The Year Trans Was Invented (Gender Dysphoria Absent From the Historic Record)

In this deep-dive episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins examine the provocative claim that gender dysphoria—the intense, modern experience driving today’s trans movement—has no precedent in recorded human history before the 1920s.

They contrast historical examples of cross-dressing, third-gender roles, or gender-nonconforming behavior (two-spirit, hijra, sworn virgins, Elagabalus, etc.) with the core modern trans experience: profound discomfort with one’s birth sex that often leads to demands for medical transition, pronoun changes, and access to single-sex spaces.

Malcolm and Simone argue that gender dysphoria resembles culture-bound syndromes like anorexia—intensely felt but socially influenced, disproportionately affecting autistic individuals, emerging around puberty, and exploding via social contagion and media stories.

They respond to critics like Short Fat Otaku (Dev), discuss the shift from 1990s liberal “live and let live” assumptions, the role of bad actors, sports/prisons/restrooms, detransition, and why new evidence (Cass Review, WPATH files, UK data) demands updating views. Simone shares her personal experience with anorexia to illustrate how real these feelings feel even when culturally shaped.

A data-driven, empathetic, and unflinching conversation on human flourishing, consent, and ideological capture.

If you’re interested in history, psychology, culture-bound illnesses, or the trans debate, this episode is essential.

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello Simone. I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are going to be going deeper down a rabbit hole that I have pulled on in the past, but I was called back to it by an episode I watched of the rapidly declining in viewers short fat Orta. I, I think we now do better than him in terms of, of view count by probably like 20%.

That’s insane. Which is pretty exciting because I used to really like him in his videos and he sort of got, he, he actually represents a, a wider phenomenon that I wanted to grab onto on this topic because he, in its recent video, he was critical of leaflets debate performance, whereas almost everyone else says that she won dramatically.

I even had this moment where he’s like, I think she lost the trans debate she was having. And I was like, to go to an AI and be like, is it general? What’s the general consensus on who won this debate? And it’s like overwhelmingly leaflet. And it, and then it went through all of the reasons. It was overwhelmingly Lisa.

So I was like, okay, just checking on that crazy.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Just so yeah. To, to even override your, your bias still.

Malcolm Collins: But [00:01:00] he said one thing that really got under my skin at the beginning because a trans person was saying to somebody who was in this debate that was happening on X you know, we were here before you and we will be here after you.

And then his response to went viral was like, this is true. And, and he then says, trans people have been reported in human history since, you know, across cultures since the beginning of time. And this is. Factually not true. And I actually don’t even really blame short fat Otaku for not knowing this because this is just, he’s not a historian.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Well, it’s something that’s not widely known and yet is claimed with a lot of confidence by the trans community. And if you don’t double check, because you, you’ll be broadly aware, like if you’re aware of history, you will be aware that throughout human history and a lot of different cultural context where people will take on alternate gender roles where sometimes people cross dress in [00:02:00] history yeah.

Where people would act like a man or a female at different points in history.

Speaker 2: The Fall of Rome.

Joe Rogan had this to say on his podcast

Speaker 3: fascinating that the end of empires, they get really concerned with gender and hermaphrodites

Speaker 2: the Roman fem boy. Fully grown and willing to take on the role of a common Roman woman. Even the emperor himself donned girly outfits, mascara, and held many chamber parties . The Roman Senate began having debates to determine if quote, being with a fem boy was a totally gay thing. After all,

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And so you take that and you then just are like, yeah, of course. I’ve heard like three or four instances of that happening in history that I can just think of off the top of my. But that’s not what the modern trans movement is.

The modern and even the core complaint of the modern trans movement is gender dysphoria. This really, really intense discomfort with your birth, gender [00:03:00] to the extent that you may want to unlive yourself, right? Like, you, you cannot live a mentally healthy life as your birth gender. It is something that is constantly eating at you if you, if you don’t transition this phenomenon literally.

Nowhere in history before the year 1920.

Speaker: And you may wanna say, well, Malcolm, that’s pretty nitpicky. So you’re saying that there have been alternate gender presentation throughout history, but there’s never been dysphoria recorded in history. , Why does that matter? Right. And it’s like, well,, if it turns out that dysphoria is a modern cultural phenomenon, if dysphoria is not actually part of the human condition, then most trans arguments immediately fall apart.

The idea of I can’t be mentally healthy without doing this because of what? Because of the distress I feel when I’m. Displaying my birth gender. If you say, well, that distress is a cultural artifact and would probably better off removing the cultural artifact than,, a, a attempting [00:04:00] to address it through major surgery,

that falls apart And if you can say, well, if the people in Historia, , you know, lived as other genders but didn’t feel dysphoria, then why they do it?

And it’s like, well, we actually have a very good record. , Most of the time it was either like a woman wanted to live as a. Father in like a church and like a, this is sort of lifestyle. , Or did she wanted to fight in a war and women weren’t allowed to fight in wars during that period. , Or, , she wanted to pursue a gay relationship and women weren’t allowed to pursue gay relationships in that period.

, Or. With guys. , It’s often they were cross-dressers. Cross-dressing is something we see recorded throughout history. Even today. To conflate somebody who is a cross-dresser with a trans person is extremely offensive to both the trans community and the community of Crossdressers. They are not the same thing.

Wanting to dress up and talk like a woman sometimes is not the same thing as. Being trans. So, , if you say, oh, well in history we have [00:05:00] cross dressers, but no trans people, that’s a significantly different thing That removes most of the motivation for like why we need to gender someone correctly. Gender dysphoria.

Why do I need to use that restroom? Gender dysphoria? Why do I need to be on the sports team? Gender dysphoria.

But if we’re looking to history and all we have is sometimes I like cross-dressing, then it’s why do I have to play on this girl’s sports team? Because I like cross-dressing. It’s like, oh no, that’s stupid. No, we can’t let you on the sports team just because you like cross-dressing. If gender dysphoria is a cultural artifact, that is the center stone that the entire trans community relies on

To demand they, one, be seen as their preferred gender. And two, gain access to safe spaces that would otherwise be referred for people who were born, that gender. , And

also just to head this off at the beginning of this. , We do not think that they are faking feeling gender dysphoria or the [00:06:00] severity of the gender dysphoria. They are. They feel, , we suspect with a lot of evidence that we’ve gone over in other episodes that gender dysphoria. Is very similar to other forms of body dysphoria, which are associated with culture bound illnesses.

These are psychological conditions that only happen within certain cultures, within certain periods of history, and people are unable to catch unless they are aware of them with the most famous being anorexia. And again, you can see a lot of similarities. Age of onset around puberty, gender distribution.

More girls than guys, , key characteristics hits autists more than the general population, , associated with intense body dysmorphia. , And Simone, as somebody who. Went through that, and we’re gonna see this throughout this episode, can really empathize with how real this feels. But if it is a culture bound illness, the way that we need to address it is [00:07:00] entirely different than the way our society is addressing it right now.

If we actually care about the people who are suffering from it.

Malcolm Collins: and there are two maybe cases but both of them are really bad. We’ll go into them in a bit. Just to briefly touch on them, one is a Jewish rabbi from 600 years ago who wrote a poem poem, wrote poem about like, wouldn’t it have been better to be born a woman?

And we’ll go through the poem and everything like this. And just to sort of give, give away the thing there, it’s, that poem is considered within Jewish thought for 600 years up until the year 2000. Not a single scholar. It’s a very famous poem. Thought that it wasn’t satirical. In fact, it was considered almost prototypical or a, an excellent example, often used of Jewish humor from that period.

So not a single scholar or rabbi for 600 years thought it was anything other than a joke.

Simone Collins: Well, even it wasn’t a joke though. I, I don’t think that that could even [00:08:00] necessarily be seen as gender dys

Malcolm Collins: dysphoria. It was a joke. It was written as a joke. It sat down.

Simone Collins: No, but even if it wasn’t as, someone could just be like, well, practically, I’d rather be born a woman, especially during a time of war if they’re like, I’d rather not die in a war.

But that’s

Malcolm Collins: not what the poem was. It wasn’t like that. It was a joke. It was written in a book of jokes. Okay. The other things in this book were mostly jokes.

Simone Collins: Oh,

Malcolm Collins: really? Okay. Oh my gosh. It was satire. Okay. It’s not like a, oh, you could interpret this in various ways. It’s very clear what was intended by it.

Mm-hmm. The only other example we have in history is potentially a gaba. A Roman emperor who based on one account asked the doctors if he could have a vagina sewed onto him to become a woman, and he would dress up like women. The problem is, is that this one account was extremely hostile to him.

And all historians always like basically, you know, if you go back and you read the [00:09:00] historian literature and we’ll go into this a bit deeper, I just wanna set this up to begin with. They agree. And then, then this is the academic consensus that a lot of this was slanders made up about him, about of people who didn’t like him.

And even if you do bite the bullet on a gula you are basically saying. I, I could just go into this a little bit. He’s like one of the Yeah, please. People in human history. He would do things like cut off people’s members and then feed them to like snakes and birds and stuff like that as part of, oh my god, religious ritual.

He made up, he would give people government positions based on the size of their members. He was the one who was favored. He had a fixation before the gladiatorial games releasing snakes on the crowd just to watch them freak out. He liked to, as a hobby, throw gold a crowd so people would trample each other.

At one point he dropped so many flower petals on a party, a bunch of people suffocated. He oh, [00:10:00] love was super gay, very into you know, having a, a gay main lover. So the, the reality is, is even if you accept that this guy is trans and a historic example of it, he is. Like, that’s your historic prototype of the modern trans community, right?

Yeah. Which really leans into the trans stereotype that like Freedom Tunes has

Speaker 8: So three turfs are on a beach and they find a genie. All right, let me stop you right there. Are these women gonna get murdered by you?

I swear. You’re gonna like the sun.

Speaker 7: Fine, fine. Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 8: They rub the lamp and the genie comes out. Right,

Speaker 7: right, right.

Speaker 8: And the genie is me and I murder them all.

Speaker 7: Okay. Do you see how that’s just you murdering people again?

Speaker 8: No. No, because the genie also says, I love Cat boy.

Speaker 7: Mm, no.

Malcolm Collins: With that trans comic, which you know, it’s something you see. We have [00:11:00] our episodes where, like you, you do see disproportionate violence sexual arousal from, from trans individuals. And we go into why that might be the case.

You see this in Alist studies. It’s was well studied in early trans communities. But we’re gonna go into those a little bit. We’re gonna go into all of the different cross cultural things that people say are trans because they’re not.

Speaker 5: You gotta understand what a big deal this is as a data point. We’re talking about literally all of recorded human history. And you could be like, well, maybe they didn’t write it down because it was societally looked down upon it the time and it’s like. Doesn’t work. We have so many, so many records of gay people throughout history.

We have so many records of other things that were taboo in society. We have James Joyce talking about how he’s turned on by farts. Not once did anyone think to say, I don’t like my birth gender. Right. Like they’re, they’re willing , to, in a society that will kill you for doing it, sleep with a guy and write long love poetry, but never once write down in the private [00:12:00] journal.

