The Duggar Family, the System Behind Them, and the Psychology of All of It — Complete 3-Part Series With Shavaun Scott

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Tony Brusky and Robin Green.

In a very long conversation about the IBLP and the Duggers and everything in the ecosystem,

that surrounds it. And to do just that, one of our favorite guests of Robin and myself,

Shavan Scott is with the psychotherapist and author to help us break all of this down.

You have such a unique insight into a world like this because you grew up in a fundamentalist

religious system. And by the way, if you want to learn about Shavan's experiences in that,

here's your book, Nightbird. Very, very powerful and very raw. I do highly suggest checking

that out. When you look at what the IBLP was actually teaching the total parental authority,

the submission doctrine, and you heard the news this week of these new charges that have come out.

What came to your mind? What do you recognize, Shavan, when you hear these stories that most people

watching this are missingly just doesn't come to their mind? It's an extreme cult. I heard about

it when I was a kid growing up and particular faith churches that I was involved in were extreme

and were cult-like. But this was above and beyond. The homeschooling, the dressing kids alike,

this television show, which I never watched because, frankly, all this stuff just made my skin

crawl. But it's a cult. With total psychological control, obedience equals holiness, it's black and white

thinking, you know, you either do it our way or you're on satan side. And so it's based upon fear,

raising kids in this really restrictive environment where they have no voice. They never question

authority. Thinking is dangerous. And the outside world is they're completely cut off from it. So

it's incredibly disruptive to normal child development. Shavan, you brought up a really powerful

word there that a few of our listeners tuned into the last couple days. That's the homeschooling

aspect of it. And I'd love for you to kind of talk about the homeschooling aspect because homeschooling,

there's homeschooling, then there's indoctrination. And that's what this is really so, could you

explore for us what kind of homeschooling slash indoctrination that was kind of being exposed to here

and also, you know, maybe in your own experience as well? And I want to caveat real quick. We're not,

we're not, you know, pooing homeschooling as a whole. That's why I want people to. That's why I want

to go down this road. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, between homeschooling. There's a big difference.

Yeah, education and then indoctrination, big difference between education and indoctrination.

Yes, it's an excellent point because when my kids were little in California, a lot of people

were homeschooling. And it was looked at as a way to give kids a more customized experience.

People still took their kids to activities to museums. They got together with other families.

So it wasn't this motivation to keep them pure and to keep them obedient. And so yes,

you're talking about entirely different families with entirely different motives. It can be done

in a very benign, even healthy way. But in this case, I guarantee you, the kids were drilled on the

Bible, the Bible, the Bible. And there's a whole curriculum put out for Christian homeschoolers,

which may have something called science, but it's basically just regurgitating the

Bible and calling it science. Everything is based upon their interpretation of scripture. So

very different. I want to, you know, when people watch this television show, the 19 kids

encountering or whatever incarnation of it, it was in its season when it ran for 10 years on TLC.

So many people watch this show and they found it, they found something warm and fuzzy about it.

I think a lot of us were like, it was nails on a chalkboard. It was creepy. It was weird. It felt

odd. It felt off. But for so many people, and I remember watching, like good-hearted people,

people that were not, were not cult members, that were not abusive to their families,

that were not horrible individuals, they looked at it. And the way it was portrayed,

obviously, we saw the very best version of them on the television show. There wasn't like,

and now what's going on behind those doors? It was very much, you know, this is, look at this.

This isn't this cute. Just like sometimes when people, you know, stop at the Amish pie stand,

isn't this cute? Isn't this lovely? You have no, you have zero control over your own life,

but these pies are delicious. It felt like that to a certain extent. Why do you think it is?

Why did so many people eat up the doggers and what was clearly very much a coercively controlled

lifestyle? People found it as being very, very homie and colloquial.

Yeah, it really is a mystery to me. I should find some of these episodes and go back and do

an analysis of the careful editing that went on, because we know, I mean, lots of evidence,

kids raised in fear, where their ability to think is stamped out. They do not develop normally,

and they end up with a lot of anxiety and depression and relationship problems. But obviously,

that was hidden. And if this was presented as some kind of an ideal, people must have been inspired

to copy aspects of it or at least try. And I think that's insidious.

Yeah, the fear factor is major, because so I've just about finished the book that Jill

Dougherbrough and as well as the Shiny Happy People series on Amazon Prime. And there's some really

striking things in here about the education system, about like, and again, this is just quoting from

this, not my opinion. These are just quotes from people that are in that system saying that the

largest amount of math they were taught was fractions, because that's the only thing they needed to be

taught in order to cook was fractions. And then Jill herself and others, the fear they had of

of creating a sin as defined by IBLP, they had nightmares of burning in hell. I mean,

the fear factor was so massive at such a young age for that control, because it is really a

control aspect of absolutely everything. And I identify with that one as a child. I remember by

age five, I had definitely an anxiety disorder from all of it. And laying awake at night,

imagining hell. And I had terrible insomnia. And stuff that I was kind of wired for anxiety.

And it still affects me to this day. How do you, how do you talk yourself out of this automatic

thinking that you go into that there's this force that's going to punish you by that? It's horrible

for kids. I hear you. You obviously grew up in a much more extreme religious environment than I

did. I grew up in a religious environment as well. I grew up Lutheran. You know, I mean,

they're good people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for the most part, you know, they're harmless. You

know, they they they make fish in the basement of the church and they're I mean, they're really

for the most part not not bad, but there there are in any group of of religious folks or some that

are more extreme than others. But there's also a lot of things that go on. And I don't know that

this is what is going on today in the Wisconsin Synod or Missouri Synod Lutheran churches.

