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About this Episode
Arsenal and Manchester City take to Wembley for the Carabao Cup final.
Will Arsenal pick up their first major trophy since 2020, or will Pep Guardiola get his hands on his fifth League Cup with the Citizens?
Host: Matt Davies-Adams
Guests: Tim Spiers & Cerys Jones
Executive Producer: Adey Moorhead
Producers: Jay Beale & John Rogers
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
Hosts & Guests
Transcript
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The Athletic FC
Welcome to the preview from the Athletic FC.
It's the show where we get you set for the weekends football.
This week we're looking ahead to the Carabao Cup Final.
It's Arsenal versus Manchester City.
And onboard today we've got two previews store
that's hello Tim Spears.
Hello, how are you Matt?
Really good, thank you.
Yes, very good indeed.
Kerry's James is back with us too.
Poor Kerry, she has to do far too many podcasts for me these days.
But hopefully you're in a better sort of mood than usual today, Matt.
Those messages being dropped into the Chelsea pod group chat
after a nosy and forest result doesn't normally happen.
It surely does not, but yes, I'll do all I can to crowbar in some chat
about the wonderful victory for forest.
Yeah, the Europa League quarterfinals looking forward to those very much indeed.
Later, we're getting some Premier League action taking place this weekend
because there's some big games in that.
But first, let's get to our feature presentation.
And it is the two sides battling it out.
For the Premier League title, we're going head-to-head
in the Carabell Cup final on Sunday.
Michele's men lead, Peps peeps by nine points in the league.
They played an extra game.
Tim, how big is this one psychologically?
Both sides going for the Premier League title.
And how diminished is the league cup given we're talking about the impact
on the title race before the prospect of winning an actual trophy?
Good point, Matt.
Yeah, primarily this is a trophy.
And, you know, an important one, Arsenal of 1-1 trophy since 2017.
That's far too long for a club of their stature.
And there are only one two EFL cups, which again is pretty hard to believe.
Last one in 1993.
And then, you know, for City, you know, their drought has been pretty long
by their standards.
Didn't win a trophy last year.
Potentially just sort of this and the FA Cup within their grasp.
This season at the moment.
It does have a bear in psychologically.
Probably less from a sort of a city point of view.
I think we saw against Real Madrid that they're very much, you know,
a developing, I guess, transitional sort of team.
But from an Arsenal point of view, it feels like their time is now, doesn't it?
And they've got to start delivering.
It's now or never.
I mean, bloody hell.
If they don't win a trophy this year, then they will never win a trophy.
It is now or never.
So I guess.
And it has to mean something for the future.
And it has in the past.
The EFL Cup has been the start of sort of big trophy halls.
If you remember, Chelsea and the Marini I think was their first trophy.
Was the EFL Cup.
Guardiola's first trophy with City.
Was the EFL Cup.
And obviously those sort of, you know, dynasties, if you want,
would probably have happened anyway.
But it's the sign of champions of winners.
And getting over the line has proved very difficult for Arsenal in recent years.
So if they lose here, then, yeah, we'll all be accusing them of mental disintegration,
you know, no matter how the game plays out.
So yeah, psychologically definitely important.
Would you reckon, Carissa?
I mean, this was perhaps plot for a while, wasn't it?
Well, wasn't it?
Well, he won it four years in a row.
But as Tim says, our tetra really needs to start putting some trophies in Arsenal's cabinet.
Does it matter more to one side than the other?
I think it's for Arsenal, it's a chance for them to, you know,
as Tim said, at least kind of numerically equal their most successful season
under our tatter in terms of, of silver wire.
It sets them up with good momentum going into the very last stage of the season.
So, from that point of view, psychologically, it's really important to them.
And I do certainly think if they lose, then the questions over the kind of title race get raised again.
But I would actually probably argue that this weekend is more important
for sissy in terms of their chance of silver wire this season.
You know, they have on paper a tougher quarter final in the FA Cup against Liverpool.
The Premier League title race is broadly out of their hands.
I'm not saying it's done and dusted.
But I think we can certainly call Arsenal the favourites for it.
They're out of the Champions League.
This is sissy's probably best chance of silver wire this season.
I think it's, it's probably fair to say that it's a huge one psychologically for Arsenal.
But ultimately come the end of the season.
If they do lift the Premier League as it looks as though they will,
nobody will remember that they lost this final.
Yeah, and as for sissy, I mean, I guess Gary says a danger that their season
peaters out if they don't win on Sunday.
Isn't there knocked out the Champions League in midweek?
Bernardo still will be usually so dependable,
but gives away a penalty and gets sent off.
I mean, this could have ramifications for them beyond just not winning the trophy
in a way that maybe it wouldn't for Arsenal.
Yeah, I mean, the thing is sissy is supposed to be kind of finding there
that they're supposed to find this like unshakable championship gear in the spring.
And instead they've ended up with this little wobble where they've had one win
in their last five in all competitions.
Obviously, that's, you know, that takes into account losses to Real Madrid and so on.
A domestic treble, you know, on paper is technically still in their grasp,
but it would be very surprised if it happens just because they,
this is the time of year where typically they sort of look completely unshakable
and like they kind of remember who they are.
And they don't really seem to have remembered who they are at the moment.
