The Case for Quitting with Lindsay Crouse

0:00Big news. The first ever Fisty running retreat is happening February 5th through 8th, 2027 in Austin, Texas. Many of the elements of AMR retreats will be happening. Morning runs or walks, yoga, open water swimming, learning sessions, pickable and tasty meals, plus we're adding in numerous Fisty elements, including Selene Yeager talking about Perry Manipaus and Manipaus. For all the details and to register, click the link in the show notes. Welcome to another Mother Runner, your best running friend in podcast form. We do all the talking even on the up hills. I'm Sarah Bowen Shea, along with co-host Tish Hamilton. Hi there Tish and welcome back from the AdRundax. Thank you Sarah. I would say it's good to be back. Good to talk to you again. It's also great to be back in the humidity of Savannah, Georgia. Although for our friends on YouTube, they can see that you appear to be

1:05in a Brooklyn loft. Yes, nice, isn't it? Look how well organized I am with all my, yeah, your bookshelves. Matching bookshelves. Yes, I'm so envious and it turns out that it's because it's a through the magic of AI from our recording platform. And so far as the host, I can't figure out how to make mine appear that way. You just see my, you know, unadorned guest bedroom slash basement recording studio. Yes, so maybe the next time you'll be in a Brooklyn loft like me. No, I think I want to, you know, an airy Paris apartment or... Oh, they have that too. Let me guess another one would be San Francisco with a view, you know, probably, right? Yes, so I did. I was up in the AdRundax for two weeks and we were in the Lake Placid area, although we were in a town called Wilmington. And I feel like did you do a Lake Placid retreat

2:09last year? Didn't another mother undergo them? We did one in 2025 because the one in 2024 was so fabulous and because Mirror Lake is one of the most magical places to swim. Yeah. I thought that was, I thought that was one of your happy places, Mirror Lake. It is. It is. Yes. So I'm not a swimmer. I have, because of, I have chronic ear pain. Your problems from back when I was a child. So it's not, it's never been my thing. But we had, I had been to Lake Placid a lot since my daughter was in elementary school. One of her friends, their family has a house and late placid. So we went a lot. Thank you. Thank you, dear friends. I've gratitude still to this day. And, and, you know, we went in the winter. So, you know, we, we skied. She skied. I feel like I'm concentrating a verb here. She has skied. She will ski. Although as she got like, um, you know,

3:20older, we went through until she was about 13 and as she got, you know, more teenage years and they, she could go with her friend and not me. I'd like, okay, y'all go ski and I'm going to go for a run. I'll think of later. Are you a skier, Sarah? So, you know, growing up in New England and Connecticut, I did learn how to ski. And then I learned how to snowboard when I worked at City Sports Magazine in San Francisco. Wow. I'm impressed. So up in Tahoe and on press trips and things like that, I for a long time had Ray nose syndrome. And so I just, my, um, hands and feet would get very, very cold. And it was unpleasant. And I just, I have a very low thrill seeking factor. Like, I don't, I don't, like, I read it as fear, not thrilling. Um, I had a really lovely pair of Varney sunglasses. This is related. Um, when I was in high school and they had, oh, they cost me

4:24so much money back in the day. And I pretty much ruined them because my friends, my high school friends took me on a black dime and run up in Price Stover Mont. And I cried so hard that I streaked the inside of the glasses. And I just, the lenses just were never the same again. Wow. You cried. You cried. You yourself. No, because I was so, so scared and so tense. And just thinking I'm never getting down and just, oh, I was just panicked. Yeah. I totally hear you. Um, I think he'd be, I was, as I was thinking about getting on this call, I'm like, you know, I haven't skied in probably 10 years. And, and, you know, it may not happen again. If, if I were with someone who really cared deeply about going and took the initiative and, and what passes and the gear and everything, okay, maybe yes. But it's, it's like, like you I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not going down a

5:27double black dime and that's just not happening. Like, where's the green hill, please? And maybe I'll work up to the blue by the time I'm done. And, and, you know, and it's also expensive. So I just, you need to, you need to really be into it to, to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And just, and then when I, so then when I took up snowboarding, I enjoyed it. I found it exhilarating, but also being 511, when I fell, that's a really long, quick, lash tail to boom by the time my head would hit. And this was pre, I guess there must have been helmets for people to wear doing snow sports, but it was a rarity. And I just, ooh, it was, it was painful, literally painful to fall. So I, I didn't enjoy it a ton. And so I gave it up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we were there in, in, in September, late August and September. So there's no need to contend with lots of, lots of trails to hike. We did a lot of hiking and, and the Adorondik real trail, which I was