Those are the two that I had been part of as a child. But there there were so many things that

that were just second nature that they just did with the kids. They just told the kids that were

part of the teachings, the Sunday schools, the daily lessons, all that that were just, well,

this is this is what we teach. And nobody thought anything weird of it. I mean, I remember coloring

books. I would love to try and get my hands on some of the coloring books from the 70s and 80s

that they gave kids and these these things. I remember like drawing Saul's wife turning into a

pillar of salt as they ran away from Sodom and Gomorrah. And you're like literally drawing the

fire. And like, can I borrow the blue? I think like kind of a light blue might be appropriate for

Saul's wife that just turned into a pillar of salt. Well, why did you turn? Cause she looked back.

She did she had the horrible sin of looking back at the destruction that they were running from.

And because God said, don't, well, guess what? You're a salt lick now. I mean, this is the

shit that they they taught children. I mean, I know it's in the Bible that way. But they the the

indoctrination of this fear, you know, in kind of a happy, go lucky way. Cause you're coloring this

and then five minutes later, oh, animal cracker time.

Well, they weaponized religion. Yes, completely. And it's not just the extreme groups like the

IBLP that do these sort of things. This was this is just mainstream little Lutheran church in

the neighborhood that, you know, and nobody thought anything weird of it. The parents didn't

think anything weird of it. And I don't blame them because everybody we've been indoctrinated

into this sort of a world. But, but it's like every religion to a certain extent or every

version of of whatever you have, they they go to the death and destruction and the fear

factors so earlier, at least they used to for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. With the young children,

the damage that that must do. Can you speak to that? Well, the the one that used to torment me

was Jacob. I may get the Old Testament names mixed up, even though at one time I could have told

you all of them. I get a mix of now too. Jacob, who was to prove his love by God by murdering

sacrificing his son? Oh, yeah. That's the five time. I've done the coloring page on that.

Yeah. He was on the altar, laid him down on the altar and had the knife ready and then the angel

stopped him and said, okay, you don't have to do it. You prove in your loyalty here. I was like,

who could I kill? What if I were in that position? What if I, you know, I were the one that was

going to be sacrificed. And that just horrified me. Talk about, I mean, if they would just stick

with Jesus in the New Testament, right? Well, what kind of, I mean, if you're an adult and you're

trying to understand the story and the greater, bigger, 10,000 foot or 100,000 foot overview lesson

of these parables, an adult mind can understand, I mean, even though a lot of it's pretty wonky,

you can kind of get, oh, okay, I kind of get the point they're trying to make here. But at seven,

you're just like, oh, he's going to kill his kid and he's waiting for the angel to say, stop.

You know, it's, the kids aren't going to get it. But they seem to miss that children aren't

going to understand this shit and they take it all way too literal. Or they doing it on purpose

because again, it goes to control and fear, which be kind of part of the indoctrination. You know,

what was really striking, you know, in the series and learning about this was the authority

and how that authority works in that. And, you know, Tony put up the graphic for a number of days,

you know, the umbrellas of authority. But the infallibility of authority is where they gain

their control. And because I was really thinking about this. So here's Jill, the oldest daughter in

the Dougher family. How did she come to break from this? And so this is going to be, this

leads my question for Shivon. She was able to break, again, no cycle analyst on my side. But what

it happened was she saw a chink in her father's armor when he deceived her. Intentionally,

the day before she got married and she, and he connived her into signing the contract that obligated

her in her entire life. Photographs of the birth, delivery, wedding, everything without compensation

except to the father for five years. And so he, he deceived her. And so when she finally,

this comes to light and discovers this, that's the chink that said, oh my god, she didn't think

this consciously. But this is where the chink happened. The authority is valuable. And then the

whole thing started crumbling. So without that, how does someone recognize internally, if they even

can, that this system is broken? Yeah. Yeah. At some point, many people who are raised under this

kind of religious system, they start to develop critical thinking skills. And a light bulb comes

on. Something goes too far for them. Now, that doesn't happen for everybody. And some people

just grow up and replicate the pattern. But I, I know for me, the light bulb started coming on

for me at about 18. And that was the, the group I was involved in was big into face healing. And

if, if you had faith, you would be healed. If you didn't have faith, you wouldn't. So if somebody

died or had a child that died, it was their fault. And this started to not add up to me. That,

that was a line that went too far. And then of course, my mother, when I was 16,

died of cancer. And we were all praying. We were doing all the right things. You know, we called

the, the 700 club help line. They were praying. She's been healed. Well, she wasn't healed. And she

died. And that was a real blow for me that I think made the light bulb come on. You know, this

stuff just doesn't work. And there was another case where a child had leukemia, a little boy at age

five. And of course, they were praying. And he was going to be healed. And he wasn't. He died.

And then they said, they took it to, well, don't to the parents. Don't get the body involved

in, in bombed because God is going to raise him up at the funeral. And he's going to come back

to life and be resurrected. Well, guess what? That didn't happen. He was no zombie. Yeah. So

I want to let down. No, no, no. And I will throw though, though, though, there are, you know,

whether it's prayer or the positive energy, there actually are studies where, where the amount

of positive energy groups and organizations put out through meditation actually can affect things.

So I will throw there is some, some pseudo science on that out there. I have not read anything

scientific that impressed me on it. It's interesting. So Joseph Spenza in his works, Dr.

Joseph Spenza, what the hell's the name? Becoming supernatural actually talks a lot about

what he found through the studies of that. They actually, anyway, I, I, I, I dress on this thing.

I just, I don't want to discount people's faith in their, in their prayers, what I'm trying to do.

All right. And this is just my, my position, right, coming from my angle. A lot of people find

prayer soothing. If it, if it helps them, it's meditative. It helps them cope. It can serve

a psychological purpose for them. I have a dear friend who's a therapist and she said, you know,

I don't really believe in God, but I still pray because it makes me feel better. If it makes you

feel better, do it. And, and I do not have all knowledge. And I can't say that there's never

effect and effect from it. But certainly in my growing experience, I believed in it. I was taught

that. But I, I saw that it did not fit with reality. And fortunately, I was, I was reading a lot.