And if they don't do that on Sunday, then I kind of you feel as though
their season is in danger of ending up being a bit of a something and nothing.
What happens with Pep Guardiola then,
particularly if he doesn't win any trophies this season,
still a year left on his contract,
but lots of uncertainty around his future and this week around his wardrobe.
Yeah, where did that come from?
No, no, I was expecting that at all.
I did, you know, it took about psychological impacts.
Surely the players thought that was like, what?
What European champions were in that shirt?
Yeah, I mean, look, it's deja vu from a year ago in terms of sort of Pep's future
and where he's going to end up at the end of the season.
But yeah, the Champions League exit, you know,
one Champions League win in 10 years for City with six league titles.
It doesn't quite fit really.
The really interesting sort of comments from Guardiola in the week about
the Champions League on paraphrase in here,
but it was kind of like they're not everything for City.
You know, the Champions League isn't, doesn't mean as much perhaps as it should do.
Like failure is accepted more in the Champions League than it would be for a Real Madrid, for example.
And obviously, you know, it's part of Real Madrid's DNA that sort of yearning to win the Champions League.
But it's almost been the sort of opposite for City, you know,
that they've struggled to sell out Champions League matches in the past.
I think they still probably booty away for Anthem.
There's a very sort of different relationship for a fan base kind of still getting used to that domestic dominance really.
And yeah, if it's Guardiola's last season,
if he goes out trophyless for two seasons in a row, which would have been unthinkable, you know, sort of three, four years ago.
Psychologically, I think that probably does impact his decision as to whether to stay on.
Does he really go out on two trophyless seasons, for example?
I think that would be the worst possible way for him to leave Man City.
Does he really entertain that?
I think he'll probably see the potential in this team and know they're not far off where he wants them to be.
In terms of the title, probably more looking at next year rather than this year.
But yeah, if they were to lose on Sunday and then not want to try for the rest of the season,
I can't imagine Guardiola leaves on those terms.
Yeah, like a sort of fake Fergie retirement vibe.
Arsenal-wise, then, they swatted aside by a label using,
at the Emirates midweek, 2-0 on the night,
Ezra and Rice with their goals,
sensational goal from Ezra.
Kerris, it feels that Arsenal may be a found another gear.
I mean, we were talking a few weeks, maybe months ago, about them stumbling.
I'm looking through their results.
They didn't exactly stumble.
They've lost three of 53 games all season, but playing better than they have done perhaps in recent weeks.
Those goals midweek, particularly Ezra was superb.
I mean, one of the standouts of the season,
I would probably say that the confidence to take a shot on there is fantastic.
And I think it speaks to the fact that Arsenal have not let the latest kind of wave
of are they going to bottle it, shake their confidence.
You know, after those draws to Brentford and to Wolves,
they haven't let that knock them back down the gears.
I don't know if it feels to me as though they are necessarily, you know,
as though they've found like another level in the last few weeks.
It doesn't feel like that to me.
It more feels as though this is the point that just as I would expect City to start hitting their best stride,
it's the point where you might traditionally have expected Arsenal to start looking a bit shaky.
And they haven't.
They've not let the kind of individual results that could have derailed them momentum.
They haven't let that happen, which is really important.
And I think it's really important kind of on that same note for them that
if Sunday doesn't go to plan,
that they don't allow that to seep into the Premier League.
And I think they are probably in a better position to not let it do that than they have been in past years.
We've got two Arsenal supporting producers on board today, Tim.
Can you humor them and maybe make a case for them winning the quadruple?
I mean, you can kind of look at each individual trophy
and make a case for them winning each one of those four individually.
Obviously, they're in the final of the car about Cup.
They've got Southampton away in the FA Cup.
They're nine points clear in the Premier League.
And they've got sporting in the quarterfinals of Champions League,
which is undoubtedly the easiest draw they could have had out of the sort of heavyweight lineup in the Champions League.
So yeah, you can absolutely make a case for winning each of those trophies individually,
but obviously not collectively.
They don't want to trophy...
They've won one trophy in nine years for them to then win four in two months.
I mean, I do believe in sort of football fairy tales,
but I think that's a bit too much of a stretch.
If they're going to do it, you know, you want me to humor the producers,
yes, they probably need the title wrapped up ASAP,
which means that they can then concentrate on the Champions League in their FA Cup,
which means they probably need to go to the FDH and win in a few weeks.
The one thing I do sort of like for them is that in between the Champions League quarterfinals,
they've got Bournemouth at home,
because obviously, as we've seen in the last week,
you want a nice, easy fixture in between you two very hard Champions League matches.
So in between the sporting games, they've got Bournemouth at home,
and in between the semi-finals, which is probably Barcelona,
they've got Fulham at home, which is a nice opportunity again to sort of rest a few players.
And I guess the best thing you'd say about Arsenal is their ability to win matches
when they're not playing well, and this sort of relentless grind,
you know, you mentioned three defeats all season match.
But yeah, logic just says no, no way.
But I can see them winning sort of two or three for sure.
All right, I'm sure they'd take it if they won one,
and it was the league or maybe the Champions League, but we shall see.
Next, we're going to get back to Sunday's game.
We'll look at personnel and where each team could hurt each other.
