyone else who's involved in patient care. We communicate behind the scenes in our call rooms and we really try to break down what brought this patient in and how best can we get them out of the hospital and keep them out as healthy as possible. When we report on 2020 on true crime, there are a lot of witnesses, people who have experienced trauma, and then sometimes sexual assault survivors who wind up talking to us about their stories. And it is really just not only just something to behold when people are able to be strong

4:12enough to talk with us about what has happened, but you can't underestimate the trauma that people have gone through. You work in New York City, you see a lot of crime, I guess, the people who have been involved in crimes, and also trauma. And you know, you've got to sort of sort through that too. And while it may not necessarily be part of an investigation, as a doctor, you're caught up in these pivotal moments too, right, that could actually involve some criminal activity. Yeah, justice and clinical medicine kind of meet each other in the emergency room. You know, we're treating patients of abuse, patients of assault, patients of neglect, and so I think it's so important to respect that. And many times, no one asks to come into an emergency room. No one wakes up in the morning and goes, oh, today's a great day to come into the ER, and I think I have to respect that when I'm talking to people that many times, this is the scariest part of their life. If not, probably the scariest part of their day, if not their mom, if not their life. So I want to make sure that I respect that and I understand what that might feel like. Even though I'm sitting in the emergency room day after day, you kind of get used to it. And I think it's so important to take a step back and say, wait a minute, this is new

5:16to everyone who's coming in this is real life. This is real life. And you know, that's at the basis, I think of our reporting too. We have to remember while there are cases and stories, these are real people. And that's something that we hold very dear here at 2020. Well, let's talk about some of the stories that we've covered in your fan, and I'm glad to know that. When you see these stories that we cover of doctors who have either misrepresented themselves, taken advantage of patients, violated patients, sometimes maybe you've taken advantage of their medical background to poison someone, to hurt someone, tell me your reaction, because I'm sure you're looking at it on two levels. You know, the fact that somebody was able to get away with something, but also that maybe an unwitting, you know, person, you know, was not aware of what was happening. How do you react when you're seeing these stories that we bring to life? When I'm watching the stories, I'm paying close attention to what are the red flags. When you're talking to a physician, what are the red flags that you're thinking about? Are they credentialed? Are they qualified? Are they trained?

6:16And then I'm paying attention to that relationship between the provider and the patient. And I often have a deep sigh because when I see that that trust is violated, it doesn't just hurt that relationship. It hurts all relationships. Many people who are witnessing and understanding everyone else's story, when they tell you a story about when trust was lost between a doctor and their patient, that not only affects you, obviously, but then patients go and have a difficult time with their providers. So I always think to myself, how can we make sure that we not only rebound on that trust by being transparent and making sure that we're understanding how to hold people accountable and realizing that in medicine, you can still lift a lot of time. And there are still human processes that cause harm. And we have to realize that and call it out when we see it. Because that's your hypocritical, right? Absolutely. No harm. Absolutely. Well, there's so much more for us to talk about. So don't go anywhere and don't you go anywhere because when we come back, we're going to have Dr. Sutton talk about some of the horrifying cases that we've covered and when medications and medicine get into the wrong hands and how lethal that can be.

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9:22Head to Chime.com slash 20 spelled out TWE. Sign up now, it only takes a few minutes. Chime.com slash 20. Chime is a FinTech, not a bank, banking services, and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required, terms and limits apply. Go to Chime.com slash disclosures for details. Welcome back to 2020, the After Show. I have the pleasure of sitting here today with our fabulous in-house Dr. Darian Sutton. Talking about some of the stories that we have covered on 2020, and one of the most memorable cases was one that involved Dean Fiello. Fiello was featured in one of our 2020 stories called Dr. DeSete, and it was when people were really captivated by. He ran a skincare clinic in New York City, and he was handsome, charismatic. He catered to high-end clients. Nobody would have expected anything amidst his dermatology office, except one small detail.

10:23He didn't have a medical license. It was just mind-boggling that he could get away with that for so long, not having a medical license. I mean, that had to be infuriating to you. Absolutely. When you look at it, like I said, you're looking at those red flags. You're trying to understand, from my perspective at least, if I'm a patient in a situation, I'm curious, where are your credentials at? Where did you go to medical school? This is not me trying to puff up my chest, but really, I'm just trying to make sure that your training is valid. I know too well how easy it is to pose as a physician, and many people, if you know how to say the right things, would unfortunately be drawn away from clinical medicine and be drawn away from safety. That is how these situations happen. I'm always hopeful that people can take away from this, how you ask questions about qualifications and check board status, and check verifications and licenses, and understanding that most of which are public. Making sure that you're doing your due diligence before you participate. But for them to perform procedures and things like that, it's terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. This is an example, this specific case.