And I was open to new ideas. I went to the library all the time. And of course, if you've read my

book, you know, I was married in a mother at 16 because of the face. And I was breaking free

by developing the ability to sink my own thoughts. And at some point, something happens for people,

whatever it may be, whereas you say they see a shink in the armor and thinking starts to kick in.

And once they start to develop their own ability to critical think, they can look back on the whole

thing and make an assessment of it. And that's often where people say, you know, I don't, I don't

swallow this anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that damn thinking, they don't like it when you say

curiosity, you know, you're out. I mean, you start, yeah, you become the black sheep

when you're starting asking questions. And they just kind of know, well, we lost one.

This one, and you get shunned. Yeah, you do. I mean, you really do. You start to get looked at

as like, oh, well, maybe the kids shouldn't play with that one because that one thinks.

And you know what they do. And the land. So, you know, in the homage culture, they shun you,

which is a very powerful thing. You're cut off. And what they did in IBLP, you know, and, you know,

Jim Bob said it's all time. You will no longer be under the protective umbrella. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, so they, they, they, they shamed you with fear of no longer being protected. Again,

that fear, fear, fear. I mean, they, they love their umbrellas in IBLP. I mean, that's, that's

their whole damn thing. I want to take it back for a second. We're talking about,

um, Jim Bob, you know, allegedly deceiving her, essentially, with that contract on her,

I believe it was her wedding. For the birth, her wedding was, was day before the wedding,

day before the wedding, where it was basically sign off everything. And, you know, you're thinking

your father has your best interest at heart. I mean, this is what you've been raised to believe.

And she signs the damn thing. And, and it being, um, deceptive. And, and depending how you're

looking at it, one could go, oh, Jim Bob is sitting there in the corner going, I'm going to

deceive her. I'm going to go sneak this in. And hopefully she doesn't realize what she's

signing. I don't know that he's sitting there thinking that, you know, because, because I think,

in my opinion, they're, he's seeing it as normal. He's saying this is just the modality. This is

how it works. I don't think he's, he's not over in the corner being evil. Oh, how can I deceive

my children? That, that's not, I mean, I just, that's not. And that's why I think when, when

they're confronted with these realities and these challenges from society saying, this isn't okay,

this is, this was pretty shitty what you did over here. That's not how they saw it all when they

were doing it. And, and they're, they're also unable to do a whole lot of, uh, introspectively

looking at their actions and go, hey, maybe I should see it from a different way. Luckily,

the girls did. And they, they for a long time just saw it the same way that, that Jim Bob allegedly

sees it as, I'm looking out for my children. It's part of the umbrella. It's part of the system.

They are breaking the system. If they want to get out from the umbrella and if they're going to do

that, well, then according to my belief system, then well, good luck to them. This is why you get the

stories where, well, your inheritance is going to be reduced and threats and this and that.

But again, they're not looking at it as a threat or, or, or necessarily, it is 1,000 percent

control, but they don't see it as that because they've redefined it in their mind as something else

as love, as, as the direction, as, as they're the shepherd guiding the flock. It's also done by God.

Also are done by God. Yeah. That's, you know, as you said, that's who, that's, you know, when you look

at their website and go to their videos on authority, that's exactly what happens is they talk about

the authority and authority of God and God, God made this hierarchy and structure, and you must

obey to it because if you don't, well, then you're going to burn in hell. Again, the fear factor comes in.

Yeah. Exactly. Then you add words in like, well, it's witchcraft if you look at something other than

than what I'm saying. Let's talk about this because this obviously, I'm going to say,

I'm going to go on a limb here and, and say, it seems the Dugger family doesn't quite understand

contraceptives. They, they don't seem to either believe in them or understand their use.

Sin. And they have deliberately kept sex education out of their homeschool curriculum.

They even went on the 19 kids and counting when the, when Josh got married. There was that,

that cute little segment where they fumbled through the idea of sex. And I think I kind of know what

I'm talking about that, even though he's already did all the sisters and we all in Jim Bob knew that.

But for TV, it's like, oh, he said, he knows nothing about this. Let's talk about that a little

bit because they, they keep the education out of their curriculum. But clearly in this family,

some of the boys figured it out pretty early of, of what, what their parts did or what they were

interested in. What, what does that specific deprivation do to a developing young adults

when you're not going to educate them and you're going to keep them completely isolated from

society where they might be able to pick pieces up here and there. It really stunts their

development because they don't know what normal is. They don't have boundaries. And particularly

for the daughters, how do they even have a language to report what's happened, right? Because

secrecy is a virtue. And girls, typically in these kinds of systems have no power. They have no

voice. They are diminished. They, they're not as valuable as the boys. And it's something that

really sets them up. Boys don't know what normal do they understand what masturbation is.

You know, do they even have a clue on, on who it's okay to touch and who it isn't okay to touch.

You know, they don't have the information and the knowledge. So they really are handicapped.

And it's just, it's just a petri dish for awful things to happen sexually.

You know, this, this, we talked about this before the show, we've even started this non-correcting

doctrine that people have. And the author, Noah Havari, who I've quoted a few times, he wrote

the book, Sapiens and Homo Deus and then the last book is Nexus. And that's how human beings

communicate. Systems that actually are self-correcting systems that can evolve both documentary as well

as spoken and everything are our healthy systems. But when you have a system like this one that is

not self-correcting, these things happen. But it still blows my mind and, and so Shavon,

how is it that a father can now have two sons that have done horrendous things to their

sisters and others most likely cause because of this system, this non-correcting system of

education. And yet he still doubles down on that non-correcting system. He is still involved

with the church. He is still doing these things, yet it is completely wrecked lives. How is it

that someone does not see that incorrect and move on and grow? It's amazing the ability that some people

have to delude themselves and to not see reality. Some people are really good at it. And the ways

that people will rationalize their kids, horrendous behavior and their own horrendous behavior.

And the other thing that's occurred to me, we know about a certain amount of abuse. There could

be lots more abuse that went on that we don't know about. Because often in these families too,

it's not only the girls that are molested, boys are molested by older brothers. And that's

something that people really feel a lot of shame about and tend not to talk about. Sometimes they

never talk about it or they talk about it decades later as they're older. And they don't even know

because they don't even have the words for it. They don't even equip them with words to understand

its abhorrent behavior. It just blows your head. It's the magic of the IBLP.

I mean, it's just it's nuts. There's so much more we're about to get into here. Be sure to press

subscribe. Wherever you're downloading podcasts so you don't miss any of our conversation on this

and weigh in on Substack and YouTube. We'd love for you to do just that. Josh Dugger is in

federal prison. He's been for a while. Joseph Dugger was arrested just the other week on charges.

He reportedly admitted to twice. My father Jim Bob allegedly knew about Josh's abuse of his

daughter since 2002. But he chose to go to church elders instead of police allegedly. Later,

he testified under oath that he couldn't remember those events. I don't know. I don't remember.

A federal judge said that was not believable and said, get out of my courtroom. You know,

Mr. Godly getting kicked out of the court. Shaman Scott is with us. She has 30 years of experience

working with people who've committed violence in these sort of settings. This conversation looks

at the psychological issues behind these actions as we break it all down way in with your thoughts

in the comments section. Shavan, let's talk about this. When you look at Josh Dugger's pattern,

the other brother, the one who had the accusations, who did things to his sisters and then later

was downloading CSAM material at his used car lot, living a double life as a public values advocate.

He was out there on the Christian circuit or the IBLP circuit. Trying to tout himself as being

this, this, you know, religious juggernaut. He's this great figure. One should try and strive to be

yet he's doing all of these things in the background. Oh, yeah, he was also on what Ashley Madison

is while cheating on his wife with porn stars. But this is religious. I mean, what the hell is going

on here? And there's just so many things. What's going on with him and what's going on with the

family that still says, ah, this is working out lovely. We're going to keep backing him up.

It's almost delusional, isn't it? This kind of break within a person that they can compartmentalize

that effectively. The other interesting thing about this type of faith is that people tell themselves

they can commit really awful sins if we want to just call it a sin. But then just pray for forgiveness

and it's all wiped clean. And I think that is something that if you could sit and get this person

to talk with you, there was probably a cycle where he maybe even had kind of an addictive cycle

with certain kinds of sexual behavior that, you know, got him incarcerated. But he then could turn

back to God and have a holy week where he didn't engage in any of that kind of thing. So it's

kind of the splitting that they do internally between, well, the devil made me do it that week.

But now I've prayed I'm forgiven and I can go back and be holy again. And so it's like they have

not multiple personalities, but it's like they separate their internal self.

So Shivan, I've seen both in the counterintelligence world, like, for example, in Russia,

they actually created a Russian KGB kernel, created an entire network of sparrows to do honey traps

basically. He created this because he abused women himself. And so he created an entire network

for cover for him to do to support behavior. I'm curious. When you look at the origins of

IBLP, does this look like a system was created just for this end using the justification of religion

and twisting it for cover so they could actually do these horrendous things? I mean, because the entire

thing seems so set up to abuse women that don't even know they're being abused because it doesn't

have a definition and to provide cover for those actions by their authority, their umbrellas and fear.

Certainly can be. Certainly can be. And that would get into how conscious are they of having

a hidden agenda here? Certainly could be. We see cases like that. But it's also possible,

particularly for the younger kids that they grow up in it, and they just internalize it,

and so they do it automatically without realizing that, oh, hey, I've created this system here

where look at all the benefits I get from it. I want to talk about the apology thing,

because that seems to be how it all gets wiped away. And biblically speaking,

it does say, ask for forgiveness from God, and then your sins will be forgiven. If you admit

for them, you were toned for them, then, okay, then you're okay. Great. That's between the sinner

and God. It says nothing about the damage that that sin, if you will, did to other people,

the path of chaos that they have gone down and all of the wreckage that's in their wake.

And so many folks, and it's seemingly, it feels like at least in this case too, Joseph

allegedly admitted to what he did to the girl's father. The girl's father, this is brother number

two now. This is a new one we're talking about. Then the father gets on the detective on the line,

unbeknownst to Joseph. Joseph admits it again, apologizes again for what happened six years ago.

And thinks, oh, well, you know, I apologize, I get toned for my sin, case over, case over,

case over, everything's good. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's a really,

it's a system that's really designed to pretty much take a predator and, okay,

clean slate for you, and no accountability. It removes accountability by saying,

um, sky daddy forgives you. And it doesn't really matter what else you did because sky daddy says

it's okay. Yeah, it was shitty. It was horrible. She's traumatized for the rest of her life. She'll

have nightmares, she'll have issues with men in any relationship she ever has. But because

sky daddy says, I'm good, I'm good. So this is just insane. We call it religion and it makes

it all good. What does this specific pattern tell you about how he processed what he did?