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Right, in the last four seasons,
Eberigie Ezzer has averaged 0.5 goals per game in March,
April and May for contrast in autumn and winter.
He's on 0.19 goals per game scored.
Palace is winner carries in the FA Cup final at Wembley,
a game city,
unless we forget last season,
the man for the big occasion, potentially,
and a potential winner of the Alan Hardake atrophy on Sunday.
He's got a great kind of knack for these big games,
hasn't he?
Especially the ones that are sort of driven by narrative
that the North London Derby's this season,
where he's shown up for Arsenal against the club
that he almost joined instead of them against their rivals
for Palace in the FA Cup final,
and then at a time when it looked as though he may be leaving
and that will be his kind of farewell gift.
And then now he has the chance to upset Manchester City at Wembley again.
It definitely feels like it as though it could be another big afternoon for him.
Tim, you're aware of the Alan Hardake atrophy?
It strikes me.
No, just, just, sorry, just, just googling it.
This is how you know that I do too many podcasts with Matt
because I didn't even kind of flinch at that.
Brilliant.
Wow, who knew that?
It's one of my favourite quirks about the League Cup final
of which it has many,
but yeah, the Man of the Match award is called the Alan Hardake atrophy.
It's named after the old secretary of the football league.
He came up with the League Cup.
Des Walker was the first ever recipient of it.
Yes, that has a way for me to cred by in the fact that that was the year
that Forrest B ordered in the final.
Let's get back to 2026 though.
Martin Erdogard could be back in the squad this weekend.
He's a very different player to him, too, as there isn't he.
But good tab alternatives at this stage of the season.
Yeah, very different.
You're right.
I mean, wait, he's going to get one goal or season, Erdogard.
He's really kind of seven assists, I think it is.
It's not all about that for him, obviously.
You know, he makes Arsenal tick in sort of deeper positions,
more so than they say does.
But there's no doubting.
He's been sort of less influential this season.
Uh, injuries don't help.
But there was a time when If Erdogard was missing a domestic Cup Final
for Arsenal sort of two, three years ago, it would have been disastrous.
And it would be like, what's the game plan then?
How do we win this without him?
But yeah, that's not the case now.
Not just because he's dropped down a level in performance,
but yeah, Erdogard and obviously Damien and Sakenau can play centrally
and Madureka being an option really helps.
And that's exactly what Arthetta wanted and asked for last summer.
He said their squad was not big enough or sort of tough enough to cope
with the demands of multiple competitions.
And this is what's so great about this Arsenal team this season is that
what he wanted, he was given by the board with the sign is they made last summer.
And it's all, as it stands, on March 20th,
it's all working extremely well and to plan.
So yeah, if I had to go, it doesn't start on Sunday
and I know there's some data about that.
It doesn't diminish their prospects of winning the match for me,
which is something you would not have said a couple of years ago.
About Max Downe and Kerris, I'm not sure if you're aware of this,
but he's only 16 years of age.
Do you think there's any chance that he might get a few minutes?
Yeah, a few minutes for sure.
I think it depends on the game state.
Downe is still someone who the talent is undeniably there,
that the goal for him against Everton,
a huge moment and a very memorable moment in his career.
I'm sure and in Arsenal's season if all ends up going to plan,
or about a memorable even if all doesn't go to plan in the Premier League,
but one that will be sort of in that BBC title winning montage if they do.
Yeah, he's someone who can bring that kind of,
I hesitate to say X factor because I hate it,
but I can't think of another word for it right now,
that technical quality and that unpredictability in moments,
perhaps against tired legs.
I don't think even the most kind of away with the fairies fan would suggest
that there's any case for him to be starting this game.
I think that is still fortunately something where we're keeping,
or keeping our feet on the ground a little bit,
but definitely to see him come off the bench,
and if he can play a role for Arsenal in a piece of silver,
then that is a really positive thing for their season
and for the club as a whole and it's trajectory.
Yeah, not expecting the kind of 2007 final,
the World Cup lining up for Arsenal vibe from Max Damond this year.
On City, Tim, miserable defeat for the midweek.
They did get a goal from Erling Harland though,
not exactly one for the scrapbook from him.
There's no chance that he doesn't start for City on Sunday.
I mean, I can barely believe I'm asking the question,
but he has been out of form.
Yeah, I'm not sure, sort of, Marmouche
does enough to make a compelling case to sort of come in for him.
He hasn't quite kicked on as you sort of hoped he would do.
I mean, it's not an unusual drop off for Harland.
He does tend to sort of start a season like a steam train
and then springtime is slightly less prolific,
but it's a huge drop off.
He scored five in 18 this calendar year.
Before that, as in sort of August onwards,
he's called 38th for club and country
from August to the end of December.
So to go from 38 in a few months to five in three months
is insane, really.
So I think you're right to ask the question, Matt.
You're not, you're not wrong to query
whether he should start.
But I think he will.
I mean, I think, and it's Arsenal
and the beef factor is high.
XB, pretty high for him against Gabrielle.
You know, I think he scored in his last three against Arsenal.
So yeah, he has to start.
I guess from a city point of view,
you hope that the mere sight of Gabrielle's face in the tunnel
just gets him riled up,
which you think it probably will do.
Yeah, fair chance of that, I think.
So Harland will probably start, Kerry.
Mark Gay definitely won.
He's cupped out because he's already played in the competition
for Crystal Palace.
He's going to come in for him.
Yes, a massive shock, though.
That apparently wasn't injustice, though.
It was that he would be cupped.
I'd fortunately, we have all seen sense and stuck with that
as it is a rule that no one could claim to be surprised by.
But anyway, small rant over on that.
I think I wonder if the fact that Ruben Diaz
was withdrawn at half-time against Real Madrid
is probably potentially a bit of an indicator
that he might be going in there.
There's someone who is clearly kind of earning slash earned
Guardiola's trust,
but has he faced this sort of occasion before?
I can't bring to mind whether he's kind of featured
in finals like this for them before.
He's still a very young player.
So I would imagine Diaz kind of
being taken off at half-time against Real Madrid
would indicate he'll be starting perhaps on the left
and then John Stone's for that kind of experience
coming in on the right,
but it's good for Guardiola
that he's got three solid options,
all of whom have had relatively decent minutes recently
to pick from, you know,
the fact that Gave wasn't going to be available.
That's not like it's an injury that's come up this week
is not a surprise.
And then it's something that I'm sure they will have
extensively planned and prepared for.
Interesting selection dilemmas for both, Tim,
in goal as well, aren't they?
Because you generally, clubs generally play
their number two in this competition,
but it's one thing to do that, you know,
in the first round way to a league one club.
It's a different thing to do it in the final.
James Trafford and Kepper Aretha Belaga then.
I mean, Kepper's got to start just because of his rich
league cup final heritage, doesn't he?
Yeah, it's his competition.
He's intrinsically linked with the Eiffel Cup.
Yeah, maybe they'll name the Alan Hardacre Trophy
or rename it to the Kepper Trophy.
But yeah, it's a difficult sort of concept to explain
to a non-football fan that you've got a huge game at Wembley.
There's a trophy on offer,
and neither manager will pick his best goalkeeper for that match.
Why does that make any sense?
Just because you want to be nice to them.
You know, they've sort of deserved it for training hard
all year.
I'm not a fan of it, Tim.
I mean, if James Trafford starts the match
and then in the opening ten minutes,
he plays the ball out from the back rather nervously
in Giacores Pances, and it's 1-0 to Arsenal in this game over.
That just becomes a ridiculous thing to have done.
I remember on one of the very few occasions my team played
in a match of similar stature in an Eiffel Cup semi-final,
they played their backup keeper as John Ruddy,
and he sort of let the winner under his body in extra time,
and I was cursing Nuno's decision not to put Rupert Tritio.
Portugal's number one European Championship winning goalkeeper
in goal for that match.
So yeah, if you've got Donna Rupert sat on the bench
for a penalty shootout, or you know what I mean?
He's much more likely to be a match winning goalkeeper.
So I just, I don't get it, Matt.
I don't get it.
You play your best team, surely.
That's also quite an interesting point as well, isn't it?
If it is that both teams start their cup goalkeepers
and this does go to penalties, would you, like,
would you be bringing Donna Rupert on for the shootout?
At that point, would you be bringing Ryer on for the shootout?
Probably not Ryer.
I don't know, but yeah, Donna Rupert for sure.
I think you'd have to, wouldn't you?
He's much more likely to win than the shootout, I think.
Yeah, it's a good question.
What would you do?
I think, yeah, it's a funny one, because in a way,
it's exactly the same logic as second-choice goalkeeper
starting the game in the first place.
You know, how far does your trust and your willingness
to reward them for what they've done to getting you
to that point in the competition?
If it extends to a, to starting the final,
why would it not extend to a penalty shootout?
And the answer there is, is quite obvious.
It's just like, it's the argument behind not letting them start
the final, ratcheted up a notch.
But yeah, I would be interested to see what Guardiola
in particular would do in that situation.
Well, Kepper's penalty from the final against Liverpool
a couple of years ago that he took 2022.
That landed in my back garden last week.
So, I'm not sure it'll be up for taking one,
but he did.
He got brought on in the last minute of stoppage
of extra time in the Super Cup in 2021, didn't he?
When Chelsea won that, and he was the keeper for the penalty shootout.
So, interesting, yeah, we shall see.
Also, the possibility of seeing Bacchio Sackett
take a penalty against Donna rummer at Wembley
as in the final of the euros.
Sorry, that's quite triggering for me.
That might be for you to listen to.
Who's going to win on Sunday, then, Tim?
Nevermind who's going to play and go.
Who's lifting the trophy?
I think...
It feels like a first goal wins match to me, potentially.
Some of the matches between these two have not been classics
in recent years.
EFL Cup Finals do tend to be quite entertaining
to maybe that balance is that out.
But I think it's probably a narrow arsenal win.
I think that's the smart prediction.
Okay, and we're waiting to see you.
You get to the Alan Hardake.
Carey, what do you reckon?
Yeah, similarly, I think quite often semi-finals
in this competition are some of the worst games
that you will watch all season.
And then the final kind of throws up some sort of
fun quirk that makes it a bit more enjoyable.
But yeah, I agree with Tim.
Actually, I think that the way I would see this going
is probably 2-1 arsenal.
So neither team keeps a clean sheet,
so he gives themselves some hope.
Maybe it's as a wonder goal.
Who knows?
Maybe it's a Max Downman off the bench,
wander strike into the top corner.
Or maybe they just score the winner
from a set piece.
And that would be more fun for everyone.
All right, it's 430 UK time on Sunday for that one.
We're going to take a quick break.
And when we come back, we'll turn our attention
to the Premier League.
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we show you how you can play in a different league this season.
James Mackey's back with us.
This is James before we get to our main event.
Let's talk about last week's winner, shall we?
Yes, let's talk about it.
Yeah, there's three winners we've had so far.
Matt this year.
Nice, sure, prize at 3-1.
Bruno Fernandez,
he can't stop assisting at the moment.
Can he was for him to score or assist?
BTTS in the game.
And man, you know, to win to Karen,
they're good ones.
So a 3-1 winner, and hopefully we can,
we can back that up this week.
Yeah, let's hope so.
So it's the Carabell Cup final.
We've been talking about it on the pod
that we're looking at.
What are the match odds?
Same for this one.
Yeah, a huge game, Matt, on Sunday in the league
Cup final, seeing the first bit of silverware
for English clubs and potentially the start,
the quadruple dream for Arsenal,
who are the six to five favourites to win the game
in the normal time.
And you can see why I have been lost
just one of the last five meetings
in Manchester City at Wembley Stadium.
But on the flip side,
the gunners have lost more finals than any other side,
most recently in 2018 against Manchester City.
So contrasting stats there.
City of the outside is at 7-4.
But of 1-8 of their nine league Cup finals,
with only Liverpool win the competition more often
at to get that in there.
The draw in 90 minutes is priced at 15 to 8.
And you would not be surprised
if this went to extra time,
and penalties would do,
it's going to be a really tight game.
And three of the last four meetings
between the two sides have finished in a draw.
So look, the odds are skewed towards us at the moment,
but it's very tight in the market.
Yeah, looks like it will be a game decided by five margins,
or maybe by either side Maverick players
and both of those featuring this week's Bet Builder.
Yeah, they do.
Like we said, we're trying to get two out of two this week.
Just picking two players, one from each side
that I think could change the game for both.
So the Bet Builder this week is seeing two selections
and we'll start with Erebritchi Esay for Arsenal.
He scored Crystal Palace's winner against Manchester City
in the 2025 FA Cup final.
He could become the third player to score against an opponent
in both a league Cup and an FA Cup final.
He has four goals in his last seven games.
He's a hundred to thirty to score any time that for Arsenal.
I thought that represented a bit of value.
So that can kick off the Bet Builder.
But for City, Rainchirk,
I've been really impressed by him this season.
He's been involved in four goals in his four league Cup appearances
from Manchester City, three goals and one assist,
averaging a goal involvement once every 47 minutes
in the competition.
He's 21 to 10 to either score or assist in the game.
So overall, adding those two selections together
comes out around a 10 to 1 Bet Builder
and the beauty of the two score or assist
any time goal score a market is that there is a safe sub
attached to it, meaning that if that leg of the bet
hasn't won and the player comes off,
the player that replaced them carries on that leg of the bet.
So fingers crossed, we can make it to our tumor.
Yeah, let's hope so.
James, appreciate your time.
Enjoy the weekends, actually.
This is the Athletic FC podcast,
proudly sponsored by Bet there.
Now, the race for Champions League football
took another turn last weekend.
Manchester United moved into a pole position,
after they beat Astonville, a Liverpool held to a one-on-dour
at Amfield by Spurs and Chelsea lost at home
to Newcastle.
Kerris, you and I were in attendance at Stanford Bridge
to see a bad week get even worse for the Blues hammered
by PSG, three nil on the night, eight to on aggregate.
They had a great five minutes and then it all went wrong.
Do you have a theory as to why they collapse so spectacularly?
It's funny, you should ask Max,
I actually wrote a piece about it yesterday.
Do you feel as though there are gaps in how the players
are understanding your tactics
or do you think it's just execution?
No, it's not tactics, it's moments.
I'm inclined to agree with him.
I think the way that PSG play and their qualities
in terms of their speed and their ruthlessness
are perfectly aligned to Chelsea's weaknesses
in terms of how open they look on the counter at times,
kind of what happens when, as Mamadu Sah was against
Karate Scalia or as Wesley Fafana was against Anthony Gordon,
when sort of one of their defenders gets isolated
against a speedy attacker at the moment,
which is happening too often.
It's these moments that are costing them
and then you can argue at what point does that many moments
become a link back to the tactical system
and it's a bit of a chicken and a kind of thing.
But yeah, it's the lack of concentration and focus
and I think occasionally of understanding
exactly what they should be doing in the press.
For example, I think the absence of Reese James
probably doesn't help that in terms of having
that sort of vocal figure.
Instructing teammates on the pitch,
same with Trevor Chalibur who picked up that injury
against PSG and is now,
I think we're looking at about six weeks out for him.
Rossini said yesterday that's a real blow for them.
Two of their kind of more senior players
who you might sort of turn to for that leadership
in making sure everyone is doing their jobs
and his concentrating is picking up runners
and so on.
It was quite the spectacular collapse against PSG.
They will not play.
A team was good as that this season again,
which I'm sure will come as a huge relief to them,
but the issues it exposed carry over
into the Premier League.
Maybe they won't play a team that good again,
but I'm just looking at their upcoming Premier League fixtures.
They're at the dick on Saturday.
You'll be there with them,
obviously not that far away from them in the table
and then back-to-back home games against the two Manchester clubs.
They've not left themselves much margin
for much more error in the Premier League
if they're going to get back into the Champions League next season.
Yeah, they've got a really difficult run in
which isn't a surprise to them.
The fact that they're coming up directly against Manchester United
and against Liverpool,
two of the teams that they're competing for these European spots
for is far from ideal.
But then again, one of probably their best performances
and results under a senior was that 4-1 win against Dustin Villa.
It's not tending to be the games against direct rivals
that you sort of peg as the decisive ones
where they are having their decisive mess-ups.
It's against your leads.
Your Bern Lee, your Wolves.
It's a really sort of odd situation
where that concentration maybe,
I think, doesn't seem to be there.
The urgency doesn't seem to be there.
If I was receiving or I'd be less worried about making sure
my team concentrates against Manchester United and Manchester City
because I think they will
and more about making sure they concentrate,
for instance, in sort of the game against Tottenham,
against Sunderland even on the final day of the season.
Those are ones right.
I feel they could slip up.
Tim, what did you make of Enzo Fernandez post-match comments
following the PSG game casting doubt
over his Chelsea future?
Just what you want from the man who's going to captain you
for the rest of the season.
Yeah, I was really surprised Matt to hear those sort of comments
from Enzo.
Yes, big shock to hearing
with signs of sort of disloyalty.
Yeah, I mean, it's classic Gimme Your Next Show
50K a week kind of chat, really.
It's been three years since I signed him.
Which is unbelievable to me.
A hundred million, three years ago.
No, it doesn't feel like it's been around for three years.
But I mean, look, he's an excellent attacking midfielder
who's greater arriving in the box as a decent.
Excellent.
Well, in an attacking sense, I think.
I think you can sort of take play in that final third
when the circumstances are right.
Decent goal record this season.
But as an all round player, especially off the ball,
nowhere near as strong as sort of Chelsea need him to be.
I think, look, if he wants out genuinely,
then if they can get a decent amount of that money back for him,
I would take it.
I think Chelsea can do better to be honest on quite a few fronts.
Yeah.
The problem that they got is trying to make a profit on him,
I suppose.
But that's maybe a question for another day.
Elsewhere, point ahead of Chelsea Liverpool.
They go to Brighton Saturday's early kick off there.
Two points then ahead of Liverpool.
Our Villa, they host West Ham.
And leading those Champions League Chases are Manchester United.
They go to Bournemouth on Friday night.
It's basically the battle to be the least worst.
Is it Carissa or is that a bit harsh on Man United?
I think it's a little bit harsh on Man United.
I would rephrase as least slip ups or least upsets,
suffering the least upsets perhaps.
Manchester United with that win last weekend.
They've definitely put themselves in a really strong position.
And it is feeling increasingly as though it is Chelsea,
Aston Villa and Liverpool who are kind of fighting out for two spots
between three rather than previously.
It felt like we were looking at sort of four teams fighting it out
for the three spots.
That's not to say it's done and dusted from Manchester United
by any means, but they've certainly put themselves
in a strong position.
But again, where these teams are all letting themselves down
isn't generally in the games against each other.
It's in the games against teams that maybe they would expect to be beating
which presents some potential for fun over the last few weeks
and a very unpredictable end to the season.
Maybe a slight advantage to him for Chelsea now
that they're out of Europe and they're a Liverpooler still in it.
Potentially.
I guess the whole kind of everybody slipping up
it just speaks to the flawed nature of these sides,
particularly Liverpool and Chelsea.
And I guess the strength and depth of the Premier League this season.
But if Villa don't get it, they'll be kicking themselves.
You know, they were in such a strong position a few weeks ago.
I know they've had their injury problems,
but they get in most of the team back now.
You know, we've seen in the past Emory's very good at combining
sort of Premier League and European competitions
and they've got a really good run on paper
so that Villa's run now is West Ham, Forest,
Sunderland, Fulham, Spurs and Burnley.
That's a really good run.
I know that some of these teams are fine for their lives,
but then they play Liverpool and City to finish.
So yeah, I would still backfill as to get back into it.
I think they've got a second win in them somewhere.
I'd say what?
You know, we haven't mentioned Brentford
and nobody is talking about Brentford,
but if they're the one on Monday,
they're tuning up at home to a very good Wolfside.
And they would have been on 47 if they'd won that one point behind Chelsea
and we would all be including them in conversation,
but we're not.
So I have the potential to get back into it for sure
as the other sort of stumble over themselves for the rest of season.
Yeah, just one win in the last five games for Brentford,
maybe just losing a little bit of steam.
All right, when we come back,
we're going to talk about a seriously super Sunday in the Premier League.
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This is the Athletic FC Podcast, proudly sponsored by Betfair.
And before the Carabaul Cup final, we've got three huge games of time.
We're Darby kicking things off.
Newcastle hosting Sunderland at midday.
And the black cats can leapfrog the magpies with the win.
So there's a big one for the animal kingdom as well as local rivalries.
What do you reckon Tim?
Is this the worst possible fixture for Newcastle after the new camp in midweek
or is it the perfect antidote?
I mean, I guess we'll know it two o'clock.
Yeah, depending on how they play.
We'll rewrite it and frame it in either of those manners.
Expecting this to sound like a great match.
But not look like a great match.
Like the atmosphere is going to be incredible.
But if you remember the reverse fixture, it was a shocker.
11 shots between them.
Three on target.
I think it was the lowest combined XG of any Premier League match this season.
So we're not expecting a classic from a, you know, a purest point of view.
And also, I mean, they're almost sort of both at their lowest steps of the season.
You can make a case for Sunderland in a real rut.
Four points from six out of the FA Cup.
Newcastle, I mean, they had that tremendous win at Chelsea last weekend.
But, you know, anything that's just shipped seven, no matter who the opposition is,
they're not going to be in a good moment as people like to say.
So yeah, it's going to, you know, it's got all the hallmarks of a rowdy one-all draw, basically.
But completely watchable.
You have to see it.
I was thinking, Kerry, one Nils Sunderland, one red card, nine yellows.
I think nine yellows might be pushing it a little bit.
But that sort of a game, yeah.
I mean, I think the thing for Newcastle is, I guess looking at, you know,
the table in front of me, the Europa League and Conferencing are still in their reach.
But in terms of competing on the same, they are not anywhere near the same position
as they were last season in terms of kind of the race for champions league.
I mean, they're not in it.
So the difficulty for them is kind of, they won't have a challenge getting up for this game, right?
It's a derby.
It's not difficult to rally the troops for that, especially back at St James's Park for the first time in ages.
But for the rest of the season, I guess it's whether they can take that kind of pleasure in improving everyone wrong about the season being a right off.
And whether they can kind of find it in themselves to make that progress up towards the European spots.
But the danger is that it just ends up drifting.
I think the win against Chelsea should really help them avoid that.
That was a reminder of of what they can do and that they can compete with these top sides.
But it is coming far too late for them to be in the conversation for top four, top five.
Yeah, looks like it.
Newcastle central and noon.
Then then at quarter pass to Villa West Ham and Spurs against forest, huge games in the fight for survival.
This one about us must win as it gets for free.
Gore Tudor.
Isn't it Tim?
I mean, they beat at let's go Madrid on the night in midweek.
They got a point at Amfield.
So he's in a better position than he was this time last week.
But first goal feels massive in this one.
I think.
Yeah, no, definitely.
I mean football moves quickly.
But she's like, you know, a week ago on this very podcast, we were we were growing.
How many hours Igor Tudor had left?
Not not not matches or weeks or the rest of season.
Yeah, and now he's the man to keep him up apparently.
And he hasn't even won a meaningful match yet.
You know, they drew last week and then they won.
But obviously lost ultimately against athletic and the week.
And then also a week ago fans were planning mass protests for this matches for this match against forest.
And now they're going to line the route with flares and they're going to cheer the boys on.
I mean, literally you cannot you cannot predict what this got what this sport is going to throw up.
Spurs obviously much improved performances arguably should one Amfield and they looked a lot better in the week.
Their desire has returned.
God knows where it went, but it's back.
Tactically, they look better for at the back suits them injured players returned.
And all of a sudden you saying they're strong favorites for this match.
But I think what you would say is that the pressure was off at Amfield.
It was a free hit.
It felt like a free hit.
And the pressure was off against Athletico again, a free hit.
They're three goals down.
This is where the pressure really, really lands.
But what they just feel like they're going to have the crowd with them.
I think even if they go one kneel down to forest early on, they're going to have the crowd with them.
And the tide has definitely turned.
But having gone to went to city ground last week and that and forest were.
Shoddy, I don't really see how they go to Spurs and win.
But I don't really see how any of the things have happened in the last week.
So yeah, God knows what's going to happen.
I think if Vittor Pereira's forest could play all their games away, but in Europe,
they probably have quite a good chance.
Kerr estate, they march gloriously into the quarterfinals of the Europa League on Thursday.
And no way out by the fact that Midgetland missed all their penalties in the shootout.
I mean, should give them a big boost in all seriousness.
Shouldn't it? They made nine changes for the game.
They did bring some some of the usual big hitters on on the hour mark.
So minutes in legs may be.
But the fact they got through that tight can only be a good thing, can't it?
Please tell me it can only be a good thing.
I was going to say phrased incredibly neutrally.
March gloriously hot is a turn of phrase that no one else can get away with.
The way that the minutes have been handled.
I guess there will be some tiredness, but hopefully for them,
the number of changes that were made will kind of mitigate for that.
And it was a great thing to do in a really big game, but has paid off.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of this really depends on the first goal.
I mean, as Tim sort of mentioned, the thing from the fans about,
let's really get behind the team.
We're really going to do it this time.
We're really going to get behind them. We're really going to support them.
That's great.
That's the right idea, but I would be amazed to see how long it lasts.
If for a one in a lap inside 15 minutes,
I think that that stadium has shown its capacity to turn toxic incredibly quickly.
And it can just become this cauldron in the worst way.
You are rather than cooking the opposition in your cauldron.
You are in there yourself.
So yeah, it's certainly go into it as favourites.
But again, as Tim said, these past two results, they've been free hits.
They've been in completely depressurised situations.
This is probably the biggest game of Tottenham season.
In terms of the fight to stay up, it feels like the turning point at which
it could really start feeling as if it hasn't already as though
relegation is a looming over the horizon rather than this sort of shadowy thing in the distance.
So yeah, Spurs go into its favourites.
How they deal with the pressure of that and how the crowd responds.
If it doesn't go to plan, I think will be two really important factors.
OK, I wasn't going to bite, but I've heard the term Spurs go into this as favourites three times
in this section of the show.
So we'll just say they've won two home Premier League games all season,
one of which was against Burnley on the opening day.
And then I'll move on to Villa versus West Ham.
Tim, this is a big opportunity for West Hamers.
And it will have played on Thursday night.
West Ham have had a free week and their mood is in stark contrast to Villa's right now
in the Premier League at least.
Yeah, and amongst the teams fighting out at the bottom,
I think West Ham have currently got the best sort of trajectory.
They're on a sort of an upward curve.
The fans have responded and are sort of behind Nuno now.
I've been really impressed with them recently.
And their Man City game last weekend, they had one shot all match,
a header from Maverapannas, which they scored,
and then just defended for their lives.
But to hear the crowd with them was really sort of noticeable for me
because that is not a stadium that fully gets behind their team.
You know, even as recent as a couple of weeks ago,
but they were extremely supportive and positive,
and they sort of understood the assignment
of not even having a shot against City barely for 90 minutes.
So yeah, it feels like from nowhere,
they have become sort of united,
and Nuno's improved them defensively.
They had that big blip at Liverpool where they lost 5-2.
But otherwise in their other five matches recently in the league,
they've only conceded two goals,
which is very, very good for a team that's, you know,
in massive trouble at the bottom end of the table.
Some of them being out is a big blow.
I think if they had him in the scoring form he was in before his injury,
they could really get to Villapark and win.
Not sure that's still necessarily the case,
but they're my favourites to stay up at the moment.
They're in a good moment as, again,
as other people, apparently a lot to say,
but I do, too, apparently.
A couple of games we haven't touched on.
Full and McGain's Burnley is the only game, Caris,
that you can't watch in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland on telly,
this weekend, which is sort of low-key dig at them, really, isn't it?
And it's going to get even worse for them because I'm going to ask you,
if you think that Bertie the B, or Billy the Badger,
is the most terrifying mascot.
I mean, this is the most easiest tapping of the whole pot, isn't it?
The Burnley mascot is genuinely sinister.
The Badger's just a Badger.
I think I would encourage people to go and look at the two up
because I think the Badger's terrifying.
It's the sort of, like, little connection between the patches around the eyes
and the mouth that are giving, sort of, like,
joker clown makeup sort of vibes.
The B is also not great.
I'm obsessed with, primarily,
club's ability to take what should undoubtedly be, you know,
cute-looking animals and render them,
like they look like something that is due to be possessed by the spirit of a child in a horror film.
So, in answer to your actual question,
which I can't believe I'm answering,
I'd probably, you know, if I had to choose one to run away from,
I'd probably rather be the B.
Okay, I mean, I think the B would probably be quicker than the Badger,
but hey, let us know what you think, listener.
Leeds against Brenton.
This is Saturday at eight o'clock, as we mentioned,
Bradford could go level on points with Chelsea this weekend.
Tim, is it just the forest talking,
then when I say that Leeds are still in trouble?
In no engine five, no goals in three.
Paul Fulham, by the way, whenever I'm on this podcast,
Fulham just get rinsed by, you know, they've actually done exist.
I don't know if it's you or producer Jay,
but someone's got to be through Fulham.
Yeah, Leeds, I guess they've stalled really, haven't they?
They've stopped scoring.
Calvert Lewin had that incredible run of seven and six before Christmas,
but he's only scored a couple, I think, this calendar year
and fans are sort of asking for Daniel Farker to take the handbrake off
and have a bit more of a tacking approach, maybe sort of front.
They probably need one of the ingenious tactical switches
like you did at Man City away, which sparked a great run before Christmas
because at the moment, they'd been dragged into it unwillingly.
Farker says they need six to eight points to stay up,
which would put them on 38 to 40.
I wouldn't be making a public statement saying that's all we need
because we'll see improvements from forest and spurs
in the last few weeks.
You always get crazy results at this time of year.
I'm not quite sure that that will be enough and West Ham
on the last day for Leeds.
Looms very, very large indeed.
Yeah, they need something to change
because they're really getting dragged out at the moment.
That's England's dominant Calvert Lewin
that you're talking about there, Tim.
So, you know.
Blimey.
Careful.
One goal from open place.
It's the 28th of December.
Good enough for Thomas Tookult.
Well, it'd be good enough for Leeds.
We shall see.
And just like that, we're at the end of today's show
an amazing weekend of football coming up.
Enjoy it if you can.
Listen to my thanks to Karris and Tim
and producers Jane John and to you for listening.
I have a great weekend.
We'll catch up with you again soon.
You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.
The producers were Jay Beale and John Rogers
and the presenter was Matt Davis Adams.
The executive producer is Eddie Morehead.
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including our dedicated club shows,
search for the Athletic in all the usual places.
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