The Chris Voss Show Podcast – Council Ford Insurrection: The Second Amendment 2043-2063 by J.Thomas Bowne JD

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Anyway, amazing man on the show, we're going to talk to him about his book called,

Council Ford Insurrection, the Second Amendment, 2043 to 2063 out on paperback and other variants on May 12th, 2025.

Jay Thomas Brown, JD, joins us on the show. Welcome to show Thomas Howard.

I'm doing great. Thank you.

Thank you and thanks for having us for being here.

Give us comms, websites, any place on the inner web you want people to find you.

Sure. If you want to find me, the best way to do it is to get the on-trader, the whole business is just to Google Council Ford Insurrection, the Second Amendment, 2043 to 2063, and you'll get 50 different references there.

All right. Give us a 30,000 overview of what the book is on.

What the book is about is, as you can tell, it's from this title.

It's about an insurrection in a mythical town, Council Ford. It occurs in 2043, slightly into the future.

And the setting for the insurrection is where the state, which is this fictional middle state called middle state, enacted a gun control law, which was ruled to be constitutional by the Supreme Court of the United States.

And coincidentally with that, the local powers to be decided that they wanted to build a data center in town.

This is a rural town, only 22,000 people. Some of the locals realize that if they do this, this is going to destroy our traditional way of life.

The population is going to cripple, quadruple, will no longer be under local control with respect to our guns because of the increase in population.

And we just don't want to do it. We want to stop the city council from enacting it.

And so they begin to organize and they decided that when the city council met some six weeks or six months after the group began to form, they were going to go in and they were going to demonstrate.

They were going to force their way in. They were going to stop the thing, let the city council know that we don't want this, hopefully to delay it enough and then just derail the whole thing.

That's what they decided to do. And what happened was and that they really didn't anticipate was that a national militia organization knowing what their position was.

The fact that they were really opposed to the new gun control law came in and said, we're going to help you out.

And so the whole thing unwinds over or upwinds, if you will, over a period of months until the city council meeting finally comes up.

And the national militia organization gives reinforcements and so forth.

In the meantime, however, law enforcement is not is not quiet about this.

They understand that violence is brewing in the city. And this is all about how that builds up the forces against and the forces in favor of the gun control statute and the built building of the hub, which is the data control center.

That's that's kind of the the the shorthand of it. It's very complicated.

This is an historic community. It's got a big background that you need to understand to understand the whole thing.

You have to read the book to get that, but that's not what you need to have for the overview.

You were you've been a South Southern California native and attorney with 30 years of experience litigation estate planning and trust administration.

When did you start writing books?

I started in 2017 and I wrote the antecedent of this book, which is called the American gun controversy.

Second amendment friendly solutions to save lives.

And at that point, my practice was beginning to wind down. I had some time to write a book.

There had been some important decisions which construed the meaning of the second amendment at that time.

I decided I'd write a book and try to come up with some ideas that might pass muster with the law in order to save a lot of lives.

And that's why I wrote that I wrote that book and it all started with me doing some research, which was very interesting, very interesting results.

Came up with the idea that the gun problem is it's what's called a wicked problem.

That's a term of birth. You can you can just go go to Google and type in what is a wicked problem.

And you'll find out that it's a term of art. A wicked problem is not an evil problem.

But a problem is like a wicked split finger fastball that your local pictures throws.

Hard to figure out hard to combat hard to figure out what to do with.

And so I started researching and I ran into a guy who was a Brigadier retired Brigadier with the Australian military.

And he had written a really really good article called the American gun dilemma.

And that was published in 2014 in the Quadrant magazine.

And he said, you know, this is a big problems Americans need to think a lot about it.

And his his kickoff on the whole thing was that in 2008, the Supreme Court handed down a decision called DC versus Heller, which changed what I think most people believe the second of them it means.

The second amendment says they well regulated militia being necessary for the security of a free state that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

That's what it says well regulated militia in the Heller case.

They said, no, nothing to do with the militia. This just recognizes an individual right to keep and bear arms.

And that and that resulted in a real revolution in gun law and understanding of gun law.

It's an individual right not just which you possess so that you can serve with the militia to protect the country.

No, not that at all.

And as a matter of fact, as it devolved over the years, the understanding of the second amendment by most the most rabid gun control people came to a completely different meaning.

And it's what I call the second amendment fantasy.

And that is that the real purpose of the second amendment is to enable people to throw off tyranny if they don't like what the government is doing to rebel against the government.

And there is no legal justification for that at all. It is not legal to rebel against the government.

And so in the long part of it, by the time I got done with this current book, I was trying to write so I could show people what happens when people are under the throw of the second amendment, the second amendment fantasy.

Nothing but chaos can result.

Oh, wow, yeah.

Nothing but chaos.

So that was the reason, what was the proponent?

I mean, I imagine you wrote a lot as a attorney and all that.

What was the proponent behind the writing of this book and publishing your first book, actually?

The first book was, you know, the dedication in the dedication of the book, which I've got right here, I had it right here.

Oh, here it is. Yeah, this is this is the first upside down first book right here.

And in the dedication, I said that this book is dedicated to the lives it hopes its ideas will save.

If it weren't for that, this book would not have been written.

And so I came up with a number of ideas in that book, which I did I wrote it for my own pleasure and some I didn't do anything to promote it.

I wrote it for my own pleasure.

I hired a professional review on it.

One of the things that they didn't like about it was it's it read like it been written by a lawyer.

Hmm.

Who wants to read what's been written by a lawyer is pretty pretty dry.

You know, it was written by a lawyer. I gathered facts. I gathered the legal authorities.

I derived conclusions and then go from there and then build on it.

And that's what that was about.

So I wanted to save lives and in the in council for an insurrection, which is this book here.

This is the book we're talking about.

You notice the peaceful river scene, even though it's an insurrection.

This is a Ford council. Ford is is a mythical location.

This is a Ford in the 12 me river in in Yosemite National Park.

It's only picture I had about four. I thought that's as good as anything.

So I wrote this book and let's see what I said in the dedication of this book.

This book is dedicated to imagining a future where the second amendment is no longer a hot button issue.

It suggests a future for gun ownership in America that will not be pleasing for the extremes of the current view.

On guns in America, one extreme believes that the more guns America's keep the better.

The other extreme believes we would be better off with no guns at all.

And I mean, there are those are the extremes.

Yeah.

And the people that believe more guns are better, they also believe that any effort.

I mean, they they will write out to you on all their literature.

Any gun control is a violation of the second amendment.

Yeah.

The second, you know, the right to keep it there are shall not be infringed.

I mean, what don't you understand about shall not be infringed?

So anything is an infringement.

They believe that all measures toward controlling guns,

limiting casualties, all that, put us all on a slippery slope.

We're a pretty soon.

The government will have all the guns.

The citizens won't have any and we're going to be subject to the government.

We won't be able to fight back now.

That's just not my view of how America works.

Yeah.

And my citizens groups in Council Ford, they invented counter slogans.

One was with guns, we are citizens without them, we are subjects.

You will read that very quote throughout the literature of the pro-gun people.

With guns, we are citizens, we are citizens without them, we are subjects.

The counter citizens group in Council Ford came up with a simpler one,

ballots not bullets.

They voted, they voted in the city council.

The city council wanted to approve this data center that the state government had enacted

through its legal representatives, the new gun control law.

It's those ballots and not the threat that people are going to bring guns to the table

to try to change things.

That's what it is.

It's two opposing viewpoints.

And they're very sharply highlighted in this book.

So do you hope through the book to basically create discussion on this

or maybe give people some different ways of looking at stuff and things?

I want to create discussion about it.

The original article that got me going on the whole thing, which was the American gun control dilemma,

what the author of that says was Americans need to put a lot of thought into this.

And there's no thought going into a lot of this.

The people that are pro-gunned against any kind of regulation again,

they're not really thinking about it.

They just say, I've got my rights and I want to protect it, that's it.

What I say is that simple things could be done that will save thousands and thousands of lives per year.

And in the American gun controversy, the first I suggest is specific provisions.

I intentionally was a little bit vague about exactly how it would go in council forward.

Because I wanted people to ask questions and I wanted to provoke thought about how we can come to grips with this whole situation.

I mean, I can talk longer than we've got to listen on this, Chris.

We want people to go by the book.

So do you foresee further books that you maybe are going to put out maybe in the same venue or the same characters or like a series?

Absolutely. And one of them is already in manuscript form.

And so I've got something for anybody that wants to buy the book to look for.

There's a character that you, one of the first characters you meet in the book is named Sam Buford.