6:32telling you about last week, which was 34 miles one way. And so we rode portions of that. And on a gravel bike. And it's, you know, because it's a real trail, it's got, you know, the packed, the packed sturt trail. Yes. And there are a lot of breweries so we could go out for a room, a beer and, and good food afterwards. We've like, you know, tasted all the ones in there. Yeah. But we liked it so much. We like it so much. We have already booked our house for next summer. Look at you. Wow. Oh my goodness. Wow. You and, you know, Amanda Loudon, another one of my co-hosts. You know, yes. Sure. Yes. No, Amanda is another one of your co-hosts. I know she is hiking all the 4,000 and higher peaks in the, in the Adorondikes. And we're like, you know, we're like doing the baby peaks. We worked our way up to one that was like 3,080. And that's really that was enough for us. It was about, it was almost seven miles round trip. And it took about seven hours. I remember

7:36between hiking up and taking breaks and eating lunch and all that stuff. So, so kudos to Amanda for doing that. That's so cool. What's really great for me is my friend, who, my best teacher friend, she comes up. Her son works in the Adorondikes Information Center. In fact, I think Amanda might have met him planning one of her trips. Small world. I know. Isn't that so fun. So, so, you know, we're there and then, you know, have a friend come up and visit and do runs and hike. So, it's, you know, it's really, it's really nice and it's such a nice change of pace from from Savannah's heat and humidity. And I don't mean to knock Savannah. It's going to be so nice here in October, November, December. And I'm going to be like, aha. You are a fair weather friend, Tish. I totally am. Yes. Yes. Accusation. Guilty is charged. So, but you need to confirm with Amanda and see if because if you're going to be there for another two weeks, I bet chances are good. She'll be up there. The same time that you're. Yeah.

8:40This is a great idea. I will reach out to her and say, why don't you plan on your peaks up them? I'm not coming up with you. I'll say goodbye. We'll be on the way back down. Me for beer afterwards. I'm on. I think then I would need to go out there and we record, you know, a podcast and I swim in mirror lake, you know, the whole thing. And then I can just segue right into if FICIFAS is still in Pennsylvania again next year. I'll just stay out. I'll just go out for the entire month of September to the east coast. It is the nicest. I mean, you know, you grew up in Connecticut. You know, like September really is the nicest time in the Northeast. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Well, we'll welcome back. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. All right. Well, today's topic might seem a bit counterintuitive or surprising on a podcast and from a community that's intended to be encouraging and supportive, but they're with us. The topic is quitting. Our guest, Lindsey Krauss examines quitting from numerous angles in her out this weekbook, the case for quitting.

9:43Lindsey Krauss is a award-winning journalist who worked at the New York Times for more than 15 years for part of that decade and a half. She was a senior staff editor for the New York Times opinion section where her reporting on women's sports helped bring maternity rights to professional athletes. A mother of two young daughters, Lindsey is a longtime runner. Welcome to the podcast, Lindsey. It's a real pleasure to be speaking with you. Tish and I are both big fans of your work. Hi, thanks for having me. So Lindsey, I know you ran for college and college ran cross-country, but tell us about how you got started running. Sure, absolutely. So growing up, like a lot of girls my age, I'm a millennial, I was kind of in high school, high school middle school in the 90s, I guess. I grew up playing soccer for the most part and I loved soccer and would highly recommend putting your kids in team sports to begin. I loved chasing the ball though, that was always

10:43my favorite thing and what frustrated me was that any time I kind of scored a lot of goals, the coach would take me out and I really didn't like that. And so I started playing, I mean, there wasn't a lot of running in my hometown, especially not in the younger sort of stages and I was doing drama club at middle school instead of track. And so I did soccer in the falls in my town and then moved to indoor and outdoor track. And I read about this in the book, but like the first time an indoor track that the coach had us run four miles, I was like, are you kidding? I just did like a four mile road race like last week and that was like a marathon to me. It was like, it was so hard. And I just I kind of couldn't believe that that could be prescribed as like a regular jog. But then I that it was so exciting because I realized like actually I could do this. And it was supposed to be a regular jog and it was really, really cool to me to have that be I get like to kind of recalibrate what like a normal way to move or exercise could be. And so I wound up you know