I’m just not happy with the gender I was born as that is a massive data point. , And keep in mind we don’t even see an instance of this in cultures that accept people taking on roles that are gender nonconforming. We don’t see a single instance of this. So even where it isn’t discriminated against, no one ever thought to once in human history until the 1920s put a pin to page and say, I’m not happy with my birth gender.

And keep in mind how shocking this is when you contextualize it in the context of how much trans people say that dysphoria affects them in their daily lives, how painful it is to them, how top of mind it is for them in every single human interaction they have. If anyone historically was feeling this, of course, somebody.

Keep in mind right now we’re looking at like 1.5% of the population or something as trans. You think nobody would’ve written that down ever, ever, ever. That’s completely [00:13:00] implausible.

And I want to notice here with the egabla case here, which is the strongest historical case we have of somebody feeling that way. He never even actually says that. He just seems to be debauchery, maxing and thinking, wouldn’t it be cool if I had another sex hole? Right. Like that’s literally what I’m reading from a egabla.

So with that being the case I, I think you, you, you’re really making quite an astonishing claim to say nobody thought to ever write this down. Nobody thought to ever write it in a private journal. No one thought to ever have it in a private diary. With everything we know about human history, that is absolutely astonishing to me.

And to me it means. With like, like you think even accidentally somebody would’ve been, even if, even if dysphoria isn’t a phenomenon, somebody might just have like felt this way because they were abused in some sort of weird way that led to this you know, a convergently looking outcome. But no, to not take this data seriously [00:14:00] is to just not be taking reality seriously.

Malcolm Collins: So that really annoyed me because I was like, come on, like Deb, I, I, I, and I think that Deb’s the type of person that if he just dug into the evidence on this, he would stop making such an easily disprovable claim.

Mm. That, that something that looks like modern gender dysphoria existed anywhere else in history or in any other culture. Okay. But the second thing he does, which I think is even more fascinating, and it’s the entire perspective that he argues from, which is, he went up there and he is like, no reasonable person believes that when you transition your gender, you magically turn into a woman, right?

Uhoh. And of course he was, did

Simone Collins: they not tell him

Malcolm Collins: throttled on X? With many comments getting like five x of the likes of his comment, telling everyone that the guy, the demon, how could he say this about trans people? You know, don’t you know that trans people are actually women? It was. Extremely aggressive.

Speaker 11: I posted Nobody reasonable actually thinks that [00:15:00] trans women metamorphos into biological females. The ask is not believe that men or women, it’s don’t be an a*****e. You don’t have to like trans people. You do have to leave them alone. And just so we’re clear here, I’m completely correct on this. I might have received a lot of blowback, but I’m not backing down from any of it.

I don’t care how big of a hoard of people showed up to complain. They’re all wrong, and I’m right. In fact, there were two hoards of people. The first hoard was left wing deranged, trans activists who hopped in to say that HRT does, in fact turn trans women into biological females and saying anything otherwise is transphobic.

In fact, according to this crowd, if you side with trans women on every reasonable policy prescription with regards to their individual liberties, but you refuse to believe they become female, then you’re exactly the same as a bigoted right winger trying to force them back into the closet. These people are delusional

Malcolm Collins: mm-hmm. And this brings up the second thing I wanna get into, which is like the dev perspective, the last nineties liberal out there. Right. And a lot of us were nineties liberals, whether it’s JK [00:16:00] Rowling or US or a, any number of other people who have since updated their opinions on this. Even leaflet, I think previously would’ve been you know, Protran and the reason we were protran isn’t dissimilar for the reasons that Dev is still arguing today.

It was, we’re like, well, no reasonable person would if we tried to give trans people more rights. Start using women’s restrooms start a, allow anyone to just say I’m a woman and get into a woman’s prison compete in women’s sports. Like no reasonable person would do that. So we can give the trans community these rights and they will self-police because they know that they’ll lose these rights if they don’t self-police around these issues.

Right,

Simone Collins: right. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And what we all learned is we were wrong.

Simone Collins: Whoops.

Malcolm Collins: They,

Simone Collins: they impossible that it wasn’t the case. There was this vision of just like, just let people live their lives. You know, just let them live. And [00:17:00] it’s fine. And it will be fine. And there was this assumption that you, you wouldn’t really have bad actors in this great world because if someone went off the rails, they’d be doing it in their own little controlled destination box.

You know, it wouldn’t bother us, it wouldn’t affect other people. We would never fathom that someone would be like. No, this means that I should be allowed to go into, like, as a man into women’s prisons. Like we just never would’ve imagined.

Malcolm Collins: That’s crazy what we, what we imagined is yes, some random psycho may say something like that.

Some random psycho may say, oh, no one would

Simone Collins: listen to them. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. But the entire trans community wouldn’t then get up in arms and support them and make their. Perv dreams and actual reality, right? Like, that, that when it came out that something like, you know, we often point out that the tram swimmer who’s, who’s super famous that she was flashing her genitals to girls in a girl’s locker room where it’s not even normal for girls to fully undress, [00:18:00] as we pointed out, that’s not normal in modern changing rooms.

And hasn’t been for a long time. And schools are even designed with this in mind these days. So this is just like intentionally using this opportunity to flash people. And then later a bunch of you know, I, I, I don’t wanna get into all of that, but yeah, it was clear that this was an individual who just wanted to flash people, right?

They, they, they didn’t then turn on this individual. We were like, well, obviously you’re not gonna be one of our leaders or archetypes of what it means to be trans. But they didn’t, and this is when a lot of us who were just sort of, I guess the normies out there, we were like, oh. I’m sorry. Like we, we gave you the knife to do a responsible thing with it, and then you went out and started stabbing people.

Right? And death is interesting because he even sees in his own comments on X that the bad actors have control of the ship, right? Like when you see somebody like Kamala using public funds to do gender reassignment [00:19:00] for people in prison, you know, tax dollars, it could be going to homeless people to gender reassignment in prison.

You’re like, oh, the people who are in control of the ship. These people go with the extreme take the take that he said, no reasonable person. And Mo most of the people who, who had this original like liberal perspective on this or libertarian perspective on this went for. We’ve adopted our views.

The question is, is why hasn’t he? And the answer is twofold, and he basically gives it in the video. Answer number one is he thinks, and a lot of people think that simply because if everyone was reasonable, this, giving them these rights and giving them these interpretations of gender would work.

We collectively, culturally, should do this. Okay. And it’s a really sad perspective because it’s like, [00:20:00] yes, I, I I want to operate society as if everyone is sane and well-meaning when that’s not the case. And so, it’s almost a, a weird sort of Deon, Deon liberal deontology, right? Like, what is moral is what you would do in a society where people don’t act like people, but that’s what leads you to horrors, like communism and stuff like that, right?

Like in a, in a society where everyone was reasonable and responsible and had self-control, communism works, right? But we don’t live in that world.

Speaker 12: And he commented on our last video first I’m aware that he’s commented on one of our videos where we mentioned that his, his viewership has dropped because he is seen as sort of betraying the wider movement that we are all part of, which has become the new right. Which drifted through internet culture.

And he’s like, well, I never changed my views. I never became a conservative. I’ve always been a classical liberal. I never was anti-trans, and I’m just. Baffled, but I’m not, [00:21:00] we’re not criticizing you for changing your views. We’re criticizing you for not changing your views as new evidence came out.

Right? Like we all had those views back then. When I watched your videos, when I loved your channel I had all the perspectives you had. I was seeking truth. I wanted a better world. And I believed that, you know, oh, well we give these people. These additional rights and they will use them responsibly and society will work.

And then it was the same with things like immigration. Oh, we can just take people from other countries, bring them to our country, and it’ll work, and they’ll become just like us. And then with both of these instances, we’re like, oh, okay, well clearly this is not work or whatever. One who was here because we were interested in what was reasonable is like, oh, well, clearly this isn’t working, so now we need to address this.

I take much more pride in my views that I have changed than in my views that have stayed the same, and I’m beginning to sort of. [00:22:00] Wonder or realize, was Dev ever actually on that journey with us? And this faction of people who’d say are like still classic nineties liberals or whatever did they ever really care about what was in the best interest of society or did they have like a religious belief in what was the most common?

Cultural belief system of progressives in the nineties. And just as society has changed around them and certain things that we assumed were true back then have been proven untrue they’re just like, but I refuse to change any of my views because this is what was true in the nineties. This is what any reasonable person thought in the nineties, that we can just have as many immigrant systems as we thought, which I thought I was pro unrestricted immigration back in the day.

Okay, because I, I looked at the Economist research. I looked at that and I was like, oh, this works. And new evidence has come out. We have tried it at scale. It didn’t work. Especially the uk or on trans issues where it’s like, okay, we’ll give you these rights and you will not use them to do [00:23:00] things like go and aggressively try to convert minors, like actively convert on fetish forms, right?

Like if somebody was doing that, you’d try to shut that down, right? Okay, good. And then, oh shoot, somebody’s doing that. Will you guys shut it down? How dare you stop them. transphobe and or you won’t claim crazy things like you’re actually biologically women. And then he sees, oh, oh no, the people running the ship are, Hmm.

That, that’s concerning. That’s gonna cause negative effects for society. And yet he’s like, but I’m religiously. I will live in the nineties. No new information. You know, Travis Duck was never shot down. We never saw that they were hiding the files showing that. Putting people on puberty blockers was increasing the risk of wanting to unlive and decreasing their mental health that this was wide scale throughout the trans industry.

We saw in the WPATH files. I never updated my beliefs after that. I only operate on nineties research that was [00:24:00] done largely by clinics that made their money

off of gender transitioning people. And I think that this is really sad that people like Kim will go cite the research and I’m like, was that research done by researchers who made their living off of transitioning people? Okay. Do you understand how that might be compromised? And we might need to look at other sources of evidence.

It is important and I, I feel like even if you disagree with us, that you take time to understand that when it comes to the anti-trans position of the majority of the leading intellectuals for anti-trans these days, whether it’s Elon or JK Rowling or us. We do not come to this because we love tradition for the sake of tradition, because we are attached to traditional gender roles because, , we want some old religious hierarchy in place.

, If anything, we’re kind of on the opposite team. We come to this because we wanted a better society and we got new information. And it’s the new information [00:25:00] that must be dealt with, not the, oh, you’re just taking away our rights because you hate us.

Obviously that’s not true. All of us had trans friends.

Malcolm Collins: Second he has friends, close friends who are trans and are,

Simone Collins: is, is this something he’s mentioned explicitly or is this is an as an assumption.

Malcolm Collins: He mentions this repeatedly in the video.

This is okay. And I can really understand if you have close friends who fall into a specific demographic that is in a systemic way acting bad, right? On a, on a, on a global stage you could be like, I, I really don’t want this friend of mine to have to suffer. They’re a nice person, right? But the problem is, is.

By taking the action that you are taking, many, many more people who are not your friend end up suffering much, much more, right? Whether it is the people who end up well being [00:26:00] assaulted, which happened just recently near us in Pennsylvania. The the young trans girl who made a hit list of people in the school, and they tried to do something about it, but she had this protected status.