11:24It's really an example of how something that seemingly benign, like lidocaine, which is a numbing medication that I use probably every single day, can become an emergency and a crisis. It's also a reminder about how as a physician, you're not just trained in how to do the procedure. You're also trained in how to respond and understand the risks and the complications. That is a key part of training that I spend so much time doing in my life. In this episode, it was a tragedy. One of his patients named Maria Cruz, who was 35 at the time, died after a botched procedure. She had immigrated to the United States from the Philippines. She was, by all accounts, a successful woman. She suffered from cardiotoxicity after he performed a laser treatment on her. You mentioned lidocaine. He was using too much. Lidocaine factored into another story that I covered sometime years ago as well. Talked to us a little bit about what it is because as you said, it came across as fairly something fairly harmless, but this woman wound up dying. It is fairly harmless when you're using it appropriately.

12:25And so lidocaine is a medication that we use to help numb patients to help make procedures more comfortable. And the way that it works is it blocks nerves and it numbs the face. But if there's too much of it because it's weight-based, meaning that if you give a patient too much, it can numb the heart and lead to dangerous arrhythmias or abnormal heart rhythms that can lead to sudden death. And that is how something that is benign as lidocaine, which you use for small procedures most often, for example, I'm using them to stitch up people's wounds or lacerations. And how if you're injecting it in the inappropriate place or if you're using too much of it, you can lead yourself to a medical emergency. So while doing these procedures, not only is a procedure important to pay attention to, but the surrounding safety as well. You know, are there other people in the room to help you assist? In case you need another hand, do you have monitors? Is there nothing in the room to be able to help if you have an emergency? That's basically what it is. This case was just absolutely tragic in every possible way. It's far from medicine. You know, this is what we call pathology. And by that, I mean pathology and the provider himself, you know, that's fear, that's ego, that's not wanting to be held accountable.

13:27You know, all of those factors take or playing into this situation which lead ultimately to a horrible horrific outcome. Yeah. And in the story, he ultimately, obviously, panic, he stored this woman's body in a suitcase. He was later buried under his garage in his New Jersey home. He pleaded guilty to first degree assault in the death of Maria Cruz. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison. And you know, you're just sort of wonder. I mean, I don't know if you sit around thinking when you see these kinds of episodes, what goes on in the mind, especially as somebody who is a trained doctor, trained physician. I mean, I'm sure you must wonder what goes on in somebody's mind like that. You know, I do. And I have to say, whenever I can't understand the logical reasoning, then I just assume pathology is involved in these decisions, some way, shape, or form. This very much is in my mind what an example of it is. You know, and that's what I mean pathology. Something has gone wrong, which has not allowed this person to logically reason and has led to other people getting hurt.

14:28Well, our team caught up with FIOLO after he had served 17 years of his 20-year sentence. He was released on parole. And here's what he said about why he lied. I know I was drunk and high during her final treatment. She was in a lot of discomfort. And I was a long treatment. I used too many files of LIDAR cane. And you're doing this drunk and high. Yeah. There's no logic to it. There's no justification. I knew it was wrong. And deep down inside, I was afraid that something was going to go wrong. What is it like for you, Doc, to hear a story like that and also to hear his reasoning? Infuriating. You know, when you hear reasoning like that, there's no other motion that other than anger and frustration because it's one thing to do something selfishly. It's another to do it selfishly. And then that result in harm of another. You know, and that's where we have to hold people accountable. You gave some thoughts earlier about how people might be able to hopefully prevent themselves

15:31from becoming victims of these kinds of medical scams. You said maybe taking a look at credentials, making sure they know where the doctors were trained. Any other thoughts about how people can protect themselves? Yeah. So just helping people break down how the process of training works for a physician, I think is helpful because when you go into a hospital, you'll meet many people who might have white coats on, might have badges, and you might say to yourself, what is what and who is who? So as a physician, that typically involves training that involves four years of medical school approximately, at least within the United States, and then four years of four to seven years of training, depending on what your specialty is. And then after that training is completed, you then complete another series of tests, which include board certifications, and to help people understand this, this means that you are validated, that you are specialized in a specific area of medicine. So I have my training completed in emergency medicine, and I am a board certified emergency medicine physician. That includes oral and written exams that will then verify that you have completed the specialty training. But most importantly, your board certification means also that you have ongoing training,