11:52doing indoor and outdoor track and I wasn't that good until something kind of clicked for me in one race like towards the end of outdoor track my freshman year. And I was just doing a 1500. And it was so interesting to me and I'm sure you guys went through this as well, but it was like it was this idea that hard hard was relative. Like I always thought I was running hard in the races and then I got to that final 200 of the 1500 race and I just started sprinting. And I just started catching up to whoever the fastest girls were ahead of me like I didn't pass them, but I was with them. And it was so exciting to me to kind of re again like reorient myself and my capabilities in my own mind. I mean again we're talking about like Rhode Island like class meets like small state in the country and like a third of that like this is not like the Olympics. But that that's what I love about running. And I'm sorry I'm giving the longest answer here, but it is what I love about

12:52running. Like I just remember that moment so seminally as like oh this is my sport. And I still played soccer for like the next two years. And then it was like a huge you know it was like Lindsey's choice to switch to cross country like I weighed it forever in the fall. And then I started doing cross country and then I was a runner. So that's that's anyway that's the long windup to like I think I fully committed to kind of thinking of myself as a runner um junior year of high school. And by the time senior year of high school came around like could not like was always all in like could not conceive of going to college and not being able to run there. I thought you guys I'm so curious have you guys talked about this on your podcast or I'd love to hear your story as journalists. My quick answer is I started running when I took up rowing in college. And so it was just as a tool for cross training. And then when I graduated college and moved to San

13:56Francisco I had so little money because I was in the magazine industry. So and I was in an absolutely beautiful place. So running was cheap and a great way to be outside. Totally yeah. And my short answer too. I was in the magazine industry and running was cheap and a great way to be outside. Awesome. I totally echo the running is cheap. I feel like people don't kind of I remember like thinking like wait a second she was cost a hundred dollars. Like are you kidding me? Like this is supposed to be so cheap. But other than that. Yeah. Yeah. So why a book about quitting and why now? Absolutely. So I think for a lot of my career at the times a lot like I think the guiding question for me was how to keep going how to go harder how to do more. And I think there's really a place for that. But I mean obviously perseverance is essential and something that we really need

14:58in order to succeed. But I think for me that and it really worked for me like I wound up doing a lot of reporting that I never would have done without those values like helping to bring maternity rights to professional athletes sponsored by Nike. And other shoe companies I commissioned the first film that when the Academy Award the for the times is only I guess Academy Award winning film. And I was really really proud of that. But I also think that required a lot of I guess like relentlessness. And I think for me that started to catch up with me. I mean I write about this in the book I wrote about this in a in a column in the New York Times a few weeks ago where I just was constantly saying yes to everything. I refused to walk away from anything any kind of like no or challenge. I just considered like a setback to overcome. And I don't think that's just me. I think a lot of people are accustomed to kind of feeling like perseverance is the only way forward

16:06and the best way forward. And I know for myself like I really thought of perseverance and quitting as complete opposites. And I think in the long run if we do want to do our best we don't just need to learn to keep going or to kind of especially for women drop on this ability to persevere that we've cultivated and kind of been proud of for our whole lives and been rewarded for for our whole lives. Like if we really want to do our best and be happy we also need to learn to quit. And giving up on things that don't work is the only way to find something better. I don't think I learned that growing up. I think I just learned go go go and like don't look behind you. And so what I'm trying to say in this book is like is the quitting actually might be the path that you're seeking to something better. It could be a pivot it could be a break. It could also be in the case of myself and you know many other distance runners. Some of whom I talk about in the book but many others who have kind of lived this story it can be a chance to go further than

17:10you were ever going to go before. And so basically I'm writing this book as a way to not only just invite people to think about quitting as an option but to encourage them to take it one instinctively they know it's right. Right so call me Alonus Morissette but isn't it ironic that you've left slash quit your long time job at the New York Times to write this book and pursue other independent projects. Yes and no I think I was really looking so a lot of my best work at the New York Times was self-assigned. As I started to write this book I started to realize that I was living you know I'm in my 40s now. My life circumstances are completely different from what they were when I described like kind of how I came into this job right like I was broke it was in my 20s I had had no idea what I was doing I had no foundation for anything I needed all those things like I think it made sense for me to say yes to everything I never changed those behaviors. And at the same time

18:10a lot of my best work at the New York Times was self-assigned. All that work that did it on maternity rights for athletes like that was just my own like you know I was talking to Cara Goucher and Lauren Flushman one day in the cafeteria and they were like at the cafeteria at the times they were oh by the way like secretly this is like like I know you're writing an article that's like how great it is that we can do this but here's what it actually was like. That was just me kind of being like I have this platform I have this ability to pursue this like let's do it and I and I have this like connection to the video department like let's merge all these interests and try to like have an impact here like that's what the New York Times is here for. But I think especially as time went on I didn't know how to disentangle hard work from working pointlessly hard. I think that all can feel the same and so I think for me and at the same time I was as I was saying living a life that in many ways was dictated by a 20-year-old with a very different set of priorities and circumstances and so I think for myself writing this book is actually