And so then she you beat a girl and it’s really horrible. And, you know, all the warning signs were there. But trans are the people who lose their medals. They’re shot at college, they’re shot at scholarships because of this. Or the, you know, the kids who end up getting transitioned. And now we know from papers that one in 10 kids who, only if you, if you look at 14 year olds with a paper on this, it showed that only one in 10 who identifies as not their birth gender ends up still identifying as not their birth gender by the time they’re, I think, 21 or 23. And we know that this increases on alive rates by huge amounts if they end up adopting into this community.

We know that going onto like when the cast report thing broke down and the, the it wasn’t the cast report, it was the Travis Duck Clinic. When it shut down, they went through the files and they found the suppressed research the W

Simone Collins: [00:27:00] files, right?

Malcolm Collins: Publish. It showed that going on puberty blockers increased unliving risks.

We know now because puberty blockers have been blocked in the uk, that rates have not gone up. That is a huge sample size. We could have easily seen that if that was the case. It turns out that this entire thing was just. Wrong and a lie in people using captured scientific institutions to lie to people.

Yeah. And you can update your beliefs on this, right? Because the point I’m making is, is you are causing real harm because you don’t want your. Friend to feel bad.

Simone Collins: I mean, I think we can relate to it because we have friends who are non-binary. Not necessarily, we’ve certain met nice people who are

Malcolm Collins: trans.

I mean, they’re not friends anymore because of course, you know, I don’t wanna like there’s a point where you have to go out there and but I mean, for every trans friend that I’ve lost, I’ve gained more detransition friends. So like, I, the, the reality is, is I, I, I’ll tell you, the [00:28:00] harassment my detransition friends have faced from the trans community dwarfs in orders of magnitude.

I mean like 10, 20 x anything, any trans friend, I have any face from anyone. That’s true.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And you know this as somebody who’s had trans known trans people and detransition, it’s not even close. Like the trans community is like a very definition of bigotry in the way that they treat Detransposition Pretty

Simone Collins: freaking bad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: It’s not, not good. Not

Malcolm Collins: good. But well, and this is, this is how, how do I say to somebody? You have to look at the larger picture, right? And be willing to be like, I can still like this person as a person and say that we shouldn’t harass like trans adults on the streets. We shouldn’t treat them poorly, but we need to understand that there is something deeply wrong with the community as it exists right now.

Yeah. And just trying to be this like moral deontologist around like, well, if everyone was reasonable in society when it’s been proven to you on your very platforms, if that’s not the case, and I’m sort of writing this video almost as if I hope Dev Washington, I’m trying [00:29:00] not to be too mean to him, right?

Like, please, like, take a step back from this particular cliff. You are not helping the wider trans community by not admitting that, that we do actually need to start taking action on this issue. Mm-hmm. And it gets worse if it turns out that even your friend is suffering from something closer to a culturally bound illness, which is what we’ll be arguing with, with, with this stuff.

Before I get into that, one final thing I wanted to note is an argument that I saw when I was doing some research on this to try to understand this for like women in you know, trans people joining women’s sports, right? Mm-hmm. Trans males joining women’s sports. And a lot of people get tripped up on this argument because they’ll say something like, well, Michael Phelps has like dramatically larger lungs, and like, that’s for genetic reasons, right?

You know, like, why is he allowed to compete? And yet a trans person who has some like, because they had a male puberty, larger lungs or something like that, why are they not allowed to compete, right? Mm-hmm. [00:30:00] And I. When you actually think through it, the answer is fairly obvious. Suppose there was a surgery that you could get where gills were grafted onto you or you could genetically engineer some humans to be like triple muscled and be able to breathe basically underwater and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Would it be remotely fair or sporting to allow these people to compete in the men’s competition? No, nobody would do that, right? Like we,

Simone Collins: we No. In the enhanced games, yes. In normal competitions, no.

Malcolm Collins: No. Yes. And there is a, a version of the Olympics that’s being built for this, right? This is the reason we banned testosterone, like our performance enhancing drugs in the Olympics.

This is the reason we banned EPO doping in the Olympics. This is the reason we ban many types of, like even swimwear in the Olympics because it’s gives people too much of a scientific advantage. Yeah, because that’s not the, the, the point of the Olympics. If you then created a separate category for the gill people, it would make sense for trans [00:31:00] men to compete in that category because they’re using a surgery to gain an advantage over other people.

Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Speaker 3: We used to see jokes about trans people competing in sports teams

And being allowed in women’s changing rooms.

Speaker 3: as being fundamentally anti-trans because it was seen as, so obviously an unfair thing to do.

Speaker 2: Come in, dear. Have a seat. Take off your bra if you’d like.

Speaker: I need to talk. See, I have this problem, I have a terrible secret.

Speaker 2: Well, Cindy, we all have our little secrets.

Sometimes we do things we’re not so proud of. To gain the athletic edge on the competition. Sometimes those secrets come back to haunt

Speaker: us.

Simone Collins: On that,

Malcolm Collins: Oh, the other thing I note about not wanting to tell a friend, like Yeah, but overall it’s bad mm-hmm. Is I would ask if, I don’t know if he does have any friends like this, but I’ve also had friends who are Scientologists, [00:32:00] right? Mm-hmm. And it made me very uncomfortable speaking negatively about the church, but the church has destroyed countless people’s lives.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And

Malcolm Collins: it’s demonstrably a, a negative force in our society. Mm-hmm. And it’s

Simone Collins: something that we’ve got Scientologists for whom, as far as we can tell on the outside, like, it’s worked well for them. And like you feel like, okay, well this is good for you. I’m not gonna question your choice to do this, but like on average, I would not have anyone I care about join the church.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and it makes sense to warn people about it. It just, as you warn people about gender transition at a young age, you’re normalizing this. And if I could put legal restrictions on the Church of Scientology I, they’d be similar to church. I’d be like, I would want legal restrictions that reduce the number of people coming into the church, but I wouldn’t want to punish people who are like genuine day-to-day believers.

Yeah. And I think that that’s the way we should be approaching this to the question, and this was the big question in Leafless debate. It was the big question dev focused his video on is what is a woman, like, how do you define the word woman? And I largely actually [00:33:00] agree with the broader take on Deb’s perspective on this.

Um mm-hmm. I keep saying Deb, that’s short fight of tacos like name which is a woman is whatever a woman is culturally conceived to be. By that particular cultural group. So from my cultural perspective that, you know, we have built for our family a woman is somebody who has the larger gat and has children.

And are you like, are you saying somebody is less of a woman if they can’t have kids? And it’s like, well. Kind of the primary distinction between man and woman is made around what role they play in reproduction. Given that I think that reproduction is particularly core part of the human life cycle the role that somebody plays in terms of birthing and having kids.

Yeah, I, I think that they are functionally is the 50-year-old woman who is out there sleeping around with 50 guys and having fun. There was a old actress bragging about this being at least who was 50 and, and Brett Cooper was like, what are [00:34:00] you doing? Like, and I was, I felt the same way seeing this 50-year-old like brag about this.

Is she less of a woman than the 50-year-old with three kids? Yeah, she is. Okay. I know that’s an offensive thing to say in our society. But culturally that is the way I see it in the same way that culturally trans people see it differently, right? And then you can say, well, if, if culturally trans people see it differently, then.

Why don’t you say, okay, you just do it culturally your way. They do it culturally their way. Mm-hmm. The reason is, is because their cultural perception. Has numerous negative externalities on the people who adopt it, both in terms of psychological health, self-worth and outcomes. And worse than that is a particularly predatory ideology, which is known for aggressively trying to find new converts in younger individuals from, you know, setting up conversion pipelines in schools, which is something we’ve seen explicitly trying to groom children, [00:35:00] which is something we have seen repeatedly.

And it’s not just like the online, I often play this clip from the giggly goon files. I think it was quite good where you, you’ve seen a forum, so people talking about, oh, I’m gonna hunt children. Right? And it’s something that they do regularly for sport.

Speaker 11: it’s genuinely really good grooming advice. I’ve so far sent it to four minors between the ages of 9 and 13. I hope it encourages them to transition. When the Anka Zone animation became a meme, they got excited over its virality among kids. Mana Drain and Orion also fantasized about getting kids on hormones orion was the manager , coercing him every step of the way. Has he started hormones yet? Yes, but not effectively. I guess that’s what you’d expect just telling a r to buy hormones. They bought estrogen, but no anti androgen. It would have been more fun if he started hormone blockers at like 12.

Haha, isn’t that true for everyone? Don’t worry, I’ll make him into a good girl Don’t blow up our spot, bro. All t slurs are like that. You can trust me around your kid. It’d be transphobic not to. Me with daycare tots. To Orion, and many of his associates, their identity was little more than a political shield.

Malcolm Collins: And it’s [00:36:00] something that we have seen.

With even the Travis clinic, one of the doctors there was arrested for going to a local park and attempting to recruit kids. Like, this is a repeated phenomenon within the trans community. I did

Simone Collins: not know about that. That’s wild.

Malcolm Collins: And it’s not punished by the wider trans community. Once it’s caught, it has to be punished by outsiders.

None of this

Simone Collins: would be, well, also, I just wanna point out, this is ancillary to our first and maybe most fundamental philosophical gripe with trans ideology, which is that it violates consent in that to be trans isn’t really so much an internal process as it is involving forcing people to externally do something against their will.

They, they are obligated per your. Choice to see you and acknowledge you and refer to you by your gender of choice, even if that runs against their instincts and preferences and own [00:37:00] philoso philosophy. So what our, our big thing is like with, with most fundamental, like nineties progressive live and let be like full like approaches.

Hey, as long as everyone’s consenting and, and letting people live their lives, it’s fine. But on a very fundamental level, the modern version of what it means to be trans involves revoking people’s consent because they’re now obligated to. With them

Malcolm Collins: Reinforc, it’s not about being allowed to live the way you want to live.

It is much closer to Catholics all of a sudden deciding they’re going to force everyone to call any priest father. And if you don’t call a priest father you get a giant online harassment campaign against you to try to get you to lose your job and potentially even legal ramifications. Yeah. I, I call trans people their preferred gender.

I call priests father, even though I don’t think those things, I think it’s the polite thing to do. But if [00:38:00] Catholics decided to attempt to force everyone else to do that, I’d be like, especially against other people’s religious beliefs.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Just like how, like when we went, when we travel in, in other regions where wearing a head covering is appropriate, I’ll wear a head covering, you know, like, you know, but that if someone’s forcing me to do it, that’s a very different story.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, you, you do it in those other countries often because you aren’t forced to do it. They will kill you if you

don’t.

Simone Collins: Well, okay. Yeah, that’s

Malcolm Collins: And is very much the way the trans community acts, right? Like, oh

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But I wanna get, and, and when I say they’re like, oh, they won’t kill you.

It’s like, well, one, look at all the mass murder trans stuff. You can see our video on that. Like Yeah, they actually will. And there have a look at the Charlie Kirk situation, right? Like, yeah, yeah. They kind of actually will. But two they will try to get you, like the online mob will try to get you fired from your job and stuff like that.

