These Myths About Women and Money Keeps You Struggling - And The are FALSE

I guess our own personal ambition is beyond the confines of the way it's been sold to us or

told to us, been positioned as how it should be. Particularly for women, I think the conversation

around ambition is so often framed as a trade-off between your public life and your private life,

between your personal and your professional. And I even see even in like very progressive

circles this implicit assumption that to succeed in one domain is to give up another. But that's

only position that way for women. This is not position this way for men.

This is the brown way to money podcast where women of color and business find their financial

independence. Where do you think is that key element for women to pay attention now in the next

decade to build wealth? I think the most important thing we need to do is contextualize our own

experiences within the experiences of all women or all women of color or the other larger

contextual groups that we are all respectively part of because what I see happening right now

is that we have all been so conditioned to internalize what happens to us as a personal failing.

And that is because we have been brought up on these messages that our biggest barriers to

opportunity are ourselves, our willingness to ask for more or even save or invest. But what we

have learned over the course of certainly the last decade, but a much broader history is that

the forces that are happening beyond us are much much greater than what we can they have much more

influence than what we do as individuals. Now this is not to say that there's nothing we can do

on an individual basis to improve our prospects and certainly to build wealth, but it is to acknowledge

the influence and how big that influence is of these external factors and to again contextualize

what is happening to us within this broader cultural, political, institutional framework so that we're

not turning inward self-blaming and then disengaging because we feel shame or because we feel like

we're just not up to the challenge or we think that it says something about who we are or what we're

capable of in terms of what we can build or sustain. But rather we connect with other people who

are going through similar experiences to understand that this is something that we are experiencing

collectively as women and that collective experience is something we can also leverage in fighting

back because when we are not isolated and turning inward with self-blame, we can reach out to

other people who are sharing our experiences. We can find their support we need, we can find

tools we can find resources and we can come together to take action against some of these things

that feel beyond our control whether that's policies that are being passed maybe not on a federal

level but certainly you know in the most micro level like within our own workplaces, within our

own communities, within our own localities, the town, cities, right. When I say that I'm talking

about these bigger systemic ideas, these bigger systemic influences and how much we have underestimated

their impact, people often think well you know if it's just the system what can I really do about it.

But a system is operating at so many levels you know it's operating at the scale of an interpersonal

relationship between bosses and mentors and husbands and wives and friends partners. It's happening

at that scale, it's happening at an institutional scale which is like a workplace or school or

community and it's then happening at the larger political and cultural level. So just because you're

not operating at like the highest macro scale doesn't mean there's nothing you can do at these

other levels and I think the process of affecting change at the bigger levels really requires us

reconnecting to that broader shared experience at this at these smaller levels at the interpersonal

levels that building our communities and realizing that what it's going to take to build our wealth

isn't just about what we're doing individually but how we're working together in community to push

back against these bigger forces. I like to double done on that what you just said that

the system tends to make wealth building and financial problems an individual problem an

individual problem that is a sprinkle with shame and guilt if you don't know better.

What have you found and all of the research that you have done and threw you on book that has been

the biggest systematic narrative that affects the most at an individual level for women. I just

want to make sure I really understand what you're asking is the question what is like the biggest

systemic thing that is impeding our ability to grow up with the narratives. So things like the biggest

myth of women are not good with money. Right so that narrative beyond this the systematic things

that we know we have right. Yeah go ahead. Yeah I would say that so much of what enables

these kinds of wealth inequalities to continue reproducing themselves really relies on a lot of

myth making. So myths like you said this idea that women aren't just good with money that's just

one of them. I couldn't say what the biggest myth is and all of this but I think it's a general theme

that women aren't confident women don't invest women don't care about wealth women aren't

interested in pursuing high-paying careers you know I could go on and on and on but all of this

is a level of myth making that is not actually grounded in data the data does and this is something

I dig into in detail in my book it's it's a lot of going through each of these arguments

and showing people actually that's not true but more than that to your point is what do these

myths enable and there's a really great study that looks specifically at the myths that women

don't negotiate their salaries as much as their male peers now this is very commonly assumed

even though it has not been true in the United States for just about two decades women have been

more likely to negotiate their salaries than their male peers for about two decades at this point

and yet the myth that women don't ask is still chronically used to justify gender pay inequity.