19:13closing one chapter of my life to open a chapter to one where I think I will have more autonomy and more freedom and kind of like that's what I've always wanted to do and just didn't really feel possible so this book for me is sort of that transition convincing myself to kind of pursue something that I know 10 years looking back is what I would actually want to know that I tried this and and don't for it. So Lindsay you're a mother you have two kids how old are your kids? They are four and one four and one okay so you're talking to a community of mother runners and you do you talk about this in your book but I'd love for you to talk to us a little bit about how having kids changed your perspective on perseverance when you're just talking about your circumstances now are much different than when you were 20 and starting right but how did how did having kids in your life help flip that switch? Yeah I think I mean it's tricky right because I don't

20:21want to I don't want to be like an avatar for leaving employment as soon as like things get hard with with work but at the same time I think for myself I'd always worked I think I was saying this earlier in this conversation I've always worked more than one job and also a book is a job and I think I wasn't really being honest with myself so I can't I really for myself need to need to make it clear like writing a book was a job and I was kind of doing that on the side like the same as I was doing a lot of my sports reporting on the on the side like as I was working my job producing short documentaries and I mean and I get this like in the past anytime I was really tired I would like throw a marathon at the problem and like run a marathon and like somehow going hard yeah like somehow going hard on all of these fronts was like energizing for me but I think especially in hindsight that was because I could control all of these all of those things like with marathon training even though it's really hard it's very predictable when I was

21:25freelancing sports or sports articles for the times I was pitching them I was deciding what they were in as time went on I think I had like a specific playbook for that with with writing a book this is my first book I'd never written one before and it was a very open-ended book we sold it undeveloped so I was kind as soon as we sold it and it was a great opportunity and I'm glad I said yes I think it's always really good to to challenge yourself but at the same time my agents reached out to me with their idea for this book when I was six weeks pregnant which is before you really tell anyone aside from like potentially your husband and I think doing those two things in tandem for me and so this is like this is where it's very specific to me I don't want to kind of tell other women how they should or shouldn't approach these challenges but for me having children was really complicated because it was extremely unpredictable I had no control and I think a lot of a lot of distance runners really like control

22:29and kind of being able to pace themselves and like manage the cadence and like hard work that you don't control is a lot harder than hard work that you can and with kids I just found myself like I mean first of all my entire sense of time and how I spend it changed as I imagine is pretty similar for other other women but I think also the fact that I felt like and I kind of knew this when I was younger that like running was my children that makes sense I don't know if it does make sense but like that I had like my friends I had like my family or like whoever my partner was and then I had running and I kind of knew I was kind of look at my life as like a triangle I guess and I kind of knew that when I had kids like there was a chance that running was going to have to go and I think because a book factored into those things it just the work part of it was overwhelming

23:33and I feel like as my worker on the book has wound down I've been able to have room for running again but for me it was it was a real trade-off and it was one that I think I expected but not as intensely as it wound up happening I don't know it was it was it was and also giving birth I didn't recognize I didn't realize that if you could have an easy pregnancy that look I mean it's not like I was I don't know which pregnancy is like super easy but it was fine and my giving birth experience was really hard I had a lot of birth injuries coming out of it and that never occurred to me I felt like I mean I even feel like in the past five years people talk about this more or maybe I'm just looking for it more but I felt like especially because of the reporting that I did around pregnancy I was like oh giving birth like if you're an athlete you'll be fine and that was not my experience yeah yeah all right so very early in your new book

24:34you write quote our version to quitting to being a quitter is reinforced reinforce from all corners and quote it seems women in particular are constantly bombarded with perseverance propaganda you've written a fair bit about the differences in this sphere between men and women the opinion pieces very interesting can you talk a little bit about it especially in the workforce and relationship so taking it somewhat out of the running realm sure um yeah so to back up I wrote an article in 2018 about the Boston marathon that was about and it was not just about running but it was about like why men quit and women don't and it was based on this observation that has been backed up by data about how in that terrible weather Boston marathon women finished to hire rates the men and I watched that and intuitively knew it was true and it was and so I looked at the reasons um that were you know the physical the psychological and the sociological reasons why women are so good at enduring and obviously that was a little bit about running in

