The WildVision app & herd management - Oscar Goodman

This is a podcast from Rover.

All right, we're going to a new software tool called WildVision,

which promises to help hunters have more successful and efficient hunts.

It sounds like good news.

Oscar Goodman, it's the person behind it.

He joins us now. It's great to have you on, man. How you doing?

Oh, I'm doing great. Thanks, Tom. How are you?

I'm good, man. I'm good. I've been wanting to talk to you for a while,

actually, because we've heard a bit about this app.

So, Tommy, whose idea was that? Was this yours?

Was it?

Yeah.

So, I had the idea about it a few years ago and got stuck into building it, I guess.

Yeah. So, what was it sort of frustrations in your hunting journeys or something like that?

There wasn't quite the sort of the tech that you needed or?

Yeah. So, I was full-time working up in Christchurch and wanting to hunt as much as I could, really.

And what I found was every time I wanted to go hunting, I'd go through all these different sources for information,

from weather to species data, to what to expect in the hunting park and all those sorts of things.

And got frustrated with the amount of time I had to spend doing that and thought there was definitely a better solution

that could be done to solve that problem.

Yeah, right.

Yeah.

So, that's how we got there.

So, then from OK, going right, clearly something needs to be done.

What were the next steps?

Like, have you got a background in this sort of stuff?

Or how did the kind of the app actually come about, like the development of it?

So, I'm an industrial designer.

I studied it at the University of Canterbury, but I've got no software background.

So, I pretty much had to start from scratch in that regard and just start learning how to put software together.

And yeah, we started off by building a simple, you know, just a map that has green and red dots across the country,

where it's good and where it's bad to hunt, and then we built a search algorithm.

Then we built a mapping platform that had all of the sources with the data and puts that mattered in a really terrible UX.

And that, you know, people like that, we got feedback from it, but it was terrible.

And then from all those little wee prototypes and stuff, we ended up getting to an iOS app that has offline mapping and amazing where the forecasts and the algorithms built in in a seamless way.

And all those sorts of things.

Yeah, so like any sort of tech development, it's incremental.

You're building on layers, I suppose.

Yeah, you're building on top of what you've built before and trying to improve what you've built before at the same time.

How long has it been, sort of, when did the version that's been available for people?

How long has that been out there for?

So it's been available on iOS since November.

Okay.

So the native app.

And then Android apps been available since mid-February.

Right. And I guess what's the early uptake with it being like?

It's been great.

Yeah. It's sort of met the expectations and slightly exceeded them, which is quite cool.

And yeah, we just keep getting new people coming through the door and wanting to try out what we're trying to do.

And getting involved and providing feedback and comments of support and stuff like that, which is awesome.

Yeah, that's going really well.

So you basically, I guess you consolidating all the data that's available and you're putting it into one place, which kind of surprised hasn't been done before from being really honest with you.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's a fairly, it probably has been done before, but it hasn't been done in a way which is simple enough to be usable.

Yeah, right.

And then from there, you know, you can put it all together into one place, but then how do you make it so it's even easier to use or it's actually a really valuable tool, which, you know, that's why we feel mapping into the into wild version.

So that you can use it in the field as well.

And when you get your insights, you can actually look at them on the map and you can figure out more from more about the area from looking at the satellite maps, you know, we are feed zones, we're betting zones and stuff like that.

We can class from where could a can site be, which you couldn't just do if you said, if we provide an insight saying you could just go to this block.

Yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. Is it learning with the data as well that people put into it?

No, no, so our whole thing is we don't use anyone's data for anyone, anything apart from their own, you know, seeing their own point on the map.

And then being able to provide an insight for that point, so it's a favorite spot.

We've got algorithm it ranks favorite spots. So, you know, the people where you like to go really go next, but that doesn't feed into any algorithms for machine learning or anything like that.

We're pretty proud of being able to provide insights just based on a knowledge base instead of, instead of machine learning.

Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, I think that's a good thing. Having to do that.

I agree with you. I think you're absolutely bang on. So that's great. I'm pleased to hear that part of it actually.

So you'll be getting excited because where I am, so I'm very close to deer and they're starting to get a bit noisy now, aren't they?

Yeah, no, they're roaring pretty much throughout the day now. It's really kicking off. It's still fairly warm, but yeah, they're definitely roaring.

Oh, yeah, yeah, but yeah, you're right. It's sort of unusually warm at the moment, isn't that really? It's kind of weird.

Yeah, but it's normally something. Yeah, yeah, we haven't even had frosty.

No, exactly. It's kind of like summer's just a bit later, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, yeah, we'll see.

Yeah, we'll see exactly. So you've been hunting for how long?

Since I was 18, so six and a half years, hunting big game. Not too long in the green scheme of things, but yeah, it's a quite a bit of hunting and that time.

Yeah, yeah. Was that the kind of the idea behind? Yeah, what was the actual idea behind the the app in the first place? How did you sort of get to the stage where you're like, OK, yeah, I think I might do this.

So, yeah, frustrated with all the sort of fractured data out there.

I wanted to make it selfishly. I wanted to make it easier for myself to go hunting.