Which we’ve already had happen to us. And when you have five kids or something like that, that’s taking away the family’s lifeblood, you know, that is not a trivial thing to attempt to do. And it shows [00:39:00] that even from Deb’s perspective, even he can see it. The community is owned, the culture is now owned by bad actors and by running cover for them, you are allowing countless amounts of harm on innocent people.

But now I wanna go into the different cultures that have ideas that trans people claim shows that the trans phenomenon is not something that was basically made up in Germany in the 1920s. The Nazis took it down.

Then we don’t see a single case of it for like. A long time. Then there was one viral news story about a trans person, and then the phenomenon explodes. And this is very similar to anorexia, which is another culture bound illness that disproportionately targets autistic people, is associated with body dysmorphia.

And we have seen things like a viral story happening in Hong Kong, and then it, it explodes, or we don’t have any records of it in the United States. It exploded after a few viral stories. Th this appears to be a [00:40:00] category of culture bound illness that includes intense susceptibility by otus, involves body dysmorphia intense discomfort with who you are.

And it’s something that like, we, even, like Simone suffered intense autism and almost died for, I’m sorry, intense anorexia and almost died of it. Right? Like she understands what it feels like to have body dysmorphia, right? Oh yeah. That doesn’t mean that she believes that it isn’t a culture bound illness.

Right. Simone.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I know. It’s crazy.

Malcolm Collins: No, but I’m saying do you believe that it’s a culture bound illness? Like do you believe that just because you felt it strongly doesn’t mean that it does. It must exist in other cultures.

Simone Collins: Oh, no, no. Yet it it, it’s culture bound. I, it, it is not like I was trying to conform to some kind of culture there.

I don’t think it was a cultural contagion thing. I think anorexia is actually pretty universal. So maybe it’s a bad example. I’m giving you two autistic of an answer. Simon Anorexia is about control.

Hold

Malcolm Collins: on Simone. This is a well-studied phenomenon. Anorexia does not exist in any other human culture at any point in human history.

It has been very widely studied. [00:41:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah. There was no, come on. There was all the, so before it was called anorexia, it was like, oh, she’s fasting for religious purposes. And there were all these girls like.

Malcolm Collins: You would’ve, no, sorry. When anorexia starts being first described in the literature mm-hmm. The people wizard look shocking to people.

Okay. It is noted as nothing like anything, any of these docker have seen. It did not look like fasting for religious purposes. It did not look like being a quirky girl when you were skeletal Simone. You wouldn’t have been described in the Victorian times as quirky people would’ve described you as skeletal.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah. I, I’m just saying, I

Malcolm Collins: I actually think that this is really good because you have experienced basically exactly what modern trans people experience. Yeah. And you show why it’s so hard for them to accept that. It really was just their culture. And if they had been unaware of the concept of gender transition, [00:42:00] if you had been unaware of the concept of anorexia, you would not have expressed your autism in that way.

Simone Collins: Maybe. Yeah. No, no, for sure. Like behaviors are typically learned and you can’t really learn a behavior if you’ve never seen it before.

Speaker 17: You can learn a behavior by the way you haven’t seen before. Same sex attraction, for example. Same sex attraction exists across cultures, , that is very different from anorexia. And this conversation is so fascinating ‘cause you’re seeing in Simone’s eyes in the way she’s relating with this, she apparently was unaware that anorexia is the poster child of culture bound illnesses.

, And it’s very hard for her to accept that this body dysmorphia that she felt was downstream of her own culture.

Malcolm Collins: So people are aware with how this works in anorexia. Basically anorexia like a big news stories will happen in an area and then you get [00:43:00] tons of cases of anorexia well, and the same

Simone Collins: happens with unscheduled life ending.

Malcolm Collins: Right, but this is different because when it happens with anorexia there will not have been a single medically documented case of this for like 300 years, and then you get 50 cases in a year. The, the other most famous culture bound illness is multiple personality disorder which does not appear to be real.

You, you see a movie about it or a story about it, and then a bunch of people start expressing it. But we don’t, we don’t have really robust

Simone Collins: but I think, so just, sorry, not like, just in my defense I think cutting is a good example of something similar to anorexia, whereas like a shirt like these things are new, you know, but like.

You had people religiously self-harming well before cutting became a trend that emerged in high schools and someone in the Victoria a era would find it to be.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but cutting bizarre. I’m aware of a lot of self-harm rituals historically.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not analogous [00:44:00] because we are aware of self-harm rituals.

Historically, we are not aware of something like anorexia historically. We are aware of fasting, but fasting in the way it happens with anorexia. And I think your being so perplexed by this shows how trans people must feel, right? When the evidence is so against something that felt very intuitive to you.

It felt like an intuitive way to act when it was, was in your cultural landscape. And this appears to be one of the effects of autism.

Simone Collins: No, no. Come on there. There were spoony in the regency era. There were, there were

Malcolm Collins: Spoony and there, but there were not anorexic.

Simone Collins: Yes, there were no, I mean, okay.

Malcolm Collins: Simone,

Simone Collins: definitely there were no, there were def like women, especially women though.

I mean, sometimes men too have been, recreationally and by their own choice choosing to restrict their calories or burn more. This, this is, oh, for example Cece, [00:45:00] the, the emperor, I’m Cii Simone because your mind hundred percent definitely anorexic and famously would eat just like broth and worked out in a weird ass gym that everyone thought was insane.

Who and, and maintained very small size. Who she was one. Cece who? Empress. Cece. Like Aus emus. Cece. She was an Austrian empress. She was very famous. She’s definitely existed before the modern concept of anorexia. She was 100% anorexic. And, and even more I

Malcolm Collins: this up because I think that you actually,

Simone Collins: I think you are, I know, I know that you’re wrong.

And I, I mean, I also get your point though, that like social contagion is a real thing and it’s also very hard to see it when it’s happening. And you wanna believe that what you’re doing

Malcolm Collins: on Simon, let’s pull this up.

Simone, because you don’t, you are acting like a trans person right now. You are scared about being proven wrong because you’re doing what trans people do.

Malcolm, I’m

Simone Collins: so happy to just lose arguments, but

Malcolm Collins: no take, I

Simone Collins: just, I know that I’m right.

Malcolm Collins: Take a step back here. [00:46:00] Okay? Mm-hmm. I’ll explain how your argument actually shows the mental gymnastics that trans people do. Okay?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I point out that anorexia, this becoming absolutely skeletal, not general calorie restrictions, not being quirky in how you eat, not fasting,

Speaker 18: So just in case to give this away, no princesses sissi he looked nothing like the phenomenon we call anorexia today. , This happened after two of her children died. She went into a period of intense depression.

And not depression. Like we talk about it when we talk about, oh, there’s a lot of comorbidity between an anorexia and depression. No, that’s teen girl stuff we’re talking about. One day her daughter died and then for the next three weeks she didn’t eat. And then she built a habit of almost never eating after that.

, That, that is not like modern anorexia.

One of them died by [00:47:00] Unli. , It was later in her life. . She went into, , intense fasting because of her children’s deaths.

, This is not what anorexia looks like. This isn’t a teen girl deciding to become super skinny, right, or obsess over calorie restriction. This is a mom who lost two of her kids in quick succession, , going through some sort of like. Psychological break to even compare the two is kind of horrifying. In the same way as we’ll go over the trans stuff, a lot of the people who trans people will be like, oh, that’s a trans community.

And it’s like, well, , actually this is the community that has their genitals cutoff so they look like girls so they can be sold for sex work. That’s not like. It’s kind of horrifying that you would call that a trans community in the same way that it is horrifying that Simone would correlate this woman’s [00:48:00] experiences with hers.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: anorexia becoming horrifyingly, skeletal, and freakish looking to outsiders was not a phenomenon that was recorded in history.

And you hear calorie restriction in the same way that when I say gender dysphoria is not a phenomenon that was recorded in history and trans people here identifying as a different gender, their brain intentionally twists what they’re hearing into something else. So they don’t have to face the reality that they succumb to a cultural trend.

But I am going to look this up because Okay. You might be right [00:49:00] Simone.

So sorry to tell you this Empress cii, do you know how long she.

Simone Collins: How long did she, she, well, well, like all her kids died and she lived way too long.

She probably should have died young.

Malcolm Collins: No. Okay. So you’ve already disproven your points when you just said all her kids died. If she had had anorexia that was like modern anorexia, she would not have been able to conceive children in the first place. Two, she lived until she was 60 and did not die from thinness.

So clearly not like modern anorexia. Three. I’m a

Simone Collins: functional anorexic and I’m probably not gonna die from my thinness.

Malcolm Collins: You would have died at the weight you were when you were a kid. Your body shut down and you still do not produce eggs naturally because of your thinness. You were well, worse than anything Em perisi reached in her life.

Speaker 20: And I wanna point out that Emperor cece was the best random [00:50:00] example that somebody with deep historical knowledge like Simone was able to think of. And Simone is a random effing person who Hannah had Auryxia, and it’s not even a big person for personality or how she sees herself. She. Had something so bad that she can never produce eggs again.

And Princess Cece regularly had children. The idea that you could compare these two and be like, oh, this is a good example from history, borders on the comical.

And I’d point out, as you’re seeing here, there are many pictures of her from the period she has claimed to be at her skinniest, and she does not look like an anorexic at all. , And this is really important. It’s really important because what we can see is this desperation to not have been influenced by culture.

To have some historical precedent to have this be part of the human condition [00:51:00] to want to say no, , somewhere else in history, someone else did this, and when reality does not conform with this. To begin to filter all of the information that’s hitting her. Like, obviously Simone is a smart, intelligent, like, well-read, thoughtful woman. , And this psychological break of realizing. No one ever did this before, like the 1950s, this psychological break of being like, and it’s the same with her. She’s like, but there were people who practiced calorie restriction in the past, therefore there were anorexics in the past.

No, there were people who presented as different genders, that specific parts of history. Therefore, there were people with gender dysphoria that mirrored modern transness. No.

And recognizing this is necessary for us to make the right logical choices for society.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Three. We have lots of paintings of her that I am now looking at and they look [00:52:00] nothing like a modern case of anorexia. You wanna look up, look up pictures of her?

Simone Collins: Famous, you’re vindictive. You’re so cute. There are lots of even photos of her photos, so you know, they didn’t fake. I know. I’m looking up.

Yeah. She doesn’t look like a, like a co, like a commit, how do I say? Committed diehard, anorexic.

Malcolm Collins: But you’re actually fascinating here because you have a condition and you went through a condition analogous to transness, Uhhuh, a culture bound illness that mm-hmm.

Desperately tries to seek for validation in history. I was not just following a cultural trend and you basically crashed out trying

cause you hear something similar in history and then your brain shaves off the edges of how it wasn’t actually like what you were went through

cause if you’re dealing with an analogous. Mental disease culture bound mental disease.

Mm-hmm. It can help you see it from their position better

Simone Collins: and how they grasp, I feel like I’m missing their perspective. I think you and I have [00:53:00] been as empathetic as we can be to the trans. Cause it’s just that, I guess similarly to anorexia, we’re like, Hey, this isn’t healthy. This doesn’t produce good outcomes.