25:37the marathon but it wasn't right like I think everybody who read that and like that article especially women um and especially younger women and this is why it started to bother me over time like I would go to cocktail parties or running events and like younger women would come up to me like this ambitious younger women and be like oh you wrote that article like I have that on my refrigerator like it reminds me that I can do anything and especially as um and that's why I wrote the article it made me feel like I could do anything um or everything and in a way that was true and until we have a book about quitting right and like all the themes in the book that I talk about where it's like you can do everything but you can't do everything well um or you will start to buckle under the pressure of trying to do everything well and start kind of like failing but still think that you can succeed um and so I think in work so that's why I wrote the article let's write the chapter in the book about kind of questioning that article it's like this idea that women can't like women like me I don't want to talk for all women but I know I'm not the only one I think a lot of us go and run marathons

26:42but like a woman like me loves a good challenge and we'd love to work we work at home we work at work we work at work for our family and friends um and we really think that with all of this work everything is gonna work out like that we will succeed and it doesn't occur with quitting does not factor into that equation for us and so I think it leaves us to endure in relationships for too long like we just we see like we're like oh relationships are hard like relationships take work and sure they do but also relationship should end that are too hard um uh with work will be like oh this is really hard like I'm failing not like oh maybe I should look for another scenario um and I do think that men often and and data would show right that like men will leave when um when something isn't suiting them and I think women kind of look at ourselves and think like what are we doing wrong like how can I fix this as opposed to looking outside of us and thinking oh maybe a solution exists there instead and it's such a hard thing to figure out right it's such a

27:46hard thing to figure out like when when did the rewards outweigh the costs of the hard work yeah yep yeah absolutely um and so what I wanted to do in that chapter in the book and in the whole book um but also in that time's article was kind of remind a woman like me like I don't want to talk to every woman it's not appropriate or fair but I know I'm not the only one who kind of thinks that my ability who who secretly hopes that my ability to endure a persevere is on its own heroic um and like my ability to murder myself for like something that's really hard is inherently valuable there's like some moral virtue to that um and I mean I'm embarrassed to say that like I like I hope it's clear that I'm making fun of myself a little bit to to say that um but I really in that article and in that chapter and in the book itself like wanted to kind of highlight to women like you may be doing this too and it like no one's gonna applaud you and they or they're gonna applaud you

28:49as you rise and then they're gonna turn around as you fall um and you've got to look out for yourself um and I just don't think women are taught to do that and they're we're not rewarded for doing that but we bear the costs all right let's pause to hear about some great deals from our sponsors I'm a grab and go gal whether heading out the door for a workout or looking for a mid afternoon snack I don't like to slow down so I'm so happy that I recently discovered a Taci new bar called Jambar and it's created by a woman who knows her stuff Jennifer Maxwell Jennifer's name might sound familiar to you back in 1985 this nutritionist ultra runner and mother of six co-founded the original energy bar power bar Jam bars are certified organic bars made from clean wholesome ingredients to provide sustained easy to digest energy these tasty convenient bars contain ancient gluten-free grains only sweeteners found in nature dried fruit or premium chocolate and 10 grams of high-quality

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32:56no questions asked you can get 15% off your first Prevenex order at Prevenex.com with code AMR15 that's P-R-E-V-I-N-E-X dot com code AMR15 Prevenex dot com code AMR15 so I appreciate that you're talking about you keep framing you're you're not speaking to all women you're speaking about yourself but I also think that a lot of the women who are listening to this you know we got a lot of mother runners here and juggling having kids and maybe a job outside the home maybe a job inside the home and and also like liking to have the control or eight of the of running in marathon why not throw marathon in the whole mix and and the idea of knowing when to quit is particularly challenging for for that community for our community and you know first off as you know you just like you've got so much going on and it's hard to to like pause and say okay wait a minute you know why like what's and and it can be hard to find the energy to think through

33:59the why of quitting and and this is a quote from your book are we quitting to escape or simply realizing it's time to stop mm-hmm so I don't think quitting to escape is necessarily the right decision I think that's fine especially if there's something that you truly need to escape um I think if you know if you're quitting to stop early on you'll you can actually probably prevent yourself from needing to escape later um and that's why I kind of talk a little bit in the book about this idea of micro quitting um which is like maybe curating your life or like cleaning out parts of your life that um like I I know I was saying in my case like decisions and like the vestiges of like being a 20 year old um I think I just never really stopped those things or ended them or canceled them or whatever um and was still and then I mean that was fine until