Women just aren't paid as much because they don't ask for more so not only is that not true

but the researchers found that people who believe that myth are also more likely to blame women

for their own underpayment and they are less likely to support policies and legislation that are

proven to reduce gender pay gaps like pay transparency initiatives so I think that research really

really speaks to the power and the harm of these myths because what happens when you buy into

this idea that women's greatest barrier to wealth building to economic opportunity not just women

everyone who's marginalized when you buy into this myth that the inability to build wealth is an

individual problem and an individual problem alone you become more likely to double down on

the policies that ensure those outcomes reproduce themselves because if you don't have

pay a commitment to pay equity if you don't have a commitment to transparency and true performance

based rewards and not ideas of performance based rewards then you will continue to reproduce

the same inequality as we've experienced even as other more explicit bans or restrictions fall

away and again this is something I really document in detail in my book I just I know I'm going

on and on and on but I want to give a quick example of this there's a really great paper where

they were hiring for the role of a police chief and there were applicants and the study participants

had to decide okay who was going to get hired for this role of police chief and they would compare a

male applicant and a female applicant and what would happen is if the applicant had a college degree

and they were a man then the study participants would say well we really should hire this guy not

because he is a man but because he has a college degree so he's more qualified but when it was

reversed and it was the woman who had the college degree what the study participants did would say

well we should hire the guy even though he has less education because college education really

isn't really relevant for this job and so we need someone who has like the street smarts and so

this is a really good example of the way inequality reproduces itself while kind of

masquerading as a meritocracy and how you can continue to generate the same unequal outcomes even

as you don't have people admitting to the fact that they're discriminating but they clearly are

what do you think are some of those three steps that women should be not only paying attention but

actually kind of like aiming to do towards reclaiming that agency with money because when I talk

about financial trauma the first thing that comes up is like avoidance well I don't look at my bank account

or well to your point of women to ask enough for salary negotiations what would I go to my

boss so that they can reject me or you know we have this thing as an entrepreneur is that women

tend to go after the next certification so that they can justify that they want to increase their

prices right what do you think are three things that for the next decade women should be paying

attention more instead of leaning into the reasons why not to do it so that we can kind of like

flip that script and even though that we are experiencing financial trauma and even though that we

know we are against a system the would take time to change we still can reclaim that agency with

money so I'll just say disclaimer I'm not a therapist yes what I will say from you that

it will but but the conclusions that I really came to in this book in terms of like what we're

getting wrong about what empowerment looks like is again coming back to this idea of this idea

that it's an internal and individual process as opposed to what I think it requires which is for

women to actually flip the script and instead of thinking about like everything that they're experiencing

as the outcome of something that's happening from within them to flip the script and say okay what is

how is this outcome being reproduced because of the environment around me and instead of just

looking inwards what do I need to change in the environments around me or what can I change in

the environments around me so that I'm not continuing to experience this same reinforcement

of my financial trauma or these or that I'm not exposed to people who are going to reinforce

these nis or who are going to act on them so I break this down in the book again by if you are

enjoying this podcast go ahead and subscribe and share only you can help us grow so I break this

down in the book again by the interpersonal environment friends family partners the institutional

environment workplaces communities education systems and then the broader political and cultural

environment and thinking about operating at all of those different levels so that again even if

you're not rewriting the laws of the place you live you're still feeling a sense of agency and

purpose in curating those environments around you even if it's happening just at the interpersonal

level and I think that's a really powerful way we can reframe what empowerment means is like it's

not something that's only going to come in relationship to myself power is by definition in

relationship to the world around you and your biggest impediments to it particularly for those who

have been marginalized is typically not something that they are personally doing it is that they are

doing the same things as their more privileged peers only to get a different response and so that's

not a problem of inputs that's a problem of a system creating different outputs so how do we change

that environment the second thing is again you can't do this alone not just from a perspective of

the actual actions you take but the support system that you need in order to be able to take what

individual action you are taking right and so one of the things I talk about is that we've kind

of been giving we've kind of been like sold this idea that there's there's two models of womanhood

in modern day there's this idea of like hyper independence where I have to do absolutely everything