Maybe there are better ways this can be managed.

Malcolm Collins: That’s not the point I’m making here. Okay.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The wider point I’m making here is this is a phenomenon that started in the 1920s, not popular in the 1950s and literally is no in no other culturally nowhere else in human history. Okay? It is not a part of the human condition.

It is a cultural phenomenon. Alright? And that doesn’t mean that they don’t feel it as strongly as you felt anorexia, or my family members who have had anorexia have felt anorexia. Okay? So to continue here, because now I’ll go over the various instances, but even, you can’t fully like admit like, oh my God, this is not something we see in other cultures and follows a very specific pattern within autistic populations.

And you grab at things that look kind of like it and we’ll go how trans [00:54:00] communities do So let’s start with two-spirit people, because you hear this a lot.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Right. Well, but also like I, I never heard about, we did so much in terms of Native American studies in my California and public schools. Never heard about two-spirit people. So that, that’s like a new thing in the

Malcolm Collins: well because do you know when the term, how two-spirit people were invented? And I think a lot of people in the trans community are like genuinely unaware that this is where this concept came from.

Simone Collins: No. Tell me.

Malcolm Collins: Myra Reini, a Fisher River Creek Nation counselor in 2021, stated that the phrase came to her in a dream slash vision during the summer. 1980. Yes. While she was at a protest in the dream she was in a teepee, was her indigenous mother on a hunger strike. Seven spirits appeared shifting between male and female forms.

Two of them declared her niece Manawa in whatever, I can’t pronounce that. She shared this vision at a conference in a [00:55:00] sharing circle of about 80 indigenous L GBT plus people across North America. After sharing this it was formerly opposed and quickly adopted at the third annual intertribal, native first Forums Gay and Lesbian American Conference.

This took place in 1990. We don’t have any historical examples of anything like this existing, not, not in in, in, like, some, some people wanna say, well, native American cultures have a huge degree of cultural diversity. And it’s like, despite that huge degree of cultural diversity, we don’t have anything that looks like any good record of anything that looks like a two-spirit person.

Simone Collins: Have, have I just been gaslit then? Because I, I could have sworn I’ve either read articles or listened to podcasts about how like, there were two-spirit people and the, the two, like in, in at least some tribes and these two-spirit people were kind of seen as like

spiritual leaders in the tribe. Like just

Malcolm Collins: made up. [00:56:00] We do not

Simone Collins: have historical. Okay, so someone just did, they just made, they just made it up. They just made up. Woman in the eighties had a dream

Malcolm Collins: and I bet that we were extra spiritual here. What we do have evidence of we do have some Spanish records of native Americans having same sex relationships, which they were very aghast at. And some Native Americans in these same sex relationships would dress like and take on the role of a female in their community. But that

Simone Collins: doesn’t happen.

Malcolm Collins: That’s not trans. That, that is, we see this in our society.

We, we have gays, we have twinks. Okay? Twinks is a well-known phenomenon, and this is what we’ll see throughout this. There’s a lot of these examples that people call trans are gay people, where one of them takes on a more feminine role within the community and was in the relationship. And that is something that we also have in Western culture back to the beginning of time.

But that is very different than intense [00:57:00] discomfort with your gender and a desire to change your gender.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. That, that does not describe gender dysphoria. It, it may describe gender euphoria. You

Malcolm Collins: and desperately grasping with examples for anorexia would be like, yes, A lot of people talk about two-spirit.

It must be

Simone Collins: a, I still dunno. I didn’t even identify as an anorexic at the time.

Malcolm Collins: The, the next example we have are the hira from South Asia, India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. These are individuals that for young males who due to poverty, have been ejected by their families. Mm-hmm. End up joining all male communities that undergo a practice where they are castrated for two things.

One is it’s the communities make their money predominantly for two things. One is a religious ceremony that you can only do if you’ve been castrated. And then two, the bigger source of income is, prostitution. So basically it’s a way for extremely [00:58:00] poor boys in these societies who are forced to go into sex work to get more clients by appearing more feminine, and then make some money on the side with a specific religious role for individuals like this

Simone Collins: oh, that’s wrong.

Malcolm Collins: These individuals are not super accepted. They are like, this is not like a super celebrated role in these Indian communities either, by the way. It is actually kind of ghoulish that these people are called trans or you know, the, the West specifically pushes on them this concept of trans because they’re, they’re really child victims often.

And on top of that they. Identify as a third gender, not men or women. They, they, they do not have gender dysphoria so much that they have no interest in other people identifying them with the opposite gender. So you cannot claim that this is something analogous to the trans phenomenon. [00:59:00] Okay.

Next, the faim in the manner of a woman are NATO males who naturally exhibit feminine traits or behavior.

They are not considered women by society. They do not want to be considered women by society, and they are mostly a feminine. Men who enter same-sex relationships was men. Again, we would call this twinks in today’s society, nobody would confuse this was a trans individual. However, where transness has entered these cultures, some of these individuals have decided to adopt Fafa as a name, and now they say, oh, and this always was trans.

But that’s not what we see in the historic literature. Okay. The m zappo culture in Mexico. So, there are biological mar males who adopt the presentation in roles, often in women’s work. They have cultural acceptance and family integration but they are not seen as women. They are seen as a distinct third gender.

And they are mostly effeminate men in same sex [01:00:00] relations with other men. We also do not have any good records of this existing pre Spanish colonization. Some people will say that we like arch answer, like in terms of the actual evidence, we don’t. We, we do

Simone Collins: not have any. This is not just because that was when it was first documented, like in, in records that we still have.

Because so many records were like burned and stuff. If, if memory serves when Europeans first came to it could

Malcolm Collins: be, or it could be that this is a modern phenomenon. Another good example of a modern phenomenon that is put as an older phenomenon or the cafe or the lady boys of Thailand and the Bako, the Philippines.

And this is a group that people most identify as like a really good example of a true third gender.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: But

Simone Collins: is this not just another case of, of, of men who are impoverished doing what they can to make money?

Malcolm Collins: Well, we’ll get into that, but, but a lot of people in these cultures do gender [01:01:00] transition today and do act as prostitutes and identify as trans.

Simone Collins: By the way, this also happened in like middle ages Europe. If you, for example, were to look for sex workers, you find some women, but you would also find a lot of men masquerading as women.

Malcolm Collins: But

Simone Collins: that’s not, this is not like a, an Asian thing or a like Mexican thing. It’s, it’s a, it’s a, people wanna make money thing, need to make money, need to not die thing.

Malcolm Collins: So, how, how far back did this goes? We have one early record potentially of this, a Chinese explorer Zon who noted androgynous cross-dressing males kuer. But specifically he notes them as. A, a, a part of the sex industry. They, they were sex workers. Okay. It was a way to get clients by taking on this effeminate role.

Simone Collins: Well, I guess it should be noted that that many men male to female trans individuals [01:02:00] in like working within modern woke culture, who would like, sort of identify as like the modern, new trendy of, of, of trans are sex workers. Like that’s kind of, that, that’s more of a through line than gender dysphoria for sure.

Malcolm Collins: So we actually, and, and I’m, I’m going deeper on this one because this one is, is one where you see people who identify as trans and as members of this community. And the only one where you see this, the problem is, is we don’t have any good records of this community existing before the 19 hundreds. At least in the regions where they are predominant today, they appear to be a, a.

Holistically modern phenomenon. And if they have any ancient roots, it’s as a type of sex worker which is very different from, and if people are like, well, a lot of trans people are forced into sex work, don’t you know that? And it’s like, yeah, but it’s the directionality. These are people who are.

Impoverished. Realize men want to sleep with things that look like women and will pay to, so they change their body to look that way. Mm-hmm. They are not people who change their [01:03:00] body to look that way, and as such, go impoverished. Right? Mm-hmm. More ‘cause I, I wanna be exhaustive. Here we have the golly these are self castrating, male devotees who wore women’s clothes, makeup, and performs ecstatic rituals.

Romans did not, these were not treated as a normal part of Roman of society. Romans called them half men. They were regularly mocked in Romans society. So first of all and two, they were a religious cult. And they were seen as a religious cult, right? Thi this is, this is not I think anything close to what we would consider trans today and certainly not close to what we would consider societal acceptance.

There’s some alternate role or some evidence of gender dysphoria in history. They look much more like, and so do many of these other groups, much more like castrato than modern trans individuals. People are not familiar with castrato. The only reason trans individuals don’t claim castrato is trans.

It’s because everybody knows Rados weren’t trans. Rados were young boys who were often forced to be castrated so that they could keep a high [01:04:00] singing voice through nobles. That is not trans, that is a child victim.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Now a final one, and I think that this one really shows how bad faith people are who attempt to bastardize and steal these other cultural traditions to normalize their own struggles.

Right. Is the sworn virgins. This is in the Balkans, especially in the Albanian region. And these are biological females who adopt a, a lifelong virginity and adopt male roles, dress roles, rights, et cetera. The problem is, is that. We have no records of anyone ever doing this because they feel they’re in the wrong body.

Okay? Why do women do this in Balkans tradition? Because women can’t own property in the Balkans tradition. And so women do this so that they can own property or be the heir of the family or escape an arranged marriage they don’t want to do. We have plenty of records of that. And so, let’s go into the [01:05:00] Jewish play.

The guy’s name is Kaus Ben Kaus. At no time in history, he wrote in 1286 to 1328 in Providence, France. And at no point from then into the year 2000 did anyone think this poem was about something other than a joke. Okay? And it was a joke that had meaning to people. The idea how

Simone Collins: did just send you province.

Province

Malcolm Collins: so that, so that people can understand why this would’ve been funny to Jewish people of the time while also sharing a brief message. And it’s a joke about wanting something absurd and not accepting the way that you were born. So literally an inversion of the concept of transness.

Simone Collins: Ah.

Malcolm Collins: Woe to me, my mother that you ever bore a son.

What a great loss in no gain curse. Be the one who announced my name to my father. It’s a boy. The messenger shall be hu [01:06:00] guilty of bloodshed, cursed be he woe to him who has male sons. Upon them, a heavy yoke has been placed of restrictions and constraints. Some in private, some in public. Now remember, this guy’s an Orthodox Jew, so he’s not talking about minor constraints here.

It can be very difficult to be a Jewish man. But of course he’s writing all of this with the knowledge of like, what would’ve made this funny, this line funny, right? And, and explicitly shows that he’s telling a joke Here is any Orthodox Jew would be aware that yes, being a male as an Orthodox Jew means you have a huge number of constraints in your daily life, in how you live, in how you interact with the world.

But obviously women have even more constraints than you. They, they are a different set of constraints, but they are surely greater than those that you are under. And so he’s saying this is a joke. Like, I’m not even considering what it would be like to really be a woman. I just don’t like being me. Right.

And yet [01:07:00] the first few lines of this, and I’m, and I’m cutting out the stuff that doesn’t affirm a trans interpretation of this, just to make it even more so you can see how they see it. Because there’s some of this that’s just fluff. Talking about other stuff really sounds like a modern day trans person.

