The Karol Markowicz Show: Amy Swearer on the Second Amendment, Mental Health, Crime Policy & Choosing the Right Battles

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Why are you dealing with listening to Armstrong and getting on demand? We're not boring. Lot of news is boring. And tedious. And depressing. And makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world. How about something about a comedic tone? What? We have a winner? Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand on the I Heart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi and welcome back to the Carol Parkwood show on I Heart Radio. My guest today is Amy Swerer. Amy is a senior legal fellow at Advancing American Freedom, where she is a leading national expert on a wide range of public policy, legal and constitutional issues, including the Second Amendment, criminal justice and mental health policy.

1:00So nice to have you on Amy. Thank you so much for having me. So I first came across your work. It was during an event that we did together about the Second Amendment back when you were at Heritage. And you absolutely blew me away. I think I followed you like during that event. I was like, who is this woman? I need to know more about you. I saw you looking at your phone. All right. Yes, fair. You were just incredible. You were, no, no, of course. But you were, you were really fantastic. I thought you were so matter of fact and brilliance. I mean, but the way that you conveyed really complicated ideas and a much more simpler matter, I was incredibly impressed by you. How did you get into the topics that you specialize in? Like, where did you become a Second Amendment expert? Like, how did that happen? Yeah, I mean, like my entire career, largely by accident. So I stumbled into this role, not realizing that this was something people could get paid to do.

2:06You know, so I believe that I actually started out. I wanted to be a cop, right? I wanted a badge and a gun and a curb-stomp bad guys. I could see that. Right. I was in a FBI at the time, was in a hiring freeze. They were like, get a law degree. My parents were like, get a law degree. My professors were like, get a law degree. I guess, I'll get a law degree. I wanted to be a prosecutor. I ended up clerking at a public defender's office. There was a blink moment where, you know, I was doing international space law moot courts. And I truly thought like I was going to be practicing criminal law in the Midwest. And just happenstance and a lot of closed doors, closed windows. You know, I stumbled my way into a posting for it was a visiting legal fellowship in over criminalization at the Heritage Foundation. And I remember reading that job posting. I mean, like, you're going to pay me to do that. Like, you mean my job is going to be explaining to people that there are some laws that are bad and unproductive.

3:11And you know, are putting people in prison for reasons that are absurd. And we shouldn't follow those policies. And also many of them are unconstitutional. Salt. Right. Like, are you kidding? I know because when people say they work in public policy, it's a lot of times like when people say, oh, I work on the hill. It's this nebulous catch all for some way. Right. It could be anything. Yeah. And I didn't realize that, oh, my goodness. You know, I actually laugh because sometimes people still do that. Like, what does that mean? Right. Like, your policy expert, your illegal fellow. And I joke that my mom got the last laugh. So my mom is a teacher. And she always told me, Amy, you're going to be a teacher. I said, I'm, I'm never going to, I'm going to be a cop. Right. I'm not going to be a teacher. But she, she won out here. I mean, essentially, if I do explain what I do, I'm a teacher. Yeah. I teach people how good governance should work.

4:14And most people, they don't have, they don't get paid to sit around all day and think about from a conservative mindset. Right. What does good policy look like? What are, what are the, to become an expert in the facts of, of violence, of, of gun laws, of, of, of, you know, crime victimization. Much less with a legal component, right? What do I, you know, my job is to be an expert and then to convey that to break it down for students. And, and who that student has changes. I, I, I, I deal. I want the government to listen. Right. I want to do their job better. Right. What good governance should look like? And to rely on me as, as a resource. But you've sometimes it's, it's writing up its, right? It's, it's breaking it down for your, your average ordinary person of ordinary intelligence. You know, what, what does this mean? Like we're arguing about guns. What the heck is a bump stock? What is in a slow way? What do, what does that mean? What does that not mean?

5:14Why does anyone want an air of 15? You know, and sometimes it's, it's longer, lower views, right? It's, it's things that you want courts to rely on. So my, my student changes. But my mom wins. Right. Mom's. Mom's a mom's right. That's amazing. And you are because you're having to explain this, you know, on, on a, a number of different levels to all kinds of people. I love the idea that your audience changes, that your students change. But what made you get into mental health policy? What's the angle there? Yeah. So, um, so part of it is I, again, just the, the weird confluence of events with what my background was, um, when I clerked at a public defender's office during law school, we actually helped run the mental health docket. Um, so that's, uh, for essentially people who the state is alleging you are mentally ill and a danger to yourself. So you're either need, you're civilly committed or we need to have some sort of involuntary, um, you know, oversight of your mental health.