So, yeah, that's sort of where the idea started.

And it's like it's not hard to go hunting in New Zealand. It's the easiest place in the world to go hunting, but finding the correct spot is can be challenging.

So, yeah, that's where the idea came from and then started building it and thought, well, if I, if I'm, you know, if I think it's sort of something that I need, then probably quite a few other people would need it.

So how about I just go all the way and try and make a really good tool and and see if people want to use it and yeah, people wanted to use it.

That's good, man. That's good. So, it actually predicts animal movement as well, doesn't it?

Yes. So, there's an algorithm there. It's not currently live. Right.

So, but we do have an algorithm for predicting animal movement levels, not, not, not straight movements, but movement levels.

You know, cool kind days, the best days for finding animals straight after the rain.

So, you know, predicting, predicting when that's going to happen so that you can target that, that time.

Yeah, we've got a couple other algorithms in the works, which are probably both food spots off.

Oh, really? Yeah. Can you spell the beans on anything?

So, you know, we're a, you know, where's best to go?

Yeah.

A block.

You know, what block's best to go?

But where do you look in that block?

Sure.

Yeah.

They'll come shortly.

Well, that's brilliant. I love that.

So, yeah, I guess there's no sort of, I want to say no limitation.

But I mean, I guess there's, you know, still way more ground that can, or, you know, way more, what would you say?

There's way more scope for this, isn't that with what you can actually, you know, include in this app over time.

Yeah. There's a lot more scope for both impermanent of what we really have and, and for new features to come in in a way that, that provides value.

So, we don't, we don't want to become a platform that is just a bombardment of information, which is really hard to, to derive any sort of valuable insight from.

We want to become a place where people come, which is sort of no bullshit.

Yeah. This is what is going on.

And this is what, you know, this is where wild legends algorithms think you could go.

Which make it, which would put your useful forward for finding success.

Yeah. And then there's different, different areas, which we could do better in.

And there's different, you know, geographies around the world, which we could enter as well.

As well, which is quite exciting.

Yeah. There you go. Now you're talking. So, I was going to ask you about that.

Actually, what are these sort of the future plans for it, like in your wildest vision, excuse the pun, but like where do you, where do you see it going?

So, in New Zealand, we'd just keep iterating on what we're, what we're already doing and keep going from there.

There's a big scope for entering the US market and as well as Australia.

You know, we've got some unique offerings that would, I think, be quite well uptaken in those places.

So, how that all goes, we'll see.

And then, yeah, there's a bunch of different hunting as a activity that's weapon-dependent, just like most outdoor activities.

So, there's a lot of different scope for entering, you know, building products for different activities as well.

Have you hunted overseas?

Yeah, I've got it in Northern BC last year.

Nice. How was that?

Hell was pretty fun.

Yeah, it's completely different to here. Super low animal numbers, big country, very wooded country.

You're hunting a lot of birds in dead-fall zones, which can make moving really hard, yet to catch your own trails.

Yeah, you're glancing for three days at one point, trying to find one mountain goat, which is, yeah.

You start playing music and stuff because you play board doing that.

But, yeah, it's very different to hunting in New Zealand.

Yeah, what were you primarily hunting over there?

So, we started off hunting mountain goats, which are a pretty cool animal, quite similar to our tar.

And then, we ended up, well, what'd we go on to after that?

We hunted elk. So, I guided a guy from Seattle on elk, which was a super cool trip.

We put this jet boat down this bluff pretty much into this river.

And then, jet boated up two hours, split the hull on the jet boat.

And then, got into this area, which was like the only area in the territory that held elk.

Yeah, he'd originally be coming to camp that night and then, yeah, got up into some elk the next day and found a legal bull.

And, yeah, managed to get Rudy onto his first bull elk, which was, yeah, pretty cool.

That's awesome, man. Good feeling, huh?

It was pretty fun, yeah.

That American market, if you can get that ape in there, I think that'll go good.

And you can promote it as well when you're over there.

Because, imagine, what are you going to keep going back to use?

You sort of doing the whole US New Zealand thing, which a lot of people do.

Yeah, yeah, I'll do that for a while, I'd say.

Yeah. So, that boat's well for wild vision, doesn't that really?

Yeah, it gets to learn, like, it's a completely different culture and different system over there to hear.

They only hunt for really two months of the year.

They have to pay for their hunts.

They have to pay for, you know, licenses.

They have super limited hunting opportunities to get into really good animals.

Or that'll work really hard, or not a lot about a block, about an area.

And then, yeah, they spend tons of money on that two months of year of the year,

where they just want to get everything right.

So, they can come home with some memories.

Yeah, some really cool memories.

Yeah, so, it's a pretty cool place.

And, yeah, they've also got quite a cool system and how they,

how they leverage hunting.

They see it as a value, like a value, value thing.

And they leverage hunting to pay for, you know, the conservation and stuff like that,

which I'm really keen to learn a lot more about as well.

Yeah, that's an interesting thing that's been, oh, well, you're talking Canada,

but it's been, or you're talking States and Canada.

Both States and Canada.

Yeah.

Arguably the States is a bit more advanced than Canada.

That approach of basically having the, you know, restoration and the national parks,

and bits and pieces.

Yeah, it's been around about 120 odd years now.

I think it started sort of the early 1900s.

And man, it's been, it's been amazing what they've been able to achieve just with their system.

And it's the same system that's still in place now, which is pretty awesome.

Yeah, yeah, the tags pay for the research, which pays, you know, which helps inform.

What tags are going to be issued the next year or, you know, just managing all of the species,

all of the floor and floor that they're in the area.

But that, those tags are what pay for it.

Which I think is a great way of doing it.

And the tag costs like 50 bucks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a great system.

It really is a great system.

And so you would like to see that here.

I think there's a way in which we can use a system like that to really benefit hunting on New Zealand's public land.

We've got a lot of different types of hunters in New Zealand.

And we've got, well, the core problem is we've got way too many female animals.

And in some places, there's too many males too.

So, you know, a lot of hunters, we like to hunt for meat.

But we also like to hunt for a trophy.

There's no point in hiding it.

We like hunting for trophies.

So when we have a good, a good herd structure, you've got, you know, low female numbers and slightly higher male numbers.

You get good rap conditions.

You also get a healthy herd.

You get good trophy quality.

But you also get good meat quality.

If you've got too high of, you know, both or of, you know, a hind female population, you get degrade degradation in your trophy quality and in your meat quality.

Which is, which isn't good for anything.

And you also get, you know, environmental damage on your, on your vegetation.

Yeah.

So, we've got borrow, we've got ground hunters and we've got culling operations.

Ground hunters in the front country with targeting meat in the back country are probably targeting more trophy animals.

Why are hunters targeting meat and targeting it on a cost per hour of flight?

So then primarily hunting steaks, because it's a bigger, bigger, bigger animal.

And then culling operations are just culling.

So, I think there's an opportunity there to have a license or a tag system, something where us as hunters are paying a small sum of money, which incentivises or subsidises some sort of borrow to take out just hinds.

So then areas that we love to hunt on our backcountry trips have still have, have a good herd structure.

So there's a lower number of hinds, which the animals that never managed.

And there's still, you know, there's still stags in the area.

Yeah, so, I think that would be, that would go quite a long way.

There's also international hunters who come and not just to be guided, but to also do DIY hunts in, you know, the same alps or up north.

All they need is a firearms permit to do that, which isn't too hard yet.

There's an international.

And what I've seen happen is some international hunters will come in and they'll just shoot, they'll just shoot.

Because they aren't educated on aging a bull tar, or a chamois, or a stag, or anything like that.

They just want to make the most of their time in the hills.

There are some areas that they take out, you know, tens of young bulls or young stags, which again marks with the herd structure and decreases the trophy potential of that herd.

So if we had another license fee for overseas hunters, which I think would be the best one to integrate to start off with.

And you'd have overseas people, not Kiwis, paying for, paying for some of the conservation that we need to.

And then, yeah, they can be targeted, don't know who to do it, but it can be targeted in a way that benefits everyone.

You've thought about this a lot. I like it.

I don't disagree. James Meager, the fishing and hunting minister or hunting and fishing minister.

It's the first time we have one of those. I think he'd be interested in your ideas. Have you ever met him?

No, I haven't met him.

Rick and you will.

Yeah, you will soon, I'm sure.

So early feedback on this app is really good.

This is you for a while.

Yeah, no, I love love. He's been outside. So yeah, hunting's one of those ways of doing it.

And haven't been doing enough of it lately because I mean stuck, stuck developing stuff, but there's the irony mate.

Yeah, building that to help you go hunting more.

Well, shit.

You're in how we're at the moment too, right? That's where you're living?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just in how we are.

Yeah, I'm guiding full time at the moment. So I am hunting all the time.

I haven't gone on any of my own trips for two months now.

How do you find the guiding though?

I guess you get to meet people and put some pieces. It's not quite the same, but still.

It's not the same as a backcountry trip.

You don't get to clear the head or just glass of, you know, you don't get to do it for the case and have that sort of reward of just being out there.

But it is super cool meeting people from all around the world.

I've got stories, endless stories and.

And being able to help them to, I guess, achieve their dream of coming to New Zealand and.

And, you know, hunting, red stags or fellow or something like that.

Yeah, and yeah, I think it's a pretty cool way of, you know, spinning it a bit of time.

Sounds like it, man. It's awesome. Where can people follow you ever?

Social, social media thing and things like that, like a lot of.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I'm on Instagram. It's Oscar understood. Goodman.

And yeah, obviously wild vision underscore hunt for the wild vision page.

On Instagram and then.

Yeah, wild vision on Facebook. Yeah.

Brilliant mate. All the best with it.

Really good to catch up with you.

So thank you for doing this. And yeah, we should do it again sometime.

You're very close to actually and realize your hardware. So, so that's cool. So.

The studio after running will get you. But yeah, all the best with everything. Man enjoy the raw to it.

Yeah, cheers. Don't you too.