So a modern trans persons reads that and then doesn’t get the Orthodox Jewish context. That makes this a joke in the second part. Mm-hmm. Sever statues and awesome commandment 613, our father in heaven, if you hear he is talking about all the rules he has to follow. If only you turn me from male to female, if only the craftsman who created me would’ve made me a decent woman, I may today have been a woman wise and smart, spinning with her hands.

And perhaps I would be skilled enough in spinning and I would say, how lucky am I? And then the poem ends with an inversion of a Jewish blessing, basically saying like a satanic curse almost you could think of from the perspective of like blessed are you oh Lord, for has not made me a woman. You can think of this as like if, if you said like all [01:08:00] men but an inversion of this.

Now keep in mind this is an Orthodox Jew. He does not mean to blaspheme God, right? He is saying that all of these ideas would represent an inversion of the natural order, right? That’s, that’s what makes the joke funny. Okay? And he, and again, when he is complaining about being a man, his primary complaint about being a man, even though at one point he does refer to his genitals as like a defect or a blemish the primary complaint is all the rules that he has to follow.

And yet women have more rules and not getting to make his money spinning and yet spinning is a harder thing than what he a rabbi would’ve to do, which is education. Now if we look at what people historically thought of this we’ve got Joseph Koster in 1900. He wrote, quote unquote, a masterpiece of Hebrew satire that passes in review, quote all of the social positions of which men are proud of, and argues that they’re a vanity end quote. He then notes of the entire work that this guy did, and it’s a very long work. He [01:09:00] said this was one of the most humorous parts, right?

So. This was not like a, a, maybe this was satire. Maybe it wasn’t, it was seen as clearly satire until after transness existed as a phenomenon. Now when we’re talking about the Roman Empire the, that I was talking about, we can go to Cassius Dao a Roman senator and historian who was a near contemporary of a gaba.

He lived through the reign and was politically affected by it. He recorded this in Roman History book 80, the, the thing about him wanting to actually change his gender. However, we’ve also already gone through all of the other horrible things that this guy did that could have been exaggerations.

I mean, you could just say, okay, they’re exaggerating about him to make him look bad because he killed a bunch of people, which he did, and he did a lot of blasphemous stuff. He tried to change Roman religion to a new religion. So people really, really, really hated him. But either you accept that the only real trans.

Individual we have in history is one of history’s greatest monsters, or we accept that a guy [01:10:00] that tried to change the religion of Rome had a lot of people with a motivation to make stuff up about him, to make him look bad. And talking about bad emperors was in Roman tradition as a historian, as being effeminate because they would often do this.

Mm-hmm. It was like shorthand for, and this is how, you know, he was bad and, and, and not acting with, with good action.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Sort of common, like, I guess maybe the modern analogy of like, well, he had an affair with, or like molested one of his aides. But this is just the Roman version of it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah.

Simone Collins: Right.

I think there’s kind of like a, a common ring of truth to it. I mean, there were plenty of emperors who had their, you know, stable of male lovers.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, this guy had a, this guy had such a stale of male lovers. He was well known for he opened the bass to the Roman public so that he could walk around the bass and look at people.

And then he even had specialized servants that would go to the bass like every day or something. Recruit and worked for whichever men were the most well endowed and [01:11:00] bring them back to him.

Simone Collins: Oh God bless. He just own just like sine Maxwell. Yeah. That’s great.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. He was amazing. He was sort of a, a debauchery maxor, like that was Yeah.

His its core thing seemed to be maximized debauchery, extremely as you can it. Mm-hmm. If you see our life of a byte episode, maybe this is a, a true convergent example of maybe something like the life of valence. Right. But to continue, when did transness appear? If we don’t see it at any point in human history or in any other culture, the first thing that we can see that looks anything like modern transness was Felds lab in around 1910.

So okay, but before the 1920s where he had 17 detailed cases and this was in Germany and then the Nazis came in and they burned down all his stuff. And after this, as far as I’m aware, there is not a single known case. A trans individual until 1952 [01:12:00] after the Christine Jorgensen media explosion.

So,

Simone Collins: Christine Jor, the name sounds familiar. Should I know it?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. She, well, she was a media phenomenon. Born George Jorgensen, 26-year-old American exit GI underwent male to female sex reassignment. Oh. In Denmark. And when he returned to the US, there was the XGI becomes blonde beauty sometimes referred to as XGI becomes blonde bombshell.

That, that went around and all the tabloids and everything like that. Den. Okay.

Simone Collins: Christina. I got, was it pulled off? That’s the real question.

Malcolm Collins: Well, the point is, is that the

news acted like it was both pulled off in something you could aspire to. And then if you look at. The guy who is seen with re Benjamin, the, the next guy to build a, a lab, Harry Benjamin.

This was he, he built a lab in the, I wanna say, oh yes. His landmark book came out, the Transsexual phenomenon in 1966. [01:13:00] So, almost 10 years after the Christine Jorgensen case. And he said to Christine Jorgensen, this is a guy who wrote the book on this, who started the first lap.

Simone Collins: He felt bad.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It passes pretty well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So I can see how that individual made this look glamorous enough to a lot of people who are looking to reinvent themselves Totally. Who are looking for a sense of control like you. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Speaker 22: I also wanna point out that this case really shows that America is not culturally reflexively anti-trans. I haven’t been able to find a single newspaper article on this case that was negative. It’s all stuff like nature’s error Forces Girl to Live as Boy or XGI, blonde Bombshell Beauty. . People only became anti-trans.

You take that JK Rowling or something like that. After interacting with the trans community and the way that they decided to use these particular privileges that were granted to them,

I.

Malcolm Collins: So this is what the guy who [01:14:00] literally started. The lab that all of the modern trans movement grew out of.

Well, him and Joe Money, they worked alongside each other. I’m trying not to treat this negatively. But Joe Money was operating at the same time. If you’re unfamiliar with his story. He took children, lied about them being able to change their gender by raising them as another gender, forced them to sleep with each other in front of them for lied that they now adopted the new gender that they had gone into.

One of them unli themselves. He hid that. Then he started a clinic that did this to thousands of other children of ruining their lives. Really a genuinely psychopathic human being, like one of history’s greatest villains. But if we say, okay, he’s not the source of the trans movement, this Benjamin Guy is right.

Well, what Benjamin said was, indeed, Christine, without you, probably none of this would’ve come to happen. So what he’s saying is in all of his interviews, everybody cites her as the reason they decided to transition. And then that snowballed into a wider phenomenon. Now, this Christine [01:15:00] person, did they genuinely have gender dysphoria?

They might have had some super rare something or another, but when you consider, and you look at society today and you’re seeing like 1.5% of people identify this way, what we can say is that is not something you see in history. It’s a modern phenomenon. And this is very important because if it’s a modern phenomenon and this very high on alive rate, this very high ideation rate that you see with this, this very high depression rate you see with this are tied.

To this personal way of dealing with specific, I might even say autistic urges. Let’s say it’s a, some version of like psychological urge that certain peoples get around body dysmorphia. It turns out that the correct way to mitigate the harm from this is to tone down exposure to people. That means exposure in the school [01:16:00] systems.

That means exposure through speakers. I, I know it’s sad, but the harm, and, and as Simone 100% believed, I am not influenced by culture when I’m doing severe calorie restriction. This is a totally me thing. It’s not because I saw somebody else do it. When you have whatever this condition is, and I think that it is the same condition when you have whatever this condition is you are particularly resistant towards accepting.

This fact, and this is why I, I tried to bring all this evidence together in this episode along with somebody who suffered an analogous condition so that people who are suffering this can can, can maybe like just get enough evidence all at once that they can break through and finally get to the other side and be like, oh my God, this is really not part of the natural human condition.

And as strong as it feels to me, it is not real. And it is a, it [01:17:00] is hurting me to engage with it in this way. Anybody who, who’s heard me or seen my history or goes through my history of comments, they know I am not approaching it like this because I am bigoted against trans people, right? Like I don’t I’m not like angry at trans people over anything.

I have no reason to like, dislike trans people at a personal level. I have had trans friends. I was in the GSA as a kid, right? I fought for when, when I had a significantly smaller platform, but I fought for trans people being accepted in society before I knew how people were going to end up using this as a weapon to hurt women.

Okay? Second. And when I say as a weapon to hurt women, if you’re unfamiliar with how this is happening, I’ll just broadly lay this out for you. You know, in school, if you grew up before this happened, how there was that kid who was a complete sex pest and like liked, I remember at my school there were the kid who was famous for being caught masturbating outside the women’s dorms while eating fried chicken.

Just like [01:18:00] com Beast kid, by the way too. Oh no. Just like complete wobbly sex fest who doesn’t respect other people’s boundaries. Do you not think that if you told him, Hey, if you say you identify as a woman, you won’t be punished in the same way that he wouldn’t attempt to take advantage of that?

Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, it’s a no brainer.

Malcolm Collins: Of course, you,

Simone Collins: you’d be crazy not to. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You are giving these sorts of sex pests, this tool. Okay. And it is unfortunate that the people who get caught up in this like autistic version of it, that Simone had. Are dragged down because of this or that they can’t, well, it’d probably be better if they didn’t have their, their toy anyway, because it still seems to hurt them as well.

It seems to not be the best way it seems to be telling an somebody with anorexia to identify as an anorexic. And obviously that’s not a good thing to do that’s gonna make this like the Pro Anna movement. It’s like we normalize pro Anna. People don’t know. That’s the movement that is trying to normalize and glamorize anorexia.

And like, we shouldn’t be shamed for this and we should, you know, be who we [01:19:00] are. And it would be fine. Like, and obviously I’m the type of person if you could take a pill and just become a woman, whatever, right? If, if it didn’t have all these negative effects, I wouldn’t care. I’m not out here because like from a Christian perspective, I don’t think they should be doing this.

I’m not out here because some trans person tried to ruin my life or cancel me or something like this. I’m not out here because I was personally harassed by a trans person or something like this.

Simone Collins: Well, you care about human flourishing and when you see that there’s something that just clearly is nerfing people at best and at worst, destroying and ending their lives in horrible ways.

You wanna speak up about it?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’m, I am out here because the preponderance of evidence that we have access to now unfortunately does not make it look as if and, and like we have evidence at the level of an entire country now banning puberty blockers at, at the level of the uk. That’s, that’s like the, the, the quality of a study at that level is [01:20:00] enormous.

Like that can’t be fake, that can’t be edged. We just know that people are not unliving themselves because they’re not able to get access to this. And now that we know that. We have to say, okay, we need to start rethinking all of this. And that’s unfortunate and people can be like, yeah, I just, I, I hope that dev comes to the light on this.

Because in the past I really respected him as an intellectual, and I know that right now he’s sort of going through a hard time with his followers because he’s been kind of ideologically captured by, a certain friend group is, is my guess that he’s not able to see that, like new evidence is out there now, right?

Like when in, in the episode he said something like, and we know that this is the best solution to lower like, unli rates for people who have this. And it’s like actually that’s been broadly disproven at this point, both from the uk, the country level source, us finding out that mainstream trans clinics were hiding information at the Travis dot Kyle [01:21:00] Case and the WPATH file release.