6:14Um, and so I, I learned a lot about mental health. I learned a lot about mental health policy at the time, um, you know, never really thought it would come back to me in my career. Um, but actually what ended up happening was, uh, while I was working on over criminalization, I started working on second amendment issues through the ones over criminalization. So this was right around the time, like 2017, if you remember, there, there were a number of really major mass shootings, right? Um, so, uh, spring was that year, um, I think the, the Las Vegas music festival shooting was that year. Um, and we didn't, I was at heritage at the time. We didn't really have anyone, believe it or not, who, who full time was working on second amendment issues. And so we needed someone to respond. You know, I, I had a personal interest in guns. And I'd been writing a paper, um, in the background on second amendment issues from an over criminalization perspective. This idea of like, why can't Martha Stewart own a gun.

7:15Right, she's objectively less of a danger to the public safety than I am. And that's absolutely right. And I am a danger to the public. It's because it's Martha Stewart, right? So where people in ways that don't make sense. Yeah. So we're responding to some of the gun policy issues from the perspective of, well, why would we criminalize possession of just a commonly owned gotten that is no different from any other type of non-assault weapon gun to make felons of a bunch of people. And when you look at the facts and the reality, you know, with mass shootings, most of these people are not prohibited persons. They can use the gun to kill a lot of people. And you're more basic, you know, ordinary one of the mill crimes. Are generally people who are already banned from owning any get? Like what are we doing? Absolutely. Yeah. So it was from an overcome perspective. So that I got into second amendment issues, which the more you get into second amendment and gun policy issues and violence and crime and mass shootings, they're such an overlap with mental health issues.

8:17And so it actually sort of came back full circle. Because I don't think you can fairly talk about gun issues and gun violence and gun deaths without that mental health component, not when a half to two thirds of gun deaths every year are suicides. Right. You have to be able to talk about that. And so, you know, it all just, just again, the Lord works in mysterious things that I never thought could possibly matter to what I wanted to do in my career. It is now in large part my career. What would you have done if you weren't doing this? I think I would have been a cop. I still joke that I'd have a hard time like if DHAs, like showed up and they were like, Amy, we need you to do. We need you to do undercover work. Really? I think it'd be great. I'm sorry. Well, hard time. You know, I'm married now. So there's another internet today. So I'm like, ooh, I gotta run that by another people.

9:19But curbs dumping, criminal, you feel like you'd be in for? Yeah, I think I would. I think in another life, if I weren't averse to blood in the way that I am, I might have been a doctor. But I don't know. I really think, and I could ride my hobby horse about the professionalization of the police horse all day. Because I do think it's sad that I did get a lot of comments at the time I came here, a chancellor scholar, like you can do better than being a cop. So I think it's a whole framing issue in and of itself that we don't view policing as this professional thing. Or it's like you can do better. I'm like, should the police force the... Yeah, the best was the law. Yeah, you know. So that's a whole different thing. But I really think in another life, you know, I was detective Amy. I could so see under cover. Yeah, absolutely. Do you have an area of study that you haven't gotten into,

10:20but you could see yourself pursuing? Oh man, you know, it's hard. It's almost hard to be, because any of the issues that I do study, right? Are issues that I never would have sought, I mean, I kind of made a career out over that. I would be doing full-time, whether it's, you know, crime, violence, guns, you know, my other full-time job is birthright citizenship issues. So it's not controversial topics. Yeah. Everybody gets along and we all would... I just want everyone to agree with you. No one is ever mad at my opinions. I hope, you know, my scholastic conclusions. But yeah, I, you know, I'll be honest, I, the things that interest me are really the things that touch on, I don't know how to say, humanity, right? Like this deeper meaning of what it means to live as a human, to be an American, right?

11:21To look at community with people and the way that that gets broken, you know, maybe in another life, I was a sociologist, like, I don't know, right? Yeah. But I love the human factor. And that's not to say, like, like, there's a human side to things like economics and the data and the stats and, you know, sort of like that, you talk to anybody who does like administrative law and they'll tell you, you don't understand how much of your life is actually dictated by things like, you know, that seem boring, like, like tax law or administrative law. So I don't know, I suppose there's a side of me that is, could be interested in any of those things in the sense of like, what is the component? How are we, how is this facilitating human flourishing? Or how is, how is, how is this undermining human flourishing in the way that we do it? So I, yeah, I know that's a bit of a challenge. Anything's possible. Yeah. It's a bit of a comment. I know it doesn't answer your question, but I so much of public policy, because of that human aspect,

12:27I do find interesting. It just happens that, you know, I've, I've the role that I've taken on has been in the Second Amendment in crime and violence and citizenship. But I find it all fascinating. Do you get a lot of hate? You kind of joked about that, but it's funny. Obviously, everybody in the public, I was susceptible to hate and comments and anger, but you just strike me as again, to call you again, matter of fact. I just don't see you as a highly emotional arguer. You're very like, this is how it is. This is what the facts are. This is the result of these facts. It's hard to be, I just have a hard time picturing people, you know, you're spiking their anger meter where they lash out at you because it's so just, I don't want to say clinical, but it, you know, in a way. It is. Have you been on the internet? I have. I have.

