The Ultimate Porkies Course Preview with David Clark, Experienced Hiker and Backpacker

0:00Hello everyone and welcome to the new podcast. My name is Coach Lindsay and we're here with Coach Loretta and a very special guest and I want to let Loretta introduce Mr. David Clark. Yes, I want to welcome David Clark. I actually met him through a Facebook book group. I was intrigued because he had a really detailed blog about his journeys in the Upper Peninsula and so today we're going to talk a little bit about the Porky's Race again. We had a conversation with Kyle a few weeks ago but now we're going to dig into it a little bit more. So David Clark is from Michigan. So he is currently residing in Grand Rapids and he is a math professor at Grand Valley State University but he spent a lot of time in the UP going to college at Michigan Tech and traversing all the trails in the Wilderness Parking Park. I'm not sure I said that right but hey so I was really

1:02intrigued when I found out he did every trail. He's an avid backpacker hiker and so we're excited to learn every little single detail of this trail because I'm getting ready to do it so I want to have all these details. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. I love the Porkies, the Porky Pine Mountains. They are probably my favorite place to hike and backpack in Michigan and I'm so excited that you all are going to get to see like tons and tons of the best parts of the park. Right I'm excited to and since we did our last episode the course has changed a little bit. Michelle and the crew went to the UP and they were doing some test runs out there and they decided they really wanted to include a waterfall so I had to quickly send the update to David because he was already reviewing the course and then I'm like wait we've got to change. So I hope it's a good change and we were talking a little bit about that because it could potentially we might hit it when it's still dark out since we're starting at 6 a.m. Central time. So Michelle and I were talking about that that time thing too and see like how can we make it so we can see it a day like.

2:03Yeah well I think some of the great news is there's actually several good waterfalls along the trail and you're going to hit them at all different times of day so yeah there's lots to see you know if there's one thing we can talk all the details of the trails but for anyone who has never been to the porcupine mountains before there is so much to see and like I realize this is bad advice for a race I hope you stop and enjoy the sights. Take your rest they're going to be great places to do it. It'll be hard not to stop for some photos along the way I've just been watching so many photos on Facebook with the different groups and it just seems amazing. I think we're going to be a little early for the fall colors probably on September 19th which is a bummer but it'll still be beautiful. I would not be surprised if you would see some like a blush of colors as I look out over the landscape. Okay awesome. So let's start out and just like go through this trail as if you were hiking the whole thing and kind of give us the details and itty gritty of what to expect and so that maybe we can prepare ourselves mentally and with gear to be ready for this so it starts

3:05at the press guy al campground and then I'll let you kind of take it from there David and then Lindsay jump in whenever you have questions. I have one question before we go so I've not obviously I've never been to not obviously but for people don't know I live in LA I've never been the Michigan. I don't think and I lived in like the East Coast area and I'm familiar with some of like the East Coast trails and I've done like you know races there is Michigan one where like you can see views once you get up or is it kind of like a little more just heavily wooded once you're up on the like the peaks of things. Yeah so this this route in particular you're going to have some spots with fantastic views in a couple different directions. Now I'm going to try to call out as we go through the trail because there's some places along it like with for example there's a place called government peak you get to the top of it and there's literally no view whatsoever but there's going to be other places where there are so you'll have lots of different things. Yes I do want to say as we start

4:05going on going into this I realize from the portese backpacking Facebook group right that LaRoude you mentioned. It's always how do I describe what this trail is because everyone's experience is different right and so I guess what I would say is I mean I'm from Michigan if you are from downstate Michigan or downstate Wisconsin anywhere in Minnesota that's not really the northern portion Indiana, Illinois, Ohio anything like that this is not what you expect from Midwest trails. This is a lot more rugged it's a lot more roots rocks elevation gain lots of constant ups and downs that I'm going to call out as we go through it. On the other hand if you have ever been on an actual mountain trail okay it's called porcupine mountains it's not mountains it's not real mountains right Michigan tops out at like 1900 feet elevation and you're going to see a lot of elevation in this in this route but it's not mountains and it is it can be surprising but in different ways to

5:06different people right I love that you know what I was just out in Colorado and climbing a lot of mountains and trails out there with my daughter and she said just so you know mom the porcupine mountains is not a real mountain like well it says it's a mountain so we're going to go with it. And people will absolutely say it if you know if for anybody who has ever done aisle royal or the superior hiking trail those are probably pretty comparable if you have done more downstate parks and things like that in the Midwest very different and I'll call it some ways that that's happened. Okay that's okay. Yeah so. So. Then on the ice age trail. Only little bits of it and I'm going to say yes that that I put into the category of sort of wide dirt you know elevation changes but like kind of of even trail and this is everything in the park is much more single track narrow much more roots rocks and the constant ups and downs. I feel the ice age trail does not have the constant ups and downs. Okay that's good to know so they um ornimeal has a couple of races the kettle marine 100

6:09and the Midwest dates 100 and we ranked those before on the last less podcast and Kyle says this is definitely the hardest and then comes Midwest dates and then comes kettle. Alright yeah yeah that's good advice and you know everyone will figure it out um yeah. Yeah so let's yeah let's show you. Yeah so let's get started so we're at the start line tell us a little bit about the campground what to expect there you know some people are being bust in. And Michelle couldn't get a school bus so it's more of a luxury bus coming in to drop the top. Alright um I did get a campsite with our vans that will be camping there with our sprinter van so we'll be right there at the start which I'm happy. Awesome. No, the test. Excellent. Pretty about. Yeah press press. Skyl is one of the big touristy areas of the park by which I mean it's a popular place because there's this series of fantastic waterfalls along the press guy or river which goes right by the park or right by the campground. It's a rustic campground it's uh you know big open moderate amounts of shade. Lots of campsites near or on Lake Superior which is the huge attraction in this area.