35:01there's just too many things um and so I think um that's where micro quitting can actually be really helpful as it can help build the muscle of like saying no to anything even if it's like unsubscribing from a stupid email list or I don't know not going to like a story hour that you don't need to go to like just kind of transitioning from that saying yes mode that I think I mean as I was saying like in my career in many things in my life like saying yes has it times like been the catalyst for me it's been the catapult to to help me rise um and I think in this period of my life it was like no I have to start saying no um and that I think does help you once you let go of those smaller things that are much less lower that are much lower stakes you can build the muscle to um kind of say no or make bigger changes um so I think that's that's one thing that women can kind of take away there especially moms okay so to talk specifically about running and quitting um even though we are here to encourage

36:03women to run um you are still a runner yet you it seems to me from from reading some of your pieces it seems like and in your book seems like you quit a specific pursuit in running um yeah and this is where I mean this is kind of my this is how I think one thing as well is that you probably can get a little bit more confidence like the line between quitting and failure is not that strong um like I think even when I talk about like runners in the book and like my own experience in the book of like people who are like pushing through injury like you think it's succeeding like you think you're not quitting but you're not actually achieving what you want to do see kind of our quitting um like this happened to me I think in my 20s or maybe it was my 30s I can't remember but there was like some period where I was just getting injured and injured and injured and just kept pushing and pushing and pushing and at some point I was like oh my god I haven't reached a starting line in five years like I guess I've quit and there was something about that

37:04that was like so freeing and so liberating that I was like oh I quit so now I can do whatever I want um and that somehow that for me was the difference like I got so much faster after that um and so it's you think you're quitting like you think you're letting go but you're actually just quitting forcing it like you're quitting this idea of like I have to do it this way like this perfect way and it's all I've always been like a little tormented by especially when I look at like the good runners for example like they're just so much more um focused and like more determined and more consistent than me and like that's probably half me in my own mind um but I think it's also true but like I think when you quit when you quit feeling like you have to do something a certain way it's actually free you to do it in an more authentic way um that usually winds up working better for you and I know that's been the case for me so I don't and one thing that was interesting about writing the book at this period of my life is that I don't feel like I am a poster child for the success that comes

38:07after this particular period in my life and I've just owning that I'm like whatever I'm taking the rest like maybe I'll never get fast again um or maybe I will like maybe I've surprised myself in the past like maybe I'll just or maybe I'll just have fun um but I'm definitely having fun now um and I feel like I just have one of my best summers in memory just because I wasn't forcing things anymore and maybe that's enough and that that's not just in running that's in like my life generally but we're running some part of that uh and and maybe your definition of what success is will change from fast to something else exactly no that's exactly it it's it's um for me it's it's this like I do especially with running where I assume the 99% of your listeners are not professional runners I think it's really different I think everything is different so that's another reason like I'm not telling women to like go off and quit their jobs right like I also have another job

39:09I just wrote a book like I made money off of that um uh so I technically am employed right now I'm just not working two jobs um and same with running like but like with running I've just always thought like what is this here like why do I I don't have to do this um and same with the other mother who run as listening to you like they don't have to do it either you have to want to do it like and I think that that and I think if you're really forcing something you it stops being something that you want to do and starts becoming something that you dread and that's a terrible way to go about your life and so I think quitting can really be this um again this recalibration to help you discover what you liked about whatever you have to like you have to quit now in the first place and I know that's the case for me like even when I was writing that Times article which is an adaptation of the chapter I was like oh I really enjoyed this like I was really surprised um which is kind of a sad thing to say because I used to love to write and like I think I write about this in the book but there was a period where I was like oh my god I'm just trying to fill up space now like what a

40:10depressing thing to do like working my job it's not like I was fully doing it from I mean obviously I needed money but like it wasn't that much money um like if I really was doing it for money I probably would have done something else um so it was like it's it's it's same with running like you have to want to do it um you have to feel that drive that like that momentum that uh like that essence that you that you get from something that you love and if you stop feeling that I I strongly think quitting is the way to get that back and and I love that it leads into a a thought in your book that I really resonated with which is um how not quitting when something is no longer worth it is a form on quitting on yourself yes yes um that I also feel really strongly um and I think women especially like I think that's why the um by that 2018 Boston Marathon essay that I

41:11wrote always bothered me is that like especially with the headline the idea that like men quit and women don't I was like actually women do quit like we quit all the time we just quit it ourselves like we just don't quit anyone else and so it's looking at it is not quitting like we'll finish the marathon but then we'll like eat pop tarts for like dinner and call it like a life um that's a form of quitting it's just a war of attrition and we're confusing survival with success and I think women really need to think hard about what we're enduring at and if that's the game we want to be in and moms in particular we'll let people chew over that idea as we take another brief sponsor break head is running shoes built from the ground up for women's biomechanics save 20 percent with code stay feisty at head is calm as a taller heavier woman I'm really hard on my athletic shoes so durability is super important to me so I was intrigued when my feisty teammates

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44:23and save 20 percent at tofosioptics dot com again get 20 percent off tofosi sunglasses using code feisty 2026 at ti f o s i optics dot com feisty 2026 at tofosioptics dot com last year when we announce amr was ending its run we heard from many of you who regretted never attending one of our retreats well thanks to amr joining forces with feisty media you get another go the first ever feisty running retreat is happening february fifth to eighth 2027 in austin texas many of the elements of previous retreats will be happening morning runs or walks yoga open water swimming learning sessions aqua robics pickleball and tasty meals plus we're adding in numerous feisty elements the most important feisty piece is the presence of saline yager host of the popular hit play not pause like on that podcast saline will be talking about the science of parimenopause and menopause in relatable digestible ways as if all this isn't fabulous enough we're convening for those four days and three nights in one

45:27of my absolutely favorite places austin texas every time i visit i never want to leave for all the details and to register click on the link in the show notes or visit live feisty dot com and click on the events tab that's li ve fe fe st y dot com and click on the events tab hope to see you in austin next february so lensee before the break you were talking about the 2018 boston marathon and you read about it in in the times it's you wrote a re-visited it in the in the book and of course the 2018 boston marathon was horrible it was raining sideways it was cold it was windy that's the finished times were the slowest times since the 1970s and as you said in the in original article in the book man dropped out at double of the rate of the previous year and women the quitting rates were just 12% and you mentioned earlier that that young women would come to say yeah i've got that on that article on my refrigerator and i love that idea and and yeah we can do hard things and it's

46:29you know it's the internalized propaganda of perseverance propaganda right like yes we can do hard things um and then it's like wait a minute on on the other hand wait a minute maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to quit a historically slow time and freaking freezing sideways reign um and yeah and uh should women take a cue about quitting for men yeah well so i mean what that's really interesting there is that it's not at all to cast aspersions on any of the women who finished that race like and i make it really clear in the article right and in the chapter that like the difference there is that the marathon there actually is a finish line but in life we can grind forever and i think i was not distinguishing between those two just realities um and i applaud the women that do this is more for the women that don't um who might need to hear that like the finish line is not going to arrive for you like this is not just going to abate and so the tendencies that might

47:30drive us to that finish line in the marathon we might assume that it the same scenario applies in our lives and it just doesn't um but i think the difference there is that it just really depends on your goal um so if your goal was to run really fast which like maybe and this is like this is where i bring this up like i think a lot more men like especially under stress and i i think research shows men go for all or nothing they take the boldest decisions um they go for all or nothing and women will just downshift and we will make it through and that so it really depends on what your goal is like if you think about the Boston marathon if your goal was to run really fast men or women alike they probably should have dropped out right and just like signed up for grammars and minnesota the next month and like called it a marathon um uh but if your goal was to finish the race because like it's the Boston marathon and it's awesome like then both men and women alike should have downshifted um but i but what i thought was so interesting is that i think especially when

48:35when something's really hard that primal instinct takes over um and i think that's where the analogy extends to the rest of our lives um because i think and i think motherhood as well especially for marathon runners who have this perseverance impulse that we spend our lives cultivating um we don't always see that the finish line isn't coming and in motherhood there is no finish line i think that's the whole point like you're a mother forever and it's up to you to figure out how to make the sustainable and also wonderful like yeah maybe not wonderful every day but as good as possible for yourself because theoretically you wanted this um and so it's like how do you how do you make this work for yourself um and i don't think we always ask ourselves those questions but it involves quitting something when i hear you talk about those women who's told you that they had the article on their refrigerator so they could remind themselves to me that is so wrapped up in what i thought about often reading your book about women's drive for perfection and i find that almost epidemic

49:36in particularly women 40 and under and just so i guess how do you see that drive for perfectionism and quitting kind of enmeshed with each other and absolutely i think that's a perfect question um that i have a complete answer to perfection is completion they are the same thing um anything less than completing the task is a failure and i know that because that's how i feel um and i still feel that if that makes sense um the book is me convincing myself that it's not that that it's not so and that i must um uh change this approach to my life um but it's not so simple it's just like writing a book um uh like i still have and dropped out of a marathon or a race like i don't want to um and i'm not even saying that you should all the time but i do think that we should think about it as not just an option but a good option much more often than we do especially if completion of whatever task is in front of us um and that like perfectionism that factors into completing that is eroding our ability to perform well either at the next race like i've been the

50:41kind of person that like there's a masochism tied up in this right where like i don't i can't be the only person that's like been in a race and been like oh your leg hurts like great you don't need it tomorrow like whatever like finish the race um and i just i don't think that that's that unusual um unless i'm just friends with crazy people but i don't think so um and i think that the world tells us to be like that um to kind of like get to the finish line finish it um and like pick yourself up afterwards and sure that's fun again if it's a marathon like that's recreational it's fun like odds are you're not putting yourself it i mean hopefully not putting yourself it's here like every time i was saying that to myself it wasn't actually usually not breaking my own bones um i mean sometimes i would get stress fractures um but i think there can be this masochistic element to it of like how much can i take and i'm telling people that especially as they get older like cut it out i get the reward it isn't waiting for you like moderate yourself

51:46yeah yeah so and there's also that identity trap about if we can no longer identify as runners then we worry about who we are and if folks are watching on youtube they can see me doing a lot of air quotes and that um can you talk a bit about that yeah so identity is built around consistency right um we're inclined to define ourselves in terms of rigid nouns rather than flexible verbs um and these nouns define us but eventually they can find us so it's like i run i'm a runner i paint i'm a painter uh i think you know i know i'm also not the only person there where it's like you feel like these nouns are something that you earn like how could they possibly become confining or like something that's bad for you um but i think we really do want to think of ourselves in terms of verbs like i say in the book it's it's like city Crawford once at this in an interview it's not i'm a model it's i modeled um and that allowed her to take everything that went into the action of

52:48modeling extraordinarily well as she did and apply it to her next act as she turned herself into a groundbreaking business woman woman and i think that's something that we need to think about more it's like and it's something that i have been thinking about a lot for myself it's like the qualities that made me like go to my job and like have things that you know look good on a resume or um the qualities that led me to be a good runner like these like i'm in no way and some ways i'm almost like i'm happy to i love running and that i can do it when i want to and i don't have to when i don't want to but that's again because it's a verb right like i don't feel like i have to go to a party and tell people i'm a runner um i actually really chafed in writing my bio for this reason i've got don't you know i have a whole chapter on how we're not supposed to like say lindsey kraus is this this and this um it's like i'm like no we're trying to move away from that um unfortunately the publishing world doesn't work like that but um and i say this in the book it's like the world encourages us and in some ways kind of forces us to do this to ourselves but we don't have to

53:48mentally and if we um if we play these mind games for ourselves it can be freeing to um not only not be bereft when those things aren't available to us and we then you know really fight the either ending or the cessation of our relationship with the sport at least for like the period that we need to cease it um uh but it could also just make it hard to decide what's next um and i think if we just say like look i have these values i have these qualities i can apply them to some other pursuit um the nouns won't constrain us quite the same way um well i love that you came back to nouns and verbs with uh conversation with three writers so uh yeah exactly that's always i was i don't i don't think i'm the only person that thinks this way but it's always bothered me that like people are like what are you what do you do or none they don't say what do you do they say what are you like who are you um or they say this about somebody else and i'm like oh i wonder what you say about me um uh and yeah it's like i want i i just like to kind of just i think that's like

54:56when i say that like quitting is freedom um i'm not saying like quitting is like this chance to go like run off and like become a digital nomad somewhere unless that's something that you're desperate to do it's the freedom to define who you are what you want to do how you want to do it um and kind of i guess for sake some of the constraints that the world will put on us because it's easier for the world but bad for us bad for ourselves well Lindsay i hope all the those women that we keep harcaning back to with your article on the refrigerator i hope they find your book and read it because it really is great and uh can expand people's lives so so thanks so much for joining us thank you thanks so much for having me absolutely just chat with you but that was a very intriguing conversation and and i think uh not just the young women uh uh uh who who kept her article but many women will enjoy reading this book it's full of case studies and research and also personal storytelling and and big surprise she's a really good writer

56:00right exactly uh all right this podcast is a production of another mother runner in feisty media and have you heard we are doing a feisty running retreat in fabulous austin texas next february i am so excited this four day three night getaway will feature all the elements that made AMR retreats so great like that one you mentioned in like classed dish in the top of the show uh morning runs pickleball instruction aqua robics yoga expert sessions tasty group dinners plus some excellent feisty additions such as slain yager host of the hit play not pause podcast talking about hormones and parimenta pause and metapause and oh yeah swim sessions at one of my other athletic happy places barton springs pool uh as i said i'm just really really excited for this event find all the details at live feisty.com and click on the events tab again that's live fe fe is ty.com and that link is always in our show notes stay feisty