The Browns rebuilt their O-line, but did they fix it?

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Hey, everybody.

Welcome to the Orange & Brown Talk podcast, Dan Lobby here.

Lance Ryzen is going to join me today.

And he's going to talk about the additions

the Browns have made on the offensive line.

So we go through all of the guys.

We talk about what he's seen on film,

how he thinks they all fit together.

I do want to give you one disclaimer

and I mentioned this on the pod too.

As we're, as I'm recording this,

and also as we recorded with Lance,

we don't know what Joel Patoneo's decision is going to be.

So if between now and when you listen to this pod,

there's been a decision by Joel.

Just know that we didn't know if he was coming back

or he was retiring at the time of recording.

It might not matter, but just a quick little disclaimer

as you listen to this offensive line pod.

Please go find our socials.

Just go search Orange & Brown Talk on Twitter, Threads,

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with the Orange & Brown Talk podcast.

Okay, hey, let's talk some online here.

All right, now we welcome on Lance rise.

I'm going to talk a little bit of Brown's online

and how they've remade things this off season.

Lance, good to talk to you again.

Absolutely, Dan, thanks for having me, my friend.

Okay, I don't think I've really had you on much

since the Browns kind of started this undertaking

of remaking the offensive line.

But I guess let's start by looking back.

When you watched that line last year, what was wrong?

Like why weren't they able to kind of figure things out

on that line?

Well, I'm going to go back.

I'm going to obviously, the thing I love about coming

to Brown's practice every single day

and it is going down and watching the offensive line.

And for four years now, I've had the lucky opportunity

to get there every single day, I try not to miss a day

and I always go down and watch the first 25

to 30 minutes of practice are always

with the offensive line.

And the great part about it with all the guys they've had

from Watson to Chadore, no one's ever down there.

So you get a great look at it.

So for me, it goes back to when Calla Hay was here.

So when he was here, he was always about the why.

And so when you watch him coach, it's not just hitting the sled,

it's not, he does all those things

and he works those guys to death.

But there's also that component of,

this is what the guy is going to do on that side

when we do this.

And I thought that was awesome.

And it's that when people say what the why is,

that's what it is.

So like when you tell a guy like why teller,

listen, I need you to do this.

And when you do this, the guy, the linebacker is going to do this.

And that's why those guys were always so prepped.

So when he left, that was kind of the start of the decline.

And that's really not a criticism of the guys they brought in

because that's a hard act to follow.

And I just thought it was super successful.

And then they were also really healthy then.

And that was part of it.

They went a number of years where their health was fantastic.

And then they also had Nick Chubb.

And Nick Chubb is the seventh and eighth man eraser.

And people are like, what the heck is that mean?

Well, as an offensive coordinator,

we're always figuring out RPOs and receivers down in the box.

And McVeigh does a great, but like,

how do we block the seventh and eighth guy down in the box?

Because we don't have enough hats for those guys.

Well, yeah, Nick Chubb, he just ran through it.

So you had all these kind of perfect storms

that they made the run game so good.

And then injuries happened, ages happened.

Some other things have happened.

They also haven't been coached as well.

And once again, I don't criticize coaches

because I know how hard they work in the hours they put in,

but they just haven't been as a good upfront.

And then last year, to Sean comes in a number of years back

and they try to do different things

so they don't really have an identity.

They don't know how to fix it

because you're going away from what you know.

And then last year they had injuries.

They had lack of identity, like I said.

And they really got kind of spoiled then with guys

like Teller, Posek, when he was healthy,

Patoneal, Conklin, when he's healthy.

I said this to this day when Conklin's healthy,

he's a heck of a tackle.

He just hasn't been able to say healthy.

These guys made it easy because they knocked you down.

Not a lot of lineman in the NFL knocked you down anymore.

And that's kind of the new wave

that they've got with these new guys.

These are really good football players,

but you're not going to see what you saw in the past.

These are guys who use angles, leverage, pad level,

understanding more than they do brute force.

But you know, you get that perfect storm.

They pour quarterback play.

They don't have Nick Chubb anymore.

It wasn't all on them, but you know,

it was the idea that it was so good for a while.

And then it just kind of went downhill

for all those factors I mentioned.

Yeah, and look, I don't know about last.

I think it was better last year,

but the year before, you know, you could really tell

that there were some issues with whatever was going on

with the coaching there,

because by probably mid-November, Mike Raible

basically was your O-line coach.

Maybe they almost essentially made that switch

without officially doing it.