7:14Um generally it's uh you know kind of your standard uh large large rustic campground type thing. The real attraction I think and where the race begins is along the press guy or river with these three big named waterfalls and okay anytime I talk about waterfalls in the park you're pint of mountains. Um so there's a guidebook for the porcupines by a guy named Jim Dufraine if you haven't if you haven't found it it's worth getting if you ever want to come back to the porcupines porcupines mountains wilderness state park guidebook. Oh that's a good idea. He has this he has this line which says uh and it's talking about all the different rivers in the park that they're practically made of of waterfalls right they're just constant waterfalls and downstates right for for me and Michigan meaning lower peninsula downstate any one of these waterfalls would be the centerpiece of a state park and up here they are unnamed and they're not even on the map. So there are three big named waterfalls but then there's just zillions of other ones in between on the press guy or river and every other river you're going to follow in this in this route.

8:17Um what I see on the map though is that the starting line so it's at a sort of a famous landmark the big porcupines statue thing and then it looks like we're actually following uh fairly wide level pleasant trails. It's really going to not be the kind of start that you you should expect for the rest of the trail but wide wide easy flat um in fact it looks like you might even actually be on a road for a few hundred feet right here um it says I'm looking in detail at the garment map right now but at some point pretty quick you start following along the river. I think the reason that this route doesn't stay right next to the river at the very beginning is that that's a huge built up you know boardwalks railing steps kind of situation and it's also super touristy right there so you're not going to see a ton of the river um and you're going to come up to a county road cross it on a on the actual road on pavement and then immediately go up the other side of the river like reversing course uh and this is this

9:18is I think one of the changes that we saw in the route and I think it's a great one because as you're going through about mile one and then going north up the press-style river basically backtracking on the opposite side from what you just did uh this is now the classic porcupine mountain single track routes rocks little up and down and you're going to be right along the river you're going to be able to see all the big waterfalls it's going to be a lovely little stretch of things and everyone will be fresh right so you know that's awesome and it also sounds like it gives us a wide start to get started and get settled in before we we hit the single track yeah I mean I think it's a great idea I the end where everyone's coming back to this point is going to end in a slightly different way with everyone like channeling through a suspension bridge and narrower trails and stuff and that's going to be super cool but yeah you know it'll be a very different place yeah and people at the end be much more spread out than the beginning so help factor that in and I like when faces start kind of where there's nothing worse than like knowing you want to get in a position to not get stuck in a conga line when you're going to

10:22stop feeling like I like a little bit bigger of a start that funnels into something and generally people are pretty good in the running world about knowing where they fit in the conga line so to because it's hard to pass on single track so it's nice to be able to settle into where you belong yeah you will have lots of chances to settle in in that first mile or so but I mean yeah once you get to the single track it's a little bit um I will say there actually are after like between miles one and two so there's a lot of single track but the lot of that area as is a lot of the porcupine mountains is going to be old growth and it's going to be evergreen old growth and what that means is there are some pretty open areas so like it is possible to to get around people because there's not a lot of undergrowth now there's some places are going to be super dense but this first you know mile one to two there's going to be some open areas in there good okay so I got to tell you about what happens in the next oh probably seven to ten miles

11:23you're on the Lake Superior Trail this is one of the classic trails in the park and the thing you got to think about first off the name the trail follows Lake Superior but it follows it inland a lot so like there's going to be some areas you get views of the lake but not a whole time a lot of it's just inland and the other thing is in this area there's a big bluff above Lake Superior and then it's a pretty steep descent down to a small rocky beach and the trails almost entirely up on the bluff in that area and what that means and what you I think the runners really need to take away from it is there's lots of little streams small rivers and stuff that are on this bluff and they got to get down to Lake level and how do they do that they cut a ravine right they cut a large or small little ravine that you've got to go through and so this trail is constant ups and downs because you're going into and out of these little tiny river valleys or you know a little stream things but like pretty quick after mile two you hit a couple fairly big ones they're like in

12:23the 40 to 50 foot depth area with really steep sides so like last time I was backpacking this area it was sit down and scooch down to the bottom kind of get down so bring your poles right I mean I think poles are really important for all of this and I mean I'll mention in the future there's some areas towards the end of the race where I think you're going to want to be super careful in your footing so you want poles already right but yeah couple pretty steep ravines and at the bottom of you slash through like probably six inches of water at most right pretty small not very big it might just be mud even depending on how dry it's been okay and then you go right back up really steep the other side so and then so like some of those are the bigger ones but then there's just constant like you won't even see them on the map there's going to be time constant you know you go down two or three feet into a small stream bed and you come right back up again right um so like just going down going out going down going out um it's it can wear on you pretty fast and you got to watch your footing when you do it okay but yeah so you're going along this river bluff or this uh lake