And the studies that have been used to argue this being very poorly conducted and by hugely ideologically captured institutions, we actually went through an episode. We have one episode where we go through all these studies and the ones that people are always citing they were done by a clinic that made its primary source of income by helping people gender transit.

Like, come on Dev, you’re not stupid. You must be able to see that a country level data set at the level of the UK is a better source of data than a clinic that makes its income off of this and is dependent on it continuing to happen. And like Joe Money would have to admit that they were monsters and hurt a ton of children because they couldn’t admit this earlier.

And I think we argued that’s why he didn’t. But anyway, thought Simone,

Simone Collins: I think this is, it’s interesting and it’s important, and [01:22:00] I don’t know, I mean my general take is in the past, people were able to express various forms of what people can now refer to as gender. Like either the way they want to. Bang other people or get themselves off or dress or style themselves.

No. Or relate to other people. Like they just dealt with it and they didn’t force other people to conform with it. And this new version, whatever it is, is, is most uniquely different to me and that it does, and I agree that pretending that this thing has been around forever is inaccurate at best. And I, I also had no idea the extent to which we’d been gaslit about it.

Like the, there are, except like two-Spirit people, right? Like two-Spirit. Yeah. Because that was just, I don’t know. I. I, I, I, I’ve become a lot more incredulous, but I still figured, like, I don’t know. That kind of makes sense, I [01:23:00] guess. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well there’s a lot of American Native American tribes out there.

Presumably at least one had a dedicated third gender role that was mm-hmm. More similar to transness than similar to being a gay twink.

Simone Collins: Yeah. It just seems so screwed up that people would make that up. It, it, it, yeah. Anyway, so this, this has been enlightening and I appreciate your looking into it.

Malcolm Collins: What was, what’s cooler or you know, more I, whatever you wanna think of.

But more pathetic is the secondary thing they decided to add to this made up role, which is, and they were treated as spiritual guides for their communities.

Simone Collins: Well, right? Yes. And they were in some way, like spiritually mystically and morally superior. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. Like you see the narcissism on display there.

Right. You know, I didn’t anything about that. Oh gosh. An invention role. And then they invent importance to it. They can’t just say, oh, it was an alternate role in this society. Right? Mm-hmm. And keep in mind for most of these other societies that we have access [01:24:00] to when they were trans they, like when they fed this, it wasn’t trans.

It almost no society. Do you have trans? Of all the ones we went through, normally it’s a third gender and normally it’s a discriminated third gender. Hmm. So, it’s, it’s just you need to break this for the people who are trying to be, and I want to believe that Dev is genuinely trying to be intellectually honest in the way he’s approaching this.

And that he does wants what’s best for people. And that if he just had access to all of the information, he would change his mind. Because I think most sane people would, I even think most sane trans people would.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think so. I mean, maybe, I don’t know. I, again, like even per your argument, the correct response I should be making is, oh, like my excessive exercising and calorie restriction was in response to a [01:25:00] social trend that I was surrounded by.

Whereas I feel like I had a very different experience, but like. I I, so I should be, I should be saying that. Whereas I don’t, I don’t feel that way. So

Malcolm Collins: yeah. This

Simone Collins: is, I’m very, this is why

you’re

Malcolm Collins: such a good case for this.

Simone Collins: I know, I know. So, I’m, I’m, maybe people in the comments can explain this to me this phenomenon,

Malcolm Collins: but this is what’s very important about this phenomenon.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: If it happens to you and you’re not one of these just sex PEs who’s using it for cover. Sure. It doesn’t feel like you caught a social phenomenon. It feels like a decision you made for yourself and an obsession.

Simone Collins: Oh, because I didn’t, I didn’t actively choose to do it. I kept doing it ‘cause it made me feel a little better.

But I mean, yeah. Presumably that’s

Malcolm Collins: a, a tool

Simone Collins: for

Malcolm Collins: control

Simone Collins: trans, but I feel like what’s, what happened with trans stuff in schools, especially with young women who are transitioning, was this did happen with friend clusters. I didn’t have friends who did this. So

Malcolm Collins: Right, and that might be a completely separate phenomenon.

My, my [01:26:00] guess is the trans community is predominantly four groups. One group has this form of dysphoria that you had. They, they do not need a lot of priming to begin to exhibit transness. They

Simone Collins: yeah, no, that, that one makes sense. Where like, you feel dysphoria, you hate your body, and then someone mentions like, oh, maybe you have this, you can take this pill and make it all stop.

And that is very appealing. That would be the version of transit that I fell into, would’ve fallen into. Then there’s the other groups that are like, well, all your friends are doing it. And so in the similar way that like cutting spread or that, that, that well this,

Malcolm Collins: I, I, I’d flush out this secondary category a bit more than just all your friends are doing it.

Mm-hmm. You’re going through puberty, you feel uncomfortable with your body. You’re going through a lot of changes you don’t like and somebody says there is an out. And, and there’s a, that’s the first true.

Simone Collins: Describing

Malcolm Collins: they will affirm you and tell you that, you know, your, your body is good, that you are good, that you should be accepted, and they will never criticize you as long as you go along with him.

And this can be very appealing. And you [01:27:00] even hear some people like Zian the head the guy who founded the trans murder cult Zian said that he went through gender transition. ‘cause he was afraid of going through pub.

Simone Collins: They, they were zian, he was Zz

Malcolm Collins: Zzz, whatever he was afraid of going through Puby.

So I think that this is like a cluster of ideas here. It’s a bit of a cultural contagion and a bit of a good like mimetic virus. And for these people, they are partially aware that you know, it was in part influenced by a friend group, right? Now they are less true trans. And I would put the, the, the version of trans that’s more like anorexia.

It’s probably the truest form of trans. There is.

Simone Collins: I disagree, I think because, no, no, I think that’s very different because that’s, I. That’s not a desire to be the different gender that’s feeling in general, like a general body dysmorphia and then falling into a common solution that’s presented to people who show body dysmorphia.

Like, you know, because now there’s this preponderance of people who are [01:28:00] like, oh, you’re trans. Whereas before it would always be something else like, oh, you just need to power through it. Or like, I don’t know, talk to God more. You know, like people used to give other solutions. Yeah. So I don’t actually see ‘em as trans.

I think there’s a different group of people. That falls into the culture and, and believes in it for that reason. Maybe also they’re coated on by it,

Malcolm Collins: the other two groups in the trans community, other than the ones who have something analogous to anorexia. And there’s the ones who have something that is, you know, the, the, the, you’ll have a community that will accept you.

You’re going through pube, you’re uncomfortable with your body. And, and here’s how you both get social acceptance and, and are comfortable with your body. It’s one simple trick. And then the next group, because I’m gonna say there’s four core groups here. These are the groups. This group I would just call the sex pests.

These are the people who realize that they can use this to gain access to women’s faces. And when people are like, no trans person does this, and then I ask you, okay, I, let’s say no real trans person does this. [01:29:00] Do you think a cis person, a cis male. Would have such low morals and such a voracious sexual appetite that they would do it.

Of course, they’re like, well, of course some cis males would do. And I’m like, well, those cis males are now using the trans identity, right? You could say, oh, cis males are terrible, but they’re using your identity to do this. The, the guy jacking off outside the girl’s dorm or the guy you know, this seems to very clearly be the case of it was Leah Thomas was the swimmer, right?

Who kept flashing people in the restroom. And then there was a bunch of weird porn stuff with her when, when that was all leaked.

Speaker 23: By the way, you’re not familiar with this. Leah Thomas had a secret Instagram account where they would, , frequently like posts and images that were explicitly tied to a GP related content, eeg, , content that suggested that trans people are only trans people because they were turned on by. Acting like women.

, And , it makes it very clear that Leah Thomas was a GP . This was a sexual fetish for [01:30:00] them. , And this is not, it’s some outsider accusing them of this. This is them saying, yeah, that’s why I’m doing this. That’s what turns me on.

Speaker 25: Like when I advocated for trans rights back in the day. I assumed I was not just advocating for the rights of flashers who wanted to violate women’s autonomy, , violate women’s consent. And so when I saw somebody very clearly doing this and the trans community not being like, oh, that person isn’t us.

That person doesn’t stand for us, but instead doubling down. No, that is what we’re fighting for. I was like, oh, I’ve been used. I was a patsy and. I think that there’s a point where somebody like Dev needs to be like, am I being used to protect flashers who want to violate women’s autonomy?

Speaker 17: Ah!

Malcolm Collins: And [01:31:00] then there was the and, and no, this was before she went through her surgery, right? Like this, she just appears to have been a sex pe. And, and, and these are the people who in prison are like, ah, I’m trans now, because they get access to the women’s prison and then they gripe a bunch of women.

And this has happened multiple times. You know, and, and everybody must realize that this is like an actual, like the most problematic group. And then the, the final group, which is like. Almost as problematic as that group is. These are predominantly men, but sometimes also women who seem to get aroused by convincing other people to transition.

It’s a power fetish for them. We’ve seen this in the trans Maxine community is very clearly partially about this. We’ve seen this in the giggle and goon files. We’ve seen this in some other parts of the trans community. And I loop them in with the other people. I guess it’s a separate category of this, the, the, a FBS or whatever who have some sort of fetish tied to this.

But it’s not about converting other people. And then this, that’s this other part. It’s this very aggressive and [01:32:00] predatory part of the community that, that is specifically about I, and keep in mind people are like, why would somebody want this? Well, if you look at their own writings talking about it, because there have been, they’re like, dude, like if I can convince a young boy to get on puberty blockers, I get like a prepubescent child for like the next 10 years.

You know, like these people are truly debauched, but this is what they say in their private message boards. Right. And I mean, it makes sense, right? Like they found a way to make EPDA fi file this legal and keep in mind that individuals like this you know, have, well we won’t, we, we won’t get into the Harvey Milk situation.

But

Simone Collins: there’s too many cans of worms here.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right. Any thoughts on short, fat otake dev leaflet? The debate, anything

Simone Collins: leaflet can do? Nothing wrong in my view. I, she just, she comes at everything from both. A place of intelligence, but also humility. I, I, yeah. [01:33:00] It would be shocking to me that she,

Malcolm Collins: no, that’s what the AI review of her debate kept saying.

It was like, throughout the debate, it is noted that she appeared very kind and understanding and wanting to like, understand their perspective and that she’s

Simone Collins: so respectful. Yeah. Even when she like goes over other streams, she like waits for the the, the person’s sentence to stop before commenting.

She’s just so kind.

Malcolm Collins: So debate was that leaflet was overly conciliatory and didn’t want to interrupt the person. So they kept ranting at various points. Oh

Simone Collins: yeah. That, yeah. That, that would,

Malcolm Collins: that’s that very leaflet. Yeah,

Simone Collins: because she’s, she has courtesy. Oh my gosh. No one knows what, how to do. I don’t know how to do that anymore.

I interrupt you all the time. I’m terribly rude. I’m really sorry about that. Anyway, I love you.

Malcolm Collins: Love you too.

Simone Collins: And yeah. Do you want me. Though, have we?