So, you know, it's pretty clear why they had to make that change.

The point you made there that I think is really interesting.

And I don't know that it gets talked about enough.

I've said it a few times on this podcast,

but I think this matters.

Titus Howard comes in.

He's played 32 games the last two years.

Had played seven games in 23,

and then you go back in his career.

And this guy has been on the field outside of 2023.

Elton Jenkins obviously suffered the injury last year

but shortened his season.

But prior to that, 15 games, 15 games, 17 games, Zion Johnson,

he's been on the field, you know, 17 games

in three years, 15 games in another.

I think this line just needs guys

that can stay on the field and guys can play

because that offensive line,

they have to work together so closely.

It's such an advantage just to have guys who are out there

every single snap, every single game.

And they just didn't have enough of that these last few years.

Well, I'm going to say this.

This is going to bother your mind

because I always say players over plays and we know that.

But here's the thing about the offensive line

when you say players over plays.

So I go back to Coach K, basketball coach at Duke.

And I thought one of the coolest things,

I try to read a lot, I try to do different things.

One of the things he said was, you know,

five guys as a hand aren't very good,

make a fist and they're a lot stronger.

And really when you talk about an offensive line,

the parts are, when they're whole,

are much better than individual parts.

And so if you can get these guys coach up

and that was kind of the thing with Callahan,

is that he thought of them more as a unit

than in a like a tackle guard center.

It was, we're going to run the zone.

Here's where the defender's got to be.

Here's what we got to do.

We're going to do it this way and there's different ways

to do it, but the idea of, you can't get to that unit

with the, my old line coach used to call it

Big Bear's Dancing.

You can't get them dancing if they're not available.

So your best ability is always availability.

Especially up front because you got to know

what the other guys think him.

You got to know if you're in a double team,

how good is the guy you're double teaming with?

What is he like to do in his double teams?

When does he leave the double teams?

Well, you know, do they use a shuffle technique,

a gallop technique?

Do they use their hands more?

There's so many different variables in an offensive line

that when you're not available,

you kind of lose that rhythm, lose that sink,

lose that ability to work together

and it takes time to get it back together.

And then you add in where you're not,

you're not sure what you're running

so you don't know how to fix it,

which I believe Kevin Svansky,

that's what happened to Kevin when he brought in

Dorsey's that they're trying to maximize the Sean Watson.

Now you're running stuff that we, all this coaches,

we've tried a million things.

I'm old, I've tried a million different things,

but the only things you're successful with on offense

are first of all your players.

And secondly, not when you run what you can fix

and that's what ended up happening.

They couldn't fix what was messing up

because they didn't, that wasn't their scheme.

So a lot of things to do,

but you're absolutely right, Dan, you have to be available

so you can work in Unison day after day after day after day.

It's gotta be so second nature to what you're doing.

And that's what makes offensive line play really cool.

Yeah, and again, before we even start getting

in the individual parts,

that was another thing that you said

that I think is important because, look,

I think what PFF has done is a good thing overall.

I have some issues with PFF,

but I think overall that ability to quantify

offensive line play is a good thing.

I think it makes us better.

I think it makes us all a little bit smarter,

but I also think sometimes we all get caught

a little too caught up in that number,

and which is subjective.

And I think like it's easy to look at one individual guy,

look at that grade and say,

well, this is what I think,

but I think that the offensive line

more than any other position,

you've got to look at it collectively.

You've got to look at how those five guys work together,

how they play together.

Now look, you got to have the parts,

you can't just throw any five guys out there,

and it's going to work.

But I do think it's sort of a rising tide lifts

all both situation.

Like maybe there's going to be a week link in there,

but if you've got five guys that are playing together

at a high level, that makes everybody better.

Well, if you look at a PFF, I've always used it as a tool,

and I've had a lot of people push back

where people have said, well, your opinion is just that too.

And I said, I agree, and a lot of it comes down to that,

but I'll give you an example.

So you can, like pass protection,

you can half slide, you can full slide,

which means we're going to send everybody to the left,

everybody's in charge to the gap to their left.

Sometimes you have slide where the center,

the left guard, and the left tackle will slide,

and the right guard and the right tackle

are in base, big on big.

We just call it Bob protection.

Well, what if you mess up and you think you're the right guard

and you think it's a half slide,

but it really is a full slide,

or if it's a full slide, you think it's a half slide,

and you let a guy go.

Well, PFF, they're probably going to give that right guard

the minus, or they're going to give them negative grade.