13:27bluff type area and I'm looking at the map here like maybe through miles maybe through mile four or so and that's when you hit this speaker's trail thing um and actually I have a question I'm not sure about the answer to this I see that there is a speaker's aid station and depending on where I looked it's maybe the last aid station when everyone's returning that means that it's also marked as water only so it might be available on the way out do you know if it's available on at the mile four I I don't believe it is because my understanding is our first aid station isn't about mile 17 so we're gonna go closer to the lake of the clouds so I'm assuming it mean it could be available if we go right by it that maybe we can get water both ways but I'm not positive I wouldn't count on it because I don't yeah okay I think that's good advice that yeah like don't count on this aid station that you will see on the map right away um but the good news is a lot of this even though there is this constant little up and down it's pretty flat overall right like the average is flat um and so through most of this area I'm looking at miles like three four five six

14:31even even as far as seven um things are fairly flat you're gonna hit some patches of mud it probably won't be too terrible there are some trees down over the trail that have been down so long that you just have these permanent you know volunteer trails going around them keep your eyes out it'll be okay it's a nice it's a nice start right it's overall no huge elevation changes except for those little ravines and the little bumpiness along the way so yeah I'm so I'm curious from you all right so I'm I'm dictating this like I'm a hiker um what are there are there some more running based things that you think might be helpful to know about here oh actually that's this is perfect um because I think what as a runner I look at like what's the footing like how much does it how much is run able how much is it gonna be hikeable those are the kinds of things I'm thinking in my head I feel like as a trail runner you just kind of have to go with the flow of the course whatever it might bring you would you agree Lindsay yeah and I just listening to the the description of the course these trail it sounds like kind of like one of the trails I run in LA where it's nothing like crazy large

15:36climbs at once it's kind of a lot of rollers so far um for anyone listening that is not super familiar with this type of trail running this is the trail running type that really fatigues your legs fast so like for me like I can climb you know miles at a time and be much more fresh than like smaller hills that are you know steep like you were saying but you know a little bit less in elevation gain so just remember that like even though you might not be climbing a ton early like just conserve a little bit because these up and down are the ones that really destroy my legs like it's for sure the hardest type of trail for me so remember that going into it and I think if you are worried if you need poles uh as David was saying like bring your poles there might be a couple of slick spots at the beginning and climbing and not the things to save your legs too yeah and I like that you said that because I was told like the 17 miles the first 17 miles it looks fairly flat but they're like don't underestimate that for 17 miles and like some rear yeah do not underestimate it I mean this is it is a rough stretch for a backpacker because you got that extra

16:42weight and you're constantly going up and down I mean if you're adding speed to it yeah that's that's the other thing there are absolutely going to be stretches where you could sprint out right if you wanted to but you just keep your eyes ahead of you right watch for the next thing coming up I'm going to give another example of the type of thing to watch out for here um right at mile seven you cross pinkerton creek which is by the way it's a beautiful creek um that's one of the larger ones to pass and it's got a larger valley than a lot of these other ones and the valley like the the slope going down into it and back out of it they're steep um do not expect switchbacks in the porches there are a few in a couple places but mostly the trail just goes straight down and straight up so be ready for that and this particular area has very clayy like red clay um lofts and slippery right so if it is at all wet and your feet are going to be wet because pinkerton's big enough that there's going to be water in it no matter what um it's going to be slick so watch out for that and you're going to hit that coming end going and so when you're real tired at the end and you

17:45slash through the water again you got to climb that clay hillside uh you know use your poles be careful so yeah and I think it's just the obvious here but I get asked all the time as a coach when people race in the Midwest like oh can I get away with a road shoe even though it's on a trail bring your shell shoes yeah yeah you you want you want some traction and and probably maybe even gators it sounds like with the mud and stuff might be nice to have some gators on yeah it depends on how you feel there's absolutely going to be splashing through through water and so like you're going to get wet no matter what I mean I hike in in lone peaks right so um that's the right level attraction for me but like I've just leaned into that they're going to get wet we're going to squish for a while and then you're going to dry so and that's okay yeah yeah and maybe have a pair at your drop bag or with your clue in case you need to change shoes and starting to have some issues yeah yeah so let's I'm looking at get around week week uh mile eight right here um you do so something starts to happen

18:46in this area I've mentioned these um these like small ravines so like you know two or three foot drive yeah and they are they're wonderful um I think view of you out over Lake Superior I could just sit and enjoy it all day yeah I'm going to give you another book recommendation so I mentioned Jim DeFranze uh working pine mountain state park trail guide uh there's another one that's harder to get but it's well worth trying to find called the the last working pine mountains companion it was written by uh rafferty and sprig I think are the last names there's a couple of of um um I'm losing the word right now a couple of rangers in the park um it's less of a trail guide it's more of like all sort just all sorts of tidbits and knick-knacks and stuff oh um they've got a section where they're like we believe that uh you know finding an interesting spot by as edge of a stream or a particularly nice overlook is a great reason for not going as far or as fast as you expected to they give you permission to slow down as well okay this is far enough I'm done yeah exactly this just hang out

19:46by the stream for a while it's okay enjoy the overlook uh but if we're looking on the map just after mile 17 the trail takes another turn to the right which is south south east sort of and it flattens out here a little more mud not as bad as what you've been through um goes through sort of a nice ever green area but the key is it does flatten out for a little while in this area um just about half a mile and then you come to the road and there's your very first aid station yeah um the lake of the clouds main aid station looks like there's a um also some sort of staging and cruise space further along yep yep so yeah so I mean okay so that was 17 to 18 solid miles as far as we know without any aid right um so like yeah you gotta you gotta be careful and take care of yourself right so I do have a question uh is there spots along right Lake Superior we could dip our water bottle in if we have a um yes yeah if you've got like a soil or something absolutely okay yeah I mean you're gonna be in some of these miles you are gonna be so close to Lake Superior that if the