16:32because your boards need to be basically, you need to retest for them, and you need to continue education to keep your board certification. So it's an active process. So you need to be educated yourself before you go in to do a procedure, which could be helpful. And that can be helpful for patients to know about as well, because a lot of this is publicly available. So if you check on your state board exams, you can check for physicians' information. You can check for their board examination or their board certification. You can check for their license. And you can also see if there's any issues with law that they've needed to respond to with the board, and that often is made publicly available. Many people don't realize that these things are publicly available, and I think that it's so important for every patient before participating, especially in something a series of surgery, you check. Yeah, you check and check again. Yes. Well, Doc, sometimes the stories we've covered haven't necessarily involved in postures, but they have involved medical professionals in other ways. One of the stories I covered was the one of Gypsy Rose Blanchard. So many people remember she was convicted of second-degree murder in 2015 in the death of her mom, a young woman who had been victimized

17:34at the hands of her mom, who had taken her from doctor to doctor to doctor, trying to convince her and everybody else that she was suffering from life-threatening illnesses. So don't go anywhere. Dr. Sutton is going to help us break down that story when we come back. We shop for everything at home now. Why can't we shop for blinds at home, too? That's why I love three-day blinds. Instead of wandering around a store, three-day blinds sends a professional design consultant straight to you. They bring all the samples, help you see what actually works in your space, take expert measurements, and even handle the installation. We've all bought something that looked great in a store and looked terrible once we got home. With three-day blinds, you see everything in your actual light with your actual furniture before you commit. Plus, whether you're home or away, you can control your window treatments with the three-day blinds app. So for a free, no-charge, no-obligation consultation, head to three-dayblinds.com slash save50

18:35for our by-one get one 50% off deal. That's the number three, d-a-yblinds.com slash save50. Welcome back to 2020, the After Show. We are talking about false representations of medical situations, doctors, and also episodes that we've covered where medical issues have been at the core of the stories. And one of those was Gypsy Rose Blanchard. I covered that story, Dr. Sutton. And it was one that was really captivating to me in a way I hadn't expected. This young woman had been imprisoned for killing her mom. Her mother had all kinds of things done to her daughter to make it appear that she was suffering from cancer, making it appear that she had all these life-threatening illnesses. And it turns out that she really wasn't. It was a story that captivated the country for a very long time. And people were so, so, you know, glued into our episode

19:35when we covered it on 2020. I remember hearing the term, Munchhausen Biproxy, a family member, typically a parent, maybe a mother, who is faking illnesses on behalf of a child to get attention. They don't really call it that anymore, though, or it's not used in that way anymore in medicine. Well, clinically in medicine, I think we're stepping away from these titles that involve names and really defining them to help make sure that we are avoiding confusion. So right now it's called fictitious disorder imposed on another. And essentially, this is a diagnosis or disorder that does not have a biological cause or reasoning that, again, is imposed by a caregiver or someone else that is opposed to that patient. It is a very rare but severe form of child neglect that every physician, every provider, every hospital health care provider. It in general needs to understand so that we can recognize a red flag. This story just really moved a lot of people because at the core of it, this girl who did go to prison was a victim. She ultimately conspired with her boyfriend to kill her mom, DD Blanchard.

20:38And she had allegedly engaged in years of really medical child abuse. For decades bringing her daughter to the doctor and we talked about it, our episode was called Gypsy Rose for next act because she was coming out of prison talking about what she would do after that. And I spoke with her just after she had come out of prison. She was really upset with the medical profession or certainly the medical community. She felt that she had been let down. DD had convinced doctors, friends and her community. The Gypsy was suffering from all kinds of conditions including epilepsy and leukemia, turns out they weren't true. And she was using a wheelchair. She even had a feeding tube inserted. She would go from one doctor to another. And if one doctor seemed to get a little suspicious, she would pack up and leave. And she would go to another doctor. And then that doctor taking her word and her paperwork because she's the advocate would believe her until maybe something sort of triggered something

21:39and then she would move on again. I know you can't get into the minds of people who do this and certainly you're not the mental health expert. You obviously are a doctor who treats people physically but the idea that somebody does this and gets away with it for years is just mind blowing to us. And it must be to you also as a physician. Absolutely, it's a severe form of child abuse. And I have to say that the Gypsy's frustration with the medical community is warranted. In many ways she was let down. And when you look back at this case and I followed it myself, I think many of us did just in general because again, it's one of those rare but severe forms of child neglect that you only really read about and hopefully you don't experience as a provider or a person in general. And that is when you develop the risk for harm because many times it was probably in a sense where they were listening and they were trying intently to understand what the problem was but they were constrained by time and what took a break in this moment or what would have broken this moment was if someone probably would have taken her aside and had a real honest and trustworthy conversation with the patient rather than the provider

22:40or the caregiver. And we asked the doctors about this and they said the mom would never leave her side. I actually ask. Yeah, a red flag. That's something that maybe they should thought of. You know, we'll talk about red flags but that is one of the key red flags. When I'm in the emergency room and I'm having conversation with partners who are available with mothers or fathers, I make an effort regardless of the complaint to separate the patient from another person. I think it's so important to do that. And I always try to remind my parents, especially when they're children are young, I understand the concern and the fear. And I say, hey, we'll close the door and we'll leave, you know, you can see us in here but I do believe it would be helpful if we have a one-on-one conversation because sometimes they might not want to tell mom and they might not want to tell dad. And I think that if our goal is to make them as healthy as possible, we need to make sure that they're honest and we all remember what we were like. And so I use that tactic, but in reality, I'm separating to assess for safety. And I think it's so important. Have you run into cases in the emergency room where there have been parents who are overbearing, overprotective and you worried for second whether there might be something?

23:41Absolutely. And I think when you sense it, it's a little bit of intuition and you have to factor that in or you have to, you have to mix intuition with some level of verification. And I think whenever you have a question, you have to trust your gut and you talk to other providers around you, you ask the question and we do this often in the emergency room, we communicate about our cases and we say, do you think anything is inappropriate about this? But I have to say, as great as it would be to give doctors all the credit, really talking to the other providers, most importantly, nurses who are with patients more often. Nurses are right there. Seeing those interactions with the family, they can help give you an understanding that is so helpful. So many times, nurses in my career at least have caught so many things that have helped me be a better physician. And I think it's so important to make sure you keep that communication open. Yeah, when you get a hunch. Well, I think oftentimes because we brought these kinds of stories to the surface and to the forefront, doctors like you are more informed as well. Absolutely. What can be happening out there, even if you haven't run across it.

24:42Point out that Gypsy did plead guilty to second degree murder. She admitted that she masterminded and planned the murder with her boyfriend, Nick Gaudijon, who carried out the stabbing. He's still in prison, by the way. He was convicted of first degree murder. As of this recording, he is seeking a new trial. She was released on parole December 28, 2023, after serving eight years of her 10-year sentence. She's gone home with her life. She's now become a mother. She said that she had regrets about the murder. And she wanted her story to be a cautionary tale to others about the psychological and physical control, which again, it is something important for people to know that these things can happen. You just would not imagine a child coming out into the public and getting the sympathy of people and being seen as sick to have been manipulated. What about services and resources that might be out there for folks who might be suffering and dealing with issues? Yeah, I think if you have any concerns or questions,

25:44number one, if you are concerned that there is criminal activity happening, contacting authorities, police is so important. Talking to your provider, if you have a patient advocate inside the hospital asking for social workers, these are often available within hospitals that can help you communicate. You know, if you have a person that is repetitively coming in or going to the doctor, if they're getting constant treatments, but it doesn't seem like anything is improving. And if it seems like the attention is going to the care, the care provider rather than the patient, these are red flags that you got to pay attention to. And I think it's so important to always ask questions. Any tip-offs for you that you look for that could involve either abuse or something that is not quite as it appears when somebody comes in the emergency room? Someone who is a high utilizer of medicine in general, you always have to take a step back and ask yourself, why, is there pathology? Is there something wrong here, medically that is not being treated? Because either way, there's something wrong. And by that, I mean, if there are high utilizations, they're not getting the answers that they need for their medical problem. Or is there another reason why they're utilizing medical care so much? And that could be signs of abuse,

26:45signs of neglect, signs of assault. So you have to ask questions if someone is a high utilizer. And then also, again, if treatments are ongoing, but nothing is getting better, that is a red flag. Yeah, asking questions and knowledge is power. Absolutely. Dr. Darryan Sutton, we can talk all day about these. Thank you. Great seeing you as always. Our 2020 episodes, of course, are on Friday nights. You can catch us every Friday on ABC. And of course, you can stream episodes on Disney Plus or Hulu. So keep watching. From the dope game to the rap game. A new series from the streams of Snowfall. I can't not do this. Now back to the hitter. Ethics presents the drop of Snowfall saga. The rap game is the new goal rush. Hey, run, hey, back. You go down this road. You know, Kishil, so cute. Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, Hey, girl. Who got a real chance to do something?

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