And you really don't know the context of it.

So as you're saying, offensive line play,

if you're looking at a receive round PFF,

you're looking at one individual guy,

the context has to be important

when you're looking at an offensive line.

Is the play to them?

Is it away from them?

Who's in charge of the double?

Maybe on a double team, we all do this as coaches.

We say, hey, listen, I like our running back.

We're not going to come off the double team

if the backer goes over top.

We're only going to come off the double team

if he goes underneath.

So there's little nuances that all of us coaches

kind of work, depending on who you're playing.

Maybe you're facing Aaron Donald and you're saying,

you know what, we're not coming off that double team.

We're going to make the linebacker tackle Nick Chubb.

And if he could tackle Nick Chubb, then we lose.

And that PFF says you didn't come off on the double team.

So there's, it's a really good tool

to kind of give you a base, but without context

and without taking into account what's going on

to your left and right of an offensive line.

But it's really hard.

It's a good tool.

It should be part of the evaluation,

but not as much as other positions.

It should be just a little piece.

All right, so let's talk about some of these guys

that they brought in.

Of course, the first big move was the trade for Titus Howard.

They give up a fifth round pick.

Bring him in from Houston, extend him three years,

63 million dollars.

He's going to be the starting right tackle over there.

He told us that last Monday.

So when you look at Titus Howard,

and we're going to talk a little bit

about this with Zion Johnson too,

the Browns went and plucked guys from offensive lines

that basically from teams that are kind of trying

to do the same thing the Browns are doing,

trying to fix and remake their offensive line.

So tell me a little bit about Titus Howard

and what you think he brings at that right tackle position.

Well, first thing he brings is really good pass protection.

He's really good at getting out of stance.

He changes it up.

So he's a very savvy guy in both the run game

and the pass game.

So what I mean by that is he's watching film.

And sometimes people talk about arm length,

but Joe Thomas is kind of mastered,

I always say Joe Thomas is kind of the,

when people talked about using individual hands

in pass protection and when you're punched

and no one ever punched with both hands,

they punched with one hand.

So he's very savvy and that's because for me,

that's because he watches film.

And this goes back to the overlying theme

with all these three guys they brought in.

So in pass game, he'll do a bunch of different sets for you.

So if it's a quick game, he'll jump set you

where he's going to get in your face right now.

Sometimes he's going to kick back, right?

Normally everybody sees that kicking back.

He's really got really quick feet.

Sometimes he's going to use whatever,

you know, it's kind of like a billbellic check thing

where he's going to try to take away your best move.

So if you're an edge guy, right?

He's going to really work on getting kicked out.

He might widen his split a little bit, right?

And you know, when you watch hours of film on him,

you can see some of the veteran things he's doing

with his split, how he takes away certain things.

He'll trap guys where guys will,

he knows guys are going to long arm him.

So, you know, they'll try to get that long arm inside of him.

He'll trap them and pull them down to the ground.

So he's very savvy in what he does.

He also understands where the quarterback is going to set up.

And that's the why.

And I think that's what Warhop will do.

In the run game, we used to say he's a waller.

He's not a maller.

And what I mean by that is he's thinking,

where's the play going?

I got to have my backside between the ball carrier

and the defender.

And sometimes it doesn't look pretty

in zones a classic example.

So if he's by himself there with no tackle

and they're running zone to his side

and that five technique like what the Browns do.

He would say, he would tell him and Warhop would say,

hey, listen, Miles Garrett gets up field really fast

every single time.

So what we're going to do is we're going to make sure

that we use that to our advantage

because if we try to hook Miles,

if we try to do traditional things,

Miles is going to win.

But what we can do for Miles is that we got to make sure

the running back knows that's Miles Garrett

and an outside zone, all outside zone this week,

two Miles Garrett side is going to be inside of me.

That's something that coaches that do very well.

That's what Warhop, Cal Handley's old veteran guys,

Munkin, that's what they do very well.

They're saying, all right, we're not going to beat you

at why beat you at what you do best.

Let's try to attack what you do poorly.

And for Miles, his strength can also be his weakness

in the run game.

If he's getting up field, you saw it a lot of times this week.

Munkin does that against him.

Where they're going to trap counter pin and pull

and they're simply going to get inside Miles.

So he's very savvy what he does.

He's not going to vertically displace people,

very good in pass protection, different pass sets,

savvy with his hands, feeder, excellent, understands leverage,

pad level, angles, all those little nuances,

plays with low, just really good offensive lineman,

good football player.

Yeah, and I think like, you know,

kind of to the point I was making, like, okay,

why would you go to a team that's trying to remake

their own line to get an own line?

You know what I mean?

Like, why would you go to a team that obviously doesn't want

this guy and they want a different direction to fix your,

to fix your problem.

But to me, this kind of goes back to, you know,

is he going to be a pro bowlers?

Are you going to be an all pro?

Probably not.

Can he be just, you know, starter quality for this football team

at Wright Tackle where DeWon Jones hasn't been able to stay

on the field.

Jack Conklin hasn't been able to stay on the field.

It's better to have a guy like that over there who can hold

his own and he's going to be out there every Sunday.

Then try and look, I thought Jack Conklin was awesome

when he was on the field, but the reality is he wasn't

on the field enough like this goes back to that theme.

I've been harping on like, it matters that you've got

somebody over there who I imagine is going to be out there

every single Sunday.

Well, you know, and it's something, you know, like people,

I've had a lot of really good questions every day about like,

hey, coach, watch this rep.

He's, he always doing is getting in the way.

And I'm like, yeah, it's a good job.

And sometimes you, you sometimes like Jack Conklin,

he, you, a guy like that could be his own worst enemy

because Jack Conklin was trying to kill you.

He's trying to knock you down and pin you.

And that's a physicality and a physicality.

It's like a boxer, right?

You only can take so many shots.

And that's what you kind of see with some of these guys

who are so physical, how long can they do that?

So, you know, if there's it like, for example,

I, the example I gave it.

So instead of reaching to the five technique,

it's trying to mic black Miles Garrett in the ground.

He's simply savvy saying, I know what Miles Garrett does.

I'm going to wall him outside.

You got to get inside me.

And it does, sometimes it doesn't look like it's super effort,

but it's really smart.

And those type of things sometimes keep you on the field.

There's, you know, there's a,

there's an idea of maximizing your effort,

but also maximizing your value and maximizing your ability

to be out there.

And sometimes that's hard for guys

because they're, they're so physical what they do.

And then they beat up their bodies

and then they're not available.

So what made Jack Conklin,

and I, I'm with you, Dan, when he's out there,

he's a proble type guy.

He just hasn't been able to stay healthy

because he's so physical.

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Okay, so let's move, you know,

we don't know which side this guy's going to play on.

We know he'll be on the inside.

Let's move on to Zion Johnson.

And this is a really interesting signing

because look, when you go into free agency,

you're probably going to be overpaying.

That's just the way the game works.

And you're going to be overpaying for someone

that obviously the other their former team

didn't think was worth that amount.

But the kind of guys you want to overpay for

are guys who are 26 years old, former first-round picks,

going, you would think going into their prime

of their careers and hopefully on the upswing.

So Lance, does Zion Johnson fit that last part

when you watch him play?

Is this a guy that is on the upswing

and maybe getting to a point where he might be playing

some of the best football of his career?

What is he good at?

What does he need to get better at?

He's a little bit absent.

He's kind of the opposite of Howard.

He's usable in the past game,

pretty dang good in the run game.

Again, he's, you know, Brown's fans got to realize

why a teller, a Joe Platonio,

Posek, when he's healthy concom.

These are guys, and I might say

they're the best lineman ever,

but there's some of the best linemen in the last 10 years

at like getting those highlight pay cake blocks.

That doesn't happen in the NFL very often.

These guys made it look routine.

Why a teller makes it look routine, especially in his prime?

That's not normal.

So that's not what these guys are.

Now, Zion Johnson's gonna vertically display you,

but why it and Joe Platonio would knock you off your feet

and that doesn't happen in the NFL.

So this, he's gonna, in the run game, he's very good.

He runs his feet on contact.

His hands have to get better,

and his hands have to get better in past protection.

I have a friend who is big chargers fan,

football guy understands the game very well.

He's like, you won't love him in past protection,

I'm like, why he's like, he doesn't move his feet laterally.

Well, once again, with War Hop, you would hope,

now it doesn't always happen and there's been misses,

but you would hope understanding where guys line up,

what their gap responsibilities, what their strengths are,

what their moves are, what's the down in distance?

All those kind of things, that's the why

is an offensive line coach, right?

If I'm in a Y-3 technique and it's second in one,

this guy's got to get his hands on me

because we could run the ball.

I also got to know as an offensive lineman,

it's it's second in 10,

this guy's probably blowing the B gap

because he thinks it's a pass.

So that understanding of what you're seeing defensively

is something I think he needs to improve a little bit.

Once it gets his hands on you, he's pretty good.

And I think he'll work his lateral movement,

he's got good feet.

So all those things that made him a first round pick,

those are all the traits that make you a first round pick.

Those are all the things you hear from Tim Beelik,

the lateral movement, all that stuff, the numbers, right?

He's got a short area of burst, he's awesome at that.

But sometimes he gets caught with his feet in mud

and pass protection.

The guy likes to run block

and you'll see some really cool run blocks out of him.

Once again, they're not why I tell a run block,

but they get the job done.

And the more you understand what the guy's doing across from you,

and I say this all the time.

If you go to watch, if you went and watched Calla Hand practice

when he was here as compared to what other coaches here,

only thing you would see is a lot more discussion

between reps and what that discussion was,

hey, remember, when this guy does this,

the guy behind him is doing that

because of the downed distance, because of the strengths,

because of his moves, all those kind of things.

So in teaching him the why,

and teaching these offensive linemen the entire game,

what the front's doing,

what's how the front matches with the linebackers.

Even if you get a safety walking down in the box,

now that guy's in charge of a gap.

So if that guy's in charge of a gap,

who's in charge of this gap?

Oh, that's my guy, you know, things like that.

That will help Zion.

He is a very physical, get off the bus first guy,

a big physical kid.

Yeah, I think it's a guy worth taking a chance at,

because he run blocks, and he's a good athlete,

great feet, short, airy burst, good with his hands,

et cetera, all those things.

So yeah, I think this guy has a chance to be pretty good.

Elton Jenkins, we're going to talk about him

at multiple positions here,

and I just want to point out that when we're recording this,

versus when it's running,

we don't have Joel Betonio news right now.

I don't know if we're going to get Joel Betonio news

between when we're recording this,

the one this actually goes up.

So just keep that in mind as we talk through this.

So maybe the Browns already have a left guard.

Maybe they don't.

Elton Jenkins played center last year.

His best years have been at guard.

You've watched him.

If you were given a blank slate on that line

and said, put Elton Jenkins where he should be,

what position would you put him at?

Well, if I have a, my choice,

I put him at guard, he's really good.

But that being said, this idea of what Monkin

and Warhop like to do,

but especially Monkin,

when people talk about players over plays,

or they talk about schemes,

or, you know, this is not a scheme offense.

This is a players offense.

And what that means is they're going to be able to put guys

in positions to do what they do well

and maximize what the other side does poorly.

Elton Jenkins is probably my favorite pick up.

And here's why.

I think he could play the left tackle.

This guy is a football player.

And when you watch him, could he play guard,

could he play center?

Some guys give you that vibe where they don't move very well.

I love Elton Jenkins in all pro at guard.

And the reason he's all pro at guard,

is he can move his feet like a tackle.

And that's kind of what separates the guards,

you know, usually tackles who don't move very well.

They say, let's kick him down a guard, right?

And that's kind of the general for all of us

at all levels of football.

But this is guy special because he has the mentality

and strength and nastiness to play inside.

And if you think about it,

if you're running zone, you're a double team.

A double team is a double team.

You're either double teaming with some on your right,

some on your left.

Now, if it's a gap scheme,

sometimes you have the block back.

If it's a zone team,

where you're zoning to the two eye,

or the inside eye of the guard,

most likely the guy coming off will be the guard,

or vice versa.

So he understands all that,

but he's physical enough to do it.

But the Browns don't have a left tackle right now.

And when I say this, a football player,

and people always say, what does that mean?

I don't really know what it means.

I can't give you a definition.

But some guys are just really good

at all things of football, right?

We all have friends who,

no matter what they play, they're good at.

If it's accomplished,

that's what I think about Elton Jenkins.

He can play guard, tackle, and center.

Very few guys can do that.

In fact, instead of getting a guy at this point,

who might not be that great a tackle,

if you put Elton Jenkins out that left tackle,

he can be your left tackle.

I really think he can be,

if you have in a pinch.

But I think the Browns,

if it happens,

the Browns have built up some things.

I think, you know,

Tevin Jenkins is the guy

that's got to stay inside struggles a tackle.

What is the accident they're gonna do for you?

I don't know if he's ever gonna do anything

because he just hasn't moved since that leg injury.

I also think a guy, everybody's like,

oh, he's a turnstile.