20:48waters you know if it's a stormy day like your feet might get wet that kind of thing yeah I think I said Lake Michigan didn't I am at Lake Superior yeah the all greatest lake I'll get some plaque for that yeah I love that yeah so hopefully yeah if anyone is in a bad spot um I think every trail runner should have one of these filters anyway but they're super easy to take with you and please don't show up without one like just have one just in case yes yes yes I mean I'm gonna be going with my pack and with my bottles but I brought one of those to swap out so that when I run out I can get my water yeah and there's just to me even if I like don't absolutely need water when I come across it to me there's something so fun about just trying the water yeah oh yeah oh Lake Superior water is the best but I mean okay you do need to filter it I can't go over emphasize that you need to filter yeah I have heard people think that it's okay to drink Lake Superior water but yeah we're not saying that here yeah yeah no we're not saying that but yeah

21:53but yeah I mean you do hit the aid station so hey there's possibility of water if you haven't for 17 miles right yeah and then you got another little road segment right here so what happens is you've come to a road it's on the map it's called a hundred and seventh engineers from Lorry, Ohio, I think everyone I have ever heard calls it M107 stay highway um but what it is is the road to the park's big attraction lake of the clouds that is like the top attraction and where you top out here is sort of a level part of the road and then you turn onto this road and very quickly go up a big paved but big uphill into the parking lot and then there's a a little boardwalk very nicely built up section out to an overlook over lake of the clouds gorgeous lake and so at the top of that you got cruise space or something like that right this parking area but I think the thing to sort of know through here is it's a Saturday it's fall and this is the top attraction in one of Michigan's very top tourist sites you're gonna be you're

22:54gonna be seeing a lot of people and they're gonna be people who are kind of unhappy to be going you know 200 feet mildly uphill so like just you know yeah I have been I have been inter internally ornary at them before but be kind be kind right so as we run by you'd be like grumble grumble or to the speaker now at the runners at the people who are like this is too hard uphill yeah so it looks like the trail actually will take you to the overlook and I sure hope that happens um that this particular route the overlook is solid bedrock it's in like little tears going up and down over the lake so I mean great fantastic viewpoint this is a place to even though you just haven't made station this is a place to stop and look so trail turns starts head and east and this is now the escarpment trail and so my personal opinion is this is Michigan's very best trail I mean I think this is you should not miss it and the good news is you're not going to so it starts out a little odd go down some I call them like long steps this is where like you know

23:59some boards have been built into like a you know eight foot long thing filled with gravel to try to even out a hillside a bit go down a bunch go up a bunch um but pretty quick what happens is you start getting to this trail that's running along the top edge of a ridge so the escarpment is what it's called in the park um big very tall like four to five hundred foot drop on your right um long slow descent that you have just previously climbed on your left um and you really are in a lot of this area going to be running right along the edge of the ridge uh so fantastic spectacular views over lake of the clouds and other interior parts of the park um and also watch your feet but uh it's gonna do it's gonna do something and if you're looking at the elevation profile what starts happening is there's lots of more noticeable bumps going on in the elevation profile so you've just done a big long grind of an uphill now it's um up onto the edge of the ridge and then a little dip down as the trail sort of goes slightly away from the ridge down off of the sharp bit back up again um

25:02and those little downhill portions can sometimes be mud a year slip rear leaf covered probably at this time of year um and then up again and then a little down and you go up even more and down not quite as much and up even more and so you're gaining and gaining and gaining as you go along the ridge here um this is so yes spectacular lots of places to stop for a good picture um up there are any pictures along the way Lindsey yeah I don't know like yeah yeah yeah watch this all unfolds I think that everybody who has ever been to the lake of the clouds overlook which is the thing right at mile 19 has the exact same photo but they're all amazing like it's just one of those things um yeah and so like through mile 20 you're following along the lake um mile 21 you'd have a big downhill to sort of a saddle in the middle of this ridge um and there's a a little side trail here which doesn't matter too much and then you go right back off the other side of the saddle again um and you're following along the ridge again at this point your past the lake and you're seeing there's a big river below you you can look to the interior highlands of the park um

26:06the September 19th right so I even though it's early for fall colors like you're probably going to see a little bit out over the interior which rises up into you know this series of of highlands that are actually going to look pretty familiar to anyone familiar with like superior hiking trail solitude mountains kind of area um similar type of look but yeah you keep going through and these some of these things are named cloud peak kaya hoga peak remember is really not mountains these are high points along a ridge um and then just after mile 22 you start a big long downhill um and in the elevation profile this is really pronounced right you lose it looks like um at least 500 more feet all the way down and it is cobbles again right lots of cobbles some bedrock lots of ankle rollers um things just be especially careful about on a downhill right because like this is a fall and land on your button do something to your elbow kind of situation um so you I've been good up into your hair this is

27:07where you have me I'm terrible at descents yeah so using glue and use your poles right bring your poles they're they're so great yeah um well and of course this end of it for people who who are like hiking or day hiking be a scout meant a lot of them start at this end and the first thing they do is this 500 foot uphill on cobbles well what am I doing you all get to do a downhill at least right although I have bad news you're gonna immediately undo all of that by the way the trail continues what goes down let's go back up it sure does but first you got another aid station so the government corner aid station um and to get there you're gonna have to go all the way down to road level which means all the way down this this these cobbles and stuff um and this is a parking area once you turn around you're gonna go instead you know so you were coming in from the west so you're heading east um and then turned north and you're gonna turn around you're gonna head straight south on what's called government peak trail um and the first thing you do is you go immediately back up that same hillside that had all the cobbles and everything just pointed in a slightly different direction um

28:08so another big long uphill uh and it just keeps sort of climbing slowly for the next many miles at this point so I think that second aid station was just over four miles I think it's like the first aid station in around 17 the next one four miles out okay yes yeah they do start the aid stations are a little more frequent now although actually one there's another long gap yeah there's another long gap isn't there yeah but that's because so yeah maybe this is worth the warning so the last four miles have also been like one of the most popular parts of the park and so there's just tons of people around yeah the next yeah 12 miles are gonna be some of the least populated parts of the park right some of the most remote bits um right so that's that's worth being careful and this is also probably a good point to mention um something you will not have in the park is cell service so do not expect cell service top of the ridge the escarpments like I can usually get one bar and get a text message out yeah you got to have a different way to to communicate if you need it okay well cancel that not gonna be sent in your photos Lindsay um get a super expensive government subscription right

29:13yes yes so um yeah so now you're on government peak trail doing sort of a long slow uphill starting to get into more of the old growth parts of the park so there's lots of beautiful tall big trees trail in this area I mean it's all still single track but it's you know you start out with cobbles and then you start getting more into rocks and roots and a little bit of actual actual jerk in some places this is a pretty nice stretch through mile 24 or 25 even it follows along the big carp river it looks like a mountain stream in this area there's a there's some mud um but this is actually a pretty nice segment the uphill is slow through here um the uphill is slow there's not as many ups and downs there's not as many little stream crossings it's it is gonna be a little bit of a rest maybe kind of sort of um there is a bridged river crossing at the uh the big carp river and that's a very nice bridge through that area um and then yeah you follow the river for a little

30:15while and you get to another uh waterfalls so trap falls is just about at mile 25 at that marker um and I gotta say if you are tired at this point and you need a dip in the stream there's a huge pool underneath trap falls it's spectacular take it take a jump right so the halfway point there's a place to go down there is it's a good spot it's also got a little bench and it's a good place to just take a rest if you really need it because this is now in the middle of a pretty long stretch right yeah yeah um okay we're both coaches here David stop telling our people the rest we know sit down you get a side if I'm the the angel or the devil on the floor right you guys are the opposite but like I'm definitely saying slow down enjoy it and I'm gonna be hearing your voice through this run like yeah I mean you're you're listening to a guy who like I'll do seven or eight miles with the backpack and I'll be like yeah that's pretty good I'm solid there um but also you know this is mile 25 trap falls is a pretty nice spot to take a rest because uh the next

31:18bit you'd take a big turn to the west you're still on government peak trail um there's a long stretch is basically just a tunnel agreeing in this area and at this point I mean it could be a tunnel of slightly yellow and orange you know it could be nice in the fall but you're not in any big views you're kind of you know just single tracks through the woods through here uh it's very nice woods but it's not the spectacular views you just had uh it does get a little bit more muddy it does get a little more just ups and downs as you go over you know little bumps here and there but nothing major um this is also an area actually this whole long-last stretch is where the there campsites right next to the trail right so just be aware of that uh and then so mile 27 you go around a little swamp or something and right in between so 27 and a half is government peak and I know I said this is the beginning people that there are literal there are campsites on top of government peak none of them have any view there is nothing to see out there um i'll take a break keep running yeah i do not recommend a break at this point at all um and there's it's it's kind of neat i mean

32:25this is like i said the porkeys do not know what switchbacks are you just go straight up one side and you go straight down the other um and the elevation profile really shows that there's just enough in a down um but uh yeah it used to have a fire tower you'll see the footings up there it's kind of a nice area but there's no view so yeah um it is a place to catch a bar of cell circuits so uh and then you come down it and you cross some streams trail gets a little more muddy in this area because uh just have more swamps and small stream crossings and stuff like that so i yeah i listened to your your previous interview right with the fellow who has been working in the porkeys this summer that's fantastic and uh something i was thinking about that came up and there was um thinking about poison ivy and like do you have to worry about poison ivy and my gut reaction was like no now i've never run into i've never run into poison ivy but if you're going to it's going to happen in this segment because it's near the swamps it's a little little wetter that margins at the trail

33:26can be a little busier like it's a place to be on the lookout right um i actually talk with a few of my friends like do you ever get into poison ivy in the up and all of them were like no i've never seen that but we've seen signs and so it's possible it's possible it's out there i would say i will i will find that last track it will happen yeah um yeah so okay you go over government peak you go along some some slightly squishy areas mile 28 mile 29 um no really major elevation change in this area kind of this is more i don't want to say rolling hills but it's not a ton of ups and downs just more squishy bits in the occasional stream crossing through here some spectacular old growth though so like the whole you're in the heart of the park at this point there's lots of trees to just look up and enjoy like how hugely things are um yeah if your listeners do not know this so the thing that makes the parkies really special is there i think it's like 60,000 acres of primary forest right never logged never touched um and this is the heart of it right here yeah