Sam Buford is a studded, bitter, profane man who early on joins the organization of the citizen's group to oppose the hub.

He's in the local hangout, the big sky cafe, he rips the poster down off the window, he stamps on it.

He says, all I know, if this hub is built, my life, my way of life is over.

And then he joins and offers support during the entire organization.

But at the very end, at the very, very end, Sam changes his mind.

And he pulls the rug out underneath the primary organizer of this of the of the militia group.

He's not going to support them anymore. And you know what? They're, they're neighbors, they're neighboring ranchers.

They have ranches that are, you know, 25,000 acres each.

And they both respect one another and they ended that on a friendly basis.

But Sam had changed his mind.

Why? Because he realized that his land was now going to become a lot more valuable once the hub was built.

He was right on the main highway. He'd already gotten a couple of sales at land.

He decided to change things and it changed his life.

So the second book following this one, which is staged in Council Ford, is called Sam, the redemption of Sam Buford.

And it's about how he redeemed himself. But the full title is actually assignment, the redemption of Sam Buford.

What is the assignment? The sheriff called Jim Mulvaney, who was a really interesting character.

He's a character that goes through this entire book. He was a combat-hearted, decorated, marine, first lieutenant.

But he just couldn't take me away from his family anymore.

And frankly, the danger of combat, which he was inconsiderably, and he decided to move to a quiet rural area and work for the sheriff.

And he did that. He did that. And the sheriff said, listen, Jim, you are way overqualified for this job.

I mean, I want you to move to this community. As Jim Mulvaney got installed in the community and his guidance and eventually command of the forces on one side in Council Ford insurrection.

And then later on in the Sam Buford book, he goes through the entire thing. He's a good judge of situations. He's a good judge of men.

And he guides the whole thing all the way through. He's the backbone of the book, Sam, Jim Mulvaney is.

And we've got many, many other interesting characters. Council Ford itself is an interesting place, historic place.

And in the book, it says that it got on the map back right after the Civil War when there was a big massacre with Union troops massacring a lot of Indians.

And that was called the Council Ford insurrection. That got Council Ford on the map. And it also pacified the area and after where the area could begin to develop.

And then I traced the entire history of Council Ford up until the present and then we go from there. It's interesting to me. I made it up.

Did you base the characters or maybe some scenarios that you came in contact with your, you know, with your journeys on attorney did some of that.

I think that I think that all of the characters are malgum of the many people that I have known and people that I've talked to that I've interviewed.

Among other things in preparation for the first book, I interviewed quite a few law enforcement people. I interviewed quite a few people who have been in the military.

There's not in the military, but also in actual combat. I interviewed those people and I interviewed many just regular citizens who were either on the side of having as many guns as possible or on the on the side that all guns are going to be thrown into the ocean.

I got a lot, I got a lot of public opinion on all of this stuff. And I think that I think that I kind of built the book with Jim Alvady as a backbone of it because of his of his combat experience, which I detail a little bit in there.

And then at the end, at the very, very end, Jim was not yet the sheriff himself, but the sheriff was so stressed out by as the as the insurrection and the gunfire and the fires and the explosion begin to develop the sheriff had a heart attack.

In advance, he had appointed Jim Alvady with the agreement of the state guard and all the citizens groups on there that Jim was going to be in command of their forces because they knew that they had a group of about 150 armed men that were going to try to interrupt the city council.

And in fact, they did force their way into the courthouse and they had they had to they had to basically damage the courthouse to get them out. And they got the city council out of there by the hair of their change and chins out of a back tunnel.

Oh, wow.

And it was it was kind of exciting, but Jim Alvady was a charge of that whole thing. And then eventually in my Sam Buford book, once again, Jim is put in a position where he has to lay siege to some very undesirable characters who had come to would come to council Ford attempting to determine how they might cut in to the defeat that they suffered in the council Ford insurrection.

And Jim Alvady is right in the middle of that whole thing. And he's and he and he enlists Sam Buford to help him. And why he did that Sam being the kind of guy he was where he first met him and how Sam Buford ended up being who he is is a part of that book. I really enjoyed that book. I enjoyed enjoyed writing that book.

So great stuff. Good stuff. Do you do you foresee? You know, it turns evidently into a bit of a conflict. We normally don't give away the middle and the ending of the book because you know, people need to buy and read it.