13:28No, I have. I just, I guess I see you as above that. Look, personally, I don't particularly like to engage in arguments like that. It happens. You know, it's, it's not unique to the gun space, certainly, but it does come out a lot. I have found that the gun policy space, it's easy to make everyone mad because it's, I think for so long, much of the public facing argumentation around it has been reduced to, like bumper sticker slogans because that sells, right? Right. Like banal air 15, you know, the accusation of, well, you just care about kids more than, or you care about guns more than your kids. I, which is insane. You know, I, I've been bullying this for almost a decade. I have yet to meet a single person on any side of this. He's like, hey, mass shootings, like, more dead kids. No, no, absolutely not.

14:29You know, and equally unhelpful on the other side of words, you know, all I, I'm immediately going to make someone mad listening to this, right? But the thing of like, you know, all gun laws are unconstitutional. Right. I'm like, you don't fully, you don't actually think that, you know, the Boston bomber has a God given a right to an AK 47 in prison. Um, that's a gun law. Right. So I'm glad we agree that there are some gun laws. It's like, you know, we agree that that guy shouldn't have a gun on. Um, it's a matter of what that looks like and, and the philosophy behind it and, and, and, you know, is this actually constitutional. Um, so it's, it's really easy to, to make people upset. Um, and I think doubly so because as, as I'm sure, you know, you are aware as, as you, you know, as I know, you've talked about like you've more recently gotten into the gun spacing your personal as a gun owner, right? Yeah. Um, there are a lot of Americans and increasingly so who just don't understand basics about firearms, right?

15:30You know, and people who, you know, like, I, I still have my personal life, all of conversations with people I've known a long time. We're like, you're in the military, right? And, and we're having to stop and be like, hold on. What do you mean when you say assault weapon? I'm to back that up to be like, it's not a machine gun. Right? It's not a fully automatic firearm. We are talking about the same semi automatic firearm, but with a pistol grip or a barrel shot. I mean, so there's, there's just this wide golf between like people who know a lot about guns we grew up with them and, and, and people who just really don't have basic understanding. And I think it makes it easier. A lot of times for those conversations, then to default into, well, this is really easy. You just hate kids and want them to die or, you know, this is really easy. You just, you hate the idea like you want to your need to win today. Um, it's just, it's, it, I have found it particularly difficult in a second amendment space. Um, and I, I think oddly enough, it's because the emotions get involved.

16:32It's, it's because of the, the stakes, right? We all actually agree crime is bad. Um, school shootings. No, I don't know. I, I, I lived in parks, no Brooklyn. I don't think I can get them to agree crime is bad. Well, okay. You fair, fair point, fair point. Maybe there are some spaces where we are not having like, you know, um, violence is a social construct. I know what. Okay. Like someone who's never been punched in the face for real. Um, you know, so it, it happens. Um, you know, it, people get very emotional in this space. And, um, I, I will say this, I say this to my interns all the time. I think the wrong reaction to the underlying emotion is to just dismiss it. Um, especially when you're talking with people for whom, as is often the case with, with gun violence, this is deeply personal. Right. Many, many people have had some interaction with whether it's mass shooting

17:32school shootings, uh, suicide, uh, that's deeply personal to, to them. And I don't think the answer is to dismiss that, right? Um, but it's not, this is why I can't imagine you getting hate. This is why I'm not the kind of, you know, like facts. It is objectively true. The facts exist outside of our feelings. But in the policy space, we're dealing with people and people have feelings that they care very deeply about. Um, and if you are just dismissing people and their emotions and not being them where they're at, the whole goal of public policy is to change minds. It's, it's to convince them to have those conversations. And you can't, when you're dealing with humans, take the humanity out of those conversations. So there's a line. Um, I, I think, um, they're so awesome. I love this. This is like, what a great answer because, you know, the idea that you get

18:32hate for facts that you produce and you still care about engaging with those people, just, I'm a fan of me. We're going to take a quick break and be right back on the Carol Marco at show. What are you most proud of in your life? I thought pretty hard about it. Like, how do I phrase what I feel as that answer? And I'll put it this way. I think right now at, at 33, I am most proud of the fact that I truly think if I met younger and older versions of myself that they'd be pretty stoked about where I'm at. But I think if you, if, if Amy right now met Amy at 16, 17, um, and was like, Hey, this is where at at 33, 16, 17 year old Amy would be stoked. She'd be like, we're testifying in front of Congress. Like, we're two truths and a liar. Our stellar were married.