The fact that he was just so willing, I mean, I find that interesting too, that he was so willing

to even go on a phone call and tell the dad, yeah, I did that allegedly, you know, yeah, okay,

I'm sorry. And most, most predators would like, like, no, that's not, I don't know what she's,

they're like, yep, did it. That's wraps. That's wraps. Yes, that is wraps, wraps of,

when you say, yeah, did it of no consequence either. What's your thoughts there? It's weaponized

forgiveness. And I think that is part of the teaching that you can, you can, um,

fess up to something and everybody has to forgive you. They're supposed to forgive you. And that

just wipes the slate clean as if it never happened. And people may do that on a weekly basis,

right? They may do something horrible. On Sunday, they go to church, they say, you know, I'm sorry,

and the slate is wiped clean. And the people that they offend against, let's say, little girls

growing up in this, they're taught that it is their spiritual duty to forgive. And, you know,

my term, term, definition for forgiveness is after reparations have been done, after hard work

has been done, you may or may not, because it's not necessary to forgive someone, but you may come

to a place where you can accept, they did a very bad thing, but they've made reparations and

there has been some consequences. And so I no longer carry this sense of hatred toward them,

but I don't, you know, just about what happened. But I think in the religious system like this,

you're supposed to pretend it never happened and everything is hunky-dory. And so it's,

it's really weaponized and it's, it's not healthy forgiveness in any way.

They fuel their entire economy by this. It's mind-blowing, still mind-blowing to me that

what they did was in order to make reparations, one of the things for making reparations is you

sent them to the work camp at headquarters to do these projects. And so they had, so just think

about it. If not saying all the kids involved here, but if a lot of your, your workforce is put

into the workforce because they're making amends for these horrendous things they're doing,

it becomes a self-fulfilling loop about how they're, they're, they're sustained things. And

also they have to pay. So, so here's how they're, this economy, not saying the entire thing, but

this, in this one little portion here with Jim Bob and his family. So in order to make reparations

for abusing your sisters, we're going to send you to the work camp that we got to pay for. So

in other words, you're going to pay headquarters. You're going to give them a big chunk of check

and you're going to send your son there for a free work camp for two to three months and then

he's going to come back and do it again. Oh my god. Oh my god. You know, just, just,

Dick's gets the predator out of you. You know, if you, let me do a little, no counseling,

no therapy, especially for the girls, nothing for the girls. Right. And that's the kind of reparations

I speak of when, when if you're going to have some kind of healthy forgiveness, it's where the

person fully comes to understand what they have done. In this case, the sexual offenses, the

predation where they have treatment, they, you know, they work hard to be a very different person.

They learn and they grow. And then at some point they can come to the victim and say, look,

I really messed you up and I own it. And, and to never demand forgiveness that that's supposed

to happen, you know, because it may, it may not. In either way, it's, it's really the victim's

process, whether they go there or not. I found it really, really telling and, and it was a

stunning moment. It was in the, the doc that's out right now, the shiny, happy people. It was

an IBLP conference because they don't have like, and they don't have a centered church. It's all

within their homes and then they go and rent out conference centers or they did. And there was,

one where they're all singing, it was all worth it in the end. Essentially, they're, they're,

they're taught to believe that we're going to be persecuted and all the negative things that

happen to us. Well, it's because we have to show how strong our faith is for God and yes,

there's going to be suffering because it's a sinful world and it all just, it's just going to

happen to us. So they just, they kind of get used to thinking, well, bad things are going to happen.

And when they do, well, that's just part of the plan. It was all worth it in the end.

And that weaponized forgiveness that you brought up. I think that that's a really powerful

word because that's really how they operate. It is the weaponized forgiveness because they,

they feel that, you know, I'm supposed to do it. I'm supposed to go and forgive no matter what.

Or if you're the one who did the horrible thing, well, they're supposed to forgive me.

And then, and then if, and if they don't forgive me, then you can flip the script really quick and

you become the victim and they become the predator, which is, you know, predatory behavior one

on one. But in this case, it's a religious way of thinking. It's, it really is,

it's amazing how just moving some of those blocks around creates a very different mindset

on unjustifying the behavior to which they engage in. I don't know that I have a question there,

but it just kind of gets an observation on it. And just again, that whole mindset from that

early grooming into this, the girls felt bad for Josh when his secret got out.

The victims felt bad for the perpetrator of horrendous things on them because it was leaked.

And it should never have been leaked. There was, yeah. There's, there's, there's so much here where,

well, it's not supposed to happen that way. I think it explains that. It explains a lot why

Michelle Dugger was running out of her house the other day, a legend. I mean, we saw the video.

I, and I wasn't able to confirm whether this was current or was it filmed at a prior time when

one of the children got busted for something. But I saw it was the first time I saw it and there was,

it was some YouTuber or something that was sitting outside the house, not on the property. Michelle

comes running out with her camera. You're not supposed to be here. This is her word. You're not

supposed to be here talking in her way. No, no, there's children. I'm protecting children. And

I believe the bloggers response was something to the effect of like, uh, maybe you should be

more concerned about your son-in-law for, for that considering everything that's going on right

now. But, but there's, there is this genuine shock, if you will, and disappointment in other

human beings around them that, that the attention might be drawn to them, that people might be looking

at them going, what the hell are you doing? And, and, and that one would have this opinion. She

seems genuinely perplexed and shocked by this. And I think anybody that sticks around in that system

also adopts that same sort of mindset. And they never really seem to, to, to catch on. Yeah,

there's something wrong here. There's a reason everybody's looking at you and pointing fingers.

And it's not because you're the cute 19 kids anymore. It's because this is some sort of predatory

system appears that it's been running out of this family for years. And it's created monsters that

have ruined the lives of several young girls by now. But why are you here? You're not supposed to be

here. It's, it's really interesting what they're able to tell themselves to, to continue, I guess,

counting on, if you will. Yeah, it's protect the system at all costs. It deny reality to protect

the system, sacrifice your kids to protect the system. And it reminds me of people in those

face healing religions where they absolutely will not let their diabetic kids have insulin. You

know, they won't take dying kids to the doctor. It's, it's appalling, but they will protect the system

before, I mean, they sacrifice their kids to it. You know, Shavon, you said, you know, when I was

telling the anecdote about Jill and how she had the, the chink and the armor was exposed and

everything started unraveling when she saw that her father wasn't being transparent with her,

with the signing of the contract. And you perfectly said, it's, it's that critical thinking.

What can you do to such a systemic system to kind of get those chinks? Like how can you inspire someone

from the outside looking in to start that unraveling through some critical thinking if anything?

It's, it's really tough. And I think it comes from contact with the outside world in some way,

either from reading. And that's one of the, one of my favorite books is educated by Tara Westover

who was raised in a very cult family, a version of, a version of Mormonism. It was an off,

another offshoot of Mormonism. But it's just an absolutely superb book about her breaking away

from just, I don't know if it, it, it probably is very similar. I'm trying to think is it

worse than the Duggers, but similar. But horrendous things happened in her home.

Her family didn't even let the kids have birth certificates. The children were birthed at home.

They never saw doctors. They never went to a dentist. They, of course, never went to public school.

But one of the older siblings in that family somehow got out and went to college.

And he came back and had books into the home. And he encouraged Tara to start reading, to start

thinking. And she went on to become a college professor and, you know, completely broke from

her family. So, title is educated. And it's, it's how she began to see reality because of

contact from one brother who was breaking away intellectually. And so at some point, if you can

get somebody who's outside of the cult connected with some of the kids in some way, and to just

be curious and to start asking questions without overtly attacking the, attacking the belief system

because people defend against that. But there's power in getting people to think. And sometimes just

the right questions push that along. And so tough because, you know, they create their own documents.

They create their own curriculum. They create the entire thing around their fear system

that the outside world is, and it's funny how they, they say not to judge the outside world,

but you can't have interaction with the outside world. I mean, it's a really fascinating control

factor. Like, how do you, again, spark in that curiosity to get that critical thinking going?

Because even in Dougher's, I think I saw it part of it too, is they had a book burning.

You know, it's like, hey, you know, we got to remove all these bad influences.

Because they burned all their Disney stuff. They burned all in Disney. Yeah.

Because Disney's horrendous. Yes, Disney was the devil in the, in the Dougher's.

That was, that was the faith I was brought up in. And if, if kids, you know, let's say they were

allowed to have a sleepover and my kids, because I knew families that were this extreme. And maybe

they would let the kids have a sleepover at my house. And if I let them watch an old VHS

Disney movie, that was sin. You had committed a sin and you were ostracized for things like that.

And I always, by that time in my life, I knew that was wacky. But Disney movies involved magic,

magic is of Satan. So basically, it's this black and white thinking that anything that is not

biblical is of the devil. And yeah. And for Mark Fry, how do they, how do they teach not to be

part of the world, but have a TV show? So the father said, it came to them and it was their

ministry. And actually, they very rarely, if ever saw themselves on TV, they got to see some rough

cuts. He was there to justify it. That's right. Like rationalize making all that money and not

sharing it with anyone. When it, when it serves a purpose, then it's a ministry. That is ministry.

Yeah. The, put a word is just to sign a word to it. The sign a label that it makes a good why?

Because dad said so. And dad's one step below Bill gothard and God. So, you know, it's, you know,

of course, your thoughts in the comment section of, of this segment. We'd love for you to do that.

The links are in the description, sub-stack in YouTube. We'll continue that there.

Jill Dugger spent years in therapy before she could talk openly about her childhood.

This last week, she made a statement condemning Joseph's alleged abuse and supporting the victim.

Jill is just one of hundreds of thousands who grew up in IBLP, most of whom have never been on TV or

had a public voice. This conversation is going to be looking at what people need to recover from

such a system and what those involved right now need most. We were kind of talking about this

a little bit in our last segment. Jill is one who was able to, to see the lights, if you will,

and and get out. Something struck her that this is off. This is wrong. This is not the way I want to

live. This is not the way I want to raise my family or continue existing in the world. And we

talked about ways that that people can get in there can inspire the existing ones to see the light

and to see that there's a world outside of this cult-like system that they're growing up in.

When you have something like this, a family that is so dug in, they're the doggers,

is it in a situation like this? And to anybody else out there who may be in a similar type situation

who has a family member that still stuck in in one of these cult-like things,

is it incumbent upon that person to try and help get the other family members out to help them

see the light? Because it is such a brick wall because there is not a lot of other influences

or voices going in there that can help inspire these people to see reality, to educate them.

If you are one of the few people who may be able to infiltrate that, somewhat covertly not going

in there going, mom and dad are crazy, but but slowly get in there and show them. What sort of

responsibility exists if Annie to those who have escaped it, to help their siblings,

maybe I'm being extreme, maybe I'm not survive and move into a life that isn't prone to this sort of chaos.

I think it's a wonderful thing to do, but some of the, let's say you have a family with a lot of

siblings and you're the person that is broken free from it, there are going to be some of your siblings

who may be ready to hear a dose of reality and they may be questioning. Often this is the person or

the people who are really suffering because what happens particularly to women in these kind of

systems, they struggle with depression, but they never admit it because it's not safe to talk about

it, it's not safe to have any other emotional expression other than joy, you're supposed to be

joyful all the time and so often people are struggling and suffering and sometimes those are the

people that you can connect with. There's a bit of an open door there, but there are people who are

so rigid and so indoctrinated, they're not going to listen and they're going to get angry if you

even try. So you sort of have to feel your way through that, but I think it's a wonderful thing to

do to try and get in there bond with someone and have a very heart-to-heart connection that

may help the door crack open so that they can start to see a way out and start to develop a sense of

what this really is making me unhappy. It's like the matrix. Some people are ready to be rescued

from the matrix and other people just want to stay in the matrix because it's warm and comfortable

and cozy. That's interesting. Because when you talk about it, the safety and security, those are

two very important things to every single human being out there, regardless of how you were brought

up or you're religion, but safety and security, how you define that is going to be an individual

thing to everybody and the way that it's been defined and bred basically into these people

is the umbrella system. Is dad is end all be all? What he says is it? He is the safety and security.

And when dad's telling you that, you know, no, the outside people here telling you this,

this is bad. Don't listen to them. But when you actually do get out of it, let's say, you know,

like Jill, I don't know Jill. I'm not trying to speak for her in any way, shape or form. But I

would imagine that would have been a struggle for a while for anyone that's escaping that sort of

a system of where your default is safety and security means dad. It means this overpowering

overwhelming system that is going to tell you, yes, no, right, wrong. And that's it. And there's

no gray area when that's then eliminated from your life. And dad's not there to do that. That

is a scary prospect. That threatens your safety and security because what had actually been your

safety and security all that time was truly the biggest threat to your well-being. But you

called it your safety and security. You didn't know. It's you have to redefine a lot of these terms.

That has got to be a very complicated thing to do. A lot of adults are grew up in IBLP,

describe having no idea what normal looks like. They never made an autonomous decision,

never owned their own body, never developed an independent identity. What is the actual clinical

work of building a self that was never allowed to form when you're an adult?

It's really that's a perfect word, you know, because that group has become their identity.

They don't have a very strong sense of self. And again, that will vary from person to person.

But I think when I work with clients like that and going back to my own experience,

it's number one, helping them recognize their own emotions, their own internal emotional

experience because you're taught to deny it. I remember being 14 years old and I had a sticky

note on the mirror in my bathroom. The only reason I'm alive today is to serve God in all I do.

And so that was don't have a self. Don't feel your feelings. Feelings were dangerous.

Thinking was dangerous, right? You just repeat Bible verses in your head all the time.

So clinically, you have to get beyond all that. What do you really feel?

What do you really think when you step back from this? And that can be really earth shaking,

but really wonderful at the same time. It can feel like a weight off as people start to

to get a sense. You know, I do have my own thoughts. I do have my own feelings. And sometimes

it can happen pretty rapidly. Although the echoes linger, you know, they can linger for a lifetime.

That old programming can pop back up every now and then. But I think overall it's a wonderful

process for people when they have some support and some help. And the right therapist to

understand these kind of systems can really make a big difference for them.

You know, how do you build back and that I can't imagine the challenge. And as a therapist,

Shavon, of building back from being crushed. So, you know, in all these situations,

in Jill's situation, and when you had this aha moment, they were taught, they were from the

moment of birth all the way up that it's all about service, it's all about relationships,

our relationship, God. And it's all about being about others, especially from the father figure,

taking care of the daughter. So always take it, you know, they trust a dad. It always do good

by the family. And then you have literally a bone crushing moment when that critical thinking

comes in and that critical thinking, what it really is doing, it's exposed in a fact that

they're not actually acting in my best interest. They're they're treating me as an object for their

own gain. Yeah. How do, you know, how do you help someone come back from that and have them feel

valued again? Because really, all of a sudden, they were devalued by that group organization

individual that said their entire lives that you're valued as an individual, you're valued as a

daughter, you're valued as a child of God. And all of a sudden, I was just a means to the end.

Yeah. I think that's the point that a lot of people cut off their families. They at least cut

them off for a period of time. And some people cut them off permanently because they want to

individuate, they want to separate from the families. And it's really helpful to have a new peer

group. There are a lot of support groups for people who are ex-fundamentalists, you know, who

can support each other through that. And that's, I think, I think it's surprising sometimes to see

how quickly people grow and develop that self that they never did before. And it's possible. I

always encourage people to, you know, to embrace life, to embrace new things, embrace new people,

read all the books that you weren't allowed to read before. And it's like the world opens up. And

it's just wonderful to see like you really are recreating yourself.

And I think that you make such a good point of understanding why these support groups are so

important because you're literally cut off from feeling like you're valued by anyone to actually

zero. You're going from 100 to zero. And so actually kind of being reabsorbed back into a healthy

group where you're seen and valued. And you can start moving forward again. It's so critical.

Well, and I would imagine a lot of them feel like they're the only one doing this. I mean,

they've already been told, you know, it's equivalent to which craft and crack cocaine and

everything horrible in the world for having different opinions or thinking slightly differently,

or questioning, just asking the damn question. Is this really, does this make sense?

So feeling alone and isolated, you know, that's, if you break apart, that's what they want,

because that'll bring you back. That's part of how the system is designed. So having that support

is invaluable to someone who finds themselves in that sort of a situation.

Jill has said that she needs strict boundaries with her parents for her own mental health.

I think, you know, almost anyone, whether they had a fundamentalist family like this,

or just a religious family, let's say they're just not super down with that anymore as they go

back for the holidays, there's always going to be some level of conflict and differences

from parent to child or family member to family member. But this is quite an extreme one.

Once you've left a system like this and you're able to look back at the damage,

when you walked away, you might have gone, oh, yeah, that looks, you know, it was a bit of a flood,

you know, there's, they picked up the pieces and things are good. And then you spend a few years,

you look back at the damage you walked away from and you're like, oh, God, that was Hurricane Andrew.

It was horrific what I walked away from. It's not even something, you'd be like, oh,

you know, how you doing? It's got to be difficult to have any sort of relationship with people

like this and have boundaries because that sort of a system doesn't know boundaries from the

parental aspect down because again, the dad, the mom can kind of do anything they want,

according to the system. And so the bounds are not there and they don't need to necessarily

respect the wishes of the child because they're below them. It's all hierarchical.