34:30cool biggest area in the Midwest uh okay so you're on government peak trail still like so in this route you cover the entire length of government peak trail um and then you come up to a trail intersection with north mirror lake trail and it's a tea you turn left and left on north mirror lake and this trail bounces around a little i think the most interesting thing that you may have to watch out for is pretty quickly it crosses a very large swamp a very beautiful swamp like it's just a gorgeous area on a single width boardwalk and so you know uh if you don't want your feet in the mud then you got to look ahead to who's coming at you but uh it is a remarkably long boardwalk through this swamp so that's like one of those like balance beam type things i've been seeing i'm gonna say it's like a two by eight so like you're gonna fit out if you can too both of your feet to fit on it right yeah it's narrow it's definitely not a easy to pass a person up okay so yeah um and so at this point you're coming near an area called mirror lake so this is one of the more popular

35:32interior areas of the park so not super busy but like you're gonna see a lot more backpackers and hikers and things through this area um across a few more streams uh the trail goes right along the lake shore of mirror lake which is a beautiful little lake um you very well might start actually hearing some loons and stuff at this point right it's gonna feel like you're in the north um there are cabins so you're going through people's front yards right and again like cabin on one side fire pit on the other likely to have people out and possibly cooking dinner at this point depending on on how the timing's going can we might be also for dinner yeah there you go you can ask them for their freeze drive meals and so yeah but yeah following on the lake go through a bunch of pines fairly flat the trail actually gets wide enough and because you're under pines or you know ever greens in this area um it can be hard to actually tell exactly where the trail goes that it all kind of goes in the same direction you're just following the lake shore um that's maybe a general point to know about is any of these segments that are underneath a big a big stand of ever greens

36:35you can sometimes start going oh which way does the trail go through here okay and I know there's been some you know careful marking there's blue blazes everywhere watch for them but it is possible to sort of you know slightly go off trail and you just you take a second to look around like oh yeah everything's going the same direction through here yeah um so you're not going to get lost but you might not be physically on the trail okay uh that yeah okay so we're going past we're through mile 30 we're heading along towards 31 um this chunk of trail follows the lake and then um there will be a signpost saying the little carp river goes straight ahead and the south mirror lake trail turns left and you're all following the south mirror lake trail so you're gonna turn left would be easy to blow right past that um and if you do you're gonna blow past one of the biggest up and downs of the entire thing and uh miss a nade station and that there's yeah yeah don't do that don't do that yeah but yeah so you make this turn you cross the little carp river now on a very nice board uh very

37:36nice uh i don't want to say boardwalk it's a bridge it's the real deal um and uh at this point they're really haven't been any significant unbridge griffour crossings and i'm just saying they're coming soon so get ready um but this south mirror lake trail through let's say miles 31 up through about 32 is it's bumpy it's rocky um it's actually been kind of widened lately and there's a lot of clay there's a lot of slick you know just uh i call them killer rocks the pointy kind you gotta be careful about uh it's in widened because they've been working on replacing a bunch of stuff at mirror lake so um basically you end up doing a fairly long slow uphill here until you are coming around the shoulder of summit peak which is where the next aid station is gonna be and right at mile 32 there's a corner with the summit peak side trail um so a right hand turn if you went straight you would eventually hit a parking lot and that would be bad news so I assume there's gonna be someone pointing you in the right direction there um but a right hand turn

38:41off the summit peak side trail and the first bit of this trail is very flat so like by first bit i mean maybe quarter mile very flat and then it becomes very very steep um not quite a rock scramble at any point but like you're this is the closest you get to that on this trail so there's some very steep uphill as you get to the top of summit peak which is the tallest peak in the park still only like 1900 feet or something like that but uh yeah for your Colorado listeners Michigan has 14ers as well we have 1400 feet watch out for that um but yeah so you get up to the very top like this so this trail literally goes to the very top of summit peak the highest point and at the type highest point there's a lookout tower so if you really want to climb a bunch more steps up to the top of lookout tower it is pretty good like you can enjoy the view that's the thing that people do um but if you don't want to trail continues and it is a little weird at this point unavoidably you're going to be following on like a very nice big built-up boardwalk right

39:43railings steps wide right um that style of thing so it's going to be a funny one uh because it's actually so nice and so this is uh it follows a long boardwalk for quite a while i mean at least a quarter of a mile makes a big turn and you follow another big boardwalk and at this point you're in a super built-up touristy area and so you're going to run into a bunch of people um and there will be a turn right down to the aid station that's at the parking lot area um and there actually are outhouses here there's your aid station there's parking there's there's access right um and this is a high point of the entire course it's a high point of the entire park so everything is would be nice mostly downhill from here yeah um so yeah yeah yeah so i mean my aisle 33 is your is essentially your high point just before that so um that's you know roughly 50k is your your your your high point there yeah yeah i mean that's so yeah after this there's some interesting stuff coming up but i mean realistically it is a long slow downhill like the big uphills

40:47are mostly done at this point um and you're about to see some of my favorite trails in the park i'm going to keep you keeping favorites right but um in particular what happens at this point is you take uh it's called the beaver creek trail uh which goes right back down off of summit peak um and it's a it's a pretty nice trail it's uh as as wide and kind of not too rocky as you get in the park still rocks and roots but not too bad a little bit of mud overall it's a pretty nice one and it comes down very quickly follows off you know follows the beaver creek of course uh and then you end up bottoming out at the little carp river which you have already seen a couple other places along here um and again follows a very long boardwalk this one not quite as built up this one's more of uh you know two boards next to each other side over a big swamp area over a river area over a very narrowed russia area um so just another place where uh it's a bit of a funnel and you're likely to meet people going both directions okay so at this point you tee into the little carp river trail