myself and I can't rely on anybody or hyper dependence and I think we see this example in really

exemplified on social media today with the trends like the tradwife where it's like I don't want to

everything myself so I'm going to give over all of my agency and just let someone else take

care of me and both of those models I would actually argue are incredibly risky because there is no

diversification whatsoever if you are entirely reliant on yourself that is too much to bear and if

you are entirely reliant on someone else that's too much risk to take and so what I want us to

think about is how do we create more interdependence how do we diversify our sources of not just income

but of meaning of support of relationships friendships community thinking beyond just a

relationship to a job or a relationship to a spouse and thinking about all of the value and

meaning and support we get in the world that extends beyond any single resource like a paycheck

but expands beyond like who can I call on if I lose my job tomorrow and I don't have income and

I can't award anything do I have a network that I that I have built and fostered that I could

go stay with them or do I have someone to call to watch my children if I'm in a pinch you know if

you have not done that work you will not be able to sustain a well-building journey in this

environment because it is we do not have enough of a meaningful economics and social safety net

at least in the United States to be without having community resources and support as well so I

think everyone should really focus a lot more on interdependence and not trying to be either

hyper independent or hyper dependent so that's a second thing my third thing in terms of like

and like dealing with this trauma and and how we move forward I think it's it's to build a vision

of what we think wealth and I guess our own personal ambition is beyond the confines of the way

it's been sold to us or told to us or been been positioned as how it should be particularly

for women I think the conversation around ambition is so often framed as a tradeoff between

your public life and your private life between your personal and your professional and I even see

even in like very progressive circles this implicit assumption that to succeed in one domain

is to give up another but that's only position that way for women this is not position this way for

men no family life and professional life those two things go hand in hand for men and this is

really interesting because it happens across income levels it happens across all forms of identity

but it's really the gender and line where these things are positioned as a tradeoff and mutually

exclusive for women while they're mutually reinforcing for men and so I really think moving toward

the next step is about rejecting the binary framework of trade-offs for those who identify as

women and really thinking more expansively understanding that ambition is not something that has

to be categorized into private versus public and that it can and should be something that is

mutually reinforcing and the reason that it's not isn't typically because of something we're

doing wrong but because we're not given the same supports as our male peers and instead of like

worrying with one another over which version of these trade-offs are the right ones to make I want

us to say why are we being asked to make these trade-offs that our peers are not asked to

and to demand more to demand a more expansive vision of what our ambitions are allowed to be

I think to that point and it's one of the things that I touch the most is ambition being

this bad thing to have especially as Latinos and as a black woman if you are ambitious that is

something wrong with you but it is is this weird concept because you should be or that's the way

that we grew up you should be ambitious enough to get ahead of maybe your family or your circle

but don't be too ambitious because that is brings bad things to you so I love that that's the last

point because it connects perfectly to the way that I see financial independence you cannot have

financial independence if you continue depending on the minions and kind of like words that others

have pointing to your definition of success and independence and ambition as well with that point

how do you envision women building wealth in 10 years from now when I think about the future that

that I hope for for my daughter for all our daughters for all our everyone honestly across gender

identity it's one that's really expansive it's one where we're not operating from a chronic

framework of what do I have to give up to gain some level of stability or rest or fulfillment it's

one in which our basic humanity is always guaranteed and the support system needed for that is

always in place and that is not something that we have to struggle for and that requires wealth

building tactics that are not just grounded in what we personally save it's in what we advocate for

in our communities and what we demand from our politicians certainly from our peers and the kinds

of resources that that they offer us and we offer them and how we show up for one another to ensure

that every single person has a basic standard of care and life that they are entitled to because

they are a human being and that standard doesn't change across identity that standard is guaranteed

no matter who you are and then from there man can you go after your ambitions in a real meaningful

way if you are not chronically operating from a place of fearing the loss of everything because

we are imaginations and our abilities to realize things are so limited by that all of us and I think

that's really a very very sad thing so what I want to see is a future where we are not constrained

individually or collectively by that reality okay did you hear something that you liked in today's

episode if so don't keep it to yourself go ahead right now yes right now before this episode end

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Alejandra Rojas your host and I will see you next week