Is in a situation like this, is there ever truly a way to to maintain or have any semblance of

a relationship when you are no longer practicing the bullshit and the family is still 1,000%

seeped in it as a way of life? I think most people in those extreme cases do the cut off with the

family. Maybe they will correspond with an occasional email, how you doing, but they really

do not spend time together. They don't go home for holidays. That's just most of the time. I never

try to mandate to people, you know, the right way to do it. I think everybody has to sort of

feel that through themselves. But occasionally, I'm thinking of one friend who, she says, I just

let it all roll off. She sees her parents maybe once a year for a couple hours and they try to

preach at her and she knows it's coming and she just ignores it and lets it roll off. But they're

never going to listen to her. They don't care about her point of view. But I think probably the

majority of people just say, I can't take this. And if the parents are rigid and won't respect boundaries,

like let's not talk about religion, you know, and the parents do it anyway, it's pretty rough for

people. And they, I mean, some of the modality there is the parents believe their, their

salvation depends on spreading the word and forcing it down someone else's throat. And so they

have a different motivation. That motivation is not the well-being of the child. It just goes back

to their own self-preservation at the end of the day. And that seems to be the problem with so

many of religions is it ends up being 100% about self-preservation while being marketed as it's

all about everybody else. Isn't it amazing that here it is that you're in a group and organization

that is saying it's about service and and evangelizing and spreading the word. And yet your own

children won't take that word. And yet you're now making the choice to allow your children to

distance themselves from you because you're prioritizing that. So in other words, you're being

selfish in not focusing on your children first. It just again, it's just, it's so incongruous with

what they're saying. It's mental gymnastics. Yeah. And it shows that that this whole thing is

really twisted and it's about narcissistic spirituality, right? It's a good term. Yeah, it's true.

It's abusive spirituality. And it's really about the individuals at the top of the chain here.

It's not about love. It's not about serving. It's not about, you know, helping your children develop.

It's all about them and the boosting of their own ego and their own sense of righteousness.

It's interesting. Every time we come across cases like this, some reminder to the movie, I think

it's called a heretic. It's a creepy thriller horror movie. But it really comes down to

this guy in the movie, just researching and researching and researching the most ancient religion

on the face of the planet in our species. And it is a religion of control. Yeah. And the mental

gymnastics that need to be done to participate in it with a straight face, it certainly is the

circus of the stars over there on the count. You like that one? I thought I got for, I got

for a deep one, the circus of the stars, the mental gymnastics with the narcissists spiritual,

spiritually bankrupt folks that we're talking about. Let's talk about one more thing on this.

The 14 year old girl who's a victim that really has brought this whole damn thing back to light.

She was nine when this took place. We don't know, you know, these are allegations against Joseph.

He's allegedly admitted to them on the phone. The hearings all that have yet to take place. So it is

what it is. Everything's innocent until proven guilty. What are the odds? This is the only one.

I mean, statistically speaking here, I don't think it was one day. He's like,

oh, I wonder what it would be like if I took a blanket over here and went to this nine-year-old

and started touching her inappropriately. I'm thinking this might be a pattern because folks

like that aren't necessarily created in a vacuum. I'm going to guess there's a lot of other

victims out there. Again, I don't know it. I'm not saying there is, but I'm saying statistically

odds wise, there probably is. Is this just the tip of the iceberg of maybe might we finally be

seeing the final destruction of the doggers with what may come out after this allegation,

because this is not that it's anything small, but this is more extreme and even more disturbing,

I would say, I think to a lot of folks than the CSAM material that Josh had in his computer.

This is actual action as an adult against a child predatory behavior, human to human.

Yeah, that was the first thing that came to my mind is that usually when there's one victim who

comes forward, you investigate and eventually other victims come forward to. It's also possible

that, as I said, some of them will be male victims. It's probably just the tip of the iceberg.

Is there any way the doggers can say that if you're looking at it right now and you're going,

okay, you're going to PR is going to be a big part of this for them as they navigate. They can

either dig in deeper, which they seem to have always done. We love our family. We love our kids.

We're not going to say much. We're going to go hide in our cult. That may be the end of it.

I mean, this could also be this, if the doggers love their money and they love the attention,

I don't know what they do. I'm just speaking out loud here, but if they really want to truly

make a difference, I mean, you could. You could totally use this as a, we were duped moment.

We were, as a family, we went into this religion thinking this way and that way and we were

deceived. My goodness, let's call all of this out. It could really be a total changing learning

moment for the world. And I'm sure that's not going to happen. But how PR-wise, do you think this

should be handled on the part of those who didn't aren't charged with any crime here, but are

in proximity to this and clearly have a track record of covering up this sort of behavior in the

past with family members. Yeah, we hope that more people speak out. We've got to do what you're

doing. Keep shining a light on it. And my guess is that over time, this kind of exposure will

have a really positive impact. And it's got to be shaking people in the organization up to

realize that, you know, the blinders are coming off. And as I say, it only takes a few people to

start questioning to start seeing a shift in groups like this. One can only hope. One can only hope.

Your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube have you been a victim of the IBLP

or a coercively controlling religious organization? We'd love to hear your story. I'm sure a lot of

people are going to be sharing theirs in the comments as they find this and going, oh, this seems

familiar. Please do. There's a great community here that would love to hear your story and can

probably commiserate as well. So in the comments, we'll continue our conversation there. Be sure

to press subscribe wherever you're getting podcasts as well. Shavon's book, if you want to check

it out, highly recommended. Nightbird, she shares her stories in it, growing up in that sort of

an environment. And Rob is new book as well. It's not all about me available. Also, wherever

books are sold. All right, until next time for Shavon, Robin and Todd and Tony Birsky, we'll talk

again real soon.

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Hi, this is Alex Cantrowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology podcast, a long time reporter and

an on-air contributor to CNBC. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial

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listen to Big Technology podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

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