It's a D D. There's a little bit of conflict to the happens almost like an insurrection or sort of situation. You know, can you talk about that or do we give him too much away?

Sure. I mean, needless to say, the stage was set when the city council meeting was set months in advance. They knew about it, months in advance.

And the sheriff also knew there was going to be problems. So he took everybody that he had put them on duty. And and he his deputies escorted the city council into the courthouse.

And behind and around them, the insurrection list forced their way in. So now you've got the city council inside the building with the insurrection list.

What did they meet in there? There was a line of sheriff's deputies with orders from the sheriff to keep them out.

And they all had their guns drawn. And who knows who ever who knows who ever fired the first shot?

Oh, so there was some shots fired shots fired. And in the end, Chris 25 Americans were dead.

Oh, and the courthouse was severely damaged. And you know, it's it's it's it's it's but to see how it all comes together how all the citizens groups come together and how it's all resolved is what you're going to have to read the book to find out.

Oh, did you did you get any ideas from the January 6th that should that happen there? Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I mean, because January 6th, that was labeled an insurrection, right?

And and I must say that that that label, which was attached to these demonstrators attempting to force their way into the Capitol building as an indirect insurrection, that's where the word insurrection came from in the title of this book.

It's it's the core of the whole thing. So I had to figure out how can I how can I write a book which is plausible and entertaining with in an interesting locale with characters that people will care about.

How can I put this all together to to make a fiction book because I've never written a fiction book. I've written thousands upon thousands of pages of nonfiction stuff.

And that's what lawyers do. Lawyers don't engage in fiction, Chris. They just try to put their own spin on things, of course, but it's all got to be based on facts. In this case, I made this all up.

And it was a different experience. And I must say that it was an interesting experience. Not only did I want to get my messages across about some ideas that might help with the gun casualties, but I also wanted to learn how to write a good fiction book that people would want to say.

Yeah, I've got a book right. You see this. This is my hand or is anyway on writing. And this is this is just excerpts a couple hundred pages of excerpts from him. He weighs own work talking about how he how he tackles how he tackled the issues of writing all of the novels that he wrote.

Well, and I remember writing something a reading something a while back about him. He waited. Nowadays, he may wait would never have been published.

I think I heard those very.

And yet again, I mean, as far as an American author, he's right on the tip of everybody's tongue. So his spare way of coming up with telling descriptions of characters and circumstances was just really interesting to me.

I learned a lot from writing this, this Council Ford book. And I think in the Sam Buford book, I think my technique is improved. So maybe my second fiction book will get better literary reviews than the first, but the Sam Buford book still it carries my message through in places.

It also has exciting places. It's got mystery. It's got interesting new characters in it beyond Council Ford and interesting new venues.

You know, so I think I think it might be a winner. I'm kind of interested in it. But I've spent recently after I did the Chris Voss interview, which you may have seen, I got a whole bunch of contacts about this and ended up with you.

And that's all that's been taking a lot of time because I'm still practicing a little bit of law. I've got a responsibility to my clients and and the thing is that when you're practicing law, you're now you're practicing with real bullets. Yeah, right in the book.

It's not necessarily real bullets is something for your own entertainment. So if you don't get the chapter perfectly right that your client is going on death row with a book.

So yeah, firstly, I've never had I've never had a death penalty case happen. I originally did have a murder case. And you know that turned okay, turned out okay for my client. She was the mother of a child that had died at the hand of the hands of others.

It was a very, a very sad case. And you know, I went to a reoctopsy of the child. There's a question about his cause of death. It was complicated. And you're you're just thinking that this thing is just electric with with emotion and so forth as as most I mean for everybody that ends up in court.

They are severely emotionally engaged in it. They really are. It's a sense situation.

It involves loss, you know, civil court financial loss, marital court or family court, I guess you call it, you know, loss of, I don't know, two people suffering power of children.

They're their kids and then of course, you know, criminal court, you know, you're freedom is online, possibly.

Sure. And a lot of what you deal with, you know, it involves financial catastrophe of businesses.

You know, somebody's made a mistake and somebody got electrocuted on the job or somebody wasn't looking where they were going and they ended up with a head on collision.

And so there's tremendous financial loss that that you have to either seek compensation for or to protect your client from having to pay as much as the other side of life.

It's it's it's a long story, but it is playing with practicing laws playing with real bullets.

Yeah, yeah, playing with real bullets throwing the fire and running like hell.

So as we go out, is there any consulting coaching or any of that sort of thing that you do that you help other people or sometimes if there's will do readers that go out to bookstores and different things, so they easy promote that as well.

I've got the one thing in that vein that I've got going right now, I'm going to be at the Los Angeles Book Festival in in April. It's put on by the Los Angeles Times. It's going to be at the USA campus.

And that's that's the big book show in our area. And it is fairly close to where my son lives. It's going to be nice to go there. I got an hour. I'll be talking to you know dozens of people. I may be speaking to groups to I'm going to do that.

And the other thing that I'm doing Chris is that I'm hiring an ad, which will be played in Times Square.

22 times they're going to hear a 15 second video, which gives gives a very condensed version of what the book is about.

But this Times Square billboard is like 30 feet by 50 feet. I've never seen it myself seeing pictures of it. But apparently they say that, you know, 400,000 people are in Times Square every every day.

I mean, we'll see the other thing that I'm doing is that I was contacted by a film agent in New York City who thinks that my book has got potential for a film.

What we're doing right now is with their help they referred me to a company that can produce a short video of five to 10 minutes, which will demonstrate to film producers about how this book could be chained, could be could be adopted for a movie.

And using that proof of concept video along with their own analysis, which I thought was I was impressed by their analysis of the book.

They intend to take it out to film producers and see if they can get somebody to look at it.

You know, that's it. And you know, it's just to tie a bow on that one. When I had my interview with Chris Voss, not no, your Chris Voss or God's say what I had, when I had my interview with Logan Crawford.

He asked me a question that I wasn't prepared for the question, but you know, I answered it correctly. He says, have you ever considered making your book into a film?

Yeah.

And I said, Logan, making a book into a film is an extremely big subject, which is true. I mean, you can't just take a book and make it into a film. You have to have a screenplay.

Films are extremely expensive to produce. They're a risky business and so forth.

And I wasn't really willing to put any of my money into developing it in the film, but this company in New York City, they'll get paid only if they can put me into a film deal with a producer.

Oh, wow.

And so I get to I retain control of the negotiations. I make my own deal. Usually it starts out with somebody buying an option. And then if they exercise the option, then it turned it turned into a film.

You know, and it can it can earn enough money for me to pay for the money that I put into this, but I know I certainly don't object at all to what what I put into this.

You know, for your interview for all the other promotional things I've done, because it's a lot of fun for me.

Oh, yeah.

It's great to find something that you really enjoy and it matters to you. I mean, finding something that's kind of your purpose and life is there.

Do you hope that people who read the book, they come away with, they come away with an appreciation for the subject matter and maybe will give some more deeper thought to, you know, guns and gun regulation, etc.

I think so. I think so. I think so. I hope so. I mean, there's about 45,000 people a year get killed by guns in the United States about the same casualties as with automobiles.

automobiles and guns are two different subjects automobiles are highly regulated and so forth. Guns not so much. It's just a patchwork and a lot more thought needs to be put into what's the best way to cope with all the emotions on both sides and attitudes toward guns.

Yeah, we definitely need to have a stable conversation that has some more logic and reason instead of a lot of emotion behind it.

It's interesting to me, you know, we're in the situation that we're in now with what's going on with their government that seems to be shaking a lot of authoritarian and fascist stuff.

If you've studied enough, we've had hundreds of authors talk about this on the show. But yeah, it seems like the people who have the guns aren't really that interested in actually utilizing that.

That to give they were given from the thing, but I mean, what would it's kind of an interesting discussion to you because I mean, what would you do?

I mean, the, you know, you're seeing the bombing and the things that we can do in Iran and Venezuela without even getting our pilots in danger for the most part, I guess.

I'm not familiar with the full rollout, but you know, you see how we can bomb things from 500 million miles up in the air and you know, things like that.

I mean, what goods, I mean, if you have, I don't know, supposed a really nice M16.

Well, what good a second to do.

What are you going to do exactly?

We took out that I told a committee.

You know, one of the threads of discussion about the second amendment is that when the founding fathers enacted the second amendment, they didn't understand that guns would become the kind of machines that they are now.

Must have got a ram that ball down the barrel takes you 45 seconds to fire and reload and fire reload.

Now you can, you can squeeze off 30 rounds in 30 seconds or less.

These are completely different things, but these guns aren't going to do any good.

The people that say that there are, there are protection against tyranny, individual guns.

It's a fantasy to think that.

It's a fantasy to think that.

I mean, the Ukrainian war is a perfect example of that.

You know that a relatively small percentage of all of the injuries caused in the Ukraine war, and I read an article by a medic, very few from gunshots.

They're all done by drones or artillery.

I mean, that's the way that modern warfare works nowadays.

The fantasy that you can't forbid me from having a 30 round clip for my assault rifle.

That, you know, that it's an infringement of my right, my second amendment right, to forbid me from having that multi-round outfit.

It's ridiculous.

You can have 30 rounds, you're 10,000 rounds in your individual gun, and you're not going to overthrow the government with it.

That's for sure.

I mean, the kind of the interesting arguments of that are wild.

I mean, because I mean, technically, if you have unlimited, if the Constitution should have unlimited access to guns,

let's just give you tanks and nuclear bombs and bazookas and shit.

Where's the limit?

If you read into the literature enough in some of the social sites, some people assert that it would be okay to have an airplane or a nuclear bomb or an aircraft.

Of course, you have a hard time affording it, wouldn't you?

What can go wrong, though?

I mean, but there's people that have money that would probably, I don't know, I can see some billionaires these days.

They're building bunkers so they can avoid being eaten by the rich, evidently.

And the guillotine is coming in the new French-American revolution.

They probably buy a settle-

People that subscribe to the Second Amendment fantasy, they don't realize it, but that's the basis for chaos.

Nothing but chaos.

Thomas Hobbes told us that in the state of nature, life was nasty, brutish, and short.

And if everybody had their own gun and their gun was their best friend and that was the only thing they had to rely upon for their security,

I mean, that would be the state of nature, that's for sure.

Yes, I mean, if you had complete chaos and anarchy and collapse of the government and collapse of police forces, you know, you had all that stuff going.

Yeah, gun would probably help.

But I mean, how, when is that going to happen?

I don't see the US government going anyway anytime soon.

I mean, here they file bankruptcy or whatever you want to believe that they might be coming to solve it, you know, from whatever bullshit.

You know, I can print money all day long.

And I mean, what are you going to do?

Fun is fun.

As we go out, give people a final pitch out to pick up your book, tell them where.com, they can go to it and all that good stuff.

Oh, sure.

Like I said at the onset, the best, the best on trade to the work is taking a look at Google, Council for an Insurrection, the Second Amendment, 2043, 2063.

And you will get many, many, many avenues to the book reviews, how to buy the book, et cetera, et cetera.

That's the best way to do it.

Thank you very much for coming to the show. We really appreciate it, man.

Yeah, this is a very interesting subject.

I can tell that you have an inclination toward being interested in it also.

Yeah.

It's part of the constitution and stuff, you know?

Yeah, I'd like to get a lot of people need to put a lot more real thought into this than they have in this.

And they have in the past.

And I want to provoke them to do that.

They're definitely talking about these things and talking about these issues and the logic and reasons sort of ways is definitely something that way more need to do more Americans.

So thank you very much for coming to the show. Tom, we really appreciate it.

Sure. You guys read the book, get the book, tell me what you think.

Okay.

We're going to put it up where we find books are sold.

It's called Council Ford Insurrection, the second amendment, 2043 through 2063.

I wonder if it'll be alive by then. That'll be interesting.

May 12, 2025.

By the way, the I wonder if I'll be alive.

Does the title of the book just want to make that clear?

Oh, if we're alive to celebrate the first anniversary of the book, let's hope so.

I'm planning to actually pass May 12, 2026.

So I was actually referring to 2043.

But I was like, I want to see your book comes to fruition.

I mean, I'm 81 years old right now.

So I'll hold how much longer I've got.

But you know, you got a few years on me, Chris.

We might have started World War three this week with our hands.

Maybe we will.

We don't want to celebrate.

We make it to next year.

I know.

I know.

Okay.

Wonderful conversation.

Okay. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Tom.

Thanks for being on the show.

Thanks for joining us for tuning in.

Go to goodreads.com.

Fortress, Chris Voss.

LinkedIn.com.

Fortress, Chris Voss.

Chris Voss won on the TikTok and in all those crazy places.

And that'd be good to each other.

Stay safe.

We'll see you next week.

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