Yes, KT Levinson was a turnstile attacker,

but he was asked to do something he can't do.

No matter how hard KT Levinson works at tackle,

he's not kick stepping and blocking a Russian.

However, watch some of the plays

when he gets a defensive end

who clout, we used to say it heavy,

where he kind of covers KT Levinson

and KT gets his hands on you.

Boy, that guy can block.

So maybe he's a guard.

So they've built up some depth inside with those guys,

and I'm thinking, you know,

what can DeWon Jones do?

But in a pinch,

Elton Jenkins can be that tackle as well.

Just a really good football player

of all three guys they got.

I like him the best.

Now, he's gotta stay healthy,

but this guy is good.

This guy is good, he understands it.

And if he's healthy, he's a high level guy.

Where the other two maybe are pro-ball type guys,

this guy's already been there

and health is the only thing coming back.

I like this guy a lot.

Yeah, and then it's like he's played tackle

at the NFL level early in his career.

He was playing out there a tackle

before he kind of settled in

and made those pro-balls a guard.

And I think again, talking through this,

I just think, look, there is a clear plan.

Like I said, they have a right tackle set.

Zion Johnson's gonna be one of those guards.

We'll see where Elton Jenkins ends up.

A lot of that might depend on Joel Betonio

and maybe if there's any chance Ethan Postick

is gonna be recovered

and if they want to bring him,

but there's still some moving parts.

But there's a clear plan here

where you can see how they're gonna get

their best five guys on the field.

And that includes most likely

at this point drafting a left tackle

at either number six or number 24.

So you can see a clear path forward to,

here's how we're gonna get the best five guys on the field.

And then there's also gonna be a guy

like Kevin Jenkins who, whether he ends up starting

or just being your kind of swing inside guy.

Dewan Jones is maybe your swing tackle now.

Everything's just kind of aligning

with what they've done.

I don't know how good this line is gonna be ultimately.

I think it's gonna be better than it was last year,

which is really what they need.

I know it's not gonna be the 2020 line.

It's not gonna be the 2021 line or whatever,

but can they just be like a top 15 line

that can give your quarterback a chance

and give your run game a chance?

I think they can and I think a big part of that is,

again, you're gonna have guys that'll play

and you see the vision

of how they're gonna get their best five guys on the field.

Well yeah, and when you get, so you get all that

and then it comes down to football being a team game.

So how do you help your offensive line out?

Well, you gotta have some big plays.

You gotta have guys who make big plays

so you don't have to go 10 to 12 plays every time.

You gotta be up a little bit so you can run the ball.

Balance to me, everybody says they gotta be balanced

and everybody thinks the balance is run pass.

That's not what I think about it.

I think of balances, I'm gonna do what I wanna do, right?

On any down in distance and you know, it's second two.

Now we can take a shot because we had a good first down

because we threw a bubble screen

and Isaiah Biden got me eight or whoever you draft,

get you eight, now you're second two.

Now you bring in, you bring in four receivers

and they go nickel or dime and you run the ball,

you get a big run because you gotta like box.

So balance helps this team too.

They gotta make sure that they, you know,

team simply loaded up the box on first to second down

and then played coverage and blitzed on third down.

That's high school football.

You can't do that in the NFL.

You gotta have balance and what is gonna help

an offensive line is play action on first down.

What's gonna help an offensive line?

Being second in five, you know,

you and I have been together for four years now.

You hear me say second five all the time

and the reason I say it all the time

because I'm top of my call sheet on the top of most

top call sheets is we gotta win first down.

And for me, it was always, we gotta get the second five

because the second five, now I'm a charge, right?

Not you, you don't get to take nickel, dime, blitzes,

all the exotic looks, I do because I can run her pass.

So that's what helps an offensive line

finding guys who can make plays on the outside,

getting a back who, even if it's a terrible run,

you get in the backfield.

People always say, what's great about Jenkins?

He at least gets you to second seven,

even when you don't block me, buddy.

He did it last year.

Now you get some hats, now you're talking second five.

So it can't just all be on the offensive line.

They weren't very good either, but this is a team game

and all those other factors tie in as well.

Yeah, I mean, look, there's a group of people out there

that believes that SACs are quarterback stats.

And I actually, I agree with that too, and extend.

I think SACs definitely go on the quarterback a lot of times.

So, and I think with Shador Sanders

and Dishon Watson both, I think that is the case at times

those guys will take SACs that are on them

more than the offensive line.

So, but I do think when you look at this line right now,

Lance, verse what it was last year.

And I guess there was like the vision

of what it could have been last year

before guys started getting hurt

versus what it actually ended up.

I mean, how much better is this group?

Not knowing who the left tackle is at this point,

like I said, as of recording, not knowing

what Joel Batoni is going to do just yet.

How much better is this line than last year, do you think?

I think it is better.

And here's why I'll give you a couple things.

I think Ethan Postick, and I don't ever discredit players.

I like Ethan Postick a lot, but I thought he took a step back

physically, even before he got hurt.

I think he's struggling a little bit,

getting up there in age a little bit.

So, I think just father time with Ethan Postick.

Teller is not great in straight pass protection

when he's asked just to straight pass protect.

So, because he's more of a mauler.

Now, what you got on this line is,

I think you get an offensive line

that's very functional and very understanding

of what they're trying to do offensively.

And they're not guys who care if they can pin you

or knock you down because that's not what their strengths are.

But what they will do is getting the right place

in the right time.

And we always had a, you know,

a lot of every coach has their own thing,

but we always talk about getting a hat on a hat.

And basically, when you stop the film,

is there for us, we had a gold helmets?

Is there, you know, say we're paying a team

with black helmets?

Is there a gold helmet on a black helmet?

And that's really what offensive line play is.

Sometimes you get beat, sometimes you don't.

But what kills you is when a helmet runs free.

And I don't think you're gonna get with these guys.

I don't think you're gonna get a lot of helmets running free.

These guys are very knowledgeable.

They understand what they're doing.

Their offensive line was a great way they played.

But these coaches they had were good and their veterans.

And they've had to do some of these things

because they're not maulers and they're not guys

who physically beat you all the time.

So they got to be more technically sound with their feet,

more technically sound with their hands.

They got to understand where the ball carries going.

They got to understand where the leverage is.

They got to understand where they're pad level.

What angle do you have to take?

It's not where the linebacker is.

It's where the linebacker's gonna be.

All those type of things you do when you're not better.

Sometimes when you're better,

like sometimes why it tell us just better than you.

And when you do that, you just go,

I don't care what you do.

I'm knocking you down.

But that can also lead to bad habits at time.

And then it doesn't help you as you get older.

So I just think this is a better and more veteran guys

who will have just kind of a,

it's not gonna be super fancy.

And you're not gonna see the highlights you see

and go people going, oh my gosh, look at why I did on this play.

But you are gonna get a lot of helmet on helmet.

You're gonna get a lot of hat on hats,

which I think for me is the most important thing.

Everybody's got a hat.

No, we should say everybody's got to have a hat, every play.

I think that's what you'll get.

Andrew Berry calls you up and says Lance,

we're taking a tackle at six no matter what.

Who is it?

I, dang it.

We're taking a tackle at six.

First of all, you know, I'm not taking the tackle,

but I'm going to carry this in here.

As Andrew has already said, listen,

I'm taking a tackle, I don't care.

What you think of Caleb Downs or Arville Rees,

I'm taking a tackle.

Who am I taking?

I'm taking a fan of the kid out of Utah.

You know, Monroe Freeling is growing on me.

And have I seen the pro days yet, Mr. Berry?

If I've seen the pro days and Monroe Freeling

really impresses me, he's, he's my third guy.

Maui Noah's two and Freeling is third,

but Freeling has come, he's like the old horse race.

He's come from way back to kind of get himself

in the race here.

And if I can go see his pro day, Mr. Berry,

if you can fly me down to the pro day,

it could be Monroe Freeling in a couple weeks

because I think his ceiling,

as long as it's not a huge learning curve

when he gets there, his ceiling is,

I think, even better than the other two possibly,

even though I think Fano is a guy

who could be really good down the road as well.

Maui Noah's a guy you're going to get

where you get, he'll be a day one starter.

You may never, may never be an A plus,

but he'll be a 10 year starting NFL

with a very good lineman.

Well, we're talking about elite guys.

It's got to be Fano or Freeling.

And right now I take Fano,

but I can be persuaded for Freeling.

Okay, so you're sitting there on Thursday night,

the Browns, you've talked to Andrew Berry

into taking Fano.

At number six, draft is moving along.

23, 23 is happening.

All of a sudden you get another phone call

from Andrew Berry and he says,

look Lance, I know I took an alignment.

I know I took a tackle at number six already.

I know we need receivers.

I know probably could use another tight.

And there's a lot of, there's a lot of needs,

but there's this kid named,

named Avega Iwane out of Penn State

sitting here at number 24.

And I know we've signed some guards

and it seems like the interior of the line looks good,

but is this too good of an opportunity to pass up

at number 24 to take a young guard

who could be the best alignment in this draft?

Oh no, I'm running up, I would run up there

with Oliya Avega Owana.

I love him, I've worked out his name so much,

I like him, he's a stud, he's a mauler.

So yeah, I would not be as much as I'd like game changers

as much as I'd like all the stuff

that I always talk about, Mr. Berry, you win up front.

So I'm not mad at that pick at all.

I might go another way, but I'd be like,

I understand that too.

And I always try to stay true to who I am.

It's football starts on the inside out.

So yes, Oliya Avega is available,

I'm going to get him, for sure.

Obviously a different scenario,

but back in 2014, the Browns took a guard

pretty early in the second round.

That guy is gonna be, I don't know if he's gonna get

to the Hall of Fame, but he's gonna be on those lists

in five years, he's gonna be one of those semi-finalists,

one of those guys, he's getting talked about

in that room, I think, in Joel Batonio.

So it's not a bad thing.

Obviously I know this team has a lot of other needs,

but if you do have a guy who you can plug into a spot

like that for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, man,

that's valuable.

Well, you know, the thing in his football,

and once again, my former Olian coach,

Gene Merchakowski, Gene is played in the NFL

with the right guard for Tom Brady.

Well, you know, I learned so much for Gene.

Gene has forgot more offensive line play than I'll ever know.

And the one thing he always said is,

you have to, the offensive line should be a non-factor.

He's like, he always, like, almost like special teams, right?

If they're doing their job,

no one ever says anything about him, whatever it is,

but that for me is kind of the motto I've always taken.

So as much as you need receivers,

it's not you need all these guys.

So if you have a guy who is a C plus, right?

So if you have skill guys who are C pluses,

if you have running back, tied in receivers,

guys who are C pluses, but all of a sudden,

you make your offensive line in A.

Well, now those C pluses are B pluses.

They may never be A's, but now they're B pluses

because NFL receivers can separate

if the quarterback gets over four seconds.

That's a proven fact.

Quarterbacks are highly accurate if they know they're protected

and they don't have to move their feet

and they stay on rhythm.

So as much as you'd like to have A pluses on the outside,

sometimes you gotta say, you know what,

we can't get the A plus,

but I get with a good offensive line,

I can turn C pluses into B pluses.

So I have an A offensive line and B pluses every year,

or else, that leads you a lot of football games.

I haven't asked you a ton about George Warhop before,

so before I let you go,

I mean, you have mentioned him a few times

on what you think, why it's important to have him.

What do you like about him so much?

Well, veteran guy, so the thing I will tell everybody

is the why, and I know once again, this go,

I have, as people have told me,

I have sayings that I say over and over,

and they don't like to hear him.

So you're gonna, this is another one, but why?

And the reason I say that is because

when I go down there and watch offensive lineman,

everybody, there are no bad offensive line coaches

in the NFL, people say that all the time.

There's sometimes there's not right fits,

but these guys know the game of football.

But as an offensive lineman, you always see

that they gotta get tougher, they gotta hit the sleds,

they gotta hit the, these are grown men

who are 350 pounds.

They know how to do that stuff.

What they wanna be taught is, all right,

if I'm blocking Dan Lobby, who is behind Dan Lobby,

and why do I have to block him?

How do I know where Dan Lobby's got,

where, how do I know where Dan's going,

and the guy behind him's going?

That's what I think Warhop, guys like Warhop and Caland.

Now I don't know if he's Caland,

because that's unfair to do with anybody.

But that's what you're gonna get.

You're gonna see guys going back to what I said

I had on a hat.

There's too many free runners last couple of years

where guys are just running free

because of the scheme of the defense corner.

I don't think you'll see that with Warhop.

Now it could be wrong, but that's kind of what I see at Warhop

when I hear these guys talk.

So it's gonna be the idea of the knowledge that he brings.

Everybody hits the sleds and pulls and counter and gap,

and zone all those things.

You and I will be talking about the next 12 months.

But the big thing he's gonna bring is experience

and why these guys are blocking who they're blocking

our particular place.

All right, there we go.

That's Lance Ryzen, some offensive line talk.

Lance, as always, appreciate the time.

Absolutely, thanks for having me.

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