41:52and so the little carp river trail i said the escarpment is like Michigan's best trail i think the little carp river trail is is the best long trail in the park right and you're about to do almost the entire length of it um just for sheer beauty and the first bit of the little carp river trail starting just after mile 34 or so uh it is remarkably flat there's there's still some of the little stream you know just a little bit down a little bit up but even some of those have small bridges over them right like you know single board style bridges uh it's uh i'm going to say like at least a solid mile of you could possibly get going you could get some speed here if you wanted to and you've got it in just still um but yeah fairly flat fairly wide trail by portee standards it's a really nice little stretch uh and then you eventually pop out at what's called lily pond and you'll know you're there because there's a spectacular huge bridge across uh the mouth of the lily pond where the river comes out of it uh there is a and you give bad advice again there is a bench built right

42:53into the middle of the of this bridge and there's a viewing area across your men like you could stop and look there it's it's so beautiful you must not let the chair is the double yeah you want to know yeah like this would be bad you could lean against the rail and it's a great bridge yeah um but yeah it's a good spot uh and as soon as you cross the bridge you go up some you turn right go up some steps uh and there's a this is going to be one of the funny points in in this entire route there's a cabin right in front of you and like hikers who have a map and know exactly what they are doing and haven't been running for 35 miles at this point um we'll go the wrong way at this point because the cabins literally right in front of you where the trail lake should obviously go um go right go to the right you're following the river if you go left you are going to the outhouse and you're gonna end up there and be like what what just happened um that'll be me yeah 50% of everybody is gonna do that anyway it's just it's just how it is um but yeah go to the right follow around

43:54the cabin and then you're back on another pretty nice stretch of trail like relatively wide by relatively wide i mean not so narrow that you have trouble passing somebody right like there's a little bit of width to it um but you spend you know through mile 35 all the way down to the lily pond trail at like 35 and a half or so um it's a remarkably nice flat dish uh wider stretch of trail so you hit the lily pond trail um and actually it's an intersection it looks like you turn and you do you turn right here you're really just staying on the little carp river trail at this point um and the here it starts to get bumpy again so you start doing little ups and downs um you're deep into the highlands inside the park and so there's lots of little rocky hills that will give you a you know 50 feet of elevation change or something like that um and you just start seeing a lot of those on narrower trail um very very single track rocks and roots again and the first big thing that happens right in the middle between 35 and 36 is you hit the first unbridged river crossing of this entire

45:00thing so certainly stream crossings before now um but i mean those are like you know one foot splashing or maybe a little bit of walking across but like your ankles will get wet you know that level at most um this one is a genuine river crossing it's not going to be like you know fording a river and and you know that sort of thing but like even in the driest seasons you've got to either stop and rock hop for you know 20 yards or something or more likely you just walk yourself through it but this is a place where the river bottoms rocky the river bottom is to some extent bedrock with angles and and you know polky angled bits um this is a place to be extremely careful especially because you're going to be careful you're going to be tired right um it would be super easy to fall user poles but yeah it is not a it's not waiting up to your waist i mean even if it has been super rainy it's waiting up to your knees at the most okay so i'm sure it's going to be up to my thighs

46:00but yeah like the this is the little car forever and that's what the next two more unbridged river crossings are going to be it tends to be um almost but not quite up a bowl across on rocks if you're really careful yeah um but so you come out of this by the way there are two campsites immediately on the opposite side of the river and people are probably going to be in them right now so you're you're going through the middle of their living room um and then you get to this this long stretch which is very bumpy and you'll go up a hill you'll go down a hill there will be a mud hole at the bottom up but you'll go up a hill you'll go down a hole there will be a mud hole at the bottom of it repeat repeat a few times every hill getting a little higher than the last one but they're not enormous hills at this point yeah um you know they're they're like maybe 50 feet something like that and you're away from the river it's a little more tunnel of green but like a rocky bumpy tunnel of green at this point um deciduous forest could be very pretty at this time of year and so pretty soon um maybe a little after mile six mile 36 uh you actually start a little more

47:04of a descent so the down hills start being longer than the up hills but you're still bumping a little up a little down a little more down a little up a little more down um and so you do this sort of very long slow uneven descent all the way down to uh the next aid station so it is a slightly funny thing here right about at mile 37 you actually make a turn off of the little carp river trail onto a side trail to get towards the aid station um and then after the side trail which is almost an old two track it's it's fairly wide and downhill um you hit the little carp river road so you bottom out at the river again there is a bridge and then you do this quarter mile uphill on an actual gravel road to the aid station which is at a parking area um and I so here is my unfamiliarity with this I assume you must check into the raid state aid station or can you choose to bypass um you don't have to aid station that that's completely up to you yeah yeah maybe maybe marking as people are coming through to make sure you know we have all of our

48:05partners but it's not really necessarily required yeah there is a this is a funny corner because it's basically a triangle of trails so it would be possible instead of turning off to go up to this aid station to just continue on the little carp river trail which is not marked as the official route so I think be careful because it would be easy to miss that job if you need to yeah yeah but if you did that you go back down the long gravel road and you go left instead of the direction you came from um and this area follows along the little carp river trail where it feels like a mountain stream and you're going to hit a whole bunch more uh waterfalls they're a little smaller than the one so far uh some of them are named some of them are not it's this beautiful kind of mountain stream type area lots of boardwalks lots of up and downs lots of weird little segments of mud um and very narrow in a lot various so this is a chunk of trail that's just um it's narrower than some of the ones you've been on recently so more rocky bumps more tree roots more every little thing uh that you're going to try to catch your feet or make it a little harder for

49:08you to keep traction so that's going through you know mile 38 um maybe even as far as mile 39 there's a couple bigger uphills through that area but nothing really major yet um and then starting at mile 39 or so you have another kind of long flatish area you're following along the river you're on a bluff above the river it's um it's gorgeous uh you start getting into more evergreens again so that kind of thing i mentioned where sometimes you might feel like you could miss where the trail is but everything is heading in the same direction regardless um let's see and i'm looking at say you even do that through mile 40 or so and what i'm trying to double check to make sure i give you the right the right right waypoint right here on the map is if you're following on the garment trail like i am right now it looks like this trail crosses the river like five dozen times in this area it does not um right this is not what's happening so you are always on the north side of the river through here until you actually cross it uh and it looks like that's going to be at about just

50:09after mile 41 um so this is your second unbridge river crossing okay it is a genuine river crossing again potentially maybe kind of rock hoppable this is the one that's the least likely that you'll be able to find rocks if you just want to be really careful and you you got to wait um but it's not going to be super deep right dry weather it's ankles yeah weather it's wet weather it's calves right um but again i just you're gonna be tired at this point and like me in a backpack i have to be super careful with the rocks and the and everything in that area yeah so yep um but this next chunk uh from about mile 41 to 42 even to 43 is like the most gorgeous segment of the little carp river so i call it the hall of waterfalls tons of short waterfalls the river is really quite straight in some of these you can actually see up and down it um and you're going to be literally right on the river bank like right on the edge of it so the extent that you might have to actually watch for watchouts in some areas which can happen in that area um ever greens over hanging

51:12the river like it's spectacular i hope there's still daylight for you right because it's beautiful through here um and then right about mile um halfway between 42 and 43 you do the last of the unbridge river crossings and this one you're cutting a few corners through here right the trail is cutting little curves in the river and then suddenly you pop up to this river crossing and the one funny thing to know about this is uh there's like a very small island in the middle of this crossing uh and it would be very natural to try to cross through that island and that island is a giant tangle of snags and and lowdowns and roots and just it's miserable so don't do it right go skirt around it on the right it's probably easier but this area also has some deeper pools it has some bigger bedrock slopes uh underneath the water so user poles be very careful right yeah and honestly some people are going to be coming through there in the dark um personally myel there's 30 hours to finish and it starts at six a.m. on saturday so we definitely are going to have some

52:15people going through the dark yeah like this is a this is a be super careful use your head lamp use your poles all that kind of stuff and i guess i should have mentioned it but we're now on the on the route of the half marathon as well yes started back at that last aid station um so everyone will be doing this at some time or the other yeah um but yeah uh so after this the trail falls on the north side of the river it's uh you know a little bumpy you're more going downhill than uphill there's no really major um hills to worry about which is not saying there's no hills right and there's so plenty of roots and rocks and little tiny stream crossings but like this is it's a pleasant stretch of trail it's this whole last maybe five miles is pleasant um so hopefully it's a little tired for pleasant yeah yeah yeah um and right after right after mile 43 you close the loop you come back to that big bridge across the little carp river with lots of waterfalls upstream um turn left you cross the bridge again and you're back on the lake superior trail the part that you just that you started on um and so that very last bit is the bit that looks flat on the elevation profile but it's

53:20really constant up and downs in the stream crossings and things like that um and so you know even harder when you're at the very end of a race like this yeah you keep following along that you do have an aid station at speakers along mile 47 so that one last chance right there um which is a very flat bit of trail like it is actually an old road so very flat very nice and then your last bit out through the last three miles are um just the little bits of up and downs again the few ravines that you started with and instead of doing the waterfall loop that you started the trail with you instead come to the end of the lake superior trail and you're going to be faced with a dry river bed it's the first dry river bed you will have seen uh and so like press skyle river so like it literally means almost an island and there's two branches of the river right here and one side of it is almost always dry and it will be dry in this season uh but it is um it's stale it's it's bedrock again and you literally just have to go across it to an island and then there's a big long wooden

54:23suspension bridge and that's your end that's your finish line um and it's a spectacular way to do it with nice waterfalls and either side of you right so you're at the finish the bridge you know you made it someone's taking pictures yeah it sounds really really nice I can't wait to see it right so you described it also perfectly yeah so that's what I was going to say so first of all this is a really great time that if you're getting ready to run this race to really listen to this episode yeah it's a really great opportunity to visualize the visualize the course yeah oh on our um oh mar's socials they have so many pictures from the recent trips you can see different pieces of the course just to get an idea of what to expect um I just think this is a really great opportunity um i debuted you just have an incredible amount of knowledge about this world it's unbelievable to me I mean i the first time i can say i met a guy online and he was awesome i was awesome yeah i don't think i could describe any trail i've ever done a million times the way that you just i'm amazing thank you so much i mean the porcupine mountains are a special place

55:28right and these trails are wonderful i hope that everyone running this will come back right and see it again as well and i also love your passion i mean it's just it's just kind of seeping out of you so this is just really exciting i wish you were available on September 19th you could be my guide for the fifty miles i wish oh my gosh i would love to be up there like be at an aid station and see yeah well maybe next year and if you you know want to participate or you want to be part of it you know reach out let me know and i'm sure i can help you get into this event because we would love to have you yeah i would love to thank you so much for having me i really appreciate it definitely super appreciate your time yes thank you so much David all right okay we'll see everyone next time yeah thank you so much hey it was great talk thanks for inviting me i really appreciate it