19:35Like we found the love of our life. The love of our life loves us back. We, what's, it's amazing. Right. Um, and I think the same thing. Yeah, if, if I were to meet my future self, if I'm 20, 30 years from now, um, I truly think that that version of me would, would probably look back and say, you know, girl, you hit your stride in your 30s. Like you really came into your own, um, in a way that you never could have imagined. And we had one hell of a Jesus year. Uh, tell you what, didn't we? Yeah. And, and I, I think both older and younger versions of myself are looking at this. That's, that's pretty awesome. What a great answer. I haven't gotten that before at all. I feel like a lot of the answers, you know, people have the same things that they're proud of in their lives. And this was really something you need. Give us a five year out prediction. And it could be about anything at all. My cheat answer is there's nothing new under the sun. We'll be arguing about the same things. Um, from a second amendment perspective, um, you know, I, I think in, in five years,

20:39you will see a Supreme Court that will have been forced to take on some of the, the, the bigger questions in the gun policy space. Um, things like assault weapons, bands, magazine capacity bands. Um, and I, and I think in, you know, weird way, I, assuming that Supreme Court doesn't change from its current makeup, it'll, it'll strike those down. And I think it will actually cause a revolution in how we talk about gun policy. Because so much of gun policy right now is focused on these long standing, like very blanket issues. Um, where from my perspective, I'd look at, you know, something like a, assault weapons band, I'd be like, that's useless. But that's all we fight about. Um, and once those are gone, I think it's going to actually force the conversation to change about, okay. Now that we know we can't ban these anymore because that was a dominant constitution. Right. What does it look like to save lives? Right. What is it? Look like to be a responsible gun owner. What does it look like for there to be some government oversight and intervention?

21:39But that isn't in a blanket generally applicable way for like Martha Stewart. Um, I love that Martha's also your, you know, the one that is. This is, this is a big thing in the overcrimin second amendment world because it's, it's Martha Stewart, you know, in less the government, the federal government changes. How it does restoration rights. She's never going to get her gun rights back unless like trot partens her. Um, it's not an insane thing, right? It, you know, part of a much bigger conversation, but it's, it's for a reason. Martha Stewart comes up for a reason. And it's not just because she's tamed Snoop Dogg, right? But she has actually tamed Snoop Dogg. So, Amy, I have loved this conversation. I really love getting to know you a little bit better. Leave us here with your best tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives. Uh, um, so I, I'm really mad at Randy Barnett right now because he actually gave on your show. Oh, we see what I thought was, um, most profound answer I've ever heard, um, which to re up that was, um, live your life.

22:45Like you're going to run them. I'm running them. I'm, yeah. And so I think I'm going to give two pieces of advice. One's very quick. So yes, I'm cheating again. Um, but I, I think play into that that, that, that it's, it's a way to think about how to write your memoir. Um, you know, how to live your life in that way. So that the first, Mary well, Mary well, um, marriage is an amazing thing. 10 out of 10 recommend when, when you have the right partner, the way that it transforms you as, as an individual, and it just enriches your life. Amazing. Mary well. And you'll write a better memoir. Um, in the second, become an expert at strategic topography. All right. Barbara. Let me explain. Let me explain. Life is about knowing hills. It's about knowing which hills are worth fighting on, which hills are worth dying on and just as important. Knowing which hills are not important at all. And you can let other people die on those because it's what are we doing? Um, and I think a lot of times people spend so much time not understanding that.

23:51Um, we're not thinking about it in advance. Um, and so they learn the hard way. Like, man, I, I think I should have died on that health, right? I think maybe that's the hell I should have died on. Or maybe, you know, that was a hell I didn't need to, to die on. Um, and I, I think this is true both in, you know, your personal capacity and your personal life. I think this is true in your professional life. It's certainly true in public policy, um, in a, in a moral, spiritual sense. Um, and I think the better you can get early on it, it, it's thinking through and recognizing and knowing for yourself. What that means. Um, you know, what, what hills do you know you have to look like? And, and what hills, you're like, y'all can have fun fighting over that. I don't know. I don't know. You're living people over in my valley. Um, I, I think it's really going to, thinking about life like a memoir. You don't want to be writing a memoir about how you died on all the wrong hills. Yeah. Now you've wasted all of your political and social capital for things that didn't matter.

24:51Um, so become an ex very well, come an expert in strategic topography. Love it. Choose the hills to die on wisely. She is Amy Swear. Thank you so much for coming on the Carol Marco would show. Thanks, Carol. Why are you dealing with listening to Armstrong and getting on demand? We're not boring. Lotta news is boring and tedious and depressing and makes you angry. You don't want to live your life like that. Hey, I'm Jack Armstrong. He's Joe Getty. We're Armstrong and Getty. We try to bring you the truth and help you figure out this crazy modern world. About something about a comedic tone. We have a winner. Yes. Listen to Armstrong and Getty on demand on the iHeart radio app. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.