Malcolm Collins: No, we had, we did it once.

Simone Collins: We did. Oh God. Never again. Never again. A a lot of the pe I I, I share you’re surprised by the people who are like me, [01:34:00] like AI is not gonna work.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my, it’s literally we’re racing so many jobs right now.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, what do you think is happening right now? I, I think I, some people were like, oh, the unit economics don’t work out.

Like the, the energy’s not gonna work. Well, you know, we’re gonna blow up the data centers. Like all these things, there are answers for these things. I don’t,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. A automated drone swarms cost less than you and your entire army that wants to blow up automated drone swarms. If people don’t,

Simone Collins: dude, literally one hotel night and your average United States hotel costs less than you.

If we’re talking about the rate of a hit per by like a Mexican, it’s like $250 to, unless the price has gone up to kill someone, if you wanna hire someone in Mexico to do it. But maybe those are the in Mexico rates, not the in United States rates. I haven’t, you know, haven’t checked recently. Gotta get back on [01:35:00] that market.

Other people being like, well, you know, with, with this kind of wealth divide, like there just won’t be anyone left to buy anything. But then I, I think a lot of people don’t realize that already now half of consumer spending is being made by the top 10% of earners. Like yeah, we’re already, we’re already mostly there.

There’s a reason why Disneyland is becoming insanely expensive. It’s because they’ve given up on normal people and they’re just charging a ton of money to the really wealthy people who are still spending tons of money. It’s a, it’s happened, it has happened. So you know what you gonna do, what you gonna do?

Get a parcel of land, get food stores get used to rice and beans. At least [01:36:00] rice and beans is so freaking good. I think you don’t like rice and beans. I love rice and beans.

Malcolm Collins: But yeah, I was, I was, I, I just am so shocked by the people who are like, AI can’t do human work. And I’m like, I literally have already fired multiple teams because AI has replaced them.

Like,

Simone Collins: oh, I mean, to, to be fair there are are some things where, you know, we’re still hiring specialists to deal with plumbing problems and

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, yeah. There are some things and in regards to people who are like, well, AI can’t do human motor control work really well, like walking around and stuff like that, that, that is true.

And the, and the main reason is and I talk about this in the comments, it’s because we’re approaching it wrong. If you, if you, no, but

Simone Collins: also, like, are you aware of what’s going on with optimists? Like entire Tesla factories have been repurposed to building these, these humanoid robots that actually are pretty dexterous.

It’s just that they’re not on the

Malcolm Collins: market

Simone Collins: yet. Right.

Malcolm Collins: But more broadly, the problem that we have here and the problem that AI experts have here is, I have explained in other videos that the human [01:37:00] brain, particularly the cerebral cortex, appears to operate like a collection of token predictors. And there’s a lot of research on this.

You can watch your episodes where we go over all that research. But what’s really important to note is if the AI we are using today arrived in an architectural convergence with our cerebral cortex which it appears they had, they are naturally going to be bad at. Fine movement because that is not handled by our cerebral cortex that is handled by our cerebellum, which is one a completely separate organ practically.

Oh yeah. And two architecturally entirely different. So what we’re likely gonna want to do for AI movement related stuff is either hardcoded, direct pathways that ideas are sent from the cerebral cortex, like collection of token predictors to these and then carried out automatically. Mm-hmm. Which will likely be drawing from the works of companies like Boston Dynamics and stuff like that.[01:38:00]

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean also just keep in mind like, just to like text here, for example, like his motor control. Even our kids, you know, like they, they’re any parent who’s gone through the process of teaching a kid or helping a kid develop fine motor control, like hold a pen or, you know, type on a keyboard or draw.

We’ll understand that even for someone who has all the parts built in really well, it takes a long time to figure that out.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Another thing is I think people really miss the ball on this. They’re dismissing open AI as just a text model or a text prediction model which shows a, a fundamental misunderstanding of like how larger AI systems work.

So if you’re talking about agents, you know, these are things that can do emails, do phone calls, do coding, everything like that. Like all of the advanced stuff generate images when they want to generate video, when they want to. The core of their thought is always a text-based [01:39:00] model. The, the text-based AI models are always the core brain of an AI because they are the least expensive way to send large amounts of information into the future of the AI, basically.

Mm-hmm. And so this idea of, oh, that’s just a text. Like what, whatever, it’s just a text model. It’s like, what are you talking about? Like, it’s, it’s like you, you see, a company trying to get in the, the cutting edge of, of cars and think that cars are gonna change the way that transportation works and you go, they just make engines.

What did, that’s just a simple engine. Like all of the fancy stuff in your Ferrari is downstream from the engine, right? Everything an agent does is downstream from that simple text model. But anyway, this is afu a fun end into this episode that’s gonna track some to normal right wing bait, right?

All right, I’ll get started on this.

Yeah. ‘cause tomorrow’s leaflet. Oh, [01:40:00] people don’t know. I will be on leaflet’s show tomorrow.

Simone Collins: But you’re gonna run a different episode this morning? Tomorrow?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’ll gonna put this into the different episode.

Simone Collins: Are you going to, oh, okay. Oh, right.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I’m gonna be on leaflet show tomorrow at, so

Simone Collins: you mean today?

Malcolm Collins: Today, today at, at 7:00 PM I think we’re gonna start so you’re gonna get me at a completely different, different time zone, which will be fun. We’ll see how that goes. But I’m, I’m looking for, it’ll be my first time doing like live streaming. Was like a, a, a somebody’s fan base interacting and I don’t know how I feel about that.

I’m a little worried

Simone Collins: You did it a little bit when you had that debate with that guy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but I didn’t have time to be reading the stream. I do it when, when we go on Ed, ed Dutton’s show, he does it. But like, I don’t care what Ed Dutton’s audience, they, they’re just too different from our audience in my mind.

Like,

Simone Collins: ah, so you’re nervous about this one because you actually respect her audience. And [01:41:00] that’s the.

Malcolm Collins: Like Ed Dutton’s comment section was full of people trying to determine if you were a Jew or not by your nose shape. Right. Like, I’m like, her audience isn’t gonna be that somo.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I don’t think so. No.

I imagine they’re pretty cool. So they’re not,

Malcolm Collins: anyway, not that I don’t like Ed Dutton. I, I like him. I like it’s kind.

Simone Collins: We love him. We love him. It’s just it’s, but

Malcolm Collins: he does attract him a, a certain, like, like he’s, he’s, he’s less we’re, we’re pretty big on our show about being like, if you’re just like a generic racist, we don’t want you here.

Simone Collins: Well, no, like the, the Jew comments are very much like our, our kids for example, like their go-to is poop jokes. Titan’s. A poopy head. Toasties. A poopy head. They use our Alexa smart devices to say Poop. Poop. Poop. Poop, poop. It’s all poop jokes. And it’s very reductive and it’s just their go-to and it’s like they’re little inside.

This is, I’m joking language.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And

Simone Collins: I feel like Jew comments online are like, that is like the adult version of poop jokes where they’re just like, [01:42:00] juice, juice, Jews, Jew, Jew, Jew.

Malcolm Collins: No, you’re wrong.

Simone Collins: Really

Malcolm Collins: there are people who make jokes like that. And for a wild jokes like that have become common. Okay.

But now there’s this genuine community online that’s just like, my personality is, I hate Jews and I’m a generic racist. Right? Like,

Simone Collins: some people are polling some people just,

Malcolm Collins: and if you, and if you

Simone Collins: expression,

Malcolm Collins: constantly signal on your show yeah. This is not for that audience. So like he does really high quality content.

He just doesn’t also regularly be like, oh, and if you just hate on Jews, I think you’re stupid. Right. Obviously Jews have problems, which we’ve talked about in detail, but there’s a difference between saying that and just being like, like complete crash out mode, you know?

Simone Collins: Yeah, which I think is hard for people because for example, I think one of our top performing videos is like the Jewish iq, myth one.

Oh. And of course the people who freaking hate Jews were like, oh, this is gold. And then they were like so [01:43:00] betrayed and then we lost all those subscribers and then they were like, oh, they don’t hate Israel. What’s wrong with them? Familiar. So you know. You can’t win.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, I think you can win. I think this is actually something I was talking to you about today, but like we hold really weird religious beliefs that I think if they came out later, or if we came to them later in our streaming career would’ve been very disqualifying of us in conservative intellectual spaces.

Yeah.

But we led wisdom them. And we’ve been very consistent and logical about them in a way that I don’t think people find them particularly off putting in the same way that ‘cause it’s very interesting that, that, like in our episode recently about dev short slash short Fat Otaku versus what’s her name?

Simone Collins: Oh, shoe on head.

Malcolm Collins: Shoe on head, shoe on head that the Wright loves shoe on head and has mostly turned against short fat Otake and short fat Otake has moved. Or, or stayed on the left in areas that seem odd to [01:44:00] us. But the, the, the she wanted is fundamentally much more of a leftist than he is, and, and yet she’s forgiven for it and he’s not.

I think it’s because she started with these physi, the positions that she has that are discordant and she focuses on them from a logical perspective.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think you’re right.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, love you to testimon. The comments on today of the Shuan Head video were fun.

Simone Collins: They were

Malcolm Collins: doing really well.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

I’m glad that, that a lot of people like Shuan head. It seems like a lot of people really like what they call nineties era Democrats. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: well, I mean that’s, that’s the White House now what, like Elon, RFK, Trump, JD Vance, who do you, who do you think these people are? Right? Like this is our party now.

Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I dunno, pointed out the, the purity, the, the, the faction on the right that’s like, oh, we need to focus on like purity culture. We need to focus on extracting everything. We need to focus on all acting the same way. I, I, I point this out and I’ll keep pointing out. They ideologically [01:45:00] have much closer with the left disaligned Islamists than they have with any faction that holds power on the right.

And they don’t really have a place in the modern right. And do have a place in the modern left. And they found it.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Right. Like they, they regularly sit down and talk with Islamists, right? Like they they have a side and a place that already accepts them. There’s like not even a reason, even from an and, and people are like, well, you could get their votes.

And it’s like, unlikely, right? Like, they’re not a very they, they put out insane demands that like, would hurt us, prevent our party from winning. But the left doesn’t have any cost to meeting the demands, right? Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Because the left doesn’t actually have to follow through with the things that it says or promises.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Nor do they need to be coherent or cross achievable.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, because you can just keep blaming the, when you have an external locus of control themed party, you [01:46:00] could always blame someone else for things not working out and never take personal responsibility. And what’s so interesting about.

The Trump administration right now is taking personal responsibility for very controversial things, very unpopular things. Yeah. And not blaming other people, not being like, well, so and so made me do it, or thi you know, this is, you know, it, it’s just like, no, I’m gonna do this. I’m sorry. It’s a little bit tough.

It’s gonna be a little bit tougher, a little bit longer. This is gonna be worth it in the long run, even if you don’t think so. I don’t care because I think this is the best and it’s a very different kind of,

Speaker 27: He’s playing his music. Wow. Tex, thanks.

Yeah. Text toss. Master Tex. Look at the phones. Look at the camera

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe